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1
00:02:24,853 --> 00:02:28,065
I saw that kid Spinks
bust his ass the last time in Vegas.
2
00:02:28,148 --> 00:02:31,818
Oh, he got way too confident, boy.
3
00:02:33,737 --> 00:02:36,782
You should've seen that face
when he left the ring.
4
00:02:40,619 --> 00:02:44,247
The Norton fight, too.
Ali didn't have a prayer.
5
00:02:44,331 --> 00:02:46,249
- Norton's tough.
- Huh!
6
00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:48,413
Kept getting backed up into the corner.
7
00:02:48,438 --> 00:02:50,861
His gloves up all around his ears.
8
00:02:51,546 --> 00:02:54,174
Norton broke Ali's jaw.
9
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I remember that.
10
00:02:58,261 --> 00:03:01,515
Saw this interview with Ali's trainer.
11
00:03:02,140 --> 00:03:05,519
He said he didn't know what was wrong.
12
00:03:06,103 --> 00:03:09,356
The mouthpiece
just kept coming out bloody.
13
00:03:11,775 --> 00:03:14,277
Oh! Norton got a lot of shots in,
14
00:03:15,404 --> 00:03:18,115
but still, that was something.
15
00:03:20,075 --> 00:03:25,831
It is not an easy thing
to break a human being's jaw.
16
00:03:27,082 --> 00:03:28,542
Let me assure you...
17
00:03:30,127 --> 00:03:33,130
that takes practice.
18
00:03:37,926 --> 00:03:40,846
Hey, welcome to Oregon.
19
00:03:42,347 --> 00:03:43,432
Thanks.
20
00:03:45,517 --> 00:03:47,686
I'm Holden Ford, this is Bill Tench.
21
00:03:47,769 --> 00:03:49,169
We're with the Federal Bureau of...
22
00:03:49,193 --> 00:03:50,653
Can I get something to drink?
23
00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:52,816
Sure. Coffee?
24
00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:55,736
Coffee's okay, I guess.
25
00:03:56,278 --> 00:03:58,572
- Could we get him a coffee, please?
- Actually...
26
00:03:59,406 --> 00:04:04,077
what I'd really love
is some cigarettes and a pizza.
27
00:04:04,661 --> 00:04:07,164
- Afraid we can't help you with that.
- Really?
28
00:04:07,247 --> 00:04:08,707
You're the FBI.
29
00:04:08,790 --> 00:04:10,625
We can get you anything
in the commissary.
30
00:04:10,709 --> 00:04:12,753
Well, fuck you for wasting my time.
31
00:04:14,337 --> 00:04:15,922
What?
32
00:04:16,006 --> 00:04:18,216
Just messing with you guys.
33
00:04:21,845 --> 00:04:23,221
Do you mind if we record?
34
00:04:24,055 --> 00:04:26,475
I don't know. Tony, do we mind?
35
00:04:26,558 --> 00:04:29,144
- You got the paperwork?
- This was pre-approved.
36
00:04:29,227 --> 00:04:33,064
- Hey, I didn't approve anything.
- You don't have to do this, Jerry.
37
00:04:34,775 --> 00:04:36,109
Okay.
38
00:04:36,193 --> 00:04:40,280
I'll do it,
as long as I know I don't have to.
39
00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:45,660
- We'll take it from here.
- Yeah, Tony, I'm good.
40
00:04:56,087 --> 00:04:57,422
Mr. Brudos...
41
00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:00,532
we are conducting
interviews with people
42
00:05:00,557 --> 00:05:02,368
who've been convicted
of violent crimes.
43
00:05:02,427 --> 00:05:04,455
What you discuss with us cannot be used
44
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:05,996
against you in your applications...
45
00:05:06,056 --> 00:05:07,516
That's your recorder?
46
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,519
Electronics these days
keep getting smaller.
47
00:05:10,602 --> 00:05:12,020
Where's the mic?
48
00:05:12,896 --> 00:05:15,106
See that little shiny part on the top?
49
00:05:15,816 --> 00:05:17,275
No shit.
50
00:05:17,359 --> 00:05:20,737
You should see the cameras coming out,
fit in your pocket.
51
00:05:24,282 --> 00:05:25,283
What you discuss with us
52
00:05:25,367 --> 00:05:28,328
cannot be used against you
in your applications for parole.
53
00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:31,206
We will be asking you
about your family history,
54
00:05:31,289 --> 00:05:32,791
antecedent behavior,
55
00:05:32,874 --> 00:05:35,836
and thought patterns surrounding
the crimes you've been convicted of.
56
00:05:35,919 --> 00:05:38,755
Our goal is to eventually publish
a statistical analysis
57
00:05:38,838 --> 00:05:40,757
which will not include your name.
58
00:05:46,221 --> 00:05:48,598
Thought this was gonna break
the monotony.
59
00:05:48,682 --> 00:05:50,850
We can go straight to the questions,
if you prefer.
60
00:05:50,934 --> 00:05:52,102
Please.
61
00:05:52,686 --> 00:05:53,687
Okay.
62
00:05:54,771 --> 00:05:56,690
Let's discuss the pre-crime phase.
63
00:05:56,773 --> 00:05:58,936
Specifically, the day before you killed
64
00:05:58,963 --> 00:06:00,844
your first victim, Laura Sullivan.
65
00:06:01,361 --> 00:06:03,113
I didn't kill Laura Sullivan.
66
00:06:04,155 --> 00:06:05,490
You didn't kill...
67
00:06:05,574 --> 00:06:09,119
They never found her body.
I was never convicted of that murder.
68
00:06:09,202 --> 00:06:10,954
- But you confessed to it.
- Nope.
69
00:06:11,955 --> 00:06:15,417
On... June 27, 1969,
70
00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,060
you confessed to murdering
71
00:06:17,106 --> 00:06:19,403
Laura Sullivan, Jane
Weber, and Kathy Schmidt.
72
00:06:19,462 --> 00:06:21,631
- Don't go by that.
- Why not?
73
00:06:21,715 --> 00:06:23,592
It was given under coercion.
74
00:06:23,675 --> 00:06:25,176
You're saying it was forced?
75
00:06:25,260 --> 00:06:27,304
I am looking
at three consecutive life sentences
76
00:06:27,387 --> 00:06:30,015
thanks to an elaborate plot
by the Portland PD.
77
00:06:30,932 --> 00:06:33,560
You pleaded guilty
to three counts of murder.
78
00:06:33,643 --> 00:06:36,021
They drugged me. Beat me.
79
00:06:36,104 --> 00:06:38,064
Wouldn't let me talk to a lawyer.
80
00:06:38,148 --> 00:06:39,649
Turned away my wife.
81
00:06:40,567 --> 00:06:43,028
Told me they'd go after my kids
if I didn't confess.
82
00:06:43,111 --> 00:06:45,030
Are you saying
you never met Laura Sullivan?
83
00:06:45,113 --> 00:06:47,866
Yeah, I met her.
She was wandering around my front yard.
84
00:06:47,949 --> 00:06:49,509
- Selling encyclopedias.
- That's right.
85
00:06:49,533 --> 00:06:51,059
That part of the confession is correct?
86
00:06:51,084 --> 00:06:52,239
Sure.
87
00:06:52,537 --> 00:06:54,164
You said...
88
00:06:55,624 --> 00:06:56,625
she was lost.
89
00:06:56,708 --> 00:06:59,461
It was raining,
she couldn't find the right address.
90
00:06:59,544 --> 00:07:01,963
But you told her
that you ordered the encyclopedias.
91
00:07:02,047 --> 00:07:03,047
Nope.
92
00:07:03,673 --> 00:07:04,674
You didn't say that?
93
00:07:04,758 --> 00:07:05,925
We got to chatting.
94
00:07:07,052 --> 00:07:08,970
She was an aspiring model.
95
00:07:09,054 --> 00:07:12,641
Not surprising, she was beautiful.
96
00:07:14,559 --> 00:07:16,519
I said I'd take some photos of her.
97
00:07:18,319 --> 00:07:19,946
Is that when you invited her in,
98
00:07:20,013 --> 00:07:21,359
- took her to the garage?
- Yep.
99
00:07:21,384 --> 00:07:23,777
Sent your wife and children out
to get hamburgers?
100
00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:25,195
I thought we could use privacy.
101
00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:27,530
Then you hit her with a two-by-four?
102
00:07:31,159 --> 00:07:33,620
Actually,
I realized I didn't have any film.
103
00:07:34,245 --> 00:07:36,790
I apologized for wasting her time,
showed her out.
104
00:07:38,708 --> 00:07:39,709
Okay.
105
00:07:41,252 --> 00:07:43,264
The day before you met Laura Sullivan.
106
00:07:43,978 --> 00:07:45,527
Can you tell me what you were feeling?
107
00:07:45,552 --> 00:07:48,635
You consider yourself a bit
of a photographer, right, Jerry?
108
00:07:48,718 --> 00:07:51,096
Got my first camera at 15.
109
00:07:51,179 --> 00:07:52,514
You're into ladies' fashions?
110
00:07:52,597 --> 00:07:55,767
Mm... it's women, isn't it?
Can't call them ladies anymore.
111
00:07:55,850 --> 00:07:57,227
Women's fashions.
112
00:07:57,310 --> 00:07:59,688
I've got my magazine subscriptions,
I know what's going on.
113
00:07:59,771 --> 00:08:02,232
- You subscribe to...
- Mostly shoe catalogs.
114
00:08:03,191 --> 00:08:04,192
Shoe catalogs.
115
00:08:04,275 --> 00:08:05,360
It's my smut.
116
00:08:05,443 --> 00:08:06,987
So you masturbate to it?
117
00:08:07,779 --> 00:08:09,322
That's usually how it works.
118
00:08:09,406 --> 00:08:11,408
Did you masturbate
to the photos of your victims?
119
00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:13,994
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
120
00:08:14,077 --> 00:08:16,246
The photos the police found
in your garage?
121
00:08:17,789 --> 00:08:20,125
Did you see them?
122
00:08:20,208 --> 00:08:22,836
They're sloppy. I didn't take those.
123
00:08:22,919 --> 00:08:25,422
Actually, we did see them.
There's one of them...
124
00:08:25,505 --> 00:08:27,007
Holden, maybe you can find it.
125
00:08:36,099 --> 00:08:37,892
Did you take this picture?
126
00:08:40,228 --> 00:08:41,228
I don't remember.
127
00:08:42,105 --> 00:08:44,566
Ever since the kids were small,
I get these blackouts.
128
00:08:44,649 --> 00:08:46,401
It's hypoglycemia, low blood sugar.
129
00:08:46,484 --> 00:08:50,113
I could walk off the roof of a building
and not know it.
130
00:08:52,782 --> 00:08:53,782
You see that?
131
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:56,828
That's you in the photo.
132
00:08:57,495 --> 00:08:59,456
Which means you took this photo.
133
00:09:00,331 --> 00:09:01,916
Which means you killed that girl.
134
00:09:04,961 --> 00:09:06,546
Boy, oh, boy.
135
00:09:08,423 --> 00:09:09,466
Kemper was right.
136
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,360
Kemper?
137
00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:13,428
He said you guys were idiots.
138
00:09:15,305 --> 00:09:18,224
But I'd call you fucking morons.
139
00:09:20,268 --> 00:09:22,479
Big Ed with his big mouth.
140
00:09:23,313 --> 00:09:28,860
I bet you swallowed
every fucking line that came out of him.
141
00:09:28,943 --> 00:09:30,403
And he must have loved it.
142
00:09:30,487 --> 00:09:34,449
Wait a minute. As far as I know,
all his communication is monitored.
143
00:09:34,532 --> 00:09:36,159
What can I say?
144
00:09:36,242 --> 00:09:38,411
Prisons are like knitting circles.
145
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,457
Word gets around.
146
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,546
Fuck if I know. We should find out.
147
00:09:48,637 --> 00:09:50,310
Well, yeah. It's got
to affect the study
148
00:09:50,335 --> 00:09:51,831
if our subjects are all pen pals.
149
00:09:51,883 --> 00:09:54,010
I'll call the superintendent
at Vacaville.
150
00:09:54,302 --> 00:09:55,887
Or let's just go back and ask.
151
00:09:56,638 --> 00:10:00,058
What are the chances
the warden's gonna know what's going on?
152
00:10:00,141 --> 00:10:01,434
You might as well call.
153
00:10:01,518 --> 00:10:03,645
Do you really think
that Kemper called us idiots?
154
00:10:04,229 --> 00:10:05,855
It doesn't sound like Ed to me.
155
00:10:08,733 --> 00:10:11,319
We could phone Kemper, ask him directly.
156
00:10:11,402 --> 00:10:14,656
- Ask him if he called us idiots?
- If he talks to Brudos.
157
00:10:14,739 --> 00:10:16,616
Then we would be idiots.
158
00:10:16,699 --> 00:10:19,327
Excuse me.
I believe I'm in the middle seat.
159
00:10:19,410 --> 00:10:22,288
Oh, yeah? Well, that's all right.
You can have the aisle.
160
00:10:22,372 --> 00:10:24,958
Yes, but that's the seat number
on my ticket.
161
00:10:25,041 --> 00:10:28,128
It's okay. My partner and I need
to talk, works out for both of us.
162
00:10:29,629 --> 00:10:33,091
I really think it's best if I sat
in the seat that's on my ticket.
163
00:10:41,057 --> 00:10:42,267
Thank you.
164
00:10:55,738 --> 00:10:56,823
Hey, Holden.
165
00:10:58,116 --> 00:10:59,325
Does this turn you on?
166
00:11:00,994 --> 00:11:02,036
Oh...
167
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,247
- But it's sexy, right?
- Well, no.
168
00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:05,957
How different is it from this?
169
00:11:07,959 --> 00:11:09,586
I'd say it's pretty different.
170
00:11:10,253 --> 00:11:11,588
To us, maybe.
171
00:11:12,255 --> 00:11:13,256
This one...
172
00:11:13,339 --> 00:11:15,758
This could be in Playboy, easy.
173
00:11:17,302 --> 00:11:19,178
Movies, TV.
174
00:11:19,262 --> 00:11:21,306
Classic damsel in distress.
175
00:11:21,973 --> 00:11:24,809
So what are you saying,
advertising creates psychos?
176
00:11:24,893 --> 00:11:26,311
All men are pervs?
177
00:11:26,394 --> 00:11:28,813
No, but sex is our trigger.
178
00:11:29,397 --> 00:11:30,773
I'm sure Wendy has a theory.
179
00:11:30,857 --> 00:11:33,568
But this? This is how we get to him.
180
00:11:37,697 --> 00:11:40,033
Please. I can switch with you.
181
00:11:40,658 --> 00:11:42,201
I'm enjoying the leg room.
182
00:11:45,455 --> 00:11:49,959
What can I say?
Prisons are like knitting circles.
183
00:11:50,043 --> 00:11:52,629
Word gets around.
184
00:11:55,006 --> 00:11:56,716
- Fascinating.
- You think so?
185
00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:01,596
Hypoglycemia? Is he lying or denying?
186
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:02,889
My vote's with lying.
187
00:12:03,932 --> 00:12:05,892
We can learn from what
he doesn't tell us.
188
00:12:05,975 --> 00:12:08,256
You're not always going to get
a Chatty Cathy like Kemper.
189
00:12:08,311 --> 00:12:10,271
Well, yeah,
the whole talking to Kemper thing.
190
00:12:10,355 --> 00:12:12,899
We called around.
There's no evidence they were in touch.
191
00:12:12,982 --> 00:12:15,652
- Which doesn't mean they haven't.
- God, if only...
192
00:12:15,959 --> 00:12:18,080
If they're corresponding,
it could screw up our thing.
193
00:12:18,105 --> 00:12:19,130
Really?
194
00:12:19,155 --> 00:12:21,755
How is the study valid
if our subjects can compare notes?
195
00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:24,661
Wouldn't it be... cross-contamination?
196
00:12:24,744 --> 00:12:26,621
What would these two guys talk about?
197
00:12:26,704 --> 00:12:28,744
Would Brudos share with Kemper
everything he's done?
198
00:12:29,374 --> 00:12:32,168
These are two organized killers,
but they're on opposite sides
199
00:12:32,251 --> 00:12:34,291
of the spectrum when it comes to
what they'll admit.
200
00:12:34,337 --> 00:12:36,089
Kemper is overly forthcoming.
201
00:12:36,172 --> 00:12:39,258
Brudos denies everything,
even when confronted with evidence.
202
00:12:40,718 --> 00:12:42,804
It's a new behavior to sort by:
203
00:12:42,887 --> 00:12:46,057
post-conviction admission
or non-admission of guilt.
204
00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:47,180
You're excited about this.
205
00:12:47,953 --> 00:12:48,953
I am.
206
00:12:48,977 --> 00:12:51,562
We didn't get anything useful
out of that prick.
207
00:12:51,646 --> 00:12:52,689
I'm telling you, you did.
208
00:12:52,772 --> 00:12:56,234
Maybe in an academic sense,
but this isn't only about your study.
209
00:12:56,317 --> 00:12:57,443
My study?
210
00:12:57,527 --> 00:13:00,029
Once we've collected all the data,
we can all apply it.
211
00:13:00,113 --> 00:13:01,823
You mean, in four years?
212
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:03,658
I need coffee.
213
00:13:10,248 --> 00:13:12,709
- The way he lies is very interesting.
- How so?
214
00:13:12,792 --> 00:13:14,210
Well, it's just so exaggerated.
215
00:13:14,293 --> 00:13:16,087
He can't possibly expect you
to believe him.
216
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:17,922
We called him on a lie,
showed him evidence,
217
00:13:18,006 --> 00:13:19,424
and that ended the interview.
218
00:13:19,507 --> 00:13:21,092
So don't back him into a corner.
219
00:13:21,175 --> 00:13:23,761
Guys, post-conviction sorting?
What good is that?
220
00:13:23,845 --> 00:13:25,930
We need pre-apprehension info, not post.
221
00:13:26,597 --> 00:13:28,683
You know, Bill,
all categories are important
222
00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:30,518
for cross-referencing and sorting.
223
00:13:30,601 --> 00:13:33,229
I bet you dinner
that this guy's got more to add.
224
00:13:34,788 --> 00:13:36,654
You read the story about the
girl he held at knifepoint
225
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:37,945
when he was 15?
226
00:13:38,192 --> 00:13:40,486
Made her undress, took pictures,
locked her in a corncrib.
227
00:13:40,570 --> 00:13:42,530
Then pretended to be
his own twin brother.
228
00:13:42,613 --> 00:13:44,157
Right. And he talked all about Jerry.
229
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,325
- That shows how fucked up he is.
- Maybe.
230
00:13:46,409 --> 00:13:48,929
There's something about disguise,
pretending to be someone else.
231
00:13:48,953 --> 00:13:50,497
It gives him room for what?
232
00:13:51,664 --> 00:13:53,958
He said he started blacking out
when his kids were small.
233
00:13:54,042 --> 00:13:56,294
So he isn't averse
to talking about his family.
234
00:13:56,377 --> 00:13:58,046
Bill, you could talk about your son.
235
00:13:58,129 --> 00:13:59,714
- No.
- Try.
236
00:13:59,797 --> 00:14:01,466
I'm not discussing my son with him.
237
00:14:01,549 --> 00:14:04,229
Well, you don't have to talk
about your family. You can make one up.
238
00:14:04,302 --> 00:14:06,054
It's just about building rapport.
239
00:14:06,137 --> 00:14:10,099
And he asked for stuff,
cigarettes and pizza. Indulge him.
240
00:14:14,604 --> 00:14:16,522
- When do you want to go back?
- I don't.
241
00:14:17,231 --> 00:14:18,231
Next week?
242
00:14:20,193 --> 00:14:21,193
Sure.
243
00:14:27,742 --> 00:14:30,828
Hey, Holden. I asked a buddy of mine
with the Portland PD.
244
00:14:30,912 --> 00:14:31,954
You might want to...
245
00:14:33,664 --> 00:14:34,664
On two.
246
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:51,182
- Hello?
- Mrs. Cooke?
247
00:14:51,265 --> 00:14:53,059
- Yes?
- Who's Mrs. Cooke?
248
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:55,561
- Mrs. Darcie Cooke?
- Yes?
249
00:14:55,645 --> 00:14:58,731
Hi. My name is Bill Tench,
I'm with the FBI.
250
00:15:01,067 --> 00:15:02,276
Is this about Jer?
251
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,987
About your ex-husband, Mr. Brudos.
252
00:15:05,822 --> 00:15:08,324
Am I required to talk to you?
253
00:15:08,408 --> 00:15:11,035
Well, no, but I only have
a couple of questions.
254
00:15:11,119 --> 00:15:13,996
I'm sorry,
I changed my last name for a reason.
255
00:15:19,335 --> 00:15:21,421
She said, "Is this about Jer?"
256
00:15:21,921 --> 00:15:22,921
"Jer."
257
00:15:24,632 --> 00:15:27,427
Those shirts looked good on you.
I can't believe you didn't buy them.
258
00:15:27,885 --> 00:15:29,262
I don't like patterns.
259
00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:32,265
You know you dress the same
off-duty as on-duty?
260
00:15:32,348 --> 00:15:33,975
I'm wearing plain clothes.
261
00:15:34,058 --> 00:15:35,977
Yeah, plain is right.
262
00:15:41,441 --> 00:15:43,234
- Ooh...
- No.
263
00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:50,199
Seven and a half.
264
00:15:50,283 --> 00:15:53,035
- Are you sure? I usually wear a seven.
- Hmm.
265
00:15:53,578 --> 00:15:55,371
Your shoes been a little tight lately?
266
00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:57,957
My boots, maybe, a little.
267
00:15:58,541 --> 00:16:01,878
Okay. Tell you what. I'll bring out
seven-and-a-half in all these.
268
00:16:03,004 --> 00:16:05,590
Yes, please. Are my feet getting bigger?
269
00:16:07,091 --> 00:16:09,969
Well, it's just half a size.
It's not that big a deal.
270
00:16:10,052 --> 00:16:11,304
I don't want big feet.
271
00:16:12,138 --> 00:16:15,391
- You do not have big feet.
- That's right, and I don't want them.
272
00:16:18,394 --> 00:16:20,521
- No way.
- Come on.
273
00:16:21,147 --> 00:16:22,565
I don't need new shoes.
274
00:16:23,191 --> 00:16:24,233
Please.
275
00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:41,250
- You look bitchin'.
- Can I take it off now?
276
00:16:41,334 --> 00:16:43,669
- You don't like them?
- I look like a Village Person.
277
00:16:43,753 --> 00:16:44,754
Ugh! Holden.
278
00:16:53,971 --> 00:16:55,932
- Excuse me, sir.
- Yes.
279
00:16:56,724 --> 00:16:59,435
Could you tell me the largest size
you have of that shoe?
280
00:16:59,714 --> 00:17:00,718
That one?
281
00:17:00,743 --> 00:17:02,179
- Yeah.
- I'm not sure.
282
00:17:02,204 --> 00:17:03,296
I have to go take a look.
283
00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:05,191
Could you put a pair on hold for me?
284
00:17:06,275 --> 00:17:07,275
Sure.
285
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,306
Hello, ladies.
286
00:17:38,182 --> 00:17:39,392
Back for more?
287
00:17:39,475 --> 00:17:40,810
Tell us where to sit.
288
00:17:42,144 --> 00:17:44,146
That won't be necessary this time.
289
00:17:45,064 --> 00:17:46,190
Great.
290
00:17:50,736 --> 00:17:51,736
Want to arm wrestle?
291
00:17:53,197 --> 00:17:54,407
How about a smoke?
292
00:17:55,616 --> 00:17:57,243
Well, well, well.
293
00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:01,330
I want him to light me.
294
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,169
How'd you get that scar?
295
00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:09,839
Darcie...
296
00:18:09,922 --> 00:18:13,009
found out I was chasing skirt at OSU.
297
00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:15,636
- Came after me with a Ginsu.
- No, really.
298
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,013
God's truth.
299
00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:19,765
She loved horror films.
300
00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:22,018
We'd appreciate honesty.
301
00:18:22,101 --> 00:18:23,311
About my scar?
302
00:18:25,646 --> 00:18:28,065
We know that you've been jumped in here
a few times.
303
00:18:29,859 --> 00:18:32,987
If you got all the answers,
what do you need from me?
304
00:18:33,070 --> 00:18:35,526
- We want details.
- We want to know why.
305
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:36,668
Why what?
306
00:18:36,713 --> 00:18:38,242
Let's start with the women's clothes.
307
00:18:38,326 --> 00:18:40,286
Could you be more specific?
308
00:18:40,369 --> 00:18:42,022
In her testimony,
309
00:18:42,109 --> 00:18:45,190
your wife said you approached
her dressed as a woman.
310
00:18:45,249 --> 00:18:46,834
Hmm... she said...
311
00:18:48,294 --> 00:18:50,880
whatever the police wanted her to say.
312
00:18:50,963 --> 00:18:53,924
But you did approach her
dressed as a woman.
313
00:18:54,008 --> 00:18:55,635
- Are you married?
- Yeah.
314
00:18:55,718 --> 00:18:58,179
- What's your wife's name?
- None of your business.
315
00:18:58,262 --> 00:18:59,847
I appreciate honesty.
316
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:03,600
Nancy.
317
00:19:04,101 --> 00:19:07,813
How does Nancy deal with things
that she doesn't understand?
318
00:19:07,897 --> 00:19:09,148
I don't follow.
319
00:19:09,231 --> 00:19:10,983
Let's just say, my wife...
320
00:19:12,777 --> 00:19:14,612
was less than adventurous.
321
00:19:14,695 --> 00:19:18,157
- You were young when you got married.
- Twenty-two. She was 17.
322
00:19:18,491 --> 00:19:20,826
- What was it about her?
- She popped my cherry.
323
00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:22,370
That seems old-fashioned.
324
00:19:22,453 --> 00:19:24,705
You married the first girl
you had sex with?
325
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:27,083
It wasn't that unusual in 1961.
326
00:19:27,166 --> 00:19:30,795
But you had... "interests" by then.
327
00:19:31,295 --> 00:19:33,631
Stealing lingerie off of clotheslines.
328
00:19:33,714 --> 00:19:36,717
You photographed a neighborhood girl
naked when you were 15.
329
00:19:36,801 --> 00:19:39,470
Just a healthy, red-blooded
American male.
330
00:19:39,553 --> 00:19:41,972
- What about the shoes?
- What shoes?
331
00:19:42,056 --> 00:19:43,307
In your garage.
332
00:19:43,391 --> 00:19:44,934
- The women's shoes.
- Ah.
333
00:19:45,017 --> 00:19:47,353
The wife loved to shop.
334
00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:50,773
There were nearly a hundred pairs.
Most of them size 16.
335
00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:53,192
Ah, those. Friends sent those to me.
336
00:19:53,275 --> 00:19:54,860
- Friends?
- That's right.
337
00:19:54,944 --> 00:19:56,821
Why would friends send you shoes?
338
00:20:00,282 --> 00:20:02,576
Started as a goof. Got out of hand.
339
00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:03,660
That's interesting.
340
00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:07,748
- What's that?
- Hmm?
341
00:20:10,584 --> 00:20:12,545
A reward for honesty.
342
00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:15,589
Come on, Jerry. Your friends
didn't send you those shoes.
343
00:20:15,673 --> 00:20:18,843
What can I say, I'm a collector.
344
00:20:18,926 --> 00:20:20,010
Do you wear them?
345
00:20:20,094 --> 00:20:21,595
I don't have to.
346
00:20:21,679 --> 00:20:23,639
Don't have to, to what?
347
00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:26,100
- You know.
- Get off.
348
00:20:26,911 --> 00:20:27,911
He's adorable.
349
00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:30,146
I thought wearing them
was part of the allure?
350
00:20:32,273 --> 00:20:35,526
- Why's he so interested?
- I'm really just asking for Darcie.
351
00:20:35,609 --> 00:20:38,154
She still doesn't get it.
We caught up on the phone.
352
00:20:38,237 --> 00:20:39,739
- Right.
- Nice woman.
353
00:20:41,073 --> 00:20:42,241
My wife...
354
00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:44,226
wouldn't talk about me.
355
00:20:44,273 --> 00:20:45,327
Ex-wife.
356
00:20:45,411 --> 00:20:47,413
She had to divorce
me to protect the kids.
357
00:20:47,496 --> 00:20:48,998
And change her last name?
358
00:20:50,458 --> 00:20:53,043
I'm sure it makes it
easier for them in school.
359
00:20:53,127 --> 00:20:54,962
What would they say to their friends?
360
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:58,132
Not just about the murders.
How do you explain the cross-dressing?
361
00:20:58,215 --> 00:21:00,426
"Dad's a tranny? Dad's a fag?"
362
00:21:00,509 --> 00:21:01,969
Fuck you, man.
363
00:21:02,052 --> 00:21:04,346
How does it fucking work with the shoes?
364
00:21:05,055 --> 00:21:07,600
He is dying to know.
365
00:21:07,683 --> 00:21:11,145
I'll pass it along to Darcie.
Ten years later, she's still confused.
366
00:21:11,228 --> 00:21:14,273
- Give her my love.
- I'll do that... Jer.
367
00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:19,319
Tony! Hey!
368
00:21:19,862 --> 00:21:21,363
- Get in here!
- What are you doing?
369
00:21:21,447 --> 00:21:22,567
Go fuck yourselves.
370
00:21:22,591 --> 00:21:24,909
- They're just questions.
- I've had enough.
371
00:21:24,992 --> 00:21:26,792
- What's going on?
- I'm done.
372
00:21:26,816 --> 00:21:28,401
- Wait a minute.
- I'm done!
373
00:21:28,484 --> 00:21:29,830
Bill, tell him.
374
00:21:29,914 --> 00:21:32,917
We didn't talk to your stupid wife.
She hung up on us.
375
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,835
And you're forgetting something.
376
00:21:56,774 --> 00:21:58,692
Ah...
377
00:22:00,069 --> 00:22:01,153
Brand new.
378
00:22:01,737 --> 00:22:03,572
They're the biggest size they had.
379
00:22:11,247 --> 00:22:13,749
You should have brought me
a pair of Nancy's.
380
00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:15,459
- Fuck you.
- Fuck you.
381
00:22:27,054 --> 00:22:30,182
So when did it start,
your interest in women's shoes?
382
00:22:30,266 --> 00:22:32,184
It didn't start. It was always there.
383
00:22:33,143 --> 00:22:37,523
There must have been a moment
during puberty when it became... sexual.
384
00:22:37,606 --> 00:22:39,733
I got my first pair of heels at five.
385
00:22:39,817 --> 00:22:40,817
Five?
386
00:22:41,443 --> 00:22:43,988
- Five years old?
- Stilettos.
387
00:22:44,071 --> 00:22:46,490
Found them in the junkyard,
brought 'em home.
388
00:22:46,574 --> 00:22:47,575
Why?
389
00:22:47,658 --> 00:22:50,703
Never seen anything like 'em before,
except in pictures.
390
00:22:50,786 --> 00:22:52,621
Didn't your mom wear heels?
391
00:22:52,705 --> 00:22:53,706
Never.
392
00:22:55,499 --> 00:22:57,219
What'd she think
when you brought them home?
393
00:23:04,967 --> 00:23:07,219
One time,
my mom walked in on me jacking off.
394
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:08,970
Came into my bedroom.
395
00:23:09,013 --> 00:23:11,390
- I hadn't locked the door.
- Really?
396
00:23:12,808 --> 00:23:13,934
- Yeah.
- What'd she do?
397
00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:16,270
I'd never seen her so shocked.
398
00:23:16,353 --> 00:23:19,231
It's like I was doing something
too horrible to even imagine.
399
00:23:19,315 --> 00:23:20,858
She thought I needed help.
400
00:23:21,275 --> 00:23:23,235
She offered to help?
401
00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:27,865
Psychological help.
402
00:23:27,948 --> 00:23:31,827
- My mom burned the shoes.
- The stilettos?
403
00:23:31,910 --> 00:23:33,829
Dragged me into the backyard,
404
00:23:33,912 --> 00:23:36,165
poured kerosene all
over 'em, lit 'em up.
405
00:23:36,915 --> 00:23:39,835
- That must have been memorable.
- She always said she wanted a girl.
406
00:23:41,503 --> 00:23:43,297
She wanted you to be a girl?
407
00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:45,591
She had my brother,
that's what she wanted next.
408
00:23:45,674 --> 00:23:47,718
- She told you this?
- All the time.
409
00:23:47,801 --> 00:23:50,054
Why was she so upset
when you brought home the shoes?
410
00:23:50,846 --> 00:23:52,931
I was wearing 'em around the house.
411
00:23:54,099 --> 00:23:56,393
Were you trying to be
what she wanted you to be?
412
00:23:56,477 --> 00:23:57,477
What?
413
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:00,189
Were you trying to be a girl?
414
00:24:02,983 --> 00:24:06,362
Fuck no, I never wanted to be a girl.
415
00:24:06,945 --> 00:24:08,989
I liked the shoes.
416
00:24:09,073 --> 00:24:11,659
I didn't know why she was so angry.
417
00:24:11,742 --> 00:24:13,195
I took a pair of my teacher's shoes,
418
00:24:13,220 --> 00:24:15,103
and she didn't lose her fucking mind.
419
00:24:15,162 --> 00:24:16,246
Your teacher's shoes?
420
00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:18,207
Mrs. Kernegan. First grade.
421
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:21,395
She'd kick her shoes
off under the desk.
422
00:24:21,420 --> 00:24:22,430
Heels?
423
00:24:22,455 --> 00:24:25,255
Low, but stylish.
She checked our book bags.
424
00:24:25,339 --> 00:24:28,217
When she found them on me,
I thought she'd go berserk,
425
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:31,136
but... she was just curious.
426
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:33,222
- About what?
- Why I had taken them.
427
00:24:37,768 --> 00:24:40,229
Women always want to know, don't they?
428
00:24:40,979 --> 00:24:43,357
- At least they think they do.
- Did Darcie want to know?
429
00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:48,696
It's tricky when you're married.
430
00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:52,282
You either have to deny yourself or...
431
00:24:52,866 --> 00:24:54,410
keep a private space.
432
00:24:54,493 --> 00:24:55,619
Like a golf course.
433
00:24:57,830 --> 00:25:00,499
I put a lock on the garage,
installed an intercom
434
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:03,022
so she could call in if she needed
something from the freezer.
435
00:25:03,085 --> 00:25:04,631
Wouldn't want her
finding your trophies.
436
00:25:08,006 --> 00:25:11,468
She would not have wanted that.
437
00:25:37,411 --> 00:25:38,620
What the fuck?
438
00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:44,333
Tony!
439
00:25:44,877 --> 00:25:47,254
- That was amazing.
- Yeah, that was great.
440
00:25:47,337 --> 00:25:49,423
All that shit
about his mom burning the shoes.
441
00:25:49,506 --> 00:25:50,506
Uh-huh.
442
00:25:51,133 --> 00:25:52,426
The high heels worked.
443
00:25:52,509 --> 00:25:53,802
You could say that.
444
00:25:54,511 --> 00:25:55,763
Let me ask you something.
445
00:25:56,305 --> 00:25:58,432
Was that true about your mom
walking in on you?
446
00:25:58,515 --> 00:26:00,893
- Yeah.
- It didn't bother you, using that?
447
00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:03,562
Who doesn't have a weird story
about their mom and sex?
448
00:26:03,854 --> 00:26:07,649
You're telling a private, personal story
to a murderous asshole.
449
00:26:10,611 --> 00:26:11,653
It bothered me.
450
00:26:18,535 --> 00:26:21,914
Is this about Nancy?
451
00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:26,436
Nothing wrong with...
452
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:28,378
If what we're doing
doesn't get under your skin,
453
00:26:28,462 --> 00:26:30,923
you're more screwed up than I thought
or kidding yourself.
454
00:26:48,857 --> 00:26:52,569
You're just like a son to me.
You never did nothing I told you to do.
455
00:26:54,780 --> 00:26:58,492
Hey, Archie. We want you
and Ma to come visit us out there.
456
00:26:59,368 --> 00:27:02,538
Well, maybe your mother-in-law
can do that, but, you know...
457
00:28:22,242 --> 00:28:23,242
Hello?
458
00:28:25,412 --> 00:28:27,456
Where are you?
459
00:29:54,543 --> 00:29:57,004
They almost said it was our fault.
460
00:29:57,087 --> 00:30:00,757
Jesus, Nancy. I don't know what to say.
461
00:30:00,841 --> 00:30:03,260
Well, I was hoping
for a little more than that.
462
00:30:03,343 --> 00:30:05,178
I can't talk about this now. Okay?
463
00:30:05,262 --> 00:30:07,822
Brian's teacher thinks we're not
paying enough attention to this.
464
00:30:08,557 --> 00:30:10,434
That's why he's acting out.
465
00:30:11,393 --> 00:30:13,113
- We have to do something.
- Uh-huh.
466
00:30:13,854 --> 00:30:16,648
Is that a "Uh-huh, I know,"
or is that "Uh-huh, uh-huh"?
467
00:30:16,732 --> 00:30:18,066
The first.
468
00:30:20,027 --> 00:30:21,945
You want to go
to Lamplighter tonight or not?
469
00:30:22,029 --> 00:30:24,197
Sure. But why are you being like this?
470
00:30:24,281 --> 00:30:26,992
Like I said, I really can't talk
about this now. Okay?
471
00:30:27,701 --> 00:30:29,244
- Did you finish it?
- I did.
472
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:32,331
It's pretty great, right?
473
00:30:32,414 --> 00:30:34,499
Can you believe
what he said about his mom?
474
00:30:37,377 --> 00:30:39,212
- Did you listen to it?
- Mm-hmm.
475
00:30:41,381 --> 00:30:43,258
What's in the box?
476
00:30:43,342 --> 00:30:45,802
Holden's idea. You figure it out?
477
00:30:45,886 --> 00:30:47,512
I'm guessing shoes.
478
00:30:47,596 --> 00:30:48,847
He got an erection.
479
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:51,475
- Isn't that what you wanted?
- We wanted to get him talking.
480
00:30:51,558 --> 00:30:53,053
No, you baited him with those shoes
481
00:30:53,078 --> 00:30:54,358
and you lied to him about his wife.
482
00:30:54,394 --> 00:30:57,147
He pulled that bullshit about Kemper,
so we used the same tactic.
483
00:30:57,230 --> 00:31:00,609
- So it was revenge?
- No. Speaking his language.
484
00:31:00,692 --> 00:31:02,986
This is a scientific study,
not a locker room hazing.
485
00:31:03,070 --> 00:31:04,488
- Let me explain.
- Please.
486
00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:06,948
Guys communicate in a certain way.
487
00:31:07,032 --> 00:31:10,369
It can be rough, but it's like a code,
it gets out the conflict.
488
00:31:10,452 --> 00:31:12,746
Well, thank you for illuminating me
on male rituals.
489
00:31:13,205 --> 00:31:15,165
You threw our questionnaire
right out the window.
490
00:31:15,248 --> 00:31:16,888
Your questionnaire,
which wasn't working.
491
00:31:16,917 --> 00:31:18,365
All you wanted to do was force him
492
00:31:18,390 --> 00:31:19,944
to admit that he wears women's clothes.
493
00:31:20,003 --> 00:31:22,047
Yeah, get under his disguise.
494
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:24,257
Cross-dressing
is part of his psychology.
495
00:31:24,341 --> 00:31:28,011
His fixation on women's clothes,
women's bodies, wanting to own them,
496
00:31:28,095 --> 00:31:29,471
wanting to inhabit them.
497
00:31:29,554 --> 00:31:32,265
If we can understand that,
we can recognize it in another killer.
498
00:31:32,349 --> 00:31:35,950
Cross-dressing is not an antecedent
to homicidal behavior.
499
00:31:35,997 --> 00:31:37,079
I didn't say that.
500
00:31:37,104 --> 00:31:39,689
For most people,
it's a harmless form of expression.
501
00:31:39,773 --> 00:31:41,274
- Most people?
- Those who do it.
502
00:31:41,358 --> 00:31:44,528
But it's usually sexual, right?
And we know sex drives our subjects.
503
00:31:44,611 --> 00:31:45,821
It's sometimes sexual.
504
00:31:45,904 --> 00:31:48,490
Transvestism has been practiced
in every era,
505
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:49,973
- in every human culture.
- Come on.
506
00:31:49,997 --> 00:31:51,993
If you want to teach a class,
go back to Boston.
507
00:31:52,077 --> 00:31:53,745
No, you weren't speaking his language.
508
00:31:53,829 --> 00:31:55,642
You were persecuting
him about something
509
00:31:55,667 --> 00:31:57,688
that challenges your masculinity.
510
00:31:57,916 --> 00:31:59,709
- What?
- That interview was personal.
511
00:31:59,793 --> 00:32:02,671
- No, this is personal.
- Guys.
512
00:32:02,754 --> 00:32:04,381
- You're being irrational.
- Oh, Jesus.
513
00:32:04,464 --> 00:32:06,144
- Where's this coming from?
- I don't know.
514
00:32:06,168 --> 00:32:08,510
Maybe shock
at your total lack of objectivity.
515
00:32:08,593 --> 00:32:10,353
- We were supposed to be objective?
- Mm-hmm.
516
00:32:10,377 --> 00:32:12,010
I seem to remember you encouraging us
517
00:32:12,037 --> 00:32:13,622
to use our families to get to him.
518
00:32:13,682 --> 00:32:16,017
- How objective is that?
- We have to use strategies.
519
00:32:16,101 --> 00:32:18,895
I said use fake information,
as long as you establish rapport...
520
00:32:18,979 --> 00:32:21,523
That's not what you said.
And it's not possible.
521
00:32:21,606 --> 00:32:23,167
It is not possible to communicate
522
00:32:23,192 --> 00:32:24,925
with someone like Brudos and be fake.
523
00:32:24,985 --> 00:32:27,278
We can hassle him or
we can open up to him,
524
00:32:27,303 --> 00:32:29,054
but either option has a cost.
525
00:32:34,494 --> 00:32:35,871
Musical therapy.
526
00:32:37,164 --> 00:32:38,790
She comes highly recommended.
527
00:32:38,874 --> 00:32:41,376
She has like ten years
of experience... Oh.
528
00:32:48,008 --> 00:32:49,008
Thank you.
529
00:32:50,635 --> 00:32:53,388
The only thing is,
she's in Charlottesville.
530
00:32:54,347 --> 00:32:56,183
I looked for someone in D.C.
531
00:32:56,433 --> 00:32:59,394
You'd think they'd have
music therapists in D.C.
532
00:32:59,478 --> 00:33:00,938
with all the politicians' kids there,
533
00:33:00,963 --> 00:33:04,173
but... maybe it's considered
too alternative.
534
00:33:05,233 --> 00:33:08,028
I don't know that she's a hippie.
I only talked to her on the phone.
535
00:33:08,111 --> 00:33:11,198
But she... she sounded very nice.
536
00:33:11,907 --> 00:33:12,908
Professional.
537
00:33:20,207 --> 00:33:21,750
I could drive him there once a week.
538
00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:23,713
Maybe even get him out of school
a little early,
539
00:33:23,793 --> 00:33:26,796
which could also be a good thing,
after what happened today.
540
00:33:30,133 --> 00:33:32,177
- How much is she?
- Forty-five.
541
00:33:33,595 --> 00:33:34,846
An hour?
542
00:33:34,930 --> 00:33:36,264
An hour and a half.
543
00:33:37,682 --> 00:33:40,685
- Nancy, that's a lot.
- You spend that much on a golf club.
544
00:33:41,728 --> 00:33:44,105
Yeah, but when you buy a club,
you have the club.
545
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:50,529
I got a recommendation
for a child psychologist in Woodbridge,
546
00:33:50,612 --> 00:33:51,696
much closer.
547
00:33:52,614 --> 00:33:54,866
- You got a recommendation? When?
- Mm-hmm.
548
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:56,576
About a month ago.
549
00:33:56,660 --> 00:33:57,869
Why didn't you tell me?
550
00:33:58,370 --> 00:34:00,664
Because I really don't want
to send him to a shrink.
551
00:34:00,747 --> 00:34:02,067
- Me neither.
- But at that price,
552
00:34:02,123 --> 00:34:04,793
I'd rather send him to a doctor
than some hippie musician.
553
00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:07,379
Please. This is not about the money.
554
00:34:07,462 --> 00:34:08,547
Of course not.
555
00:34:10,048 --> 00:34:11,049
I was...
556
00:34:14,761 --> 00:34:16,680
I was hoping it wouldn't go this far.
557
00:34:53,633 --> 00:34:54,926
It's a private school.
558
00:34:55,594 --> 00:34:58,305
If he keeps biting other children,
he's gonna get kicked out.
559
00:34:58,388 --> 00:35:00,849
He's getting bullied,
so he's defending himself.
560
00:35:01,308 --> 00:35:02,829
We should have held him back a year.
561
00:35:02,854 --> 00:35:04,501
I don't think that's the problem.
562
00:35:05,312 --> 00:35:07,522
He's fine with me,
he's great with Julie.
563
00:35:13,028 --> 00:35:15,655
I've read a couple of books
which recommend music therapy
564
00:35:15,739 --> 00:35:17,657
when a child needs
communication training.
565
00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:20,785
"Communication training."
Is that what the books call it?
566
00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:22,996
Sure describes what we need.
567
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,791
I'm exhausted, Nancy.
Could we table this for tonight?
568
00:35:31,463 --> 00:35:33,506
Looks like we gotta do it ourselves.
569
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:34,883
Let's work on these ropes.
570
00:35:36,868 --> 00:35:38,011
Hi, Julie.
571
00:35:38,094 --> 00:35:39,971
It's no use!
572
00:35:40,055 --> 00:35:42,599
We're home a little early tonight.
573
00:35:45,101 --> 00:35:46,394
Hey.
574
00:35:46,936 --> 00:35:48,313
Is everything okay?
575
00:35:49,064 --> 00:35:50,065
Is Brian all right?
576
00:35:50,148 --> 00:35:51,316
He's asleep.
577
00:35:52,817 --> 00:35:54,319
Did something happen?
578
00:35:54,402 --> 00:35:57,656
When I was putting him to bed,
I found something under it.
579
00:35:57,739 --> 00:35:59,783
- What did you find?
- I don't have change,
580
00:35:59,866 --> 00:36:01,159
so here's a little bonus.
581
00:36:05,955 --> 00:36:07,595
She found this under Brian's bed.
582
00:36:12,087 --> 00:36:13,254
Julie, I'm so sorry.
583
00:36:13,797 --> 00:36:16,899
You know I'm an FBI agent.
I work on some rough cases.
584
00:36:16,924 --> 00:36:18,486
He must have got this out of my office.
585
00:36:18,511 --> 00:36:19,973
I should lock that file cabinet.
586
00:36:20,011 --> 00:36:22,013
Honey, you shouldn't
have had to see that.
587
00:36:22,097 --> 00:36:23,181
Brian saw it, too.
588
00:36:23,264 --> 00:36:24,264
Of course.
589
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:27,185
- We really messed up.
- I messed up.
590
00:36:27,268 --> 00:36:28,436
He gets into things.
591
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,240
We need to keep a closer eye on him.
592
00:36:30,264 --> 00:36:32,524
- We'll find a way to explain it.
- I'll talk to him,
593
00:36:32,607 --> 00:36:34,447
make sure he understands
there's nothing wrong.
594
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:37,612
- Nothing's wrong?
- Honey, come here.
595
00:36:39,406 --> 00:36:41,241
- Are you all right?
- Um...
596
00:36:41,324 --> 00:36:42,670
I've been meaning to tell you,
597
00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:45,102
my parents want me to get
some real job experience,
598
00:36:45,161 --> 00:36:47,789
so I'm applying at the mall and...
599
00:36:47,872 --> 00:36:50,709
But you'd still be able
to sit for us sometimes, right?
600
00:36:51,292 --> 00:36:53,086
I think it's going to be hard.
601
00:36:53,169 --> 00:36:55,505
Julie, honey...
602
00:36:56,172 --> 00:36:57,716
you've been with us for years.
603
00:36:58,341 --> 00:36:59,718
I'm sorry, Mrs. Tench.
604
00:36:59,801 --> 00:37:01,052
Don't forget your money.
605
00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:05,974
Please say goodbye to Brian for me.
606
00:37:06,933 --> 00:37:07,933
Julie...
607
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:17,402
I know that file cabinet has a lock.
I just have to find the key.
608
00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:19,863
Or get a new one.
609
00:37:20,405 --> 00:37:21,990
That one's 20 years old.
610
00:37:23,575 --> 00:37:25,243
Kid's kind of a Houdini, though.
611
00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:27,120
Maybe I should get a safe.
612
00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:30,123
Why is it in the house at all?
613
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:34,002
It's work.
I have to bring it home sometimes.
614
00:37:34,085 --> 00:37:36,463
That? You have to bring that home?
615
00:37:37,714 --> 00:37:38,923
What do you do with it?
616
00:37:39,674 --> 00:37:41,676
Examine it for clues.
617
00:37:43,261 --> 00:37:45,513
You don't tell me a thing
about what you do.
618
00:37:46,097 --> 00:37:47,097
Now you know why.
619
00:37:47,474 --> 00:37:50,074
- You don't need to protect me.
- I'm trying to protect everybody.
620
00:37:50,098 --> 00:37:52,391
No, you need to protect your son.
621
00:37:53,021 --> 00:37:55,523
What was he doing in my office
in the first place?
622
00:37:56,524 --> 00:38:00,111
We can't watch him every second.
He's always trying to get in there.
623
00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:01,613
Because he knows it's not allowed.
624
00:38:01,696 --> 00:38:04,616
- I should put a lock on the door.
- He's trying to get closer to you!
625
00:38:05,784 --> 00:38:07,619
Sometimes I find him in our closet.
626
00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:10,538
He's putting on your ties.
He's walking around in your shoes.
627
00:38:13,082 --> 00:38:15,877
I'm here on the weekends now.
I'm putting in the time.
628
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,380
When you're not at the golf course,
you're angling to get there.
629
00:38:20,507 --> 00:38:22,509
When you're playing with him,
you check your watch.
630
00:38:22,592 --> 00:38:25,845
- Well, to be honest, he's not much fun.
- He's not much fun?!
631
00:38:25,929 --> 00:38:27,972
I know how that sounds, but I've tried.
632
00:38:28,056 --> 00:38:31,267
- He's just not interested.
- It takes more than turning up, Bill.
633
00:38:31,601 --> 00:38:35,104
Okay, you... you need to play with him.
634
00:38:35,188 --> 00:38:38,233
I can't have a conversation with him.
I can't get a hug out of him.
635
00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:40,235
I can't even get him
to look me in the eye.
636
00:38:40,318 --> 00:38:42,487
- He is not beyond hope.
- Well, maybe I am.
637
00:38:43,321 --> 00:38:44,489
Want to know what I do?
638
00:38:44,572 --> 00:38:46,908
Want to see what I work on every night?
Come on.
639
00:38:48,785 --> 00:38:49,994
That's the tip of the iceberg.
640
00:38:51,371 --> 00:38:53,790
A young mother with a boy Brian's age.
641
00:38:53,873 --> 00:38:55,750
Killer did the same thing to him.
642
00:38:55,834 --> 00:38:58,419
You want to see that photo?
I got it here somewhere.
643
00:38:59,045 --> 00:39:00,463
This one's interesting.
644
00:39:00,547 --> 00:39:03,258
A woman who was stabbed,
raped, breasts cut off.
645
00:39:03,341 --> 00:39:06,010
Turns out it was her boyfriend,
his brother, and their sister.
646
00:39:06,094 --> 00:39:07,387
A little family affair.
647
00:39:08,096 --> 00:39:09,571
Here's the one I'm working on now.
648
00:39:09,596 --> 00:39:11,373
Lovely guy by the name of Jerry Brudos.
649
00:39:11,432 --> 00:39:13,560
Murdered four women
not much older than Julie.
650
00:39:13,643 --> 00:39:15,436
Strung them up in his garage.
651
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,446
One of them came to his
door accidentally.
652
00:39:17,471 --> 00:39:18,964
One of them had car trouble.
653
00:39:19,029 --> 00:39:20,943
One of them he grabbed
from a parking garage
654
00:39:20,968 --> 00:39:23,389
she was on her way to
lunch with her mom.
655
00:39:35,373 --> 00:39:36,374
I'm sorry.
656
00:39:37,208 --> 00:39:38,209
I know.
657
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,089
I'm sorry.
658
00:41:15,723 --> 00:41:16,891
Your favorite...
659
00:41:18,977 --> 00:41:20,478
Quantico Blend.
660
00:41:23,481 --> 00:41:24,481
Thank you.
661
00:41:28,736 --> 00:41:30,863
- The mom.
- Hmm?
662
00:41:30,947 --> 00:41:32,699
The mom and the shoes.
663
00:41:33,366 --> 00:41:34,742
Something happened there.
664
00:41:36,577 --> 00:41:37,578
Clearly.
665
00:41:40,123 --> 00:41:41,207
What was it?
666
00:41:42,083 --> 00:41:43,209
Her reaction?
667
00:41:47,463 --> 00:41:48,631
The force of it.
668
00:41:49,757 --> 00:41:52,719
Burning the shoes
seared them into his mind as forbidden.
669
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:56,764
Which became part of the sexual fantasy.
670
00:41:58,975 --> 00:42:01,644
Then the teacher had
an entirely different reaction.
671
00:42:01,853 --> 00:42:03,643
So he's getting mixed messages
672
00:42:03,668 --> 00:42:06,173
from two adult women
about his impulses.
673
00:42:09,068 --> 00:42:13,281
Brudos said that he was attracted
to women's shoes before all of that.
674
00:42:14,282 --> 00:42:16,576
He took the stilettos from the dump
when he was five.
675
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,954
Not everyone agrees
with Freud's theories on sexuality,
676
00:42:20,038 --> 00:42:22,019
but he did hit upon how young we are
677
00:42:22,044 --> 00:42:24,024
when we start to form preferences.
678
00:42:24,083 --> 00:42:25,501
So when did that come in?
679
00:42:26,627 --> 00:42:28,796
How did it get tied to his sexuality?
680
00:42:29,255 --> 00:42:32,383
Was there a point at which someone
could have... intervened?
681
00:42:32,467 --> 00:42:34,385
Well, you're asking the right questions.
682
00:42:34,886 --> 00:42:36,179
I want the right answers.
683
00:42:36,262 --> 00:42:37,305
Don't we all.
684
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,642
- I'm glad you're here.
- Well...
685
00:42:56,991 --> 00:42:59,994
Hey, Bill. I've been thinking
about another angle with Brudos.
686
00:43:00,078 --> 00:43:02,663
Remember what Wendy said
about deflecting responsibility?
687
00:43:02,747 --> 00:43:03,748
Save it.
688
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:13,700
Fairfield Police Department.
689
00:43:13,724 --> 00:43:17,232
May I speak with Detective McGraw?
This is Bill Tench with the FBI.
690
00:43:17,257 --> 00:43:18,523
He's out right now.
Can I take a message?
691
00:43:18,548 --> 00:43:19,614
Yes.
692
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:22,433
Ask him to look at the photos
from the Ada Jeffries case.
693
00:43:22,517 --> 00:43:24,037
- Ada Jeffries?
- That's right.
694
00:43:24,102 --> 00:43:26,729
Tell him to look at the knots
that were used to tie her up.
695
00:43:26,813 --> 00:43:29,982
They're nautical
and Fairfield is landlocked.
696
00:43:30,525 --> 00:43:32,276
- Okay, I'll let him know.
- Thank you.
697
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,571
- You're back on Fairfield?
- We said we'd take a look.
698
00:43:35,596 --> 00:43:36,709
Are you sure there's still something...
699
00:43:36,734 --> 00:43:38,666
Holden, leave me alone.
700
00:43:40,409 --> 00:43:42,787
Somebody got up
on the wrong side of the bed.
701
00:43:45,498 --> 00:43:46,498
Bill.
702
00:43:48,209 --> 00:43:51,420
What I was saying yesterday
about remaining objective,
703
00:43:51,504 --> 00:43:53,214
you were right, it's bullshit.
704
00:43:53,798 --> 00:43:54,966
It's very hard.
705
00:43:55,591 --> 00:43:56,926
I've been around crazy.
706
00:43:57,009 --> 00:43:58,511
I was in the army.
707
00:43:58,594 --> 00:44:00,263
Road School was a cakewalk.
708
00:44:00,346 --> 00:44:02,019
I didn't mind talking about this stuff.
709
00:44:02,044 --> 00:44:04,926
But... what the fuck did I even know?
710
00:44:05,031 --> 00:44:07,004
These people are extremely damaged,
711
00:44:07,029 --> 00:44:09,044
and they know how to cause damage.
712
00:44:09,772 --> 00:44:11,524
I'm running on fumes.
713
00:44:11,607 --> 00:44:12,733
Can you take a break?
714
00:44:12,817 --> 00:44:14,694
- No.
- Talk to someone?
715
00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:17,738
- I'm talking to you.
- No, a professional.
716
00:44:17,822 --> 00:44:19,407
You are professional.
717
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:21,250
I'm your coworker.
I can't be your therapist.
718
00:44:21,325 --> 00:44:24,579
Therapist? It's not like that.
719
00:44:25,371 --> 00:44:27,915
Times have changed.
You don't have to be the good soldier.
720
00:44:30,877 --> 00:44:32,420
He's fucking immune.
721
00:44:33,921 --> 00:44:35,423
How do I tap into that?
722
00:45:05,286 --> 00:45:08,039
- Hello, there.
- Oh, my God. You look fantastic.
723
00:45:08,122 --> 00:45:09,165
So do you.
724
00:45:10,333 --> 00:45:13,294
I am so happy to be done with exams.
725
00:45:14,879 --> 00:45:16,672
Mm... I made dinner.
726
00:45:17,506 --> 00:45:21,636
Oh.
727
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,930
That was astounding.
728
00:45:24,013 --> 00:45:25,431
Well, don't sound so surprised.
729
00:45:25,514 --> 00:45:28,643
- You've been holding out on me.
- Isn't that what nice girls do?
730
00:45:28,726 --> 00:45:30,353
It worked. Marry me.
731
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,104
So I can cook for you? No.
732
00:45:34,482 --> 00:45:36,067
To your culinary skills.
733
00:45:38,986 --> 00:45:41,155
- To your fellatio skills.
- Just stop.
734
00:45:41,238 --> 00:45:42,406
To changing my life.
735
00:45:42,490 --> 00:45:43,908
To opening my mind.
736
00:45:45,576 --> 00:45:47,578
Inspiring me to go back to school.
737
00:45:47,662 --> 00:45:48,996
Wasn't this toast about me?
738
00:45:52,166 --> 00:45:54,085
I want you to know that I see you.
739
00:45:54,669 --> 00:45:56,796
How dedicated you are, how disciplined.
740
00:45:58,714 --> 00:45:59,714
Hey.
741
00:46:00,216 --> 00:46:03,469
You have the courage
to follow your curiosity.
742
00:46:03,552 --> 00:46:05,054
Okay, enough.
743
00:46:05,137 --> 00:46:07,282
And you put up with
my tendency to go on.
744
00:46:07,307 --> 00:46:08,617
That, I do.
745
00:46:12,561 --> 00:46:14,772
I am truly delighted to be in your life.
746
00:46:25,658 --> 00:46:26,658
Come on.
747
00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:32,038
Come on.
748
00:46:45,761 --> 00:46:47,096
Hold that thought.
749
00:48:29,281 --> 00:48:30,324
What's wrong?
750
00:48:31,909 --> 00:48:32,993
You don't like it?
751
00:48:36,622 --> 00:48:37,832
No, I love it.
752
00:49:26,839 --> 00:49:27,923
Are you okay?
753
00:49:33,053 --> 00:49:34,096
It's weird.
754
00:49:37,975 --> 00:49:39,018
This?
755
00:49:40,311 --> 00:49:42,188
It's just... not you.
756
00:49:46,692 --> 00:49:49,028
Yeah, Holden. That's the point.
757
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,187
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