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CONRAD: Previously on
"The Girl from Plainville"...
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00:00:03,218 --> 00:00:04,965
- I'm going to direct
your attention
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00:00:04,965 --> 00:00:07,092
to July 12th of 2014.
4
00:00:07,092 --> 00:00:09,302
That was the last day
you saw your son alive.
5
00:00:09,302 --> 00:00:10,637
How was he that day?
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00:00:10,637 --> 00:00:11,680
LYNN:
I know my son.
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00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,141
And he didn't want to die.
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00:00:15,141 --> 00:00:16,560
Not that day.
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00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,144
- I'm here because
of Michelle Carter.
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00:00:18,144 --> 00:00:20,939
I don't like seeing
innocent people prosecuted.
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00:00:20,939 --> 00:00:22,732
I want to help this girl.
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00:00:22,732 --> 00:00:24,568
- 48 Hours
wants to talk to me.
13
00:00:24,568 --> 00:00:26,194
- You gonna do it?
-LYNN: He's not just
14
00:00:26,219 --> 00:00:27,779
a dead kid on the news,
you know.
15
00:00:27,779 --> 00:00:29,197
He's Coco.
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00:00:29,197 --> 00:00:30,323
- [sobbing]
Go away.
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00:00:30,323 --> 00:00:31,658
- What's wrong?
18
00:00:31,658 --> 00:00:34,286
- I'm the murderer's sister,
that's what's wrong!
19
00:00:34,286 --> 00:00:35,912
Get the fuck out!
20
00:00:35,912 --> 00:00:37,552
KATIE: Can you read
the highlighted text message
21
00:00:37,577 --> 00:00:38,582
from Michelle?
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00:00:38,582 --> 00:00:40,041
- "Then I am left crying
in bed at night
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00:00:40,041 --> 00:00:41,293
"because I have no one
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00:00:41,293 --> 00:00:43,712
"and I have no plans,
no future.
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00:00:43,712 --> 00:00:45,422
I am nothing."
26
00:00:45,422 --> 00:00:48,842
- If you ever
tell anyone about me,
27
00:00:48,842 --> 00:00:54,639
I will never, ever
fucking talk to you again!
28
00:00:54,639 --> 00:00:55,890
Got it?
29
00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:57,809
[tense music]
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00:00:57,809 --> 00:00:59,352
MICHELLE: Your text
freaked me out.
31
00:00:59,352 --> 00:01:01,146
Call me back.
32
00:01:01,146 --> 00:01:03,106
[phone buzzes]
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00:01:03,106 --> 00:01:09,904
♪ ♪
34
00:01:44,606 --> 00:01:45,940
- I'm sorry.
35
00:01:45,940 --> 00:01:47,609
I didn't know
you cared that much.
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00:01:47,609 --> 00:01:50,236
MICHELLE:
How could you say that?
37
00:01:50,236 --> 00:01:52,655
I don't even have
anybody's number.
38
00:01:52,655 --> 00:01:54,407
If something happened to you,
I wouldn't know who to call.
39
00:01:54,407 --> 00:01:56,242
- I know, I know, I'm--
40
00:01:56,242 --> 00:01:59,329
I'm sorry, okay?
41
00:02:01,289 --> 00:02:02,749
- Is this just a game to you?
42
00:02:02,749 --> 00:02:03,875
- No.
43
00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:11,216
[sighs]
44
00:02:18,431 --> 00:02:20,684
- Then tell me what to do.
45
00:02:20,684 --> 00:02:22,894
CONRAD:
Nothing.
46
00:02:22,894 --> 00:02:25,105
You've done plenty.
47
00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:28,608
- What does that mean?
48
00:02:28,608 --> 00:02:31,152
[tender music]
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00:02:31,152 --> 00:02:33,446
CONRAD:
You've been here for me.
50
00:02:33,446 --> 00:02:35,240
You've listened.
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00:02:37,992 --> 00:02:40,578
It's just not enough.
52
00:02:40,578 --> 00:02:44,833
♪ ♪
53
00:02:44,833 --> 00:02:46,960
I'm never satisfied.
54
00:02:49,587 --> 00:02:51,756
I'm stuck.
55
00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:53,758
In my own little reality,
56
00:02:53,758 --> 00:02:57,637
and I thought everything
was good, but...
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00:02:59,347 --> 00:03:00,849
It's not.
58
00:03:04,936 --> 00:03:07,981
- I'm not going to leave you.
59
00:03:07,981 --> 00:03:10,442
You need me.
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00:03:13,737 --> 00:03:15,989
Stay.
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00:03:20,744 --> 00:03:23,288
Conrad?
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00:03:23,288 --> 00:03:30,253
♪ ♪
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00:03:42,557 --> 00:03:44,976
- Carter has waived
her right to a jury trial,
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00:03:44,976 --> 00:03:47,020
which means
the judge alone will decide
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00:03:47,020 --> 00:03:48,438
whether or not she is guilty.
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00:03:48,438 --> 00:03:52,567
If convicted, she faces
up to 20 years in prison.
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00:03:52,567 --> 00:03:53,735
CATALDO:
Could you please describe
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00:03:53,735 --> 00:03:55,195
your educational background?
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00:03:55,195 --> 00:03:56,905
BREGGIN:
I went to Harvard
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00:03:56,905 --> 00:03:59,324
and Case Western Reserve
Medical School,
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00:03:59,324 --> 00:04:02,827
researching the
psychophysiology of anxiety.
72
00:04:02,827 --> 00:04:05,371
- And can you please
list and describe
73
00:04:05,371 --> 00:04:07,040
your professional activities?
74
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,708
- Oh, golly.
75
00:04:08,708 --> 00:04:09,959
There's a lot of them.
76
00:04:09,959 --> 00:04:11,878
I have been
practicing psychiatry
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00:04:11,878 --> 00:04:14,005
full time since 1968.
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00:04:14,005 --> 00:04:15,465
I teach.
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00:04:15,465 --> 00:04:20,470
I have a subspecialty
in clinical psychopharmacology.
80
00:04:20,470 --> 00:04:21,846
- And what is that?
81
00:04:21,846 --> 00:04:24,224
- It's the study
of the effect of drugs
82
00:04:24,224 --> 00:04:27,811
on the actual clinical,
real-life behavior of people.
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00:04:27,811 --> 00:04:29,646
- And have you given
any presentations
84
00:04:29,646 --> 00:04:31,564
for any governmental bodies?
85
00:04:31,564 --> 00:04:33,566
BREGGIN: Yes.
86
00:04:33,566 --> 00:04:34,651
- Well,
thank you for carving out
87
00:04:34,651 --> 00:04:36,027
some time with us today,
Dr. Breggin.
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00:04:36,027 --> 00:04:37,529
You're quite a busy man.
89
00:04:37,529 --> 00:04:39,572
- Of course.
Thank you for the invitation.
90
00:04:39,572 --> 00:04:40,740
- Your Honor.
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00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:42,867
- Move it along.
CATALDO: [clears throat]
92
00:04:42,867 --> 00:04:44,410
Uh, Dr. Breggin,
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00:04:44,410 --> 00:04:47,747
for our non-medical experts
in the room,
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00:04:47,747 --> 00:04:51,251
could you illustrate, uh,
for us what an SSRI is
95
00:04:51,251 --> 00:04:53,086
and how it affects the brain?
96
00:04:53,086 --> 00:04:57,131
BREGGIN: The SSRI is
a selective
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00:04:57,131 --> 00:04:59,384
serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
98
00:04:59,384 --> 00:05:01,469
- And what is serotonin?
99
00:05:01,469 --> 00:05:04,055
- Serotonin
is a neurotransmitter
100
00:05:04,055 --> 00:05:06,724
that originates deep
in the brain.
101
00:05:06,724 --> 00:05:10,103
It can affect our judgment,
102
00:05:10,103 --> 00:05:15,149
love, and empathy.
103
00:05:15,149 --> 00:05:19,696
When serotonin is naturally
created by the brain,
104
00:05:19,696 --> 00:05:23,032
these--these receptors fire.
105
00:05:23,032 --> 00:05:26,828
And the idea behind people
who are depressed or--or angry
106
00:05:26,828 --> 00:05:31,040
is that maybe the feed
to the receptor gets backed up.
107
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,459
The brain isn't doing its job.
108
00:05:33,459 --> 00:05:35,503
- Right,
and the SSRI, it--what?
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00:05:35,503 --> 00:05:36,754
BREGGIN: The SSRI,
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00:05:36,754 --> 00:05:40,466
like Prozac and all SSRIs,
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00:05:40,466 --> 00:05:44,554
blocks the removal
of serotonin.
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00:05:44,554 --> 00:05:47,056
And unfortunately,
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00:05:47,056 --> 00:05:49,267
this is very unstable
114
00:05:49,267 --> 00:05:54,105
because the brain reacts
to this as a toxic intrusion.
115
00:05:54,105 --> 00:05:58,484
- And how does the brain
react to this toxic intrusion?
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00:05:58,484 --> 00:06:01,070
BREGGIN:
After the first dose even,
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00:06:01,070 --> 00:06:04,240
the brain stops
producing serotonin.
118
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,618
- So instead
of creating a clear pathway
119
00:06:06,618 --> 00:06:10,413
for the serotonin
to enter the brain,
120
00:06:10,413 --> 00:06:14,208
Prozac and other SSRIs
can actually halt
121
00:06:14,208 --> 00:06:16,336
the natural production
of serotonin entirely?
122
00:06:16,336 --> 00:06:18,880
- Yes, it's possible.
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00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,924
Oh.
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00:06:20,924 --> 00:06:26,054
- Does the FDA identify
the SSRIs in a specific way?
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00:06:26,054 --> 00:06:29,265
- They developed a
black box warning that remains
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00:06:29,265 --> 00:06:33,019
the highest level class warning
for all of these drugs.
127
00:06:33,019 --> 00:06:35,063
- Does Celexa have
a black box warning?
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00:06:35,063 --> 00:06:37,190
- Yes, it does.
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00:06:37,190 --> 00:06:39,442
CATALDO:
And do you know specifically
130
00:06:39,442 --> 00:06:43,112
what the black box warning
is on Celexa?
131
00:06:43,112 --> 00:06:46,324
- The black box warning
specifically says
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00:06:46,324 --> 00:06:49,661
that there's
an increased risk of suicide
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00:06:49,661 --> 00:06:53,456
in people aged 24 and younger.
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00:06:53,456 --> 00:06:54,791
CATALDO:
And to the best
of your knowledge,
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00:06:54,791 --> 00:06:56,793
was Conrad Roy III
136
00:06:56,793 --> 00:06:59,253
on Celexa
at the time of his death?
137
00:06:59,253 --> 00:07:02,048
- Yes, he was.
138
00:07:02,048 --> 00:07:04,634
[pensive music]
139
00:07:04,634 --> 00:07:08,721
CATALDO:
Thank you.
No further questions.
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00:07:08,721 --> 00:07:10,682
MONIZ:
We'll break for lunch.
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00:07:14,602 --> 00:07:17,605
[upbeat music playing
on radio]
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00:07:17,605 --> 00:07:22,151
♪ ♪
143
00:07:22,151 --> 00:07:23,695
- Am I really selfish?
144
00:07:25,905 --> 00:07:27,407
- No.
145
00:07:27,407 --> 00:07:29,075
Why?
146
00:07:29,075 --> 00:07:31,411
- Well, for wanting
to kill myself so bad
147
00:07:31,411 --> 00:07:34,997
and dragging you along
with all this.
148
00:07:34,997 --> 00:07:37,041
- No.
149
00:07:37,041 --> 00:07:38,918
You're not selfish.
150
00:07:38,918 --> 00:07:40,586
Don't ever think that.
151
00:07:42,463 --> 00:07:44,507
And you're not
dragging me along.
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00:07:45,925 --> 00:07:47,385
I chose to stay.
153
00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:50,972
- I don't want to fail again.
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00:07:50,972 --> 00:07:52,807
That's what I'm scared of.
155
00:07:52,807 --> 00:07:55,518
- Obviously, you don't
really want to die then.
156
00:07:55,518 --> 00:07:58,771
Because you wouldn't
be scared to try.
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00:07:58,771 --> 00:08:02,108
You'd want to try anything
as much as you could.
158
00:08:06,487 --> 00:08:08,823
- I guess
you're partially right.
159
00:08:10,742 --> 00:08:13,202
I'm just still
researching and hoping that
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00:08:13,202 --> 00:08:15,747
I find a better way.
161
00:08:15,747 --> 00:08:17,623
- I am so right.
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00:08:23,671 --> 00:08:26,924
Part of me wants you
to try something and then fail.
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00:08:29,343 --> 00:08:32,513
Just so you could go get help.
164
00:08:37,935 --> 00:08:40,021
I love you.
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00:08:41,022 --> 00:08:42,565
Say it back.
166
00:08:45,777 --> 00:08:47,862
- I love you too.
167
00:08:47,862 --> 00:08:49,322
[knock at door]
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- I'm gonna turn in.
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CONRAD:
Okay.
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00:08:55,745 --> 00:08:57,538
- You good?
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00:08:57,538 --> 00:08:59,957
- Yeah, I'm good.
172
00:09:01,292 --> 00:09:03,336
- Don't stay up too late, okay?
173
00:09:06,506 --> 00:09:09,509
[indistinct chatter]
174
00:09:11,427 --> 00:09:13,471
- Hey.
175
00:09:13,471 --> 00:09:15,014
Can I get a beer?
176
00:09:19,602 --> 00:09:21,562
[sighs]
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00:09:22,647 --> 00:09:24,232
- Is it over?
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00:09:24,232 --> 00:09:27,068
- Lunch.
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00:09:27,068 --> 00:09:29,612
Thank you.
[bottle clinks]
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00:09:34,534 --> 00:09:35,952
[sighs]
181
00:09:40,081 --> 00:09:42,750
Some of this stuff
this doctor's saying...
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00:09:44,377 --> 00:09:46,879
We thought we'd be doing
the right thing.
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00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:48,381
Right?
184
00:09:49,841 --> 00:09:51,050
- Yeah.
185
00:09:52,009 --> 00:09:53,302
CO:
Yeah.
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00:09:54,846 --> 00:09:57,265
I don't know.
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00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:06,774
LYNN:
You know what
I can't stop thinking about?
188
00:10:06,774 --> 00:10:07,775
- What?
189
00:10:10,194 --> 00:10:13,072
- The fucking guacamole.
- [chuckles]
190
00:10:13,072 --> 00:10:14,282
- I mean, how the hell
has this kid
191
00:10:14,282 --> 00:10:16,492
never had guacamole before?
192
00:10:16,492 --> 00:10:18,786
- [chuckles]
193
00:10:18,786 --> 00:10:21,622
Well, I mean, it's not like
we're known for it here.
194
00:10:21,622 --> 00:10:22,832
- Fair.
195
00:10:26,961 --> 00:10:28,629
Your mom says you're running.
196
00:10:28,629 --> 00:10:30,464
CO:
You even talked to my mom?
197
00:10:30,464 --> 00:10:32,758
- Yeah, you sent her over
to check on me.
198
00:10:34,677 --> 00:10:37,680
- I just didn't like the idea
of you being alone, that's all.
199
00:10:45,813 --> 00:10:49,483
I'm training
for the Boston Marathon.
200
00:10:49,483 --> 00:10:50,860
- You?
201
00:10:50,860 --> 00:10:51,986
CO:
Yeah?
202
00:10:51,986 --> 00:10:54,071
- You who drives two blocks.
203
00:10:54,071 --> 00:10:56,866
- I who used to
drive two blocks.
204
00:10:56,866 --> 00:10:59,327
- They say it makes
your nipples bleed.
205
00:10:59,327 --> 00:11:01,329
- [chuckles]
206
00:11:03,289 --> 00:11:04,874
They're not lying.
207
00:11:04,874 --> 00:11:06,500
LYNN:
[groans]
208
00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:08,044
Hot.
- [chuckles]
209
00:11:10,755 --> 00:11:13,382
I'm doing it
for suicide awareness.
210
00:11:13,382 --> 00:11:14,717
Running it, I mean.
211
00:11:14,717 --> 00:11:19,013
You know, raising money for it.
212
00:11:23,309 --> 00:11:24,769
- That's good, Co.
213
00:11:24,769 --> 00:11:25,978
CO:
Yeah.
214
00:11:29,232 --> 00:11:31,359
- He'd be real proud.
215
00:11:47,917 --> 00:11:49,710
CONRAD: I tried drinking
all the water I could,
216
00:11:49,710 --> 00:11:52,630
but nothing happened.
217
00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:54,382
- What the fuck is that?
218
00:11:54,382 --> 00:11:56,175
Why didn't you
tell me you tried?
219
00:11:56,175 --> 00:11:58,552
All of a sudden, you're trying
and serious about it?
220
00:11:58,552 --> 00:12:00,721
- I'm sorry,
I want to tell you the truth,
221
00:12:00,721 --> 00:12:04,934
but I don't want to scare you.
222
00:12:04,934 --> 00:12:07,478
- I want you to always
tell me the truth.
223
00:12:07,478 --> 00:12:09,689
Never be sorry about it.
224
00:12:13,359 --> 00:12:15,653
- I want it to look
like an accident.
225
00:12:15,653 --> 00:12:16,904
[somber music]
226
00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:18,656
- Why?
227
00:12:18,656 --> 00:12:20,783
CONRAD:
Well, I'd like people
228
00:12:20,783 --> 00:12:25,162
to think that
and not feel guilty.
229
00:12:25,162 --> 00:12:29,041
♪ ♪
230
00:12:29,041 --> 00:12:30,251
Can I tell you something?
231
00:12:30,251 --> 00:12:32,211
MICHELLE:
Of course.
232
00:12:35,464 --> 00:12:36,716
- There's nothing anyone can do
233
00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:40,094
that's gonna make me
want to live.
234
00:12:40,094 --> 00:12:41,304
[splash]
235
00:12:41,304 --> 00:12:42,722
NATALIE:
Come on!
236
00:12:42,722 --> 00:12:43,973
Come in!
237
00:12:43,973 --> 00:12:46,809
[upbeat music playing]
238
00:12:46,809 --> 00:12:48,853
You okay?
239
00:12:48,853 --> 00:12:50,563
MICHELLE:
I can't really talk about it.
240
00:12:50,563 --> 00:12:53,149
- That doesn't sound good.
241
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:55,568
CASSIE:
"Ooh, Constantine!
242
00:12:55,568 --> 00:12:57,361
I love you, Constantine."
243
00:12:57,361 --> 00:12:58,988
- Give it back, Cassie--
- You guys write love letters.
244
00:12:58,988 --> 00:13:00,239
- Ooh, does he
send you dick pics?
245
00:13:00,239 --> 00:13:01,574
- I said give it back!
246
00:13:01,574 --> 00:13:03,159
- Jesus Christ, fine.
247
00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:04,368
I'm just playing.
248
00:13:04,368 --> 00:13:06,203
- This is life
and death, Cassie.
249
00:13:06,203 --> 00:13:08,331
♪ ♪
250
00:13:08,331 --> 00:13:10,958
[indistinct chatter]
251
00:13:10,958 --> 00:13:13,961
[birdsong]
252
00:13:13,961 --> 00:13:15,588
NATALIE:
Hey.
253
00:13:15,588 --> 00:13:17,673
I'm sorry about Cassie.
254
00:13:17,673 --> 00:13:19,425
She was--
MICHELLE: Can be a bitch.
255
00:13:21,010 --> 00:13:22,678
- Sometimes.
256
00:13:22,678 --> 00:13:25,264
- [exhales sharply]
Now he's not responding.
257
00:13:25,264 --> 00:13:26,849
- Conrad?
258
00:13:28,851 --> 00:13:30,519
Talk to me.
-MICHELLE: [sniffles]
259
00:13:32,438 --> 00:13:34,482
NATALIE:
You can trust me.
260
00:13:34,482 --> 00:13:36,192
- Can I?
261
00:13:36,192 --> 00:13:38,277
NATALIE:
Of course.
262
00:13:38,277 --> 00:13:40,279
I'm here for you.
263
00:13:44,033 --> 00:13:47,036
[foreboding music]
264
00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:49,622
♪ ♪
265
00:13:49,622 --> 00:13:52,458
- God, he's so messed up.
266
00:13:52,458 --> 00:13:59,423
♪ ♪
267
00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:04,386
He'll only talk to me
about things,
268
00:14:04,386 --> 00:14:08,390
and he said that he won't
be with me anymore
269
00:14:08,390 --> 00:14:10,226
if I tell anyone.
270
00:14:10,226 --> 00:14:13,270
So you have
to promise me, okay?
271
00:14:13,270 --> 00:14:14,980
You can't tell anyone, Natalie.
272
00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:16,190
Seriously.
273
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:17,191
You have to promise.
274
00:14:17,191 --> 00:14:18,317
- Of course.
275
00:14:18,317 --> 00:14:20,111
Of course,
I won't say anything.
276
00:14:20,111 --> 00:14:23,280
♪ ♪
277
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,324
Is there anything I can do?
278
00:14:28,661 --> 00:14:29,745
- [sighs]
279
00:14:29,745 --> 00:14:31,497
Oh, it's just...
280
00:14:31,497 --> 00:14:33,499
I don't even know
where to begin.
281
00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:39,463
CATALDO:
What information did you review
282
00:14:39,463 --> 00:14:41,090
in connection to this case?
283
00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:43,008
BREGGIN:
Every available medical record
284
00:14:43,008 --> 00:14:45,177
for Michelle and Conrad.
285
00:14:45,177 --> 00:14:49,515
I evaluated
every available text, uh,
286
00:14:49,515 --> 00:14:52,017
or phone or Facebook message
for both people.
287
00:14:52,017 --> 00:14:55,312
I interviewed
a half a dozen people
288
00:14:55,312 --> 00:14:58,023
in great detail
who knew Michelle.
289
00:14:58,023 --> 00:15:00,192
- And--and why the interviews?
290
00:15:00,192 --> 00:15:03,028
- I needed to get, uh,
a baseline
291
00:15:03,028 --> 00:15:04,989
for Michelle's behavior.
292
00:15:04,989 --> 00:15:08,492
Was Michelle known to do
mean, angry, hostile things?
293
00:15:08,492 --> 00:15:12,371
Before age 12 was key for me
because at 12,
294
00:15:12,371 --> 00:15:16,917
she begins to develop anorexia
and is put on Prozac,
295
00:15:16,917 --> 00:15:19,253
and she's then medicated
off and on
296
00:15:19,253 --> 00:15:21,589
for her entire adolescence.
297
00:15:21,589 --> 00:15:24,383
CATALDO:
And did that have
any significance for you
298
00:15:24,383 --> 00:15:30,055
ultimately in forming
certain opinions on this case?
299
00:15:30,055 --> 00:15:32,683
- It shows that
she's a very vulnerable person
300
00:15:32,683 --> 00:15:34,768
who does very severe cutting
of herself
301
00:15:34,768 --> 00:15:37,563
in order to control her pain.
302
00:15:37,563 --> 00:15:39,273
CATALDO:
And did the text messages
303
00:15:39,273 --> 00:15:42,234
between Michelle Carter
and Conrad Roy
304
00:15:42,234 --> 00:15:44,195
have any relevance
or significance
305
00:15:44,195 --> 00:15:47,031
to your clinical analysis
of the case?
306
00:15:47,031 --> 00:15:48,032
BREGGIN:
Oh, yes.
307
00:15:48,032 --> 00:15:51,035
He's a very distressed
young man
308
00:15:51,035 --> 00:15:52,786
who has a lot
of family conflict
309
00:15:52,786 --> 00:15:56,832
that, uh, he's dealing with,
and he is constantly
310
00:15:56,832 --> 00:15:59,835
telling Michelle that
he's gonna kill himself
311
00:15:59,835 --> 00:16:01,712
and there's nothing she can do.
312
00:16:01,712 --> 00:16:03,589
And this goes on and on
313
00:16:03,589 --> 00:16:08,844
for hours and hours
and months and months of text.
314
00:16:08,844 --> 00:16:13,390
And she gets more
and more desperate.
315
00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:16,268
And this boy that she loves
316
00:16:16,268 --> 00:16:19,188
says that he's going
to kill himself
317
00:16:19,188 --> 00:16:22,358
and that he's even got plans.
318
00:16:22,358 --> 00:16:26,070
This is an intolerable position
for her to be in.
319
00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:29,031
- Doctor.
[clears throat]
320
00:16:29,031 --> 00:16:33,369
What is
involuntary intoxication?
321
00:16:33,369 --> 00:16:36,330
BREGGIN:
It means that
there's a disruption
322
00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:38,707
in the neurochemistry
of the brain
323
00:16:38,707 --> 00:16:41,919
where intoxication
is observable
324
00:16:41,919 --> 00:16:46,423
through thoughts
and behaviors, activities.
325
00:16:46,423 --> 00:16:48,717
And during an intoxication,
326
00:16:48,717 --> 00:16:52,137
the person generally
has loss of judgment,
327
00:16:52,137 --> 00:16:54,640
maybe confusion,
328
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,893
and often
loss of memory of the event.
329
00:16:57,893 --> 00:17:00,062
CATALDO:
And how do you
analyze and determine
330
00:17:00,062 --> 00:17:03,148
if someone is involuntarily
intoxicated by drugs?
331
00:17:03,148 --> 00:17:05,109
BREGGIN:
Well, first,
332
00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:07,111
you need to know,
can the drug do this?
333
00:17:07,111 --> 00:17:08,904
Does Celexa?
334
00:17:08,904 --> 00:17:11,991
Do all SSRIs cause marked
changes in behavior?
335
00:17:11,991 --> 00:17:13,784
Yes.
336
00:17:13,784 --> 00:17:17,538
And when SSRIs
cause abnormal reactions,
337
00:17:17,538 --> 00:17:21,083
which involuntary intoxication
is the extreme,
338
00:17:21,083 --> 00:17:25,212
they cause agitation,
anxiety, um,
339
00:17:25,212 --> 00:17:27,631
panic, irritability,
340
00:17:27,631 --> 00:17:31,510
and a dramatic, sometimes
instant, shift in behavior.
341
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:33,554
It's in the diagnostic manual.
342
00:17:33,554 --> 00:17:35,055
[suspenseful music]
343
00:17:35,055 --> 00:17:36,223
CATALDO:
And specifically,
344
00:17:36,223 --> 00:17:38,684
as to Michelle,
do you have an opinion
345
00:17:38,684 --> 00:17:42,062
as to whether or not she was
involuntarily intoxicated?
346
00:17:42,062 --> 00:17:45,608
- Yes, I do. Yes, she was.
347
00:17:45,608 --> 00:17:49,028
There's a significant change
in her behavior
348
00:17:49,028 --> 00:17:51,530
about 11 days
before Conrad's suicide
349
00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:53,115
on July 12th.
350
00:17:53,115 --> 00:17:54,658
CATALDO:
And as a result of this
351
00:17:54,658 --> 00:17:58,704
involuntary intoxication
suffered by Michelle Carter,
352
00:17:58,704 --> 00:18:00,539
do you have an opinion
as to whether or not
353
00:18:00,539 --> 00:18:02,958
she was able to conform
her actions and conduct
354
00:18:02,958 --> 00:18:05,669
to the requirements of the law?
355
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:07,630
- She couldn't.
356
00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:10,507
She was enmeshed in a delusion
357
00:18:10,507 --> 00:18:15,554
where she was thinking it was
a good thing to help him die,
358
00:18:15,554 --> 00:18:18,891
that she could mitigate
the circumstances,
359
00:18:18,891 --> 00:18:21,268
reassure him that he was
going to heaven,
360
00:18:21,268 --> 00:18:25,522
and that she could then go
to his family and help them
361
00:18:25,522 --> 00:18:28,359
to mourn less severely.
362
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,986
CATALDO:
And are you able to pinpoint,
363
00:18:30,986 --> 00:18:33,989
in your opinion, of course,
around
364
00:18:33,989 --> 00:18:38,661
when Michelle became
involuntarily intoxicated?
365
00:18:38,661 --> 00:18:41,413
BREGGIN:
On or about July 2nd,
366
00:18:41,413 --> 00:18:44,041
she begins to help him
go to heaven.
367
00:18:44,041 --> 00:18:51,006
♪ ♪
368
00:18:58,222 --> 00:19:02,059
- I don't know if it's
bad or good that you
369
00:19:02,059 --> 00:19:04,061
understand me this way.
370
00:19:07,731 --> 00:19:11,610
If I do end up...
371
00:19:13,237 --> 00:19:15,030
Dying...
372
00:19:17,574 --> 00:19:20,202
I don't...
373
00:19:20,202 --> 00:19:22,079
want to go to hell.
374
00:19:23,789 --> 00:19:26,083
I don't belong there.
375
00:19:27,167 --> 00:19:30,045
- You won't go to hell.
376
00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:32,339
I promise you.
377
00:19:32,339 --> 00:19:35,300
Heaven needs a hero.
378
00:19:40,931 --> 00:19:42,850
- You're gonna help me
with this tomorrow.
379
00:19:45,394 --> 00:19:47,688
- With what?
380
00:19:50,441 --> 00:19:54,737
- I've been reading
about it on the internet.
381
00:19:54,737 --> 00:19:58,407
I've been talking
to people online about it.
382
00:19:58,407 --> 00:19:59,908
- Talking to who?
383
00:19:59,908 --> 00:20:01,285
CONRAD: I don't know,
384
00:20:01,285 --> 00:20:04,163
it's the internet.
[chuckles]
385
00:20:07,124 --> 00:20:09,710
- Are you really sure
you're gonna do this?
386
00:20:17,593 --> 00:20:23,015
- I'm going to try again.
387
00:20:23,015 --> 00:20:25,267
When I'm home.
388
00:20:26,643 --> 00:20:28,061
Tomorrow.
389
00:20:35,819 --> 00:20:38,113
- Promise me something.
390
00:20:39,698 --> 00:20:42,075
- Sure.
391
00:20:42,075 --> 00:20:44,912
- Say goodbye before you do it.
392
00:20:44,912 --> 00:20:46,663
CONRAD:
Of course.
393
00:20:50,667 --> 00:20:52,252
NATALIE:
How's he doing?
394
00:20:55,923 --> 00:20:57,299
- Not good.
395
00:20:57,299 --> 00:20:59,968
- Yeah.
396
00:20:59,968 --> 00:21:03,347
- It's a good thing
you're doing.
397
00:21:03,347 --> 00:21:04,723
Seriously.
398
00:21:04,723 --> 00:21:06,725
He's really lucky
to have a friend like you.
399
00:21:11,522 --> 00:21:13,273
- Girlfriend.
400
00:21:13,273 --> 00:21:14,358
CASSIE:
Right.
401
00:21:14,358 --> 00:21:16,527
Girlfriend.
[chuckles]
402
00:21:16,527 --> 00:21:19,530
[eerie music]
403
00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:20,697
♪ ♪
404
00:21:20,697 --> 00:21:22,616
- Thanks, Cassie.
405
00:21:22,616 --> 00:21:29,623
♪ ♪
406
00:21:34,753 --> 00:21:36,129
CONRAD: Some things
I've been doing is
407
00:21:36,129 --> 00:21:39,967
trying to realize that
it's not realistic.
408
00:21:39,967 --> 00:21:41,844
What's going on in my head
409
00:21:41,844 --> 00:21:44,888
that keeps on
piling and piling?
410
00:21:44,888 --> 00:21:47,683
- He wanted to excel.
411
00:21:47,683 --> 00:21:52,813
He just wanted to be this,
like, great person.
412
00:21:52,813 --> 00:21:55,983
And in my eyes,
he was all that.
413
00:21:55,983 --> 00:21:57,609
He was rough on himself.
414
00:21:57,609 --> 00:22:00,654
He really, really struggled
415
00:22:00,654 --> 00:22:05,701
with just disappointing,
I think, my husband and me.
416
00:22:05,701 --> 00:22:08,203
[pensive music]
417
00:22:08,203 --> 00:22:13,250
I don't understand
why you would want
418
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:18,130
someone that was
so beautiful inside and out
419
00:22:18,130 --> 00:22:19,673
that had so much,
420
00:22:19,673 --> 00:22:23,719
that was
such a kind person to die.
421
00:22:26,513 --> 00:22:28,432
INTERVIEWER:
How do you describe
422
00:22:28,432 --> 00:22:31,101
what this young woman did?
423
00:22:31,101 --> 00:22:32,978
- I cannot.
424
00:22:32,978 --> 00:22:36,857
Only--only she can.
425
00:22:42,613 --> 00:22:45,657
TERESA:
Had to fight off a nurse
for a cruller.
426
00:22:45,657 --> 00:22:47,951
Worth it.
427
00:22:47,951 --> 00:22:52,164
Any bright ideas in
the half hour I've been gone?
428
00:22:52,164 --> 00:22:53,832
KATIE: No.
429
00:22:54,958 --> 00:22:56,668
I don't know how to get him.
430
00:22:56,668 --> 00:22:59,713
I--you saw, Moniz loves him.
431
00:22:59,713 --> 00:23:01,840
He trusts him.
432
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,467
None of this was in the report.
433
00:23:03,467 --> 00:23:07,804
Nothing about cutting or--
or "involuntary intoxication."
434
00:23:07,804 --> 00:23:10,474
I mean,
what the hell even is that?
435
00:23:10,474 --> 00:23:13,477
I can't prepare overnight.
436
00:23:13,477 --> 00:23:14,728
TERESA:
Well, maybe that's it.
437
00:23:14,728 --> 00:23:17,606
I mean, he didn't say
any of it in the report.
438
00:23:19,066 --> 00:23:21,485
Gonna have to get him
to bury himself.
439
00:23:25,030 --> 00:23:26,865
KATIE: You said during
your direct examination
440
00:23:26,865 --> 00:23:28,909
that the defendant
had been cutting, correct?
441
00:23:28,909 --> 00:23:31,328
- Yes.
442
00:23:31,328 --> 00:23:33,956
- Would you agree with me
that your initial
443
00:23:33,956 --> 00:23:35,624
60 or so page report
444
00:23:35,624 --> 00:23:38,627
didn't mention
anything about that, correct?
445
00:23:38,627 --> 00:23:40,879
- Correct.
I didn't have those texts.
446
00:23:40,879 --> 00:23:42,255
KATIE: Would it be
fair to say that
447
00:23:42,255 --> 00:23:45,968
her mother never reported
any concern about cutting?
448
00:23:45,968 --> 00:23:49,346
BREGGIN:
I didn't interview Mom
in that depth.
449
00:23:49,346 --> 00:23:50,889
- May I approach, Your Honor?
450
00:23:50,889 --> 00:23:53,141
MONIZ:
Mm-hmm.
451
00:23:53,141 --> 00:23:56,353
KATIE:
Didn't you write here,
452
00:23:56,353 --> 00:23:57,854
page 60,
453
00:23:57,854 --> 00:24:01,066
"Michelle's mother cannot
recall any bizarre behavior
454
00:24:01,066 --> 00:24:04,695
"on Michelle's part
at any time of her life,
455
00:24:04,695 --> 00:24:08,156
including during the period
of the alleged crime."
456
00:24:09,616 --> 00:24:11,201
- Yes.
457
00:24:11,201 --> 00:24:13,996
- So you at least talked
to her a little bit.
458
00:24:13,996 --> 00:24:15,747
- Yes.
459
00:24:15,747 --> 00:24:17,290
- And in that conversation,
460
00:24:17,290 --> 00:24:21,920
she did not report any concerns
about her daughter at all.
461
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,673
BREGGIN:
No, she didn't.
462
00:24:24,673 --> 00:24:27,050
- The information that
you had about her cutting
463
00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:30,137
was based on text messages
with her friends?
464
00:24:30,137 --> 00:24:31,763
BREGGIN:
Yes.
465
00:24:31,763 --> 00:24:33,932
KATIE:
And now, of course, when you
looked at these messages
466
00:24:33,932 --> 00:24:36,893
where she was talking about
how severely she cut herself,
467
00:24:36,893 --> 00:24:38,895
you would also look
at other messages
468
00:24:38,895 --> 00:24:41,773
she sent to other people
contemporaneously?
469
00:24:41,773 --> 00:24:44,651
- Yes, she often sent
different messages
470
00:24:44,651 --> 00:24:46,319
to different people.
471
00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:48,530
- And it would be
significant to you
472
00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:52,451
if, uh, she was simultaneously
texting one person
473
00:24:52,451 --> 00:24:54,369
that she was cut so badly,
474
00:24:54,369 --> 00:24:56,288
she had to go
to the emergency room
475
00:24:56,288 --> 00:24:58,290
and then a moment later,
texting a boy
476
00:24:58,290 --> 00:24:59,833
something completely different.
477
00:24:59,833 --> 00:25:01,668
BREGGIN:
Yes, she did that a lot
478
00:25:01,668 --> 00:25:03,462
about a lot
of different things.
479
00:25:03,462 --> 00:25:04,755
KATIE:
Yes.
480
00:25:04,755 --> 00:25:07,340
But in these texts,
481
00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:09,760
she is claiming that
she's talking to her mother
482
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,387
about going to the hospital,
correct?
483
00:25:12,387 --> 00:25:14,431
- Yes.
484
00:25:14,431 --> 00:25:16,600
KATIE:
Isn't it true that
at the initial outset
485
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,269
of your involvement
in this case,
486
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:22,522
you did not diagnose
the defendant as depressed?
487
00:25:22,522 --> 00:25:25,192
- Well, yes,
that was the knowledge
488
00:25:25,192 --> 00:25:27,944
I had at the time.
489
00:25:27,944 --> 00:25:29,571
- You were wrong?
490
00:25:29,571 --> 00:25:31,073
- Oh, golly, yeah.
491
00:25:31,073 --> 00:25:34,201
- You completely
misdiagnosed the defendant?
492
00:25:34,201 --> 00:25:35,744
- No.
-KATIE: Well--
493
00:25:35,744 --> 00:25:38,622
I'm sorry, uh, you said
she wasn't depressed,
494
00:25:38,622 --> 00:25:40,791
and now you're saying she is?
495
00:25:40,791 --> 00:25:44,002
- I literally did not
have enough information.
496
00:25:44,002 --> 00:25:47,756
And I didn't know that I didn't
have very much information.
497
00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:50,550
- Oh, but when you
talked to the defendant...
498
00:25:52,177 --> 00:25:54,554
- I never talked
to the defendant.
499
00:25:54,554 --> 00:25:58,308
[suspenseful music]
500
00:25:58,308 --> 00:26:02,187
♪ ♪
501
00:26:02,187 --> 00:26:04,231
- How many times
have you formed the opinion
502
00:26:04,231 --> 00:26:08,652
that a patient or someone
you've been asked to examine,
503
00:26:08,652 --> 00:26:12,572
uh, is involuntarily
intoxicated?
504
00:26:12,572 --> 00:26:15,367
BREGGIN:
Golly, maybe...
505
00:26:15,367 --> 00:26:18,745
40 times
over the last 20 years?
506
00:26:18,745 --> 00:26:20,288
It's really a wild guess.
507
00:26:22,707 --> 00:26:24,626
- A wild guess.
508
00:26:24,626 --> 00:26:26,711
So one of the things
you need to do
509
00:26:26,711 --> 00:26:29,589
in forming a baseline
is determining if the behavior
510
00:26:29,589 --> 00:26:33,760
during the period in question
is of stark contrast
511
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,930
to his or her normal behavior,
correct?
512
00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:38,306
- Yes.
513
00:26:38,306 --> 00:26:41,268
- Would you agree with me that
if your baseline is off,
514
00:26:41,268 --> 00:26:43,478
it could greatly affect
your opinion?
515
00:26:43,478 --> 00:26:46,606
- That's why I
carefully rechecked my opinion
516
00:26:46,606 --> 00:26:49,901
and found that everything
in there reconfirmed
517
00:26:49,901 --> 00:26:52,779
the date she had the breakdown
of the intoxication.
518
00:26:54,072 --> 00:26:58,451
- Right, you--you were saying
that happened on, uh, July 2nd?
519
00:26:58,451 --> 00:26:59,744
- Yes.
520
00:26:59,744 --> 00:27:03,165
- It's important that
it happened on July 2nd
521
00:27:03,165 --> 00:27:05,417
because it shows
that she had a break.
522
00:27:05,417 --> 00:27:09,296
She behaved one way
on July 1st and on July 2nd,
523
00:27:09,296 --> 00:27:11,756
she behaved entirely
differently
524
00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:13,925
because of the intoxication,
525
00:27:13,925 --> 00:27:15,677
and it was completely
out of her control.
526
00:27:15,677 --> 00:27:17,554
Do--do I have that right?
527
00:27:17,554 --> 00:27:18,889
BREGGIN:
Yes.
528
00:27:18,889 --> 00:27:24,102
♪ ♪
529
00:27:24,102 --> 00:27:29,190
- Uh, "What about hanging
yourself or stabbing yourself?
530
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:31,818
"What about overdosing
on sleeping pills
531
00:27:31,818 --> 00:27:34,863
"or suffocating
with a plastic bag?
532
00:27:34,863 --> 00:27:37,866
"Sleeping pills would work,
533
00:27:37,866 --> 00:27:39,784
"but if you really want to die,
534
00:27:39,784 --> 00:27:42,662
I don't get why
you wouldn't try it."
535
00:27:42,662 --> 00:27:44,873
BREGGIN:
Yes, correct, exactly.
536
00:27:44,873 --> 00:27:47,792
- But you said that her
behavior changed on July 2nd?
537
00:27:47,792 --> 00:27:48,877
- Yes.
538
00:27:48,877 --> 00:27:51,504
- Well, these text messages
539
00:27:51,504 --> 00:27:53,924
from Michelle Carter
to Conrad Roy
540
00:27:53,924 --> 00:27:58,803
were sent on June 29th, 2014.
541
00:27:58,803 --> 00:28:02,432
♪ ♪
542
00:28:02,432 --> 00:28:05,477
BREGGIN:
You're taking my words
out of context.
543
00:28:05,477 --> 00:28:07,312
KATIE:
Okay.
544
00:28:07,312 --> 00:28:09,064
May I approach?
545
00:28:12,442 --> 00:28:16,321
Can you please tell the court
what this book is?
546
00:28:16,321 --> 00:28:20,700
- Yes, it's the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual
547
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:23,370
of Mental Disorders,
the DSM-5.
548
00:28:23,370 --> 00:28:27,958
- An encyclopedia of every
diagnosed mental disorder.
549
00:28:27,958 --> 00:28:29,459
BREGGIN:
Yes.
550
00:28:29,459 --> 00:28:31,586
KATIE:
Could you grab
the section that covers
551
00:28:31,586 --> 00:28:34,005
involuntary intoxication
for me, please?
552
00:28:34,005 --> 00:28:38,134
- Well, there is no section
on involuntary intoxication.
553
00:28:38,134 --> 00:28:39,678
It's a legal term.
554
00:28:42,806 --> 00:28:45,058
- Well, then, what are
you diagnosing her with?
555
00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:47,978
- Oh, she has
drug intoxication.
556
00:28:47,978 --> 00:28:50,397
It's in the general group...
557
00:28:50,397 --> 00:28:51,606
- [inaudible]
BREGGIN: Of substance-induced
558
00:28:51,606 --> 00:28:52,983
mood disorders.
559
00:28:52,983 --> 00:28:55,026
- So it's not in there.
- Well, it's--
560
00:28:55,026 --> 00:28:57,070
KATIE:
Sir, I'm asking whether or not
561
00:28:57,070 --> 00:29:00,323
the DSM-5 has
a specific criteria
562
00:29:00,323 --> 00:29:04,619
for the diagnosis
of involuntary intoxication,
563
00:29:04,619 --> 00:29:07,664
the diagnosis that you are
providing for the defendant.
564
00:29:07,664 --> 00:29:08,957
Is it in there?
565
00:29:08,957 --> 00:29:11,209
- Well, no.
566
00:29:11,209 --> 00:29:13,586
It's a legal--
- Legal term.
567
00:29:15,672 --> 00:29:16,840
I tender the witness,
Your Honor.
568
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:17,841
[papers rustling]
569
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:40,363
- [breathing shakily]
570
00:29:49,289 --> 00:29:53,209
[whimpers]
571
00:29:53,209 --> 00:29:56,171
[sobbing]
572
00:30:04,304 --> 00:30:05,722
[phone chimes]
573
00:30:05,722 --> 00:30:08,892
[breathing shakily]
574
00:30:08,892 --> 00:30:10,977
CONRAD:
Sorry, I took some
sleeping pills
575
00:30:10,977 --> 00:30:12,979
and I fell asleep.
576
00:30:21,738 --> 00:30:25,075
- You said you wanted this bad.
577
00:30:25,075 --> 00:30:27,160
[exhales]
578
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,412
I knew you wouldn't try hard.
579
00:30:29,412 --> 00:30:31,998
I feel like such an idiot.
580
00:30:31,998 --> 00:30:33,666
- [chuckles]
Why?
581
00:30:37,003 --> 00:30:40,548
- Because you didn't even
do anything.
582
00:30:40,548 --> 00:30:42,967
You lied
about this whole thing.
583
00:30:42,967 --> 00:30:44,260
[pensive music]
584
00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:46,554
I'm just--
585
00:30:46,554 --> 00:30:49,140
I'm just so confused because...
586
00:30:51,643 --> 00:30:52,936
[exhales]
587
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,609
I thought
you really wanted to die.
588
00:30:59,609 --> 00:31:02,237
[sniffles]
But apparently you don't.
589
00:31:02,237 --> 00:31:05,406
♪ ♪
590
00:31:05,406 --> 00:31:08,952
I just feel played
and just stupid.
591
00:31:08,952 --> 00:31:10,537
CONRAD:
Don't.
592
00:31:10,537 --> 00:31:15,792
I found out a new plan,
and I'm gonna do it.
593
00:31:18,962 --> 00:31:20,880
- I don't believe you.
594
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,428
You're gonna have
to prove me wrong
595
00:31:27,428 --> 00:31:30,932
because I don't think
you really want this.
596
00:31:30,932 --> 00:31:33,601
You just keep pushing it
to another night.
597
00:31:36,896 --> 00:31:38,815
And you never do it.
598
00:31:44,988 --> 00:31:47,198
- Okay.
599
00:31:47,198 --> 00:31:49,492
- Okay what?
CONRAD: Okay.
600
00:31:49,492 --> 00:31:51,661
I'll prove you wrong.
601
00:31:51,661 --> 00:31:55,582
♪ ♪
602
00:31:55,582 --> 00:32:01,546
- [breathing heavily]
603
00:32:01,546 --> 00:32:08,553
♪ ♪
604
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:27,322
PERSON:
If I were that judge,
605
00:32:27,322 --> 00:32:28,948
you know what I'd say?
606
00:32:28,948 --> 00:32:30,491
"Your parents aren't
going to miss you
607
00:32:30,491 --> 00:32:33,536
if you're locked up
for the next 30 years."
608
00:32:33,536 --> 00:32:35,580
This is evil.
DAVID: Turn it off.
609
00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:36,956
PERSON:
Where does evil come from?
610
00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:38,082
HAYDEN: It's the news.
DAVID: Your sister does not
611
00:32:38,082 --> 00:32:39,083
need to hear this right now.
612
00:32:39,083 --> 00:32:40,335
Turn it off, Hayden.
613
00:32:40,335 --> 00:32:42,086
- He was an easy target.
614
00:32:42,086 --> 00:32:44,047
It's all about attention,
615
00:32:44,047 --> 00:32:45,340
people noticing her.
616
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:46,507
[TV turns off]
617
00:32:46,507 --> 00:32:47,800
- We're just
supposed to ignore it?
618
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,427
- I'm not doing this
with you right now, sorry.
619
00:32:49,427 --> 00:32:50,929
HAYDEN: No, you know what
everyone thinks of me
620
00:32:50,929 --> 00:32:52,805
in school, in this town?
621
00:32:52,805 --> 00:32:55,141
DAVID: Hayden, I am sorry,
but this is not helping.
622
00:32:55,141 --> 00:32:56,601
We can't be watching
this garbage right now.
623
00:32:56,601 --> 00:32:58,019
- You should go get ready.
HAYDEN: No, you always yell
624
00:32:58,019 --> 00:33:00,271
at me and I don't understand.
It's always about her.
625
00:33:00,271 --> 00:33:01,606
DAVID: Don't be dramatic.
HAYDEN: I'm serious.
626
00:33:01,606 --> 00:33:03,733
All you do is focus on her,
talk about her.
627
00:33:03,733 --> 00:33:06,569
MONIZ:
Your closing argument,
Mr. Cataldo.
628
00:33:13,534 --> 00:33:17,413
- The medical examiner
ruled the death a suicide.
629
00:33:17,413 --> 00:33:19,415
Now, there's no statute
in the state of Massachusetts
630
00:33:19,415 --> 00:33:21,417
outlawing suicide,
there's no statute
631
00:33:21,417 --> 00:33:23,294
in the state of Massachusetts
that says
632
00:33:23,294 --> 00:33:25,171
it's against the law to help
633
00:33:25,171 --> 00:33:28,633
or assist in a suicide.
634
00:33:28,633 --> 00:33:30,802
The evidence shows
that Conrad Roy
635
00:33:30,802 --> 00:33:34,305
was suicidal for a very,
very lengthy period of time.
636
00:33:34,305 --> 00:33:37,100
That comes out in the text
messages very clearly,
637
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:39,560
and Miss Carter was
under no legal duty
638
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,105
to call for assistance.
639
00:33:42,105 --> 00:33:44,607
The evidence also shows
in the text messages
640
00:33:44,607 --> 00:33:47,110
that Conrad Roy
641
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:50,488
specifically sought out
her encouragement.
642
00:33:52,115 --> 00:33:53,324
Your Honor, I believe that
643
00:33:53,324 --> 00:33:54,617
the Commonwealth
has failed to provide
644
00:33:54,617 --> 00:33:58,329
any evidence that
Miss Carter caused him to die.
645
00:33:59,330 --> 00:34:00,498
Thank you.
646
00:34:00,498 --> 00:34:02,834
MONIZ:
Thank you, Mr. Cataldo.
647
00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:07,046
Who's arguing
for the Commonwealth?
648
00:34:07,046 --> 00:34:08,256
- [whispering] Okay.
649
00:34:08,256 --> 00:34:09,382
Okay.
650
00:34:15,805 --> 00:34:17,765
- I'm not just gonna
stand here and say,
651
00:34:17,765 --> 00:34:19,350
"Look at Commonwealth v.
Carter"
652
00:34:19,350 --> 00:34:21,102
and sit down, Your Honor.
653
00:34:21,102 --> 00:34:23,980
With regards
to the offense of manslaughter,
654
00:34:23,980 --> 00:34:26,858
I would, uh,
suggest that the Commonwealth
655
00:34:26,858 --> 00:34:30,278
needed to prove that
the conduct was intentional,
656
00:34:30,278 --> 00:34:32,238
not that the outcome
was intentional,
657
00:34:32,238 --> 00:34:34,574
but that the conduct was.
658
00:34:34,574 --> 00:34:36,659
I believe we have done that.
659
00:34:36,659 --> 00:34:40,163
Your Honor,
I ask that you consider
660
00:34:40,163 --> 00:34:43,374
not just what you know
about Conrad,
661
00:34:43,374 --> 00:34:45,460
but what you have learned
about the defendant
662
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:48,046
through the course of all this.
663
00:34:48,046 --> 00:34:50,923
The defendant clearly had many,
664
00:34:50,923 --> 00:34:55,219
what she believed, to be
substantial relationships,
665
00:34:55,219 --> 00:34:57,180
mostly through texting.
666
00:34:57,180 --> 00:34:59,932
And for Mr. Cataldo to suggest
667
00:34:59,932 --> 00:35:04,687
that Conrad had free will
is an oversimplification
668
00:35:04,687 --> 00:35:07,106
because she knew him.
669
00:35:07,106 --> 00:35:09,192
She knew he had social anxiety.
670
00:35:09,192 --> 00:35:11,152
[apprehensive music]
671
00:35:11,152 --> 00:35:15,156
She knew that he was depressed.
672
00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:17,742
She knew his frailties.
673
00:35:17,742 --> 00:35:21,871
And not only that, Your Honor,
she knew what it was like
674
00:35:21,871 --> 00:35:25,625
to feel lonely
and want someone to talk to.
675
00:35:25,625 --> 00:35:28,586
And she did talk to him
that night
676
00:35:28,586 --> 00:35:32,840
and she told him
to get back in the truck.
677
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,510
Yes, the medical examiner
has said this is a suicide,
678
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:37,595
but she is not
the final determiner
679
00:35:37,595 --> 00:35:39,263
of what the crime here is.
680
00:35:39,263 --> 00:35:41,349
You are, Your Honor.
681
00:35:43,351 --> 00:35:45,269
Thank you.
682
00:35:45,269 --> 00:35:50,191
♪ ♪
683
00:35:50,191 --> 00:35:53,194
[indistinct chatter]
684
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,792
- We should go home.
685
00:36:09,585 --> 00:36:11,671
DAVID:
We're here for your sister.
686
00:36:13,506 --> 00:36:15,550
- She doesn't want me here.
687
00:36:15,550 --> 00:36:18,428
- Well, your mother
needed to take a night off.
688
00:36:22,974 --> 00:36:25,685
- Do you think
the judge likes me?
689
00:36:31,566 --> 00:36:34,527
- It doesn't have anything
to do with him liking you.
690
00:36:43,161 --> 00:36:46,914
Is that--what the--
the doctor was saying,
691
00:36:46,914 --> 00:36:48,624
is that what happened?
692
00:36:51,419 --> 00:36:53,129
Did you black out?
693
00:37:05,057 --> 00:37:06,434
I wish you would talk to me.
694
00:37:06,434 --> 00:37:09,729
I wish you knew that
you could talk to me.
695
00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:12,774
I...
696
00:37:17,278 --> 00:37:19,280
I love you no matter what.
697
00:37:20,656 --> 00:37:23,117
I will always be here for you,
698
00:37:23,117 --> 00:37:25,161
no matter what.
699
00:37:31,042 --> 00:37:34,128
- You should just go in
without me.
700
00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:39,342
- I can't.
701
00:37:39,342 --> 00:37:40,676
- It's okay.
702
00:37:40,676 --> 00:37:44,180
DAVID: No, you're not allowed
to be left alone.
703
00:37:44,180 --> 00:37:46,599
[apprehensive music]
704
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:48,184
We'll just let them get
through the first few songs
705
00:37:48,184 --> 00:37:50,102
and then we'll go in.
706
00:37:50,102 --> 00:37:53,314
♪ ♪
707
00:37:53,314 --> 00:37:57,318
[applause]
708
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:17,421
- I'd like to perform
a song for someone
709
00:38:17,421 --> 00:38:19,674
very special to me
that's here tonight.
710
00:38:19,674 --> 00:38:22,510
My sister, Michelle.
711
00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:24,637
Michelle, come up here.
712
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:31,561
Come on.
- Go on.
713
00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:48,494
[echoing clank]
714
00:38:54,542 --> 00:38:57,378
[person clears throat, coughs]
715
00:39:04,468 --> 00:39:05,678
HAYDEN:
Sit.
716
00:39:10,433 --> 00:39:14,437
[piano playing Wheatus'
"Teenage Dirtbag"]
717
00:39:14,437 --> 00:39:20,651
♪ ♪
718
00:39:20,651 --> 00:39:23,654
CHOIR:
♪ Her name is Noelle ♪
719
00:39:23,654 --> 00:39:26,324
♪ I have a dream about her ♪
720
00:39:26,324 --> 00:39:28,701
♪ She rings my bell ♪
721
00:39:28,701 --> 00:39:31,704
♪ Got gym class
in half an hour ♪
722
00:39:31,704 --> 00:39:34,123
♪ Oh, how she rocks ♪
723
00:39:34,123 --> 00:39:36,751
♪ In Keds and tube socks ♪
724
00:39:36,751 --> 00:39:42,256
♪ But she doesn't know
who I am ♪
725
00:39:42,256 --> 00:39:47,261
♪ 'Cause I'm just
a teenage dirtbag, baby ♪
726
00:39:47,261 --> 00:39:52,767
♪ Yeah, I'm just
a teenage dirtbag, baby ♪
727
00:39:52,767 --> 00:39:57,438
♪ Listen to Iron Maiden, baby ♪
728
00:39:57,438 --> 00:39:59,482
♪ With me ♪
729
00:39:59,482 --> 00:40:03,277
♪ Ooh ♪
730
00:40:03,277 --> 00:40:05,905
♪ Her boyfriend's a dick ♪
731
00:40:05,905 --> 00:40:10,993
♪ He brings a gun to school,
and he'd simply kick ♪
732
00:40:10,993 --> 00:40:13,913
♪ My ass if he knew the truth ♪
733
00:40:13,913 --> 00:40:16,332
♪ He lives on my block ♪
734
00:40:16,332 --> 00:40:18,876
♪ He drives an IROC ♪
735
00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:24,423
♪ But he doesn't know
who I am ♪
736
00:40:24,423 --> 00:40:29,512
♪ And he doesn't give
a damn about me ♪
737
00:40:29,512 --> 00:40:34,642
♪ 'Cause I'm just
a teenage dirtbag, baby ♪
738
00:40:34,642 --> 00:40:40,314
♪ Yeah, I'm just
a teenage dirtbag, baby ♪
739
00:40:40,314 --> 00:40:44,610
♪ Listen to Iron Maiden, baby ♪
740
00:40:44,610 --> 00:40:46,362
♪ With me ♪
741
00:40:46,362 --> 00:40:49,448
♪ ♪
742
00:40:49,448 --> 00:40:52,118
♪ Oh, yeah ♪
743
00:40:52,118 --> 00:40:55,538
♪ Dirtbag ♪
744
00:40:55,538 --> 00:40:59,750
♪ She doesn't know
what she's missing ♪
745
00:40:59,750 --> 00:41:02,545
♪ Oh, yeah (Oh, yeah) ♪
746
00:41:02,545 --> 00:41:04,964
♪ Dirtbag ♪
747
00:41:04,964 --> 00:41:06,841
♪ No, she doesn't know ♪
748
00:41:06,841 --> 00:41:08,009
♪ What she's missing ♪
- [screams]
749
00:41:08,009 --> 00:41:09,927
Stop!
750
00:41:09,927 --> 00:41:12,304
[choir singing Queen's
"Somebody to Love"]
751
00:41:12,304 --> 00:41:13,639
- You okay?
752
00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:17,727
CHOIR:
♪ Can anybody find me ♪
753
00:41:17,727 --> 00:41:23,524
♪ Somebody to ♪
754
00:41:23,524 --> 00:41:30,531
♪ Love ♪
52655
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