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Ford: One week ago, New York City...
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tottered on the brink of
financial default.
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The big Metropolitan city
has become obsolescent.
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Decay and pollution have
brought a deterioration
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in the quality of urban life.
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The financial resources of the city
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and the State of New York were exhausted.
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Responsibility for New York City's
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financial problems
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is being left on the front doorstep
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of the federal government...
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and unless the federal government
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intervenes,
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New York City within a short time,
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will no longer be able to pay its bills.
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I can tell you...
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I can tell you now...
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that I am prepared to veto any bill...
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that has as its purpose...
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a federal bailout of New York City
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to prevent a default.
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There's an old saying...
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the harder you try,
the luckier you get...
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and I kind of like
that definition of luck.
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McCormick: Because New York
had gone through
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one of the most insane white flights,
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neighbourhoods which were
historically low income,
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totally fell apart.
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One of the biggest blights would have been
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the Lower East Side at that time.
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Sante: Landlords were
faced with 20 percent,
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30 percent, occupancy
and at some point or other,
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they started figuring out that
there wasn't going to be any
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new flood of occupants anytime soon,
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and they might as well just
get the place burned down
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for the insurance money.
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Adler: It was dangerous.
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Anything could happen basically.
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There was no law.
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People were selling drugs
right out on the street.
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And it was just totally empty,
empty, empty,
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empty, empty. And quiet.
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From my apartment on Saint Marks
between 1st and A,
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there was a polish bar
down the street
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uh, where the juke box was
just completely stocked
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with some Bobby Vinton records.
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And, um, when they had
the door open on a warm night
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you could hear Bobby Vinton
all over the streets,
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that's how quiet it was.
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♪ I have nobody for my own ♪
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Jazz: The streets were
so intimate and so loving,
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like, you could just sit on
a bench and meet somebody
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who you could spend
the whole day with,
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you didn't even know who they were.
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And share really... secrets,
intimacies, uh, eat together,
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share a joint and then meet others
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on the way from one point
to another, to the park,
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end up at some club or a party.
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Nares: I guess the punk thing happened.
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There was this very sudden shift,
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um, of separation between people
who were remaining
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in the old school and people
that were branching into this,
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sort of new, unknown territory.
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McCormick: New York's like this
insane magnet for people,
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for their aspirations
and desire to reinvent themselves.
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Certainly the poverty,
the crime, the danger, the...
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all those, uh, seductive aspects
that would fit in
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with a generation
kind of coming of age
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with a lot of neolism,
the no future generation.
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Sante: We wanted turbulence,
you know, we wanted risk,
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um, we wanted danger,
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and we wanted to play to a crowd,
frankly.
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There were a couple of years,
it seemed, when everybody
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knew everybody and everybody
was doing everything.
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Everything came together.
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Monforton: Upstairs at
the Mudd Club
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at the end of the night were filmmakers,
artists,
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there were musicians
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and interested in what
each other were up to,
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uh, finding tremendous overlap.
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Sante: Meanwhile the downtown
art scene
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people were opening themselves up
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to other cultures.
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Foye: A lot of traditional hierarchies
had broken down.
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African American cultures,
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urban culture was
entering into the art world.
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Cortez: I mean for forward thinking people
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the age of the...
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of the white male was already over.
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I guess he was always...
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around, as we all were
from one club to another.
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He was definitely everywhere I went,
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like he would be there, right.
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You know, you'd be at Tier 3,
you'd be at CBGB's,
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you'd be at Mudd Club,
he'd be at all the art openings
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and he'd always be quiet.
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Jarmusch: And he was striking
once you met him,
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it's like you knew him, he was...
you couldn't... he was indelible.
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You and me, and we're walking,
a nice little romantic walk.
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Out of nowhere Jean came running up
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and was talking to us and like,
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"Hey Jim, hey, oh you're Sara,
what are you guys doing here?"
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And then he just disappeared
and you said something like,
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"Well, wow that was strange,"
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and I said "Yeah, I think
...you know, he's just like that,"
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and then he came running
toward us from having gone
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around the block with
a large red flower
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in his hand that he'd
obviously stolen
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from some market,
and he ran back up to us
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and gave you the flower,
and he said something like,
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"You're beautiful,"
or something and then whoosh
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he was gone again.
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But he was always trying
to steal all the girls.
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Diaz: When I first met him...
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I guess just a few months short of 16...
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he was living on the street,
you know, he'd run away.
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The Earl and the Albert,
like they were really
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sleazed out hotels
and he would end up
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staying there with God knows who.
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He had a great way of
expressing himself, so,
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he was really language oriented,
and I guess I was too.
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And we kind of
...kind of connected on that level.
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So we came up with this thing,
SAMO, you know,
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this is the same old shit.
I mean, it was...
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it was a logo, you know, SAMO,
copyright, dot dot dot.
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Me being a graffiti artist,
I thought
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it would be a great idea
to start writing it
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on the walls.
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The first ones were,
"SAMO is coming,"
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or "SAMO 4 U," dot dot dot.
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Jazz: You would see, like,
"SAMO as an antidote
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to blah blah blah,"
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and then you'd see a
broken bottle, you'd see...
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you know, just the environment
of the city around it,
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his work was a texture
like the crystals in the ground.
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I saw his writing on the street
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before I ever met him,
and I loved them instantly.
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One didn't know who SAMO was,
but his work
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was extraordinarily memorable
because frankly,
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there was a lot of graffiti
around at that time.
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Freddy: I remembered...
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theVillage Voicepiece on SAMO,
which is like incredible,
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like you know,
for anybody that did anything
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connected to graffiti
to get any kind of relatively positive
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exposure was a revelation.
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Diaz: After the Voice article,
Jean did actually jump on that.
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Decided he wanted to be
the face for SAMO.
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I was kind of, um, bitter about it.
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Scharf: All of a sudden
Al was gone
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and then I found out
they had a falling out...
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Jean's not letting Al write
SAMO anymore
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and I never really understood,
um, what that was all about,
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but pretty much didn't
see Al again after that.
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Diaz: He kept it going
in a different kind of thing,
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he started writing, like,
his musings
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and these little poems.
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Scharf: His work was just
...it was odd,
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it was very conceptual,
it was very curious,
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it was... it was almost alien.
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You saw it once and you remembered it.
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Monforton: I mean it wasn't,
like, your name
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or some kind of beautifully
crafted piece,
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it was, uh, something to consider.
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You know you took a minute,
you read it...
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and you contemplated that.
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Jarmusch: "The whole livery
line bow like this,
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with the big money all
crushed into these feet."
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Fitzgibbon: You know, plush,
safe, I think, you go like...
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what the hell is that?
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Several of the SAMO quotes
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would be attacking kind of
people trying to play
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the art game with their parents’ money,
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exposing people trying to be bohemian
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on their parents’ dime,
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whereas we were really scuffling
and trying to make ends meet.
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I had these shows, you know,
and film shows
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and art exhibitions at
5 Bleeker Store
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and suddenly there would
be all these, like,
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SAMO tags outside. I was like,
"Who's doing that?"
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Cortez: Not on trains,
not in the subways,
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not around the town, they were just
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specifically close to Soho
which was an art neighbourhood.
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He just wanted to get attention
from the art world
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more than the general people
on the street.
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His approach to the art world,
at first was,
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he'd be this gadfly.
He was adding his asterisk,
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you know, he was adding
his unanswerable... answer,
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you know, um,
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and that had to do with his ambition
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but also his, kind of,
impishness, you know,
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um, and also his sense of
being an outsider too.
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Yes, you saw SAMO,
and it was really different
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but you were noticing a lot of stuff
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so it was part of a conversation happening.
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Graffiti had had such a profound impact
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on the consciousness of New York,
so to be an artist
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in New York then, you couldn’t help
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but be, uh, informed by it.
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Scharf: The graffiti kids,
they had a huge impact,
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it was a whole worldview,
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uh, that I found incredibly inspiring,
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I still do.
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Freddy: Nothing about
graffiti was celebrated.
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It was the scourge of the
city at that time, it was hated.
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I mean it was a blight to a great extend
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but there was a lot of creative energy
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within that blight,
which people didn’t take the time
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to look at and examine.
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Wait a minute,
there's something developing here,
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that’s a real creative expressive form.
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Freddy: And Lee is just
the Leonardo da Vinci
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of subway spray-painting.
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Well over 100 whole cars.
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To paint one of those cars
you have to imagine, you know,
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you have an eight,
ten hour window of time
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to be able to go to a place,
you know,
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be very vulnerable for that.
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But the results the next day was fantastic.
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You know, when that train arrived,
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you felt like you arrived with it.
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When I met Fab 5 Freddy,
he caught up to me in my school,
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basically asked the teacher to ask me
to step out of the room.
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I thought he was a cop,
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I thought he was an
undercover police officer coming
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to apprehend me, you know,
he was the first one that
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I experienced as a person
that came on as a fan.
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Fred was very well-versed
about the art world
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and art movements
and he even actually tried
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to bring the group into conversations
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having to do with reflecting on the arts,
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on the outside art world.
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I had known about the
beginnings of rap music
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and DJ culture before any of this was known
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as hip-hop, and I thought,
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this is a part of a whole cultural picture.
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The music, this kind of
painting that we're doing
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and breakdancing, which
would typically go along
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with the rap music, I felt
was one important thing
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that if we could showcase together
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and put a frame around it,
it would make everything else
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we're doing, look good.
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It didn’t take long for
me to realize, yeah he’s...
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he’s trying to make comparisons, you know,
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like the Italian futurists
were moved by World War I.
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You know the horrors of that and the
Industrial Revolution.
246
00:14:01,169 --> 00:14:03,168
I mean, you know, the city
was burning down, literally.
247
00:14:03,329 --> 00:14:06,608
I remember going to the Bronx
and seeing the hues of orange
248
00:14:06,809 --> 00:14:10,489
in the sky and the murder rate
was at the highest point ever.
249
00:14:10,689 --> 00:14:12,449
And then to go back into the sanctuary
250
00:14:12,569 --> 00:14:14,169
and the quietness of the subway yards
251
00:14:14,329 --> 00:14:16,728
while hearing the gunshots right outside
the subway yards,
252
00:14:16,929 --> 00:14:19,329
somebody's life is ending
right now and I'm painting.
253
00:14:20,409 --> 00:14:21,528
It was a weird feeling.
254
00:14:22,368 --> 00:14:23,608
There was a sense of urgency.
255
00:14:23,969 --> 00:14:25,569
We were painting in rapid session
256
00:14:25,729 --> 00:14:27,168
because we didn't want to get killed
257
00:14:27,649 --> 00:14:30,249
and people thought the
crime wave was conducive
258
00:14:30,448 --> 00:14:31,889
with what was going on on the trains,
259
00:14:32,049 --> 00:14:33,009
the subway painting.
260
00:14:33,649 --> 00:14:36,208
You know, these young people
are opening the floodgates
261
00:14:36,449 --> 00:14:40,768
to a wave of crime,
couldn't be... more wrong.
262
00:14:40,929 --> 00:14:42,049
There were no other options
263
00:14:42,169 --> 00:14:43,449
on the plate and if you was
264
00:14:43,488 --> 00:14:45,889
a very creative person and you was immersed
265
00:14:46,049 --> 00:14:48,769
in this...
this city that was falling apart, you know,
266
00:14:48,929 --> 00:14:52,528
it was a miracle that we were...
we took that vehicle
267
00:14:52,769 --> 00:14:54,969
and we made it into a
conceptual work of art.
268
00:14:55,649 --> 00:14:58,968
I knew that I was working with...
with other artists
269
00:14:59,089 --> 00:15:01,649
and I was creating art and, uh,
270
00:15:02,049 --> 00:15:04,289
that’s what kept my... my candle lit.
271
00:15:05,409 --> 00:15:07,648
You know, it was a
movement for the times...
272
00:15:08,728 --> 00:15:13,169
but I knew that Jean...
was not one of the writers.
273
00:15:13,889 --> 00:15:15,968
He was never really a graffiti artist,
you know,
274
00:15:16,209 --> 00:15:18,369
I mean, he was not part of the culture,
you know.
275
00:15:18,529 --> 00:15:20,289
I mean, there was a way we dressed
276
00:15:20,368 --> 00:15:22,448
or how we spoke, he wasn’t part of that.
277
00:15:22,609 --> 00:15:24,888
Well graffiti, I mean,
anyone that's scribbling something
278
00:15:25,009 --> 00:15:26,128
on the wall, it becomes graffiti,
279
00:15:26,369 --> 00:15:28,088
you know, being black, and writing words,
280
00:15:28,208 --> 00:15:29,649
he's tagged as a graffiti artist,
281
00:15:29,809 --> 00:15:32,369
but that was his canvas, you know,
he didn't really have
282
00:15:32,448 --> 00:15:34,849
a place to live,
so if he wanted to create something
283
00:15:35,009 --> 00:15:37,008
he'd put it outside on the wall, right?
284
00:15:41,488 --> 00:15:42,929
Fitzgibbon: I was coming down Ludlow
285
00:15:43,089 --> 00:15:45,328
and I ran into him and he goes, "Oh,
286
00:15:45,488 --> 00:15:47,248
Coleen, do you have a place to stay?"
287
00:15:47,329 --> 00:15:51,689
and I was like,
"Ah, not really but if you want to crash
288
00:15:51,889 --> 00:15:54,209
on our floor, I've got...
you know my boyfriend is there,"
289
00:15:54,368 --> 00:15:56,409
and he was like,
"Oh, you have boyfriend?"
290
00:15:56,929 --> 00:15:59,809
I was like, "Yeah." He goes, "Oh..."
291
00:16:00,448 --> 00:16:02,048
"No thanks," you know.
292
00:16:03,489 --> 00:16:04,769
Monforton: He needed a place to stay
293
00:16:05,009 --> 00:16:08,569
and he was cute, right?
And he was also, um,
294
00:16:09,088 --> 00:16:12,928
so charismatic and interesting,
that he was magnetic.
295
00:16:13,168 --> 00:16:16,088
It was hard to... not want to be around.
296
00:16:16,448 --> 00:16:19,328
I mean I have vivid memories
of us sitting on my stoop.
297
00:16:19,928 --> 00:16:22,528
We would often be
sitting there smoking joints,
298
00:16:22,928 --> 00:16:27,089
it was right next door to a...
a flat tires fix joint,
299
00:16:27,649 --> 00:16:30,048
a lot of the old signage which was largely,
300
00:16:30,208 --> 00:16:33,529
I think Puerto Ricans and
Dominican establishments
301
00:16:33,689 --> 00:16:35,968
in the neighbourhood,
there was a lot going on there
302
00:16:36,208 --> 00:16:37,488
in the Puerto Rican culture.
303
00:16:37,809 --> 00:16:41,008
Jorge Brandon, you know,
the Teatro Ambulante,
304
00:16:41,409 --> 00:16:47,048
spewed poetry like on a
soap box right on the street.
305
00:16:55,649 --> 00:16:57,048
I mean, he would do funny things,
306
00:16:57,169 --> 00:16:59,089
like he would get up and take off,
307
00:16:59,288 --> 00:17:00,729
like he went to the Mudd Club
308
00:17:00,849 --> 00:17:03,088
and danced to like Sex Machine
and then came back.
309
00:17:03,488 --> 00:17:05,168
He was famous for going into the bathroom,
310
00:17:05,328 --> 00:17:07,808
the girls bathroom at
Club 57 and creating havoc.
311
00:17:08,208 --> 00:17:10,368
Everybody was crazy about him,
312
00:17:10,688 --> 00:17:12,529
you know, I mean it wasn't just me...
313
00:17:13,248 --> 00:17:14,129
everyone.
314
00:17:14,809 --> 00:17:18,649
But I was well aware I
was never the only one.
315
00:17:31,328 --> 00:17:35,969
♪ I'm a young barracuda
Swimming in the deep blue sea ♪
316
00:17:36,568 --> 00:17:37,528
Adler: When I met him,
317
00:17:38,009 --> 00:17:40,889
I went to a club and we partied all night.
318
00:17:41,169 --> 00:17:43,128
- Dancing and stuff...
- And dancing, you know,
319
00:17:43,249 --> 00:17:44,609
- which is what we did.
- Yeah.
320
00:17:44,889 --> 00:17:47,288
♪ ...Baby and I’m starved
For some of your love ♪
321
00:17:47,489 --> 00:17:50,168
After leaving,
and I was joking around
322
00:17:50,288 --> 00:17:51,808
and I said, "Oh, here's our ride,"
323
00:17:52,048 --> 00:17:54,288
and I pretend to open this car door,
324
00:17:54,369 --> 00:17:57,408
real fancy car door, and the door opens,
325
00:17:57,568 --> 00:18:00,448
so I was like, "Oh my gosh,"
and I closed it right away.
326
00:18:00,688 --> 00:18:03,089
And then these two guys,
Italian guys come out at us
327
00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:05,248
and go, "What were you
doing in our friend's car?"
328
00:18:05,408 --> 00:18:07,249
And we’re like,
"Nothing. Nothing,"
329
00:18:07,489 --> 00:18:10,168
and this guy throws me to the ground.
330
00:18:10,488 --> 00:18:12,729
One of the guys, like,
did like that with a knife,
331
00:18:12,928 --> 00:18:15,889
like at my stomach, like swung,
and I like, you know,
332
00:18:16,088 --> 00:18:17,688
moved back like that.
333
00:18:17,888 --> 00:18:19,808
I remember Jean coming out
334
00:18:20,088 --> 00:18:22,329
and coming upon this scene
335
00:18:22,688 --> 00:18:25,688
and, sort of, going after these guys
336
00:18:25,889 --> 00:18:29,088
and sticking up for
us, and then we ran off.
337
00:18:29,248 --> 00:18:30,689
Rosser: Yeah.
338
00:18:32,769 --> 00:18:35,089
People always didn't have a place to stay.
339
00:18:35,329 --> 00:18:37,608
"So, where you staying tonight?"
"Well, I don't know,"
340
00:18:37,728 --> 00:18:38,848
so, "Well, you can stay here."
341
00:18:39,169 --> 00:18:41,249
I went to bed, so I guess he found a place
342
00:18:41,369 --> 00:18:45,408
to sleep and he slept there and
so then he started to stay
343
00:18:45,848 --> 00:18:48,728
from time to time.
Alexis was living with me,
344
00:18:48,769 --> 00:18:50,049
and I had a small room in the front,
345
00:18:50,289 --> 00:18:52,048
and she was living with
me in that small room,
346
00:18:52,288 --> 00:18:54,368
so Jean would crash in the living room.
347
00:18:54,809 --> 00:18:56,729
You know people would come by, you know,
348
00:18:56,889 --> 00:18:59,769
it was like this fluid thing,
my friend Jennifer and stuff.
349
00:19:00,289 --> 00:19:02,209
If I had been out all
night I'd ring her bell
350
00:19:02,328 --> 00:19:04,129
maybe four or five o’clock in the morning,
351
00:19:04,289 --> 00:19:07,009
pray to God she'd let me in,
and she usually did,
352
00:19:07,088 --> 00:19:08,529
and I would get the couch.
353
00:19:08,608 --> 00:19:09,889
Jean was having issues at home,
354
00:19:10,049 --> 00:19:11,809
Jennifer was having issues at home,
355
00:19:12,288 --> 00:19:15,008
you know, but they could come to my house
and we could just
356
00:19:15,168 --> 00:19:16,528
listen to music and hang out,
357
00:19:16,609 --> 00:19:19,168
and no one would be judging them.
358
00:19:21,048 --> 00:19:23,168
Jazz: Jean-Michel took
Felice's couch from me,
359
00:19:23,648 --> 00:19:25,368
I felt like that couch was mine
360
00:19:25,409 --> 00:19:27,648
and it led to some rivalry between us.
361
00:19:28,449 --> 00:19:30,209
We would just argue and chase each other
362
00:19:30,368 --> 00:19:32,608
around her apartment,
she'd have to separate us.
363
00:19:32,888 --> 00:19:36,568
I think we were actually
reliving our own experience
364
00:19:36,728 --> 00:19:38,009
with siblings at home...
365
00:19:38,849 --> 00:19:42,488
something that was very,
very warm and familiar
366
00:19:42,608 --> 00:19:44,928
about him to me,
like a brother or a cousin
367
00:19:45,088 --> 00:19:48,288
and that's how we worked that out.
We loved each other,
368
00:19:48,528 --> 00:19:51,928
I mean we shared everything,
clothes, food, money.
369
00:19:52,128 --> 00:19:53,369
We were family.
370
00:20:02,009 --> 00:20:04,248
Rosser: You know Jean loved, like,
industrial music,
371
00:20:04,408 --> 00:20:06,328
like, um, you know, Test Dept,
372
00:20:06,448 --> 00:20:08,848
and Einstürzende Neubauten and whatever.
373
00:20:09,248 --> 00:20:11,728
Boom boom, boom boom.
374
00:20:12,288 --> 00:20:14,769
And you know everyone
used to carry boomboxes, right,
375
00:20:15,008 --> 00:20:16,208
so, everything else was carrying
376
00:20:16,368 --> 00:20:18,328
The Message or Grandmaster Flash
377
00:20:18,609 --> 00:20:21,688
and Jean was carrying,
like, industrial noise.
378
00:20:22,049 --> 00:20:23,648
So he used to come into my building
379
00:20:23,808 --> 00:20:26,528
at three o'clock in the
morning to stay there,
380
00:20:26,768 --> 00:20:31,288
blaring this industrial beat box
and my super, Mr. Galzavez,
381
00:20:31,488 --> 00:20:33,969
he'd come out and say,
"You motherfucker,
382
00:20:34,288 --> 00:20:36,208
turn that shit off, it's three o'clock
383
00:20:36,408 --> 00:20:37,969
in the morning. Fuck you,"
384
00:20:38,048 --> 00:20:39,889
and Jean used to say, "Fuck you!"
385
00:20:40,569 --> 00:20:43,768
So, you know, I started to get
a little more uptight, you know,
386
00:20:43,928 --> 00:20:46,008
and, uh, with the late-night scenes
387
00:20:46,208 --> 00:20:49,528
and the late-night arguments
and it started to become me
388
00:20:49,728 --> 00:20:51,969
and them, you know like me in the back room
389
00:20:52,128 --> 00:20:53,008
and then...
390
00:20:53,568 --> 00:20:56,609
Alexis and Jean, you know,
in the front room,
391
00:20:56,768 --> 00:20:59,489
and like Jennifer trying to
find a place to be,
392
00:20:59,808 --> 00:21:02,808
so I told Alexis you have to go.
393
00:21:04,289 --> 00:21:06,209
Adler: Felice and I had that argument,
394
00:21:06,448 --> 00:21:10,128
we moved out of the house and... her house
395
00:21:10,288 --> 00:21:11,128
and we didn’t speak
396
00:21:11,808 --> 00:21:13,088
which was huge for us
’cause we always speak.
397
00:21:13,168 --> 00:21:14,928
Rosser: I'd still see Jean everywhere,
398
00:21:15,088 --> 00:21:16,728
I'd still see Alexis everywhere.
399
00:21:16,929 --> 00:21:19,568
We all were going to see the same bands,
you know,
400
00:21:19,728 --> 00:21:22,608
and if there’s only like,
40 people in the audience,
401
00:21:22,848 --> 00:21:25,009
you know, and you're like hating someone
402
00:21:25,208 --> 00:21:26,808
who's there, I mean that's no fun, is it?
403
00:21:27,248 --> 00:21:28,569
So, you know, we just...
404
00:21:29,249 --> 00:21:30,888
we just became friends again.
405
00:21:31,169 --> 00:21:34,168
And so I found this gold coat,
and I just thought
406
00:21:34,368 --> 00:21:37,489
it was the coolest thing,
and I knew she would love it
407
00:21:37,568 --> 00:21:41,248
because anyone would love it.
It's a great coat, you know.
408
00:21:41,729 --> 00:21:44,128
You know, I was wearing this gold lamé coat
409
00:21:44,288 --> 00:21:45,888
down the street,
feeling really good,
410
00:21:46,048 --> 00:21:47,168
brought it home.
411
00:21:47,649 --> 00:21:50,768
The next morning I wake up
and it's painted...
412
00:21:51,488 --> 00:21:54,048
and it's painted really beautifully.
413
00:21:54,288 --> 00:21:55,888
Rosser: Jean had painted all over it.
414
00:21:56,129 --> 00:21:59,009
I was like, "Oh, that's cool,"
you know, so it was great,
415
00:21:59,248 --> 00:22:01,728
it was like we all three
became friends again.
416
00:22:07,968 --> 00:22:10,368
Adler: I found this place on 12th Street...
417
00:22:11,128 --> 00:22:13,528
and it was his first stable home,
418
00:22:13,689 --> 00:22:16,048
the first place he had a key to.
419
00:22:16,448 --> 00:22:20,009
Jean was about 18 and I was about 22.
420
00:22:20,409 --> 00:22:22,329
I never felt that he was my boyfriend
421
00:22:22,488 --> 00:22:25,968
but we did have sex,
we enjoyed each other’s company
422
00:22:26,128 --> 00:22:27,568
on a lot of fronts.
423
00:22:30,688 --> 00:22:33,088
He was discovering his own art form,
424
00:22:33,368 --> 00:22:36,448
having this apartment allowed
him some possibility
425
00:22:36,608 --> 00:22:38,848
of working on that, developing it.
426
00:22:39,168 --> 00:22:41,848
The walls and floor were his canvas.
427
00:22:43,088 --> 00:22:45,488
In the living room there was this turntable
428
00:22:45,649 --> 00:22:46,768
and his art.
429
00:22:47,968 --> 00:22:49,368
Yeah, I remember him fiddling.
430
00:22:49,728 --> 00:22:50,729
Obviously, I didn't...
431
00:22:51,448 --> 00:22:53,528
you know, it wasn't him
with a brush and easel,
432
00:22:53,688 --> 00:22:57,688
it was just him crazy gluing
something onto something else.
433
00:22:58,208 --> 00:23:02,048
Jean would be making art
the way we'd be smoking pot,
434
00:23:02,168 --> 00:23:03,608
you know we're having conversation,
435
00:23:03,648 --> 00:23:04,608
it was just like...
436
00:23:05,328 --> 00:23:08,048
it was just part of the stream
of things that were going on
437
00:23:08,289 --> 00:23:09,249
in that house.
438
00:23:10,848 --> 00:23:12,128
Adler: Anything could be brought up
439
00:23:12,288 --> 00:23:15,128
from the street and
take on a life of its own
440
00:23:15,328 --> 00:23:16,768
at the hands of Jean.
441
00:23:16,929 --> 00:23:18,208
They all did that.
442
00:23:18,849 --> 00:23:21,848
You know, I mean, you know,
Jean-Michel did that,
443
00:23:22,048 --> 00:23:25,208
Keith was doing that,
we were all hauling stuff out
444
00:23:25,528 --> 00:23:27,128
from the trash that was interesting
445
00:23:27,248 --> 00:23:28,608
and modifying it, and doing things to it,
446
00:23:28,768 --> 00:23:31,568
and going into abandon lots
and creating little...
447
00:23:32,208 --> 00:23:34,768
ephemeral, kind of installations.
448
00:23:38,528 --> 00:23:40,848
And I guess he was
doing all this writing too.
449
00:23:48,768 --> 00:23:51,008
Sante: Jean's writing and my
writing at that time
450
00:23:51,168 --> 00:23:52,928
had an awful lot of overlap,
451
00:23:53,048 --> 00:23:54,928
you know, probably
...I don’t know, we were reading
452
00:23:55,008 --> 00:23:56,888
William Burroughs and
crime novels, you know.
453
00:23:57,048 --> 00:23:59,288
The important thing
about Jean is he’s not just
454
00:23:59,448 --> 00:24:01,688
a great visual artist, he's a great writer,
455
00:24:01,888 --> 00:24:04,929
and the words are as
important as the visuals
456
00:24:05,048 --> 00:24:07,448
and this was a period when Jean was,
457
00:24:07,808 --> 00:24:11,008
uh, exploring the words, the writing.
458
00:24:12,728 --> 00:24:17,008
Sante: "Set, desk, Andy talking into
red tape recorder on desk.
459
00:24:17,248 --> 00:24:19,888
Institutional drab office with some objects
460
00:24:20,088 --> 00:24:21,648
that indicate home.
461
00:24:22,688 --> 00:24:24,288
I was having cold sweat nightmares
462
00:24:24,448 --> 00:24:27,968
about being chased,
so I became an alcoholic
463
00:24:28,288 --> 00:24:29,568
and now I'm an engineer.
464
00:24:30,288 --> 00:24:33,328
I retired at an early age
to avoid embarrassment.
465
00:24:33,888 --> 00:24:36,608
Two stops later, I'm plagued by
not having any money
466
00:24:36,768 --> 00:24:38,808
to go into diners and spread a rap
467
00:24:38,928 --> 00:24:42,928
as thin as margarine.
I become good at petty crime.
468
00:24:43,168 --> 00:24:46,848
Now in the zenith of my life with
my television best friends
469
00:24:47,128 --> 00:24:49,368
and six months down on my instalments.
470
00:24:49,968 --> 00:24:53,968
I think back to those times
and a smile comes to my face.
471
00:24:54,328 --> 00:24:56,408
I’m scared to look at my x-rays.
472
00:24:56,768 --> 00:24:59,168
Priest: You should never have lived.
473
00:24:59,488 --> 00:25:02,968
Andy: Yeah, maybe
not. It’s really hot in here.
474
00:25:03,288 --> 00:25:05,208
You think I can get a ginger ale?
475
00:25:05,408 --> 00:25:07,968
Priest: You really
gonna push it aren't you?
476
00:25:08,368 --> 00:25:11,248
Like some fat executive
with a big expense account,
477
00:25:11,488 --> 00:25:13,248
eating Rolaids like candy.
478
00:25:13,568 --> 00:25:14,688
Andy:
479
00:25:15,328 --> 00:25:16,368
I'm running out of Brillo
480
00:25:16,848 --> 00:25:18,368
and I don't have any cucumbers left.
481
00:25:18,688 --> 00:25:21,248
Priest: All you can
think about is yourself.
482
00:25:21,728 --> 00:25:25,048
Andy: This is my last day alive."
483
00:25:26,048 --> 00:25:27,328
Fade to black.
484
00:25:29,088 --> 00:25:31,008
Sante: This is poetry, you know,
485
00:25:31,168 --> 00:25:33,008
it's kind of got a narrative form,
486
00:25:33,247 --> 00:25:37,088
it resembles crime novels and crime movies,
487
00:25:37,368 --> 00:25:40,848
but he's using it like poetry,
he's chopping it up
488
00:25:41,048 --> 00:25:42,488
like Burroughs, you know.
489
00:25:44,528 --> 00:25:47,008
Cortez: You know, they call
graffiti artists, writers...
490
00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:49,208
but are they poets?
491
00:25:50,048 --> 00:25:53,808
Yes and no. Are they writers?
Yes and no.
492
00:25:54,168 --> 00:25:55,288
It's a different type of writing,
493
00:25:55,648 --> 00:25:58,688
it's more like what we say
in the news media
494
00:25:58,848 --> 00:26:01,248
as sound bites,
because originally,
495
00:26:01,408 --> 00:26:04,768
they were made for places
where trains would go by,
496
00:26:04,928 --> 00:26:06,528
you'd have to see them in a flash,
497
00:26:06,688 --> 00:26:07,968
read them really quickly...
498
00:26:08,608 --> 00:26:11,008
so they had to have a quick eidetic bite.
499
00:26:17,208 --> 00:26:19,288
Quiñones: I was taught by virtue
of what the group
500
00:26:19,448 --> 00:26:21,968
and what the movement was that
it had to be just for
501
00:26:22,168 --> 00:26:25,848
the enclosed group,
but I had exhausted everything
502
00:26:25,968 --> 00:26:27,768
that you could do in the underground,
503
00:26:28,128 --> 00:26:30,808
and I thought it was a time
to turn the chapter.
504
00:26:33,528 --> 00:26:34,808
It was the first of its kind,
505
00:26:34,967 --> 00:26:37,168
it was the first full handball court mural,
506
00:26:37,368 --> 00:26:39,448
created by someone from the subways.
507
00:26:39,648 --> 00:26:40,888
I did it on my own,
508
00:26:41,048 --> 00:26:42,848
uh, under the cover of darkness
509
00:26:43,008 --> 00:26:44,888
again in an eight-ten hour window.
510
00:26:45,648 --> 00:26:47,888
The neighbourhood was
completely blown away
511
00:26:48,128 --> 00:26:51,168
and the school was totally blown away.
512
00:26:51,488 --> 00:26:53,568
All the students were at those windows
513
00:26:53,728 --> 00:26:54,847
for two to three weeks.
514
00:26:55,568 --> 00:26:59,888
It was such a monumental feat
that even other artists
515
00:26:59,968 --> 00:27:01,488
were in awe that it was done.
516
00:27:01,728 --> 00:27:04,447
They felt the vulnerable state that I felt.
517
00:27:04,768 --> 00:27:07,768
How was he able to apply this imagery
518
00:27:07,968 --> 00:27:11,128
with this little bit of time
on a non-moving object
519
00:27:11,488 --> 00:27:14,368
in front of everyone’s eyes
and I think people needed to go
520
00:27:14,528 --> 00:27:18,208
and do these visitation rights
and even Keith was like,
521
00:27:18,328 --> 00:27:19,407
"Wow, how'd you do it?"
522
00:27:19,768 --> 00:27:22,488
I was like, "You just get a ladder."
523
00:27:23,647 --> 00:27:26,768
And that was the point of time
where I had arrived
524
00:27:26,928 --> 00:27:27,808
as an artist.
525
00:27:28,408 --> 00:27:31,128
I felt something different
from the subways.
526
00:27:31,768 --> 00:27:33,968
The subways are sort of like very
intrusive you know,
527
00:27:34,128 --> 00:27:36,687
they came to the audience,
but here we are at a wall
528
00:27:36,848 --> 00:27:38,448
where people came to the wall,
529
00:27:38,768 --> 00:27:41,568
and they had to, um,
now question themselves
530
00:27:41,728 --> 00:27:44,928
why they were at that wall
and what was it that kept them
531
00:27:45,088 --> 00:27:48,448
at that wall, and pretty much
instigated thoughts
532
00:27:48,607 --> 00:27:52,888
about art and placement and
where should art be.
533
00:27:53,728 --> 00:27:57,288
Uh, this is now the running legs
that this movement deserves.
534
00:27:57,968 --> 00:28:00,368
This is my proclamation that
this is an art.
535
00:28:00,768 --> 00:28:01,927
This is an art form
536
00:28:02,168 --> 00:28:04,088
and if you’re gonna point
fingers at me,
537
00:28:04,408 --> 00:28:05,528
I’ll stay around long enough
538
00:28:06,008 --> 00:28:09,248
to keep the light on for you
when you do come to your senses.
539
00:28:11,648 --> 00:28:13,688
Because the art world had no sense
540
00:28:13,847 --> 00:28:14,968
of what was going on.
541
00:28:15,328 --> 00:28:18,728
It wasn’t common to bring out
your thoughts about it
542
00:28:18,968 --> 00:28:20,688
because it was such a young movement
543
00:28:20,768 --> 00:28:23,648
and it was so radical and so fleeting.
544
00:28:27,167 --> 00:28:28,927
McCormick: Soho, a lot of those galleries,
545
00:28:29,207 --> 00:28:31,568
kind of, had their stable of artists.
546
00:28:32,128 --> 00:28:36,767
They weren't actively looking
for not just... not new artists,
547
00:28:36,928 --> 00:28:38,687
but for a whole different project.
548
00:28:39,488 --> 00:28:42,288
Sante: You know Leo Castelli,
Ileana Sonnabend,
549
00:28:42,527 --> 00:28:45,168
you'd pass these places and occasionally,
you know,
550
00:28:45,328 --> 00:28:47,928
you might still be interested
in some of those old artists,
551
00:28:48,088 --> 00:28:48,728
you know.
552
00:28:49,208 --> 00:28:50,487
Might still want to go see
a Rosenquist
553
00:28:50,688 --> 00:28:53,168
or a Rauschenberg show,
so you'd go in,
554
00:28:53,408 --> 00:28:55,448
but the galleries just seemed like...
555
00:28:55,648 --> 00:28:57,688
they were like banks or something.
556
00:28:58,167 --> 00:28:59,728
We'd followed this modernist thing,
557
00:28:59,968 --> 00:29:03,248
and Soho kind of left us
with minimalism at that point.
558
00:29:03,647 --> 00:29:05,528
Sante: People were making art
with index cards
559
00:29:05,687 --> 00:29:10,647
and Polaroid photographs
and writing on walls and...
560
00:29:10,848 --> 00:29:13,968
and it did get to be a little academic.
561
00:29:16,368 --> 00:29:17,487
McCormick: It wasn’t just graffiti
562
00:29:17,728 --> 00:29:19,168
that was being ignored by the art world,
563
00:29:19,488 --> 00:29:20,688
but young artists in general.
564
00:29:21,047 --> 00:29:24,248
In many ways, uh, the eruption
of graffiti inspired
565
00:29:24,408 --> 00:29:26,967
a lot of younger artists to take control
566
00:29:27,168 --> 00:29:29,048
over that situation on their own terms,
567
00:29:29,248 --> 00:29:32,088
and form their own groups, their own gangs,
like COLAB,
568
00:29:32,608 --> 00:29:38,688
which was more, uh,
inspired by the ’70s DIY of punk rock.
569
00:29:39,007 --> 00:29:40,288
One, two, three, four!
570
00:29:43,808 --> 00:29:46,287
Scharf: We were part of the street,
571
00:29:46,688 --> 00:29:49,248
the street was, what was happening,
572
00:29:49,648 --> 00:29:53,648
so, don’t wait around for some gallery
573
00:29:54,048 --> 00:29:56,128
to show interest in you, just do it.
574
00:29:58,328 --> 00:30:02,648
Fitzgibbon: COLAB was this group of
40 to 60 downtown artists
575
00:30:02,808 --> 00:30:04,247
all around the same age,
576
00:30:04,368 --> 00:30:05,487
and everybody wanted to do something
577
00:30:05,568 --> 00:30:07,608
as a group, have shows, have magazines,
578
00:30:07,768 --> 00:30:09,968
have live cable television shows.
579
00:30:10,967 --> 00:30:12,848
People were like really sort of angry
580
00:30:13,008 --> 00:30:15,728
at the galleries and
the establishment of the art
581
00:30:15,968 --> 00:30:17,888
so because of that we sort of went,
582
00:30:18,168 --> 00:30:19,568
okay well, we'll do this collective
583
00:30:19,928 --> 00:30:23,008
and we'll show ourselves and we'll
show other people
584
00:30:23,168 --> 00:30:24,208
that don’t get shown.
585
00:30:24,928 --> 00:30:28,608
We didn’t have to wait to be
appointed or anointed
586
00:30:28,848 --> 00:30:32,208
to be in the art world,
we could just be the art world.
587
00:30:36,607 --> 00:30:38,608
The artists wanted to make something that
588
00:30:38,768 --> 00:30:42,968
was a statement politically
about the time of being,
589
00:30:43,168 --> 00:30:46,207
sort of, everyone
who was disenfranchised.
590
00:30:46,528 --> 00:30:47,727
Soho could have the old left
591
00:30:47,928 --> 00:30:50,128
and you could have
Lucy Lippard and Hans Haacke,
592
00:30:50,207 --> 00:30:51,688
and people like that getting together
593
00:30:51,968 --> 00:30:54,847
and talking about their
field trips to Nicaragua
594
00:30:55,167 --> 00:30:59,648
and the march of, kind of, uh,
Imperial America.
595
00:31:00,288 --> 00:31:02,048
The rest of us were kind of going
596
00:31:02,368 --> 00:31:04,968
but I just stepped over a
body to get here,
597
00:31:05,248 --> 00:31:07,008
where is the actual address
598
00:31:07,128 --> 00:31:09,048
about what's going on in New York.
599
00:31:09,488 --> 00:31:12,528
They kind of just went
forward with their ideologies
600
00:31:12,608 --> 00:31:14,408
or projects and their aesthetics,
601
00:31:14,928 --> 00:31:19,248
but they couldn’t quite fathom
the real slippage, uh,
602
00:31:19,488 --> 00:31:21,887
in terms of cultural traction
that was happening.
603
00:31:23,168 --> 00:31:26,168
Sante: The immediacy of the art
that was going on downtown,
604
00:31:26,368 --> 00:31:30,527
the... you know,
the COLAB stuff, all their theme shows,
605
00:31:30,687 --> 00:31:31,968
that was alive.
606
00:31:33,888 --> 00:31:35,968
Fitzgibbon: Diego said I want to do
this Batman show,
607
00:31:36,128 --> 00:31:38,848
he had a lot of people come
and bring Batman stuff.
608
00:31:39,248 --> 00:31:41,848
There was this little kid
and he had all these like
609
00:31:42,047 --> 00:31:46,608
really tiny like little drawings
and they were really great,
610
00:31:46,928 --> 00:31:49,207
very like... stick figures and I think
611
00:31:49,408 --> 00:31:52,607
that's when Jean-Michel really
started coming in more
612
00:31:52,767 --> 00:31:53,727
to look at the art.
613
00:31:54,208 --> 00:31:55,887
He would just come in
and look at the artwork
614
00:31:55,968 --> 00:31:58,568
and then asked me questions about,
"Who did this,
615
00:31:58,767 --> 00:31:59,607
who did that?"
616
00:32:00,368 --> 00:32:02,848
You could tell he was like,
"This is good, this is not."
617
00:32:03,088 --> 00:32:05,568
You know, like, really
well informed, right?
618
00:32:05,728 --> 00:32:08,888
Knew his history, knew
his political history...
619
00:32:09,727 --> 00:32:13,088
and it's interesting that he
didn’t bring in any drawings
620
00:32:13,248 --> 00:32:15,647
for it, because it was...
the shows were open, right,
621
00:32:15,807 --> 00:32:19,927
he could’ve brought stuff
in to any of those shows.
622
00:32:20,207 --> 00:32:22,487
I think also Jean-Michel, saw like yes,
623
00:32:22,688 --> 00:32:25,007
it's very political,
but also these people are not
624
00:32:25,087 --> 00:32:27,128
making any money,
and they're not getting anywhere,
625
00:32:27,248 --> 00:32:28,088
right?
626
00:32:28,847 --> 00:32:31,328
♪ ...Thumping into my
gut Soldier soldier... ♪
627
00:32:31,488 --> 00:32:33,568
McCormick: One of
the first really powerful,
628
00:32:33,727 --> 00:32:38,967
important gestures
COLAB created was in 1979.
629
00:32:39,448 --> 00:32:42,687
They took over a building on the south side
630
00:32:42,848 --> 00:32:44,968
of Delancey Street, with the idea that...
631
00:32:45,728 --> 00:32:48,047
why are we dealing with homelessness,
632
00:32:48,287 --> 00:32:51,488
why are we dealing with
people not having anything
633
00:32:51,648 --> 00:32:55,727
proper to live and survive in,
when we have all these buildings
634
00:32:55,807 --> 00:32:56,448
that are empty?
635
00:32:57,168 --> 00:32:59,088
And the show opened basically,
New Year’s Eve...
636
00:32:59,728 --> 00:33:04,047
and come New Year’s Day 1980,
the police shut down the show.
637
00:33:04,288 --> 00:33:06,208
There were figures like
Joseph Boyce, going,
638
00:33:06,328 --> 00:33:08,727
"No, you cannot do this,
you can't shut artists
639
00:33:08,887 --> 00:33:10,328
out of the ability
to show their work.
640
00:33:10,767 --> 00:33:13,807
You can't shut down these
voices of dissent and activism."
641
00:33:14,008 --> 00:33:16,247
It became a big news story
and in many ways
642
00:33:16,407 --> 00:33:18,808
a lot of other artists who
weren't as familiar
643
00:33:19,007 --> 00:33:22,167
with what COLAB was trying to do
became attracted to them,
644
00:33:22,327 --> 00:33:24,608
to that kind of energy to what
they could manifest.
645
00:33:25,248 --> 00:33:27,968
It’s gradually gotten bigger,
646
00:33:28,128 --> 00:33:30,328
but you know, not at a huge scale,
647
00:33:30,527 --> 00:33:34,048
you know the crossover finally
got started for COLAB.
648
00:33:36,768 --> 00:33:39,567
Certainly it was not lost
on Jean-Michel.
649
00:33:46,047 --> 00:33:47,488
We had, uh, bumped into each other
650
00:33:47,608 --> 00:33:50,167
on the street one day and we
just ended up hanging out
651
00:33:50,528 --> 00:33:53,407
for the rest of the day,
and dropping some acid
652
00:33:53,528 --> 00:33:55,128
and staying up all night on the street.
653
00:33:55,288 --> 00:33:57,727
At one point, he did turn to me
and say that
654
00:33:57,967 --> 00:34:00,368
he knew that he was
gonna be very famous.
655
00:34:03,648 --> 00:34:05,407
"I'm gonna be...
I'm gonna be a superstar.
656
00:34:05,647 --> 00:34:08,367
I'm gonna be famous.
I'm gonna be a famous artist,"
657
00:34:08,448 --> 00:34:10,528
and we used to be like,
"Okay Jean, you know, cool,"
658
00:34:10,648 --> 00:34:11,407
you know.
659
00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:13,727
Sante: Being ambitious
in terms of your art
660
00:34:13,887 --> 00:34:15,647
was what we all had in common.
661
00:34:16,047 --> 00:34:17,847
It was sort of about being a rock star
662
00:34:18,048 --> 00:34:19,968
even if you didn't play an instrument.
663
00:34:20,447 --> 00:34:22,687
Basquiat is like, pretty ambitious,
right,
664
00:34:22,848 --> 00:34:24,847
I mean, he always would go
where somebody
665
00:34:25,048 --> 00:34:27,887
was doing something and want to,
sort of be part of it,
666
00:34:28,048 --> 00:34:30,207
without saying he wanted to be part of it.
667
00:34:33,008 --> 00:34:36,207
It is theCanal Zone and it’s
happening here and now.
668
00:34:36,367 --> 00:34:38,208
If you're lost, you can find yourself
669
00:34:38,368 --> 00:34:40,207
right here, right now in theCanal Zone.
670
00:34:40,408 --> 00:34:42,127
One day, looking in theVillage Voice,
671
00:34:42,448 --> 00:34:46,288
I noticed this little blurb
that was about Fabulous 5.
672
00:34:46,487 --> 00:34:47,968
They would come to your space
673
00:34:48,128 --> 00:34:50,168
and do giant graffiti burners for a fee.
674
00:34:50,207 --> 00:34:51,808
Well, I decided, let me call this guy up,
675
00:34:51,968 --> 00:34:53,568
I'd never met Fab 5 Freddy before,
676
00:34:53,728 --> 00:34:56,608
I called him and we talk about doing events
677
00:34:56,768 --> 00:35:01,128
and projects and what came up
was this idea of doing a party
678
00:35:01,568 --> 00:35:05,047
in which we would show
the work of the Fab 5,
679
00:35:05,248 --> 00:35:07,968
the graffiti artists, where
what would later be called
680
00:35:08,128 --> 00:35:12,128
hip-hop, street, you
know, graffiti art world,
681
00:35:12,447 --> 00:35:16,727
would meet the downtown,
fine art world of New York.
682
00:35:17,007 --> 00:35:19,088
There was one person that came uninvited
683
00:35:19,327 --> 00:35:21,168
was Jean-Michel Basquiat.
684
00:35:22,368 --> 00:35:24,247
I was well aware of the punk rock scene
685
00:35:24,367 --> 00:35:26,488
at the time and so people
that were close to punk
686
00:35:26,687 --> 00:35:29,248
and also new wave were
doing interesting things
687
00:35:29,408 --> 00:35:31,448
to themselves visually like with the hair,
688
00:35:31,607 --> 00:35:33,687
and so when I saw Jean-Michel
it was clear, like,
689
00:35:33,888 --> 00:35:35,968
he was connected to that sensibility.
690
00:35:36,127 --> 00:35:37,967
That's how I remember,
uh, meeting him
691
00:35:38,168 --> 00:35:41,967
at thisCanal Zone,
uh, party on Canal Street.
692
00:35:43,007 --> 00:35:45,728
Holman: He shows up,
sees these giant pieces
693
00:35:45,887 --> 00:35:48,767
by the Fabulous 5 and says,
"I want to do a piece too,"
694
00:35:48,927 --> 00:35:52,128
and all of a sudden, we're like,
"Woah, this is SAMO."
695
00:35:52,288 --> 00:35:55,887
Everyone knew SAMO's pieces,
these genius pieces of poetry,
696
00:35:56,087 --> 00:35:58,487
I mean all these brilliant SAMO tags
697
00:35:58,687 --> 00:35:59,647
and poems.
698
00:36:00,127 --> 00:36:02,087
But nobody knew who it was,
it was a mystery.
699
00:36:02,807 --> 00:36:04,888
He understands already
at this point that
700
00:36:05,007 --> 00:36:06,167
he wants to be a famous artist,
701
00:36:06,528 --> 00:36:07,967
he already knows how to
be a famous artist,
702
00:36:08,127 --> 00:36:11,327
he showed up at that party
as part of his to do list
703
00:36:11,488 --> 00:36:12,527
to become a famous artist.
704
00:36:12,687 --> 00:36:14,127
He knew to show up at this party.
705
00:36:14,207 --> 00:36:15,647
And then when he saw the video cameras,
706
00:36:15,767 --> 00:36:17,808
he knew he had to be on video,
and this is a time
707
00:36:17,887 --> 00:36:19,967
when we really weren't doing
a lot of video interviewing.
708
00:36:20,087 --> 00:36:23,288
SAMO, S-A-M-O, come on,
you've seen it on the walls,
709
00:36:23,408 --> 00:36:24,528
especially down in the village.
710
00:36:24,607 --> 00:36:26,527
This gentleman right here is SAMO.
711
00:36:26,848 --> 00:36:29,927
Soon after the interview, you know,
I sought Jean out,
712
00:36:30,047 --> 00:36:31,928
because I didn't know who he was,
I'd never met him,
713
00:36:31,967 --> 00:36:34,047
never really even said hello to him
before the interview.
714
00:36:34,207 --> 00:36:35,807
He goes, "Do you want to start a band?"
715
00:36:35,927 --> 00:36:39,247
And I'm like, "Yeah!"
And that's how Gray started.
716
00:36:40,047 --> 00:36:43,448
So the Canal Zone party was
super important at the time.
717
00:36:43,647 --> 00:36:46,048
It was the first time that
SAMO was revealed,
718
00:36:46,487 --> 00:36:48,928
Jean-Michel and I started our band Gray,
719
00:36:49,407 --> 00:36:52,368
it was also the first time hip-hop
was experienced
720
00:36:52,527 --> 00:36:53,647
by the downtown art scene.
721
00:36:54,047 --> 00:36:56,367
You know, so it was people like myself
and Fab 5 Freddy
722
00:36:56,567 --> 00:37:00,127
bringing these artists downtown
and then rubbing shoulders
723
00:37:00,407 --> 00:37:02,487
with the downtown art scene artists
724
00:37:02,687 --> 00:37:05,367
like Jean-Michel Basquiat
and everybody else.
725
00:37:05,727 --> 00:37:08,927
Um, uh, really put...
really helped put hip-hop on the map.
726
00:37:09,207 --> 00:37:12,087
♪ Party people, party people ♪
727
00:37:12,368 --> 00:37:15,447
♪ Can y’all get funky? Just hit me ♪
728
00:37:17,087 --> 00:37:19,248
♪ Just taste the funk and hit me ♪
729
00:37:20,608 --> 00:37:22,688
♪ Just get on down and hit me ♪
730
00:37:23,888 --> 00:37:26,287
♪ Bambaataa’s gettin’
So funky, now, hit me ♪
731
00:37:27,487 --> 00:37:28,607
♪ Yeah ♪
732
00:37:29,167 --> 00:37:32,527
As the idea of hip-hop now
is becoming a thing
733
00:37:32,727 --> 00:37:34,807
amongst the downtown world,
these people
734
00:37:34,967 --> 00:37:36,087
are all partying together.
735
00:37:36,447 --> 00:37:39,167
I had met all the key players
in the rap music scene
736
00:37:39,408 --> 00:37:43,087
from the Bronx, Bambaataa, Flash,
Grand Wizard Theodore,
737
00:37:43,327 --> 00:37:44,727
Busy Bee and all these guys.
738
00:37:44,927 --> 00:37:48,448
When I curated the exhibit at
the Mudd Club, "Beyond Words"
739
00:37:48,527 --> 00:37:50,607
I got a bunch of them to come and perform.
740
00:37:51,127 --> 00:37:55,127
This was like a graffiti based,
rooted and inspired exhibit that
741
00:37:55,287 --> 00:37:57,207
I curated in the third floor of
the Mudd Club.
742
00:37:57,727 --> 00:38:00,687
And people came out the woodwork
and a lot of people were like,
743
00:38:00,767 --> 00:38:02,367
"Oh my God, I love this new energy,
744
00:38:02,527 --> 00:38:03,808
all this new music."
745
00:38:05,048 --> 00:38:08,407
Afrika Bambaataa was excited to come
and play for a different
746
00:38:08,567 --> 00:38:11,927
kind of audience, young, white,
new-wave, punk rock kids.
747
00:38:12,127 --> 00:38:15,888
Those experiences, Bam says, inspired him
748
00:38:15,967 --> 00:38:18,127
to make "Planet Rock"
which is a record that
749
00:38:18,327 --> 00:38:20,607
changed the whole face of dance music.
750
00:38:27,408 --> 00:38:31,567
I was turning Jean on to the, like,
early hip-hop party tapes,
751
00:38:31,807 --> 00:38:34,167
this is before rap records
really are coming out.
752
00:38:34,487 --> 00:38:38,047
The Cold Crush Brothers,
Grandmaster Flash and the guys,
753
00:38:38,207 --> 00:38:40,127
you know, this is from
street parties in the Bronx.
754
00:38:40,568 --> 00:38:43,927
We were becoming closer friends and we,
you know,
755
00:38:44,087 --> 00:38:46,687
really connected with music,
I mean, I'm telling him,
756
00:38:46,847 --> 00:38:49,047
like, hey man, you know this
guy Max Roach
757
00:38:49,247 --> 00:38:52,247
who’s this noted drummer
from the bebop scene
758
00:38:52,447 --> 00:38:53,407
is my godfather.
759
00:38:54,008 --> 00:38:55,647
I grew up listening to this music
all the time,
760
00:38:55,807 --> 00:38:58,527
in fact, I had just brought
one of my first jazz records,
761
00:38:58,808 --> 00:39:01,367
"Jazz at Massey Hall"
and I'm turning Jean on,
762
00:39:01,527 --> 00:39:04,568
and we're playing this
music really loud and dancing
763
00:39:04,767 --> 00:39:06,007
and laughing and making art.
764
00:39:06,488 --> 00:39:09,207
Charlie Parker and Dizzy
had been having a little beef
765
00:39:09,327 --> 00:39:11,247
when they played this particular show,
766
00:39:11,647 --> 00:39:14,127
and so Charlie Parker
introduces the song,
767
00:39:14,287 --> 00:39:16,127
he goes, "I'd like to
play a tune written
768
00:39:16,287 --> 00:39:18,687
by my worthy constituent
Mr. Dizzy Gillespie,
769
00:39:18,847 --> 00:39:21,527
I sincerely hope you do enjoy,
Salt Peanuts."
770
00:39:22,367 --> 00:39:24,447
When each one of these guys,
Charlie Parker
771
00:39:24,608 --> 00:39:26,207
and Dizzy Gillespie takes their solo,
772
00:39:26,367 --> 00:39:28,207
they're playing at blistering speed
773
00:39:28,287 --> 00:39:29,727
each trying to outdo each other.
774
00:39:29,887 --> 00:39:31,007
So it was like
775
00:39:31,127 --> 00:39:32,127
they were having a battle
776
00:39:32,607 --> 00:39:35,007
with their instruments,
which I found, like fascinating,
777
00:39:35,168 --> 00:39:37,567
and it was similar to what early rappers
778
00:39:37,727 --> 00:39:39,807
and early DJs, they would battle as well,
779
00:39:39,968 --> 00:39:42,207
like who's the best, like, in their craft,
780
00:39:42,367 --> 00:39:44,767
and I remember explaining that to Jean,
781
00:39:45,007 --> 00:39:46,767
Jean was really excited
about those stories,
782
00:39:47,007 --> 00:39:49,247
he was like,
"Wow man, tell me more, tell me more."
783
00:39:49,647 --> 00:39:51,967
It must have been not more than
a few weeks later,
784
00:39:52,127 --> 00:39:55,167
I went by to visit Jean
and he was really absorbing
785
00:39:55,647 --> 00:39:57,087
all of this bebop music.
786
00:40:07,287 --> 00:40:09,807
Obviously Jean was very aware that artists
787
00:40:09,887 --> 00:40:13,687
were gonna be in bands and musicians
wanted to make art
788
00:40:13,887 --> 00:40:16,207
and, you know,
I mean Jim was in The Del-Byzanteens,
789
00:40:16,448 --> 00:40:19,487
you know, and James Nares was...
was in The Contortions.
790
00:40:20,087 --> 00:40:22,807
Nares: The way we made music was the same
791
00:40:22,927 --> 00:40:26,607
as the way we made films,
which was just, you know,
792
00:40:26,807 --> 00:40:29,727
pick up the camera and do it,
pick up the guitar and do it.
793
00:40:29,887 --> 00:40:32,727
A lot of people were looking
for a way out and noise...
794
00:40:33,527 --> 00:40:36,567
and oblivion and drugs... were...
795
00:40:37,367 --> 00:40:39,927
completely in line
with everything else we were doing.
796
00:40:40,567 --> 00:40:42,167
O'Brien: I think when I first heard Gray
797
00:40:42,287 --> 00:40:44,288
they were still called Test Pattern.
798
00:40:44,927 --> 00:40:48,128
It had this sort of quiet
at the center of it...
799
00:40:49,247 --> 00:40:51,647
in the same way that,
like Miles Davis'
800
00:40:51,807 --> 00:40:54,207
like earliest electric stuff did.
801
00:40:54,367 --> 00:40:56,407
It just seemed really futuristic...
802
00:40:57,247 --> 00:40:59,247
and homemade at the same time.
803
00:40:59,967 --> 00:41:02,087
It just had a free jazz feel.
804
00:41:03,247 --> 00:41:05,167
Holman: Jean was clearly
the leader of the band,
805
00:41:05,247 --> 00:41:07,807
and again keep in mind,
I'm like five years older
806
00:41:07,967 --> 00:41:09,527
than he is, right.
I mean I’m supposed to be
807
00:41:09,567 --> 00:41:12,167
the wiser one.
I mean no, that's not the case.
808
00:41:12,287 --> 00:41:14,127
It was certainly democratic in that,
you know,
809
00:41:14,287 --> 00:41:16,567
the way we wrote music,
and in many other things.
810
00:41:16,767 --> 00:41:20,127
I actually was in charge
of our stage set and design.
811
00:41:20,287 --> 00:41:21,927
I saw them play a bunch of places,
812
00:41:22,047 --> 00:41:23,287
like one university
813
00:41:23,487 --> 00:41:26,047
and Mudd Club was kind of the
most memorable
814
00:41:26,207 --> 00:41:28,767
’cause they actually built like a crazy,
sort of,
815
00:41:28,927 --> 00:41:30,927
Russian constructivist set.
816
00:41:32,287 --> 00:41:36,527
Freddy: I remember they built this
like metal frame on stage
817
00:41:36,727 --> 00:41:39,447
and Jean I think was in a box
and he came up
818
00:41:39,607 --> 00:41:40,607
out of this box and...
819
00:41:40,847 --> 00:41:43,567
Holman: I had this idea to...
820
00:41:44,407 --> 00:41:48,527
create this ignorant geodesic dome,
821
00:41:48,727 --> 00:41:51,327
made out of scaffolding and
lumber and garbage,
822
00:41:51,487 --> 00:41:53,407
in which I put all my drums and me.
823
00:41:53,647 --> 00:41:56,047
And all you could see from the
audience was my head.
824
00:41:56,247 --> 00:41:59,407
Above me, Wayne Clifford
and Vince Gallo,
825
00:41:59,607 --> 00:42:03,567
strapped in at 45 degree angles
inside this jungle gym.
826
00:42:03,767 --> 00:42:07,287
And then Nick Taylor is
so high up in the set design,
827
00:42:07,487 --> 00:42:09,887
all you could see was him
from the knees down.
828
00:42:10,167 --> 00:42:13,527
Jean shows up at sound check
and the thing's built.
829
00:42:13,807 --> 00:42:15,567
He turns around and walks right out.
830
00:42:15,807 --> 00:42:19,207
Five minutes later, Jean returns
with this shipping crate
831
00:42:19,407 --> 00:42:22,127
with Chinese characters written on it,
walks up to the stage,
832
00:42:22,367 --> 00:42:25,647
tosses this wooden cube onto the stage,
833
00:42:25,887 --> 00:42:28,767
Jean scrunches his body up
and squeezes his body
834
00:42:28,887 --> 00:42:32,087
into this cube, he pulls his
little wasp synthesizer
835
00:42:32,127 --> 00:42:36,247
in with him, and his clarinet and
looks out at me and smiles.
836
00:42:36,447 --> 00:42:39,647
And I realized that in five minutes,
837
00:42:40,367 --> 00:42:42,127
without knowing what we were doing,
838
00:42:42,527 --> 00:42:46,007
he goes out into the streets,
into the alleys
839
00:42:46,167 --> 00:42:50,007
around the Mudd Club and finds
this wooden crate...
840
00:42:50,767 --> 00:42:55,126
that not only works perfectly
with the design...
841
00:42:55,806 --> 00:42:59,127
but has made him the
centre of attention.
842
00:43:00,127 --> 00:43:03,887
And I was like,
"You motherfucker."
843
00:43:05,247 --> 00:43:06,967
Freddy: I remember David Byrne
being there,
844
00:43:07,087 --> 00:43:09,047
and Chris and Debbie Harry
from Blondie,
845
00:43:09,207 --> 00:43:11,887
it was like people came out the
woodwork to see them play,
846
00:43:11,967 --> 00:43:13,407
it was really exciting.
847
00:43:16,367 --> 00:43:19,247
The Mudd Club was incredible.
848
00:43:20,607 --> 00:43:21,927
And I think that’s where the art world
849
00:43:22,487 --> 00:43:25,207
got its running legs, you know,
there was a whole new attitude
850
00:43:25,527 --> 00:43:28,087
and atmosphere being ushered
into the art world
851
00:43:28,247 --> 00:43:29,327
via through those clubs.
852
00:43:29,887 --> 00:43:33,087
McCormick: If we think 1979, 1980,
you have two clubs
853
00:43:33,247 --> 00:43:35,327
in particular that aren't just places
854
00:43:35,487 --> 00:43:38,207
where artists go, they're kind of
clubhouses.
855
00:43:38,687 --> 00:43:41,206
And they come up with a, kind of,
groupthink,
856
00:43:41,367 --> 00:43:42,487
in their own way.
857
00:43:42,846 --> 00:43:44,366
One would be Club 57
858
00:43:44,447 --> 00:43:45,967
and the other would be
the Mudd Club.
859
00:43:53,087 --> 00:43:54,287
McCormick: They're quite similar,
860
00:43:54,767 --> 00:43:58,687
and quite different. Club 57 was,
okay we're gonna create
861
00:43:58,847 --> 00:44:00,367
a miniature golf course...
862
00:44:01,087 --> 00:44:04,447
in the bar and then we're gonna
give it a reggae theme
863
00:44:04,727 --> 00:44:06,487
and it will be the
putt-putt golf course.
864
00:44:08,607 --> 00:44:10,727
Scharf: It was an
incredibly exciting space,
865
00:44:10,927 --> 00:44:13,487
every single night was a
completely different theme.
866
00:44:13,567 --> 00:44:15,807
♪ Can I have a taste of your ice cream? ♪
867
00:44:15,967 --> 00:44:19,647
The Club 57 regulars,
I'd say we were a lot more obnoxious.
868
00:44:19,807 --> 00:44:22,887
We'd be on psychedelics,
bouncing around the walls,
869
00:44:23,327 --> 00:44:24,247
screaming.
870
00:44:24,607 --> 00:44:26,967
Even though Jean would hang out there,
871
00:44:27,167 --> 00:44:30,127
I think he had a little like,
"You guys are
872
00:44:30,446 --> 00:44:31,567
a little too silly for me."
873
00:44:31,967 --> 00:44:34,207
He didn't really take part
in our shenanigans.
874
00:44:34,527 --> 00:44:37,007
♪ Can I lick the crumbs from your table ♪
875
00:44:37,166 --> 00:44:37,967
♪ No ♪
876
00:44:38,367 --> 00:44:40,607
But eventually, most of the Club 57 kids
877
00:44:40,767 --> 00:44:43,326
were hired to work at...
878
00:44:43,647 --> 00:44:44,566
at the Mudd Club.
879
00:44:44,767 --> 00:44:47,407
♪ No, mind your own business ♪
880
00:44:51,087 --> 00:44:54,967
The Mudd Club was cool, it was way hipper,
881
00:44:55,327 --> 00:44:57,726
a lot of great bands played there.
882
00:44:58,447 --> 00:45:00,687
Quiñones: The B-52s, Talking Heads,
883
00:45:00,766 --> 00:45:03,887
and James White and the Blacks,
and all those cats playing,
884
00:45:04,087 --> 00:45:06,807
you know, it’s like,
"Oh, whoa, what a smorgasbord
885
00:45:07,007 --> 00:45:08,767
of all these different temperatures."
886
00:45:10,206 --> 00:45:13,007
McCormick: The most,
kind of, interesting people
887
00:45:13,167 --> 00:45:14,127
of that generation,
888
00:45:14,527 --> 00:45:16,367
kind of acting the
coolest that they could.
889
00:45:19,167 --> 00:45:20,366
You could say the difference was,
890
00:45:20,567 --> 00:45:23,246
everyone at Club 57
was taking mushrooms
891
00:45:23,487 --> 00:45:25,566
and everyone at Mudd Club
was taking heroin.
892
00:45:25,846 --> 00:45:27,567
Pot, coke...
893
00:45:28,407 --> 00:45:31,407
Quaaludes. You couldn’t go to
the after after after hours
894
00:45:31,606 --> 00:45:34,646
clubs unless you had had some
coke somewhere along the line,
895
00:45:34,766 --> 00:45:35,887
I mean...
896
00:45:36,286 --> 00:45:37,847
it was just... it was...
897
00:45:38,527 --> 00:45:39,566
everywhere.
898
00:45:40,926 --> 00:45:42,487
Fitzgibbon: The sort of downsides was...
899
00:45:42,647 --> 00:45:45,046
of running a club is that the Mafia
900
00:45:45,247 --> 00:45:46,207
started moving in.
901
00:45:46,807 --> 00:45:49,207
There was a period where
there's lots of free coke
902
00:45:49,407 --> 00:45:51,247
and then suddenly it all disappeared
903
00:45:51,486 --> 00:45:54,207
and then it was replaced
by this other white substance,
904
00:45:54,367 --> 00:45:58,206
which they offered for free for,
like, maybe a month,
905
00:45:58,366 --> 00:45:59,287
a couple months.
906
00:45:59,807 --> 00:46:04,287
If downtown had been gutted
of its economic base
907
00:46:04,607 --> 00:46:06,726
there were hardly any businesses left.
908
00:46:07,126 --> 00:46:08,086
There was one
909
00:46:08,567 --> 00:46:09,687
incredibly lucrative... -
910
00:46:10,207 --> 00:46:13,046
...uh, thriving business which
was cocaine and heroin.
911
00:46:13,207 --> 00:46:15,127
With cocaine,
you had a fair amount of denial,
912
00:46:15,287 --> 00:46:18,007
people thinking that it just
made them more successful,
913
00:46:18,447 --> 00:46:22,127
and heroin with a whole...
well, maybe self-denial,
914
00:46:22,366 --> 00:46:26,367
but a whole lot of, uh,
mythologies attached to it.
915
00:46:27,807 --> 00:46:30,407
Jazz: Heroin, heroin, heroin, heroin.
916
00:46:30,606 --> 00:46:32,526
William Burroughs Naked Lunch.
917
00:46:32,767 --> 00:46:36,447
It was definitely considered
a rite of passage
918
00:46:36,606 --> 00:46:39,607
for a lot of the young guys who
thought it would give them
919
00:46:39,807 --> 00:46:41,087
some type of a...
920
00:46:41,887 --> 00:46:44,846
pathway into a deeper creativity
921
00:46:45,246 --> 00:46:48,127
and there were so many people
that people admired
922
00:46:48,286 --> 00:46:53,366
who had done heroin that,
it was part of the culture.
923
00:46:55,487 --> 00:46:57,127
McCormick: And it wasn’t just the artists
924
00:46:57,367 --> 00:46:58,487
who were doing drugs.
925
00:46:59,327 --> 00:47:01,325
In our neighbourhood if you like,
kind of, stayed up all night
926
00:47:01,326 --> 00:47:03,086
and you were coming home
in the early hours
927
00:47:03,167 --> 00:47:04,927
in the morning you would see already
928
00:47:05,087 --> 00:47:08,207
the big heroin spots, lines of town cars
929
00:47:08,407 --> 00:47:10,926
because it was all the Wall Street people
930
00:47:11,007 --> 00:47:14,007
getting their heroin before
they went to work.
931
00:47:15,407 --> 00:47:17,327
Jazz: Isolation with a vengeance,
932
00:47:17,486 --> 00:47:18,807
it's like the valley of death.
933
00:47:19,087 --> 00:47:21,807
The paraphernalia associated with it,
934
00:47:21,967 --> 00:47:22,767
it was so medical.
935
00:47:23,487 --> 00:47:24,886
It should’ve been clinically
936
00:47:25,046 --> 00:47:26,607
administered in a hospital setting,
937
00:47:26,686 --> 00:47:28,447
there was no joy to it.
938
00:47:30,686 --> 00:47:34,486
Quiñones: You know I'm still in wonder
of why people escape
939
00:47:34,607 --> 00:47:35,807
while they're escaping.
940
00:47:36,927 --> 00:47:40,087
I was very happy to be painting,
’cause I felt like
941
00:47:40,207 --> 00:47:42,487
I was doing something really fantastic.
942
00:47:43,006 --> 00:47:45,567
Why would I want to be in another headspace
943
00:47:45,727 --> 00:47:47,567
to not experience this in its rawness?
944
00:47:47,647 --> 00:47:50,367
It just was very foreign to me,
and I saw a lot of lives
945
00:47:50,487 --> 00:47:52,447
being taken right before my eyes.
946
00:47:53,966 --> 00:47:55,886
You know some of these venues
were celebrated
947
00:47:55,967 --> 00:47:57,887
because of the drugs that they
had inside of them,
948
00:47:58,127 --> 00:47:59,767
and people still remember them
to this day,
949
00:48:00,126 --> 00:48:03,007
but when you think about it,
they were actually little igloos
950
00:48:03,127 --> 00:48:05,687
where people went
and destroyed their lives.
951
00:48:29,086 --> 00:48:30,687
Field: He was intelligent...
952
00:48:31,487 --> 00:48:34,647
you know he came to
conclusions based on...
953
00:48:36,287 --> 00:48:39,167
his philosophies,
most people don’t have any philosophies,
954
00:48:39,327 --> 00:48:40,687
they're just walking around.
955
00:48:41,807 --> 00:48:45,006
And you know he was thinking
up all these angles...
956
00:48:46,047 --> 00:48:46,766
correctly.
957
00:48:47,407 --> 00:48:49,487
He was giving himself
these different brands,
958
00:48:49,847 --> 00:48:52,566
"I’m no longer SAMO, SAMO is dead."
959
00:48:55,487 --> 00:48:57,807
And then, you know,
when he did the clothes
960
00:48:57,967 --> 00:48:59,406
he called it Man Made.
961
00:49:00,206 --> 00:49:01,046
He was clever.
962
00:49:05,686 --> 00:49:08,247
As he might have said,
"I can paint clothes for you,
963
00:49:08,367 --> 00:49:11,127
I could paint on clothes,"
and I might have said,
964
00:49:11,486 --> 00:49:15,647
"All right, paint on clothes,
that sounds like an idea."
965
00:49:16,846 --> 00:49:20,246
Scharf: When Jean had his
painted sweatshirts
966
00:49:20,447 --> 00:49:22,527
in the windows of Pat Fields store
967
00:49:22,687 --> 00:49:25,326
on 8th Street and I
remember looking at them
968
00:49:25,407 --> 00:49:29,407
going, "Who's gonna buy these?"
’Cause they just looked so...
969
00:49:30,366 --> 00:49:31,246
fucked up.
970
00:49:31,766 --> 00:49:34,167
The aesthetic was so... rough.
971
00:49:34,687 --> 00:49:36,527
I don't know if they sold at the time,
972
00:49:36,887 --> 00:49:38,326
but I do remember the impression
973
00:49:38,447 --> 00:49:39,967
that I had from looking at them.
974
00:49:41,887 --> 00:49:44,126
Field: At that point I had ordered
975
00:49:44,287 --> 00:49:46,046
these paper jumpsuits.
976
00:49:46,647 --> 00:49:48,086
I said, "You could paint on these,
977
00:49:48,287 --> 00:49:50,286
I have... I can get a
bunch of these for you."
978
00:49:50,446 --> 00:49:51,967
♪ ...Baby, jukebox baby... ♪
979
00:49:52,127 --> 00:49:56,206
I personally found it inspiring...
980
00:49:57,727 --> 00:50:00,607
entertaining, interesting...
981
00:50:01,806 --> 00:50:05,486
and I responded to it because
it wasn't, like,
982
00:50:05,646 --> 00:50:07,247
mass-produced stuff.
983
00:50:08,207 --> 00:50:09,527
McCormick: Beyond the gallery system,
984
00:50:09,807 --> 00:50:11,767
artists were looking at other ways of,
kind of,
985
00:50:11,966 --> 00:50:14,367
inserting their art into
public consciousness.
986
00:50:14,686 --> 00:50:17,966
The shop windows had been this,
kind of, other voice
987
00:50:18,126 --> 00:50:20,206
going on in our culture, especially
with Bonwit Teller,
988
00:50:20,446 --> 00:50:22,766
where you have Salvador Dali
working there
989
00:50:22,926 --> 00:50:24,767
as far back as the ’30s,
and certainly
990
00:50:24,927 --> 00:50:28,087
with the early Johns and
Rauschenberg through Warhol.
991
00:50:28,607 --> 00:50:34,286
I think what Basquiat understood
was the nature of public space.
992
00:50:34,686 --> 00:50:37,326
He was really interested in how
he could get his art out
993
00:50:37,527 --> 00:50:39,926
into this public place in a way that,
uh,
994
00:50:40,127 --> 00:50:42,487
could have durability and autonomy.
995
00:50:43,167 --> 00:50:45,006
There was another, uh,
wonderful artist working
996
00:50:45,087 --> 00:50:46,686
at the same time in the
East Village,
997
00:50:47,127 --> 00:50:50,007
Greer Lankton, and she was doing all
the windows for Einsteins.
998
00:50:51,486 --> 00:50:53,287
Field: It might have been his suggestion
999
00:50:53,406 --> 00:50:54,967
to have a show in my store,
1000
00:50:55,487 --> 00:50:57,646
but whatever it was, it was a good idea
1001
00:50:57,886 --> 00:50:58,846
and it happened.
1002
00:50:59,327 --> 00:51:01,846
Before he had any gallery or
anything like that,
1003
00:51:02,046 --> 00:51:05,886
and he came in with about seven pieces,
1004
00:51:06,327 --> 00:51:09,367
there was a men's suit jacket,
then there was a typewriter,
1005
00:51:09,526 --> 00:51:12,566
and there was, I don't know,
some other electrical,
1006
00:51:12,767 --> 00:51:15,166
electronic thing.
And I said to him,
1007
00:51:15,326 --> 00:51:17,887
"Okay, if people want to buy them,
1008
00:51:18,127 --> 00:51:19,606
how much do you want for them?"
1009
00:51:20,286 --> 00:51:22,846
And he was like,
"Well, this one 10,000
1010
00:51:23,006 --> 00:51:25,766
and that one 20,000,"
and I was like, "Jean-Michel..."
1011
00:51:27,006 --> 00:51:29,886
"I don't think...
I think that's a little bit high."
1012
00:51:30,767 --> 00:51:33,806
But he said, "No," and I said,
"Fine, you want the 10,000,
1013
00:51:34,047 --> 00:51:36,126
I'll say 10,000, it's your deal."
1014
00:51:40,286 --> 00:51:41,526
But that was Jean-Michel.
1015
00:51:45,526 --> 00:51:48,567
We took the show down,
I had somebody working for me
1016
00:51:48,766 --> 00:51:50,966
at the time, and he called Jean-Michel
1017
00:51:51,167 --> 00:51:53,566
and he said,
"I'm getting a new apartment
1018
00:51:53,966 --> 00:51:56,046
and if I could have them in my house,
1019
00:51:56,287 --> 00:51:57,887
all my friends can come and see them,"
1020
00:51:58,047 --> 00:52:00,846
and so on and so forth,
and after two months
1021
00:52:01,006 --> 00:52:04,286
or three months, whatever,
he didn't pay his rent.
1022
00:52:05,406 --> 00:52:09,407
They padlocked his apartment
and they threw all the contents
1023
00:52:09,567 --> 00:52:10,527
in the dumpster.
1024
00:52:12,686 --> 00:52:13,567
I was like...
1025
00:52:14,846 --> 00:52:15,966
"Oh, my God."
1026
00:52:19,246 --> 00:52:21,686
Monforton: He was at that
time into Man Made,
1027
00:52:22,047 --> 00:52:25,607
’cause he had a coat on that was
sort of abstract painted
1028
00:52:25,887 --> 00:52:28,367
and it had Man Made with a copyright.
1029
00:52:31,647 --> 00:52:34,927
He took me one time to Soho
because he had postcards
1030
00:52:35,006 --> 00:52:36,167
he wanted to sell.
1031
00:52:38,686 --> 00:52:42,366
Actually me, Keith and Jean were
making these colour Xerox,
1032
00:52:42,686 --> 00:52:44,766
um, collages, postcards.
1033
00:52:45,326 --> 00:52:47,246
There was that store,
Rocks In Your Head, they had
1034
00:52:47,407 --> 00:52:49,646
my colour Xerox postcards,
they had Jean-Michel's.
1035
00:52:52,286 --> 00:52:57,007
Holman: He's really playing
a lot with collage and Xeroxing
1036
00:52:57,206 --> 00:52:59,286
and that collage work would oftentimes
1037
00:52:59,446 --> 00:53:01,967
necessitate him going to copy shops
1038
00:53:02,166 --> 00:53:04,407
and that almighty colour copier.
1039
00:53:04,766 --> 00:53:07,646
It was a big part of his visual voice.
1040
00:53:08,846 --> 00:53:10,286
Sante: Xerox machines had been around
1041
00:53:10,447 --> 00:53:12,886
in general circulation since
the late ’60s,
1042
00:53:13,047 --> 00:53:17,047
but they were really terrible
until around the mid-70s.
1043
00:53:17,206 --> 00:53:21,726
Suddenly they start being able
to reproduce on plain paper
1044
00:53:21,886 --> 00:53:23,446
with a fair amount of detail.
1045
00:53:23,767 --> 00:53:25,206
Suddenly xerography made
1046
00:53:25,326 --> 00:53:27,566
the whole band flyer revolution possible,
1047
00:53:27,766 --> 00:53:31,167
and associated forms of art,
and zines, you know,
1048
00:53:31,327 --> 00:53:33,686
zines started happening
around the same time.
1049
00:53:34,206 --> 00:53:36,766
You know a lot of people were using
collage work downtown
1050
00:53:37,006 --> 00:53:40,846
in the... in the punk days,
so he was inspired by that.
1051
00:53:42,046 --> 00:53:45,206
Nares: These experiments
with the photocopier,
1052
00:53:45,406 --> 00:53:47,326
which became a large part
of the paintings,
1053
00:53:47,487 --> 00:53:50,767
when he slaps the photocopied
images all over,
1054
00:53:51,006 --> 00:53:52,046
glue them on.
1055
00:53:55,806 --> 00:53:58,686
One time he came in and he said,
"Oh, Andy Warhol
1056
00:53:58,846 --> 00:54:01,767
bought one of my postcards,"
and we were like, "Wow, man,
1057
00:54:01,966 --> 00:54:04,207
that's great."
We were so happy for him.
1058
00:54:04,367 --> 00:54:07,087
Scharf: I was like,
"What? You actually talked to him,
1059
00:54:07,326 --> 00:54:09,886
and you actually sold something to him?"
1060
00:54:10,206 --> 00:54:12,846
It was like a very pivotal point,
1061
00:54:12,926 --> 00:54:18,246
like you made that connection to,
like, our hero.
1062
00:54:21,726 --> 00:54:23,646
Everyone was in some way...
1063
00:54:24,366 --> 00:54:26,806
brought to the city by...
1064
00:54:27,486 --> 00:54:28,927
the kind of visage of their heroes.
1065
00:54:29,366 --> 00:54:31,927
You couldn’t deny that we'd
all heard about The Factory
1066
00:54:32,126 --> 00:54:34,606
and we'd all read Andy’s books
and things like that.
1067
00:54:34,766 --> 00:54:36,526
This is fundamental to that generation
1068
00:54:36,886 --> 00:54:40,686
because Warhol, by that time,
by the art world standards,
1069
00:54:40,847 --> 00:54:45,647
he was so passé and so tacky,
he was considered pretty low
1070
00:54:45,806 --> 00:54:47,086
at that point in his career.
1071
00:54:47,326 --> 00:54:50,646
Kenny Scharf and Keith Herring
and Jean-Michel Basquiat
1072
00:54:50,806 --> 00:54:52,927
and... and a whole generation of people,
1073
00:54:53,246 --> 00:54:54,806
Andy was still their hero.
1074
00:54:55,006 --> 00:54:58,166
I found Andy Warhol to be
like a really exciting artist
1075
00:54:58,286 --> 00:54:59,886
because he worked in these
different mediums.
1076
00:54:59,966 --> 00:55:02,806
Andy was surrounded by music
and he was working in film
1077
00:55:03,006 --> 00:55:04,766
and doing all these different things that
1078
00:55:04,926 --> 00:55:06,526
I saw that they are interrelated.
1079
00:55:06,686 --> 00:55:09,606
He seemed to be having really
a lot of fun and a good time
1080
00:55:09,806 --> 00:55:10,646
while making art.
1081
00:55:11,246 --> 00:55:13,406
Jean-Michel would agree because
he was a favourite
1082
00:55:13,566 --> 00:55:15,407
of ours, we'd both talk about all his...
1083
00:55:15,486 --> 00:55:16,767
the things that he was doing.
1084
00:55:17,206 --> 00:55:19,606
He represented... uh,
1085
00:55:20,126 --> 00:55:21,526
what an artist could be.
1086
00:55:21,726 --> 00:55:25,086
The creative process is transferable.
1087
00:55:25,646 --> 00:55:27,327
It doesn't need to be...
1088
00:55:27,887 --> 00:55:29,326
I’m a visual artist...
1089
00:55:30,326 --> 00:55:34,006
she's a writer, he's a musician...
1090
00:55:35,006 --> 00:55:36,046
they make films.
1091
00:55:37,406 --> 00:55:41,366
The creative process,
it can cover the whole shebang of it.
1092
00:55:41,646 --> 00:55:44,526
The thing that Jean and I
were both in agreement on,
1093
00:55:44,726 --> 00:55:47,767
is, like the Malcolm X quote,
"By any means necessary,"
1094
00:55:47,926 --> 00:55:50,846
Jean had a copy of that poster
I remember at his house
1095
00:55:51,126 --> 00:55:53,406
and I... and I went out and bought one too.
1096
00:55:53,726 --> 00:55:55,727
You know Jean was like,
"Yo, whether it's music,
1097
00:55:55,806 --> 00:55:59,167
whether it's acting, film,
painting, it's gonna happen,
1098
00:55:59,406 --> 00:56:00,446
we're gonna do whatever,"
1099
00:56:00,606 --> 00:56:02,566
and I was like, "Yes, absolutely."
1100
00:56:02,846 --> 00:56:04,686
That was I think... part of that was
1101
00:56:04,886 --> 00:56:06,486
the Warhol influence, that you could work
1102
00:56:06,686 --> 00:56:08,726
in these different mediums
and it was all good.
1103
00:56:18,367 --> 00:56:21,726
Hi, and welcome to TVParty,
the TV show
1104
00:56:21,886 --> 00:56:23,966
that's a cocktail party but which could be
1105
00:56:24,127 --> 00:56:25,087
a political party.
1106
00:56:26,526 --> 00:56:27,606
Thank you very much.
1107
00:56:27,806 --> 00:56:28,526
Oh!
1108
00:56:28,927 --> 00:56:30,686
There he is, standing in the back,
1109
00:56:31,006 --> 00:56:33,246
Jean de New Orleans.
1110
00:56:39,487 --> 00:56:42,846
Freddy: What had been happening was,
um, through both of our
1111
00:56:43,006 --> 00:56:45,086
relationship with Glenn O'Brien,
1112
00:56:45,406 --> 00:56:48,246
Glenn was also one the
editors of High Times Magazine
1113
00:56:48,366 --> 00:56:50,446
and Glenn was like, "Hey man,
I'm gonna write a story
1114
00:56:50,526 --> 00:56:51,967
about what you guys are doing,"
1115
00:56:52,286 --> 00:56:54,366
and that story focused on myself,
1116
00:56:54,606 --> 00:56:55,886
Lee Quiñones and Jean-Michel.
1117
00:56:56,246 --> 00:57:00,126
The issue had just come out
and Jean said, "Yeah man, um,
1118
00:57:00,286 --> 00:57:01,806
come by my house tomorrow."
1119
00:57:01,966 --> 00:57:04,766
This was Alexis' apartment
that Jean was crashing at.
1120
00:57:04,926 --> 00:57:07,006
It was one of those classic
New York things
1121
00:57:07,166 --> 00:57:09,726
where you have to yell up
’cause there’s no doorbell
1122
00:57:09,886 --> 00:57:10,846
working on the building.
1123
00:57:11,446 --> 00:57:14,846
"Yo, Jean, Jean-Michel, SAMO,"
and Jean woke up.
1124
00:57:15,126 --> 00:57:17,366
He put the key in a sock, and balled it up
1125
00:57:17,526 --> 00:57:18,606
and threw it out.
1126
00:57:19,006 --> 00:57:21,726
He had a few sketchbooks,
scribble scrabble,
1127
00:57:21,886 --> 00:57:24,726
paint splattered everywhere,
and here's this magazine
1128
00:57:24,846 --> 00:57:27,126
and Jean had a copy and there's photos
1129
00:57:27,286 --> 00:57:30,846
of me and Lee, and talking about
what we were doing
1130
00:57:31,006 --> 00:57:33,766
and the scene that we were kind
of helping create.
1131
00:57:33,966 --> 00:57:35,926
I was just really excited and
Jean was like, "Yeah man,
1132
00:57:36,086 --> 00:57:38,806
it's a good thing, man, but...
but it's just one article man,
1133
00:57:38,966 --> 00:57:41,726
it's just one article."
I remember going like, "Wow!"
1134
00:57:42,166 --> 00:57:46,446
Like he was so, like, confident that,
"Yeah, there'll be more."
1135
00:57:46,526 --> 00:57:48,607
And I remember the thing
that really struck me was,
1136
00:57:48,766 --> 00:57:51,446
on the door of the refrigerator
it said, "grape jelly,"
1137
00:57:51,486 --> 00:57:52,966
He's like, "Yeah man, I just did...
1138
00:57:53,406 --> 00:57:55,286
I just did that man,
I think it's still wet."
1139
00:57:55,926 --> 00:57:57,886
And I was like,
"Grape jelly?"
1140
00:57:58,046 --> 00:58:00,526
It looked like somebody had
literally taken grape jelly
1141
00:58:00,766 --> 00:58:02,446
and smeared it and like smeared it
1142
00:58:02,606 --> 00:58:04,046
with his fingers, it was just so funny.
1143
00:58:04,126 --> 00:58:06,366
It was strange to me because
it had nothing to do
1144
00:58:06,526 --> 00:58:08,926
with style, he was like the anti-style.
1145
00:58:09,526 --> 00:58:11,606
And at that time I would never want my work
1146
00:58:11,766 --> 00:58:15,286
to drip and he was
like into letting it drip.
1147
00:58:16,086 --> 00:58:18,006
He was into letting art be itself
1148
00:58:18,366 --> 00:58:21,166
and that’s why his work was very,
you know, crude
1149
00:58:21,246 --> 00:58:23,806
and maybe childlike in some ways because,
you know,
1150
00:58:23,966 --> 00:58:26,206
when a child is drawing, there's no...
1151
00:58:26,526 --> 00:58:29,486
there's no holdings, you know,
you're not being held back
1152
00:58:29,686 --> 00:58:31,606
by anything, you're just going by...
1153
00:58:32,886 --> 00:58:33,886
spirit of the moment...
1154
00:58:34,486 --> 00:58:37,166
and that in itself made for speed,
rapidness.
1155
00:58:37,326 --> 00:58:38,606
We were painting in rapid session
1156
00:58:38,686 --> 00:58:40,206
because we didn't want to get caught,
1157
00:58:40,366 --> 00:58:42,766
but Jean was doing it because he felt
1158
00:58:43,006 --> 00:58:45,086
and probably knew that he only
had a limited amount
1159
00:58:45,246 --> 00:58:47,726
of time and in that urgent moment
1160
00:58:47,806 --> 00:58:49,246
in his life I don't think he knew
1161
00:58:49,406 --> 00:58:51,806
he was gonna die, but I think the passing
1162
00:58:51,926 --> 00:58:54,326
of the moment was very frightening
to him.
1163
00:58:55,446 --> 00:58:58,006
To not have an idea to get created,
1164
00:58:58,206 --> 00:59:01,886
you know life and... and art is
very fleeting
1165
00:59:02,206 --> 00:59:04,486
and, uh, he was very much afraid of that
1166
00:59:04,766 --> 00:59:06,806
and I think that's what kept his
wheels turning
1167
00:59:06,926 --> 00:59:08,285
faster than everybody else.
1168
00:59:10,366 --> 00:59:13,726
Holman: He pretty much abandoned that...
that collage style
1169
00:59:14,006 --> 00:59:16,046
at least within the context
of the baseball cards,
1170
00:59:16,126 --> 00:59:20,366
Pez cards, to go deeper
into a drawing style
1171
00:59:20,606 --> 00:59:24,086
in which now he's going back
and incorporating
1172
00:59:24,286 --> 00:59:27,806
figurative work in with this text.
1173
00:59:30,126 --> 00:59:32,406
Kliment: So he was moving from words
into something
1174
00:59:32,606 --> 00:59:35,646
that was pictorial and you really see that
1175
00:59:35,926 --> 00:59:37,686
evolution as you look at those things
1176
00:59:37,846 --> 00:59:40,046
on pieces of paper, they seem like
they’re writing,
1177
00:59:40,206 --> 00:59:45,206
but, uh, slowly but surely,
they're turning into images.
1178
00:59:45,406 --> 00:59:47,686
Sur: I think it’s very interesting,
1179
00:59:47,925 --> 00:59:51,446
his association between language and,
you know, media
1180
00:59:51,646 --> 00:59:55,006
and television and radio and what
you hear and music,
1181
00:59:55,166 --> 00:59:57,046
and that was all integrated and collaged
1182
00:59:57,206 --> 00:59:59,766
into this visual
representation of something.
1183
00:59:59,926 --> 01:00:02,606
Most of his stuff comes from cartoons
1184
01:00:02,766 --> 01:00:06,006
and bad movies and a lot of his stuff
1185
01:00:06,446 --> 01:00:08,526
is kind of spoofing textbooks.
1186
01:00:08,765 --> 01:00:12,446
My chemistry and biology books,
he studied those,
1187
01:00:12,726 --> 01:00:15,926
you can definitely see the
chemical compounds,
1188
01:00:16,086 --> 01:00:18,326
graphs... and charts.
1189
01:00:19,006 --> 01:00:20,886
Cortez: He always was sampling
1190
01:00:21,086 --> 01:00:24,366
anything with diagrams or...
or pictures.
1191
01:00:24,926 --> 01:00:27,806
He would, uh,
lift and make them his own.
1192
01:00:28,086 --> 01:00:30,486
The thing about Jean-Michel
was taking things
1193
01:00:30,646 --> 01:00:33,366
from everywhere and if they move you,
1194
01:00:33,486 --> 01:00:35,566
they become part of you, and then you can
1195
01:00:35,646 --> 01:00:37,246
put them back out. He's like a filter.
1196
01:00:37,726 --> 01:00:41,366
It was like living in a gallery
and it was constantly changing,
1197
01:00:41,566 --> 01:00:44,126
it was always exciting to wake up
in the morning
1198
01:00:44,366 --> 01:00:45,486
and see what had happened.
1199
01:00:45,966 --> 01:00:48,846
Jazz: Alexis' refrigerator door
was a Basquiat,
1200
01:00:49,085 --> 01:00:52,406
I think her bathroom door
was a Basquiat.
1201
01:00:53,006 --> 01:00:57,646
He was definitely developing his
language and his symbols.
1202
01:00:57,846 --> 01:01:01,845
It was pretty amazing to see
him becoming the artist
1203
01:01:02,006 --> 01:01:03,806
that he... he did become.
1204
01:01:16,766 --> 01:01:19,125
Diego showed me some of his drawings,
1205
01:01:19,486 --> 01:01:24,286
by ’79, like towards the
Times Square Show.
1206
01:01:25,206 --> 01:01:27,606
Freddy: Diego Cortez was like a curator
1207
01:01:27,966 --> 01:01:29,406
who had this new wave connection.
1208
01:01:29,565 --> 01:01:32,606
He got it, Diego, so he worked with Jean,
I know.
1209
01:01:34,846 --> 01:01:38,246
Cortez: Well, I met him, maybe in
1979 or something.
1210
01:01:39,326 --> 01:01:43,005
He told me about doing graffiti
on the streets and uh,
1211
01:01:43,166 --> 01:01:44,605
I never saw the SAMO graffiti
1212
01:01:44,606 --> 01:01:46,446
for months and months and months.
1213
01:01:46,845 --> 01:01:49,886
Finally after knowing him just
socially at the Mudd Club,
1214
01:01:50,286 --> 01:01:53,166
I ran into one of those
graffiti works,
1215
01:01:53,526 --> 01:01:55,446
then I made a little meeting with him,
1216
01:01:55,646 --> 01:01:57,246
said I wanted to work with him.
1217
01:01:58,966 --> 01:02:00,726
I mean the first time I saw his graffiti,
1218
01:02:01,046 --> 01:02:02,966
I said to him, you know, literally...
1219
01:02:03,126 --> 01:02:05,846
I mean, it's like a scene out
of a bad movie,
1220
01:02:06,126 --> 01:02:07,326
I said, "You know,
1221
01:02:07,606 --> 01:02:09,646
you're going to be as big as Andy Warhol."
1222
01:02:11,646 --> 01:02:13,526
Monforton: I think he probably
spotted him
1223
01:02:13,725 --> 01:02:17,806
early on as very important
and someone to promote
1224
01:02:17,886 --> 01:02:19,006
and watch.
1225
01:02:22,046 --> 01:02:24,766
I think that he probably
made the connection
1226
01:02:24,926 --> 01:02:27,086
between Jean and Henry.
1227
01:02:27,926 --> 01:02:31,405
Diego was a pivotal character
in all of this, absolutely.
1228
01:02:35,486 --> 01:02:37,566
Diego, you know, it was him that took me
1229
01:02:37,725 --> 01:02:40,605
to the Times Square Show, uh,
because he knew the people
1230
01:02:40,766 --> 01:02:42,446
at COLAB that organized the show.
1231
01:02:42,805 --> 01:02:48,726
Do you suffer from agoraphobia?
1232
01:02:49,886 --> 01:02:51,005
So do I.
1233
01:02:51,966 --> 01:02:55,486
To be or not to be,
another night around the palace
1234
01:02:55,726 --> 01:02:58,806
of exotic landlordism or going out...
1235
01:02:59,645 --> 01:03:05,726
to the Times Square extravaganza,
on 41st Street.
1236
01:03:13,406 --> 01:03:19,166
♪ There’s a new sun
Rising up angry in the sky ♪
1237
01:03:19,766 --> 01:03:24,726
♪ There’s a new voice
Crying we’re not afraid to die ♪
1238
01:03:25,246 --> 01:03:28,205
♪ Let the old world make believe ♪
1239
01:03:28,446 --> 01:03:30,805
♪ It’s blind and deaf and dumb ♪
1240
01:03:31,006 --> 01:03:32,766
Nineteen eighty,
there was this big exhibit,
1241
01:03:32,926 --> 01:03:35,486
it was the front-page
Village Voice cover story,
1242
01:03:35,966 --> 01:03:38,045
the first radical art show of the ’80s.
1243
01:03:38,686 --> 01:03:41,406
The Times Square Show
was kind of the first survey
1244
01:03:41,566 --> 01:03:43,326
of... of the underground.
1245
01:03:44,726 --> 01:03:51,245
It actually opened June 1st,
1980 and it went seven days
1246
01:03:51,406 --> 01:03:56,206
a week, 24 hours a day, in an
abandoned massage parlor.
1247
01:03:56,606 --> 01:03:59,605
Well, they called it a massage
parlor back then,
1248
01:03:59,806 --> 01:04:01,726
but essentially that was a whorehouse.
1249
01:04:01,966 --> 01:04:02,806
Art everywhere,
1250
01:04:03,285 --> 01:04:06,325
Jane Dickson, a number of
other artists were involved.
1251
01:04:06,366 --> 01:04:07,806
Fitzgibbon: There must’ve been 75 artists
1252
01:04:07,965 --> 01:04:10,206
in the show, including performance artists
1253
01:04:10,326 --> 01:04:11,606
and filmmakers.
1254
01:04:12,605 --> 01:04:15,765
Jarmusch: Charlie Ahearn,
Freddy Brathwaite and Lee
1255
01:04:15,925 --> 01:04:18,846
came up with the idea to make
Charlie Ahearn's film
1256
01:04:19,006 --> 01:04:20,926
Wild Style, while they were hanging out
1257
01:04:21,086 --> 01:04:22,846
at the Times Square Show.
1258
01:04:23,286 --> 01:04:25,566
It starred Lee Quiñones.
1259
01:04:28,766 --> 01:04:30,366
Fitzgibbon: Jeffrey Deitch showed up,
1260
01:04:30,526 --> 01:04:33,246
Barbara Gladstone showed up,
Brooke Alexander showed up,
1261
01:04:33,526 --> 01:04:36,566
they were all gallery dealers.
A lot of people got started
1262
01:04:36,686 --> 01:04:39,606
in the Times Square Show that basically,
1263
01:04:39,805 --> 01:04:41,326
hadn’t had galleries before.
1264
01:04:41,725 --> 01:04:43,126
And that’s where I met Keith...
1265
01:04:44,206 --> 01:04:44,845
and Kenny.
1266
01:04:45,405 --> 01:04:48,766
About a week after that, that’s when Keith
1267
01:04:49,046 --> 01:04:51,766
started his chalk drawings in the subway.
1268
01:04:52,086 --> 01:04:54,205
So for Keith, that made a huge impact,
1269
01:04:54,485 --> 01:04:56,125
meeting Freddy and Lee.
1270
01:04:57,085 --> 01:04:59,486
Quiñones: Jean made a piece,
he had to install something
1271
01:04:59,645 --> 01:05:00,446
on the walls.
1272
01:05:01,086 --> 01:05:05,086
Scharf: I do remember a painting
that he just whipped out
1273
01:05:05,246 --> 01:05:07,966
on a wall somewhere and you know,
1274
01:05:08,126 --> 01:05:12,606
like everything he did,
it just had this amazing energy
1275
01:05:12,766 --> 01:05:15,565
that would emanate from the lines.
1276
01:05:17,085 --> 01:05:18,366
Jarmusch: I remember a write-up
1277
01:05:18,646 --> 01:05:21,485
in Art in America about
the Times Square Show
1278
01:05:21,566 --> 01:05:25,045
and they mentioned SAMO
and they were really impressed
1279
01:05:25,205 --> 01:05:27,406
with this painting he had done on the wall.
1280
01:05:31,085 --> 01:05:34,686
He goes yet through another
transformation in which,
1281
01:05:35,006 --> 01:05:38,925
now he's using oil stick,
using crayon on, uh,
1282
01:05:39,005 --> 01:05:42,406
different forms of art paper,
but he’s maintaining
1283
01:05:42,605 --> 01:05:45,166
and holding onto that childlike hand,
1284
01:05:45,526 --> 01:05:48,566
which I think personally,
I mean this is just coming from me,
1285
01:05:48,925 --> 01:05:50,366
is... is his signature.
1286
01:05:58,846 --> 01:06:01,446
Freddy: So after the
Times Square Show had happened,
1287
01:06:01,726 --> 01:06:04,565
Diego was determined to do his own show
1288
01:06:04,685 --> 01:06:06,765
which would happen a year later,
1289
01:06:06,846 --> 01:06:11,645
called, New York New Wave,
which would feature myself, Lee,
1290
01:06:11,805 --> 01:06:13,485
and several other people
that had came from
1291
01:06:13,646 --> 01:06:17,526
the subway graffiti world,
as well as a lot of photography
1292
01:06:17,845 --> 01:06:20,565
and other paintings,
and it was a huge blockbuster
1293
01:06:20,686 --> 01:06:25,365
exhibit. The line was massive
to get into this exhibit.
1294
01:06:27,725 --> 01:06:29,645
Nares: The first artwork I saw of his
1295
01:06:30,045 --> 01:06:33,166
was in the show that
Diego put together at P.S. 1,
1296
01:06:33,885 --> 01:06:35,005
when it was...
1297
01:06:35,965 --> 01:06:38,525
beginning to become what he did.
1298
01:06:39,166 --> 01:06:42,925
There were shows like
little pictures of a car crash.
1299
01:06:44,205 --> 01:06:47,566
Sur: Jean-Michel with his work...
1300
01:06:48,445 --> 01:06:52,125
had an effect on everybody that saw it,
1301
01:06:52,445 --> 01:06:53,886
particularly the artists.
1302
01:06:54,365 --> 01:06:56,446
Nares: The writing,
and the visuals,
1303
01:06:56,726 --> 01:06:59,645
he had figured out how
to bring it all together.
1304
01:06:59,965 --> 01:07:02,526
I mean we'd already...
none of us were surprised,
1305
01:07:03,645 --> 01:07:06,766
I mean he was the one person
that all the artists
1306
01:07:06,925 --> 01:07:08,845
were talking about as
being really interesting
1307
01:07:09,086 --> 01:07:11,006
and really great and doing all this stuff.
1308
01:07:11,966 --> 01:07:15,646
O'Brien: That’s where the first,
you know, big Basquiat publicity
1309
01:07:15,885 --> 01:07:17,966
came from ’cause his stuff looked so great.
1310
01:07:18,686 --> 01:07:21,325
Yeah, that first show was, what...
1311
01:07:22,126 --> 01:07:24,365
put him suddenly into...
1312
01:07:25,485 --> 01:07:26,606
orbit.
1313
01:07:27,486 --> 01:07:31,046
Jarmusch: I remember I saw
Jean at an after-party
1314
01:07:31,326 --> 01:07:34,205
and he was sitting at a bar,
I remember him saying,
1315
01:07:34,645 --> 01:07:36,845
"What's your next movie,
what's your next movie idea,
1316
01:07:36,926 --> 01:07:39,165
what's it gonna be?"
And I was like, "I'm not sure,
1317
01:07:39,325 --> 01:07:41,205
I have a few ideas." And he said,
1318
01:07:41,566 --> 01:07:43,486
"If you want to hang out
sometime and just talk
1319
01:07:43,646 --> 01:07:45,406
about your ideas or tell them to me, man,
1320
01:07:45,525 --> 01:07:47,445
I'd love that, you know,
I love just hearing ideas,
1321
01:07:47,486 --> 01:07:49,445
you know, I'd love to know
what you're thinking."
1322
01:07:49,725 --> 01:07:51,485
Said, "Man, maybe you
can hang out sometime."
1323
01:07:51,645 --> 01:07:54,965
And then immediately he was...
shortly thereafter,
1324
01:07:55,125 --> 01:07:57,165
swarmed by a bunch of people.
1325
01:08:05,405 --> 01:08:10,205
Cortez: From mid 1980
through spring of 1981
1326
01:08:10,366 --> 01:08:13,566
or summer of 1981,
his works were mostly small
1327
01:08:14,486 --> 01:08:17,165
and then the work started to be larger.
1328
01:08:23,325 --> 01:08:27,445
Foye: Henry Geldzahler went down
to a studio that Jean-Michel had
1329
01:08:27,806 --> 01:08:30,686
just at the entry of the Brooklyn Bridge,
1330
01:08:31,005 --> 01:08:35,005
and he'd made the first painting
that he ever made really,
1331
01:08:35,285 --> 01:08:39,125
um, and Henry went to the studio,
he saw it,
1332
01:08:39,805 --> 01:08:43,885
he bought it for 500 dollars,
brought it home,
1333
01:08:44,126 --> 01:08:46,046
he had it hanging in his apartment
1334
01:08:46,525 --> 01:08:50,525
and he was giving me a
lecture that this guy was as good
1335
01:08:50,645 --> 01:08:51,765
as early Rauschenberg.
1336
01:08:52,245 --> 01:08:56,565
Now, I mean, here’s an artist...
he’s... it’s his first painting,
1337
01:08:56,766 --> 01:08:58,845
he’s only made it the day before,
1338
01:08:59,125 --> 01:09:01,885
Henry’s already bought it,
he’s got a hanging in his house
1339
01:09:02,206 --> 01:09:04,925
next to David Hockney
and Ellsworth Kelly
1340
01:09:05,246 --> 01:09:07,765
and Jasper Johns and...
and I didn’t argue with him
1341
01:09:07,925 --> 01:09:09,045
because he clearly was.
1342
01:09:09,405 --> 01:09:12,086
You just knew it,
I mean Jean just had it.
1343
01:09:13,565 --> 01:09:16,445
And then at a certain point,
he just took off
1344
01:09:16,845 --> 01:09:20,125
and you knew he was not coming back.
1345
01:09:24,885 --> 01:09:26,285
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1346
01:09:27,965 --> 01:09:29,405
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1347
01:09:31,166 --> 01:09:32,765
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1348
01:09:34,365 --> 01:09:36,005
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1349
01:09:37,405 --> 01:09:38,846
♪ Forever ♪
1350
01:09:43,646 --> 01:09:47,606
I'm so honoured to have known him at all,
you know.
1351
01:09:48,205 --> 01:09:50,125
What an example
of a real artist,
1352
01:09:50,325 --> 01:09:54,365
a true investigator,
of visual ideas
1353
01:09:54,525 --> 01:09:56,286
and language too,
for sure, and music.
1354
01:09:56,565 --> 01:09:59,006
♪ Keep them dreams burnin’ forever ♪
1355
01:10:02,205 --> 01:10:04,766
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1356
01:10:05,365 --> 01:10:11,445
The first time I saw his work
in a museum was, um, accidental.
1357
01:10:12,365 --> 01:10:15,125
And I'm drifting, daydreaming,
not really caring
1358
01:10:15,326 --> 01:10:18,206
about the work around me,
and the next thing you know
1359
01:10:18,366 --> 01:10:20,845
there's two Basquiat's
in this small room,
1360
01:10:21,405 --> 01:10:23,725
and everything starts
spinning around me
1361
01:10:23,885 --> 01:10:26,805
and once I got past that shock of seeing
1362
01:10:27,006 --> 01:10:29,166
someone who I considered a dude
from the street,
1363
01:10:29,365 --> 01:10:31,445
I realized that I was in the presence
1364
01:10:31,605 --> 01:10:34,365
of the most vivid
representation of an era.
1365
01:10:34,845 --> 01:10:36,606
I was really proud of how he disrupted
1366
01:10:36,846 --> 01:10:40,205
the whole damn thing. It was just radical.
1367
01:10:41,365 --> 01:10:43,925
♪ Forever ♪
1368
01:10:50,685 --> 01:10:53,085
Rosser: When they talk about
Leonardo da Vinci
1369
01:10:53,405 --> 01:10:55,325
and when they talk about
Willem de Kooning,
1370
01:10:55,485 --> 01:10:57,085
and when they talk about
Jackson Pollock
1371
01:10:57,325 --> 01:10:58,925
and when they talk about Titian,
1372
01:10:59,165 --> 01:11:01,566
and talk about whoever,
they will also mention
1373
01:11:01,686 --> 01:11:04,765
Jean-Michel Basquiat
and in a world
1374
01:11:04,925 --> 01:11:07,885
where black people are not
celebrated or supported,
1375
01:11:08,085 --> 01:11:12,445
the art world, right, he did it,
he did it, he blew the roof off
1376
01:11:12,605 --> 01:11:15,165
that sucker and you
have to love him,
1377
01:11:15,325 --> 01:11:18,686
the power of that,
and the possibilities for you.
1378
01:11:18,846 --> 01:11:22,365
I tell my son always,
you know he was like my son,
1379
01:11:22,526 --> 01:11:25,605
he's laughing, funny,
joking, you know...
1380
01:11:26,445 --> 01:11:29,325
he's not so different than you,
what can you do?
1381
01:11:45,365 --> 01:11:48,205
♪ Oh, ya keep that flame burnin’ ♪
1382
01:11:49,205 --> 01:11:50,485
♪ Mm-hm ♪
1383
01:11:51,326 --> 01:11:54,045
♪ Yeah, you gotta keep that flame burnin’
forever baby ♪
1384
01:11:55,645 --> 01:11:57,325
♪ Ohh-ho ♪
1385
01:11:58,165 --> 01:11:59,445
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1386
01:11:59,966 --> 01:12:01,565
♪ Yeah come on baby keep
them dreams burnin’ ♪
1387
01:12:02,046 --> 01:12:03,325
♪ Yeah ♪
1388
01:12:04,605 --> 01:12:06,365
♪ Forever ♪
1389
01:12:07,485 --> 01:12:09,325
♪ And ever ♪
1390
01:12:10,965 --> 01:12:12,405
♪ Forever ♪
1391
01:12:14,045 --> 01:12:15,565
♪ And ever ♪
1392
01:12:16,285 --> 01:12:19,925
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1393
01:12:36,245 --> 01:12:38,845
♪ Yeah it’s the dreams
That keep you free baby ♪
1394
01:12:40,125 --> 01:12:42,125
♪ Yeah, you gotta make
Them dreams come true ♪
1395
01:12:42,525 --> 01:12:44,686
♪ Oh, keep them dreams burnin’ baby ♪
1396
01:12:45,525 --> 01:12:48,126
♪ Yea-eah keep them
Dreams burnin’ forever ♪
1397
01:12:48,925 --> 01:12:52,245
♪ Oh, dream baby, dream
baby, dream baby, dream baby ♪
1398
01:12:52,405 --> 01:12:55,765
♪ Dream baby, dream baby, dream baby-eah ♪
1399
01:12:55,925 --> 01:12:57,205
♪ Forever ♪
1400
01:12:58,805 --> 01:13:00,085
♪ And ever ♪
1401
01:13:01,725 --> 01:13:03,445
♪ Forever ♪
1402
01:13:05,085 --> 01:13:06,685
♪ And ever ♪
1403
01:13:07,445 --> 01:13:12,885
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1404
01:13:34,365 --> 01:13:36,605
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1405
01:13:40,685 --> 01:13:43,485
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1406
01:13:45,245 --> 01:13:49,485
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1407
01:13:52,765 --> 01:13:57,085
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1408
01:13:59,765 --> 01:14:02,645
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1409
01:14:03,165 --> 01:14:05,485
♪ Yeah I see that smiling face now baby ♪
1410
01:14:06,485 --> 01:14:08,445
♪ Yeah you got the idea now ♪
1411
01:14:09,405 --> 01:14:11,645
♪ Yeah it’s the dreams you know ♪
1412
01:14:11,965 --> 01:14:13,725
♪ Yeah it makes you free baby ♪
1413
01:14:14,526 --> 01:14:17,645
♪ Yeah you gotta make it happen
You know, yeah I know you are ♪
1414
01:14:18,165 --> 01:14:19,925
♪ I see that smile ♪
1415
01:14:21,485 --> 01:14:22,645
♪ Oh babe ♪
1416
01:14:24,285 --> 01:14:27,805
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
1417
01:14:31,925 --> 01:14:34,765
♪ Dream baby dream ♪
1418
01:14:37,405 --> 01:14:40,925
♪ Oh, dream baby dream ♪
110045
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