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MAN SHOUTING
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30 years ago, a book was published
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that lit a fire across the country.
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The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie
sparked a culture war...
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MAN SHOUTS IN OWN LANGUAGE
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..between Muslims who believed
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they were defending the honour
of their prophet,
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and the fundamental right
to free speech.
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This programme contains strong language.
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Took it out of the bag,
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and somebody with a match
came and put it on fire.
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30 years on, how do those
who made a stand feel now?
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If you are to say to me,
do I regret it, do I apologise it?
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Could we have done anything
different?
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I would say no.
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The conflict set off
a chain reaction
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that we're still dealing with today.
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It was the best gift ever
for the National Front.
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The best gift ever.
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The Salman Rushdie affair was kind
of a turning point in my life -
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from that moment onwards,
I did start to take on
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some of these kind of
more extreme ideas.
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PROTESTORS CHANTING
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If you think the Satanic Verses
story is over, think again.
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It's a critique of religion.
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It's useful.
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Oh, come on, then. Come on, then!
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Come on, then!
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You BLEEP!
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Come on, then!
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Need the book?
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Can I have my book? BLEEP you!
I'm going to burn this book.
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Support us and become VIP member
to remove all ads from www.OpenSubtitles.org
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My name is Mobeen Azhar.
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I'm a second-generation
British Muslim.
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So I think you know what
you're going to say.
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But, you know,
I'm keeping an open mind.
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I'm a journalist and a radio
presenter on the BBC Asian Network.
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BBC Asian Network. Mobeen Azhar.
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I was born and raised in
Huddersfield, West Yorkshire,
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but now live in London.
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Despite the powerful impact The
Satanic Verses had on my community,
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until now, I'd never read the book.
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I've got a copy of
The Satanic Verses in my house.
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I, for a long time,
thought it was...
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..maybe to do with witchcraft
or something.
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Or, you know, is it a bit demonic?
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But the concept
is actually something
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that is in Islamic history.
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There were verses
that could have, at one point,
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made their way to the Koran.
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There is an account
where the prophet is visited
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not by the angel Jibreel...
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..but by Satan.
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And Satan comes in disguise,
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and whispers to him.
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So Salman has written here,
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"The devil came to him
in the guise of the archangel
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"so that the verses he memorised,
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"the ones he recited in the poetry
tent, were not the real thing,
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"but its diabolic opposite -
not godly, but satanic."
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It's a work of fiction
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which features a character called
Mahound and his 12 wives,
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and it's loosely based on
the life of the Prophet Muhammad,
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which to Muslims is sacred.
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It doesn't say
the name "Muhammad" here,
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but instead, what you have
is "Prophet Mahound".
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Now...
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..Mahound, if you trace back
the word,
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it's a word that was used
in the Middle Ages by Christians
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to describe the Prophet Muhammad.
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It's not a nice word, it means...
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.."corrupt" or "of the devil".
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Rushdie's chosen it, and it refers
to Muhammad in a derogatory way.
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How many wives?
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Twelve.
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How many whores?
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Twelve again.
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The Prophet in his lifetime
had 12 wives,
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and in Rushdie's account,
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they have the same names
as the Prophet's wives.
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Of course it's a work of fiction.
But it's very much based...
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..on what is in Muslim history.
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These are real things
that we're sensitive about.
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Is it a surprise that you've had
the depth of reaction from...
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Well, I think... ..the community?
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Certainly the scale of it
is a surprise to me
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and also is a great distress to me.
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I think what's true about the book
is that it does break
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a number of taboos, which in my
view are very important to break.
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The first is the idea that
Muhammad's life cannot be discussed
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as if he was a human being.
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Muhammad himself always insisted
not to have divine status.
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And yet nowadays, we talk about him
as if he was a perfect being.
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So yes, I think it's very important
if the culture of a religion
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is to have an intellectual life,
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that such things
should be discussed.
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And of course the people
who wish to control thought,
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the thought police - that's who's
responsible for this action -
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don't wish one to do that.
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British Indian Salman Rushdie
was born in Mumbai in 1947
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and brought up a Muslim.
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His family came to the UK
in the '60s, where he studied
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at Cambridge University.
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Known for combining magical realism
with historical fiction,
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the award-winning Satanic Verses
was his fourth novel.
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I believe Salman Rushdie
was completely entitled
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to write the book.
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Now I want to explore
the consequences
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The Satanic Verses
had on my community.
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CHANTING
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When people hear the word
Satanic Verses, they think about
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how that community responded.
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I want to know
what happened to those people.
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I want to know why they responded
the way they did.
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I want to know
if they regret any of it.
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SHOUTING
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I'm heading home to Yorkshire,
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to where the infamous
book-burning took place.
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I want to hear from
the people behind the protests,
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who rarely make it on to
the mainstream media.
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00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,160
My parents came to Britain
from Pakistan
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as economic migrants in 1963,
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then headed north to settle
and raise a family.
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The North of England could be
a tough place to bring up children
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for working-class people,
let alone for those getting to grips
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with a new culture and climate.
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How many of your family are there
living in this house now?
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Ten.
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Do you find it overcrowded at all,
with ten people in three rooms?
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No, I don't think so.
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00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,240
The Pakistani immigrants
who moved here mostly found work
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as mill workers and taxi drivers.
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00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,640
NEWSREADER: Asian workers were not
paid overtime, received less holiday
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and had non-existent chances
of promotion.
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They must understand our laws,
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00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,200
our ways of life,
our food and our clothes.
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00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,720
For my parents' generation, fitting
into British life came at a cost.
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00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,120
Our children are losing
their Islamic identity.
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Each day that goes by,
a Muslim child is lost.
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And everyday racism was commonplace.
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At school, you get on perfectly well
with the white boys?
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The white boys don't play with me.
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Do they not play with just you,
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or with any of the coloured...
With any coloured boys.
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00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,600
NEWSREADER: Workers Against Racism
say racist attacks in Bradford
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are becoming common.
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In 1988, when the Satanic Verses
was published,
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some Muslims decided
enough was enough
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and it was time to make a stand.
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I'm on my way to meet a key player
in what happened next -
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00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,000
local Muslim community leader
Mohammad Siddique.
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There is enormous amount of filth
and abusive language,
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with a view of denigrating Islam,
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and thinking of millions of Muslims
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all over the world as barbarians.
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THEY EXCHANGE GREETINGS
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Mohammad? Can I call you
Mohammad or Siddique? Yes, you can.
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How are you doing?
Fine, thank you.
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Really nice to meet you.
Thank you. Come in.
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I got you something.
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You look a bit nervous.
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Are you nervous with this?
Not any more, no.
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It's a book that we've been
familiar with for quite a long time.
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The Muslim community
felt so disgusted about it
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that this book needed
the attention of the government,
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in terms of repealing
the law of blasphemy
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to include Muslims as well.
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In Britain, blasphemy laws
at the time protected Christianity,
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but no other faiths.
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So Mohammad and members of
the fledgling campaign group
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Bradford Council of Mosques
felt they had little choice
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but to tackle the issue themselves.
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We've been through a campaign.
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We wrote a lot of letters to MPs,
local councillors, government,
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asking them to ban the book.
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And unfortunately, they didn't.
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And nobody seemed to be sympathetic
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with what we were saying
was in the book.
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Before Bradford Council of Mosques
decided what action to take,
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Mohammad was chosen
to read the book on their behalf.
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I was criticised a lot, because
people were saying to me,
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"You read the book and you decided
not to do anything about it.
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"What's going on? Why are we
in this sort of situation?"
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And all this situation
was new to us at that time.
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So as a last resort, we decided
to put the book on the fire.
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And what happened here,
with the book?
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Once it was decided that the book
was going to be put on fire,
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if we had a book this thick
and set it on fire with a match,
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it wouldn't work.
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You need something inflammable
which catches fire quickly.
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You put in the preparation. Yes.
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You open the book here.
Put some paraffin all over.
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We had a stalk, here. Yeah.
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And then we put some nails
through them there.
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You crucified the book?
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No, I haven't crucified the book.
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But, I mean, you did nail it
to a stick. Yes, that's right.
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00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,200
And then put that whole thing
in a black bag.
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00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,240
Have you got a black bag?
Yes, I have.
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00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,680
Can you grab it? And you'll be
asking me to pin it down, and...
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00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:31,960
No, no, we're not actually
going to set it on fire.
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We're not going to do that?
I don't think so.
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Those times are gone. Because
I wouldn't be doing that now.
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Mohammad Siddique was joined
by over 1,000 Muslim demonstrators
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in Bradford on that fateful day.
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In full view of the police
headquarters, Mohammad brought out
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his fuel-soaked copy
of the Satanic Verses.
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I took it out of the bag.
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00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,800
And somebody with a match
came and put it on fire.
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00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,600
People are shouting, saying,
"Kill the man."
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00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,400
There were people
actually going that far.
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People on the stage saying,
"We are prepared to die
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00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,880
"for the honour of our prophet."
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So people's feelings
were inflamed again.
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00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,840
Setting fire to a book, this being
in flames, holding it up -
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00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,240
were you stoking that fire a bit?
No.
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00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,880
I think the people are only
expressing their feeling,
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00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,680
how they felt at the time.
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00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,760
And, unfortunately, the media
took it in a different way
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00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,880
and Muslims were suddenly seen
as being killers, and Nazis,
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00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,680
and calling for this Jihad,
and things like that.
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00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,480
NEWS REPORT: The book burning
in Bradford,
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00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,000
with its echoes of the Nazis,
was, the Muslims believe,
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00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,560
what was needed to force Britain
to take note of their protests.
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00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:03,720
They say they won't rest till every
copy of the book is destroyed.
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00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,360
When it sunk in, the kind of gravity
of what you've done,
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00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,680
when you saw it
on the front of newspapers,
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00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,400
on the news, all that kind of stuff,
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00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,480
did you think, "Some people
are scared of us"?
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00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,960
They shouldn't be, because Muslims
are peaceful people.
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00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,200
I know, but they were, weren't they?
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00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,520
What we did, at that time,
it was how we felt,
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00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,720
because there was a lot of racism
at that time, and there were a lot
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00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,720
of far right-wing activities
against Muslims.
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00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,160
The demonstration
might have been small,
237
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,080
but it struck a powerful chord.
238
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,320
Many Muslims saw the book
as an assault on their identities
239
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,160
and faith, and they saw the lack
of government action as confirmation
240
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,640
of their status
as third-class citizens.
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00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,720
The underlying anger boiled over,
as seen in this rare footage
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00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,160
from a Bradford Council of Mosques
meeting at the time.
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00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,280
Muslim men - and in those days
244
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,560
it was mostly old men -
led the fightback.
245
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,160
On the front line was general
secretary Liaqat Hussain,
246
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,880
and media liaison and committee
member Ishtiaq Ahmed.
247
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,880
30 years on, I wonder if they regret
any of their actions.
248
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:42,440
KNOCKING
249
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,880
Assalaamu Alaikum.
250
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,880
Nice to meet you. How you doing?
Are you OK? Fine, yes.
251
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,000
Their carefully stored press
cuttings reveal that
252
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,840
the Muslim community,
previously ignored by the media,
253
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,480
was now being depicted
as extremists.
254
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,520
That's... That's me! Is that you?
That's...
255
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:03,680
HE LAUGHS
256
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,320
It says...
257
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,000
HE LAUGHS
258
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,080
You're laughing that it says
"20 ways to spot a mad mullah",
259
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,520
and then there's a picture of you.
260
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:14,920
There's a good reason.
261
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,360
Why are you laughing?
262
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,640
It's funny, isn't it? It's funny.
263
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,920
Looking at that now,
and going back to that day. Yeah.
264
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,360
Did you have any kind of idea
of the impact?
265
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,000
No. I don't think we expect
this kind of impact, response.
266
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,840
We thought that it's going
to attract attention.
267
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,640
But whether we anticipated
the scale of the action....
268
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,800
..to be honest, no.
They've done this how-to guide.
269
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,400
So, you're laughing,
but they're quite serious,
270
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,920
"20 ways to spot a mad mullah.
271
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,320
"Number one - there are 1.7 million
Muslims in Britain, but only a few
272
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,560
"are fanatics ready to die
at the Ayatollah's command.
273
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,560
"Number two - they even expect
their children to die
274
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,160
"for the holy cause."
275
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,640
If you looked at this now,
276
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,480
if this was published,
everyone would go crazy.
277
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,960
The Rushdie affair, in a very clear
kind of way, highlighted to us
278
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,160
that we were not being listened to.
279
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,120
We were not being taken seriously.
280
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,080
We were being pushed against
the wall,
281
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,400
and we had to do something to
make this society
282
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,360
know our sensibilities,
our feelings, our emotions,
283
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,600
were seriously hurt.
284
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,480
We did what we did
in that kind of context. OK?
285
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,480
If you are to saying to me
do I regret it? Do I apologise it?
286
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,440
Could we have done
anything different?
287
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,080
I would say no - not in '88,
not in '89.
288
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,120
30 years on, why is there
no acknowledgement that
289
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,800
maybe that wasn't
the best thing to do?
290
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,200
Maybe it wasn't right to
set fire to a book.
291
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,440
Would we do we do it again?
I don't know.
292
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,080
It's about justice,
it's about equalities,
293
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,800
and it's about taking our identity
very seriously.
294
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,200
Muslims are a community. They are
a people, they are a nation.
295
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,960
The idea that we will assimilate,
and we will just become as they are,
296
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:10,680
is a fantasy.
297
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,120
Muslim groups organised
a massive rally in London,
298
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,680
followed by a week-long vigil
outside Penguin's offices.
299
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,960
Later rallies went beyond
the mere burning of a book,
300
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,960
instead using a life-size effigy
of the author.
301
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,480
The outpouring of rage was driving
a wedge between Britain
302
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,360
and its Muslim community.
303
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,120
And the tabloids ate it up.
304
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,200
There was an eight-foot effigy
of Salman Rushdie in gallows,
305
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,760
set on fire. Is there a part of you
that thinks,
306
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,280
"What these right-wing tabloids
want, we served on a platter.
307
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,320
"We gave them the images."
308
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,560
Do you feel responsible?
309
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,840
The Iranian Revolution...
310
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,160
Actually, you're saying,
"You are to be blamed."
311
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,920
I'm not saying that, I'm saying
we gave them something.
312
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,960
No, we didn't give them...
No, we did not give them that.
313
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,000
Well, I don't take responsibility
for that kind of headlines.
314
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,160
Muslim community
now has a negative projection,
315
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,520
Islam has a very negative
projection.
316
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,280
The responsibility has to be taken
by the British media,
317
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,080
and how our legitimate concerns
were projected.
318
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,480
We were actually put into
a situation that we felt,
319
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,560
as a community, we had no option.
320
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,400
We were still being treated
as a minority,
321
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,000
as an immigrant minority,
who had come to this country
322
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,520
and hopefully one day we will leave.
323
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,240
Back then that may have unleashed
all kinds of other things.
324
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,520
But those other kind of things...
325
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,400
We had no control, and I don't take
any responsibility for that.
326
00:17:54,120 --> 00:18:00,440
Ishtiaq and Liaqat served up this
caricature of what Muslims are like,
327
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,080
and what Muslim men are like.
328
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:08,720
So angry, shouting, bearded men
on the streets making demands.
329
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,800
They served up that caricature.
330
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,440
And what happened then is the media
chewed that caricature up
331
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,280
and it spat it out, and the results
of that they've been living with,
332
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,960
and we've been living with,
ever since.
333
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,040
I said it is uncivilised
in the first place
334
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,560
to write a book like this.
335
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,800
How would you feel if somebody
comes to you, and call you
336
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,480
or your father a bastard, call
your mother a whore, prostitute.
337
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:44,600
What would you feel?
338
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,360
While Britain was at the centre
of the Satanic Verses storm,
339
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,400
the book was never banned
on these shores.
340
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,880
But in Pakistan and the Arab world,
341
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,280
the book was met with
an even more violent response.
342
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,960
The Satanic Verses are banned
throughout the Islamic world.
343
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,400
The protests directed
at the United States embassy
344
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,720
in Islamabad followed the
publication of the book in America.
345
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,720
The police turned to using
real bullets.
346
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,200
And the result was all too lethal.
347
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,880
Five people have died...
..and at least 60 injured...
348
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,640
..and a day after,
one man was killed
349
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,080
in neighbouring Kashmir...
350
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,120
..the controversy over Salman
Rushdie's book boosting the position
351
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,760
of the more extreme fundamentalists.
352
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,640
Then, from the Islamic Republic
of Iran, came a call
353
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,840
that would change everything.
354
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,960
On Valentine's Day, Ayatollah
Khomeini issued a fatwa
355
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,640
calling on Muslims around the world
to kill Salman Rushdie.
356
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,880
THEY SHOUT IN OWN LANGUAGE
357
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,120
We will kill you.
358
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,000
The streets of Tehran this morning
were filled with crowds
359
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,040
taking up the cry for
Salman Rushdie's life,
360
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:17,040
their posters gruesomely disfigured,
their demands all too obvious.
361
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,840
Despite their anger, the fatwa
362
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,480
wasn't supported by many Muslims
in the UK...
363
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,760
Emphasis on the way the Muslims
have been carrying out
364
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,480
the activities, the way
they've been protesting,
365
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,000
seems to be a bit overplayed.
366
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,760
Rather than the victims,
we looked as the aggressors.
367
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,680
So do you condemn the death threats?
Certainly, most certainly.
368
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,200
Rushdie was actually
unjustly condemned.
369
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,080
He's not the enemy
that the Muslims thought he was.
370
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,240
Another Muslim writer, Yasmin
Alibhai-Brown, who was working
371
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,200
for the New Statesman at the time,
wrestled with the complex questions
372
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,240
of free speech
and her own religious beliefs.
373
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,880
I adored Salman Rushdie.
374
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,880
You know, the first books, he spoke
to us and in a sense spoke for us
375
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,520
about the kind of continually...
376
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,360
..vexatious migrant condition.
377
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,960
Who you are, who you belong to,
378
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,080
all of this,
and in the most glorious way.
379
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,040
So he was my hero, and I had never
described myself as a Muslim,
380
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,120
because I thought it was
my private business.
381
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:34,120
But then this happened, and I felt
I had a kind of duty to come out.
382
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,440
Come out, you used that phrase,
yeah? I came out, because everybody
383
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,880
was discussing Muslims in such...
including my friends,
384
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,680
and my writers I admired,
as if they were barbarians,
385
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,400
as if they were
the most uncivilised people,
386
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,760
in language that I had never heard
from left-wing liberals.
387
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,760
So I thought, "Right, you have
a duty now to say,
388
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,400
"'Stop it. I'm a Muslim.
Now say it to me.'"
389
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,080
Tell me about the first time you
ever hear about the Satanic Verses.
390
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,360
I knew things were happening
over this book.
391
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,960
I'd read it, and
I was uncomfortable with it.
392
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,600
Something inside my head
said, you know,
393
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,520
all of us have to be really careful
not to try and win
394
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,720
position and praise...
395
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,400
..by becoming what we think
the white world wants us to be.
396
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,480
He was becoming what the white world
wanted him to be?
397
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,720
I don't know if he was,
but that's what I told myself.
398
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,680
"Oh, my God. This heroic writer.
399
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,800
"Something's happening here
that I'm uncomfortable with."
400
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,680
In these early days I did feel
very torn between the writer,
401
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,480
the writer whom I loved,
402
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,760
and the rights of the people
from whom I come.
403
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,400
The Satanic Verses made me
understand the relationship
404
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,240
between freedom of speech and power.
405
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,080
I've always thought more freedom
is better than less freedom,
406
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,840
and censorship by a state is wrong.
407
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,600
So when the fatwa happened,
lots of us got together
408
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,000
and issued a statement saying,
you know, we defend the right
409
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,160
of the writer in this case,
because it struck me as wrong.
410
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,240
Absolutely nobody should be killed
for words, for nothing.
411
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,520
At the time Yasmin learned of two
British scholars who'd just returned
412
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,480
from Iran and whose actions there
413
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,560
may have altered
the course of history.
414
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,600
Having called for the execution
of Mr Rushdie...
415
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,040
Kalim Siddiqui was director
of the Muslim Institute
416
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,040
here in the UK, and he argued
for the death sentence
417
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,520
for Salman Rushdie.
418
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:50,040
Kalim Siddiqui and Ghayasuddin
Siddiqui went to Iran,
419
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,360
and asked the Ayatollah
to pass the fatwa.
420
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,320
I knew because I interviewed
both of them.
421
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,920
Kalim was adamant until he died
that he did go,
422
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,400
and he did what he did,
and was the right thing to do.
423
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,440
And yet Kalim Siddiqui's son today
completely denies that his father
424
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,360
went and asked for a fatwa.
425
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,520
I interviewed his father,
so he can't deny that.
426
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,240
The fatwa was and remains
an order that must be carried out
427
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,680
as and when it becomes possible
to do so.
428
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,880
Do you think the fatwa
would have been issued
429
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,640
if they hadn't made that trip? No.
430
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,400
So the origins of the fatwa
are in this country? Here, yeah.
431
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,800
Yes.
432
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,160
Today's violence means that
16 people have now died
433
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,760
in protest at Salman Rushdie's
novel.
434
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,040
In the Iranian holy city of Homs
today, demonstrators made clear
435
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,480
their support for the Ayatollah
by declaring their readiness
436
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,120
to carry out the death sentence
on Mr Rushdie.
437
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:51,160
The call to kill Rushdie, led by
Iran, soon turned
438
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,400
an argument about a book
into a global diplomatic crisis.
439
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,280
It is a fundamental matter
of freedom of speech,
440
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,920
and we cannot have our people
inciting their citizens
441
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,280
to murder one of our citizens.
442
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,280
Then, in an act of terror on
UK soil,
443
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,000
a London bookshop
was targeted by Muslim militants.
444
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,600
The bomb went off
at three o'clock this morning.
445
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,240
Anti-terrorist squad officers
were called to the scene
446
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,280
and they're investigating a possible
link with three other attacks
447
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,760
on bookshops in London
in recent months.
448
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Despite the violence,
here in the UK,
449
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,760
the book was not withdrawn
from publication.
450
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,040
If nothing else, the controversy
over Satanic Verses
451
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,280
has helped sales.
452
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,760
It's currently the bestselling
novel in Britain, and now looks like
453
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,520
being a runaway success
in the United States as well.
454
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,800
And in response to the fatwa,
the author was unrepentant.
455
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,480
I wish I'd written
a more critical book.
456
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,360
I mean, a religion, a religion
that is able to behave like this...
457
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,280
Religious leaders, let's say,
who are able to behave like this,
458
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,000
and then say that this is a religion
459
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,280
which must be above any kind
of whisper of criticism,
460
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,840
that doesn't add up.
461
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,360
It seems to me that that
Islamic fundamentalists
462
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,640
could do with a little criticism
right now.
463
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,360
The Satanic Verses controversy
claimed the lives of 59 people
464
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:13,000
across the world.
465
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,720
And the author himself went
into hiding for the next nine years.
466
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,680
At school in Huddersfield, I was too
young to understand the magnitude
467
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,080
of what was going on,
but we all knew about Rushdie.
468
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,600
This is my old school.
469
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,360
I swear it looks so much smaller.
470
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:48,280
This is the yard where
I became aware of Salman Rushdie,
471
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,680
and The Satanic Verses.
472
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,520
And that's because there...
473
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,400
HE LAUGHS
474
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,720
There used to be a game.
475
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,880
I'm laughing because I feel
really odd saying this.
476
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,560
The game was called
How Would You Kill Salman Rushdie?
477
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,960
He was like a bogeyman.
478
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,680
So it's not as if as eight-year-old
kids we were aware of the politics.
479
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,320
But he was the bad guy.
480
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,800
As I was growing up,
a more conservative form of Islam
481
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,240
was being ushered in.
482
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960
It caused an awakening
for many Muslims in the UK,
483
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,640
driving some to
the political extremes.
484
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,600
Assalaamu Alaikum. How are you
doing? I'm OK, how are you?
485
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,880
You all right?
I'm really good, thank you.
486
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,920
Like many young Muslims at the time
who went on to become extremists,
487
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Shahid Butt points to the
Satanic Verses as the key reason
488
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,480
for becoming politically active.
489
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,960
The Salman Rushdie affair was a kind
of a turning point in my life.
490
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,760
There was a call out for
a big demonstration in London.
491
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,080
The protests in the UK
culminated in a march
492
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,080
on the Houses of Parliament
attended by an estimated
493
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,920
70,000 Muslim protesters.
494
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:07,640
24-year-old Shahid was one of them.
495
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,680
So what happened was
that coaches up and down the country
496
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,960
were gathering outside
all the local mosques.
497
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,600
Local businessmen had paid
for the coaches and the people
498
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,320
could literally jump on the coach,
and that's how I got there.
499
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,000
I wasn't a practising Muslim.
I didn't pray five times a day.
500
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,080
I didn't know anything
about my religion at the time.
501
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,680
I just knew that this guy
had written a book where
502
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,160
he had insulted the Prophet,
our prophet, he insulted his wife,
503
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,440
said a lot of bad things
about Islam.
504
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,400
Initially, I kind of thought, yeah,
OK. You know, it's a free holiday.
505
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,080
"Free trip to London. Yeah, they're
paying for it, so why not?
506
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,120
"Let's go down and, you know..." The
impression I get is you weren't...
507
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,800
It wasn't really about blasphemy.
508
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,400
I wasn't 100% sort of, you know,
ideologically driven that, you know,
509
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440
I was a seasoned veteran
demonstrating, or whatever.
510
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,000
It was an experience for me.
511
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,120
The demonstration began peacefully.
512
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Everybody wanted to sit down,
and do a sit-down protest.
513
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,520
And we kind of did it for about
ten seconds, I mean, we're like,
514
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,120
"We're not a bunch of pussies,"
so we kind of got up.
515
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,360
And then one thing led to another.
516
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,400
101 demonstrators were arrested.
517
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,760
Police later blamed the trouble
on young militants.
518
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,760
It was mostly done
by guys like myself.
519
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,040
We weren't the religious type.
520
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Police confronted us.
So I got grabbed.
521
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,120
They pulled me out, gave me some
digs, and they got some more guys.
522
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,160
And then they took us back
to the police station.
523
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000
The two cops that were holding me,
they were talking to each other,
524
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,960
one of them turned around
and said, you know,
525
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,480
"This effing part-time Muslim.
Let's get a pork sandwich,
526
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,000
"and shove it down his throat.
That'll teach him a lesson."
527
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,120
What effect did that have on you?
It got things going in my head.
528
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,920
What does he mean by
a part-time Muslim?
529
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,560
The bit that sticks in your throat,
530
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,720
is it about you being
a part-time Muslim? Why was that?
531
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,240
I felt insulted. Even though
I wasn't a practising Muslim
532
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,000
at the time, you know,
533
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,200
even for those of us who were not
practising, we still hold Islam
534
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,280
in a very high regard because that's
just the way we are as people.
535
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,360
As kids that's how
we've always been brought up.
536
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,360
You don't disrespect your religion.
537
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,960
From that moment onwards, I did
start to become more practising.
538
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,960
I started to learn more about Islam.
539
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,240
There was a period in my life
when I did start to take on
540
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,360
some of these kind of
more extreme ideas,
541
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,520
and have this kind of mentality
where...
542
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,800
The "us and them" mentality, and
that is a clash of civilisations.
543
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,400
I joined the Bosnian army,
the Mujahideen division,
544
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,080
and I became a foreign fighter.
545
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,040
And then I went on the front line
and I fought against the Serbs.
546
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,160
So now you're talking about jihad,
basically? Yeah.
547
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,960
So you're fighting jihad,
did you feel, OK,
548
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,600
this is the right thing to do now?
549
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,480
Well, it's a war zone, you know,
and jihad is part of our religion.
550
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,720
Jihad means to strive
and to struggle. Yeah?
551
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,520
So I was striving and struggling
to help my brothers and sisters.
552
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,040
Shahid has since turned his life
around, and has been helping
553
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,080
de-radicalise Muslim extremists
for the UK government, and others,
554
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,520
for 15 years.
555
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,120
However, during the '90s
he fought armed jihad in Bosnia,
556
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,080
Afghanistan and Kashmir,
to help defend, as he saw it,
557
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,280
fellow Muslims around the world
who were under attack.
558
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,760
He then returned to Britain
559
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,120
to join Islamic fundamentalist
hate preacher Abu Hamza,
560
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:30,040
and campaigned for the introduction
of an Islamic state here in the UK.
561
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,360
I was involved in a lot of
different groups like, you know,
562
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,920
with Abu Hamza al-Masri
from Finsbury Park Mosque.
563
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,720
Do you regret it?
564
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,200
I don't regret
fighting for the sake of Allah,
565
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,280
to defend my Muslim brothers
or sisters
566
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,360
who were being oppressed and killed.
567
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,800
Yes, if we're talking about some
of the more extreme views
568
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,000
I had while I was with
some of these groups,
569
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,000
then, yeah, I mean,
now I know better that, you know,
570
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,680
that wasn't the right thing to do
571
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,600
and that wasn't the right kind
of views to have, and it was wrong.
572
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,520
I shouldn't have done that, and
I shouldn't have had those feelings
573
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,160
towards other people, or whatever.
574
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,960
But a lot of it I would put down
to anger and frustration.
575
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,280
30 years later, don't you look
back on that, and think,
576
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,560
"Shit, I should not have been
backing those people"?
577
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,160
I didn't know any better.
I just got caught up in the crowd.
578
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,000
You know, I believed
what I was being told
579
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,840
because I thought that these guys
were more intelligent,
580
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,280
they were more knowledgeable
about Islam than I was.
581
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,520
And I fell into that into that trap,
like a lot of other people did.
582
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,760
Shit happens in life.
You know, I did it. We move on.
583
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,000
We grow up, you know. We move on,
and we get wiser,
584
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,200
we get better, we get mature and we
move on. We learn from our mistakes,
585
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,080
and we learn from our experiences.
586
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,960
If you were going to chat
to Salman Rushdie today,
587
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,920
what would you say to him?
588
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,200
You... You're just you just trying
to get a response
589
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,840
out of me, aren't you?
Of course I am!
590
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,680
Don't hit me, right, but if the face
of Salman Rushdie was here,
591
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,320
then what would you say?
592
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,280
Put your hand up again. No, no...
Go on, what would you say?
593
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Today my response would be different
than if you'd asked me 30 years ago.
594
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,280
If you'd asked me 30 years ago,
595
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,120
I probably would have punched
his nose and punched his lights out.
596
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,000
I'll tell you straight,
that's what I would have done.
597
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,840
Today, with all what's going on,
and the way things are,
598
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,560
I think my response would be
a lot more measured.
599
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,400
I don't think I'd get physical
with him.
600
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640
I'd tell him
he's a fucking dickhead, you know.
601
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,160
I mean, what kind of a literary
writer, academic are you,
602
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,240
that the only way that you can get
any kind of fame
603
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,880
is by insulting people,
and by being derogatory,
604
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,120
and by, you know,
insulting billions of people?
605
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Is that the best that you can do?
606
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,800
I am astounded at the effect
The Satanic Verses
607
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,000
had on Shahid's life.
608
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000
He has been in some
pretty dark places.
609
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,040
When he talks about fighting
jihad around the world
610
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,520
then I get a distinct sense
that he regrets it.
611
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:45,960
But there's a question there -
612
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,000
can being offended about a book
613
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,680
actually make you do
any of those things?
614
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,760
And I think it can't,
but that's almost irrelevant,
615
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,160
because for him, and a generation
of people, the book was a catalyst.
616
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,200
So it brought to the surface
all the stuff, like racism,
617
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,720
like feeling like the underdog,
not feeling at home here.
618
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,760
It brought all that to the surface
and it became a symbol
619
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,960
of everything that was wrong.
620
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,920
The hardening of the Muslim protests
against The Satanic Verses
621
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,960
inevitably had
a disturbing counter-effect.
622
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,480
Come down here, give me a try.
623
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,680
In 1989, Matthew Collins
was the 16-year-old chairman
624
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,520
of the National Front's
London branch.
625
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,240
He helped lead a counter-protest
in Parliament Square
626
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:52,440
against the Muslim protesters.
627
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,320
It was a very, very hot day in 1989.
628
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,480
There was a massive demonstration
called for London
629
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,520
against The Satanic Verses.
630
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,200
And about 20 of us came here
631
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,640
to demonstrate against
that demonstration.
632
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,040
So is this is where you kind of
gathered? This was it.
633
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,600
Yes. We were standing here with
these banners saying,
634
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,120
"No Muslim wars on British shores."
635
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,200
And there were thousands of Muslims
running onto Parliament Square,
636
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,440
in front of Big Ben
and the Houses of Parliament.
637
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,880
We were, like,
"Shit, war's really, really here."
638
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,560
We ran, we scattered, and they
sort of took over Parliament Square,
639
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,440
doing, like, a bit of a rally.
640
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,320
I think at the time we thought...
Can I use some crude language?
641
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,560
Of course you can.
We just thought they were Pakis,
642
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,240
and didn't like Pakis. We had
no idea what fundamentalism was,
643
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:48,040
we had no idea about anything.
Did you know about the book?
644
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,680
No. Had you read the book? No.
645
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,480
Had anyone in your group
read the book?
646
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,960
I was in the National Front.
We didn't read books.
647
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,280
Matthew Collins
left the National Front in 1994,
648
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,240
and is now
an anti-racism campaigner.
649
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,320
When he joined back in the mid '80s
the NF had abandoned
650
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,280
any electoral interest, and focused
instead on swelling its ranks
651
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,320
with skinhead activists
in their East London
652
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,160
and northern strongholds.
653
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,400
I joined the National Front in 1986
654
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,160
because of my concerns
about immigration.
655
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,200
The National Front, of course,
was always an anti-immigration,
656
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,000
anti-immigrant party who wanted
all these people deported,
657
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,480
whether they were born in Bradford,
Burnley or London.
658
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,280
They had to go back to wherever
they, or their parents,
659
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480
or their grandparents came from.
660
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,960
We'd never heard of Muslims.
We didn't know what Islam was,
661
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,120
we didn't. Then suddenly this whole
row erupted about this book,
662
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,520
and suddenly people are talking
about Muslims and Islam.
663
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,920
Then we sort of came to the
conclusion that Muslims
664
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,960
are a bit precious
about their religion.
665
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,600
These people seemed to be quite
intolerant of a silly book.
666
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,840
And so we did pick up
quite a few members.
667
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,800
People watching these anti-Rushdie
protests thinking,
668
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,440
"Oh, well, this is very, very,
very, very intolerant.
669
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,760
"We don't want them here."
670
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,600
We weren't there
to defend Salman Rushdie,
671
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,680
because he wasn't white anyway,
we didn't like him.
672
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,720
We didn't want to defend his freedom
of speech, or his rights to write
673
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,480
a book that offended people.
674
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,360
We wanted him, and them, all gone.
675
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,360
And then we'd have this peaceful
society without them all,
676
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,760
a peaceful society run by
the National Front.
677
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,320
Can you imagine it?
678
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,320
Salman Rushdie opened up the eyes
for, potentially,
679
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,120
hundreds of thousands of
Islamophobes in this country.
680
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,280
It riled people, it worried them
when they saw riots,
681
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,440
and they saw people
burning effigies.
682
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,440
Then we had the dreaded Ayatollah
Khomeini issuing a fatwa
683
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,360
against a British writer.
684
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,960
Matthew claims The Satanic Verses
served as a very effective
685
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,400
recruiting sergeant
for the National Front.
686
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,320
Satanic Verses wasn't going to
put us into Parliament,
687
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,960
but we could feel that
it was going to swell our numbers.
688
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,320
Probably about 40% increase.
689
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,080
We knew, once this went around, that
more people would join up with us.
690
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,400
More and more people would say, yes,
we need to fight these Muslims.
691
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,800
And that's what it's been about
ever since.
692
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,080
The idea is to dehumanise Muslims,
and all other people,
693
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,480
you know, that the National Front
doesn't like.
694
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,440
So when the time comes, and you're
dragging them out of their house
695
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,200
to chuck them on the back
of a lorry,
696
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,280
people are so dehumanised towards
them they don't stand up to protest.
697
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,400
It's a process. It's a process.
698
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,320
Dehumanising people is a process,
I think.
699
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,240
And I think Salman Rushdie
probably started it with his book.
700
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,920
It was the best gift ever
for the National Front.
701
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,280
The best gift ever.
702
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,720
As the National Front
fell into decline in the 1990s,
703
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,760
other hard-right groups emerged
in their wake.
704
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,240
They used the War on Terror and
its effect on worsening relations
705
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:38,720
with British Muslims
to reinvigorate their attack.
706
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:41,720
Later acts of terror
allowed hard-right activists
707
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:43,120
like Tommy Robinson,
708
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,640
formerly of the English
Defence League, to thrive.
709
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,880
Shortly after
the Manchester Arena bombing,
710
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,240
he used a right-wing digital channel
to bypass the mainstream media
711
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:58,440
and broadcast this Islamophobic
attack - his version of free speech.
712
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,400
When you see these communities,
and you see these houses, you think
713
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,000
this is a British community,
or you might have British Muslims.
714
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,360
They are... They are enemy
combatants in these houses.
715
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,360
In these houses
are enemy combatants
716
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,440
who want to kill you, maim you,
and destroy you.
717
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,480
NEWSREADER: Stephen Yaxley-Lennon -
that's his real name -
718
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,360
appeared at the Old Bailey
at the end of September.
719
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,440
The full weight of the establishment
is coming down on my shoulders
720
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,200
because I speak openly and honestly
and tell the facts about Islam.
721
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,200
Freedom of speech!
722
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,360
They're calling Tommy Robinson
a Nazi,
723
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,400
because he's putting the light on
a load of Muslim fucking nonces.
724
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,680
What Tommy Robinson has tried to do
is intellectualise racism.
725
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,240
He presents an argument
that this is not about skin colour.
726
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:43,680
It's not about race.
727
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,960
It's about what people believe.
728
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,160
And as a result of that,
we see that this discourse
729
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,000
has become mainstream.
730
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,000
Tommy Robinson's ideas are shared
online, and they're discussed
731
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,080
in our papers, on a weekly basis.
732
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,960
And the idea that Muslim values and
British values are not compatible
733
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,840
was not even on our radar
pre-Satanic Verses.
734
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,680
That stuff is scary
and it needs to be challenged.
735
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,960
I don't buy Tommy Robinson's
argument.
736
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,800
I think it is racist,
so it needs to be called out.
737
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,760
But what we can't allow it to do
738
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,360
is stop us from asking difficult
questions and having those debates.
739
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,760
Mobeen Azhar...
on BBC Asian Network.
740
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,240
Yes, it is.
741
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,080
This is Mobeen Azhar, I'm going
to be with you all the way
742
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,920
till midnight and we are going
to be talking about blasphemy.
743
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,560
Yes, we are.
744
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,160
30 years on from the release
of The Satanic Verses.
745
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,000
Now, the Salman Rushdie book
ended in him getting a fatwa,
746
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,160
lots of people
saying it was blasphemous...
747
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,680
To get to the very core
of the issue,
748
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,400
I decided to use my radio show
to find out what people think today
749
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,120
about the issue of blasphemy
in a free society.
750
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,760
Where in a progressive,
liberal society
751
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,120
should you be able to pass comment
on other people's religion?
752
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,640
Should there be a law
against blasphemy?
753
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,760
What does this geezer think?
754
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,000
Please. Whatever you do,
755
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,040
please don't defame our religion.
756
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,320
Blasphemy law in England and Wales,
which protected Christianity only,
757
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,760
was abolished in 2008.
758
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,880
Now racist and religious hate crime
laws are in place to protect
759
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:27,160
everyone from hostility or prejudice
based on their race or religion.
760
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,520
But that doesn't stop some
from wanting their religion
761
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,760
to have further protection.
762
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,640
Welcome to the Asian Network.
763
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,880
Me, my faith is far more important
to me than my race.
764
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,520
So if there are laws to protect
my race, it's only common sense
765
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,360
that there should be laws
to protect my faith, especially
766
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,160
with the rise of the far right.
767
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,800
I've got with me Sadia Hameed -
768
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,840
she's an activist, I can describe
you as an activist?
769
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,840
Yeah, you can describe me
however you want.
770
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,120
And you're an ex-Muslim. Yes.
771
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,120
In our society,
should we be able to diss God?
772
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,000
Yeah!
773
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,160
That's really pithy.
That's it.
774
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,000
Yes. OK.
775
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,280
But why?
776
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,480
Islam really needs to be dragged
into 2018.
777
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:08,920
So, I don't understand...
778
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,760
..what you actually want.
779
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,240
What kind of blasphemy law
do you want, then?
780
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,960
Because what you're asking for
781
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,960
is a protection of Islam,
or your faith,
782
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,560
rather than protecting you
as an individual.
783
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,400
There is already a law in place,
784
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,440
the Racial And Religious Hatred Act
2006 is already in place.
785
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,080
That's for individuals
and not for ideas.
786
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,720
You're asking for a law
to protect your ideas.
787
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,000
I don't think he's saying there
should be punishment, are you?
788
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,680
Or are you?
I just want to clarify.
789
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,160
Punishment?
790
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,680
Look, I'll tell you what
the Koran says - "Revile not you
791
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,520
"those whom they call upon
besides Allah
792
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,000
"lest they out of spite
revile Allah in their ignorance."
793
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,840
The discussion around blasphemy
is still raging.
794
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,280
Most of the people I was speaking
to weren't even born
795
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,080
when The Satanic Verses
was published.
796
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,160
But it hangs as this shadow...
797
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,280
..over all of us.
798
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,720
It's become part of our DNA in terms
of how we view an entire community.
799
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,160
It's very difficult, and I don't
think we have fully exorcised
800
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,960
the spectre of The Satanic Verses
affair.
801
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,760
I was intrigued by what former
Muslim Sadia Hameed had to say
802
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,400
on the radio show.
803
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,240
So I went to find out more
about her at her campaign office.
804
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,240
Sadia's organisation, the Council
of Ex-Muslims of Britain,
805
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:47,840
uses the idea of blasphemy as a tool
to challenge aspects of Islam
806
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,640
that she finds conservative
and archaic.
807
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,360
But as a pretty
liberal-minded Muslim,
808
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,680
even I was shocked when I saw
some of her banners.
809
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,080
This is our most popular banner.
810
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,680
And weirdly, we didn't get
killed for it.
811
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,360
I don't like it, Sadia, I don't
like it. Why don't you like it?
812
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,960
Tell me.
813
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,240
This has the name of the Prophet
on it.
814
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:16,400
So my default is to pick it up.
But it's a play on what actually,
815
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,240
what Muslims consider to
have happened, right? Completely.
816
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:21,880
So, yes.
817
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,440
So, you know, like, we learned
from, like, kids,
818
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,320
that Muhammad split the moon...
Yeah.
819
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,440
So this, it just feels...
820
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,200
..kind of exploitative.
821
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,400
And it feels exploitative
in terms of...
822
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,040
This isn't about taking people
to an argument
823
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,880
or talking about criminalising
homosexuality. This is a comedy.
824
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,640
This is about, this is about...
825
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,520
..I guess it is, it's comedy.
It's comedy.
826
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,560
Sure. And I can see
the funny side of it.
827
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,000
The bit that I'm not
with you is when I see this,
828
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,880
I just see it as divisive
and, like, a bit of a piss-take.
829
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,320
I've just been reading The Satanic
Verses for the first time.
830
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,560
My issue with it is
when he is taking the piss,
831
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,040
and it's kind of similar to this.
832
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,560
Now, there's a point -
it's that, you know,
833
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,080
you can go up to this line here
834
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,120
and if you just put a finger
over that line,
835
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,720
you know you're going to get
a response.
836
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,160
And when he's writing that
and when you are writing this,
837
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,040
it's like, "I'm going to get that
response."
838
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,240
But then, what is the alternative?
How do we raise these issues
839
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,680
without, without some provocation?
840
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,320
Sadia used to be a practising
Muslim, but as a teenager
841
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,400
she began to question her faith.
842
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,640
Then at 19, she formally
told her family she had left Islam.
843
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,320
When I first left,
my hatred and my feelings
844
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,240
were really, like, corrosive.
845
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:44,680
I felt really angry -
"I have no place here.
846
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,480
"They don't care for me.
I'm not... I don't belong here."
847
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,720
And actually,
people need that reaction.
848
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:52,400
You know, they have to be able,
have to be able to express that.
849
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,960
We're not even allowed to say that.
850
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,080
When Sadia took to the streets
with her placards
851
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,920
at London's biggest gay march,
852
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,800
they provoked an outcry from
some Muslim leaders,
853
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,080
who claimed they were Islamophobic.
854
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,920
Every time we do something
like this and everybody kicks off,
855
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,800
it's keeping us in the Dark Ages.
856
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,640
It means that we can never,
ever laugh at Islam.
857
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,320
That's not a mature sort of
way of behaving. I get that.
858
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,480
We need to be able to talk
about things,
859
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,360
we need to be able to take the piss
out of things.
860
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,920
There's this kind of sentiment now -
861
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,640
I think it's been around for a few
years, but people are going a little
862
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,680
bit crazy, where if they're
offended, it has to stop.
863
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,960
That can't keep happening.
864
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,520
You can't blindly follow something
and not question it.
865
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,600
I believe in free speech
and I would defend Sadia's right
866
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,080
to say what she wants to say,
but as a believer, when I see
867
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,520
those placards and I see the word
Allah, and the name Muhammad
868
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,200
on the floor,
there's a visceral response.
869
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,640
You know, I still have a Koran
high up on a shelf in my flat.
870
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,520
There is a respect
and a reverence there.
871
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,560
So when Sadia argues that
she has to have insult,
872
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,520
you have to have comedy,
in order to engage people...
873
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,520
I don't think that's right.
874
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,760
If you want to take people with you,
875
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,920
insulting them
isn't the way to do that.
876
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,640
Once again, I'm heading back
to Bradford,
877
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,240
where the notorious book burning
took place.
878
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,600
Something we're still feeling
the impact of today.
879
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,400
Of course I would have written the
book. If I want to write a book
880
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,440
in a certain way, that's my right.
881
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,240
I mean, I walk into a bookshop.
882
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:43,680
There are some books
that I don't like.
883
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,560
There's lots of books in it
that you could say offended me.
884
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,640
I don't burn the book shop down.
885
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,400
You know, I just go and choose
a book I like.
886
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,240
There we are.
That's the whole story.
887
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,680
I'm just really tired of
religious people saying
888
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,520
they need special treatment.
Nobody deserves special treatment.
889
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:00,840
Deal with it.
890
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,080
The mistake of our time,
to have allowed religious extremism
891
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200
to try and set the terms,
and say you can't do anything
892
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,640
that we don't like, because
otherwise we'll come and kill you.
893
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,360
Well, that's the crime.
894
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,440
Books are not crimes.
Books are books.
895
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,840
I want to find out
how much the world has moved on
896
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,320
and assess the strength of feeling
30 years on.
897
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,400
I just want your opinion
on something.
898
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,680
No, no, it's rubbish, that.
Why is it rubbish?
899
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,080
Would people be willing today
to have a discussion with me
900
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:37,920
about the content of the book?
901
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,560
This book?
No, I have never read it.
902
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,200
Tell me what you think about
this sentence. I don't want to.
903
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:44,440
No problem. Don't worry.
904
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,800
This is a book by Salman Rushdie,
published 30 years ago,
905
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,520
and it's a novel, so it's meant
to be a work of fiction.
906
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,080
Yeah. Yeah.
907
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,360
"The 15-year-old whore, Ayesha,
908
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,320
"was the most popular with
the paying public,
909
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,240
"just as her namesake was with..."
910
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,280
So the prostitutes are named
after...
911
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,520
..the wives of the Prophet.
Basically.
912
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,960
Trying to say it, but at the same
time just trying to not say it.
913
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,040
He's saying... Fictional...
914
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,280
You don't seem that offended.
Do you think it's up for grabs?
915
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,120
It's all right for people
to write stuff?
916
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,560
ALL: No, it's not all right.
You don't, why not?
917
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,200
I feel like there should be limits
upon what you write and boundaries,
918
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,280
in order to keep respect.
919
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,480
And if that's not met, then
I don't really agree with it.
920
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,600
I do find it offensive.
Cos at the end of the day,
921
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,960
if it is about Islam,
then that's about my religion,
922
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,880
and about so many
other people's religion,
923
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,040
that it's normal for people
to find it offensive.
924
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,160
Boundaries? Boundaries
should be respected.
925
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,720
Everything in between, everything
that's said and put out there.
926
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,960
Is that Salman Rushdie? It is.
Is that The Satanic Verses? It is.
927
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,680
Do you know it? Yeah,
I've got a long history with that.
928
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,240
I got arrested on them riots.
929
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:52,080
No way! So were you at the demo
here? Yeah. Yeah.
930
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,960
What about the book burning?
Did you see that?
931
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,840
I was here. Who are you?
Have you read it?
932
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,960
I've read it.
Where are you from?
933
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,520
Where am I from?
So, I'm from Huddersfield.
934
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,040
Right. I live in London.
935
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,480
How come you're holding
The Satanic Verses?
936
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,840
You think I shouldn't be holding it?
No comment.
937
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,280
So, what you meant when you said
where are you from, you meant,
938
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,920
"Are you Muslim?" Didn't you?
That's what you meant. Yeah.
939
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,760
So would it make a difference
if I was Muslim?
940
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:16,320
I mean, I am Muslim.
941
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,040
But you think as a Muslim
I shouldn't be holding the book?
942
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,520
No, no, no. Let me see...
943
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,960
Will you read this? Will you tell me
what you think? Yeah.
944
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,520
You're not going to get angry? No.
Are you sure? Yeah.
945
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,200
"How many wives? 12. And one old
lady, long dead... How many...
946
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,280
"How many whores behind the curtain?
12, again."
947
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,000
Does that mean anything to you?
948
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,080
Yeah, he's a devil worshipper.
The curtain...
949
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,000
..is the curtain on
the Day of Judgment,
950
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:51,000
that is lifted when you go to...
And the whores at, at the...
951
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,720
The wives, the Muslim...
Up in heaven.
952
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,680
Is that what he's talking about?
Yeah.
953
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,520
Come and talk to me,
why are you running off?
954
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,560
You need educating, brother.
I need educating?
955
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,040
Come and talk,
to educate me, then.
956
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,720
I encountered a wide range of
reactions in the square that day.
957
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,920
But what about the man who brought
the book soaked in petrol
958
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,480
to the square 30 years ago?
959
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,120
How does he feel, looking back?
960
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,000
What do you think that
the legacy is
961
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,080
of what you did here with the book?
962
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,040
The government didn't listen.
963
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,560
The book is still there.
964
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,840
What it did do is to raise
awareness about the feelings
965
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,680
of the Muslims in the community, so
that the community of other authors
966
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,920
don't write a similar book
about Muslims.
967
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,280
We end up in a similar
situation again.
968
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:47,560
So by burning one book,
what we did was to promote peace,
969
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:52,000
at that time. Do you see
the kind of contradiction there?
970
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,600
Saying, "We were promoting peace
by burning a book."? Yeah.
971
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,720
It doesn't trip off the tongue
nicely.
972
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:01,000
Do you see that?
973
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:06,080
No, I disagree because our aim
was not creating a problem
974
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,000
but to bring peace in the city.
975
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,040
And yes, we burned the book.
The feelings of the people
976
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,120
were inflamed, non-Muslim,
Muslim as well,
977
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,880
you can say, but then
we set the agenda.
978
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,160
We said, "Look, this is our issue."
979
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,800
It is sad, unfortunately,
because I feel that the media
980
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,760
could have played a better role
in handling the situation.
981
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,480
I know. But what I'm really asking
is... Like, using a word
982
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,160
like "unfortunately"
suggests it just happened.
983
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,360
It didn't just happen.
You soaked a book in paraffin
984
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,040
and set fire to it.
985
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,040
So what I'm saying... Is there
a bit of you that thinks,
986
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,360
"We went too far"?
987
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,760
Perhaps it inflamed the feeling
of people in the community,
988
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,800
and if it did do that,
we feel sorry for that.
989
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,520
We didn't intend to... I understand.
990
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,400
..cause that feeling, that hurt.
Perhaps we have...
991
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,120
..we did go a bit far.
992
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:01,480
Perhaps not.
993
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,440
I don't know.
994
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,840
There's a sense of
reluctant regret here.
995
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,880
But for some, there's also
a simmering anger
996
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,840
that's as strong now
as it was 30 years ago.
997
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,360
Excuse me... Have you got a second?
Sorry.
998
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,160
The author said it's a critique
of religion... Is that useful?
999
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,000
Come on, then! Come on, then!
1000
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,000
You fucking bastard! Come on, then.
1001
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,000
Here's the book. Can I have my book
back? Fuck you! The book...
1002
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:35,680
Want to see the book, no?
1003
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:36,680
Come on, then.
1004
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,600
Fuck you!
1005
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,160
I'm going to burn this book!
Film it! Go on, film it!
1006
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,840
Fuck off! It's about our Prophet.
1007
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,600
Go fuck yourself! Fuck you!
1008
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,720
Walk on! Salman Rushdie!
1009
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:50,920
Shut your mouth right now.
Shut your mouth.
1010
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:52,360
I knew what the book was about.
1011
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,440
That's why I didn't want to
do bullshit with you.
1012
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,120
If you're recording for the BBC,
I don't give a shit.
1013
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,280
You know you're coming to Bradford,
a Muslim ghetto,
1014
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,480
trying to say that shit.
1015
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,360
How is it a Muslim ghetto? I'm from
down the road, from Huddersfield.
1016
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,160
Is that not a Muslim ghetto?
I'm a Muslim.
1017
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,960
You're going to a Muslim-populated
area, trying to say shit...
1018
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,680
I'm a Muslim. Well, you are
going to get a response like that -
1019
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:12,560
be prepared. That's all I'm saying.
1020
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,120
You think it's reasonable
for someone to grab a book
1021
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,960
and start ripping it up?
Yeah, they can. Freedom of...
1022
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,120
If you feel offended,
you can burn the book.
1023
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,760
The question is, what are you going
to do about it, then?
1024
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,080
Have you heard of The Satanic
Verses? No, I've not.
1025
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,080
OK, so it's by an author called
Salman Rushdie.
1026
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,520
I don't want to read the book.
1027
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,040
I don't want to read the book.
So you don't want to read it
1028
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,240
because of what you heard? Cos of
what I know. I know who that guy is.
1029
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,440
I know what he's talking about.
It's all bullshit.
1030
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,440
Put that on BBC media.
My name as well. There you go.
1031
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,720
There you go. Get out my face.
1032
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:44,720
Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
1033
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:47,200
Has he burnt it? Where is he?
1034
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,840
He's actually burnt it? Yeah.
1035
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,440
Where has he burnt it? Over there.
1036
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,440
Was he up there?
1037
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,240
Did you actually see him
start a fire?
1038
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:06,120
It's got burn marks on it.
1039
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,520
Actually, he's actually
set fire to it.
1040
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:19,560
I can't see him.
1041
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,600
I felt really a bit odd
walking through the square
1042
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,160
with The Satanic Verses,
but I did not, for a second,
1043
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,840
think someone was going to
get so offended
1044
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,120
that they grabbed it out my hand
and set fire to it.
1045
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,240
We're talking about something
that happened 30 years ago.
1046
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,520
To understand that level,
1047
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,720
that kind of visceral response...
1048
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:42,640
..I don't get it.
1049
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:43,880
I do not get it.
1050
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:46,720
I keep looking over my back,
1051
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,360
cos I think he's going to
come back in a second.
1052
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,200
I felt offended by parts
of this book. That does not mean
1053
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,920
I want to shut down discussion,
that does not mean I want to argue
1054
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,360
and fight with people.
1055
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,400
It does not mean...
1056
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,400
..that I want to curb
someone else's rights...
1057
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,320
..to discuss things or write things.
1058
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,720
People chipping in and saying,
"Oh, yeah, you come to Bradford,
1059
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:12,880
"there's Muslims here, you should
expect this kind of trouble" -
1060
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,760
are you mad? Do you know what?
1061
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,280
As a community,
we do not have the maturity
1062
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,360
to even have these discussions.
1063
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,160
We are so ready to react.
1064
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,000
That's all that was about.
1065
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,160
That was a reaction,
an unthinking reaction.
1066
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,960
An unthinking "shut down
the discussion,
1067
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,440
"can't have a conversation..."
1068
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,440
..reaction. That's all it was.
1069
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,560
I'm just properly pissed off.
1070
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,400
I'm really pissed off that...
1071
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,000
..I can't have a discussion here.
1072
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:17,520
As a child, when I heard
about The Satanic Verses,
1073
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,920
I thought all the fuss
was about a book.
1074
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,840
But it was so much more than that.
1075
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,320
It became a symbol of
everything we'd been through.
1076
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,120
It was about racism,
it was about ridicule,
1077
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,760
it was about the immigrant
experience.
1078
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,000
So religion became
this rallying point,
1079
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,640
something we could cling to
and fight for.
1080
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,320
And sure, you could say we found
our voice through those protests,
1081
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:47,360
but so much of that reaction, it
was ugly and it was ill-thought-out.
1082
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,240
And we created this caricature
1083
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,880
and the Muslim bogeyman was born.
1084
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,560
It ushered in this age of division,
1085
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,960
with Muslims being seen as
the other.
1086
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,240
But we're not outsiders.
1087
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,480
We're a really important part
of British society.
1088
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,960
But we have to be able to stomach
debates about our culture,
1089
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,200
and, actually, our religion as well.
1090
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,320
Even if we find them offensive,
we have to be able to do that.
1091
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,120
And it's only when we can do that,
that the ghost of
1092
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,360
The Satanic Verses
will truly be put to bed.
1092
00:58:25,305 --> 00:59:25,497
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