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in 1920 the leader
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of an obscure german political party
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made what seemed at the time
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an insignificant decision
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[Music]
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[Applause]
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adolf hitler adopted a symbol for his
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national democratic socialist party
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it was a symbol which over the next two
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decades
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would become synonymous with hatred fear
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and a regime that slaughtered millions
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the swastika the swastika means
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nazism it means evil death
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and genocide in outfits it was an emblem
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that i
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hated and i didn't even want to see it
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but the swastika has a long and complex
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history
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for thousands of years this has been a
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religious symbol
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with a sacred past a sign of benevolence
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luck and good fortune
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and for the nearly one billion hindus
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around the world today
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it lies at the heart of their religious
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practices
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and beliefs for me personally the
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swastika means
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hope it means purity it means
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auspiciousness
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the swastika will be used by hindus to
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evoke
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a sense of the sacred to draw the
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attention of the divine
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to human undertakings
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[Music]
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but because of its recent past in the
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west the hindu swastika
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has sometimes provoked hostility
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i've got a tattoo of swastika on my lip
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and when i got it done the tattoo artist
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was a little taken aback and he's like
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ah
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do killer and i said no
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in the week when hindus across britain
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are celebrating the holy festival of
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diwali
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we tell the story of their sacred symbol
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and we bring together members of the
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communities for whom
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it has the most potent meaning to see if
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a new experience of the swastika
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could break down long-held prejudices
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it's very beautiful i mean it's
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obviously quite different
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being gold compared to red and black
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can hindus restore the reputation of a
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symbol they believe
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invokes the blessings of the divine
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sunday morning chalfont cricket club in
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leafy buckinghamshire
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a place associated with english teas and
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the gentle competitiveness
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of the weekend sportsmen
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certainly not a place you'd expect to
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see a symbol most commonly associated
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with the fascist regimes of pre-war
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germany
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[Music]
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but today is an exception
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[Music]
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the club is host to a hindu wedding
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celebration
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in which the swastika plays a vital role
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[Music]
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as the guests congregate and the happy
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couple arrive the hindu priest
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has an important task
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[Music]
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this is hindu where is the kunkum
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placing a swastika
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in front of the sacred area where the
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couple will sit during the ceremony
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[Music]
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and the meaning of this swastika is a
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world away from that of nazi germany
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[Music]
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it's a diagram the moment you look at
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the diagram which should
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invoke the peace within you so it has
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the swastika trustee means well-being
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swastika
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asking the well-being of the gods
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[Music]
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a statue of the elephant-headed god
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ganesh is placed at the center of the
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swastika
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ganesh is the remover of all obstacles
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and as the priest rotates him it's
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believed any hindrances to the ceremony
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are removed
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[Music]
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for hindus the swastika isn't only a
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sacred power for good
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but an essential element of any right of
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passage
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ramesh bhutni is the father of the groom
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the words fastik actually comes from the
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sanskrit word for
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a state of auspiciousness
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wherever any ceremony is performed and
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hindus have got 16 ceremonies during the
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lifetime
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and each one of them will have one way
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or the other in which the swastika
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is represented in the wedding the
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swastika
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it is the most important because the
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wedding ceremony marks a transition from
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one period of life to another
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and therefore all the auspiciousness is
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required
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hold their hands and get up yes it's the
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first exercise
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as unlikely as it might seem to those
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not brought up in the hindu faith
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for the hindus here today a wedding
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without a swastika would be unusual
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i now declare you wife and husband may
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god bless you look beautiful
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live happily ever after
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for this young couple the swastika
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ensures their marriage
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is blessed by the gods
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it's a far cry from its associations in
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the west
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[Music]
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most western people when they see it
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they
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see a nazi german symbol
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shawnaka has been a hindu priest for
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more than 30 years
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it is interesting that hindus themselves
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they're brought up with the swastika
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it's perfectly normal for them you see
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all the children at the wedding
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they're just seeing it from birth then
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they go to school and learn that the
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nazis use it in this way
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but you have to understand that here's a
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tradition that's ancient
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and the germans borrow it from a
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different culture and misuse it
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over less than two decades and all of a
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sudden it develops an internationally
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bad reputation
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of all the symbols produced by ancient
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and modern man
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this is the most contradictory and its
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origins
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are shrouded in mystery
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images of the swastika have been found
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across the world
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and the earliest examples date back
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thousands of years well the swastika is
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one of those strange symbols that you
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find
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in lots of different cultures you see it
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in china and japan
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you see it mongolia you see it in the
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ancient mediterranean world in greece
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even over in native american cultures
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and in the british isles as well
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but despite the swastika's prolificness
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its original meaning
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is an enigma
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perhaps it's just a simple elegant
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geometry
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maybe it was a solar symbol it's so
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universal
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that we can't really find a first point
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of use it just has a kind of an
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instinctive appeal
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across the world
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[Music]
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some of the most ancient swastikas were
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found here
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in india
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[Music]
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and over the centuries it's been adopted
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across the subcontinent
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by many different religions
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hindus buddhists and jains
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all see it as a holy symbol it's
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displayed
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just about everywhere to bring good
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fortune
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[Music]
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and there's one time of year that it's
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especially prominent
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at the hindu festival of diwali
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[Music]
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it's a five-day celebration to mark the
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hindu new year
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also known as the festival of lights it
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marks the triumph of good over evil
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and in india the streets are a riot of
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noise and color
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the festival honors deities such as the
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goddess of wealth lakshmi
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and so the swastika is painted on the
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account books
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for the new financial year to ensure
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prosperity
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but it's not just in the east that the
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swastika features in diwali festivities
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this is nisdan temple in north west
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london
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[Music]
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it's the spiritual home to thousands of
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hindus
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and every diwali the ladies of the
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temple spend
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hours making an incredible display
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known as a rangoli like this one in
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which the swastika
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plays a central role
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mongolia patterns are literal forms of
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art
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and they're created by hand generally by
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women
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who use rice or coloured rice
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avni chag has been celebrating diwali
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here for most of her life
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tavali represents the festival of light
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if you go back to physics lessons you'd
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always be taught how
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the spectrum of colors originate from
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white light
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and i think that's completely it's
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completely honoured within these
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beautiful
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beautiful geometric patterns within
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these beautiful designs that
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are created during diwali and most
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commonly you will see
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the hindu swastika and for some it may
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mean
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prosperity for some it may mean good
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luck
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for me personally the swastika means
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[Music]
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hope
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for hindus who've grown up with the
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swastika finding out that this emblem of
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light has been used for the darkest of
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purposes
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can be horrifying i was pretty
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much born with the symbols surrounding
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me
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and at special occasions uh festivals
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this symbol would be prevalent and then
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when i finally uh started studying about
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the second world war
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in history lessons at school i freaked
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[Music]
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out
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i saw the symbol and i was just
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completely gobsmacked
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seeing it in this textbook associated
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with the holocaust with genocide
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with racial intolerance was quite a
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shock
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and i wondered how it could have been
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sort of mutated from something so
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positive to something so negative
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so how did this sacred symbol come to
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symbolize one of the most
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evil regimes in history
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the swastika's metamorphosis began with
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an archaeological dig
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in the 19th century
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in 1874 excavations started at a site
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believed to be the ancient city of troy
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in turkey
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they were led by a german businessman
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named heinrich schliemann
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schliemann was an adventurer and his
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real mission was was to find the real
291
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troy
292
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the troy of the homeric epics now
293
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as he dug he found spheres strange
294
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spheres with
295
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an equator around them bearing the image
296
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of what we would call the swastika
297
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and plenty of fragments of pottery
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bearing swastikas
299
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what schliemann hadn't covered was to
300
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have deadly consequences
301
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his work would inadvertently lay the
302
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foundations
303
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for a new mythology of the swastika to
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be constructed
305
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one which would transform it from a
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sacred symbol of benevolence
307
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into the nazi emblem of the aryan master
308
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race
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now fleming did not know what these
310
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symbols were but there were
311
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scholars who were willing to interpret
312
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these objects and these symbols for him
313
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one of these men was a man called emil
314
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bernouff
315
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banoof was a scholar of ancient indian
316
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literature
317
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and it was to a hindu epic called the
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rig veda that he turned
319
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to try and make sense of schliemann's
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find
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in the rigvedas there are a people
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called the arias
323
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mentioned and in the lexicon of the
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rigvedas
325
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the word swastika is mentioned and
326
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scholars like bruneuf
327
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put the swastika together with the arias
328
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and said ah this was the
329
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the ancient symbol of these people the
330
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arias
331
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and these people were invaders
332
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warriors who came from the north who
333
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displaced
334
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the existing people of of india and
335
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these were the same people
336
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who we find represented in the pottery
337
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fragments of troy
338
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[Music]
339
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two entirely unconnected mythologies
340
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were becoming one
341
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the people of ancient troy were being
342
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fused with the aryans of the hindu rig
343
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vaders
344
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and the swastika was the symbol that
345
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bernouf claimed united them
346
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so really the the swastika fragment
347
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became for pseudo scholars like bernouf
348
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the perfect excuse to to build a new
349
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mythology
350
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and invent a single pan-european
351
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colonial warrior race using the swastika
352
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as their emblem
353
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[Music]
354
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for hitler a symbol with such a
355
00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:57,278
mythology
356
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albeit invented was the perfect emblem
357
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for his ambitions for germany
358
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the nazis were involved in this huge
359
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project of trying to create
360
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a new history for themselves they
361
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weren't really happy with their
362
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association with christian history
363
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because they saw that as having hebrew
364
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jewish roots and it was that notion of a
365
00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:19,278
history that was being kind of imagined
366
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out of these different symbols and
367
00:15:19,278 --> 00:15:25,360
sources that hitler wanted to use
368
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to give the nazi movement
369
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its own foundation
370
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within decades the swastika had been
371
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ripped from its ancient
372
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religious roots and become shorthand for
373
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the nazis
374
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and their chilling agenda
375
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it was perhaps the most successful
376
00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:52,958
example of cultural theft in history
377
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:55,919
when you look at the swastika you don't
378
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think this is the symbol of hinduism
379
00:15:55,919 --> 00:16:04,559
no the swastika means nazism
380
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it means evil death and genocide
381
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,480
with its new connotations across europe
382
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,360
so entrenched
383
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it seems unlikely that the hindu symbol
384
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,399
can
385
00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:18,879
ever rid itself of the shadow of nazism
386
00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:20,799
especially when for those who suffer
387
00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:24,879
directly in the holocaust
388
00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:24,879
it unlocks terrifying memories
389
00:16:26,958 --> 00:16:37,198
i was taken into my first camp at
390
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11 and a half it was just
391
00:16:37,198 --> 00:16:40,399
a horrendous place
392
00:16:40,450 --> 00:16:44,560
[Music]
393
00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:47,920
eric hirsch lost 81 members of his
394
00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:47,919
family under the nazis
395
00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:53,039
as hussmen were there
396
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:54,958
[Music]
397
00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:56,480
they were beating people and hanging
398
00:16:54,958 --> 00:16:59,919
people and
399
00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:05,838
just few of us survived but you see
400
00:16:59,919 --> 00:17:05,838
the swastika everywhere
401
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:14,500
and i applaud it actually
402
00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:14,500
[Music]
403
00:17:15,038 --> 00:17:32,480
i hated to to look at the demon
404
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:35,199
because i suffered very much under it
405
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,839
and even for young jews today it's a
406
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,410
symbol
407
00:17:35,839 --> 00:17:40,548
they still struggle with
408
00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:40,548
[Music]
409
00:17:41,919 --> 00:17:49,440
i do shudder when i see it
410
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,960
it's something that is very infamous in
411
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,960
the jewish community
412
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,798
and is something i think it would be
413
00:17:52,960 --> 00:18:00,400
very difficult
414
00:17:54,798 --> 00:18:02,639
to change
415
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,720
the nazi theft of the hindu's sacred
416
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,600
symbol changed the perception of the
417
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,360
swastika
418
00:18:05,599 --> 00:18:09,359
in the west forever
419
00:18:09,519 --> 00:18:16,400
and yet at the time in india it was
420
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,400
something most hindus were unaware of
421
00:18:17,038 --> 00:18:20,480
the vast majority of hindus especially
422
00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:23,200
in rural areas
423
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720
mostly illiterate obviously did not know
424
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,000
for a very long time
425
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,400
how it had been used by the nazis but
426
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,839
for the educated classes i think there
427
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,480
was a sense of being appalled
428
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:39,038
and amongst hindus today feelings
429
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,160
against the nazi's theft of the swastika
430
00:18:39,038 --> 00:18:44,079
run high germany
431
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,320
thought they can hijack this sacred
432
00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:48,720
symbol from the vedic culture
433
00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:50,720
and use it you know to enforce their
434
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:54,079
white supremacy and all that
435
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:57,360
and people are very angry and upset that
436
00:18:54,079 --> 00:18:59,439
you know a sacred symbol so dear to them
437
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,399
in their religion is hijacked by
438
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,400
somebody like this
439
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,960
after the war the feeling against the
440
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,840
swastika was so strong
441
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,840
that in germany and poland it was banned
442
00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:16,319
and since then it's become shorthand not
443
00:19:14,798 --> 00:19:19,599
for divine blessings
444
00:19:16,319 --> 00:19:19,599
but for race hatred
445
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:27,119
it's a misappropriation that's had a
446
00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:29,279
real impact on hindus today
447
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,439
the difficult thing is that the swastika
448
00:19:29,279 --> 00:19:34,798
that hitler uses and the swastika
449
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:38,400
that indian culture uses really do
450
00:19:34,798 --> 00:19:39,918
look a lot the same often the indian
451
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,240
swastika will have dots
452
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:44,000
between the forearms but there aren't
453
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,319
any definite differences that you can
454
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,160
always use to separate them out
455
00:19:46,319 --> 00:19:49,359
and that can make it hard for people to
456
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,400
distinguish which
457
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:55,199
symbol they're looking at
458
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,600
and it's this confusion in a society
459
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,679
with little understanding of hinduism
460
00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:01,519
that's led to the hindu symbol
461
00:19:59,679 --> 00:20:06,320
inadvertently finding itself
462
00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:10,158
under attack
463
00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:13,038
in 2007 german meps proposed a ban
464
00:20:10,159 --> 00:20:13,679
of the public use of swastikas right
465
00:20:13,038 --> 00:20:17,759
across
466
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:18,720
the european union it was a proposition
467
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:23,279
that upset
468
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:26,400
many hindus the british hindus
469
00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:28,798
woke up to this and they carried out
470
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,320
a campaign to bring awareness to the
471
00:20:28,798 --> 00:20:33,359
members of the parliament of
472
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:35,918
british parliament to
473
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,678
make them understand that how sacred
474
00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:38,830
this swastika is to the
475
00:20:37,679 --> 00:20:41,840
hindu faith
476
00:20:38,829 --> 00:20:43,599
[Music]
477
00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:48,319
the british hindu response was that this
478
00:20:43,599 --> 00:20:49,918
was a eurocentric proposal
479
00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:51,918
it wasn't taking into account the bigger
480
00:20:49,919 --> 00:20:54,159
picture
481
00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:56,880
millions of people use this symbol on a
482
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:56,880
daily basis
483
00:20:57,919 --> 00:21:01,280
what had started out as an anxiety about
484
00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:03,678
nazism
485
00:21:01,279 --> 00:21:06,079
had turned into a fight for religious
486
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:06,080
freedom
487
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,400
if europe wants to be seen as a truly
488
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,720
liberal society
489
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,480
then it has to really be liberal in the
490
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,600
bigger picture
491
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,279
it has to let go of its history maybe to
492
00:21:17,599 --> 00:21:21,599
look at how this symbol
493
00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:23,759
has been used in the world in such a
494
00:21:21,599 --> 00:21:26,719
positive way for thousands of years
495
00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:27,679
compared to the european historical
496
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,919
aberration
497
00:21:27,679 --> 00:21:32,159
that we have that needs to be recognized
498
00:21:29,919 --> 00:21:36,000
but also needs to be balanced
499
00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:39,760
with the bigger picture the reaction
500
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,759
stopped the ban in its tracks
501
00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:45,520
and british hindus were free to display
502
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,279
their sacred symbol once more
503
00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:49,200
but even though it's not illegal in
504
00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:52,038
britain to show the swastika
505
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,279
hindus who do display it sometimes face
506
00:21:52,038 --> 00:21:56,798
misunderstandings
507
00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:58,000
and even insults one of the things about
508
00:21:56,798 --> 00:22:01,279
hindus is we don't
509
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:04,798
always explain ourselves very very well
510
00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:08,079
and children if they take into school
511
00:22:04,798 --> 00:22:10,480
something which displays the swastika if
512
00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:12,720
their friends and even the teachers
513
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,159
don't know the meaning they sometimes
514
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:18,079
get chastised
515
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:21,520
or even worse you know bullied for
516
00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:23,678
being associated with nazism so
517
00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:24,720
barty taylor spends much of her time
518
00:22:23,679 --> 00:22:27,679
teaching children
519
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,279
about hinduism so it's a holy symbol for
520
00:22:27,679 --> 00:22:30,080
us whether you draw it the other way or
521
00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,480
this way
522
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:34,399
for her the key to hindus being able to
523
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,599
show the sign without fear
524
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,679
is knowledge i think that
525
00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,199
we should have more education so that
526
00:22:39,679 --> 00:22:44,798
everybody understands
527
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:48,240
that symbol is meant to be for the good
528
00:22:44,798 --> 00:22:50,879
not an evil symbol
529
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:55,839
but can western european perceptions
530
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,840
really be changed
531
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,240
well where better to start than with the
532
00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:03,320
community for whom the swastika
533
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,359
holds the greatest fears the jews
534
00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,158
[Music]
535
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,959
today josh de bell a member of a london
536
00:23:08,159 --> 00:23:11,039
synagogue
537
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,240
has been invited to the local hindu
538
00:23:11,038 --> 00:23:14,240
temple in nisden
539
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,359
the hindus want to show him the
540
00:23:17,038 --> 00:23:21,279
beautiful rangoli they've created
541
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,119
and to talk to him about their
542
00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:25,440
connection with the swastika
543
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,798
in the hope that he might begin to see
544
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,798
it in a different light
545
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,038
if i saw a swastika on the wall in my
546
00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:35,360
local area
547
00:23:33,038 --> 00:23:36,960
i would report it straight away as an
548
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,158
anti-semitic attack
549
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:43,819
it's uh something that is synonymous
550
00:23:40,159 --> 00:23:46,640
with uh with hate crimes
551
00:23:43,819 --> 00:23:48,240
[Music]
552
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,200
but i can understand that when josh
553
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,558
comes he'll come with some idea of the
554
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,319
swastika
555
00:23:52,558 --> 00:23:56,000
and it'll be interesting to see how he
556
00:23:54,319 --> 00:23:59,839
feels when he does see it
557
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,839
when it's portrayed within the temple
558
00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,919
[Music]
559
00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:06,000
i don't know that much about it as a
560
00:24:03,919 --> 00:24:09,120
hindu symbol
561
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:18,150
so i really hope to learn about
562
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:21,119
what it means to the hindu faith
563
00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:24,150
[Applause]
564
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:26,558
avni is going to show him around
565
00:24:24,150 --> 00:24:29,679
[Music]
566
00:24:26,558 --> 00:24:31,119
hello hello hi josh nice to meet you
567
00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:31,440
nice to meet you too how are you i'm
568
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,359
good
569
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,789
welcome to nathan temple we're very
570
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,399
happy to be here yeah
571
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:38,720
[Music]
572
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:43,038
and the first swastika josh encounters
573
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,038
appears before he even gets inside
574
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,840
the mainstream world like to point out
575
00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:51,278
to you is on the doors
576
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:51,599
and the swastika oh yes and i guess what
577
00:24:51,278 --> 00:24:54,319
it
578
00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:55,038
represents or means here is a sign of
579
00:24:54,319 --> 00:24:57,439
welcome
580
00:24:55,038 --> 00:24:58,240
and it's welcoming and wishing them good
581
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,200
luck as they
582
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,839
enter the temple to pray it's really
583
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,919
interesting
584
00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:05,759
i mean me and my people seeing that
585
00:25:03,919 --> 00:25:08,159
symbol in the past has not really
586
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:10,480
provided me with that as many times as
587
00:25:08,159 --> 00:25:12,799
you can see it yeah yeah
588
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,159
[Music]
589
00:25:12,798 --> 00:25:19,679
how do you feel about it it's
590
00:25:16,159 --> 00:25:21,679
it's it's just a little uh taken aback a
591
00:25:19,679 --> 00:25:23,840
little bit by the uh
592
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:25,360
seeing it like this it's obviously quite
593
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:28,480
different being gold
594
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,719
compared to red and black oh yeah yeah
595
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,599
but it's it's uh it's really really
596
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,200
beautiful
597
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:37,318
are you going in yeah sure
598
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,318
[Music]
599
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,120
the swastikas on the doors had a real
600
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:43,679
impact on josh
601
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,109
and what lies inside is even more
602
00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:46,640
striking
603
00:25:45,109 --> 00:25:49,199
[Music]
604
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,080
how do you feel now seeing seeing this
605
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,519
and this is
606
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:56,158
more in red now oh right
607
00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:57,440
so this is called a rangoli and i guess
608
00:25:56,159 --> 00:25:59,600
it's an expression of
609
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,919
worship and you find it as well at times
610
00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:03,119
of like really big religious occasions
611
00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:05,520
or ceremonies
612
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,399
the swastika represents prosperity and
613
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,798
good luck and
614
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,798
wealth
615
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:13,200
how do you feel like in terms of the
616
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,319
shape or is it
617
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,200
something that's different obviously to
618
00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:19,278
me it's the most
619
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,558
anti-jewish symbol that i've ever seen
620
00:26:19,278 --> 00:26:23,200
in terms of
621
00:26:20,558 --> 00:26:24,079
the death of a lot of my people in my my
622
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,720
religion and
623
00:26:24,079 --> 00:26:27,439
uh i mean it seems a little bit less
624
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,278
harsh
625
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,038
okay yeah because of the cow yeah i
626
00:26:29,278 --> 00:26:34,319
think so see um
627
00:26:31,038 --> 00:26:37,200
when i was growing up i always had this
628
00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:38,240
positive view of swastika so i never
629
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,159
understood
630
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,278
how it could mean something you know
631
00:26:40,159 --> 00:26:43,278
that it may mean to you
632
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:49,038
as josh's visit draws to an end he's got
633
00:26:46,558 --> 00:26:50,558
a lot to think about
634
00:26:49,038 --> 00:26:51,839
i was taking him back on the doors and
635
00:26:50,558 --> 00:26:54,480
taking it back a little bit but now you
636
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,839
talk about it a little bit more
637
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,839
and that's why i think the dialogue is
638
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,639
really really important we talk a lot
639
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:00,399
about what
640
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,679
separates us but hopefully we can use
641
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,960
this symbol to
642
00:27:01,679 --> 00:27:06,640
come together and talk about the things
643
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,640
that we have in common
644
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,679
of knee and josh's experiences of the
645
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,799
swastika
646
00:27:09,679 --> 00:27:15,038
are worlds apart but their meeting
647
00:27:12,798 --> 00:27:17,200
has started to break down long-held
648
00:27:15,038 --> 00:27:19,679
prejudice
649
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,519
it's still very very strange and a
650
00:27:19,679 --> 00:27:24,798
little alien to me
651
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:26,879
but it's actually uh changed some of my
652
00:27:24,798 --> 00:27:31,509
opinions about
653
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,840
the swastika maybe it can be used for
654
00:27:31,509 --> 00:27:34,558
[Music]
655
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:36,480
good
656
00:27:34,558 --> 00:27:38,798
i think josh's visit is like the first
657
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,798
step in the jewish community coming to
658
00:27:38,798 --> 00:27:43,119
understand that the swastika
659
00:27:40,798 --> 00:27:44,158
means so many different things he
660
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,479
understood that
661
00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:47,760
it doesn't necessarily have to mean one
662
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,759
thing
663
00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:52,029
universally it can mean different things
664
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:54,879
for different people
665
00:27:52,029 --> 00:27:56,398
[Music]
666
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,200
i don't know whether the jewish
667
00:27:56,398 --> 00:28:01,278
community will
668
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,120
feel the same way as i do but you know
669
00:28:01,278 --> 00:28:04,319
what hopefully we can really start to
670
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,678
educate ourselves
671
00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,039
that this symbol can be used for
672
00:28:05,679 --> 00:28:13,120
something positive
673
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:15,918
[Music]
674
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,599
perhaps this ancient hindu symbol which
675
00:28:15,919 --> 00:28:19,200
for so long has held such
676
00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:20,798
different meanings for these two
677
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,720
religious communities
678
00:28:20,798 --> 00:28:23,220
might actually bring them closer
679
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,159
together
680
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:28,720
[Music]
681
00:28:26,159 --> 00:28:30,080
and as hindus across britain prepare to
682
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,000
celebrate the valley
683
00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:34,639
the festival that marks the banishment
684
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,278
of darkness and the coming of light
685
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,320
maybe it's a first step towards the
686
00:28:37,278 --> 00:28:41,359
swastika
687
00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:43,439
being reclaimed for good
688
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:44,719
i think over time the swastika will be
689
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,880
redeemed in europe
690
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,798
just because something in one context
691
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,240
looks bad doesn't mean we slam it
692
00:28:48,798 --> 00:28:52,798
we have to look at the bigger picture
693
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,759
always so the change will come
694
00:28:52,798 --> 00:28:55,759
it'll just take time
695
00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:59,918
wouldn't it be nice if one day there are
696
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:02,319
people who saw the swastika being used
697
00:28:59,919 --> 00:29:05,679
in public and said oh i know that symbol
698
00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:09,278
that's a indian symbol and hindus use it
699
00:29:05,679 --> 00:29:10,960
to signify auspiciousness and blessing
700
00:29:09,278 --> 00:29:12,480
and when they later come to see the nazi
701
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,679
use of the symbol they think gosh that's
702
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,720
horrific that's really inappropriate
703
00:29:15,679 --> 00:29:27,840
if we can get to that point then finally
704
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:27,839
hitler will really have been defeated
705
00:29:34,299 --> 00:29:37,838
[Music]
706
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:45,288
um
707
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:45,288
[Music]
47330
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