All language subtitles for twist.of.faith

State your name for the record.

Dennis Gray.

- Where were you born?
- Toledo, Ohio.

- What year?
- '48.

And where did you attend school?

St. Charles grade school,

Central Catholic high school.

And what did you do after graduating
from high school?

I went into seminary - St. Gregory, Cincinnati.

Why did you decide to go into the seminary?

I decided that it would be a good life
if I was a priest.

See that.

We just got back from a fire. It was fun.

Little attic fire. Wasn't much, but I'm filthy.

This is the infamous fire pole.

Every little kid's dream.

- Tony!
- Yeah?

Fire safety. Time to go!

Anyhow, time to go.

Any of you know what monsters look like?

- They're slimy.
- Are they slimy?

- Are they really big?
- They have 10,000 eyes.

A lot of eyes? They got blinking stuff on them?

What I want to show you is that
what you might think a monster looks like,

is a lot what a fireman looks like
when he comes to your house at night.

OK, more or less like a monster?

No!

If you put the neck on.

- What about now?
- Now!

What about now? Look. Am I a monster?

No!

This is me coming into my neighborhood
every day for the last six months.

This is a nice park - one of the big things
that attracted us to the neighborhood.

Right in there, there's a walking trail,

public grade school's way back in there.

It's like living in the forest.

Hi, honey. Your hair looks great.

Thanks!

Mitch. Hey, Sam.

You guys go in the family room.

What makes it all worth it, right there.

Hey, Daddy, I can do somersaults.

- You can?
- Yeah. Watch.

All right.

Salt of the earth.

Mitchel? You gotta go to bed.

Remember that secret
you were gonna tell Mommy?

Here, Mitchel.

Go. Go fast. She won't even see you.

- Tell me about Tony Comes.
- Just a friend.

A good friend?

He was a friend.

- And how did you know Tony?
- He was from school.

- What school?
- Central.

- As a student?
- Correct. And as a fireman.

You knew him when he was a child, right?

Teenager.

And you ever take him out to the cottage?

He would come up different times.

He'd usually drive himself.

What kind of relationship did you
have with Tony?

More of a counselor.

He got us out of a lot of trouble.
He got me out of a lot of trouble.

You're late for class, you go to his office.

He did a lot of fun shit. He took you
to the racetrack, he took you to...

He took me out to eat.

In a family of seven kids, we didn't
eat out much. McDonald's was a big deal.

He'd pick on you.
His constant comment to me was,

"Comes, you're the only person I know
that would fuck up a wet dream."

At the time, it was, "Ha-ha, funny."

Now it's, OK, he mentions "wet dream."

And he said it all the time.

Was this part of some conditioning process?

It screws with you to the point where
you wonder, "How much was I manipulated,

"and at what point did I graduate

"to the 'Now it's appropriate
to fucking try something with this kid'?"

Did the church ever provide you, or any
of the Catholic schools at which you taught,

any guidelines as to what conduct was
considered to be inappropriate with a minor?

No.

Did they ever advise you as to when, if at all,

- child abuse should be reported?
- No.

Did they ever advise you when, if at all,

sexual contact with a minor
should be reported or to whom?

Nope.

The place I was first molested

is the rectory at St. Joseph.

Every day I gotta go to my psychologist's
office, I gotta drive by this place.

An invitation to Denny Gray's cottage was...

That was where it was at.

You could smoke, you could drink,

rake a pile of leaves 12 foot high,

dump a half a can of gas on it and light it,
and nobody gives a shit.

It was fucking cool.

And once I started getting abused,
for one reason or another,

I convinced myself
that that was still the better option.

Which I don't quite get.

Did you ever put your penis
in the mouths of any students

- when you were at central Catholic?
- Objection. Fifth amendment. Do not answer.

Did you ever put the penises
of any of your students in your mouth...

- Same objection.
- ...while at Central Catholic?

Do not answer.

Did you ever put your penis in the anus
of any of your students...

- Continuing objection.
- ...while you were at Central Catholic?

Continuing objection. Do not answer.

If you can imagine laying there
as still as can be, just...

I was asleep and then, as I came to,

I was like, "Oh..."

Realized what was happening

and just kept my eyes closed

and waited for it to be done.

And by done, I mean done.

It's like there's a siren going off in your head

"this is not happening, this is not happening,"

yet, the reality that it is happening

and you're trying to figure out why
and what the hell do I do?

And being so confounded that you do nothing,

that you just fucking freeze.

And then the shame, after,

or now, at 20, or you know, 33 years old,

that I didn't sit up and just fucking punch him
square in the face.

You know?

You're still feeling yucky?

- Your teeth hurt?
- Yes.

Yeah?

So what do I need to ask Grandma?

- To check my teeth.
- Check your teeth for what?

To make it... to see if it's better?

- To see if it'll get better?
- Yeah.

What do you think is wrong?

When I was lying in bed, it started hurting.

When you were sleeping
it started hurting?

Does the cold water make it hurt more?

Open your mouth. OK.

Is there blood on my hand?

Breathe.

Can you breathe? Breathe.

Take a sip.

One of the reasons
that I fell in love with Tony...

Sorry, I'm not exactly centered.

One of the reasons that I fell in love
with Tony was...

because he really did wear
his heart on his sleeve.

And unlike a lot of men, he was
very comfortable sharing his feelings

about me, about life...

Which was the complete opposite of me.

By the time we were married,
I had found out that Tony had been abused.

It was the first moment I had heard
Dennis Gray's name.

And I never knew.

Sorry. Trying not to cry.

I never knew how deeply...

that name would be ingrained
in our lives forever.

Tony and I had bought a new house

and I remember...

we'd been here a couple of days

and I was out shopping
for things for the house.

My cell phone rang and it was Tony,
and he said,

"You're not going to believe
who lives five houses down from us."

And I said, "Who?"

He said, "Dennis Gray."

It was a horrible summer.

Daddy! Dad!

I can jump on the jungle gym!

I gotta watch out!

Daddy!

Because of the situation,

we had to tell our daughter
what had happened to Tony.

What's going on?

You think something's up?

You know how Mom and Dad tell you...

to cross your legs when you sit down

and don't let other people see your underwear,

your privates are your privates
and if somebody touches you there,

tell a big person.

Well...

a long time ago,

when Daddy was a little bit older
than you are,

somebody did that to Daddy.

To me.

And today...

the person who hurt Daddy a long time ago,

Daddy saw that person.

And he lives right on this street.

And right now, I don't know what
that's gonna mean...

but what I want to tell you

is that Daddy's gonna be OK.

But I need to tell you so you understand,

cos you're big enough to understand now,

that I don't want you...

to hate this person,

because I hate him enough for me,

and hating somebody's not a good thing.

I also don't want you
talking to this person ever.

If you fall down and scrape your knee
on your bike

and this person comes up to help you,

you tell him to get away.

Do you understand what Daddy told you?

- You understand what I told you?
- I want to make sure you understand.

This man touched me on my penis...

A long time ago.

A long time ago, when he was little.

- A long, long time ago.
- But it still hurts.

But it still hurts.
It doesn't hurt like l-pinch-you hurt.

It hurts in here.

We didn't know this man lived on this street.

We didn't know he lived down the street
when we moved here.

I didn't know until today.

If I did, we wouldn't live here.

How would you decide which students to invite

- to Crystal Lake?
- There was no pattern.

Did you have any specific parameters?

- No.
- Any guidelines you would follow?

No.

Did you have any rules for the students

that were visiting with you at Crystal Lake?

Just act like gentlemen.

Did you have any rules that prohibited them
from drinking?

Yes, I told them, "You cannot drink."

- Pardon?
- I always told them,

"If I go to bed, you watch games or TV,
or something,

"but don't touch the beer or booze."

Was there beer or booze in the cottage?

I always had a bottle of Scotch or some beer.

It's the first time I've been back in...

Since the last time I was up here
in high school.

It's been a hell of a long time.

The same sheets and everything. Jesus.

What happened at the cottage stayed
at the cottage. That was the general rule.

I'd like to burn this fucking place down
if I could.

We'd come up here
and drink, eat, shoot pool.

The part where it gets weird

is Sunday morning, wake up
and some guy's sucking your dick.

A fucking half hour later, you take a shower,

and a half hour after that,
everybody who's here,

sometimes families included,
are sitting around the living room

and Denny's sitting there, saying Mass

cos it was Sunday.

So, here this guy just got done violating you

and now he's going,
"Body of Christ. Body of Christ."

It was fucked up beyond
the point that you would...

It was too screwed up to question.

His bedroom was 20 feet
right inside that door.

I was just laying there...

wishing that it'd stop and wishing
it wasn't happening, knowing that it was.

I was a fucking little kid...

a kid, and I needed some help.

I'm done looking at this fucking...

You know, no pill, no psychiatrist is ever
gonna completely take it away.

You see, hear, or do something,

and all of a sudden, you're thinking about
the worst thing that ever happened in your life.

And even at my most intimate times
with my wife,

not a stitch of clothes on,

somehow or another,
Denny Gray either sprints

or walks slowly through my head.

And so yeah, it's affected it in that respect

in that I don't think I've ever had sex
with somebody

that somehow or another, the issue didn't...

flash or play on slow play.

Once I knew what happened,

I noticed myself...

trying very hard to make sure that...

I was doing things so he knew this is me,

this is Wendy, your wife.

I have nails, so I would, you know,
scrape his stomach or...

It's something where it would...

Maybe he wasn't even thinking about it.

Maybe it was for my own benefit,

just to get my mind someplace else.

Just so he was not...

Neither of us was slipping there.

But while I was doing that, I had all this stuff
going through my mind, which sucked.

Unfortunately, it now -

and I think I said that a few times
when we were talking on my tape -

this wasn't just eating away at Tony's mind,
it was eating away at my mind.

The first time I went
to potty train my boy...

the fact that it came into my head
for a second -

"What do I do if this kid
gets an erection?"

Cos I'm trying to teach him how to aim

which is natural for a dad to do.

That I was uncomfortable,

that I was uncomfortable
because of what happened to me,

and it invaded or stuck its fucking hand
in one more part of my life,

a part of my life that it shouldn't have had to.

So when Tony got out of the Navy,

he'd been home for probably six months,

and he told me that
he'd been abused by Dennis Gray.

He didn't ask that I do anything.

He asked me to tell his father, which I did.

How did his father react to the news?

It was a long time ago.

"Oh no.

"What does Tony want to do?

"Does Tony want me to talk to him?

"What should we do?"

I guess, on his part and my part,

a lot of soul searching

as to what we would do as parents.

I remember John said to me...

"What does Tony want to do?"

And I said, "He don't want to do anything,
I don't believe."

He said, "Does he want me to talk to him?"

And I said, "I think you should
let him come to you."

So it just sort of got locked away,
like a skeleton in the closet.

His siblings were aware of it. I told them.

Nothing was ever done about it
and when the whole thing started in Boston...

Tony lost it.

Where news comes first.
NBC 24 News at 6:00 starts now.

The scandal has ripped
through the Catholic church

in Boston, St. Louis, and now Toledo,

with allegations that priests

sexually abused young parishioners.

And today, Toledo's bishop issued
a letter to parishioners.

"If you were abused
by a member of the clergy

"or another church employee
and have never reported it,

"you should come forward."

I remember when Tony came to me
the first time and said,

"I think that I need to...

"talk to the Bishop.

"I think that I need to tell somebody what
happened to me.

"Somebody in the church."

When he told me that, I was scared to death.

I was scared because...

Not only would he have to go through this,

but I would have to go through this with him.

Six men claim Dennis Gray,
a former Toledo priest,

molested them during the 1980s.

All of the men were students at this
high school, where Gray taught religion.

Gray left the priesthood in 1987

and has worked in the Toledo
public school system for 12 years

and is currently a dean
at Rogers high school.

But Gray was put on
administrative leave on Monday,

and officials say they didn't know
about the accusations

despite Toledo's Catholic diocese records
dating back to 1995

that state Gray admitted to child abuse.

- Did you know Matt Simon?
- Yes, I did.

And how did you become
acquainted with Matthew?

In my class.

Basically, he'd step in my office.

Your office at Central Catholic?

- Yes?
- Yes.

I meet Dennis Gray first day of school.
I'm in his religion class.

I don't know if somebody told him my situation,
but he said,

"I understand you have some issues at home.
I'll take care of you. Don't worry."

He came to our school.
He was recruiting altar boys.

I kind of hung back at the time,

and he did whatever he could
to make you feel

wanted, welcomed...

special.

He came over to our house,

a black shirt with his collar -

had a couple of drinks with my mom,
Dad was talking to him,

and I was asked if I would like
to go with him,

like a weekend vacation, to go fishing,
do some watersports,

do some swimming,
meet some other kids my age,

and try to give me a set of friends
that were heading in the right direction

instead of guys who were getting in trouble.

He invited me to come up to the lake house.

His family was up there.

Friends of his were up there.

It was a very family atmosphere,
what I'd been used to.

I went with a friend
and we all went up together,

and I thought it was the greatest thing
in the world.

We went sledding...

There was a pool table,
there was a huge deck,

a huge fireplace,

all the things that were just kind of fun,

and everybody was gathered around.

It was just a good camaraderie.

All of a sudden,
it became more of a party atmosphere,

you could look forward to going up there
and having fun,

We can play pool, we can drink some beers.

We can act like adults,
what every teenager wants to be.

The real alarms went off the next trip we took
to the cottage.

I got really drunk.

Apparently, I would try to go out
into the snow naked.

When I was up there the second time,

he had a day bed and a double bed
in his bedroom,

he said, "You can sleep on
the day bed in here."

I was like, "My gosh, I'm sleeping in his room."

I thought, "Wow, that's pretty nice."

A long story short,
I woke up the next morning,

and I'm laying in bed
naked with Dennis...

You don't remember
what happened the night before.

That was probably the first abuse
that took place.

You just wake up
and he's fondling you and...

you're not sure, you know,

what's exactly happening,

because also a lot of times, you've been
drinking before you've gone to bed.

He made sure. And he'd fix you drinks.

You'd get these rum and cokes,
anything that was sweet.

By then, I didn't know which way was right,
which way was wrong.

Here's a man who's supposed to be
helping me, protecting me.

How can he be doing this to me?

He'd grab your arms
and you'd be thrown down,

and you were gonna get it
whether you wanted it...

You had no choice in the matter, basically.

It wasn't, "Matthew, what would you like?"

Or, "How does this feel?"

Or, "Are you OK?"

You know, it was a rape.

We had oral sex.

Yeah, this is very difficult.

We tried anal sex one time.

A lot of the times,
he would just lay on top of me

and hump until he orgasmed or came
or whatever.

At the time - I'm going to tell you this -

I had thoughts about guys.

I mean, I had had thoughts about guys.

I thought, "My God, maybe this is it,

"maybe this is what this really is.

"Maybe this is being gay."

I even had conversations with him about that,
and we went to meet with a priest

so I could talk to somebody
about my feelings.

They told me it was completely normal,
not to worry.

This was the kind of things
he would do for you

and you'd just go, "God,
he really does care about me."

I didn't really know that there were others

until after Dennis moved to Toledo.

I mean, then I knew for sure
that I wasn't just sharing time with him

where we would go out or whatever.

I was sharing and I felt betrayed,

like, "Well, how many people
does he love besides me?"

That love that he talked about. How many...?

In an adolescent mind trying to rank them -
"Am I still the top?"

It's very hard.

There's a lot of guilt, a lot of shame,

and a whole lot of embarrassment.

I represent survivors of abuse across
the country and I've been trying these cases...

in the court of public opinion
and in the courtroom for 20 years.

And I am sad to say that the bishop here

and the officials of this diocese...

have operated above the law.

- How are you doing, my man?
- Good to see you.

Tony, we've talked a little bit about
what we want to achieve here.

The way it happened in Chicago,
and in part in Cleveland,

is that I said,

"You show us that you're willing to go
to the table on all these non-economic things -

"prevention, healing, outreach,
the whole thing."

That's what we'll do with this diocese...

So this isn't about the money.
It's about everything else first.

They'll say sorry to me,
my mother and everybody else

that I ask them to say sorry to -
my family, my parish.

I'm willing to compromise
on a lot of things.

I'm not willing to compromise
on any more lies or secrets.

There's going to be no more loopholes,

whether it be amendment rights, statutes.

They're gonna respond like every rational,
thinking moral adult. It's important.

- Let's go get them.
- It's important to us too.

It's important they admit they're wrong.

This is the first one.

The first of six new lawsuits

filed against the diocese.

Six allegations of sexual abuse
by a former Toledo priest.

He is a predator. He is a pedophile.

He is a criminal.

Six more allegations that the diocese
looked the other way.

The diocese of Toledo,
like the dioceses across this country

have really operated in secrecy.

And there's been little and no disclosure,

and they have become
the big part of the problem.

The point I'm at now,
they've lied so many times

and no matter how I try and play along,
I end up feeling like I'm getting fucked again.

And now, what's going to make it right is...

shit's going to come to a head

and it's gonna get published in the Blade

and at least I'm gonna know...

that I did everything in my power

and didn't give up.

I think the church here was
trying to put on a front -

"We'll be transparent, help in any way we can."

It was like pulling teeth. It really was.

We asked them, and we put in
formal requests for records.

"Can we look at the archives of the diocese?

"Can we look at your personnel files
on these priests?"

- And we got nowhere.
- They didn't volunteer anything.

They have a very large,
very powerful law firm representing them,

and these lawyers
have been quietly settling cases for years.

This is a large diocese. It's 19 counties.

It's 8,200 square miles.

And these guys
have been criss-crossing northwest Ohio,

quietly settling cases,
silencing victims for years.

- What's on your mind?
- A lot.

I'm very anxious.

- Cos of the article coming out?
- Yeah.

Tony, what's that medal you got there?

- It's a St. Florian medal.
- Is that the patron saint...

Patron saint of firemen.

I used to wear a cross,
but I kind of took it off lately.

Can you go back a little bit

to how the bishop wasn't honest with you?

I got in contact with the diocese

because I wanted an apology
from the bishop to my mother

and to my wife.

I asked that he apologize to my wife

for the various disruptions in our marriage

due to my...

whether it be depression or anger,

or however it came out.

He apologized to all three of us.

He said it with more sincerity

than anyone I had ever heard.

Then my mother asked him...

I asked the bishop. I said,

"Bishop Hoffman, are you aware

"of any other allegations...

"against Dennis Gray
regarding young people?"

And his response to me was...

- "Not to my knowledge."
- We asked him three times.

He said it with more sincerity
than anyone I had ever heard.

I believed that, based on who he was,

his position and what he represented
to the church,

that he was telling me the truth.

Anthony Comes was unable

to fight back tears while telling his story.

Comes claims he was molested
by his former priest

and later lied to by the highest leader
in the Toledo Catholic diocese.

He had led me to believe
I was the only one. He lied to me.

Comes' feelings resurfaced last Memorial Day

when he was driving down this street
of the neighborhood where he'd just moved.

He noticed the priest he once knew
lived five doors down from him.

The diocese intervened and Gray is now
in the process of moving.

But Comes says he's disturbed
Bishop Hoffman told him he knew

of no other allegations against Gray.

Then four months later, published an article
confessing there was another one.

That's when the firefighter
decided to fight back,

suing the diocese and talking publicly.

- Were you an altar boy?
- I was. Were you an altar boy?

Yeah! Shut up!

Yeah, me, Canning, Williams,
Dattinger, you.

I just don't understand how he got away with it
when there were other people there.

- Did it happen when we were there?
- Absolutely.

- He'd come out and say...
- I honest to God did not know.

Did you ever go skinnydipping there?

- At night?
- At the cottage?

I don't think so.

Do you recall anybody going skinnydipping?

I do recall that.

I remember wanting to go skinnydipping
with Molly Gray there.

Why would you want to go skinnydipping
with a bunch of guys?

It was innocuous.
Nothing happened other than fish biting you.

- Whatever.
- It's middle of the night.

If you're fucked up, I guess.

Why would you shower after a game
with a bunch of guys? Same deal.

A bunch of guys up in a cabin drinking,
getting fucked up. Who cares?

If none of us are gay,
who cares if I look at you naked?

Except you don't know if anyone's gay.

Bullshit. It's a very experimental time.

What?

Let me interrupt for a minute.

Do you see me...

or my life now

in my decision to go public...

as a positive thing

or a negative thing?

And do you understand
that my position is not...

...Catholics, it's the leadership.

- Why have you forsaken the Catholic church?
- I have not forsaken it.

But based upon my own experience...

seeing the current behavior of the church...

I am given a choice to either trust the church

in the same environment
while they're still telling lies

- with the care of my daughter...
- But I...

Let me finish. And risk, as minimal as it is,

- something happening to her...
- You'd never forgive yourself.

...or take her out, put her in public school,

deal with all the crap you have to deal with.

I'm worried that...

you're going to make other people pay

for a bitterness that maybe
you're picking up from it.

Because I do truly believe in the priesthood

and the Catholic church
as a good organization.

We're looking at a thousand years
of good, OK,

- that the Catholic church has done.
- Right.

And what we're dealing with now,
is ten years of a cover-up.

The overwhelming urge to drive down to where
the Bishop's laying to rest

and piss on his grave
is almost completely overwhelming,

But in the light of things,
I think I'll hold off on that.

But I'll do it.

Denny, when you're dead,
I'll piss on your grave too.

When I got engaged to Tony,

I made the choice...

to convert to Catholicism.

I did it because...

I believe in the Catholic religion

I believe in our Lord Jesus Christ
very strongly.

Our strongest link
to the Catholic church...

when I met Tony was John Shiffler,

who was a priest

in the Catholic church in Toledo.

Tony and I felt a very strong bond with him.

He helped us through a lot of difficult times.

He counseled us, he married us,

he baptized me, he baptized our daughter.

Unfortunately, over this past year,

we found out that he's also
one that has abused children.

State your name for the record, please.

- John Charles Shiffler.
- And Mr. Shiffler,

when did you first meet Dennis Gray?

In 1986, when I first came there.

How did you come to know him at that time?

He was also one of the teachers
in the religion department.

Did you share an office with him?

Our offices were adjacent to each other.

How many times did you have
sexual encounters with Matt Simon?

One.

What occurred between you and Matt Simon
in June 1987?

I am instructing the witness not to answer.

You refuse to answer?

At the recommendation of my counsel, yes.

The lies, the deceit, the betrayal

wasn't just from Dennis Gray anymore.

It was from the Catholic church,

the Catholic diocese of Toledo,

the bishop...

everyone that knew what was going on.

They knew that...

abuse had occurred by Dennis Gray,

by others,

but they chose to ignore it.

They knew before Tony was abused

that there had been allegations
against Dennis Gray,

but they chose to ignore it.

Please welcome Bishop Robert Donnelly.

The most visible action on behalf of
social justice in the Toledo diocese

is the Catholic Charities organization.

Catholic Charities seeks the common good
and wellbeing of all,

but especially the poor and the vulnerable.

My name is John Schoonmaker.

And with all respect, Bishop Donnelly, I ask,

where is the social justice

for the victims of sexual abuse by priests?

John, I want to...

respond briefly to that question, I guess.

I do want to say that we are

well along the journey

of responding dramatically, transparently

and justly to allegations, any and all.

If you want to continue, I'll do so afterwards,
but I'd like to answer another question.

- Bishop Donnelly?
- Yes?

- My name is Claudia.
- Sure, Claudia.

I'm not as eloquent as some.

In fact as I was listening to you talk,

I'd die a thousand deaths than stand up.

But I want you to know that while -

and please don't take my tears as weak -

but while you may be in compliance on paper,

there are people in this
community that are hurting.

And this is not an area

that social justice has prevailed.

And we need to be not thrown off
the church property

when we come to give you a letter.

We need to be engaging in a dialogue,
looking for solutions.

Claudia, I would indeed...

welcome some way to dialogue,

but I'm not sure that this is the place or time
for us to say other than

we are in compliance,
that is to say, we do the best we can,

we have lay men and women
in different groups

that have been appointed
to look at our faults,

to tell us that we are doing what we've been
asked to do.

We have done it well.

It doesn't mean we're perfect at it,
but we're working on it.

Right off the top of my head,

I don't think bishops are accountable
enough to people.

They're appointed as a bishop,

the priest council is their own council.

It's not like a legislative body or anything.

They're not evaluated by the parishioners.

Well, part of it goes back

to other situations of this diocese

where, I believe, the administration of
this diocese was protecting and covering for

and enabling people
who I call "faith molesters."

Did you have any priest who counseled you

or met with you, suggested that that would be
a good vocation for you?

- Yeah.
- Who were they?

A priest at Central, through the years.

Bob Donnelly, the Auxiliary Bishop today.

I know that Dennis Gray served with
Robert Donnelly, under Robert Donnelly.

Because I did my deacon internship with...
He was then Father Robert Donnelly.

It was 1979.
Dennis Gray was just being moved.

And I know that they were close.

Did you talk to Donnelly about
wanting to move to Toledo?

- Bishop Donnelly?
- Yeah.

- Sure.
- And what did you say to him?

Objection. Privileged communication.

He wasn't the bishop at the time, was he?

He was a bishop.

- What kind of bishop?
- Auxiliary bishop.

- Where did he stand in the...
- Bishop.

- ...chain of command?
- Number two.

- OK. Did he have authority over you?
- Sure.

I think Bishop Hoffman, Bishop Donnelly,

knew about these accusations on him,

and probably to protect his career,

remained silent and allowed this man
to be around children.

I think any of these bishops like this,

who place - I think across the country -
who place these molesters,

especially these serial molesters,
around kids should resign.

They have no business being bishops

if they play with lives like that.

OK, so I'm wondering

if between the two of you, if that's come up.

We were going out with his family
for a birthday party.

- We hadn't been out together since...
- Since we talked.

...that issue. And then Tony started talking

about the whole church situation,

and I think what made it worse was that
your brother was going to a church function.

So that put Tony in a whole different universe.

I was freaking out. So I said...

to her, across the table,
"Hey, can you come on over

"and sit on this side for a minute
until things get going

"and rub my back for a second?"

Now, I just sat down, I've had a long week.

All I want to do is have a drink
and talk to adults.

I didn't get shitty, I don't think.

- Not at that point.
- I think I just said, you know...

If he happens to be feeling a certain way
or feeling tight,

everything that possibly
going on with me is just...

Too bad! Suck it up!

- You turn invisible.
- "I'm tight, so the world ends."

- Wait a second.
- I really wish that Tony could take

all the stuff that's turning into anger

and do something different with that.

Help people in the Catholic church,

- or, you know, parents, or whatever group...
- Change canon law, leave the church?

If he could do something different with that
rather than get angry and pissed off.

I'm usually pretty good.
I may not be doing it the way you would,

but this is the way that I think
it's going to work for me

in order to get through it.

I am what I am.

Guess where I am?

That's the arch in St. Louis.

Hey, Barbara. Tony Comes.

Apparently, Claudia already has
a name tag for me?

She has everything for you.

Welcome to the first
national assembly of S.N.A.P.,

the Survivors Network
of those Abused by Priests.

Now, we are going to hear from
our national executive director,

David Clohessy.

Welcome. Welcome to my town.

We're here this weekend
for one simple reason,

and that is to gain
the strength and the skills

to go out and keep doing

what we've been doing, many of us,
for years and years,

which is, to save lives.

I'm going to ask just a couple of people
to break the ice

and if you're comfortable sharing some of what
you shared this afternoon,

please head up to one of the microphones.

Good evening. I'm from Tucson, Arizona.

I was raped by a priest
when I was 11 years old.

Up until that time,
I had one hundred per cent clarity

that God's plan for me was to be a priest.

That plan changed,

because the closest thing I had to God

was that priest that held me down
by the back of the neck

and stuck his penis in my butt.

This is me as a teenager,

at the age when I was abused

by the bishop's director of youth ministry

for the diocese of Toledo.

I remember vividly on this youth trip,

he stopped at a hotel and checked in
with a fake name

and turned to me and said, "I can't believe
I would almost give my real name."

And being naive, like this person in the picture,
I thought, "Why wouldn't you?

"If something happened,
how would they know where we're at?"

My first sexual assaults by a priest

started when I was
somewhere between five and six.

Fast forward to 21, 22...

and like many of us,

I was confided in a priest

who then immediately began an affair with me.

My father himself was a pedophile,

so he started around the age of two

to approximately the age of six,

and then I met Father Geoghegan
who went from six to roughly ten.

So it was kind of natural for me.

I was just nine years old when Father Jim

worked very slowly and methodically

to gain my trust and confidence and silence.

Through the course of it, French kissing,

forced masturbation, oral rape

became the traumas I experienced,
but experienced alone.

My name is Tony Comes.
I'm from Toledo, Ohio.

I'm a 34-year-old father of two.

I'm a Toledo firefighter.

I was abused repeatedly.

I allowed myself to continue to be abused.

I regret the most

that I've always been aware.

And I always said, "If I ever find out

"that someone else was after me,

"it'll kill me."
I thought I was the only one.

You've taken a very brave step,

and we applaud you especially
for having the courage to come out

and be among people who can support you.

It's a very tough first step, and we welcome
you and applaud you for doing that.

And we applaud you for being here.

Can you believe it? How are you?
It's so good to see you.

- Shorter than I remember.
- Just a little bit smaller.

I've been shitting my pants about meeting you.

- It's a gateway to your past.
- So you have not seen each other either?

I've had his number for months,
and every day...

"You should call him."

- I don't know...
- What to say? How to start?

Yeah, it's not a conversation you really want

cos then you have to deal with it
when you talk to that person.

So it's not a conversation you want
to exactly have, but it's a good thing.

I feel very responsible.

- Why?
- Because...

As I felt all along for 20 years,

my biggest fear was,
if I would have spoken up,

somebody else wouldn't have gone through
or feel what I feel.

And I asked myself a thousand times, "Why?"

Do you think that it has a potential

to cause serious long-range harm to a child

when someone in a position of authority
such as a priest

puts their penis in the mouth of that child?

- Yes.
- It has the potential cause serious harm.

- No.
- It doesn't?

- No.
- It doesn't have the potential to cause...

- He's answered the question.
- ...serious harm to the child?

Lack of foundation.
What are you talking about?

Serious, permanent harm to that child.

No, I think... No.

On what grounds do you say it does not?

I don't want to go with medical,
I just say every person's different.

So some children it wouldn't bother,
others it would?

I would think so.

When you go out there
and your parents told you,

"Listen to him and do what he tells you,"
so when he's saying,

"You sleep in this room, you in this room,
you in this room,

- "you and you are in this room with me..."
- No one ever asked,

"Do you sleep in the same bed with him?"

They assumed you were at the cottage.

You know, there were times that I would run.
I would try to hide.

I would try to find people to be around
so I could avoid

going to Father Auth's garage,

or the doctor's house, or his garage...

Wherever he would tell me to go,
I would just try to hide.

But I knew that he would find me.
He was very clever.

In the same vein, when I was getting abused...

when I say, I laid there,

stiff as a board, pardon the pun,

just in agony,

because I could not mentally control

- a natural, physical, biological reaction.
- Physical reaction.

And I was going, "Jesus Christ!

"I have actually achieved an orgasm,
as unfun as it was.

"And it was with a man. I must be queer!

"Holy shit! What am I gonna do?"

I had to get as many girls as I could
possibly find

- in order to prove it wrong.
- To prove that wrong.

It ruined, for me...

Well, I mean, for any lack of better term...

any sex I had with any men
for several years after that, because...

the only way I could have a relationship
with someone was to have sex with them.

That was what I thought would
make them like me,

- which I know sounds...
- No.

...really warped. I don't have to tell you that.

But yeah.

See, with me, the first girl that I was with

that wanted to become intimate with me,
I just said,

"Why the hell do you want
to have sex with me?"

She's like, "It's a nice way
to share of ourselves."

I looked at her and said, "Who says I wanted
to share anything with you?

And it took a while for me to realize

that there were girls who went through
similar abuse that I did,

and to them, that's the only way

of offering what they think is special
about them to you.

So tell me something.
If they were to come to us right now

and say, "Here is such and such
of a settlement,

"and that's it - no ties to it..."

- Fuck off.
- You'd really say fuck off?

Somebody's admitting they were wrong,
the highest possible person.

But a settlement,
you don't think that's admitting they're wrong?

No, if I take a settlement out of the courts,

they, one, publicly aren't admitting anything

and I want Dennis to admit that he did this,

I want the church to admit
that they covered it up,

I want the church to admit to all the other
cover-ups they have.

And I'll walk away without a dime.

- You pay my legal fees and I'm done.
- I want assurances

there's measures in place so this shit
doesn't happen anymore.

I think I would definitely entertain
the settlement, but I...

But you can't tell me that
while you were given a settlement...

Like you, Tony and Matt were given
a group settlement of $20 million.

- "So you should be happy now."
- "And you should be happy now."

It's over. What do you think?

If you fucking think it's over,

come over to my house
and every night I wake up,

sweating my ass off
because I had a nightmare

because that fucker's face is in my head,

I'll tap you on the forehead and say,
"It's on, it's on!

"Wake up. You get to go with me for
another two hours while I go walking this off."

There's a priest doing confession.

He's sitting in the confessional
and he's got to take a shit.

He sees David the janitor walk by
and he says, "Dave, get in here.

"I need you to do me a favor.

"I got to take a shit. Do the confessions.

"All the sins are here, the punishments,
just follow the chart.

"Everything's there." A lady comes in,

confesses to adultery, performing oral sex
on somebody other than her husband.

Dave can't find oral sex
on the board anywhere.

He sees one of the altar boys walking by,
he goes, "Tommy."

"Dave, what are you doing in there?"

He says, "I don't have time for idle chatter.

"What does Father usually give
for inappropriate oral sex?"

He goes, "I don't know.
Ice cream and a movie?"

Oh, Tony.

- OK, you've watched big-time wrestling?
- Yes.

And, being a non-athlete,
you'll still be able to get it.

- What's that move called?
- ...move called? It's a half nelson.

What's this move called? It's a full nelson.

What's this move called?

- Father Nelson.
- Father Nelson.

Have you heard that one, Matt?

Thank you for everything.

Buddy, I can't tell you.

- Thank you.
- Thank you.

I would have never recognized you. Never.

Matt is easily recognizable.

You know what? I'm probably a lot better

- than I thought I would have been.
- Me too.

So, the diocese has filed
the motion to dismiss.

They're saying, even if you have a good case,

you brought it way too late,

because the statute of limitations

restricts your right to file

unless you do it within
a certain number of years.

So at this stage, they're going
to take advantage of every single delay.

And that can turn a two-year lawsuit
into an eight-year lawsuit.

They're sinning. I can fit it in I don't know
how many different commandments.

I think if they were truly concerned
about helping the victims,

they would say, "Let's focus
on what really happened

"and look at the merits
and what we should be doing,"

but they're not inclined to do that.

Now, the next thing
is something called canon law,

which is the book of rules
that the Catholic church lives by.

Under canon law, priests are authorized to lie

if it is in the interest of the church,

to protect the church from scandals.

It's called "mental reservation."

I don't know if you've heard of this term.

"Strict mental reservation" means that you can

not answer a question,
you can lie in your answer

in order to protect the interests of the church.

And I think that's probably something
that most people don't realize.

There's a gajillion things
going through my head.

My daughter's having
her fucking first communion

in 15 days.

If it wasn't going to be hard to say,
"Welcome aboard!" before...

I don't even want to go. I don't want her to go.

- But I'm...
- It's just...

I'm putting her into a group

that, knowing what I just know now,

I don't want her to do it.

It's going to be a far longer process.

Like eight years.

I would expect that from them.

This is difficult for me.
The fact that I was an adult

and made a conscious decision
to convert to this religion.

Would you make the same decision now?

I don't know.

Quite honestly, Tony, I...

I'm also at a point where I've thought about
going over to Perrysburg

and checking out Cedar Creek,

- a non-denominational church.
- It's a non-denominational...

It's a place to continue
a relationship with God.

You know, I think the communion piece
would be difficult,

because that is a deep connection for me.

But...

I'm torn. I'm torn just like you are.

And I think for me, it's easier,

because I didn't grow up with this religion.

You were brought up... I mean, you know...

You go to church, you don't have to look
at a book to recite anything.

You know exactly, by memory, because you...
Just like Samantha.

She knows...

The prayers to say, when to say them.

It's second nature for her,

and after communion,
it's gonna be even stronger.

This side, knucklehead.

- Hi.
- How are you?

OK.

Can you fit?

Move that so you can sit down.

Buckle up.

- What did you learn at school today?
- Jesus day.

Jesus day? What was Jesus day?

- I forget.
- You forget what Jesus day was about?

- Jesus.
- OK.

What did you guys try last week?

- The host.
- What's the host supposed to be?

Jesus's body.

I actually sat Sam down.

Her book is very similar.

It's slightly more updated,
but nearly identical.

And I could remember. I was an altar boy,

And I enjoyed church until I was abused.

And now, what I'm mad about

is that they're doing
everything exactly wrong.

And it's the "forgive"part.

When the church adds "forget," that's stupid

because it's impossible.

This particular dream,
we're at first communion,

and my wife and I are standing
hands on our daughter's shoulder.

I look down and I see them place
the communion in my daughter's hand,

and I look up

and it's Denny Gray.

I woke up

and I'll bet you I couldn't breathe

for a full minute.

I was probably crying for ten

before she woke up.

And by crying, I mean, shaking,

just sobbing.

I have a sense of fear now.

Tony, you can be there.

- I refuse to go.
- She will understand.

I'm so sick to my stomach, I can't sleep.

I need to figure out how I'm going to do this
before I walk in that church.

Samantha Comes.

Chris Wilson.

Well, other than picking her up from school,

that'll probably be the last
time I'm in that church.

You know...

It's strange being 34...

and questioning everything you ever thought

as far as what I think people
look to religion for

is when everything else goes to shit.

That's what you do. You turn to God,

or you turn to God in a fashion
in which you were taught.

And now, I got nowhere to turn,

so it's a bitch.

You know darn well how I feel about you,

but I hope you get to a point between now
and when this is all over,

where you do deal with it

as you're through with the anger

and you're more down to the nitty-gritty -

"This is right, this is wrong.

"Let's fess up, guys" - and not be angry.

When there is full disclosure and justice

- in my perception of it as done...
- Well, Tony, look't.

I can deal with what I believe

was being told a lie by the bishop.

I can deal with that.

The church is like, to me,
like any large company.

Sometimes the right hand doesn't even know
what the left hand's doing.

- They know. They fucking know.
- No.

They damn well know
that this is tearing up marriages,

that this is tearing up individuals, this is...

They know, and they are
the pillars of society,

and the sons of bitches
don't do anything to stop it.

Watch your language.

You know what?
You run around with those guys,

it's guilt by association.

I'm sorry, mom, but you're talking out
of two sides.

You're wanting...

You so vehemently want to hang on
to what you need to -

and I don't besmirch you that -

but for God's sake, what is it going to take?

Are you asking me to leave
the Catholic church? I'm not going to do it.

I'm asking you to stand up.
I'm asking you to quit writing checks.

What in hell's bells
do you think I've been doing?

Or trying to do?

I'm not hiding.

I'm not hiding.

But I am...

Do you put money in a basket every week?

- Yeah. I think that's my obligation.
- The money you're giving...

- Wait a minute.
- ...pays the attorneys that are fighting me.

Put any kind of spin on it you want.

Remember when I begged you and Dad
to let me out of Central?

- Yeah.
- Do you know why?

- Why?
- Because it was happening.

- OK. Why... you know...
- Why didn't I tell you?

You couldn't.

I was getting beat up for being called "faggot,"
or "little," or whatever.

Am I gonna fucking put a billboard out
that says,

"Yes, I'm getting a fucking hand job,
getting my dick sucked by a priest?"

No, but you and dad
wouldn't let me fucking go

because "Catholic religion
and Catholic education is better."

We didn't know what was going on, Tony.

Well, when you did, you didn't do nothing.

All right, but at the time...

I'm thirty-fucking-four years old

and I'm crying like a fucking scared
12-year-old.

I know, and we made the best decision

with the information
that we had at the time.

I'm sorry.

I needed to get my clothes and stuff.

- Does Sam have clean clothes for tomorrow?
- Yes.

Right at the moment,
things aren't very good with Tony and I.

He's definitely not one to...

he rarely wants to go out anymore.

And if he does,
it's with a limited group of people

that he's comfortable with.

That is like a 360 from when I met Tony.

I mean, Tony was like...

You'd go out in a group of 100 people,

and he'd be the one that's cracking jokes,

telling his life story.

That definitely has changed.

He's not comfortable
in his own body.

Whether he's always felt that way or not,
I don't know.

But outwardly it didn't appear that way.

I mean, he really is...

Different.

I'm exhausted. I've lost 27 pounds.

I'm about 152 pounds right now.

Two weeks ago, I was 150,

So I've been eating my ass off.

But I don't sleep.

I have no appetite.

Not because I'm not hungry.

But because I'm so fucking wound up
and angry all the time,

nothing tastes good, nothing...

It's easier to sit and smoke than it is to get up
and make a fucking sandwich.

But if she came home and said,
"I just can't get by. We're done,"

I wouldn't blame her.

It'd kill me.

I believe I'd do just about anything
to hang on to my children and my wife.

I did not pressure Tony
to come back to church.

We rarely talked about it.

But as things have...

taken some turns
over the last few months...

We have talked about it bringing us
closer together as a family,

And that it was important for all of us to...

go to church together, get communion,

hear the same things and experience
the same things

- religiously.
- To participate as a family.

It almost feels

like we're taking back some kind of control

and not leaving what we believe
to be the right religious choice for us,

- for our family.
- You know...

I'm not going to be ashamed
of an awful lot of things anymore.

Being Catholic is one of them.

I've just had to suck it up in a lot of ways, so...

That was incredible.

That was the bombl

When did you stop believing
in heaven and hell?

I don't think I ever believed in hell.

It's a state, not a place.

And heaven to me is a state, not a place.

Do you believe in God at the present time?

- Oh, yeah.
- You do?

But you don't believe in heaven or hell?

No, I believe in a state, but not a place.

When did you stop believing
in heaven and hell?

I've always believed in heaven and hell,
as a state.

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