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My question would be to you
right off the bat is why,
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after so many years
of silence,
3
00:00:23,023 --> 00:00:25,283
never having a media interview
and people have said
4
00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:27,396
that you have given them
interviews in years past
5
00:00:27,444 --> 00:00:30,034
Well, that’s hogwash.
That’s strictly hogwash.
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I’m constantly told
that I, I’m misquoted
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constantly saying
that I said this
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and I said
that that’s not happened.
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So that’s pretty well
established on this.
10
00:00:38,663 --> 00:00:40,833
This is the first time
you’re speaking publicly
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about your case.
12
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Right. I’ve always felt
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that my attorneys
were handling it
14
00:00:45,879 --> 00:00:48,299
and they said to keep a low
profile and stay away from it.
15
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And, uh, in light of all
that has been used
16
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against me in the media,
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they’ve created this fantasy
monster image
18
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and it’s been going on
for the last 12 years
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and I’ve ever had no comment.
20
00:01:01,394 --> 00:01:03,524
And I had no need
to talk to the media
21
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for the simple reason that they
were looking for sensationalism
22
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and they were looking
for the monster.
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When you say fantasy
monster image,
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what are you referring
to by that?
25
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Well, the idea that
I’m a homosexual thrill killer
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and all that, that garbage and
they painted this image of me
27
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that, like
I stroll down the streets
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and stalked young boys
and slaughtered them.
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Hell, if you could see
my schedule, my work schedule,
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you know damn well that I was
never out there.
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Well you, you were
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now, you were indicted,
convicted and sentenced
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on thirty-three counts of
homicide. Is that correct?
34
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That’s correct.
35
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Police digging under a house
in Des Plaines, Illinois,
36
00:02:21,391 --> 00:02:22,981
found four more bodies today.
37
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The owner of the house,
a man named John Wayne Gacy,
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00:02:26,229 --> 00:02:27,479
is suspected of having killed
39
00:02:27,522 --> 00:02:29,572
as many as thirty
two teenage boys
40
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and burying most of them under
and around his house and garage.
41
00:02:32,819 --> 00:02:34,989
But the story, of course,
is far from over.
42
00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:37,950
Investigators know there
are bodies or parts of bodies
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still to be dug out
of this muddy crawl space.
44
00:02:40,785 --> 00:02:42,865
Police have been answering
hundreds of telephone calls
45
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from the families
of missing teenage boys
46
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all over the country.
47
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Before the murders, Gacy was
well-respected in his community.
48
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He was active in local politics
49
00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:53,630
and even dressed up as a clown
to entertain children.
50
00:02:53,673 --> 00:02:59,763
He’s a very good neighbor
and we socialize with him.
51
00:02:59,804 --> 00:03:01,104
In December 1978,
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00:03:01,139 --> 00:03:04,309
the disappearance
of a 15 year old boy led police
53
00:03:04,351 --> 00:03:06,391
to Gacy’s suburban Chicago
home.
54
00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:07,846
In the weeks that followed.
55
00:03:07,896 --> 00:03:11,266
Police found 29 bodies
buried in shallow graves
56
00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:13,186
under his home and near it.
57
00:03:13,234 --> 00:03:16,744
Police also found four bodies
in nearby streams.
58
00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:21,330
You see bodies in your sleep,
you see him in your sleep.
59
00:03:21,368 --> 00:03:23,328
It’s just too much.
60
00:03:31,252 --> 00:03:35,422
It was December of 1978,
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00:03:36,508 --> 00:03:39,088
I was getting ready
to do my laundry
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and I was watching TV.
63
00:03:40,679 --> 00:03:42,809
Today, police found four more
bodies
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00:03:42,847 --> 00:03:45,267
in John Gacy’s
suburban Chicago home.
65
00:03:45,308 --> 00:03:46,768
And saw the news flash
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about bodies being found
under a house in Chicago.
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One of John Gacy’s neighbors
said all of this
68
00:03:52,941 --> 00:03:54,611
is like a nightmare.
69
00:03:54,651 --> 00:03:56,901
And I was dumbfounded.
70
00:03:56,945 --> 00:04:00,315
It’s like,
could one person do this?
71
00:04:01,533 --> 00:04:07,833
I probably first wrote
to him in 83, 84, 1988,
72
00:04:08,498 --> 00:04:10,668
John finally responded
to one of my letters,
73
00:04:11,084 --> 00:04:14,754
and from there
we started corresponding
74
00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:16,456
and talking on the phone.
75
00:04:16,881 --> 00:04:19,471
I thought I was gonna do
either a book
76
00:04:19,509 --> 00:04:21,179
or, you know, a short film.
77
00:04:21,845 --> 00:04:26,215
But my interest was more
on a personal level.
78
00:04:26,266 --> 00:04:27,976
I wanted to ask him
79
00:04:28,935 --> 00:04:30,555
why?
80
00:04:30,603 --> 00:04:33,943
I started recording
my phone calls with Gacy
81
00:04:33,982 --> 00:04:37,032
simply because
I couldn’t take notes very fast.
82
00:04:37,068 --> 00:04:40,448
This call is subject
to being monitored and recorded.
83
00:04:40,905 --> 00:04:45,655
Hang up to decline
or dial five five to accept.
84
00:04:51,791 --> 00:04:53,881
By the end of 88?
You know,
85
00:04:53,918 --> 00:04:58,508
we were talking sometimes
four and five times a week.
86
00:05:17,650 --> 00:05:23,820
In January of 1989,
I flew into St. Louis
87
00:05:24,991 --> 00:05:29,161
and went to
Menard Correctional Facility,
88
00:05:29,204 --> 00:05:31,874
which is in the very southern
tip of Illinois.
89
00:05:32,415 --> 00:05:37,625
And I started visiting him,
which I did every three months
90
00:05:37,671 --> 00:05:41,761
for three days at a time.
For six years.
91
00:05:43,051 --> 00:05:46,551
Gacy’s the one
who wanted an interview. And,
92
00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:49,806
Of course, the Department
of Corrections
93
00:05:49,849 --> 00:05:53,729
didn’t want that at all.
They didn’t want to give Gacy
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00:05:53,770 --> 00:05:57,730
any more attention
than they had to and they didn’t
95
00:05:57,774 --> 00:05:59,324
You know, who am I am nobody.
96
00:05:59,359 --> 00:06:02,359
And then, oddly enough,
Gacy said oh well you have
97
00:06:02,404 --> 00:06:05,164
to talk to my good friend
who works at the FBI.
98
00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:09,330
And I said, who’s that?
And he goes, Robert Ressler.
99
00:06:09,369 --> 00:06:12,749
Bob Ressler helped establish
the FBI’s behavioral unit
100
00:06:12,789 --> 00:06:14,919
that investigates
serial killers.
101
00:06:14,958 --> 00:06:16,958
I think Mr. Gacy
enjoys control.
102
00:06:17,002 --> 00:06:20,092
He enjoys power and dominance
over other people.
103
00:06:20,130 --> 00:06:23,930
These are some of the base
criterias for a serial killer.
104
00:06:23,967 --> 00:06:27,847
Robert Ressler was a
special agent at the FBI.
105
00:06:28,304 --> 00:06:31,684
He basically coined
the phrase serial killer.
106
00:06:32,642 --> 00:06:34,062
Bob grew up in Chicago
107
00:06:34,102 --> 00:06:37,652
and he was in Chicago
when Gacy was arrested.
108
00:06:38,982 --> 00:06:42,822
So he was involved from the very
beginning. The FBI academy,
109
00:06:43,278 --> 00:06:46,908
reached out to many serial
killers to do interviews,
110
00:06:46,948 --> 00:06:50,488
kind of to educate students
back at the academy.
111
00:06:51,161 --> 00:06:55,041
And Bob did most of
those interviews.
112
00:06:57,334 --> 00:06:59,134
In 1989,
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00:06:59,169 --> 00:07:01,249
I contacted Bob.
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00:07:16,644 --> 00:07:18,104
I said, would you be
interested
115
00:07:18,146 --> 00:07:20,146
in doing an interview?
Because that may be the way
116
00:07:20,190 --> 00:07:22,690
the Department of Corrections
will say yes.
117
00:07:29,282 --> 00:07:30,162
So that’s how it started.
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00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:39,290
Ressler and Gacy
taped their interview
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00:07:39,334 --> 00:07:43,514
in the morning of May 4th, 1992.
120
00:07:43,546 --> 00:07:46,416
It must have been a big deal
for them to bring John
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00:07:46,466 --> 00:07:48,756
from one secure area to another.
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00:07:49,260 --> 00:07:52,680
There are a couple shots
where it’s like, you know,
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00:07:52,722 --> 00:07:54,972
a scene from a Christmas Carol
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00:07:55,016 --> 00:07:57,596
dragging the chains,
walking through.
125
00:07:58,228 --> 00:08:02,768
It was frightening.
126
00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:10,530
We used the warden’s office,
127
00:08:10,573 --> 00:08:15,373
he very generously gave us
his office to do the interview
in.
128
00:08:15,412 --> 00:08:16,872
Yeah, I was going to ask you
129
00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:19,123
in so far as sound goes,
if I’m down with my head,
130
00:08:19,165 --> 00:08:21,375
does that hurt
your sound quality?
131
00:08:21,418 --> 00:08:24,248
No, it’s OK. Just don’t, try
to move around too much.
132
00:08:25,714 --> 00:08:28,014
If you break into song
give em a cue.
133
00:08:28,049 --> 00:08:30,049
I aint gonna break into
any song.
134
00:08:30,093 --> 00:08:32,143
John’s sitting there at the
table
135
00:08:32,178 --> 00:08:36,308
with his little stack
of information and I said,
136
00:08:36,808 --> 00:08:39,438
so can can we take
the handcuffs off?
137
00:08:40,145 --> 00:08:42,105
And the warden looks
at the guard.
138
00:08:42,147 --> 00:08:45,437
The guard looks at the warden
and they go, Yeah, why not?
139
00:08:46,443 --> 00:08:50,363
First time I had ever
seen John without handcuffs.
140
00:08:50,405 --> 00:08:53,575
And so then I immediately said
to the cameraman,
141
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,540
anything that starts to get slow
or dull cut to his hands.
142
00:08:59,164 --> 00:09:00,874
There’s going to be
a tell there somewhere.
143
00:09:00,915 --> 00:09:02,955
And we’ll go into
the lead in as to
144
00:09:03,001 --> 00:09:06,051
as you know,
you were at 1978.
145
00:09:06,087 --> 00:09:07,837
Yeah. You were present.
Yeah.
146
00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:09,760
OK, that’s that’s the way
I’d like to start.
147
00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:11,299
And I’d like to kind of go
148
00:09:11,343 --> 00:09:13,013
Well what do you got there?
Let’s see your list.
149
00:09:13,053 --> 00:09:14,353
I’d just like to go through
the generalities,
150
00:09:14,387 --> 00:09:15,757
maybe talk about
the background of the thing.
151
00:09:15,805 --> 00:09:18,725
The the, uh, the original case.
152
00:09:18,767 --> 00:09:22,187
John is a master manipulator.
153
00:09:22,645 --> 00:09:25,395
He comes across as
154
00:09:25,815 --> 00:09:28,145
so damn normal.
155
00:09:28,777 --> 00:09:30,987
Uh, bleeping of the language.
156
00:09:31,029 --> 00:09:34,619
I will watch the language.
He’s going to try.
157
00:09:34,657 --> 00:09:37,117
John does tend to slip
into
158
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:37,830
Well I,
159
00:09:37,869 --> 00:09:39,119
I call it as I see it,
160
00:09:39,162 --> 00:09:40,542
and some people can’t understand
that.
161
00:09:40,580 --> 00:09:42,000
We’re learning so much now
162
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,460
that we would never
have known at the time.
163
00:09:44,501 --> 00:09:45,631
Are you going to talk first?
164
00:09:45,669 --> 00:09:47,299
Yeah, I’ll kind of introduce
165
00:09:47,337 --> 00:09:48,837
Parts that I missed
166
00:09:49,673 --> 00:09:54,433
or didn’t know about.
Or didn’t want to think about.
167
00:09:55,095 --> 00:09:58,055
This should be
the definitive story
168
00:09:58,682 --> 00:10:00,182
and not just about Gacy,
169
00:10:00,225 --> 00:10:03,475
but it’s about the families
that were affected,
170
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:04,770
the victims.
171
00:10:05,647 --> 00:10:07,607
Hopefully
making some sense
172
00:10:07,649 --> 00:10:09,399
about some of the loose ends.
173
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,360
It takes time
for history to happen.
174
00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:16,700
All right, so whenever the hell
they’re ready.
175
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,170
In 1978, when
the Gacy story broke,
176
00:10:28,211 --> 00:10:30,381
I was a general
assignment reporter
177
00:10:30,422 --> 00:10:34,012
and a weekend anchor at ABC
Seven in Chicago.
178
00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:40,720
Chicago was a dream job for me.
Reporters, news people,
179
00:10:41,224 --> 00:10:44,024
the people
that the folks of Chicago
180
00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:45,400
invited into their homes
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00:10:45,437 --> 00:10:48,107
every night
were treated very, very well.
182
00:10:48,148 --> 00:10:51,688
And if you go back to the days
of the front page
183
00:10:51,735 --> 00:10:53,985
when journalism
was king in Chicago
184
00:10:54,029 --> 00:10:55,699
and there were eight newspapers,
185
00:10:56,114 --> 00:10:59,494
Chicago was the epicenter
of great news coverage.
186
00:11:07,917 --> 00:11:10,587
I remember the moment very,
very well.
187
00:11:11,212 --> 00:11:15,382
I walked into my apartment on
East Randolph Street in Chicago
188
00:11:15,425 --> 00:11:18,345
and the phone was ringing.
I picked up the phone
189
00:11:18,386 --> 00:11:21,256
and it was the person
who would become a major source
190
00:11:21,306 --> 00:11:23,596
for this story
for years to come.
191
00:11:24,392 --> 00:11:30,402
The source said get to 82-
13 West Summerdale right away.
192
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,490
I guarantee it’ll be worth it.
And that began one of
193
00:11:35,528 --> 00:11:38,278
the most incredible stories
I’ve ever covered.
194
00:11:41,451 --> 00:11:43,041
82 13 West Summerdale
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00:11:43,078 --> 00:11:46,248
is in a neighborhood
called Norwood Park Township,
196
00:11:46,289 --> 00:11:49,789
just outside of the community of
Norwich on Chicago’s West Side.
197
00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:52,340
I’ve been given very,
very sketchy information
198
00:11:52,379 --> 00:11:54,089
about what I was
about to walk into.
199
00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:57,180
It was something
about bodies buried.
200
00:12:00,053 --> 00:12:02,603
So it’s now 11:30, 12 at night,
201
00:12:02,639 --> 00:12:05,309
there’s no newscast
until the next morning.
202
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:09,350
This was well before the days
of the internet and Twitter
203
00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:12,106
and getting something
quickly on the internet
204
00:12:12,148 --> 00:12:13,898
before anybody else
got to it.
205
00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:16,816
1978
206
00:12:17,237 --> 00:12:20,527
was a time when there
were murders in Chicago,
207
00:12:20,573 --> 00:12:24,833
but there were more drug related
murders, gang related murders.
208
00:12:25,203 --> 00:12:26,913
That neighborhood
wasn’t one you
209
00:12:26,955 --> 00:12:29,365
usually associated
with violence.
210
00:12:29,416 --> 00:12:31,626
It was a working
class neighborhood
211
00:12:31,668 --> 00:12:34,458
which was basically quiet
most of the time.
212
00:12:35,505 --> 00:12:37,585
So to have something
like that out
213
00:12:37,632 --> 00:12:41,142
there was certainly unusual,
if not unheard of.
214
00:12:42,637 --> 00:12:45,807
December in Chicago
is not fun for anybody.
215
00:12:45,849 --> 00:12:47,559
And this was a cold December,
216
00:12:48,184 --> 00:12:50,694
but you can endure
almost anything
217
00:12:51,104 --> 00:12:53,024
if the story is big enough.
218
00:12:55,358 --> 00:12:59,318
This was something the likes
of which I had never seen.
219
00:12:59,362 --> 00:13:01,572
That from now until
the day I die,
220
00:13:01,614 --> 00:13:03,454
I will be able to remember
221
00:13:03,491 --> 00:13:07,201
and be able to feel and touch
and see and smell.
222
00:13:17,172 --> 00:13:18,922
When I got to the scene,
223
00:13:18,965 --> 00:13:20,875
I believe I was
the only reporter there,
224
00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:22,505
but as the night wore on,
225
00:13:22,552 --> 00:13:26,012
word started to get out
and others arrived.
226
00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:31,600
By morning, the story
had started to come out.
227
00:13:32,562 --> 00:13:35,322
The first name to surface
was Rob Piest.
228
00:13:35,357 --> 00:13:37,777
He was the trigger
to the whole investigation.
229
00:13:38,693 --> 00:13:42,413
Rob Piest was working
at a pharmacy in Des Plaines
230
00:13:42,447 --> 00:13:44,617
when all of a sudden
he disappeared.
231
00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,332
Joe Kozenczak
and his fellow detectives
232
00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:49,830
on the Des Plaines police force
233
00:13:49,871 --> 00:13:51,831
weren’t out to make history
or write the book
234
00:13:51,873 --> 00:13:54,753
on serial killers
on December 12th, 1978.
235
00:13:55,251 --> 00:13:57,501
They were just looking
for a missing boy.
236
00:13:58,254 --> 00:14:01,934
As I was looking through the
police reports on December 12th,
237
00:14:02,967 --> 00:14:08,097
I noticed the missing persons
case report of a young boy.
238
00:14:09,474 --> 00:14:13,234
People say policemen have
a gut instinct. In this case,
239
00:14:14,229 --> 00:14:15,559
that’s how I’d have
to describe it.
240
00:14:15,605 --> 00:14:18,315
I just felt there was
something in this case
241
00:14:18,358 --> 00:14:21,608
that we should look
at closer.
242
00:14:21,653 --> 00:14:24,413
I was with the Des Plaines
Illinois Police Department.
243
00:14:24,989 --> 00:14:27,529
I started there in 1972.
244
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:30,950
I got a call
from Captain Kozenczak
245
00:14:30,995 --> 00:14:33,245
on the 13th of December.
246
00:14:34,165 --> 00:14:36,535
Rob Piest, 15 year old boy
from Des Plaines
247
00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:39,504
had gone missing
under unusual circumstances.
248
00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:43,720
Late in the day
and the 11th of December,
249
00:14:43,758 --> 00:14:46,718
his mother had come
to his place of employment,
250
00:14:47,095 --> 00:14:49,215
which was a pharmacy
in Des Plaines,
251
00:14:49,264 --> 00:14:52,104
picking him up
at the end of his workday.
252
00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:55,346
Rob Piest had come out
and spoke with his mom
253
00:14:55,395 --> 00:14:57,685
and said, hey, listen,
I’ll be done in a few minutes.
254
00:14:57,731 --> 00:15:00,151
I’ve got this contractor
that I want to talk to.
255
00:15:00,775 --> 00:15:04,355
I understand he’s hiring
and I could probably
256
00:15:04,404 --> 00:15:06,534
make substantially more
than I’m making here.
257
00:15:06,573 --> 00:15:08,323
So if you don’t mind,
I’ll just be a few minutes.
258
00:15:08,366 --> 00:15:11,156
I’m going to go talk to this guy
and I’ll be right back.
259
00:15:11,202 --> 00:15:12,912
He was pretty excited
about it,
260
00:15:12,954 --> 00:15:15,254
and I told him there’d be no
problem
261
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:16,540
that I’d wait for him.
262
00:15:17,292 --> 00:15:19,632
And that was the last
I saw of him.
263
00:15:20,712 --> 00:15:21,842
A little after 9:00,
264
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,720
mom was waiting
for him to return.
265
00:15:23,757 --> 00:15:25,337
He didn’t return.
266
00:15:25,383 --> 00:15:27,183
After Rob didn’t show up,
267
00:15:27,218 --> 00:15:29,258
Mr. and Mrs. Piest
searched all around
268
00:15:29,304 --> 00:15:31,814
Des Plaines frantically
looking for him.
269
00:15:32,974 --> 00:15:35,694
Rob Piest was very,
very close to his family.
270
00:15:35,727 --> 00:15:39,187
They were going to celebrate the
mother’s birthday that night.
271
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:41,570
And at that point,
the Piest family launched
272
00:15:41,608 --> 00:15:43,278
a full court press
273
00:15:43,318 --> 00:15:46,818
into the disappearance
of a child
274
00:15:47,614 --> 00:15:51,664
who to them was inconceivable
to have disappeared.
275
00:15:52,327 --> 00:15:55,457
We knew something was wrong.
So from there,
276
00:15:55,497 --> 00:16:00,997
we went to the police and filed
a missing persons report.
277
00:16:02,295 --> 00:16:04,625
Missing persons back
in that era,
278
00:16:04,673 --> 00:16:07,513
and even now are pretty much
a dime a dozen.
279
00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:09,180
We’ll get a call
of a missing person
280
00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:12,429
and they most likely
have run away previously
281
00:16:12,472 --> 00:16:14,222
or had problems in school
282
00:16:14,265 --> 00:16:16,345
or with the family
or something like that.
283
00:16:16,393 --> 00:16:18,443
It was totally different
with Rob Piest.
284
00:16:18,478 --> 00:16:20,858
I mean, he was like
a really good kid.
285
00:16:21,523 --> 00:16:24,113
He enjoyed school.
He enjoyed his family.
286
00:16:24,526 --> 00:16:27,526
So it was really unusual
for him to go missing.
287
00:16:28,321 --> 00:16:30,371
When the police report
was being taken,
288
00:16:30,824 --> 00:16:34,794
the desk officer overheard
the mother make a statement
289
00:16:35,412 --> 00:16:36,582
to the father saying,
290
00:16:36,621 --> 00:16:39,291
I wonder who the contractor guy
was.
291
00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:40,632
That, to me
292
00:16:40,667 --> 00:16:43,627
and he just jumped out like,
who is this?
293
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:46,010
And they did a little
background work on this.
294
00:16:46,047 --> 00:16:47,667
Find out that the contractor
295
00:16:47,716 --> 00:16:50,886
that was there was a gentleman
by the name of John Wayne Gacy
296
00:16:50,927 --> 00:16:54,347
and his expertise is
he remodels pharmacies.
297
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:55,969
Now, give me kind of
298
00:16:56,016 --> 00:16:58,436
just an overview of the business
that you eventually established.
299
00:16:58,476 --> 00:17:00,556
The construction work.
Is this self-taught?
300
00:17:00,603 --> 00:17:03,363
The construction and
maintenance work?
301
00:17:03,398 --> 00:17:04,858
I started doing painting,
302
00:17:04,899 --> 00:17:08,279
and then I started doing
wallpapering and decorating.
303
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,159
And inside of three years
PDM, which is painting,
304
00:17:12,198 --> 00:17:13,618
decorating and maintenance,
305
00:17:13,658 --> 00:17:15,658
was doing
a million dollars a year.
306
00:17:15,702 --> 00:17:16,662
And that was-
307
00:17:16,703 --> 00:17:18,203
and I only had four
employees.
308
00:17:18,246 --> 00:17:19,246
And that was the business
you were in
309
00:17:19,289 --> 00:17:20,829
at the time of the arrests?
310
00:17:20,874 --> 00:17:22,254
That’s correct.
311
00:17:22,292 --> 00:17:25,302
PDM in nineteen seventy
four became a corporation
312
00:17:25,795 --> 00:17:28,545
and then I owned
PDM Contractors Corporation.
313
00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:32,590
I own PDM Plumbing,
PDM Concrete and PDM Decorating.
314
00:17:33,261 --> 00:17:35,181
And then I branched off
with another partner
315
00:17:35,221 --> 00:17:36,931
into Raphco Construction.
316
00:17:38,016 --> 00:17:41,766
And from there we were doing
strictly drugstores.
317
00:17:42,228 --> 00:17:44,558
John was successful in his,
you know,
318
00:17:44,606 --> 00:17:46,896
remodeling business
of drugstores.
319
00:17:46,941 --> 00:17:50,571
He was very good
at chatting up the proprietor,
320
00:17:50,612 --> 00:17:53,452
suggesting how to lay, you know,
lay out the store
321
00:17:53,490 --> 00:17:56,830
so that people would see
more products and buy something.
322
00:17:56,868 --> 00:17:58,078
And, you know,
323
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,789
he hired teenagers
to do the work.
324
00:18:03,792 --> 00:18:06,922
I worked for John’s
business PDM contractors
325
00:18:06,961 --> 00:18:14,971
in the summer of 1975
and then sporadically into 76.
326
00:18:16,012 --> 00:18:20,102
He was a decent boss.
He’d like to joke around,
327
00:18:20,141 --> 00:18:23,601
he was a little bit heavyset,
so he kind of had, you know,
328
00:18:23,645 --> 00:18:28,605
the aura of being jovial
and joking around
329
00:18:28,650 --> 00:18:32,150
and seemed to not take things
too seriously.
330
00:18:33,238 --> 00:18:35,488
When I was working there,
I think there was about four
331
00:18:35,532 --> 00:18:38,282
or five of us
that were working for him
332
00:18:38,785 --> 00:18:42,535
and the age was all sixteen,
which was how old
333
00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:47,670
I was up to about 19
or 20 for the older guys.
334
00:18:48,253 --> 00:18:52,383
I think everyone was in about
that four or five year age span.
335
00:18:53,174 --> 00:18:56,344
I think he utilized
young boys
336
00:18:56,386 --> 00:18:59,386
or adolescent boys
in his business
337
00:18:59,431 --> 00:19:02,521
because, yes, they were cheaper
than if he hired perhaps
338
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:05,809
a real carpenter,
a union carpenter.
339
00:19:05,854 --> 00:19:09,234
He was always looking
for inexpensive labor.
340
00:19:10,358 --> 00:19:11,898
And, you know,
young boys provided
341
00:19:11,943 --> 00:19:15,783
that. At least at that time
that’s what we thought.
342
00:19:18,533 --> 00:19:20,663
You know, thinking back, yes,
I should have been
343
00:19:20,702 --> 00:19:24,542
much more unnerved
and afraid, but I wasn’t.
344
00:19:25,790 --> 00:19:28,540
Part of his success in that
was his demeanor,
345
00:19:29,377 --> 00:19:31,917
you know, people can put
on two different fronts.
346
00:19:33,381 --> 00:19:35,551
Because obviously,
he was a monster.
347
00:19:45,935 --> 00:19:47,645
When the investigators
started out,
348
00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:49,227
they learned from the
Piest family
349
00:19:49,272 --> 00:19:52,282
that Rob was going to go talk
to John Gacy about a job,
350
00:19:52,776 --> 00:19:54,986
and that’s the last
he had been seen.
351
00:19:55,028 --> 00:19:56,908
Well we were just in shock.
352
00:19:56,946 --> 00:20:00,116
We couldn’t eat,
couldn’t sleep.
353
00:20:00,992 --> 00:20:02,832
We didn’t know
what happened to him.
354
00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:08,250
We knew it was not of his own
choosing because he loved us.
355
00:20:08,291 --> 00:20:09,791
He loved his home.
356
00:20:09,834 --> 00:20:12,714
If there was any way for him
to come home, he would.
357
00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:15,420
So we knew something
really had happened.
358
00:20:15,465 --> 00:20:17,505
We had no idea at that time
359
00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:19,680
it would turn
into something like this.
360
00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:24,060
When you’re on a story
like this,
361
00:20:24,516 --> 00:20:26,516
in addition to covering who,
362
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,899
where, when, why, what happened,
you also start to say, OK.
363
00:20:32,065 --> 00:20:33,525
Who else knew about this?
364
00:20:33,566 --> 00:20:35,236
Did the guy
do anything before?
365
00:20:35,735 --> 00:20:37,395
Is there a police record?
366
00:20:37,445 --> 00:20:39,445
Is there something
we can find out?
367
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:42,660
We started to call
this person
368
00:20:42,701 --> 00:20:44,371
to find out what was going on,
369
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,000
and he gave his name
as John Wayne Gacy,
370
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,460
and stated that he didn’t know
anything about any missing kids
371
00:20:53,503 --> 00:20:56,923
from the drug store.
He was a little,
372
00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:02,220
defensive and based on that,
373
00:21:02,762 --> 00:21:05,272
we wanted to pursue him
a little further.
374
00:21:08,018 --> 00:21:10,978
We were trying to do
some background record checks,
375
00:21:11,021 --> 00:21:14,481
but in 1978, you know,
it’s not like it is today.
376
00:21:14,524 --> 00:21:17,244
instantaneously, you get
a criminal history,
377
00:21:17,277 --> 00:21:18,647
you can find out
everything you want.
378
00:21:18,695 --> 00:21:21,985
In 1978, the Chicago
Police Department
379
00:21:23,199 --> 00:21:26,239
had a file called
the Alpha File,
380
00:21:26,286 --> 00:21:27,866
and they would,
381
00:21:27,912 --> 00:21:32,752
based on what you told them,
search these files by hand.
382
00:21:33,793 --> 00:21:35,883
We called Chicago
Police Department.
383
00:21:36,671 --> 00:21:38,881
And said we’re trying to find
out more about this guy
384
00:21:38,923 --> 00:21:40,973
we’re looking at,
can you help us?
385
00:21:41,634 --> 00:21:44,014
Do you have
any criminal history
386
00:21:44,054 --> 00:21:45,224
on him on record?
387
00:21:45,263 --> 00:21:47,853
And this Police officer said
388
00:21:47,891 --> 00:21:50,891
the guy’s on parole to Chicago
389
00:21:51,478 --> 00:21:55,898
from the state of Iowa.
He served prison time.
390
00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:59,490
He was convicted of sodomy
of a young boy.
391
00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:03,450
And the hair stood up
on the back of our necks.
392
00:22:05,158 --> 00:22:08,368
When they found that he had
been arrested in Iowa
393
00:22:08,411 --> 00:22:10,791
for sexually molesting
a young boy.
394
00:22:11,748 --> 00:22:14,128
That obviously
threw some flags up.
395
00:22:14,167 --> 00:22:17,247
They put together a couple
of detectives later that evening
396
00:22:17,295 --> 00:22:22,375
and went looking for Gacy.
And when they got to his home.
397
00:22:23,426 --> 00:22:24,836
He was getting ready
to leave.
398
00:22:24,886 --> 00:22:26,546
Now they did not search the
house at that time
399
00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:27,716
or look through the house.
400
00:22:27,764 --> 00:22:32,064
No, according - afterwards,
401
00:22:32,102 --> 00:22:34,232
they’re claiming that they came
to the front door of the house
402
00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,770
and knocked on the door
and that I hid from them.
403
00:22:36,815 --> 00:22:38,145
Why didn’t you let them in
at that time
404
00:22:38,191 --> 00:22:40,111
when they’re knocking
at the front door?
405
00:22:40,694 --> 00:22:42,204
There was no way
I could have heard them,
406
00:22:42,237 --> 00:22:44,987
I was way in the back
of the house, in the rec room,
407
00:22:45,031 --> 00:22:46,871
on the telephone.
When they walked,
408
00:22:46,908 --> 00:22:49,158
finally walked around
the side of the house,
409
00:22:49,202 --> 00:22:51,662
I could look out the picture
window, see them there,
410
00:22:51,705 --> 00:22:52,955
because I was on the phone
411
00:22:52,997 --> 00:22:54,417
and they could see me
clearly, too,
412
00:22:54,457 --> 00:22:55,997
sitting on the couch
on the telephone
413
00:22:56,042 --> 00:22:57,502
because I was talking
to my sister
414
00:22:57,544 --> 00:22:59,674
in regards to a death
in our family.
415
00:22:59,713 --> 00:23:03,013
So I told her
that I would call her back,
416
00:23:03,591 --> 00:23:05,011
got up,
went to the door
417
00:23:05,051 --> 00:23:07,221
and he introduced himself
as Kozenczak and Pickell
418
00:23:07,262 --> 00:23:12,062
and they wanted to come in and
talk to me about Robert Piest.
419
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:14,850
And I told them that I had not
had any conversation with him,
420
00:23:14,894 --> 00:23:18,064
but I said, if you want to talk
to me, then come back there.
421
00:23:19,399 --> 00:23:21,529
We just pushed him a little.
422
00:23:22,152 --> 00:23:24,072
We said, we need you to come
in the police station,
423
00:23:24,112 --> 00:23:27,532
give us a witness statement
about what you did see
424
00:23:27,574 --> 00:23:31,544
when you were at the drugstore
and he said, I don’t have time.
425
00:23:31,578 --> 00:23:33,248
I can’t I can’t do that now.
426
00:23:33,288 --> 00:23:35,748
And they wanted me to
come down to the police station.
427
00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:38,460
OK, well, I didn’t have time
because I was doing work
428
00:23:38,501 --> 00:23:40,091
for the county
and stuff like that.
429
00:23:40,128 --> 00:23:43,718
As soon as we left
Gacy’s house,
430
00:23:43,757 --> 00:23:46,217
he attempted to flee
from the area,
431
00:23:46,259 --> 00:23:52,059
running to his car and driving
away at a high rate of speed.
432
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:55,226
Now who does that right?
433
00:23:55,268 --> 00:24:02,028
I had decided, based on Gacy’s
actions- trying to run from us,
434
00:24:02,901 --> 00:24:04,781
and his attitude in the house,
435
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,450
that I was going to try
to get a search warrant.
436
00:24:12,035 --> 00:24:13,905
Went into the police station
finally on the next day
437
00:24:13,953 --> 00:24:17,213
after- this was after Kozenczak
and Pickell were at the house.
438
00:24:17,624 --> 00:24:19,674
They had asked me to come in
439
00:24:19,709 --> 00:24:22,089
and give me an account
of my whereabouts.
440
00:24:22,128 --> 00:24:24,088
When Gacy came
into the station,
441
00:24:24,130 --> 00:24:26,630
it was my job to entertain him
for a couple hours
442
00:24:26,675 --> 00:24:28,965
because he was only there
for to be interviewed.
443
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:31,600
We couldn’t detain him,
but we didn’t want him to leave
444
00:24:31,638 --> 00:24:33,558
until we got the search warrant.
445
00:24:34,557 --> 00:24:36,387
So for two hours
I sat there with him
446
00:24:36,434 --> 00:24:40,194
and I quickly analyze
and figure out this guy was
447
00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:44,570
a blowhard that had a big ego.
So I just started feeding it.
448
00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,779
He’d tell me about how
successful at business he was
449
00:24:48,321 --> 00:24:50,741
and how he took care
of the neighborhood.
450
00:24:50,782 --> 00:24:52,952
He was the go to guy
in his neighborhood.
451
00:24:52,992 --> 00:24:55,702
And I would ask him, you know,
about people he knew.
452
00:24:55,745 --> 00:24:57,825
And he started telling me
that he knew this guy,
453
00:24:57,872 --> 00:25:00,332
he knew that guy,
uh, politician,
454
00:25:00,375 --> 00:25:04,085
so I would just act
like I was really impressed
455
00:25:04,129 --> 00:25:06,169
and he was just going nuts
telling me all about that.
456
00:25:06,214 --> 00:25:07,974
So it was no problem
keeping him there.
457
00:25:08,008 --> 00:25:09,838
The thing of it is, is that,
458
00:25:12,012 --> 00:25:16,182
on that same day, they held me
there for nine hours
459
00:25:16,224 --> 00:25:17,814
and while holding me there
for nine hours,
460
00:25:17,851 --> 00:25:19,311
they executed a search warrant.
461
00:25:19,352 --> 00:25:22,312
The first search warrant
was executed on December 13th.
462
00:25:22,981 --> 00:25:24,481
That is the search warrant
where they claimed
463
00:25:24,524 --> 00:25:27,114
they went through the house
looking for Robert Piest.
464
00:25:27,152 --> 00:25:29,072
It was written up to be looking
for Robert Piest
465
00:25:29,112 --> 00:25:31,032
and Robert Piest wasn’t there.
466
00:25:32,949 --> 00:25:34,909
Gacy lived in
an unincorporated area
467
00:25:34,951 --> 00:25:37,331
of Cook County
called Norwood Park.
468
00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:40,080
The location of his residence
was significant
469
00:25:40,123 --> 00:25:41,883
because he lived
a stone’s throw away
470
00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:44,376
from the Nisson Pharmacy
in Des Plaines,
471
00:25:44,419 --> 00:25:46,129
where Rob Piest was working.
472
00:25:47,088 --> 00:25:50,128
The first search warrant
was an attempt
473
00:25:50,175 --> 00:25:54,295
to find Rob Piest alive
and we didn’t find that.
474
00:25:54,804 --> 00:25:58,604
The first search did not give us
any direct information
475
00:25:58,641 --> 00:26:00,891
in relation
to where Rob Piest was.
476
00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:05,936
They didn’t find any bodies
in the Gacy house,
477
00:26:05,982 --> 00:26:09,282
but they did find things
that really didn’t belong there,
478
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:13,319
such as a class ring
with the initials of somebody
479
00:26:13,365 --> 00:26:14,815
that was not John Wayne Gacy.
480
00:26:15,325 --> 00:26:17,945
And they found a variety
of pornography.
481
00:26:17,994 --> 00:26:20,374
They found up in the attic
some shackles,
482
00:26:20,413 --> 00:26:23,883
and they also found up in the
attic under some insulation,
483
00:26:23,917 --> 00:26:27,207
two books, one of which
was titled The Gay Love Letters,
484
00:26:27,253 --> 00:26:29,923
and the other book
was Pretty Boys Must Die.
485
00:26:29,964 --> 00:26:33,804
These are very, very odd things
to have.
486
00:26:33,843 --> 00:26:35,803
In the trash
can in the kitchen
487
00:26:35,845 --> 00:26:38,425
they found a film receipt
that originated
488
00:26:38,473 --> 00:26:41,183
from Nisson Pharmacy
where Rob Piest had worked.
489
00:26:42,435 --> 00:26:43,895
It had no one’s name
on it at
490
00:26:43,937 --> 00:26:47,187
all it had was a number on it.
So we really had no idea
491
00:26:47,232 --> 00:26:49,402
what the film was about
or who it belonged to.
492
00:26:49,442 --> 00:26:51,152
We assumed it probably
belonged to Gacy,
493
00:26:51,194 --> 00:26:54,244
but they recovered
that just in case.
494
00:26:58,493 --> 00:27:01,373
We found driver’s licenses
from two other individuals,
495
00:27:02,706 --> 00:27:04,666
so that was what we found,
496
00:27:04,708 --> 00:27:07,088
but nothing to lead us
to Robert Piest,
497
00:27:07,127 --> 00:27:11,127
so we had to leave the house
and let Gacy back in.
498
00:27:11,881 --> 00:27:13,591
My job at the time
499
00:27:13,633 --> 00:27:17,973
was to start digging into
his past and his company’s past.
500
00:27:19,764 --> 00:27:21,814
Gacy had been married in Iowa.
501
00:27:22,475 --> 00:27:25,935
He had two children out there
502
00:27:25,979 --> 00:27:28,479
at the time
that he went to prison
503
00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:32,189
and as soon as he was paroled,
he headed back to Chicago.
504
00:27:35,905 --> 00:27:38,945
By checking missing persons
reports from the area
505
00:27:39,534 --> 00:27:41,164
and a specific age,
506
00:27:41,202 --> 00:27:43,712
we started seeing
that several other people
507
00:27:43,747 --> 00:27:45,667
that had worked for him
were missing.
508
00:27:46,958 --> 00:27:48,628
These individuals were
young men that were
509
00:27:48,668 --> 00:27:50,128
being reported missing
510
00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:52,840
and have not been seen
for several months.
511
00:27:54,174 --> 00:27:56,474
We find out that
the driver’s licenses
512
00:27:56,509 --> 00:27:57,839
that were found
in his house
513
00:27:57,886 --> 00:28:00,256
seemingly were related
to missing persons.
514
00:28:01,181 --> 00:28:02,931
After the first search warrant,
515
00:28:02,974 --> 00:28:06,354
when the police officers
brought back the class ring,
516
00:28:06,811 --> 00:28:10,271
which had initials inside of it-
J.S.,
517
00:28:10,315 --> 00:28:11,685
we were able to find out
518
00:28:11,733 --> 00:28:15,073
this ring belonged to a fellow
by the name of John Szyc
519
00:28:16,363 --> 00:28:20,163
and, and then checking
with his family,
520
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,410
finding out that,
in fact, Szyc is missing.
521
00:28:26,873 --> 00:28:28,833
We would sit there in
522
00:28:28,875 --> 00:28:30,625
the Des Plaines Police
Department
523
00:28:30,669 --> 00:28:35,379
and just say, what in God’s name
are we sitting on top of?
524
00:28:47,352 --> 00:28:50,652
We saw that Gacy
had a long record,
525
00:28:50,689 --> 00:28:53,359
there were red flags
all along the way
526
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,440
that for some reason
nobody paid attention to.
527
00:28:57,737 --> 00:29:00,867
You know, they say where
there’s smoke, there’s fire.
528
00:29:00,907 --> 00:29:04,037
In this case, there was
a blaze out of control.
529
00:29:04,828 --> 00:29:06,368
It was in so many
different districts
530
00:29:06,413 --> 00:29:10,543
and some were more diligent
than others in pursuing it.
531
00:29:11,001 --> 00:29:14,091
I think they did look
the other way many times.
532
00:29:14,129 --> 00:29:18,219
But the fact that he got away
with it for so long.
533
00:29:19,926 --> 00:29:21,886
Is he entirely to blame?
534
00:29:24,347 --> 00:29:29,847
Or is there something faulty
with the system?
535
00:29:32,355 --> 00:29:35,355
Our primary focus, our only
focus was watching Gacy.
536
00:29:35,817 --> 00:29:38,777
You’re hoping you’re going to
find this kid alive someplace,
537
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:42,200
you know, whatever it may be
that, you know, return him home.
538
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,620
But it was quite apparent,
you know, just days into it
539
00:29:47,203 --> 00:29:50,753
that Rob Piest might have been
the victim of a homicide.
540
00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:55,046
We felt it very urgent
541
00:29:55,086 --> 00:29:58,796
that we keep an eye on Gacy
no matter what,
542
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,470
let’s not lose him.
543
00:30:00,508 --> 00:30:01,928
From the very get-go
544
00:30:01,968 --> 00:30:05,888
We had a team
of undercover police officers,
545
00:30:06,431 --> 00:30:10,061
four of them working
12 hour shifts
546
00:30:10,101 --> 00:30:12,231
that were supposed
to be tailing him.
547
00:30:14,939 --> 00:30:16,859
I start the surveillance
548
00:30:17,442 --> 00:30:19,362
shortly after
the first search warrant.
549
00:30:20,195 --> 00:30:22,065
Right away, we’re thinking,
hey, you know,
550
00:30:22,113 --> 00:30:24,413
if he’s not being held
against his will Rob Piest,
551
00:30:24,449 --> 00:30:25,989
you know,
the worst case scenario
552
00:30:26,034 --> 00:30:27,794
is that he’s been killed
553
00:30:27,827 --> 00:30:30,287
and there’s a possibility that
there’s more than one victim.
554
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:31,750
So I’m thinking to myself now,
555
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:33,790
what am I doing out here
by myself?
556
00:30:34,918 --> 00:30:36,458
And I went back that day.
557
00:30:36,503 --> 00:30:38,423
I said, listen, it’s probably
a good idea if we grab
558
00:30:38,463 --> 00:30:41,133
one more guy for the night shift
to be my partner.
559
00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:45,096
And that’s how my partner,
Mike Albrecht became involved.
560
00:30:45,136 --> 00:30:47,426
We weren’t necessarily
given any instructions.
561
00:30:47,472 --> 00:30:50,272
We’re just told watch Gacy.
I mean, you had a suspect
562
00:30:50,308 --> 00:30:53,808
in a could be a homicide case,
so you got to watch him.
563
00:30:53,853 --> 00:30:56,363
The police had focused
in on you
564
00:30:56,398 --> 00:30:58,068
as being the suspect
in the missing boy.
565
00:30:58,108 --> 00:30:59,358
and eventually, uh
566
00:30:59,401 --> 00:31:00,691
well they were
following me around
567
00:31:00,735 --> 00:31:01,855
Following you?
568
00:31:01,903 --> 00:31:02,993
yeah, constantly.
569
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:04,949
And on December 13th,
570
00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:07,910
I had made a statement
to the police department.
571
00:31:07,951 --> 00:31:12,211
And from that date forward,
they were had me
572
00:31:12,247 --> 00:31:14,207
under surveillance.
The only trouble is,
573
00:31:14,249 --> 00:31:16,669
is that the Mickey Mouse way
they were doing it,
574
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:19,500
they had two cars
following me day and night
575
00:31:19,546 --> 00:31:21,626
and they had trouble
keeping up with me.
576
00:31:21,673 --> 00:31:23,633
So I used to go out
to the car in the morning
577
00:31:23,675 --> 00:31:27,005
and tell them where I was going,
so in case they got lost.
578
00:31:27,429 --> 00:31:30,559
because at the time I was doing
five construction jobs
579
00:31:31,141 --> 00:31:32,811
in five parts of the city.
580
00:31:33,685 --> 00:31:36,305
So in essence,
I was all over the place.
581
00:31:36,896 --> 00:31:40,276
But this was like Keystone Cops
trying to follow me around.
582
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:42,150
Gacy did know
he was being surveilled
583
00:31:42,193 --> 00:31:43,493
right from the get-go.
584
00:31:43,528 --> 00:31:47,278
On the very first day
of my surveillance
585
00:31:48,033 --> 00:31:49,493
when I was just being relieved,
586
00:31:49,534 --> 00:31:52,664
Gacy came up to us and asked
if we were the police,
587
00:31:52,704 --> 00:31:53,834
and we responded,
588
00:31:53,872 --> 00:31:55,252
well, with Des Plaines,
you know,
589
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:57,830
and we’ve been told
to keep an eye on you,
590
00:31:57,876 --> 00:31:59,496
and that’s what we’re doing.
591
00:31:59,544 --> 00:32:03,554
So one of us would be parked
in front of Gacy’s house
592
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:05,430
and the other one
right on the corner
593
00:32:05,467 --> 00:32:07,677
because if Gacy
wanted to go out the back
594
00:32:07,719 --> 00:32:08,849
we’d be able to watch that.
595
00:32:08,887 --> 00:32:12,097
That first night
was kind of uneventful,
596
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:14,140
and we spent most of the night
at Gacy’s house.
597
00:32:14,184 --> 00:32:17,064
But then, you know, he started
going places at night.
598
00:32:20,106 --> 00:32:22,186
And a third day
of the surveillance,
599
00:32:22,233 --> 00:32:25,073
we released the surveillance
team about midnight
600
00:32:25,111 --> 00:32:29,071
over at a place called
the Moose Lodge in Des Plaines,
601
00:32:29,657 --> 00:32:32,867
and Gacy was in the Moose Lodge
at that time.
602
00:32:33,745 --> 00:32:37,205
So Mike and I being
in unchartered waters
603
00:32:37,248 --> 00:32:38,788
thought hey, you know
604
00:32:38,833 --> 00:32:42,173
it’d be a lot easier
if we would just go inside.
605
00:32:42,212 --> 00:32:44,262
He already knows
that we’re here.
606
00:32:44,297 --> 00:32:46,127
So Mike and I both went
in the Moose Lodge
607
00:32:46,174 --> 00:32:49,054
and we saw Gacy right away
and he saw us walk in.
608
00:32:49,094 --> 00:32:52,314
We sat at a table, maybe
three tables away from Gacy.
609
00:32:53,098 --> 00:32:55,388
And a short time later,
610
00:32:55,433 --> 00:32:58,773
the waitress approaches us
with two beers and says,
611
00:32:58,812 --> 00:33:01,902
these beers on the gentleman
over there pointing to Gacy.
612
00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:03,230
About halfway through our beer
613
00:33:03,274 --> 00:33:06,904
we sent Gacy a beer,
so we reciprocated.
614
00:33:07,487 --> 00:33:11,277
And when it was time
for him to leave, he got up.
615
00:33:11,324 --> 00:33:12,914
The place was just starting
to close up.
616
00:33:12,951 --> 00:33:14,411
And he walks past us
and he says,
617
00:33:14,452 --> 00:33:16,252
hey, would you guys like
to go to breakfast somewhere?
618
00:33:16,287 --> 00:33:18,367
Right around the corner
was a place called
619
00:33:18,415 --> 00:33:20,125
the Pot and Pan Restaurant.
620
00:33:20,166 --> 00:33:23,706
And so we went in there
and Gacy went and he sat down
621
00:33:24,421 --> 00:33:26,761
and we were kind of
sitting off the corner
622
00:33:26,798 --> 00:33:28,008
a little bit away from him
623
00:33:28,049 --> 00:33:29,929
and started talking back
and forth
624
00:33:29,968 --> 00:33:31,588
he says why don’t you guys
come on and sit down with me?
625
00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:33,386
So from that point on,
626
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:35,310
when he went into
a public place,
627
00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:38,060
we would go in there with him.
628
00:33:39,561 --> 00:33:42,731
And we get into all kinds
of conversations
629
00:33:42,772 --> 00:33:47,742
about what we’re doing,
why we’re following him,
630
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:52,659
and he talks about his business
and how successful he is,
631
00:33:52,699 --> 00:33:56,289
and he told us
why he hired young kids.
632
00:33:56,327 --> 00:33:58,497
He says, you know, I got
to tell you from experience,
633
00:33:58,538 --> 00:34:01,498
I know if I’ve hired a guy
that’s been around the block
634
00:34:01,541 --> 00:34:03,791
a few times,
it’s hard for me to train him
635
00:34:03,835 --> 00:34:06,455
because he’s used to doing it
a certain way.
636
00:34:06,504 --> 00:34:09,264
I hire these young kids
that don’t have any experience.
637
00:34:09,299 --> 00:34:11,839
I can train them right
from right from the start
638
00:34:12,260 --> 00:34:14,140
how to do it
the way I want it done.
639
00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:16,809
He was, you know,
a real braggart
640
00:34:16,848 --> 00:34:21,188
and he would imply all his
contacts that he had
641
00:34:21,227 --> 00:34:22,187
in the city of Chicago.
642
00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:25,650
He had a lot of friends out
of Chicago Police Department.
643
00:34:25,690 --> 00:34:29,150
He would just at times give you
kind of tidbits of what he had,
644
00:34:29,194 --> 00:34:31,074
about all his contacts.
645
00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:34,320
He never really said, oh, well,
they’ve done this for me.
646
00:34:34,366 --> 00:34:37,446
It’s more like planting
a seed that if he needs help,
647
00:34:37,869 --> 00:34:39,539
he knows where to go to get it.
648
00:34:40,580 --> 00:34:43,500
Well, because of his
political connections,
649
00:34:43,541 --> 00:34:46,881
John felt he had Teflon coating,
he could get away with anything.
650
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,340
That’s what I’ve learned
is like, oh my God,
651
00:34:50,382 --> 00:34:55,642
there’s a whole tractor
trailer load of details
652
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,559
about Chicago politics
that I never even considered.
653
00:35:00,684 --> 00:35:02,894
Everything in Chicago
was based on politics
654
00:35:02,936 --> 00:35:04,306
back in the 70s.
655
00:35:04,354 --> 00:35:05,734
The mayor was in charge
656
00:35:05,772 --> 00:35:08,732
and he was at the top, top
rung on the ladder.
657
00:35:09,150 --> 00:35:10,530
But as it filtered down,
658
00:35:10,568 --> 00:35:13,778
you had all these workers,
precinct workers.
659
00:35:13,822 --> 00:35:15,992
Gacy was one of those
660
00:35:16,032 --> 00:35:19,242
foot soldiers
out in Norwood Park Township.
661
00:35:19,994 --> 00:35:23,874
Gacy was a politician. He told
local Democratic officials
662
00:35:23,915 --> 00:35:26,035
that he wanted to run
for office someday.
663
00:35:26,084 --> 00:35:27,384
He was very friendly,
664
00:35:27,419 --> 00:35:32,219
forthcoming hail
fellow well met type of guy.
665
00:35:32,257 --> 00:35:34,547
John Wayne Gacy was also Pogo
the clown
666
00:35:34,592 --> 00:35:36,302
who loved to make kids laugh.
667
00:35:36,845 --> 00:35:39,345
He was married twice,
divorced twice,
668
00:35:39,389 --> 00:35:42,099
and had two children.
A Democratic Party
669
00:35:42,142 --> 00:35:44,602
precinct worker
with political connections.
670
00:35:44,644 --> 00:35:46,524
His neighbors
knew him as Johnny.
671
00:35:46,563 --> 00:35:48,903
He had big parties
every year at his house.
672
00:35:49,357 --> 00:35:50,647
There were several groups
673
00:35:50,692 --> 00:35:52,692
of people
that went to these parties,
674
00:35:52,736 --> 00:35:54,896
from the neighbors
to young men and boys,
675
00:35:54,946 --> 00:35:58,196
employees who thought
that maybe he was the key
676
00:35:58,241 --> 00:36:00,241
to a job or money or whatever.
677
00:36:00,285 --> 00:36:04,205
Gacy’s parties were also
for the political operatives
678
00:36:04,247 --> 00:36:06,617
of the area
of Norwood Park Township.
679
00:36:06,666 --> 00:36:10,746
Gacy would do anything
he could to ingratiate himself
680
00:36:10,795 --> 00:36:12,255
with the power structure
681
00:36:12,297 --> 00:36:16,177
because he wanted to rise within
the democratic institution
682
00:36:16,217 --> 00:36:17,757
in the city of Chicago.
683
00:36:17,802 --> 00:36:20,312
So he had his picture taken
with all these dignitaries.
684
00:36:20,347 --> 00:36:23,017
Rosalynn Carter was
in Chicago last May
685
00:36:23,058 --> 00:36:24,678
for a Polish observance.
686
00:36:24,726 --> 00:36:28,016
There was a parade and one
of the parade coordinators
687
00:36:28,063 --> 00:36:29,773
was John Wayne Gacy.
688
00:36:29,814 --> 00:36:32,364
Gacy also attended
the private reception
689
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,990
where there’s a picture
of them meeting
690
00:36:34,027 --> 00:36:37,357
the first lady was taken.
The emblem on Gacy’s jacket
691
00:36:37,405 --> 00:36:39,815
indicates
he had Secret Service clearance
692
00:36:39,866 --> 00:36:43,326
even though he was convicted
of a sex offense in 1968.
693
00:36:43,995 --> 00:36:45,615
There’s that one photograph
of you Rosalynn Carter.
694
00:36:45,663 --> 00:36:47,293
Um, yeah Mrs.Rosalynn Carter.
695
00:36:47,332 --> 00:36:49,172
Well, the Secret Service
tries to cover it up
696
00:36:49,209 --> 00:36:52,169
and said, well, we don’t know
how he got into the picture.
697
00:36:52,212 --> 00:36:54,512
Hell, I was in charge
of the reception.
698
00:36:54,547 --> 00:36:56,257
I had to stand at the door
and let them know
699
00:36:56,299 --> 00:36:57,549
which politicians
were allowed in
700
00:36:57,592 --> 00:36:59,762
and which ones weren’t,
the thing it is.
701
00:36:59,803 --> 00:37:02,893
But the uh, the Secret Service
wanted to cover up
702
00:37:02,931 --> 00:37:04,141
and make it sound like that
703
00:37:04,182 --> 00:37:06,232
I had no business there.
I was cleared
704
00:37:06,267 --> 00:37:07,847
and I was with Secret Service
at the time
705
00:37:07,894 --> 00:37:10,154
and setting up the parade route
and everything,
706
00:37:10,188 --> 00:37:11,728
because I used
to set up the parades
707
00:37:11,773 --> 00:37:13,613
for the Polish alliance.
708
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:15,740
And then for three years
in a row
709
00:37:15,777 --> 00:37:18,697
I had to set up the
parades to run.
710
00:37:19,322 --> 00:37:20,622
And, you know,
that’s a big feat,
711
00:37:20,657 --> 00:37:23,367
getting 20,000 Polish people
712
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:25,540
to go in one
direction at one time.
713
00:37:28,289 --> 00:37:29,789
A lot of times
you’ll go to a story
714
00:37:29,833 --> 00:37:32,343
and say oh I was
suspicious of him.
715
00:37:32,377 --> 00:37:33,837
Not in this case.
716
00:37:33,878 --> 00:37:39,628
Gacy used the aura of being
politically connected
717
00:37:39,676 --> 00:37:42,926
to deceive people into thinking,
you know,
718
00:37:42,971 --> 00:37:44,681
let’s leave this guy alone
719
00:37:44,723 --> 00:37:47,733
because it may come back
to haunt us later on.
720
00:37:47,767 --> 00:37:51,517
He manipulated public officials
to think he was just a guy
721
00:37:51,563 --> 00:37:53,523
who was on the make politically
722
00:37:53,565 --> 00:37:57,355
and he fooled everybody
every step of the way.
723
00:38:04,367 --> 00:38:06,537
When we were following Gacy,
724
00:38:06,578 --> 00:38:10,368
we had to kind of remind
each other once in a while
725
00:38:10,415 --> 00:38:12,665
what we were involved in
and not get taken in by this guy
726
00:38:12,709 --> 00:38:15,249
because he was a B.S.er and he,
very boastful
727
00:38:15,295 --> 00:38:17,835
and try to get your confidence
and all that kind of stuff.
728
00:38:17,881 --> 00:38:19,171
He was very likable
729
00:38:19,215 --> 00:38:23,345
and Mike and I are like better
kind of, you know,
730
00:38:23,386 --> 00:38:24,846
keep our guard up with this guy.
731
00:38:24,888 --> 00:38:27,428
Even though you have a tendency
to put your guard down
732
00:38:27,891 --> 00:38:31,231
because of the way he talked
and acted and befriended us.
733
00:38:31,686 --> 00:38:33,556
He acted like such a normal guy.
734
00:38:33,605 --> 00:38:36,105
He says, I don’t know
if you guys are following me
735
00:38:36,149 --> 00:38:38,739
because of this missing person
that they were asking about.
736
00:38:38,777 --> 00:38:40,857
But I have nothing to do
with this kid.
737
00:38:40,904 --> 00:38:42,324
I’ve never seen him.
738
00:38:42,364 --> 00:38:45,164
He says I’ll I’ll help you
on the search you know.
739
00:38:45,658 --> 00:38:46,868
But I got to tell you,
740
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:48,870
I’m not involved
with this at all.
741
00:38:49,913 --> 00:38:52,673
Now, he was showing
some odd behavior.
742
00:38:52,707 --> 00:38:55,417
You know, personality changes,
if you would.
743
00:38:55,460 --> 00:38:56,840
You know, he’d seem
real friendly
744
00:38:56,878 --> 00:38:59,298
and then all of a sudden
he’d be aggravated
745
00:38:59,839 --> 00:39:02,759
and then he would
he would have this
746
00:39:03,927 --> 00:39:06,757
real unusual look
on his face, you know,
747
00:39:06,805 --> 00:39:09,885
like almost like
a beaten man, you know,
748
00:39:09,933 --> 00:39:13,443
and aggravated scary
looking face.
749
00:39:14,104 --> 00:39:15,524
But, you know,
we’d get him out of the car
750
00:39:15,563 --> 00:39:16,903
and shake him by the shoulders
751
00:39:16,940 --> 00:39:18,570
and tell him hey
if you don’t knock it off,
752
00:39:18,608 --> 00:39:20,278
you know, we’re going
to have to arrest you
753
00:39:20,318 --> 00:39:22,528
for reckless driving
or something like that.
754
00:39:22,570 --> 00:39:24,570
And then all of a sudden
he’d be fine
755
00:39:24,614 --> 00:39:26,284
and he’d be like that
for a couple hours
756
00:39:26,324 --> 00:39:28,084
and then he’d go nuts again.
757
00:39:28,118 --> 00:39:30,658
Police have been watching
John Gacy’s suburban Chicago
758
00:39:30,704 --> 00:39:32,374
home for the past 10 days.
759
00:39:32,914 --> 00:39:35,834
They became suspicious
when 15 year old Robert Piest
760
00:39:35,875 --> 00:39:38,915
disappeared after he allegedly
was last seen with Gacy.
761
00:39:38,962 --> 00:39:40,842
We were just so engrossed
with this.
762
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,970
I mean, we thought
of nothing else.
763
00:39:43,633 --> 00:39:44,973
Nothing in the entire I mean,
764
00:39:45,010 --> 00:39:46,760
it was only
a 10 day surveillance,
765
00:39:46,803 --> 00:39:48,763
but I mean, it’s all we
lived and breathed.
766
00:39:48,805 --> 00:39:51,635
We didn’t have a thought
about anything else.
767
00:39:53,476 --> 00:39:55,226
During this time,
the investigators
768
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:59,610
were interviewing
Michael Rossi and David Cram,
769
00:39:59,649 --> 00:40:02,609
who were basically very loyal,
longtime employees,
770
00:40:02,652 --> 00:40:04,282
young kids, you know,
in their 20s.
771
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:05,820
Mike Rossi and David Cram
772
00:40:06,197 --> 00:40:08,777
they did odd jobs for him,
you know, and helping him
773
00:40:08,825 --> 00:40:10,945
on a construction job
and stuff like that.
774
00:40:10,994 --> 00:40:13,464
So they were his workers.
They worked for him.
775
00:40:13,872 --> 00:40:15,332
And each time they’d
interview them
776
00:40:15,373 --> 00:40:16,963
and they interviewed them
multiple times,
777
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,960
they would give just
a little more information.
778
00:40:19,002 --> 00:40:22,302
Telling the investigators that
they had been in a crawlspace
779
00:40:22,339 --> 00:40:26,009
and been ordered
to dig some trenches.
780
00:40:28,428 --> 00:40:30,468
They said Gacy had them
781
00:40:30,513 --> 00:40:33,643
dig trenches down
in the crawl space
782
00:40:33,683 --> 00:40:35,643
and the reason
for these trenches
783
00:40:36,061 --> 00:40:38,401
ostensibly given
to Rossi and Cram
784
00:40:39,105 --> 00:40:43,355
were to make holes
to put in drain pipe
785
00:40:44,319 --> 00:40:46,609
Captain Kozenczak
and the investigators,
786
00:40:46,654 --> 00:40:48,624
now they’re starting
to find out
787
00:40:48,656 --> 00:40:51,326
that there is an odor down
in the crawl space,
788
00:40:51,368 --> 00:40:55,208
and Gacy has always put it off
to a sewage issue down there.
789
00:40:56,122 --> 00:41:00,462
And when a smell would erupt
from the crawlspace,
790
00:41:00,502 --> 00:41:02,002
Rossi and Cram, they were told
791
00:41:02,045 --> 00:41:04,205
to throw lime down
to cover the smell.
792
00:41:04,255 --> 00:41:07,675
The subdivision where
the Summerdale house is located
793
00:41:07,717 --> 00:41:09,337
is built on a clay field.
794
00:41:09,386 --> 00:41:12,136
And when it rained, the rain
would come down from both ends
795
00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:14,970
and would flood from
from one house to the other.
796
00:41:15,016 --> 00:41:16,846
The crawlspace would
fill up with water.
797
00:41:16,893 --> 00:41:22,153
In 1976, I asked a landscaper,
I said, what do you do for
798
00:41:22,774 --> 00:41:26,494
for that sour odor of clay?
And he said spread white lime,
799
00:41:26,528 --> 00:41:28,858
just regular masonry
lime on the ground.
800
00:41:28,905 --> 00:41:30,365
He said, it’ll sweeten
up the clay
801
00:41:30,407 --> 00:41:31,907
and you won’t have that odor.
802
00:41:31,950 --> 00:41:34,410
Sort of like what charcoal
does in filtering things.
803
00:41:34,452 --> 00:41:37,212
That’s why the lime
was spread in the crawlspace.
804
00:41:37,247 --> 00:41:39,367
How much the lime was spread
down there eventually?
805
00:41:39,416 --> 00:41:43,956
Uh, I think seven
or eight hundred pounds of it.
806
00:41:45,296 --> 00:41:48,546
We actually went into
the crawlspace the first time.
807
00:41:48,591 --> 00:41:50,841
But if you’re looking
for a freshly dug grave,
808
00:41:50,885 --> 00:41:52,715
you’re going to look
for a mound of dirt.
809
00:41:52,762 --> 00:41:54,432
Well, there was no mounds
of dirt there,
810
00:41:54,472 --> 00:41:57,432
so we did didn’t look
any further.
811
00:41:58,601 --> 00:42:02,651
But now with Rossi and Cram
digging these trenches in there
812
00:42:02,689 --> 00:42:04,269
we’re putting two and
two together
813
00:42:04,315 --> 00:42:07,185
or as crazy as he’s starting
to act and his background,
814
00:42:07,235 --> 00:42:08,895
you know,
815
00:42:08,945 --> 00:42:11,155
that’s starting to come to the
thoughts of these investigators
816
00:42:11,197 --> 00:42:13,697
that maybe he’s got
a dead body down there.
817
00:42:23,168 --> 00:42:26,208
The first search warrant
was executed on December 13th.
818
00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:31,255
However, what is strange
is you had 20 trained officers
819
00:42:31,301 --> 00:42:33,011
that came into that house,
820
00:42:33,053 --> 00:42:35,893
supposedly went down in the
crawl space, crawled around.
821
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:38,020
There was no mounds of dirt.
There was no odor.
822
00:42:38,058 --> 00:42:39,678
There was no nothing.
823
00:42:39,726 --> 00:42:42,596
I never feared anybody
going down that crawl space.
824
00:42:43,772 --> 00:42:45,072
Now, the team is starting
825
00:42:45,106 --> 00:42:46,936
to put a little bit
of pressure on Gacy
826
00:42:46,983 --> 00:42:51,243
and he seems very agitated,
so we’re starting to get to him
827
00:42:51,279 --> 00:42:53,029
and we can tell.
828
00:42:53,073 --> 00:42:54,993
When we first
started the surveillance,
829
00:42:55,033 --> 00:42:57,953
Gacy seemed to be able
to operate like on three
830
00:42:57,994 --> 00:43:01,414
or four hours sleep.
But as the investigation went on
831
00:43:01,456 --> 00:43:03,116
and he was becoming more
and more worried,
832
00:43:03,166 --> 00:43:05,126
he was getting
virtually no sleep.
833
00:43:05,752 --> 00:43:07,302
And it was very visible,
834
00:43:07,337 --> 00:43:10,087
you know, his body language
and his posture, everything,
835
00:43:10,131 --> 00:43:11,721
he looked horrible.
836
00:43:11,758 --> 00:43:16,008
He was just transformed
from this effervescent guy
837
00:43:16,596 --> 00:43:18,596
to a beaten man.
838
00:43:19,849 --> 00:43:23,809
The police wanted to get
a second search warrant.
839
00:43:23,853 --> 00:43:26,273
The main obstacle was there
was already a search warrant
840
00:43:26,314 --> 00:43:27,484
that had been executed.
841
00:43:27,524 --> 00:43:29,694
So we needed
fresh probable cause.
842
00:43:30,276 --> 00:43:32,066
The probable cause
for the second warrant
843
00:43:32,112 --> 00:43:35,992
was an amalgamation of about two
or three pieces of evidence.
844
00:43:37,158 --> 00:43:40,498
One was a class ring that Gacy
probably should not have had.
845
00:43:41,246 --> 00:43:44,786
Another item of evidence
found in the Gacy house
846
00:43:44,833 --> 00:43:47,253
was a photo slip, the kind
847
00:43:47,711 --> 00:43:49,841
when people used
to take pictures with film,
848
00:43:49,879 --> 00:43:51,919
not in Rob Piest’s name,
849
00:43:51,965 --> 00:43:55,045
but in the name of a young lady
named Kim Byers
850
00:43:55,552 --> 00:43:57,222
who worked at the drug store.
851
00:43:58,179 --> 00:44:02,099
Kim Byers worked at the cash
register at the Nisson pharmacy,
852
00:44:02,892 --> 00:44:04,312
and she was at the front
of the store
853
00:44:04,352 --> 00:44:06,062
right by the front door.
854
00:44:06,104 --> 00:44:08,904
Kim Byers was going to step
outside and have a break,
855
00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:11,990
and she borrowed
Rob Piest’s coat.
856
00:44:12,027 --> 00:44:14,147
And just before she went
outside,
857
00:44:14,195 --> 00:44:17,985
she took her film and was
having the film processed,
858
00:44:18,033 --> 00:44:22,293
got a receipt, put the receipt
in the pocket of Piest’s coat.
859
00:44:23,121 --> 00:44:26,171
That’s the same receipt
that we found in Gacy’s trash.
860
00:44:26,207 --> 00:44:29,037
So that tied Piest
to Gacy’s house.
861
00:44:30,503 --> 00:44:32,463
The third thing, as I recall,
862
00:44:33,131 --> 00:44:36,511
was a conversation I had
with the police officers
863
00:44:37,218 --> 00:44:41,508
and they were doing
surveillance of Gacy.
864
00:44:41,556 --> 00:44:43,056
It was very,
very cold that winter.
865
00:44:43,099 --> 00:44:46,309
And that’s an important fact
because they would
866
00:44:46,353 --> 00:44:49,653
sit right outside of his house
in the unmarked police car.
867
00:44:49,689 --> 00:44:53,279
Gacy, who was full of hubris
and arrogance,
868
00:44:53,318 --> 00:44:55,948
would sometimes invite them
in to use the restroom
869
00:44:56,446 --> 00:44:58,906
and warm up
the second surveillance team,
870
00:44:58,948 --> 00:45:01,278
which was Bob Schultz
and Ron Robinson.
871
00:45:02,410 --> 00:45:04,910
They pretty much did
the same things that we did.
872
00:45:04,954 --> 00:45:06,214
You know, they followed him,
873
00:45:06,247 --> 00:45:09,707
they had conversations
with Gacy.
874
00:45:09,751 --> 00:45:11,671
They stayed with
him wherever.
875
00:45:11,711 --> 00:45:13,631
This particular day
876
00:45:13,672 --> 00:45:15,802
Gacy says to Schultz
and Robinson
877
00:45:16,424 --> 00:45:18,844
he says hey you guys want
to have dinner at my place?
878
00:45:18,885 --> 00:45:20,215
And they looked
at each other and said
879
00:45:20,261 --> 00:45:22,891
sure.
880
00:45:22,931 --> 00:45:25,931
So they follow Gacy
over to his house,
881
00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:29,980
go in there, Gacy is starting to
prepare dinner for them.
882
00:45:31,398 --> 00:45:34,478
And while they’re
in there Schultz says hey,
883
00:45:34,526 --> 00:45:35,986
I got to go to the bathroom.
884
00:45:36,027 --> 00:45:39,407
So Bob went into the bathroom
and what happened then,
885
00:45:39,447 --> 00:45:41,987
while he was in there,
the heat kicked on.
886
00:45:45,704 --> 00:45:51,214
And when the heat kicks on,
Shultz smells this horrific
smell
887
00:45:52,293 --> 00:45:55,303
that he said he could only
equate to the county morgue.
888
00:45:57,173 --> 00:45:59,973
He thought that the odor
reminded him
889
00:46:00,010 --> 00:46:03,810
of what he had smelled
in his experience
890
00:46:03,847 --> 00:46:07,057
as a patrolman,
the odor of decaying flesh.
891
00:46:08,685 --> 00:46:13,055
When I heard that, I said,
I think we have probable cause.
892
00:46:16,401 --> 00:46:19,241
After I prepared
the search warrant
893
00:46:19,279 --> 00:46:21,909
with the police officers
from Des Plaines,
894
00:46:22,615 --> 00:46:25,695
it was already getting into the
late afternoon, early evening.
895
00:46:26,327 --> 00:46:28,957
So I went home, I had
dinner with my grandmother,
896
00:46:28,997 --> 00:46:33,287
went back to my place,
fell asleep and all was fine
897
00:46:33,335 --> 00:46:36,455
until about 5:00 in the morning
when I received a telephone call
898
00:46:36,504 --> 00:46:39,344
from Assistant State’s Attorney
Mike Corkell,
899
00:46:40,675 --> 00:46:43,085
who told me,
get your ass out of bed
900
00:46:43,136 --> 00:46:45,006
and over to the police station.
901
00:46:45,513 --> 00:46:47,353
We found bones.
902
00:46:50,435 --> 00:46:51,635
I made several trips
903
00:46:51,686 --> 00:46:53,436
to the house
during the excavation.
904
00:46:54,481 --> 00:46:58,191
The stench in there
was overwhelming.
905
00:46:59,486 --> 00:47:03,446
The police officers
would wear kerchiefs
906
00:47:03,490 --> 00:47:05,410
around their nose and mouth.
907
00:47:07,202 --> 00:47:12,582
And I remember seeing
what they put in body bags.
908
00:47:13,667 --> 00:47:16,537
I had seen crime victims
before, dead people,
909
00:47:16,586 --> 00:47:19,206
but nothing like this.
910
00:47:20,715 --> 00:47:23,835
In hindsight, everything
is very, very clear,
911
00:47:23,885 --> 00:47:25,385
but as you’re going through it,
912
00:47:25,428 --> 00:47:27,888
you’re trying to figure out
how could he take victim
913
00:47:27,931 --> 00:47:31,311
after victim from the
same streets and not get caught?
914
00:47:31,976 --> 00:47:34,016
And the only answer
you come to
915
00:47:34,062 --> 00:47:36,312
is that someone
was looking the other way.
916
00:47:36,731 --> 00:47:38,481
This man could have been
stopped.
70909
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