All language subtitles for Jean Genet - interview by Bertrand Poirot-Delpech

An interview
with Bertrand Poirot-Delpech

Winter 1982

Who taught you
to write so well?

Grammar books.

Give us an example
of grammatical choice you made.

It's very simple.

It's the first sentence

of the first book I wrote.

It says something like this:

"You saw Weidmann in--"

The proof-reader

asked me to replace

the "you" by "we."

He said, "Don't you mean,
'We saw Weidmann'?"

I insisted on keeping
the original,

because I wanted
to stress the distance

between "you," the reader,
and "I," the narrator.

I was marking that distance

but within the rules.

Your rules.

I had to charm those people
you are talking about--

people like you.

The French intelligentsia.

Since I was writing

about such unique
and peculiar things,

I could only use a language...

known by the ruling class,

those I'd call "oppressors."

I call them my oppressors.

I wanted them to hear me,

and in order for them
to hear me,

I had to attack them
in their own language.

If I'd attacked them
using slang...

they would have
never listened.

It was impossible

to say what I had to say

in the "foreign" language
that slang is.

Only a bourgeois
could do that. I couldn't.

A doctor could do that,

a doctor to the poor
like Bardamu,

who would dare
to write in slang.

He was able to go
from proper French...

the language he used
in his doctoral dissertation,

to a more slangy language,
using ellipses, etc.

I had been to jail,
so I couldn't afford that.

I had to use
the oppressor's language.

The language was dotted

with a few slang words,

but that doesn't change--
at least I don't think it does--

its syntax.

If I fell in love--
and I did--

with language,

it certainly wasn't in school.

It happened when I was
about 15, in Mettray,

when I was given,

probably randomly,

a copy of Ronsard's sonnets.

I was stunned,

and I had to be heard...

by people like Ronsard.

First and foremost.

Since he is
at the origin of my love

for the French language

and for poetry,

it's only natural...

that I would give him
to a special place.

He would have
been outraged--

Ronsard would have been
outraged by slang.

There's something else.

The French language
is set in stone--

it was set

in the 17th century--

while slang is always
changing, it is mobile.

The slang used by Céline
is outdated.

It's almost--

we only understand it in
"Journey to the End of the Night,"

because, in the end,

that book made its way
into the bourgeois rhetoric.

However, in his subsequent work--

I don't know it very well--

I feel like he just
dives into slang,

and that he will consequently
soon be incomprehensible.

What if an oppressor told you
he was changed

after reading
Jean Genet's work?

Real oppressors don't read.

I don't think anyone can be
changed by what I've written.

One can hate what I've written

or agree with what I'm written.

Oppressors are never
just oppressors.

Human beings
absorb everything.

They are not changed

by a book, a painting
or a piece of music.

They are gradually changed
by the combination of it all.

And they use it
in their own terms.

Think of how much you have
transformed Sartre.

Were you transformed
by what Sartre wrote about you?

I didn't read all of it.
That was boring to me.

Did you experience exhilaration,
or pain or difficulty while writing?

One time only.
Just once.

- What were you writing?
- "The Screens."

Everything else was quite boring.

But I had to write it
if I wanted to get out of jail.

If you will,

since all my books

were written in prison,

I wrote them in order
to get out of prison.

Once I was out of jail,

there was no point
in me writing.

Indeed, my books helped me
get out of the can.

So once I was out,
what was there to say?

Is there a part of you
that's still in jail?

No. Fart of me is
still in countries

that were sucked dry
by the French,

like Morocco, with nine million people
living in absolute poverty,

like Mali and other places,

more so than in jail.

I'd like to know
how you feel about the fact

that France abolished
the death penalty.

I have no feeling whatsoever.

lam not in favor
of putting people in jail.

But it's their problem to solve

with the judges and officials.

It's not my problem to solve.

The judges and what we call the thugs
can settle their scores.

I don't care one bit.

The abolition
of the death penalty

is a political decision.

And I don't give a shit
about French politics.

As long as France won't adopt

what we call
"North-South" policies,

as long as France
won't care a bit more

about immigrants

or its former colonies,

I won't care
for French politics one bit.

Whether they chop off
white men's heads or not,

I don't care
one way or the other.

Which country is the least
disgusting to you?

I can't give you
a political answer,

but rather...

a religious one.

Good and evil...

are both part of human nature,
and they can be seen

in people and societies.

I don't judge--

I don't know what will come out

of the former colonial empires.

I don't know what good
will come of them.

I know a lot of evil things
came out of them.

Maybe good things
will come out of them too.

However, everything
is so mixed up together...

that no political system
will fully satisfy me.

Whatever it might be.

To develop our democratic system

in what used to be called
"metropolitan France"

is to develop that system

against African or Arab countries--
outside of Europe.

lam not too familiar
with English history,

but democracy
flourished in England

when the English colonial empire
was flourishing.

And that democratic ideal
was exercised

against India, etc.

When I left Mettray,

I was sent to Syria.

At the time, General Gouraud

was Syria's big shot.

It's the man with one arm.

He had Damascus bombed.

Since I was learning Arabic,

I left the quarters at 6:00--

I mean 4:00--

and I would come back
whenever I wanted to.

The boys in Damascus...

were very happy to show me

around the ruins which resulted
from General Gouraud's attack.

So I already had

a dual perspective

on who Gouraud was:

a hero and a son of a bitch.

Suddenly, I identified

completely with the Syrians.

Initially,

that feeling was
probably a little sly,

because I wanted them
to accept me,

I wanted them to like me,

to invite me
to play cards with them.

We would play cards,

which was banned
by the French government,

so by me, indirectly,
since I was in the French army.

Anyway,
we would go play cards,

and you know where?
In local mosques.

We'd play until 4:00 or 5:00 am.

So in order to be liked,
I criticized Gouraud,

but little by little,
I started to understand

that Gouraud and what
he was standing for,

was a Pi!!-

In the end,
I spent my whole life

going!) against...

the white man's rules.

I mean that, still today--

I'm 72 now--

still today, I can't vote.

Even if you think
it's of no consequence...

I am not a French citizen per se.

I have committed crimes
that were never amnestied.

Including one for theft,
for which I spent two years in jail.

They've changed all my convictions,
since I've deserted twice.

Tell us what happened in front
of that courthouse on June 16th, 1940.

I had just purged
eight months in jail--

to use your language--
for theft.

On June 16th,

I went to the courthouse
for my appeal,

but the commission
didn't show up.

It was probably in Bordeaux
the next day,

but they weren't there
when I showed up.

So I was in front
of the courthouse,

to be more specific

I was not far from
the police station,

where I saw a French
officer get undressed,

take off his uniform,

to put on plain clothes
in order not to be seen.

That was the 1940 defeat.

That was quite comical.

You could see those gentlemen,
wearing medals,

who had put a pointed
end to their cane

so they could pick up cigarette butts
without bending down.

Ladies from the rich neighborhoods

were selling newspapers--

"France Soir" or "Le Figaro"--

a lot of exciting things
like that were happening.

You might be thinking
of the German soldiers,

you might be thinking of Hitler,

who kicked the French's butt.

Well, yes, that made me happy.

I was happy they got
their butts kicked.

Yes, the French
were cowards

and so it made me happy.

Are you happy that the French were
cowards and paid for it in 1940?

Yes and yes.

Indeed, some private first class

from Prussia, or Austria,
overcame them,

but that was quite
funny at the time.

- Funny?
- Absolutely.

What the Germans did, in concentration
camps for instance, was that funny?

First of all, I wasn't
aware of that at the time,

and I'm talking about France,

not about the German people
or the Jewish community,

or the Communist people
who were slaughtered by Hitler.

I'm talking about the German army
beating the French army.

And you found that funny?

Hilarious. Really.

Regarding the debacle

of the French army,

you said to me,

probably a little maliciously,

"The German army also
put together the camps

and defended the oppressor,"

but the defeat of the French army

was also the defeat of those

who had condemned Dreyfus.

Were there other similar events
that made you happy?

Yes, the extraordinary resistance

put forth by the Algerians
and the North-Vietnamese

against the French
and the Americans.

Thanks, not solely
to their heroism,

but to their intelligence,
their imagination

and many other things,

the North-Vietnamese

were able to force
the American Ambassador

in Saigon

to pick up his flag and
to leave in his helicopter.

Right?

That's quite comical.

And how about Dien Bien Phu?

Made me very happy.

Very happy-

What if terrorists tactics in France
were similar to the Red Brigades'?

I would probably be
siding with them.

I couldn't do much,

since I can't see
very well at all.

But most likely,
I'd be on their side.

Even if that were to lead
to an even more repressive state?

Repressive...

against whom?

Against a few white men
who didn't have a problem

oppressing the people of Algeria,
Morocco and elsewhere.

Almost everybody in France,

even leftists,

was against Baader.

The left had forgotten

that Baader was one of the first

to demonstrate against the Shah

in Berlin.

He was one
of the first to destroy

that device

the Americans had
set up in Frankfurt,

which communicated orders

to Saigon.

He's remembered

as a German trouble-maker.

Do you think Gaddafi is
defending the Arab people?

Maybe you're not aware
that I am not an Arab.

So I can't speak
for the Arab community.

So I don't know.
And I can't speak for Gaddafi.

However, I know
what the name "Gaddafi"

means to the American people.

And to the European people...
of course.

So your logic is,

"lt's too bad
if the white man gets

what they inflicted
upon others."

I wouldn't say "too bad,"
I would say "well done."

Does evil make you happy?

You never smile more

than when you are describing
unhappy events.

Unhappy for whom?

I don't smile at poor
people's unhappiness.

I smile at the winners'
unhappiness.

But you well know that poor people
get hit first in such events.

French people are not poor.
Nobody in France is poor.

The immigrants are the poor
people in France,

but the French aren't poor.

They are still
benefiting from the fact

that France was
a colonial empire.

I visited a lot of ghettoes:

Harlem, the ghetto
with Angela Davis--

the one in Los Angeles-

and many more.

I've seen incredible poverty.

But when white people are victims
of poverty, you don't seem to flinch.

It's just that Black people
have never ill-treated me.

But you didn't choose
to be white.

Because I was born white,

and because I am
against the whites,

I've played for both teams.

I'm trying"

and I'm happy

when the white suffer,

while I "wear" the power
associated with whiteness,

since my skin is white

and my eyes are blue,
green and grey.

- So you're on both sides.
- I am indeed.

Is that something you like?

It is something

that has allowed to wreck havoc

in my own house.

What about Polish people, who are white
but have never colonized anyone?

Don't you feel anything for them?

Both Polish people
and any colonialist

have white skin.

I don't think
it's the original sin.

At least, not as
described in the Bible.

No, it's a sin...

that was premeditated.

They're getting squashed
every 30 years.

I'd like to conclude
on your question about Poland.

All I can say is
that it's their problem.

They allowed themselves
to get squashed,

half of them by the Soviets,

the other half by Hitler.

Before all that, they got
squashed by the Swedes.

Those are wars
amongst white people.

They're almost

provincial wars.

It's "War of the Buttons."

In "Le Monde," you wrote an article
that caused some turmoil,

an article in which you seemed to back
the Soviet Union in many ways.

Did you change your mind
after the events in Afghanistan?

I haven't changed my mind.

Don't you think that the presence of tanks,
in Afghanistan for example,

is a sign of oppression?

Are there as many tanks
as you're implying?

So you think that
the Soviets in Kabul

are not as misled
as the Americans in Saigon?

I think that power,
in whatever form,

is power.

However,

if some two or
three-year-old kid

was playing
with a bottle of cyanide,

I would take it from him.

The oppression
you're talking about...

concerning certain populations,

Eritrea, for example,

or Afghanistan,

and maybe Iran one day soon,

I'm not sure about that.

About that kind of oppression.

I have no proof,

because all the papers
that tell me about Afghanistan

or whatever country,

are papers

put together by our system,

which is extremely anti-Soviet.

If there was a war
between Russia and America,

whose side would you be on?

Okay...

My answer is obvious.
I'd side with Russia.

- Why is that?
- Because they're destabilizing.

Russia destabilizes.

They have a leavening effect.

The United States don't seem
like they can do that anymore.

- Leavening what?
- I don't know yet.

But it'd be disorder for you,
for the West.

And the American ideal of freedom
has no leavening effect?

That's the kind of questions
I asked Angela Davis.

And of course, she'd already
chosen the Soviet Union.

So you believe there's a future

for the restlessness and the disorder
brought about by the Soviet Union?

I always rely on restlessness
and instability,

because they're...

a sign of life.

Doesn't that force
bring about death?

Anything brings about death.

Of course.

So you believe in using force.

Because you can't say

that the Soviet Union has expanded
by convincing those around them.

The Soviet Union has expanded
through persuasion, too.

You're talking about
the Soviet Union?

What you call tyranny--

and maybe the Soviet Union
is exercising tyranny.

Maybe.

But have you considered

that maybe America has been
exercising tyranny on us and the world

- for a long time?
- Of course.

So how do you fight back?

If it weren't for the Soviet Union,

who would dare stop
the United States' ambitions?

What would we do
without the 1917 revolution?

The West crushed me,
but never convinced me.

Would you be offended if I told you
you had an air of innocence?

- No.
- Would you take it as a compliment?

I would, indeed.

Because we well know
the innocent are perverse.

Do you enjoy making use of that air of
innocence, knowing you are perverse?

I'm not making use of it.

If you tell me I have an air
of innocence, then I do;

if you think I don't,
then I don't. But...

I would prefer
if you told me I did, and meant it.

Not only do I mean it,
but I also think

that the angel of the Reims cathedral
looks like a thug, compared to you.

I think the angel of Reims
looks a little too-faced.

You said you were amused by God,
whichever He may be.

I'd like to know what you find
amusing in that god.

If you're talking
about the god of Judaism,

who then became
the god of Christianity,

there's nothing
amusing about Him.

But it happens that
I attended Sunday school

during the war.

When I was about eight or nine,

the priest in the village
were I grew up

had the reputation
of having fucked

all the soldiers' wives

who were living there.

People didn't
take him very seriously,

so what he was talking about
wasn't taken seriously

and we laughed about it
during Sunday school.

But Sunday school was taught
in such a stupid way

that it all sounded like a joke.

In "Our Lady of the Flowers,"
you talk about beauty,

referring to the character
of "Divers".

If Divers's face and body
were beautiful to me,

they weren't necessarily
beautiful to others.

The beauty of a face or a body

cannot be compared to the beauty
of Racine's writings, naturally.

Those are different things.
We know that.

But you have loved
real assholes, too.

I don't make such distinctions
as Sartre did

between the assholes--

he also called them
the "fuckable."

I don't make that distinction.

Since I am incapable
of defining beauty,

I am incapable
of defining love.

A man you would
call an asshole

because you see him
objectively,

would not be an asshole to me,
because I see him subjectively.

Today, most conflicts
are ideological, symbolic.

Do you think that artists or writers
have a responsibility in those conflicts?

Have you ever felt
like a soldier with a pen?

You sound like
Simone de Beauvoir.

I attended demonstrations
with Sartre

and Foucault...

but that was rather trivial.

The police was
rather respectful.

They treated us

more like their accomplices.

It looked like we were
the police's accomplices

instead of their opponents.

How did it feel
to have the police

work security
at one of your plays?

Well, I found the police
rather inconsequent.

Same with the French government.

Didn't you enjoy
that inconsequence?

I'd noticed it long before that.

I wanted to do it again
with Maria Casarés

at the Comédie Frangaise,

since they'd asked me
to put together "The Balcony,"

but I wasn't able to.
They didn't want Casarés.

Really?

She didn't them either.
She's far more dangerous than I am.

So you're a citizen of nowhere.

Of course not.

If you were to give a definition
of "motherland," what would it be?

- Language?
- No.

I did that as a joke a while back

in an article for "L'Humanité."

For me, a motherland
should be

made out of 300-400
oppressed people,

because I'd like to fight back.

I'd belong to a motherland
if I could fight,

but I have no desire
to fight for the French.

Or for anybody else.

Even with the Black Panthers,

they wouldn't have
wanted me

to fight for them.

I've got involved
in dramatic art...

so I could settle the score

with French society.

It's of little importance to me now.
The score has been settled.

So there's no anger
and no crisis inside you?

I think so--

I've responded so eagerly

that I'm wondering if I did so
without anger or crisis.

You've put your finger
on something...

something that
gave me an answer.

No.

I think I'll die,
still feeling anger

for you.

- What about hatred?
- No.

I hope not.

You don't deserve it.

So who deserves
hatred from you?

The few people I deeply love...

and who made me weak.

In the end...

this cross-examination
you've been putting me through

is turning into a conversation.

So I'd like to ask you...

in the end,

what's this movie about?
What is its purpose?

I've exposed myself

to you.

You'll know everything,
but for no purpose.

I don't know
if we've talked about...

about my feeling--

or rather the poetic expression

which changes everything,

and which can
transform a crime

not into something
respectable or not,

but into something poetic.

I mean that...

two words put together

or three, or four,
and two sentences,

can be more poetic
than a murder, for instance.

And if I had to choose

between the poetic expression

of words,

and the poetic expression

of deeds--
if there is such a thing--

I would pick the poetic
expression of words.

Death doesn't seem so--

I mean, going...

from life to no life
doesn't seem so--

think of how--

in my opinion,
it's not that--

it's not that sad

and not that threatening

if you just say it differently,

"going from life to no life,"

instead of "life to death."

What's important
is to say it differently.

We hear the expression
all the time these days

"to play down the situation."

Well, I'm playing down
the situation,

what will turn me
into a dead man,

by choosing
to say it differently.