Original subtitles

So.

My name Roland Klick.

I'm the director of this movie which is about to be shown on the screen now.

In the Negev desert, close to the Dead Sea.

I'm sitting here together with Uli von Berg,

who wrote a very beautiful book

on my movies, on my person as a director.

The book is called "The cinema of Roland Klick"

and was written in the mid-90s.

That is why Uli seemed to be the suitable discussion partner,

to comment this movie here in front of the screen.

He will ask me questions and we'll try to provide you with insights

on the production history and on working on the different settings.

Uli...

Roland, you once said the nice sentence:

"In the beginning there's the vision of the

world in which the story will take place.

With DEADLOCK it was supposed to be a snow-white desert."

Could you briefly tell us how you came up with this location,

or if the story, the basic idea for it was there first?

This is a good question. Actually, this movie has a lot of personal components.

My wife died in a car accident and so I had a

moment in my life where I needed to contemplate

how to keep on. Not only in terms of movies, but in general.

And when this happened, the first vision of a movie in the desert

already existed but only in fragments.

I had done with Otto Sander, who was back then at the theater in D�sseldorf,

the movie "Ludwig"

and we imagined the quarry scenery in "Ludwig",

playing in Bavaria, being projected on a large scale

and a large desert landscape which now opens the big cinema, kind of.

In this situation which I just described,

I just started my trip.

I went to Tunisia, to Almeria in Spain

where a lot of these westerns were being shot.

And somebody told me

to have a look at Israel. Then, there was a movie week in Israel.

I was invited with my movie "Little Boy",

so while I was there already, I took a rental car

and drove to the desert.

That was the first contact.

And then I saw things where I immediately knew,

this could be right.

I rented an old Jeep

and drove right into the desert.

This is a peculiar story.

You can watch the images since it takes place there.

I drove into a wadi.

These are washed-out river valleys, since sometimes the water washes...

It got narrower and narrower to the left and right white walls of rocks,

the jeep struggled through it, also stopped again and again.

And suddenly, up in a wadi there was a hole on the rim. It was a cave.

So I climbed up, into this cave

and suddenly, I stood in a cave full of burning candles.

Burning candles, wax was running down...

I was terribly frightened since I realized:

there were people here just before!

Later, I thought that maybe it was Al Fatah,

who thought, now there's an army Jeep coming.

Anyways, I went through this cave

and at the end, you could walk up some stepped out stones.

I walked up and suddenly there's the vast desert in front of me.

I would never have found it, it was somehow always up there.

Suddenly, I saw this desert

and knew that the movie should take place here.

Then I discovered this old camp which we are about to see.

I slept there in a sleeping bag for three days, wa"ed around

and the vision became physical, for it is salt,

and you break into the salt while walking, it crunches.

This is also the origin of Masha's character.

Meaning that the movie became a vision

in this world I experienced down there.

This is the vision.

Here, we see Adorf now.

We saw the boy

stumbling through the desert, Adorf finds him,

and there in the suitcase, what should it be?

Money!

And a record. That's the way I like it.

Before Mario Adorf, who was already quite a big star back then,

in the 50s and 60s already,

we have seen Marquard Bohm for a few minutes.

This is striking and actually I haven't seen this before until then,

I was 16 when I watched the movie for the first time,

There's an actor,

who obviously has an incredible physical presence.

I was aware of it a bit by the movies of Rudolf Thorne,

but not from a genre movie in the widest sense.

He's coming out of the background to the music of Can,

to the shimmering sun images, walking towards the camera

and you treat him like a star. Like Alain Delon is treated.

And such dealing with stars, not with actors,

that was unique.

This is what distinguishes you from all the Wenders, Herzogs, Fassbinders...

This is nice how you put it.

This is my basic philosophy.

That the part also is made from the personality of the one performing it...

That's why I don't like to say actors rather performer.

He can only perform it if this is inherent in him.

And I'm always looking for this connection.

I'm searching in this person, in the way how he eventually moves his fingers,

you gonna see it, I kind of develop the appearance of the character

from that what the performer is delivering me, intuitively and visually,

also formed as a certain vision.

And that's leading to this visual style, to express this vision

with the help of the one performing it.

And that is the connection. Which is, by the

way, something that all the great American

and French directors are doing.

Of course, Delon developed itself out of Delon.

Or James Dean who is a very good example.

In Germany, one would have told him perhaps,

boy, stand upright and don't look from below.

Instead the directors

developed out of the appearance of this boy, out of his singularity,

James Dean, the movie star.

And for me, this is a prerequisite for the existence of great cinema.

Robert van Ackeren.

You know him, later he did some quite remarkable movies.

And Can, the music group, is known too.

It's a cult band.

Back then, they weren't or even remotely.

Or it started. Yes, it started a little bit, right.

But they became bigger and bigger. Today, they really are cult,

an irrevocable thing, also international.

- They did great soundtracks too. - Yes.

From "Harold and Maude", Mother Sky, right?

In any case, I have been very lucky with it.

I was also able to work with them very well.

By the way, here we see yet another main protagonist of the movie.

In addition to the three male leads there are two cars,

which you didn't see in movie history again.

They are basically characters too.

The army truck and a bit later...

a mobile stall which can only be called a total work of art.

Which we really built from an old Cadillac.

Were those spontaneous ideas?

Yes... and no. You know, it's like that.

I knew that we needed one car and we needed the other.

We drove around junk yards, then the set designer came with pictures

and we slowly put it together.

Here, we added a roof on top.

It was without roof which we then assembled,

because I thought that you only should guess the characters in it.

- And the pin-up girl in front... - Yes, of course.

I have to add to Adorf,

there were different versions of the movie.

We established a co-production in Italy which then fell through,

since the co-producer didn't have the money.

At the end, we had actually run out of money. When we started with the movie,

the money to try unsuccessful attempts was gone,

except for 250,000 Deutschmarks.

Actually this was a prize for which you couldn't realize this movie.

And in this one version

there was Lionel Stander as Charles Dump.

Meaning that Adorf's part was supposed to be played by Lionel Stander.

I met Stander in Rome with the co-producer who somehow initiated this,

we sat together and Lionel Stander was a great old gangster actor

and had a new career through Polanski.

You know him as a butler from "Hart to Hart..."

This is Lionel Stander.

And in this version,

in the first production version, Mario Adorf was destined to play the guy

who will arrive by car here any minute. I think, his name was Enzo.

Yes, exactly.

And when the thing burst,

this pseudo-big German-Italian co-production

and I couldn't pay Lionel Stander anymore, Adorf said to me:

"Roland, I would rather play the leading part of Charles Dump."

I said to him that he's too young.

"Roland, make me as old as you like!"

"If I play the part I become as old as you want me to!"

He really did! He gained 20 pounds,

so it fitted!

Here, the cameraman lies on a blanket.

On a real horse blanket.

We pulled it before him, that's why we are so far down.

Even with a dolly, you cannot get this far down beneath a guy.

It was a blanket.

He had a bubble under his arm for the blood.

When he suddenly stops and the blood is running out,

he is just pressing the arm on it and the

blood goes through the tube into the wound.

Did the certainly adventurous, but for the time not atypical production history

influence the content? For there are obvious...

Now I want to watch Mascha for a moment. But I will address the question.

This is Mascha's first appearance, that is why I didn't...

want to miss it. There are three, four fans behind her and are blowing her hair.

- Yes, it's like that... - The question hasn't been asked yet.

Ask! I answer the question.

Of course... This is, by the way, Betty Segal, a famous actress in Tel Aviv.

I think it's fantastic that she played the part like this!

So the way there was a fight for money, and so is the movie.

That's right, you're absolutely right! There was a very strong influence,

but it was of a mental kind.

I think the main influence was,

that I only had for this movie 300,000 I've been receiving for a script award.

However, the movie cost one and a half

million. That was a lot of money back then.

No TV station, no co-producer was involved.

The Italian attempt cost 50,000,

because we stayed in the best hotels and had to always act up

as movie producers,

and within a short time, 50,000 were gone.

Then the whole thing collapsed

and we had 250,000 left.

Back then, I had a production manager,

who was a very brave man and he said: "Roland, let's try this thing."

"Can we finish the shoot with this money?"

"If we are economical..."

I can't be economical, I have to make a movie!

To cut a long story short: we shot the movie for 250,000,

which was an adventure! We've sent down 15 cars,

the light machines... through the desert! Shipping from Genoa and Trieste!

Before, Adorf got a lot of money.

Meaning, it was extremely meager!

There were stories I shouldn't tell, but now I can tell them.

I had a producer who had a success with "The Technique of Physical Love",

it was Mister Krausser. He made a porno with wooden dolls

which was very successful.

The dolls in different positions...

And he was an old soldier and a nice guy,

and somebody said to me to go to Krausser, he has a lot of money.

So I met with Krausser, he had this scar on his forehead and he said:

"Roland, I like the script, but I'm an old soldier and one thing I know,

you will be the preferred target of the guerillas and the Al Fatah.

If you are shooting there, you won't get out in one piece!

"And that's why I don't give you money!"

I said: "Fine, Mister Krausser...

you are telling me that if we get out in one piece you'll give me the money?"

He said okay if we get out in one piece and finish shooting he'll give me 50,000.

Now we were down there, finished shooting,

but we couldn't pay our bills.

The partners down there legitimately retaining the equipment.

The cars and so on. They wanted to release them only in case the 50,000 are paid.

So I flew to Krausser, it was in spring.

Arrived in Munich, stepped into my old Jaguar, rushing to Berlin

and got into a mass accident because of black ice.

Crash into it with 200 km/h, ending up in hospital in Hof,

got stitched up like in a field hospital, the nurses were yelling at me,

it was a total mess.

I said I cannot stay here, I need to go to Krausser,

and arrived with a bloody turban.

The blood was dripping into his office

and he said:

"Hahaha, Klick, didn't I tell you before?"

I said: "You're wrong, Krausser, this happened at Hof!"

Not Negev, on the highway!

And he handed me the money.

He said: "It is okay, you finished it."

So I paid ransom for the crew. Otherwise, the whole thing would have blown up.

There was this stroke of luck and another small one.

We were able to do it with these 250,000

but I had the material. And we didn't do it cheaply!

I was also trying to prevent this shortage of money

from influencing the production.

But the best thing was

that the crew always knew that we didn't have any money.

Everyone knew.

And this created an incredible solidarity.

We are not talking about extra hours but it was as if

as you mentioned before, movie history and production history became one.

It was about pulling through and not to end up as a loser.

And it really happened.

In the scenes which we have seen so far

it certainly came across

at least my generation in the audience perceived it back then,

that the movie has formal reference points toward the spaghetti westerns,

which was blooming back then.

Meaning the conscious externalization of the characters,

that the internal life of the protagonists is transformed into the action.

Absolutely right. What actually is cinematically right.

Coming from Germany, this wasn't very common.

At the same time, however, there have always been highlight moments like this,

mostly coming from the plot itself, from Marquard Bohm's feverish dreams,

since he has a gunshot wound.

Images, brief shots which looked like an underground movie...

Now, here's the great car...

Yes... should I tell you something about it?

I just tell you quickly that this is Sigurd Fitzek.

A great... forgotten,

passed away a long time ago...

There were no parts for him!

Who once gave me the greatest fear experiences of my childhood.

- He did in... - "Stahlnetz", right?

Where he played the child kidnapper, it was called "Rehe".

Yes, a wonderful actor! Powerful...

I just want to say some quick words on the car, before we return to the topic.

This car should have been driving through the desert for weeks now.

How do you cover it in dust?

I told my assistant director: "Get the car dusty!"

So the guy takes a rug and puts dust on it, everywhere.

It looked heartbreakingly bad.

So we did the following:

We built up a wind machine in front of the car, took buckets full

of salt water, the Dead Sea is very close, and poured them over the car,

and finally we blew the sand with the wind machine on it.

And this created this structure, you know?

It looked like it has been driven and at the same time, through the salt

you couldn't remove it even with a chisel.

So much for this Cadillac.

It is packed, we really created that.

I assume it is still standing somewhere down there.

But now to the topic.

You know, movies have their temporal background.

And back then, we moved in this strange...

temporal space.

There were The Beatles and so,

the whole hippie movement, the whole drug culture,

these acid dreams, yes?

The blue goddess, this psychedelic culture.

And spaghetti westerns, right?

But there was also, which shows in "Supermarket",

the political dimension. But all of them have not gotten themselves right.

I mean, Baader did somehow act like Bonnie and Clyde.

As they say, in retrospect

Well yes, but you intentionally left out the social world.

I left it out intentionally, however the influencing frame

was set, so to say.

I mean, it is also a political film. "Where's the money?,"

is simply a fantastic line. The whole trailer of the movie

only consists of this one sentence.

Where is the money?

And for this one sentence, the entire world

is beaten to pulp and everyone is killed.

- Where is the money? - But in such a social no man's land,

where the characters are thrown back to themselves and their very own instincts.

I wanted this and that is why nobody wanted to co-finance this movie.

The people weren't able to read this.

You can only read the movie when you are watching.

The sentences are reduced to "Where's the money" or whatever.

- "The bullet stays in." - Yes, "The bullet stays in"!

And that's why it was so difficult. I'm always saying: good scripts,

no one can read those.

Because they get on without the gibberish and without the reflections.

But they express themselves through the representation of the characters,

of the backgrounds and so on, and you cannot read this in the script.

- That's the drama. - Greed, cowardice, courage...

Yes, but also the presence in the face or the

glances, or how the dust is blowing up with Bohm.

It is no coincidence but made with wind machines and fans

at the right moment.

Or she with the little wheel, like a handbag...

Well, and Bohm is great again.

I mean, I find Adorf very, very good as well. Working with him was really very

inspirational and of course he was the professional, right?

And he simply accepted Bohm, which I really appreciated.

He didn't rise himself above him but he did all the stunt stuff,

when he hits his head with the machine gun,

through all this, Adorf did go as well.

This really was a big reward.

Although it is of course certainly, out of

that time, also the fight young against old.

Yes, yes, absolutely right, it is.

And he isn't named Kid for no reason.

He actually represents the dreams from back then, the flower power ideas.

Why can't we share? What's it all about?

Sharing the money, enough for the both of us.

And he does not drag the past around with him, he looks forward.

Which I always find important. You only can present the past

through things like a suit or so.

If you start telling: my father hit me,

the movie ends.

By the way, I did this also with "Supermarket". I strictly avoided

to let people talk about their neuroses.

They exist via the presence, there are police records,

where a little bit happened and this is the wrong guy eventually,

because it applies to all.

Did you see it in a genre tradition,

for example based on foreign movies? For there are people who say

that it is a gangster movie. But there are also people who say it is a western.

And there are people who say it is actually a psychedelic dream,

and the fat actress with her stage is also a Fellini character.

Sure, I had something to do with Fellini and this wasn't for no reason...

These are great images.

By the way, this is the train to Dimona.

It is totally secret since it goes to the clandestine nuclear projects of Israel.

We had to fight. But of course, we had in Israel...

You see, it was after the Six-Day War

and they wanted their country to live again.

They wanted to attract money, bring foreign movie productions to the country,

that is why they practically gave us everything what we asked for.

But this train which later plays a part,

wasn't allowed to stop. We had to enter in Dimona,

rehearse the scene in advance, with the stopwatch...

Here, this a peyote tree, which she swallowed there.

So you're familiar with Dimona, right?

Yes.

So it is a huge honor we were allowed to even film the train.

Actually, it doesn't exist.

And Mascha Rabben is your find as well?

I have once in the 60s,

sometimes I did also make the soundtrack for my movies,

I sang, made music, wrote songs

and I sang in a joint in Hamburg called 'Danny's Pan'.

You could sing there in the evening for a bottle of beer and 10 bucks.

The mood was great and every evening, there was

a 14-year-old girl sitting in the front row,

she looked at me, we flirted, I sang, and that was Mascha.

At some point, we met and ate shrimps in the harbor.

It was all a bit awkward since she was only 14.

And when I was preparing DEADLOCK, I started a huge campaign

and looked for the actress in every German newspaper.

They made a movie about it, it's called "The Chance".

And yet there was none.

Then Maria Schell called me, her husband is a director too,

and said: "We are shooting a movie as well and now that you've seen so many girls,

could you please show us your records, maybe we find someone."

I asked what they wanted. A blonde and so on.

And then I suddenly remembered Mascha.

I said, I know the right girl for her.

I found the address,

it was her mother's or so,

and said they should call her and let her come, it could be the right pick.

One week later, Mascha called me.

"I wanted to see the man who still remembers me after 5 years."

We met and suddenly she is sitting on my couch and I think:

"Are you insane? You're always looking for a

black just because it takes place in Mexico."

Suddenly, just like you mentioned it before regarding the scenery,

the next vision on this character is unfolding from this character.

Because I wanted something completely irrational in this movie.

If there's a black girl running around, whose father is a planter in Mexico...

That she is a redhead and the fact that she shouldn't be in the sun at all,

this is actually the contribution which her presence and God's gift to the world,

this beautiful girl, gave me.

Which is also expressed here.

And who doesn't speak five sentences.

None!

She's mute, doesn't talk. She is touching, her fingers do the talking.

And I honestly have to say although her part isn't really prominent,

a large part of the movie's radiance

came through this girl and it came to me through her.

That was marvelous.

This is great now too, because there all these little...

She's now living in Hollywood and is writing books, Mascha.

I've visited her two or three years ago.

In general, one could say that the film has a three-act structure.

The first third is the confrontation Adorf - Marquard Bohm,

in the second third, Dawson appears who is playing his sadistic games with Dump,

and towards the end, in the third act,

like a show-down, Dawson against Bohm.

- Right. - And now here

the first act slowly ends,

in which there are these little moments of approaching.

Yes. This is beautiful. Basically it is...

You are saying that Dawson is playing his sadistic games,

I'd rather put it this way: Dawson is an old, dying man.

- He has something to prove. - Right. Bohm hasn't.

You know, this results in sadism.

Dawson has to prove to Bohm, that he is still the big, strong...

- And to prove it to himself too. - To himself and others.

He permanently needs to stage brutality.

And Dump needs to try and play the person of authority he allegedly is.

Yes, but it collapses pretty quickly.

The moment Dawson is there, it is actually out of the game.

And that is what I meant earlier. It is a political movie.

Today, I see George Bush or so in this context.

America is actually a dying country.

It must constantly hit somewhere on it,

in order to document its former greatness. Which was not so after the war.

You know, it was a composure.

Once I drove around the Normandy, where the invasion took place,

there was a real faith in this country which materialized itself

in this sacrifice and so on.

Today, he's imitating it to prove how strong he is.

To me, it shows he's not strong.

It's a mechanism, not untypical for humans.

One tries to show more strength the weaker one gets,

up to the apocalypse.

Yes, where, to get back to the movie, this

old-young contrast is also massively featured.

- Precisely. - Back then, it was stronger than today.

Exactly. Today it's blurred, because revolutionary thoughts

are no longer allowed.

Basic welfare.

By the way that was nice, I told Can, I'd like a tango.

They sat down and listened to fifty old tangos.

The whole tango structure is very classical.

Whiskey Tangoman.

This broken-out door is also amazing somehow.

Actually, Bohm is quite tender with regard to Adorf.

He doesn't take him seriously.

Stealing his weapon and putting it back...

That is something you hardly see with German actors, being laconic.

Yes. Laconic, and the German actors always think,

like Klaus L�witsch in these stupid private eye stories,

that strength cannot be expressed through this,

otherwise you also have to throw flowers in the grave.

You know, such sayings.

His strength is in the tenderness.

And also in being light, laconic, and funny.

No, this is the presence, the time but I mean you simply got to have it.

Not many people can.

It's the little gestures,

like how somebody opens a car door, how he is counting a bundle of money.

It's wonderful, just wonderful.

No, Bohm is a star for he has a

deeply hurt soul and it isn't easy shooting with him.

- And here comes Dawson. - Now Dawson is coming.

How did he get into play?

I had different ideas of the bigger structures too,

also with the Italian co-production, and when all this didn't work out,

Adorf recommended him.

Adorf said he isn't the greatest actor but an amazing type.

Adorf recommended him, I just had him flown in,

looked at him, we tried the costume here

and then he was there.

And of course it is also a stroke of luck.

Because he can walk, stand, look,

and that is what makes the character.

One knew him mainly from Hitchcock's "Dial M for Murder".

Exactly, he played the killer with the black hat.

In "Once Upon A Time in the West" he is in the bar scene

as the captain who is breaking in, but these are all small parts.

Actually, this is his first big part

where you recognize him.

And he just felt that I was not letting him act enough.

Thus, we had a tense relationship.

I always said to him: "Listen, Tony...

He always opened his mouth and made a bad face.

...you don't need to make a bad face, the part is bad."

I'll leave it as it is.

He then replied: "Okay, you're the boss, bastard! You are the boss!"

We made this movie with this light touch of humor.

Then I took a terrible revenge, by inviting him to the premiere.

He came with his wife from Rome

and at the end of the movie, he sat in the box and cried

and his wife too!

"See", I said, "Bastard!"

And after that, we became very good friends.

This here is one of my favorite scenes when he does this waving with his hand.

This is his power, not playing the villain somehow.

Actually, you can already see here that Dawson is staging it directly

that he is stealing his weapon.

And he falls for it.

The weapons aren't too bad either. During the last decades

you're getting used to so much stuff so special weapons are quite natural,

- but not back then, right? - No, no, that was all very elaborate,

this killer weapon here.

When he's walking backwards and says "You are playing with your life",

I still have to laugh today.

This is all built here.

Of course, there are no cemeteries.

How big was the team you were with then?

Actually like it can be seen in the book.

Twelve, fifteen people.

The shooting team was very small, on the picture you also see the actors.

Everybody has done everything somehow.

The sound guy at the same time was the driver,

and that's why we didn't have sound at the end,

because he always headed to the airport.

But they still were...

It was all compensated through the zest and joy

and Van Ackeren's professionality, one must admit.

Really amazing how he made his light with composure and clarity.

We had a very good dolly operator, G�nther Bauer,

who, if he ever hears this, should know.

The best operator since "Ben Hur" or so.

He interpreted the colors like Paganini, like an artist.

It was a great collaboration.

There's Pico, a small gaffer.

It was a small team, we had two best boys. A best boy and a

dolly operator who also was best boy. Small.

Then we had a big night scene with 10kW lights.

Once.

I can tell you more about this later, because it is also very funny.

So it was a tiny team,

compared to the usual size.

- Was it shown in Israel as well? - Yes.

And how did they like the way you showed their country?

I've heard it did good.

Unfortunately, I gave away the Israeli rights

since I eventually had financial troubles.

I gave away a lot of countries, to receive the peak founding,

the movie had to get finished. It is not enough that it is shot.

Then there was the Ge yer lab which I really have to thank again.

They really gave me a 250,000 loan for copying.

For nothing!

That guy Grimm came to me, sat on my couch,

I wore those little boots and we were the generation

where you had the feeling that they knew what they were doing, getting things done.

And when he walked out, I had my 250,000 loan.

I mean this is the equivalent of half a million today.

Including compositing, finalization, editing rooms, everything.

At the end, we were a bit short

and I started to sell off my countries.

Adorf loved the movie a lot and at the beginning he said in several talk shows,

it was his favorite, his best and whatnot.

But later, he withdrew a little bit

and I always thought, what's the reason?

Perhaps because he wanted to get away from this image.

He had this good name.

- Age-related, too. - Yes, yes.

And then there was a pretty long feature on Adorf,

and this movie wasn't mentioned.

So obviously...

Apart from that I think it was a lot of fun working with him

and I think he was very good, it is an especially beautiful version of his

presence as an actor. I reckon there's no need to hide it.

No.

The sly guy, you know,

like the fireman in "Ship of the Dead".

There are a few roles that he doesn't want to know about anymore,

but actually they are his best ones for me.

"Bellheim" is of course honorable but...

- In the US with Peckinpah, - "Major Dundee", yes!

Where is playing this Mexican cavalry man.

By the way, we brought the box from Germany.

There was no music box in Israel.

Can you imagine? At least none we could use.

This single record in the suitcase, what was it?

The old Polydor label.

The orange one with the three little crowns.

I don't know anymore, I forgot.

Belongs in a movie museum.

This is now the game phase.

Exactly.

Cat and mouse stories.

Yes...

It's just that the film was very controversial back then.

There were spontaneous fans like Uli here, but he was just 16

and in movie theaters, it worked very well.

It was showing in the Zoo Palast in Berlin and in the largest German cinemas.

At the same time, from the New German Cinema,

there was a lot of reservation since they said it is too commercial

and they wanted to get away from the commercial,

away from the audience,

and to create an art scene in terms of movies,

which kind of doesn't appeal to the audience,

acknowledging it at the box-office but not otherwise.

And not even that. It was a very peculiar mood.

'We as artists need to get into the ivory tower somehow.'

Here, the movie was in incredible disturbance. They felt that it was

betraying the way away from grandpa's cinema,

away from a cinema which also works at the box-office.

I have to say one thing on that:

When a movie works, meaning that you like to watch it,

then you're going to go the cinema.

And when you like to go in a movie,

you have a commercial effect.

This movie has never been shot for the commercial effect!

But it was made so it is a beautiful, powerful, colorful,

amazing movie which I carried in my heart.

And as result, since it worked, because it is simple and magical,

because it has suspense, an oddity, which is conveyed and so on,

it worked at the box-office and that suddenly produced very bad blood.

As if I had my eyes on the box-office!

Was it also a personal turndown?

Actually, there was no reason for that.

It was just that I suddenly found myself

facing a strange front of No in the field of the New German Cinema.

I don't want to name names now.

And on the other side, by the producer's association,

and with the power of the old producers Wendtlandt and Angermeyer,

it was pushed through that this movie is Germany's entry in Cannes.

Of course, this was a huge honor. It was my first own production,

after all my second feature movie.

Of course, I was happy and had so many debts

that I thought, I had a child, my wife had died,

I had a child to support... These were terribly difficult times.

And Cannes for me was the feeling

now there's something starting and the movie is pushed into the world,

this is going to save me financially and even more.

So I sat in my old Jeep, I had a...

By the way, a beautiful scene, love it.

This misunderstanding between these two.

She just wants to look what kind of person this is,

and he wants to take appropriate steps.

Mascha is wonderful.

Anyway...

I drove across the Alps, wearing my hippie shirt,

cruised down to Cannes, and on the Croisette

posters were hanging... DEADLOCK, DEADLOCK, DEADLOCK.

It was like a blessing,

realizing you are in the Cannes competition.

And three days later they've told me

that due to the influencing of young German directors,

Favre Le Bret, head of the festival, an old man back then,

threw the movie out of the competition,

because it wasn't representative of the New German Cinema.

Actually, this is against the regulations.

For the entry, a country itself submits

cannot be thrown out by the head of the festival.

He can throw out a film that he put in himself

and if he changes his mind afterwards, but he's

not allowed to overturn the official entry.

If he accepted it.

The Federal Foreign Office should have protested,

however, Germans do not protest. They adjust their ties,

grovel and instead came up with 5,000 bucks

of the Foreign Office's treasure chest and organized a special screening.

Off the Croisette, in the second row in a movie theater.

They invited all the journalists and there was a huge cold buffet

with lobster tails and so on.

Well, I still was a child and I didn't know what was happening to me,

okay then, let's do it like that.

And just at the moment when the movie was supposed to screen

a hailstorm arrived, with hailstones as big as pigeon eggs

and so nobody was in the theater,

except for three people I brought along,

and one of them was Jodorowsky.

He made "El Topo", which was also screened in Cannes, also very controversial,

and his black press manager, Doris Dynamite.

A very sweet lady. Doris Dynamite.

They sat in the cinema, with an assistant, and me.

Jodorowsky watched the movie,

and he said, which is huge honor for me: "Roland,

this is the best movie at the festival.

Maybe you would have won the award, but that's life."

And then we went for the cold buffet!

We couldn't eat everything up, so we took the tablecloth along

and put everything inside, the hailstorm had stopped in the meantime,

we sat ourselves on the beach and devoured the lobster.

Didn't manage to eat up and had leftovers the next day.

This was the story of DEADLOCK in Cannes.

Yes...

Today you can't even imagine it, but the times were like this.

But this certainly triggered your outsider image within the German scene.

Mainly, yes. I didn't know before.

Something a lot of your fans are enjoying, but everyone -

maybe not as a 16-year-old - later understands

that making movies is something very capital intensive, specialized

and also something where you are tied to certain structures.

That's right.

The story of your movies shows that each one was a fight.

These are nice stories today but they involve your lifetime,

your energy which is fading...

And I would probably have made twice or three times as many films.

What I could probably add for this is my favorite scene now...

Yes, it's an awesome scene!

Let's say I grew up in a country which was remote-controlled in terms of culture.

We were a cultural colony,

through Rock'n'roll and Hollywood...

That wasn't bad and wasn't questioned by the youth.

But someday, you ask yourself whether there is something like that here?

And if, you get German movies, like music comedies,

Winnetou and tralala. This was just...

as if you'd dip a tea bag for the third time in hot water.

And then came a handful of things and DEADLOCK is the best.

But then Fassbinder and others came. What are they, what are they doing?

It was always so 'German'. In addition the Oberhausen manifesto...

This was like an association, so German, with statutes and so on.

There's a famous photo which shows them all,

I always thought to myself that this is the

rabbit breeder association on a staff outing.

Or "Movie distributors of authors", again another organization.

So programmatic, right? And anti-pleasure!

Yes! And they had programs and order... and you...

Well, looking at the pictures of you,

that was simply great. You almost look like a movie character.

That's nice of you to say.

- But it came with a price, right? - Yes, it had a price.

I mean I came to the movie business because I was transferring cars.

Then I got tuberculosis and ended up in a sanatorium for lung patients,

for we were driving 24/7.

Suddenly I had earned a lot of money and wanted to make movies with it,

but I was sitting in Davos

and instead bought me a big car, met my wife there,

she had a lung disease too, the both of us.

But there was no talk of movies, there was talk of Thomas Mann,

since everybody had to read "The Magic Mountain..."

Movies always were a dream. I did the radio station in the sanatorium.

A small station where I did radio plays and other stuff,

in order to keep up. I also staged the "Faust" there

with all those sick patients, which was very beautiful and very exciting.

I was keeping up but I still was far away in the Alps

and developed a vision of how I would like to make movies.

Meaning that I wasn't familiar with this entire political structure,

of 'we have to replace the old cinema'!

'Actually' not familiar with, in this damn valley.

Then I went to Munich, looking to be close to movie people,

made the 'Munich-Film' with the American, a student movie,

this was my movie school,

and then I started to make movies on my own,

just the way I imagined it.

This included the audience as an integral part.

Because for me, if I'm the man, a woman also belongs to a loving couple!

Meaning that there's a mutuality!

I have always been accused of currying favor.

Do I curry favor with the woman when I want her to like it?

This is absolutely ridiculous!

For me, film is communication! This is part of my style!

Having the right rhythm, coming across, yes?

This isn't currying favors but the essence of cinema!

Those vibrations between the maker and those in front of the screen.

And back then, they always said it's about the people.

It was always about people. But back then, they forgot,

that in front of screens are also people!

They somehow had been denounced as audience.

As an audience you shrugged off.

In this regard, the whole style hasn't been evolved out of the idea,

to make commercial cinema, but out of desire to communicate!

And it worked.

And I think, it becomes clearer and clearer today

that this way is eventually the right one.

It was always the right one and still is,

for there is no other country which has such strange structures.

Where people, especially in the 70s,

made several movies, proving that they aren't able to,

and nobody cared whether anyone was interested.

- I don't want to belittle them. - No!

But I mean, once you met them semi-publicly,

they were immensely cynical and despised the audience...

Those you have addressed here.

I witnessed it several times, for that what I'm saying now,

I also said on stage, during discussions, for example in Duisburg,

during the Duisburg Film Festival,

I have literally been booed down!

- You have no idea! - I do!

"Little Boy" for instance has been booed,

not in the cinema but afterwards at the press conference,

because I always pleaded for the movie to speak for itself.

And someone in the audience said, coming from one of the journalists:

"Well, in this case I hope you will earn a lot of money with the movie!"

I mean, "Little Boy" is absolutely not made to earn money!

- If so, you would have made the next one. - It simply works!

If movies are working, it is of course possible

that something happens at the box-office, yes?

But to assume that this is the only reason,

this was a prehistoric criterion, very weird.

Just the fact that the movie's working, his images are built in a way

that the rhythm and the music can work like this,

was already seen as corruption, strangely enough.

This is difficult...

Hard to comprehend! Of course, I suffered a lot from it,

I say this all honesty because it caused me many difficulties

at financing. The next, I had to start from scratch.

On the other side, this is nice too,

if everything does not go so smoothly, because you can also...

How do I put it? I already started in the 60s,

to pen about film theory and to express and articulate

my whole concept.

Thus, I became more aware of what I was doing.

At the same time, you also lived.

I mean, you can see that in the films in thousands of details.

You certainly didn't do a holdup to illustrate speed.

And if so, I wouldn't tell.

There are a lot of things in "Supermarket",

where you recognize the streets.

That's right. I cannot complain at all,

because actually I had a nice life

and made those things I wanted to, but I wanted to do a lot more.

And it certainly loomed large

that I couldn't just call the station and tell

them that I'm going to make my next movie,

but this whole cinematic form

kind of verified itself out of it

and today is rather without dispute.

Did you have opportunities or the goal, the vision,

to leave Germany behind you and to go to countries with a real cinematic culture?

Well, they tried to get me to Hollywood. Scorsese was here, Spielberg was here,

one producer watched DEADLOCK on a plane,

the one who produced "Marathon Man",

and he belonged to the scene of young, American producers.

He absolutely wanted to get me over there, but then I was remarried to Eichinger,

and of course my family situation,

it wasn't easy to just go over there.

In other words: Somehow...

Spielberg presented "Jaws" here, I sent my girlfriend along,

because I was in the middle of shooting for

Eichinger in Berlin 'Dear Fatherland Be At Peace'.

But then I also bet on Eichinger. I didn't underestimate Spielberg either

and neither did my girlfriend Maggie.

She became friends with him and he also wanted to get she over

to the American academy of film.

These were close contacts,

but somehow, they didn't realize.

Yes, here, Mario's scene.

It is a wonderful achievement as a human and a person.

He ran at my request

before each scene ten, fifteen times around the house,

until he couldn't anymore.

I ran the first two or three times in solidarity,

like I always do.

He said: "No, I'll do it, I have to be in the picture."

And the panting here, the trembling,

he really got it from this exhaustion.

Meaning when Mario...

Look at this! You cannot act like that!

See?

Fifteen times around the house. That is where this comes from.

I think it is terrific when actors...

This is like sacrificing.

But he wanted it. He wanted it as well.

He has an incredible will to do things as good as possible.

He's very similar to Dennis Hopper in this regard.

He just added cocain.

Mario does it with certain techniques. But this will,

being the best and nothing else, this is great.

And you also owe a lot to it. Also in the next scene we are going to watch.

Then this rat, that wasn't easy.

To somehow let them run as they should.

This rat played the part sixty times.

And each time it was finished, the whole team raced on

trying to catch the rat again, because we just had two or three rats.

- Brought along, or what? - No, we had them from the

- veterinary institute in Tel Aviv. - House rat.

They were kept in a cage.

You can't imagine, this rat...

The one who caught it had a lot of fun.

A beautiful theme here.

Jaki Liebezeit at the guitar.

Can...

When did you come up with the title?

Back then, was an English title a problem here in Germany?

I didn't feel that.

I thought from the beginning that the title should be English.

We had the title 'Bloody Sunshine' as a proposal,

then there was the title 'Showdown'...

DEADLOCK is great but not many people know what it means.

Yes but somehow... Look, this is a crazy scene.

They told me the speed of the train and so were able to rehearse it,

then I imagined how fast they are and we ran it with the stopwatch.

We calculated where the train was supposed to be and we marked it on the ground.

And we only had the train once, we only could shoot it once.

It started in Dimona, with the camera crew,

Adorf stood on a rock and from this moment on, it had to work.

Only once it didn't quite work out when Adorf came out of the picture.

He didn't pay attention then. I always told him...

That's the production manager, he already died.

He also contributed significantly to the fact that we dared to do this at all.

Dieter Schoenemann.

A marvelous production manager.

Shot it once.

They asked me in Hollywood how many times I did shoot this.

Once.

But... I died beforehand.

Now, here's Enzo's second and also last appearance.

This betrayal topic wasn't so important, right?

Between Bohm and Dawson.

That he's the guy who shot him after the holdup.

Actually, the betrayal happened immediately.

He tried to kill him right away.

I didn't emphasize it. Those who understand...

By the way, this was nice as well. A pyrotechnician was in the car,

he came from the army, no movie pyrotechnician.

He sat in the car and ignited when he heard the shot.

It is psychological important too, I think,

that Dump becomes guilty,

- by shooting. - Yes, yes!

Yes, that's important, he was right.

- So far, he's always been the victim. - He also goes over dead bodies.

This is an amazing shot. Look, now he's walking there

and then I did something I developed.

I always noticed that when characters look from right to left,

the character on the right is always stronger.

Because this is the sunrise, kind of.

From left to right is the normal writing direction,

but the Jewish writing direction as revelation writing

is coming from the east with the sunrise.

Here, did you see?

If I want both characters to be strong, I'm dolly shooting across the axis.

He just did it while I was yakking.

You know, one looks right-left,

and if I want the other person to do this too in the next shot,

I move across the axis and he has also right-left.

Depends on the axis. I did this in several movies.

Doing a dolly shot across the axis.

Unfortunately, this was all while I was yakking here.

But through this I accomplish that one person is strong,

then I move over and the other one is getting strong in this perspective too.

Otherwise, one has always the weaker position.

In the big westerns, the Indian attacks always come from the right.

Trains rolling into the frame, they always come from the right.

Everything dynamic is coming from the right.

And if you now want to give two figures an equal dynamic,

you can create it by moving across the axis,

then both are coming from the right.

Otherwise, if one comes from the right, the other has to come from the left,

in the case of cut and reverse cut, but once you move over,

during the shot, you can avoid this principle.

This fly here.

That's Bohm...

with these nice hand gestures.

One could say to the visuals...

You see, the fly. This is simply...

...there are hardly any zooms as opposed to most spaghetti westerns.

- Or none. - Hardly any.

Imperceptible. I just used them to enhance a natural dolly move.

When the camera is moving anyways and you realize

you need a little more pressure on the dolly rail,

- you can do it like that. - This is a stylistic device,

you associate most with it.

But this barrenness also forbids it a bit.

Well, and here...

We did these shots ceaselessly.

And Adorf went all the way.

He really got exhausted, was very happy and said:

"Well, now you see it."

And it's this physical presence which makes it eventually so believable.

For me, this is a typical scene where the old guy has to prove

that he's the strong one.

He really could have let him go.

- He's saying it also, right? - Yes, exactly.

He says to him: "You have to show me what a strong man you are..."

Kid is saying that.

Here, Dawson is also very good, simply with this expression.

The first poster showed this scene.

It is surely difficult to nuance something like this

since you had this plot-wise 500 times before.

Now I wanted to tell you how we shot this.

Contrary to one version Adorf put into the world,

but he's telling beautiful stories so I don't want to take this from him.

We assembled a platform in front of the car which was 9 feet long

and Adorfwhen he was hitting the car, walks on the platform,

which you cannot see from the camera's perspective,

towards the hood where we attached a sponge with blood,

he hits it with his head, has blood on his forehead,

gets up and let himself fall on the platform.

This creates the impression that he's vanishing under the car.

Then something's juggling as if they were

rolling over him and he's flying out the back.

That's how we shot it.

And Mario said that we were planning to let him jump into a hole,

which is completely absurd. A best boy back then said

that there ought to be a hole. Yes, correct.

Of course we were brainstorming, a stunt like that is evolving over many days.

As I said, since I always appreciated Adorf's stories,

he was also entertaining the entire crew back then.

Beautiful stories about how he shot with Brigitte Bardot.

It was completely irrelevant whether they

were true or not, they were very diverting,

and since we didn't have any TV in the desert, we enjoyed them a lot,

and that's why he shouldn't stop telling this story.

It's part of his charm, even if it's a fairy tale.

But we shot it the way I just told you.

It took a lot of effort to figure out how to really hit a person with a car

and not like in a normal stunt

somehow flies upward,

but vanishes under the car but you see that the car is rolling!

I'm still proud of it.

Even in this hole, each prop is there on purpose.

It's so great, so atmospheric.

Also the wind, which you don't hear now, if the lamp squeaks so quietly...

- Oh no, that comes only afterwards. - And the broken off hand from

this cardboard cowboy.

These were also things I felt from the spaghetti westerns.

There are these mill wheels which are causing strange noises.

I have this in all my movies, this noise level.

Sometimes, up to 18 to 20 tapes were running.

Oil pumps in American movies.

Yes, I totally love it.

This is 'Musique concr�te', really true.

A real soundtrack.

Now here's Mascha, the little one.

Plays beautiful woman.

After the movie, Steve McQueen invited her to Paris,

seemed like he watched the movie there.

He made a racing movie. It was "Le Mans", right?

- It was "Le Mans". - She went there,

McQueen put his feet on the table and Mascha thought

that his behavior wasn't decent, so she left.

- Well, this is good! - Totally funny, totally cute.

Then she disappeared with Bhagwan to Pune,

she helped building the commune and then started

writing scripts and translating and now lives in Hollywood as an author.

I can't imagine any other woman in this part.

When I think about it... It's just Mascha.

Now there's the gorgeous love scene.

Bohm said: "My dick? Only over my dead body!"

"My dick isn't in the shot!" I said: "Marquard, we need this scene.

Come on, we do it very tender and fine." "No! Never!"

Well... And then one day,

for the external shots where they're shooting at him at night,

we had 10 brutes with 10kw coming from Tel Aviv.

With trucks, transportation costs 10,000 bucks with best boys!

When you are shooting at night in the desert,

there's no light around like in the city,

but you need to light up the whole desert, so you are able to film

and then you darken the color grading.

These ten brutes were assembled, plus the ten best boys...

You know, those brutes, huge things! The entire desert was illuminated!

Then Marquard came along and said: "Roland...

today, I could shoot this love scene."

"Today, I feel like doing it."

There he has sold his little dick expensive.

The production manager went crazy! "Roland, you can't do it!"

"These things cost 10,000 bucks!"

"Is his cock worth it?"

I said: "Listen, have a look by yourself, it's worth it."

And Marquard wouldn't have made the scene.

This was the price.

Of course, it's beautiful, also with the music by Can.

Look, Mascha's fingers.

Look, only she can do it.

So innocent...

These are marvelous actors, also as persons...

If you have a closer look at what's happening in the face.

Simply unique...

But the price... it was paid!

This is also classical.

The smokes, the gun, the suitcase.

The suitcase...

And he with his dirty jokes.

That had been shut down a long time ago, right?

Yes, very long.

I really re-built it. We put in electricity,

we had to do everything.

We had a generator, had to install telephone lines,

on the other hand, it was my Hollywood as well, I could do what I wanted to.

I could break through walls...

- It was great. - No watchdogs?

Oh, nothing of the sort, no one cared!

We hired a few Bedouins as a kind of patrol,

so someone watched at night that nothing got stolen.

I often sat with them at the campfire

and at the end, they stole the props.

Because they didn't understand why such a lighter is suddenly important,

since it was once in a shot.

Beautiful how Mascha approaches.

She had to run this way twenty times, at the end she just cried,

so the tears are real.

Of course it was difficult on high heels, and to exactly coordinate

with the dolly shot in the background.

- Was it very hot? - It was like 60 degrees in the shadow!

It is the hottest spot on Earth!

Death Valley and over there, there are constantly fighting where it's hotter.

And he's in a turtleneck.

Yes, yes...

And I had to run around in a black jacket,

so you wouldn't see my reflection in the windows.

That's why there's pictures of me in the book

where I'm wearing a black leather jacket.

I'm sitting in front of the window, and without it you'd see my reflection.

Completely in black.

Like a Tuareg.

By the way: the whole car sounds have been generated synthetically.

This clapping has been made in the studio.

We had no original soundtrack.

That was mean, small, unprofessional,

because we hadn't a real equipment, no real sound editor,

you were supposed to roughly know what the people were saying.

The whole soundtrack is synthetically, the same with "Supermarket".

I love it because I can play and make music with each clapping

of the car, of the tin.

Or the ignition when he lets the car roll down,

it is all manufactured.

As if it wouldn't ignite otherwise just like a synchronous processing.

Yes, yes, each time he's shifting the gear with a bang.

But still surely not a quiet truck.

No, I got a truck that sounded right to me,

recorded its sounds and integrated them here.

Together with Kramski and Kutbay, the two

stars of the sound editor scene back then.

With tin, buckets, and cans. They also created the sounds for "Das Boot".

The whole tin in "Boot" also comes from those two.

This here is way before "Das Boot".

This here is also a dolly shot, I love those dolly shots.

Suddenly, the ascending can be emphasized completely different.

See, my dear friend, there you have it.

There still was some room for improvisation,

or was everything in the script beforehand?

This is all staged, however, spontaneity

and staging is no contradiction in my world.

Since I observe the people so closely,

so I just know what they would do spontaneously.

I'm writing this down before while I'm building up the whole thing,

also the camera work with the camera man,

and then it's "I would have done it anyway",

"That's why you get it, go on."

You know, hands to the hips, stuff like that.

This is one of my basic concepts of direction,

that there are no differences between spontaneity and staging.

Because both derive from the physicality and spirituality of the actor,

and not from some director's mind somewhere sitting at a desk.

Now he learns or we learn

the precursor of the fact that the bullet in his arm

had been shot by Anthony Dawson, alias Sunshine.

And in a posture which shows very clearly

that he's waiting for the final reckoning.

He's waiting for the final reckoning, right.

Meaning this conflict in which Dawson tries to outwit him,

did actually already happen during the holdup,

when they were robbing the money.

Still he was stronger because he had the money.

Exactly, there was a situation where he was

able to get away and the other couldn't.

There was the appointment to meet here again.

But the betrayal actually already happened in the past.

By the way, this was also addressed at

night, when they were lying there in the dark

and Adorf is trying to snatch the suitcase. And he's saying:

"Someone shot at me."

That's where he addresses it the first time.

So a classic showdown is in the offing.

And in the classic showdown, as we just agreed, no one can back down.

- Right, otherwise it wouldn't be one. - Otherwise it wouldn't be one.

Here comes the music.

The other turns on the music to remind him of the old friendship.

This is like a hint.

Already from the position of the strongest, right?

Yes but he's still looking for an understanding.

"We used to be friends and listened to the same record at Lilly's."

But...

Anthony Sunshine...

knows that this is the last fight. Either he wins or he dies.

Actually, he knows.

He cannot share.

The question arises whether Kid would now also be willing to share.

I think so, yes.

Sunshine has his share.

- He got the leather bag. - Right, sorry.

It's already divided.

He just got it into his head that he wants the whole thing.

- Here, a dolly shot again. - And he's good there.

An infinite sadness, despair...

He can do that. But in the moment when he's supposed to become dramatic,

it's getting centered.

Where's the money?

It's yours.

Sitting somewhere in the desert, waiting...

Even when it's not a showdown...

- You certainly like also "Wages of Fear". - Of course!

One of the most gripping...

You are never gonna find it without me.

Well, and now the situation occurs...

...that Sunshine is blackmailing him by threatening to shoot the girl.

One could assume, one could say...

He has a choice.

Bohm could save the girl by giving in.

That's the trap he's in.

"Don't do it, Sunshine", he says.

But he doesn't say: "I'll give you money."

This is, kind of, his tragic complicity.

He could save her but he's unable...

...to get out of this confrontation.

Psychological, for himself, without losing his pride.

Yes, this is the scene he is acting there.

In the background, there's still the shooting over the clothes.

You see the shots in the back.

Of course, Dawson's very good here.

- It also contains a death wish. - Yes, yes.

So, and out of six characters now only one is still alive.

Well, with "Supermarket"...

Obviously, I'm a person who likes ambivalence...

Not a real happy ending and not really tragic, but in my case an ambivalence,

such an ending. It also leaves everything open.

The hero stays lonely.

And leaves. A little bit like in "The Third Man".

The hero stays lonely. Actually, this is a classical western too.

You know, he's riding out of town at the end. Maybe he took care of everything,

or maybe he didn't.

But the happy ending when he says: "Baby, you need to learn how to speak now..."

Not... this.

But in "Supermarket" it is different, isn't it?

Yes, sure.

But somehow, the lonely hero is shown at the end...

- And you know what happens. - Yes, yes.

Well, yes, but maybe he is dying.

You do not know.

Well, that's it in a nutshell.