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Hello, I'm novelist and critic
Kim Newman, and I'm here with...
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Author and filmmaker Sean hogan.
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And what are we here to talk about?
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We're here to talk about sleep,
the new German horror film.
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I mean, I suppose it is a horror film,
but it's a number of other things as well.
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Yeah, I think it's...
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I mean, and I should footnote a bit
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that it's rather unusual for us
to be doing a commentary on a new film.
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It's also a new film
by a first-time feature filmmaker/director.
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So we can't fall back on,
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"and here's what they did
in their earlier work,"
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and make connections
with the auteur vision.
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It's a film in and of itself.
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I think it does relate to some other films
in interesting ways we can talk about,
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but we're working a bit in a vacuum
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compared to our usual commentary.
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We've got lots of cultural detail
to draw on.
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So, in a way, we're on a journey
with the listener.
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Yes!
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We're not positioning ourselves,
I should say, as experts
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in any way on this particular film or...
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No, but it's an interesting film
that warrants discussion
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and so, hopefully,
we can manage that.
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I hope that we can elucidate a bit.
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And it seems to be a film
that's not had a great deal of exposure
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in this country previously.
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No. I...
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I had heard of it,
but I had not seen it before.
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It came up as a possibility
we should do this.
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You generally see, obviously,
more of the new releases than I do
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so I wondered
whether you had seen it previously.
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It had not quite crossed my radar.
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I mean...
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But then again,
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don't you love it when you get a film
you've never heard of?
36
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It does all kinds
of weird, surprising things.
37
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And the next Michael Venus film
I'm now really looking foward to.
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I hope he doesn't take as long about it
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because, ahhough
he's a first-time filmmaker,
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he's not a young filmmaker.
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He's in his mid-40s.
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He's directed a couple
of short films before.
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And this is a very assured film formally.
It's a very controlled film.
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It's also a grown-up film,
I have to say, which...
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I don't think
that's a particularly risky strategy
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in, as it were, continental horror,
47
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but it's not what American horror
has tended to be,
48
00:02:51,420 --> 00:02:53,381
aimed at teenagers.
49
00:02:54,298 --> 00:02:59,804
I think that the European tradition...
50
00:02:59,929 --> 00:03:03,391
And this film is steeped
in the brothers grimm
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and all kinds of...
And e.T.A. Hoffmann
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and other German gothic images,
as always.
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Even though the brothers grimm,
in theory, wrote for children.
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Yeah!
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Yeah, it's interesting, in fact,
that there's almost a bit of a feint
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in the opening.
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We assume that the mother,
played by Sandra hiiller,
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who is the most familiar actor
from her part in Toni erdmann,
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which was an international hit,
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is going to be the lead character,
but no, she goes to sleep!
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And it's the daughter,
the younger woman,
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who receives the sins
of several generations passed down,
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which, again,
is a particularly German theme.
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The director has talked about this
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as being his dark version
of a heimat movie.
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Do you want to explain a bit
what a heimat movie actually is?
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So, I'm certainly not an expert
on heimat movies,
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but, as I understand them,
they were a genre
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that was very popular in the '50s
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and presented kind of idyllic visions
of small German towns
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and were very romanticized pictures
of the German rural life.
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And it was something
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that traditionally newer generations
of filmmakers have reacted against.
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In new German cinema
there are several anti-heimat films.
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In fact, the famous TV mini-series
heimat by Edgar reitz,
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which is actually one of those
astonishingly influential works,
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invented binge-watching
in the early 1980s.
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Before there was a medium
that was suited to heimat,
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heimat was disguised
as a TV series in Germany
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and a film in britain.
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And it had... there were
several follow-ups to that.
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And I think that that meant
that outside Germany
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we got a sense
of what heimat film was.
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And Michael haneke has had a go
at heimat film as well.
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The white ribbon is very much
an anti-heimat film.
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But I think
what's interesting about this is...
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A lot of those films
tend to be quite dour
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in their rejection
of that image of Germany
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whereas this is quite funny
in a creepy sort of way.
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We'll obviously get to that point
later in the film, but...
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It exposes the rot in the rural village,
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but then proceeds to poke fun at it.
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Yeah, it's...
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In some ways it reminded me
of the British movie hot fuzz
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by Edgar Wright,
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which is much more parodic
than this is
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but also has the idea that
what you need to be terrified of
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is what ray Davies called
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"the village green
preservation society".
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- Those are your actual monsters.
- Yes!
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We do get that in this.
102
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There's a creepiness to small-town life.
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I suppose Stephen King is
kind of a heimat writer in america
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in the way that he reacts
to Thornton Wilder's our town
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or grace metalious' Peyton place,
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with Salem's lot or it,
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which explicitly relate
to the earlier works.
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I think this does explicitly relate
to a great German tradition,
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something that I suspect
is common on German television.
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It's... there's a sort
of soap-opera feel to it,
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although we're in a particular slice of...
112
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It's actually former east Germany
here, isn't it?
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So it's got several layers
of totalitarianism to kick against.
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00:07:13,182 --> 00:07:18,020
Jessica hausner made a film
called hotel a few years back
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that actually had
a slightly similar feel to this.
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That's also about a hotel at the very edge
of the deep, dark teutonic woods.
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That's a very German theme, isn't it?
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Possibly even more enigmatic
than this is,
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which does at least clear up
most of its mysteries in the end.
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You have a mystery that is solved.
121
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And this stretch of it
is almost Italian giallo
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in terms of its setup, isn't it?
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It's dreams rather than
something glimpsed or a clue,
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but it's still...
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Those children's pictures,
the sketchy visions,
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and the thing that happened
that nobody has quite understood
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and that our outsider protagonist realizes
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is intimately involved
with their own origin.
129
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Yes.
130
00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:13,951
Actually, also underlying
the structure of all this
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is h.P. Lovecraft's
the shadow over innsmouth,
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where the outsider realizes
he's not an outsider.
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Not an outsider. Yes, yeah.
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That this is where he comes from.
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And also, as you were saying,
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in the way it seems
to position her as a protagonist,
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it's almost a little bit of psycho
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in that she goes to this strange hotel
and she doesn't die,
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but she's basically sidelined
for most of the rest of the movie.
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Which, I mean, the first time I saw it
I found very disorienting,
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because I had assumed
that the younger girl,
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who was not an actress
I was familiar with,
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I assumed she was going
to be a secondary part
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rather than, as it turns out, the character
that we spend all our time with.
145
00:09:05,419 --> 00:09:09,506
And this moment, I think, signals
towards another big influence on this,
146
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which would be lynch,
and specifically twin peaks.
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Which also includes a motel
at the very edge of the deep, dark woods.
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But no, yeah...
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Hogs are the big...
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The monster animal or the totemic animal,
the absurd animal here.
151
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Yes.
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Which, again, given that Germany
is famous for its sausages...
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Strikes me as being a knowing...
154
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There's also a lot of quite grotesque
sausage-eating in this film later on.
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Yeah.
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I don't... do Germans know
that sausage-eater is a demeaning term?
157
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I think it goes back
to the first world war, but it's...
158
00:10:02,518 --> 00:10:06,772
But it does seem to crop up here.
It's almost like... yeah.
159
00:10:07,898 --> 00:10:12,027
But in terms of what you were saying
about this being a grown-up horror movie,
160
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I suppose it makes sense
lynch being such an overt influence on it
161
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in the sense that, you know,
both you and I share the opinion
162
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that lynch is probably one
of the foremost horror directors
163
00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:26,125
of the last 30 years or so,
164
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but he's not often categorized as such.
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He's certainly, I would say,
the most influential on horror.
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And another...
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It's not even a director,
but there is a single film
168
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from...
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From 2015
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that, I think, has turned out to be
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an all-pervasive influence
on subsequent horror
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00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:53,861
and Michael Venus cites it.
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00:10:53,986 --> 00:10:58,991
It's Rodney ascher's documentary
the nightmare about sleep paralysis
174
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and the vision
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00:11:01,743 --> 00:11:07,124
that so many sleepers or half-sleepers
claim to have seen.
176
00:11:07,249 --> 00:11:09,668
It's the inspiration
of a nightmare on elm street.
177
00:11:09,793 --> 00:11:12,045
It's the man with the hat in the room.
178
00:11:13,589 --> 00:11:18,260
But that particular film, which examines
that phenomenon all around the world
179
00:11:18,385 --> 00:11:24,224
by interviewing a lot of sufferers,
or people who have had this experience,
180
00:11:24,349 --> 00:11:25,767
this common...
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00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:28,395
It's not even a paranormal experience,
182
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,568
but it's something that seems
to pervade all culture...
183
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A sort of shared unconscious.
184
00:11:37,404 --> 00:11:41,575
And people have talked about it
in jungian terms
185
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and come up with all kinds
of other rationalizations for it.
186
00:11:45,454 --> 00:11:50,209
But that particular film seemed
to have crystallized so much material
187
00:11:50,334 --> 00:11:54,963
that immediately there have been,
like, a dozen creepypasta-type movies.
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Slender man, the bye bye man,
all these movies that tap into that.
189
00:12:03,138 --> 00:12:08,977
And this doesn't go
quite as full-on into that theme
190
00:12:09,102 --> 00:12:13,440
as some of the other movies
that played with it as an idea,
191
00:12:13,565 --> 00:12:18,403
but it certainly seems to be floating
around in the background.
192
00:12:18,528 --> 00:12:22,783
I mean, sleep is a strange title
for a horror film.
193
00:12:22,908 --> 00:12:26,328
It's an Andy warhol title, isn't it?
194
00:12:26,453 --> 00:12:30,290
Not that anybody has ever
actually watched that film.
195
00:12:30,415 --> 00:12:35,003
It's one of those, as with a lot
of those Andy warhol films,
196
00:12:35,128 --> 00:12:38,632
it's essentially a joke,
wallpaper that moves if you look at it,
197
00:12:38,757 --> 00:12:44,221
not a narrative feature
you're supposed to sit there and absorb.
198
00:12:44,346 --> 00:12:46,181
But... yeah.
199
00:12:48,767 --> 00:12:52,062
Here we're back with giallo stuff.
200
00:12:52,187 --> 00:12:56,233
Yes, now established
as our lead protagonist.
201
00:12:56,358 --> 00:12:59,111
She's even wearing a yellowjacket.
202
00:13:01,989 --> 00:13:07,244
The notion of the bad place
you see in dreams
203
00:13:07,369 --> 00:13:10,122
and then find in reality,
204
00:13:10,247 --> 00:13:16,670
that's almost one of the oldest
ghost stories or fairy tales.
205
00:13:18,630 --> 00:13:22,759
There are precedents
in horror movies, aren't there?
206
00:13:22,884 --> 00:13:26,305
Lucio fulci's the psychic
does that for instance.
207
00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:29,766
But it's not something
that's done very often.
208
00:13:30,809 --> 00:13:34,396
And here it's done
in a rather odd, naturalistic way
209
00:13:34,521 --> 00:13:38,608
because she sees a place
that somebody else has seen in dreams
210
00:13:38,734 --> 00:13:40,193
rather than she has.
211
00:13:40,319 --> 00:13:44,614
She's really just trying to find out
what happened to her mother.
212
00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:50,412
She is our detective,
our narrative hook, Mona.
213
00:13:50,537 --> 00:13:55,792
Gro swantje kohlhof,
who's been in a couple of things,
214
00:13:55,917 --> 00:13:58,045
but this is her first real lead.
215
00:13:58,170 --> 00:14:01,882
I saw her in an earlier German film
called nothing bad can happen,
216
00:14:02,007 --> 00:14:07,220
which is... she's much younger.
She was probably about 15 in that.
217
00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:10,557
It was a supporting role.
She plays the daughter of this family,
218
00:14:10,682 --> 00:14:12,642
but similarly has to bear witness
219
00:14:12,768 --> 00:14:18,231
to a lot of strange, weird, bizarre things
going on in front of her.
220
00:14:18,357 --> 00:14:21,902
Yeah. I think
she's very effective in this.
221
00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:26,865
And I really like
the relationships she forms
222
00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:32,788
with the other misfit or younger people
in this isolated community.
223
00:14:32,913 --> 00:14:35,582
But again, because
they're all slightly oddballs,
224
00:14:35,707 --> 00:14:39,544
she has to be the straight man,
but she does it very well.
225
00:14:41,505 --> 00:14:42,839
And here...
226
00:14:42,964 --> 00:14:47,260
Yes! It has to be a knowing moment
where the whole bar turns round.
227
00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:48,678
Yeah...
228
00:14:48,804 --> 00:14:51,640
It's like, it was done
in American werewolf in London
229
00:14:51,765 --> 00:14:54,351
as a reference to the fact
that it happens.
230
00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:55,769
It's usually westerns
231
00:14:55,894 --> 00:14:59,106
where a stranger walks into the bar
and everybody shuts up.
232
00:14:59,231 --> 00:15:04,361
But since American werewolf
it's become a trope,
233
00:15:04,486 --> 00:15:06,613
I think, or a running joke.
234
00:15:06,738 --> 00:15:10,992
It's like you can't even say
that it's a cliche.
235
00:15:11,118 --> 00:15:14,996
It's just a signifier,
a thing that happens.
236
00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:19,543
But, you know, again,
in that sort of lynchian way
237
00:15:19,668 --> 00:15:24,673
this film isn't afraid to have
moments of bizarre humor
238
00:15:24,798 --> 00:15:26,800
in amongst the weirdness.
239
00:15:29,177 --> 00:15:35,809
And the fact that our villains
are sort of sitcom absurd as well.
240
00:15:38,228 --> 00:15:42,399
I think that differentiates it
from some other films
241
00:15:42,524 --> 00:15:44,734
that have had similar themes.
242
00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:47,112
I think of the Polish film demon,
243
00:15:47,237 --> 00:15:51,992
which is another
"don't mention the war" horror film.
244
00:15:52,117 --> 00:15:56,329
That seems much more wrapped up
in the specific horrors
245
00:15:56,455 --> 00:15:58,874
and injustices of the 20th century.
246
00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:02,002
Here they're generalized horrors.
247
00:16:02,127 --> 00:16:06,423
It's almost like... although
there are jokes about Nazis here.
248
00:16:06,548 --> 00:16:09,634
Notably, there are no jokes
about communists,
249
00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:12,721
which may be too recent
and too painful, I don't know.
250
00:16:14,431 --> 00:16:18,018
But also, because
it's an ancient forest,
251
00:16:18,143 --> 00:16:22,689
you have a feeling that whatever's
wrong here has been wrong well before.
252
00:16:24,816 --> 00:16:30,155
And that's the notion
of an anti-heimat film, isn't it?
253
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,284
The notion of an heimat film is
there's something rich and good
254
00:16:34,409 --> 00:16:36,036
and strong and powerful.
255
00:16:36,161 --> 00:16:39,247
It's like "tomorrow belongs to me"
in cabaret.
256
00:16:39,372 --> 00:16:45,545
That vision of the German countryside
as nurturing and friendly and folksy.
257
00:16:47,130 --> 00:16:52,552
This is the German countryside as chilly
and unwelcoming and dangerous.
258
00:16:52,677 --> 00:16:56,181
The lynch vision
of the insects under the lawn.
259
00:16:56,306 --> 00:16:57,641
Yeah.
260
00:17:05,106 --> 00:17:09,194
And it's another
empty-hotel story, isn't it?
261
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,239
Yeah. I mean, again,
another obvious influence on it
262
00:17:12,364 --> 00:17:14,199
would be the shining
in that sense.
263
00:17:14,324 --> 00:17:21,081
Another grown-up horror movie
that uses the bland eeriness
264
00:17:21,206 --> 00:17:25,377
of these kind of transitional
empty spaces.
265
00:17:28,672 --> 00:17:33,343
But so many urban legends
are about hotels.
266
00:17:34,469 --> 00:17:37,639
Which, I mean...
Not so much the shining,
267
00:17:37,764 --> 00:17:43,520
but in king's later one...
Was it room 1407?
268
00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:45,814
I can never get the number right.
269
00:17:46,606 --> 00:17:50,110
Which almost collects urban legends
about hotels and hotel rooms.
270
00:17:50,235 --> 00:17:51,611
- Yes.
- Yeah.
271
00:17:51,736 --> 00:17:54,656
It's an anthology of those.
272
00:17:56,741 --> 00:17:59,411
And Stephen King, I would assume,
has probably stayed
273
00:17:59,536 --> 00:18:01,413
in quite a lot of hotels in his life.
274
00:18:01,538 --> 00:18:05,208
Yeah. It's a thing you learn
in the creative business when you're...
275
00:18:05,333 --> 00:18:08,295
Particularly in america
where you have to go on the road.
276
00:18:13,675 --> 00:18:19,264
I always like
these puzzling-together sequences.
277
00:18:19,389 --> 00:18:21,933
Yeah, well, it's...
278
00:18:22,726 --> 00:18:27,188
It's nice when you watch
characters figure things out
279
00:18:27,314 --> 00:18:32,193
and yet you're not being spoon-fed
the plot along with it,
280
00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:35,071
you have to sort of figure it out
along with them.
281
00:18:47,626 --> 00:18:49,961
And now we're in a creepy supermarket.
282
00:18:50,086 --> 00:18:54,799
I mean, again, it's a small town,
but it's weirdly empty.
283
00:18:54,924 --> 00:18:55,925
Yeah.
284
00:18:56,051 --> 00:18:59,304
The hotel is off season
so there's a reason why that's empty,
285
00:18:59,429 --> 00:19:01,514
but you'd expect the town
to have some...
286
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,142
We saw a whole bunch of people
in a pub.
287
00:19:04,267 --> 00:19:05,685
But that seems to...
288
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:10,774
I think that's the last time, until we get
the gathering later in the film,
289
00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:12,942
that we actually see...
290
00:19:13,068 --> 00:19:16,029
And, in fact, this is a film
that has no sense of community.
291
00:19:16,154 --> 00:19:18,907
You never see
where these people live.
292
00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:23,828
I mean, I assume
that the family live at the hotel.
293
00:19:23,953 --> 00:19:27,123
I don't even know if they do,
because they've got that bar,
294
00:19:27,248 --> 00:19:29,334
which seems to be separate
from the hotel.
295
00:19:31,086 --> 00:19:33,171
- Mona.
- Hi, Mona. That's christoph.
296
00:19:35,548 --> 00:19:36,758
We 7! See each other tomorrow.
297
00:19:38,426 --> 00:19:39,511
Bye, you two.
298
00:19:42,263 --> 00:19:44,224
- Are you staying at the hotel?
- Yes.
299
00:19:44,349 --> 00:19:45,809
What do I owe you, then?
300
00:19:49,437 --> 00:19:50,897
It's on the house.
301
00:19:52,065 --> 00:19:53,149
Thanks.
302
00:20:03,535 --> 00:20:05,787
I mean, one wonders
if it was a budgetary thing
303
00:20:05,912 --> 00:20:10,208
that they had this hotel as a location
but couldn't afford to put guests in it.
304
00:20:10,333 --> 00:20:14,087
Yeah. It feels more...
305
00:20:14,212 --> 00:20:17,090
There's a nice bit of set-up there
with the two doors.
306
00:20:17,215 --> 00:20:22,011
You know that's chekhovian.
307
00:20:22,137 --> 00:20:24,723
But there's something quite unnerving
about the idea
308
00:20:24,848 --> 00:20:27,809
of staying in this huge empty hotel
all on your own.
309
00:20:27,934 --> 00:20:29,269
Yeah.
310
00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:35,233
And yet, I mean, there are various places
around the world that that can happen.
311
00:20:35,358 --> 00:20:36,818
I've had it happen to me.
312
00:20:38,778 --> 00:20:41,531
And actually,
it's probably something that is...
313
00:20:42,407 --> 00:20:48,163
It seems surreal,
but it's actually observed.
314
00:20:48,288 --> 00:20:53,209
Because of various economic reversals
in the last couple of decades
315
00:20:53,334 --> 00:20:57,380
you have a lot of places
that were built during the boom
316
00:20:57,505 --> 00:21:00,925
and then come online during the bust.
317
00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:07,640
I remember particularly going
to a film-related event in Dublin
318
00:21:07,766 --> 00:21:08,767
and they'd had that.
319
00:21:08,892 --> 00:21:12,437
They'd built a whole business area
that had not thrived.
320
00:21:12,562 --> 00:21:14,647
And they put me
in one of those hotels.
321
00:21:14,773 --> 00:21:18,443
Presumably it was dirt cheap,
but it was exactly like this.
322
00:21:18,568 --> 00:21:26,568
You were in this big, modern,
not ultra-luxurious but comfortable place
323
00:21:27,285 --> 00:21:28,912
with nobody else.
324
00:21:29,037 --> 00:21:32,540
And you would go out
to get a cup of coffee
325
00:21:32,665 --> 00:21:37,462
and find that,
instead of actually having coffee bars,
326
00:21:37,587 --> 00:21:41,508
they had empty shops
with big pictures of coffee bars
327
00:21:41,633 --> 00:21:45,929
as an advert to try and get people
to put their businesses there
328
00:21:46,054 --> 00:21:48,973
that hadn't happened
because the recession had hit.
329
00:21:49,098 --> 00:21:52,101
And so you have these places.
330
00:21:52,227 --> 00:21:55,063
I found this one in Ireland,
331
00:21:55,188 --> 00:21:58,233
but I am sure
they're all over the world.
332
00:21:59,692 --> 00:22:05,365
I have stayed in large empty hotels
in the former east Germany as well.
333
00:22:07,575 --> 00:22:10,787
But here we just got into...
334
00:22:10,912 --> 00:22:12,914
It's not quite a dream sequence,
335
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:16,835
but it's a moment where it's a bit
more colorful and strange and surreal.
336
00:22:18,503 --> 00:22:21,923
It is... is that a dream
or is that a vision?
337
00:22:22,048 --> 00:22:25,343
I think... well, as the dreams
progress in the film,
338
00:22:25,468 --> 00:22:28,429
it becomes clear
that they're a separate reality almost.
339
00:22:28,555 --> 00:22:30,974
It's not quite...
They're not quite a dream.
340
00:22:35,812 --> 00:22:40,441
And we get our first glimpse
of what we take to be the monster
341
00:22:40,567 --> 00:22:43,987
and then it obviously turns out
to be something quite different.
342
00:22:46,573 --> 00:22:49,784
One other film filmmakers talk
about being an influence
343
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:51,870
was kill, baby... kill!
344
00:22:51,995 --> 00:22:55,623
Yes, which is an interesting one
because that's another film
345
00:22:56,708 --> 00:22:59,919
that turns out to be amazingly influential
on all kinds of people,
346
00:23:00,044 --> 00:23:02,839
like fellini and scorsese.
347
00:23:04,257 --> 00:23:07,176
When the last temptation of Christ
came out,
348
00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:10,513
I remember scorsese was interviewed
and someone said,
349
00:23:10,638 --> 00:23:12,932
"in your depiction of the devil
as a little girl"
350
00:23:13,057 --> 00:23:15,393
"were you thinking
of fellini's Toby dammit?"
351
00:23:15,518 --> 00:23:18,813
He says, "no, I was thinking
of Mario bava's kill baby... kill!"
352
00:23:18,938 --> 00:23:20,773
Which is where fellini got it from.
353
00:23:21,816 --> 00:23:23,610
But, yeah...
354
00:23:23,735 --> 00:23:26,863
And it's not so much just that...
I mean, the...
355
00:23:26,988 --> 00:23:31,034
The weird figure of the child,
who's not quite a child here,
356
00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:35,330
that also is big empty-spaces...
357
00:23:35,455 --> 00:23:39,626
Although I think
that in kill baby... kill!
358
00:23:39,751 --> 00:23:42,962
The gimmick that's used there
is the same gimmick
359
00:23:43,087 --> 00:23:47,467
that Vincenzo natali used in cube,
which is that if you change the lighting,
360
00:23:47,592 --> 00:23:52,013
you can just have one set
that represents almost everything.
361
00:23:52,138 --> 00:23:56,309
And there, there's a chase
through identical rooms, isn't there?
362
00:23:56,434 --> 00:23:58,186
Of doppelgangers, whatever.
363
00:23:58,311 --> 00:24:04,817
That's a really disturbing thing about
the guy who's buckled in bed at night.
364
00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:07,737
Yeah. Again, presented
in a very matter-of-fact way.
365
00:24:07,862 --> 00:24:10,531
You sort of think,
"what's really going on here?"
366
00:24:10,657 --> 00:24:15,161
But he's coping, actually,
with a supernatural curse,
367
00:24:15,286 --> 00:24:20,708
but it sort of seems a bit like a kink
at first rather than...
368
00:24:20,833 --> 00:24:26,631
It's in fact... and I don't know whether
we're supposed to admire this guy,
369
00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:30,969
but after the other three people
on the monster's death list
370
00:24:31,094 --> 00:24:32,303
have been checked off,
371
00:24:32,428 --> 00:24:34,722
he has come up
with an effective strategy.
372
00:24:34,847 --> 00:24:37,225
He's very practical
about dealing with the curse.
373
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:38,559
Resisting the curse.
374
00:24:38,685 --> 00:24:42,522
If this were
a nightmare on elm street film
375
00:24:42,647 --> 00:24:47,860
you'd admire him,
no matter how guilty he was.
376
00:24:51,364 --> 00:24:54,367
And this struck me
as a very sort of twin peaks scene
377
00:24:54,492 --> 00:24:56,953
with this eccentric hotel.
378
00:24:57,078 --> 00:25:00,415
Yes. The weird maid.
379
00:25:07,213 --> 00:25:09,257
She has to remain
completely stony-faced
380
00:25:09,382 --> 00:25:11,968
while this other girl
is imitating a boar.
381
00:25:12,093 --> 00:25:14,429
Yes.
382
00:25:17,306 --> 00:25:21,310
And do you think
this woman is doing an act
383
00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:23,229
or has she really dreamed of a boar?
384
00:25:23,354 --> 00:25:26,315
Does everybody dream of a boar
in this place?
385
00:25:38,536 --> 00:25:40,246
You know what, in that long shot
386
00:25:40,371 --> 00:25:47,670
I think I can see kohlhof's face
just starting to corpse.
387
00:25:47,795 --> 00:25:51,507
Just before the out
there's that little twitch.
388
00:25:51,632 --> 00:25:57,930
And I suspect
there are several takes where...
389
00:26:00,224 --> 00:26:04,062
Strangely, I think one of the reasons
that's a disturbing moment
390
00:26:04,187 --> 00:26:06,647
is that you could see both faces.
391
00:26:07,899 --> 00:26:12,653
It's a very underrated ability
as an actor,
392
00:26:12,779 --> 00:26:15,406
not to laugh, to stay in the moment
393
00:26:15,531 --> 00:26:19,619
while someone else
is doing something absolutely crazy.
394
00:26:19,744 --> 00:26:23,456
I always admire the supporting cast
of Dr. Strangelove
395
00:26:23,581 --> 00:26:28,961
for standing around while Peter sellers
is doing the funniest shtick in the world
396
00:26:29,087 --> 00:26:32,590
as if it was really serious.
397
00:26:34,050 --> 00:26:36,803
On the flip side of that,
Peter sellers always blamed
398
00:26:36,928 --> 00:26:40,515
the fact that he didn't win
the best actor Oscar for being there
399
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,393
on the fact that they showed him
corpsing over the end credits
400
00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:47,814
and he thought that meant
that people didn't take it seriously.
401
00:26:47,939 --> 00:26:49,649
Oh, well...
402
00:26:51,818 --> 00:26:53,319
But this kind of...
403
00:26:53,444 --> 00:26:56,531
Although, as I say,
lynch was doing this 30 years ago,
404
00:26:56,656 --> 00:27:00,993
this mixture of eccentric humor
and dreamlike horror
405
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,122
still feels quite distinctive.
406
00:27:04,247 --> 00:27:06,916
There's not too many other films
that do it.
407
00:27:07,041 --> 00:27:08,251
Yeah.
408
00:27:08,376 --> 00:27:13,214
It may well be because
it's genuinely difficult to pull off.
409
00:27:13,339 --> 00:27:20,096
I mean, I suspect this is not a film
that a director younger could have made.
410
00:27:20,221 --> 00:27:23,641
I think you need to have
some life experiences, some maturity
411
00:27:23,766 --> 00:27:28,938
and some control
to get away with this.
412
00:27:29,063 --> 00:27:33,234
And we've seen other films
that have tried to do this.
413
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:39,949
Even this pan, it's sort of...
It's almost Addams family, isn't it?
414
00:27:41,117 --> 00:27:45,788
We referred in another
commentary track recently to...
415
00:27:45,913 --> 00:27:50,877
There's that character
in Disney's beauty and the beast
416
00:27:51,002 --> 00:27:54,338
who uses antlers
in all his interior decoration,
417
00:27:54,463 --> 00:27:57,550
and that's something
that is a signifier of wrongness.
418
00:27:57,675 --> 00:27:59,427
Yes.
419
00:27:59,552 --> 00:28:04,807
And... yet, I don't know whether...
420
00:28:04,932 --> 00:28:09,937
In britain, the hunting issue
is something that is really divisive.
421
00:28:10,062 --> 00:28:16,402
There are basically two armed camps
who will never reach any...
422
00:28:16,527 --> 00:28:22,283
I don't know that even
the German Greens have any particular...
423
00:28:22,408 --> 00:28:29,332
In Germany, and indeed in France,
boar hunting is just one of those things
424
00:28:29,457 --> 00:28:32,793
that is absolutely central to country life.
425
00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,172
And, yeah, woe betide any city slicker
426
00:28:36,297 --> 00:28:41,344
who comes along
with animal rights leaflets or whatever.
427
00:28:43,971 --> 00:28:50,061
Here, there is a sense that the people
who represent those sorts of country values
428
00:28:50,186 --> 00:28:51,771
are the baddies.
429
00:28:51,896 --> 00:28:57,235
But not in the way that they would be
in a British film or even an American film,
430
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,445
where you have
the Texas chainsaw massacre
431
00:28:59,570 --> 00:29:02,448
where there's lots of bones and stuff
hanging around.
432
00:29:02,573 --> 00:29:08,663
Here, there's still a closeness to nature.
433
00:29:08,788 --> 00:29:11,165
Yeah. I mean, it's a way of life.
434
00:29:11,290 --> 00:29:13,125
Yeah.
435
00:29:13,251 --> 00:29:19,382
And it's almost like the reason
these people are sinners, as it were,
436
00:29:19,507 --> 00:29:21,676
is that they fall away
from that way of life,
437
00:29:21,801 --> 00:29:23,844
not that they embrace it too much.
438
00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:25,972
I mean, it's not...
439
00:29:27,807 --> 00:29:30,977
The thing you occasionally get in...
440
00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:37,608
I suppose, British films do folk horror
and this isn't really that, is it?
441
00:29:37,733 --> 00:29:39,527
It's almost like they accept.
442
00:29:39,652 --> 00:29:43,906
And these really matter-of-fact visions
443
00:29:45,032 --> 00:29:47,868
are very disturbing, but also...
444
00:29:51,455 --> 00:29:54,875
They break up the notion
of what ghostliness is or what dreams are.
445
00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:58,546
At this point, the film is beyond
446
00:29:58,671 --> 00:30:03,342
the easy division
between waking and sleep.
447
00:30:03,467 --> 00:30:06,762
And this creepy guy turning up...
448
00:30:06,887 --> 00:30:10,224
We always wonder if he's going
to look to the guy hanging
449
00:30:10,349 --> 00:30:13,936
and it's going to be a fake, a joke.
450
00:30:14,061 --> 00:30:17,189
But no, it was an apparition.
451
00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:21,652
I don't think we know whether
everybody else sees the apparitions.
452
00:30:23,946 --> 00:30:26,407
Yeah, whether it's something
to do with her lineage
453
00:30:26,532 --> 00:30:30,369
that she has some, you know...
Is able to discern this more clearly.
454
00:30:30,494 --> 00:30:35,374
While she was upstairs,
they didn't hang that boar on the wall.
455
00:30:35,499 --> 00:30:37,209
They just stood there.
456
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,598
But again, the ghosts in this
feel somewhat like the shining
457
00:30:50,723 --> 00:30:55,686
in that they're presented
in these quite brightly lit tableaux.
458
00:30:55,811 --> 00:31:03,811
And here we have the three boars' heads
linked to the three suicides.
459
00:31:04,278 --> 00:31:05,696
Yeah.
460
00:31:08,574 --> 00:31:13,496
And the survivor actually almost seems
to commemorate them.
461
00:31:13,621 --> 00:31:17,583
And they've lived for years
with the dead guys on the wall
462
00:31:17,708 --> 00:31:24,715
and they're now replacing them
with the dead animals.
463
00:31:37,186 --> 00:31:42,400
And this is the backstory,
which is salted in very subtly.
464
00:31:42,525 --> 00:31:46,779
I mean, I do quite like the way that,
by the end of this film,
465
00:31:46,904 --> 00:31:49,740
we do know what has happened.
466
00:31:52,368 --> 00:31:55,621
Without it being overexplained.
467
00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:59,083
And here we have
the sort of ruins in the woods,
468
00:31:59,208 --> 00:32:04,672
which are not really explored in this.
I suspect they're just on the location.
469
00:32:04,797 --> 00:32:08,634
Yeah, I think there's mention of them
being the old armaments factory,
470
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:10,344
which again, sort of ties in
471
00:32:10,469 --> 00:32:14,974
with the backstory
of the generations of women.
472
00:32:18,686 --> 00:32:21,772
But it's there as a kind of signifier
of something
473
00:32:21,897 --> 00:32:26,652
but isn't really, you know,
laid on too heavily.
474
00:32:36,412 --> 00:32:39,957
Do you think there's a possibility that
the mother is dreaming this whole story?
475
00:32:40,082 --> 00:32:42,501
There is also that, yeah!
476
00:32:46,255 --> 00:32:49,675
It's like we're not going
to get closure on that.
477
00:32:50,718 --> 00:32:54,221
There's a little
evil dead camera move there.
478
00:32:59,768 --> 00:33:05,107
I should say...
It's sort of extraneous to the film
479
00:33:05,232 --> 00:33:08,402
but maybe explains some of the way
we're thinking about it.
480
00:33:08,527 --> 00:33:11,489
In this session we have just done
a commentary track
481
00:33:11,614 --> 00:33:14,116
for pupi avati's film zeder,
482
00:33:14,241 --> 00:33:17,870
which is not something you would have
thought of in connection with this film,
483
00:33:17,995 --> 00:33:20,456
but we're seeing
all kinds of threads between them.
484
00:33:20,581 --> 00:33:25,669
They are both what I think of
as "don't mention the war" horror films.
485
00:33:28,088 --> 00:33:34,094
Zeder, an Italian film, is overshadowed
by this great abandoned fascist structure
486
00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:38,891
and here it's the ruins
of totalitarian regimes
487
00:33:39,016 --> 00:33:41,268
that people are living with.
488
00:33:41,393 --> 00:33:46,982
I mean, you know,
it's almost a commonplace now
489
00:33:47,107 --> 00:33:51,028
that people obsess over.
490
00:33:51,153 --> 00:33:54,740
What about the villagers
who lived near death camps?
491
00:33:54,865 --> 00:33:57,743
What did they think was going on
492
00:33:57,868 --> 00:33:59,703
and how much did they know?
493
00:33:59,828 --> 00:34:02,373
And this isn't as on the nose as that.
494
00:34:02,498 --> 00:34:06,293
I mean, demon is, isn't it?
495
00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:13,467
The sin at the heart of demon
is explicitly a world war two story.
496
00:34:13,968 --> 00:34:19,765
This is almost like the rot
in the community or in the country
497
00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:22,851
has expressed itself over the years
in many ways.
498
00:34:22,977 --> 00:34:29,358
But the actual story we've got here,
although it is about a guest worker,
499
00:34:29,483 --> 00:34:34,113
isn't it, the Polish worker, who's...
500
00:34:34,238 --> 00:34:38,284
Yes, the so-called monster
is the daughter of the Polish worker,
501
00:34:38,409 --> 00:34:40,119
who we assume was raped by a Nazi.
502
00:34:40,244 --> 00:34:41,245
Yes.
503
00:34:41,370 --> 00:34:44,373
Or probably more like
raped by a communist, isn't it?
504
00:34:44,498 --> 00:34:49,211
- I mean, because of the dates.
- I think they say German.
505
00:34:49,336 --> 00:34:51,338
Possibly, maybe. Yeah, maybe.
506
00:34:51,463 --> 00:34:55,759
- I thought it dated back to the war...
- The war ended in 1945.
507
00:34:55,884 --> 00:34:56,969
Yeah.
508
00:34:58,596 --> 00:35:01,849
Yeah, I need to sit down
and work out the generations properly.
509
00:35:01,974 --> 00:35:05,477
Yeah, but it's almost...
510
00:35:05,603 --> 00:35:09,565
When I first saw this, I had a moment
of trying to work it out and thinking,
511
00:35:09,690 --> 00:35:13,068
"is this actually set in, like, 1992
or whatever?"
512
00:35:13,193 --> 00:35:16,780
But no, you see mobile phones
at some point, don't you?
513
00:35:16,905 --> 00:35:21,827
There are a few signifiers
of the present day.
514
00:35:23,704 --> 00:35:28,459
I think. I mean,
I may well be misreading the cues,
515
00:35:28,584 --> 00:35:31,003
but I think we are...
516
00:35:31,128 --> 00:35:36,634
Yeah, it's called "wellness".
That's a contemporary reference.
517
00:35:41,347 --> 00:35:44,683
One of the things I liked about this scene
is he starts dropping in
518
00:35:44,808 --> 00:35:47,519
contemporary references
like "wellness" and "co-working"
519
00:35:47,645 --> 00:35:50,939
and all of a sudden
they sound quite sinister.
520
00:35:53,942 --> 00:35:59,281
This is the scene where you start to get
a sense of him being not quite right.
521
00:35:59,406 --> 00:36:01,408
Yeah.
522
00:36:01,533 --> 00:36:07,956
I mean, it's not too much of a revelation
to say he's the big baddie in this film.
523
00:36:08,082 --> 00:36:10,084
Yes.
524
00:36:11,919 --> 00:36:15,214
"Homeland return.
I coined that phrase."
525
00:36:15,339 --> 00:36:16,340
Yeah.
526
00:36:16,465 --> 00:36:19,510
And then we have a shot of him
where it sinks in
527
00:36:19,635 --> 00:36:22,096
that maybe that's a really bad thing.
528
00:36:22,221 --> 00:36:23,639
Yeah.
529
00:36:24,973 --> 00:36:29,228
But I'm wondering,
is the heroine a little too young
530
00:36:29,353 --> 00:36:32,481
to pick up on how sinister that is?
531
00:36:32,606 --> 00:36:36,402
Because part of the subtext of this story
532
00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:41,824
is parents not telling their children
what's been going on.
533
00:36:41,949 --> 00:36:45,828
She talks about how her mother has
been troubled and difficult all her life
534
00:36:45,953 --> 00:36:47,538
and has not communicated.
535
00:36:47,663 --> 00:36:51,792
And so, she's having to put together
a personal backstory.
536
00:36:52,584 --> 00:36:55,045
But on the same level,
537
00:36:55,170 --> 00:37:01,844
it's like the whole country has failed
to tell rising generations
538
00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:03,387
what really happened.
539
00:37:03,512 --> 00:37:08,392
Although, actually,
it's mandatory in German education
540
00:37:08,517 --> 00:37:11,687
that they do recognize the country's past.
541
00:37:12,521 --> 00:37:16,608
But it's... you know,
it's actually franzi, the other girl,
542
00:37:16,734 --> 00:37:19,027
who sort of deals with the Nazis,
as it were,
543
00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:21,155
because she has to live
with them every day,
544
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,284
whereas, you know,
Mona has no awareness of this.
545
00:37:25,409 --> 00:37:26,827
Yeah.
546
00:37:40,924 --> 00:37:44,511
We get the sense that she's seeing
something before we see it,
547
00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:49,475
but, again, played very matter-of-factly.
She's not reacting.
548
00:37:55,272 --> 00:37:57,941
The problem is, I mean...
549
00:37:58,066 --> 00:38:00,903
From our point of view,
550
00:38:01,028 --> 00:38:05,115
British homes or apartment complexes
don't have laundry rooms
551
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:11,371
so our only reference points
to laundry rooms are horror films,
552
00:38:11,497 --> 00:38:15,417
because it's always
where bad things happen.
553
00:38:15,542 --> 00:38:17,586
They're always dark
and in the basement.
554
00:38:20,005 --> 00:38:23,759
Yeah, it's never a good
or a happy place.
555
00:38:23,884 --> 00:38:27,846
Yeah. I'm sure there must be
some apartment-living sitcom
556
00:38:27,971 --> 00:38:30,516
where the housewives get together
in the laundry room
557
00:38:30,641 --> 00:38:32,100
and chat and have a good time,
558
00:38:32,226 --> 00:38:35,395
but that's not the image of them
that I've taken away
559
00:38:35,521 --> 00:38:40,025
from my lifetime
of watching horror pictures.
560
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:41,568
Yeah.
561
00:38:50,035 --> 00:38:54,039
I notice Venus likes
these slow, creepy track-in shots,
562
00:38:54,164 --> 00:38:57,751
which is very kubrickian.
563
00:39:01,713 --> 00:39:05,467
But they're always...
It's a visual form of underlining,
564
00:39:05,592 --> 00:39:08,428
but it also somehow
puts you on edge.
565
00:39:08,554 --> 00:39:09,721
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
566
00:39:14,726 --> 00:39:16,562
Do you think there's still a place
567
00:39:16,687 --> 00:39:19,273
for the grown-up horror movie anymore?
568
00:39:19,398 --> 00:39:23,819
Do you think it will ever come back
with the force that it...?
569
00:39:23,944 --> 00:39:30,117
In recent years there's been
a kind of contrived artificial debate
570
00:39:30,242 --> 00:39:34,413
about elevated horror,
which I think is a foolish term.
571
00:39:34,538 --> 00:39:38,125
I mean, what it means is good horror.
572
00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:41,628
And, yeah,
we've always liked good horror.
573
00:39:41,753 --> 00:39:43,171
Yeah.
574
00:39:43,297 --> 00:39:46,884
It's the val lewton approach to horror.
575
00:39:49,344 --> 00:39:53,432
And it strikes me that it's something
that pretty much always works.
576
00:39:53,557 --> 00:39:57,769
And certainly, I would say,
yeah, maybe...
577
00:39:59,062 --> 00:40:03,817
We are talking in late 2021,
578
00:40:03,942 --> 00:40:10,073
so after two very, very unusual years
in the cinema,
579
00:40:10,198 --> 00:40:14,119
where, actually, for a period
it was almost like horror movies
580
00:40:14,244 --> 00:40:17,623
were the only things
that were regularly coming out.
581
00:40:17,748 --> 00:40:21,710
While the studios held back
their big-franchise tent Poles,
582
00:40:21,835 --> 00:40:28,342
we were still getting the regular diet
of good creepy horror pictures.
583
00:40:28,467 --> 00:40:35,891
And streaming services seem
to be doing a lot of adult-skewing horror.
584
00:40:37,267 --> 00:40:41,021
Even slow-burning horror
seems to be something
585
00:40:41,146 --> 00:40:43,774
that's made a bit of a comeback
in recent years.
586
00:40:43,899 --> 00:40:46,902
I think what it is,
it's the kind of horror
587
00:40:47,027 --> 00:40:52,783
that general audiences
can almost be seduced into watching.
588
00:40:52,908 --> 00:40:57,579
People who wouldn't go and see
even, like, a conjuring sequel
589
00:40:57,704 --> 00:41:02,376
will watch something
that's couched as a creepy thriller
590
00:41:02,501 --> 00:41:05,712
with supernatural overtones.
591
00:41:06,797 --> 00:41:10,467
I think if this were a British
or an American project,
592
00:41:10,592 --> 00:41:14,096
it would be a four-part TV
or streaming show, wouldn't it?
593
00:41:15,097 --> 00:41:19,977
I actually think that this particular story
is perfectly suited to its feature length.
594
00:41:20,102 --> 00:41:26,108
- Oh, no, absolutely.
- It feels the right length to me.
595
00:41:26,233 --> 00:41:29,736
And mostly because
it's the kind of mystery horror
596
00:41:29,861 --> 00:41:35,450
that's so focused
on our central character, on Mona.
597
00:41:35,575 --> 00:41:36,576
Yeah.
598
00:41:37,035 --> 00:41:42,249
I think if it were conceived
as a streaming serial,
599
00:41:42,374 --> 00:41:44,501
like, say, the German show dark,
600
00:41:44,626 --> 00:41:48,296
which is another
deep-in-the-woods show,
601
00:41:48,422 --> 00:41:49,923
it would be an ensemble piece.
602
00:41:50,048 --> 00:41:55,137
You'd have much more about
everybody else in this community
603
00:41:55,262 --> 00:41:58,265
and probably dramatized flashbacks.
604
00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:01,893
I mean, we get those
but only in fragmentary form,
605
00:42:02,019 --> 00:42:06,690
but not, as it were, an entire thread
of dramatized flashbacks
606
00:42:06,815 --> 00:42:11,820
leading up to the tragedy
that by now we have worked out.
607
00:42:11,945 --> 00:42:13,113
Yes.
608
00:42:13,238 --> 00:42:18,660
There's still a lot to be said for telling
a compressed story in an hour and a half.
609
00:42:18,785 --> 00:42:25,751
I worry that maybe because that's been
the default of cinema for so long,
610
00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:28,128
it's one of the things we might lose.
611
00:42:28,253 --> 00:42:32,674
It seems strange
that this kind of storytelling
612
00:42:32,799 --> 00:42:37,888
is migrating to, as it were, other media.
613
00:42:38,889 --> 00:42:43,393
And even theatrical horror films
are getting longer
614
00:42:43,518 --> 00:42:47,939
or more franchised or it's like...
615
00:42:50,108 --> 00:42:54,279
Every year you get something
like the night house, don't you?
616
00:42:54,404 --> 00:42:56,948
Something comes along that is...
617
00:42:57,074 --> 00:43:00,660
What I always think is "one and done".
It's not a franchise.
618
00:43:00,786 --> 00:43:05,165
It tells its story, it gets it over with,
you come home terrified.
619
00:43:07,375 --> 00:43:08,794
And that's...
620
00:43:09,377 --> 00:43:14,341
Although this, as a German film,
621
00:43:14,466 --> 00:43:21,098
it doesn't seem to feel obliged
to fit into a genre pigeonhole
622
00:43:21,223 --> 00:43:26,353
the way even upscale
British or American horror...
623
00:43:26,478 --> 00:43:29,773
Yeah. There are a couple
ofjump scares in this,
624
00:43:29,898 --> 00:43:32,359
and there's one or two
really good ones,
625
00:43:32,484 --> 00:43:36,988
but they feel earned, don't they,
rather than posed,
626
00:43:37,114 --> 00:43:40,200
rather than a producer's note
saying, "yeah, we're 20 minutes in."
627
00:43:40,325 --> 00:43:42,994
"We got to jump now."
628
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,331
And, you know, the so-called monster
629
00:43:46,456 --> 00:43:48,959
or the woman that's being positioned
as the monster,
630
00:43:49,084 --> 00:43:53,463
although eventually it's revealed,
there's more to the story than that.
631
00:43:53,588 --> 00:43:59,177
But it never... she's presented
as being odd and unsettling, perhaps,
632
00:43:59,302 --> 00:44:03,640
but never in a, like,
obviously scary kind of way.
633
00:44:03,765 --> 00:44:08,395
She's not even Japanese ghost scary.
634
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:16,278
And actually, the basic narrative of this
is very like a grudge film, isn't it?
635
00:44:16,403 --> 00:44:19,364
Yes, absolutely.
636
00:44:19,489 --> 00:44:23,160
Something wrong was done
to a woman many years ago
637
00:44:23,285 --> 00:44:27,622
and she's still here
and she's never gonna let it drop.
638
00:44:27,747 --> 00:44:32,335
But that's also the basic
witch-in-the-woods story, isn't it?
639
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:35,964
Everybody forgets something
terribly wrong was done to medusa
640
00:44:36,089 --> 00:44:38,508
before she became a monster.
641
00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:46,057
Our icons of female monstrousness
usually have these tragic backstories,
642
00:44:46,183 --> 00:44:50,979
almost invariably involving
a horrible betrayal by a man,
643
00:44:51,104 --> 00:44:52,689
aflhough_.
644
00:44:52,814 --> 00:44:55,734
And often with the compliance
of an older woman.
645
00:44:57,652 --> 00:45:00,989
That's how we get
our female monsters.
646
00:45:01,114 --> 00:45:02,532
What's interesting about this
647
00:45:02,657 --> 00:45:07,495
is that it shows how the Nazis
appropriate that myth
648
00:45:07,621 --> 00:45:09,247
and turn it into something...
649
00:45:09,372 --> 00:45:14,961
You know, a scary story
about why you should be afraid of women.
650
00:45:15,086 --> 00:45:18,506
It shows how
that sort of myth-making works.
651
00:45:18,632 --> 00:45:25,472
And I always like it when horror films
address the underlying myths
652
00:45:25,597 --> 00:45:28,225
and start asking the questions.
653
00:45:28,350 --> 00:45:32,437
And the risk there is
you take away the scariness.
654
00:45:32,562 --> 00:45:33,772
Yes.
655
00:45:33,897 --> 00:45:40,904
Because here the threat does extend
to essentially innocent people,
656
00:45:41,029 --> 00:45:44,950
but our major victims are people
that we would necessarily tag as bad.
657
00:45:45,075 --> 00:45:46,910
Yeah.
658
00:45:47,035 --> 00:45:51,414
And, in fact, they don't even try and make
the three guys who killed themselves
659
00:45:51,539 --> 00:45:53,917
rounded, semi-sympathetic characters.
660
00:45:54,042 --> 00:45:58,213
They're just people who did a bad thing
and they're dead.
661
00:45:58,338 --> 00:46:02,092
But we're still having to deal
with the consequences of the bad thing.
662
00:46:02,217 --> 00:46:05,971
Yes, and when you actually see them
in the flesh, as it were, in the movie,
663
00:46:06,096 --> 00:46:10,267
they have got boar masks on,
they're these animals.
664
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:13,979
And here we've gone from...
665
00:46:14,104 --> 00:46:17,691
It's another lynchian thing, isn't it,
the disturbing nightclub sequence
666
00:46:17,816 --> 00:46:20,110
into the, "what?".
667
00:46:24,990 --> 00:46:30,996
And this, I think, is something
that I first noticed in Japanese films,
668
00:46:31,121 --> 00:46:35,083
the idea that female contortionists
are scary.
669
00:46:35,208 --> 00:46:43,208
I know that the performers
who played these roles...
670
00:46:52,851 --> 00:46:57,439
The actress is agata buzek,
who's got a clutch of things...
671
00:46:57,564 --> 00:47:02,319
But I wonder if she was cast in this
because she could do that.
672
00:47:03,445 --> 00:47:06,614
And, in fact, all of the actors do this,
it's not just...
673
00:47:06,740 --> 00:47:10,744
Although she's the one that moves
most distinctively, but yeah.
674
00:47:13,413 --> 00:47:18,835
There are actually some performers
who now specialize
675
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,089
in doing roles like this.
676
00:47:23,214 --> 00:47:30,722
But we are, I don't know, 20 years
into the "contortionists are scary"...
677
00:47:30,847 --> 00:47:34,684
So we have the...
678
00:47:34,809 --> 00:47:37,020
Bonnie Aarons
is the American woman,
679
00:47:37,145 --> 00:47:40,273
but there's also Javier botet,
680
00:47:40,398 --> 00:47:44,819
who is kind of the master
of those roles.
681
00:47:44,944 --> 00:47:51,201
And our good friend James swanton
is picking up...
682
00:47:51,326 --> 00:47:53,370
Hopefully the new generation.
683
00:47:53,495 --> 00:47:55,080
Yeah.
684
00:47:55,205 --> 00:47:59,209
And grace ker, who we work with
on stage, does this stuff too.
685
00:47:59,334 --> 00:48:02,379
Yeah, it's a very distinct set of skills.
686
00:48:02,504 --> 00:48:04,047
Yes!
687
00:48:04,923 --> 00:48:09,844
And somehow it's creepier
than the cg! Effects that they replaced.
688
00:48:09,969 --> 00:48:11,388
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
689
00:48:12,597 --> 00:48:15,350
Interesting how this appears
to be Mona's dream,
690
00:48:15,475 --> 00:48:19,938
and yet we're cutting back and forth
with this and the mother.
691
00:48:21,856 --> 00:48:24,651
There is the possibility
that the mother is...
692
00:48:24,776 --> 00:48:28,446
I mean... and in fact,
that's also her grandmother.
693
00:48:28,571 --> 00:48:29,697
Yes.
694
00:48:32,033 --> 00:48:37,956
So it's a dream being passed
down the female line with a...
695
00:48:39,457 --> 00:48:44,003
I suppose the eroticism
is a misdirection.
696
00:48:44,129 --> 00:48:46,631
Although, even though
that's a full-contact nude scene,
697
00:48:46,756 --> 00:48:48,842
it's not particularly sexy.
698
00:48:48,967 --> 00:48:54,597
It's more like watching
those strange pieces of modern dance.
699
00:48:54,722 --> 00:48:59,978
It's designed to disturb
rather than arouse.
700
00:49:04,023 --> 00:49:06,025
And this poor woman.
701
00:49:06,151 --> 00:49:07,652
Again, it's sort of interesting
702
00:49:07,777 --> 00:49:11,448
that when that pair of characters
are introduced in the film,
703
00:49:11,573 --> 00:49:15,577
she seems to be being presented
as this bitchy older woman
704
00:49:15,702 --> 00:49:17,454
and he's the affable nice guy.
705
00:49:17,579 --> 00:49:20,331
And then it turns out
she's lived this horrendous existence.
706
00:49:20,457 --> 00:49:23,460
That's right.
She has been fuming all these years.
707
00:49:23,585 --> 00:49:25,003
Yeah.
708
00:49:35,305 --> 00:49:39,476
Yeah, and the actress
is Marion kracht,
709
00:49:39,601 --> 00:49:43,605
who was in lady Dracula in 1977.
710
00:49:43,730 --> 00:49:46,149
Which I'm sure you're familiar with!
711
00:49:46,274 --> 00:49:54,274
It's an obscure vampire comedy
from the '70s with...
712
00:49:59,537 --> 00:50:04,876
Evelyne kraft is the lead
and Stephen Boyd plays Dracula, but...
713
00:50:10,256 --> 00:50:11,799
Marion kracht is...
714
00:50:11,925 --> 00:50:15,178
I mean, actually,
she's very striking in it
715
00:50:15,303 --> 00:50:18,431
and she's worked steadily ever since.
716
00:50:18,556 --> 00:50:25,271
This, I have to say, is the film
I'm going to remember her for, actually.
717
00:50:44,332 --> 00:50:46,167
There's this moment
where she's deciding
718
00:50:46,292 --> 00:50:48,294
whether to let him
finally strangle himself.
719
00:50:48,419 --> 00:50:51,214
Yes, that's right, yeah.
720
00:50:51,339 --> 00:50:53,174
You kind of think, "what is she doing?",
721
00:50:53,299 --> 00:50:57,136
and then obviously it becomes clear
why she hesitates.
722
00:50:57,262 --> 00:50:58,513
Yeah.
723
00:51:01,683 --> 00:51:05,728
She's been having to do this
every night for decades.
724
00:51:25,248 --> 00:51:26,666
And then...
725
00:51:35,883 --> 00:51:39,429
But I suppose we do think,
"she could have just let him kill himself."
726
00:51:39,554 --> 00:51:46,227
It's like she has been
prevailed a lot on to delay this.
727
00:51:50,481 --> 00:51:52,900
And this is another odd bit.
728
00:51:53,026 --> 00:51:54,444
Yeah.
729
00:51:56,863 --> 00:52:00,700
It's one of those sort of fakeouts,
which are fairly commonplace
730
00:52:00,825 --> 00:52:04,495
in horror movies related to dreams,
but it's not a scare.
731
00:52:04,621 --> 00:52:09,626
Yeah, it's... at first you think
that that's a real development.
732
00:52:09,751 --> 00:52:12,420
Then it's just taken back.
733
00:52:14,631 --> 00:52:17,717
It does make me wonder
whether Michael Venus' favorite film
734
00:52:17,842 --> 00:52:19,719
is an American werewolf in London,
735
00:52:19,844 --> 00:52:27,352
because that also has
a fake waking-up sequence.
736
00:52:27,477 --> 00:52:28,895
Yeah.
737
00:52:33,358 --> 00:52:38,946
And actually, this is a thing
that I've experienced in real hotels,
738
00:52:39,072 --> 00:52:43,660
but I can't remember it being
in any hotel horror movie much,
739
00:52:43,785 --> 00:52:49,207
the fact that people have access
to your room, your stuff.
740
00:52:49,332 --> 00:52:54,087
And sometimes they can turn up
when you really aren't expecting them.
741
00:52:54,212 --> 00:52:57,590
They're supposed to knock and say,
"room service", or whatever.
742
00:52:57,715 --> 00:53:02,845
But guys like this who basically
think of this as their space
743
00:53:02,970 --> 00:53:07,809
will not recognize the temporary space
that you have rented from them,
744
00:53:07,934 --> 00:53:09,644
leased from them, as yours.
745
00:53:09,769 --> 00:53:12,355
No, absolutely. I had a landlord
that would do that
746
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,233
back in the days when I used
to live in a bedsit in London,
747
00:53:15,358 --> 00:53:17,944
who would just let himself into my bedsit.
748
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:22,824
No, it's a commonplace violation, isn't it?
749
00:53:22,949 --> 00:53:24,283
Yeah.
750
00:53:24,409 --> 00:53:27,745
And here we are
with the horror of German breakfast.
751
00:53:27,870 --> 00:53:29,622
Yeah.
752
00:53:41,634 --> 00:53:43,678
The thing is, that's probably delicious.
753
00:53:43,803 --> 00:53:45,221
I was going to say.
754
00:53:45,346 --> 00:53:48,891
It's just it rapidly is made to look
less than delicious
755
00:53:49,016 --> 00:53:52,019
with what's happens in a few moments.
756
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,482
Just for the family.
757
00:53:58,860 --> 00:54:01,279
Don't you like it?
758
00:54:01,404 --> 00:54:03,823
I do. It's just a bit much
on an empty stomach.
759
00:54:03,948 --> 00:54:08,661
Yes, the little carved pigs
and the "just for the family" line,
760
00:54:08,786 --> 00:54:11,038
it's all tying together.
761
00:54:12,290 --> 00:54:15,710
We've talked before
about our love of clues.
762
00:54:15,835 --> 00:54:20,381
- Yes, yes.
- And plot points.
763
00:54:20,506 --> 00:54:25,803
The way it all slowly comes together.
764
00:54:25,928 --> 00:54:29,182
And even the camera move there
to remind us
765
00:54:29,307 --> 00:54:31,350
he did that, those pigs are his.
766
00:54:35,021 --> 00:54:40,610
And I wonder if it's a sort of storytelling
that you don't see as much these days.
767
00:54:40,735 --> 00:54:43,988
There seems to be a constant fear,
certainly in mainstream cinema,
768
00:54:44,113 --> 00:54:49,327
of the audience getting lost,
so things have to be underlined a lot.
769
00:54:49,452 --> 00:54:53,080
I do think that that is a...
770
00:54:53,206 --> 00:54:58,669
It's something that's an issue
with genre cinema
771
00:55:00,087 --> 00:55:02,799
that is, I don't want to say
dumbed down,
772
00:55:02,924 --> 00:55:06,469
but it's that sense
that they want everything explicable.
773
00:55:06,594 --> 00:55:10,848
And I think that European culture
774
00:55:10,973 --> 00:55:16,979
and France, Germany, Italy,
scandinavia, or whatever,
775
00:55:17,104 --> 00:55:24,904
they produce plenty of horror and crime
and science-fiction, romcoms, whatever,
776
00:55:25,029 --> 00:55:28,574
but they all tend to assume
that they're for grown-ups,
777
00:55:28,699 --> 00:55:33,621
and they bend over backwards
not to insult the audience.
778
00:55:33,746 --> 00:55:38,292
And the downside is sometimes
you do get films that are too obscure,
779
00:55:38,417 --> 00:55:44,590
particularly if you don't pick up
on all the cultural references
780
00:55:44,715 --> 00:55:47,301
because you're not part
of the culture.
781
00:55:47,426 --> 00:55:54,392
We've seen films that are completely
understood by their audiences
782
00:55:54,517 --> 00:55:56,519
but are impenetrable to us.
783
00:55:56,644 --> 00:56:01,232
Yeah, the deadly sausage-eating.
784
00:56:02,191 --> 00:56:04,694
You're never gonna look
at your fry-up the same way.
785
00:56:04,819 --> 00:56:05,903
Yeah.
786
00:56:08,364 --> 00:56:14,954
And this is kind of disturbing because
it's a betrayal of us, the audience.
787
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:17,915
We thought this was
the sensible character,
788
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,795
the character who was untouched
and untouchable within the story.
789
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:28,801
Somebody who might be endangered
but would never go off the rails like this.
790
00:56:30,887 --> 00:56:33,598
I suppose we had her pegged by now
as a final girl,
791
00:56:33,723 --> 00:56:35,641
which she is,
792
00:56:36,225 --> 00:56:39,770
but this kind of stuff is not...
793
00:56:42,523 --> 00:56:46,444
If you tried to sell this to an
American exec, you'd get notes! Yeah.
794
00:56:49,614 --> 00:56:54,702
And that is a great shot, isn't it?
795
00:57:05,254 --> 00:57:08,090
Although that dessert
looks great to me.
796
00:57:17,350 --> 00:57:18,601
Don't make it even worse.
797
00:57:18,726 --> 00:57:21,562
I like that.
"Don't make it even worse."
798
00:57:21,687 --> 00:57:23,105
Yeah.
799
00:57:24,690 --> 00:57:28,194
And now we see him,
you know, sort of revealed.
800
00:57:28,319 --> 00:57:29,403
Yeah.
801
00:57:33,741 --> 00:57:39,372
The compulsion to strangle seems
to have been the part of the curse he got.
802
00:57:45,044 --> 00:57:51,425
And this guy, the kind of junior bad guy,
is so utterly feckless, isn't he?
803
00:57:51,550 --> 00:57:58,265
And I think that, again, it's something
you see in dynastic evil, isn't it?
804
00:57:58,391 --> 00:58:02,853
Where eventually you get a generation
who are raised in evil
805
00:58:02,979 --> 00:58:05,773
but are also just useless.
806
00:58:05,898 --> 00:58:09,735
And sometimes they can be
the scariest people.
807
00:58:09,860 --> 00:58:12,863
- You know, Kim jong-UN is one.
- Right, yeah.
808
00:58:13,990 --> 00:58:19,245
People who inherit a position
of power or authority
809
00:58:19,370 --> 00:58:21,372
that they've done nothing to earn
810
00:58:21,497 --> 00:58:25,126
and yet they're sometimes capable
of the worst atrocities
811
00:58:25,251 --> 00:58:29,088
simply to prove that they're part of...
They're on side.
812
00:58:30,089 --> 00:58:34,593
And obviously they've grown up
813
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:39,432
not really having to work too hard
for what they get.
814
00:58:39,557 --> 00:58:44,895
You can see this guy is not going
to be able to lead a fascist movement.
815
00:58:45,021 --> 00:58:51,360
Any future is not going to exist past him.
816
00:59:02,204 --> 00:59:03,789
Christoph.
817
00:59:04,331 --> 00:59:07,168
And is this the moment
we realize that it's the son?
818
00:59:07,293 --> 00:59:10,046
Yeah. I think it's never really
made clear before that.
819
00:59:10,171 --> 00:59:13,591
But because this community
only has one family...
820
00:59:13,716 --> 00:59:16,302
Yes, who run everything!
821
00:59:18,262 --> 00:59:23,851
But it's another... because, obviously,
he has gone in another direction from...
822
00:59:23,976 --> 00:59:31,025
Yeah, he has a potential
to escape from the past,
823
00:59:31,150 --> 00:59:34,487
almost because he seems unaware of it.
824
00:59:36,530 --> 00:59:42,703
And yet, he's technically the heir
of all this, isn't he?
825
00:59:43,996 --> 00:59:47,958
It also seems to be now being positioned
as he's the white knight
826
00:59:48,084 --> 00:59:51,087
who's gonna come to the rescue
and yet doesn't really.
827
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:59,220
This is a film that only seems
to recognize female agency.
828
00:59:59,345 --> 01:00:01,764
Yes.
829
01:00:01,889 --> 01:00:05,935
Where all the men
are variously useless.
830
01:00:06,811 --> 01:00:14,811
And even the women
who are in the wrong are stronger.
831
01:00:16,737 --> 01:00:18,322
Yes.
832
01:00:18,447 --> 01:00:21,617
That's fine.
Now put the tablecloths on them.
833
01:00:21,742 --> 01:00:24,203
Yes, very good.
834
01:00:24,328 --> 01:00:28,415
And this is what he's been actually
working on all along, isn't it?
835
01:00:28,541 --> 01:00:32,878
It's his mayoral campaign,
which seems to be rooted
836
01:00:33,003 --> 01:00:38,801
in a sort of resurgent fascist
or right-wing...
837
01:00:38,926 --> 01:00:43,013
And actually, I mean,
all throughout Europe, including britain
838
01:00:43,139 --> 01:00:47,143
and indeed america,
have had these sort of...
839
01:00:48,144 --> 01:00:51,355
They can't call themselves Nazis,
840
01:00:53,232 --> 01:00:56,735
but they're pretty close.
841
01:00:56,861 --> 01:01:00,281
But I like how he positions it
in kind of a village-hall setting.
842
01:01:00,406 --> 01:01:04,493
It's sort of like this is where
the Nazi uprising is going on,
843
01:01:04,618 --> 01:01:07,037
in the local community center
and village hall.
844
01:01:07,163 --> 01:01:09,915
Yeah, but...
845
01:01:11,542 --> 01:01:17,381
If there's an issue I would take
with this film
846
01:01:17,506 --> 01:01:20,926
it's that I don't think
it takes fascism seriously enough.
847
01:01:21,051 --> 01:01:24,054
It was made a couple of years ago,
although it's a modern film.
848
01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:28,517
I think one of the lessons
of the last two or three years
849
01:01:28,642 --> 01:01:33,063
is that, yes, these people are ridiculous,
but they are so dangerous.
850
01:01:33,189 --> 01:01:35,316
Yeah, perhaps.
851
01:01:35,441 --> 01:01:37,401
I think that would be felt even more...
852
01:01:37,526 --> 01:01:39,445
They also don't like being laughed at
853
01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:42,907
and I think that can be
quite an effective weapon.
854
01:01:49,705 --> 01:01:53,834
And I do kind of like
the way it positions...
855
01:01:53,959 --> 01:01:57,546
Obviously, you know,
he is the main Nazi character
856
01:01:57,671 --> 01:01:59,506
and it positions him as a threat
857
01:01:59,632 --> 01:02:02,134
and then immediately proceeds
to undercut that
858
01:02:02,259 --> 01:02:05,221
by making them all look ridiculous.
859
01:02:05,346 --> 01:02:07,765
I do think that's kind of interesting.
860
01:02:14,188 --> 01:02:17,399
There is a bit of "tomorrow belongs to me"
in that sort of music.
861
01:02:17,524 --> 01:02:23,072
It's like, let's say,
the two greatest fascist anthems,
862
01:02:23,197 --> 01:02:25,741
"tomorrow belongs to me"
and "springtime for Hitler",
863
01:02:25,866 --> 01:02:28,994
both written by Jews.
864
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:32,790
Both absolutely skewer the...
865
01:02:35,459 --> 01:02:37,962
And in very different ways.
866
01:02:38,087 --> 01:02:42,716
Those two sequences
absolutely have made...
867
01:02:42,841 --> 01:02:48,555
Have probably made actual, straight-up,
full-strength nazism impossible
868
01:02:48,681 --> 01:02:53,811
for the rest of the century,
just because it's so absurd.
869
01:02:56,814 --> 01:03:00,359
I think that this film at least...
870
01:03:00,484 --> 01:03:03,404
This guy is loathsome and disgusting,
871
01:03:03,529 --> 01:03:05,990
but it gives him some points.
872
01:03:06,115 --> 01:03:09,201
There's the moment where's he sat there
listening to the choir
873
01:03:09,326 --> 01:03:13,080
and he's visibly moved
but not going...
874
01:03:13,205 --> 01:03:15,040
There has to be some sense
875
01:03:15,165 --> 01:03:19,712
that he's not just a complete
self-serving bad guy.
876
01:03:19,837 --> 01:03:21,338
Yeah.
877
01:03:21,463 --> 01:03:25,384
There's a core of conviction.
878
01:03:25,509 --> 01:03:30,639
It may be hateful,
but there is something there.
879
01:03:30,764 --> 01:03:38,397
And again, I think that that's something
that quite often we overlook at our peril.
880
01:03:38,522 --> 01:03:40,607
Yes.
881
01:03:40,733 --> 01:03:43,193
The people are not just...
882
01:03:43,319 --> 01:03:47,031
Bad guys don't think they're bad.
883
01:03:47,156 --> 01:03:52,661
People are not just reviving
all these terrible attitudes as a joke.
884
01:03:52,786 --> 01:03:54,621
They really mean it.
885
01:03:55,581 --> 01:04:00,252
Here we have our dead guys
in the flesh, as it were, but...
886
01:04:05,132 --> 01:04:08,552
Animal masks have been a big thing
in folk horror, haven't they?
887
01:04:08,677 --> 01:04:13,265
It's almost... it's a signifier
that's perhaps overdone,
888
01:04:13,390 --> 01:04:15,309
although it seems always to work.
889
01:04:15,434 --> 01:04:19,271
Yeah, that's the thing. There is
something creepy about them still.
890
01:04:21,231 --> 01:04:24,735
And I suppose it is at least woven
into the fabric of the film.
891
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:27,571
We have the imagery of the boar
892
01:04:27,696 --> 01:04:29,573
and now we sort of understand why.
893
01:04:29,698 --> 01:04:31,700
And we even saw him carving little ones.
894
01:04:31,825 --> 01:04:37,456
So there's a kind of a feel to it.
895
01:04:39,208 --> 01:04:43,295
I would have thought
that maybe this is an image
896
01:04:43,420 --> 01:04:46,715
that has been used too often,
but it seems to be inexhaustible.
897
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:48,675
It's always scary.
898
01:04:50,803 --> 01:04:52,513
And yet, here at the heart of it,
899
01:04:52,638 --> 01:04:56,767
we find that the witch
who lives in the woods is actually good.
900
01:04:56,892 --> 01:04:59,353
Yes! A wronged woman.
901
01:04:59,478 --> 01:05:00,813
Yeah.
902
01:05:04,358 --> 01:05:09,363
And it's this strange thing of the heroine
actually going back into a flashback
903
01:05:09,488 --> 01:05:12,991
and being there and observing it.
904
01:05:13,117 --> 01:05:17,329
I always associate it
as a stratagem with Annie hall
905
01:05:17,454 --> 01:05:21,417
where it's used brilliantly
for comedy effect.
906
01:05:21,542 --> 01:05:25,170
I was thinking more... it reminded me
of the dead zone a bit,
907
01:05:25,295 --> 01:05:27,881
the way cronenberg has him
present in his own visions.
908
01:05:28,006 --> 01:05:29,425
Yeah...
909
01:05:30,092 --> 01:05:34,638
Whereas with this
she's interacting with her visions.
910
01:05:34,763 --> 01:05:36,932
Isuppose_.
Yeah, there's a mobile phone.
911
01:05:37,057 --> 01:05:42,479
So this is this year,
or, well, yeah, 2019.
912
01:05:42,604 --> 01:05:44,773
I see we're before the great hiatus.
913
01:05:58,745 --> 01:06:01,999
Do you think Sandra hiiller
got off easy in this?
914
01:06:02,124 --> 01:06:05,919
Yeah. You basicallyjust have
to be asleep for half the movie!
915
01:06:06,044 --> 01:06:10,090
The biggest-name performer in it.
916
01:06:10,215 --> 01:06:14,470
Someone who's got a bit
of a tailwind behind her, although she's...
917
01:06:14,595 --> 01:06:16,889
I doubt if she'd define herself
as a movie star,
918
01:06:17,014 --> 01:06:23,103
but she's obviously
a substantial actress in Germany
919
01:06:24,396 --> 01:06:27,941
and must have been a get
for this project.
920
01:06:31,195 --> 01:06:35,032
What's interesting about this scene
where everything is revealed is
921
01:06:35,157 --> 01:06:39,328
that the moment where we're told
that that baby is, in fact, her mother
922
01:06:39,453 --> 01:06:42,456
is kind of thrown away almost.
923
01:06:47,586 --> 01:06:49,087
And it's...
924
01:06:49,213 --> 01:06:55,177
I know that Venus has talked
about grimm's fairy tales
925
01:06:55,302 --> 01:06:57,137
and how much is taken from there,
926
01:06:57,262 --> 01:07:01,683
but this is sleeping beauty, isn't it?
927
01:07:01,808 --> 01:07:04,561
The woodcutter takes the baby
into the woods
928
01:07:04,686 --> 01:07:08,148
and he's told to kill it but doesn't.
929
01:07:13,111 --> 01:07:18,784
It's actually that moment
of soft-heartedness that makes the...
930
01:07:22,996 --> 01:07:26,667
Although, as we see, it's actually his...
931
01:07:26,792 --> 01:07:32,381
It's the wife
that saves the child in the end.
932
01:07:32,506 --> 01:07:35,842
He is utterly ruthless
about it, isn't he?
933
01:07:42,975 --> 01:07:46,144
I think she's very strong
in actually not a huge role.
934
01:07:46,270 --> 01:07:47,646
Yeah.
935
01:07:47,771 --> 01:07:52,109
I mean, she's obviously
very sort of striking-looking, but...
936
01:07:54,778 --> 01:07:56,947
Doesn't overdo it either.
937
01:08:01,326 --> 01:08:05,330
And the interaction
with the future granddaughter...
938
01:08:05,455 --> 01:08:07,124
Yes.
939
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:12,254
And this, I think,
is the funniest moment in the film
940
01:08:12,379 --> 01:08:15,799
and yet, it's actually quite disturbing.
941
01:08:15,924 --> 01:08:17,843
She's like,
"I'm just closing the Nazis."
942
01:08:17,968 --> 01:08:20,012
Yeah.
943
01:08:22,389 --> 01:08:24,182
Yeah, and that long pause.
944
01:08:24,308 --> 01:08:26,268
"Don't touch the white wine."
945
01:08:26,393 --> 01:08:27,603
Yeah, that's right.
946
01:08:41,783 --> 01:08:48,665
Because, obviously, this renders
our actual existential threat ridiculous.
947
01:08:52,169 --> 01:08:54,671
And it's another moment of...
948
01:08:54,796 --> 01:08:58,175
I mean, it parallels the flashback.
949
01:08:58,300 --> 01:09:01,887
Again, we've been reaching
across the generations
950
01:09:02,012 --> 01:09:05,265
and finding
a perhaps unexpected kinship.
951
01:09:05,390 --> 01:09:06,516
Yeah.
952
01:09:08,935 --> 01:09:13,357
I'm assuming that franzi
isn't related in some way,
953
01:09:13,482 --> 01:09:18,487
because she seems to be positioned
as the girlfriend of christoph.
954
01:09:18,612 --> 01:09:21,657
Oh, extra, extra big dose in the beer!
955
01:09:23,367 --> 01:09:28,789
But I mean, she's... yeah,
presumably going to join the...
956
01:09:28,914 --> 01:09:33,669
Yeah, it's the moment where it's revealed
that there's suddenly more to her.
957
01:09:33,794 --> 01:09:37,798
It's before we see
that she actually saved the baby, but...
958
01:09:37,923 --> 01:09:39,341
Otto!
959
01:09:42,594 --> 01:09:43,804
Thanks.
960
01:09:45,514 --> 01:09:48,350
I'm delighted to welcome...
961
01:09:49,267 --> 01:09:53,397
The subtitles of
"the first big slaughter festival".
962
01:09:53,522 --> 01:09:56,358
I think it's something
like schlachtfest, isn't it,
963
01:09:56,483 --> 01:10:01,822
which probably isn't quite
as disturbing-sounding as...
964
01:10:03,156 --> 01:10:04,574
Yeah.
965
01:10:06,451 --> 01:10:10,288
I see that there are some women
among the Nazis.
966
01:10:10,414 --> 01:10:18,046
But they're all wives and mothers
and tag-along rather than active.
967
01:10:23,009 --> 01:10:26,847
And it is mostly these guys
who are too young
968
01:10:26,972 --> 01:10:30,308
to have been around
in the second world war.
969
01:10:30,434 --> 01:10:36,106
They are people who would have lived
through the communist period.
970
01:10:39,151 --> 01:10:43,822
Although, of course, that ended
over 30 years ago now.
971
01:10:44,656 --> 01:10:46,658
Yes! Fight!
972
01:10:46,783 --> 01:10:48,076
Fight!
973
01:10:49,911 --> 01:10:51,204
To stainbach!
974
01:10:51,329 --> 01:10:53,498
To stainbach!
975
01:10:54,416 --> 01:10:57,461
But, I mean, it is careful,
his speech, as you say.
976
01:10:57,586 --> 01:11:03,216
It's not just, you know...
Wanton cartoon villainy.
977
01:11:03,341 --> 01:11:06,428
He's making actual points
about their community
978
01:11:06,553 --> 01:11:10,140
and making you understand
why this might appeal to people.
979
01:11:10,265 --> 01:11:14,519
Yeah. And why it has appealed
to so many people across Europe
980
01:11:14,644 --> 01:11:17,814
and certainly in britain
in the last couple of years
981
01:11:17,939 --> 01:11:21,359
and definitely in america,
this kind of pitch.
982
01:11:21,485 --> 01:11:24,488
The strange thing is
this guy's pitch is subtler
983
01:11:24,613 --> 01:11:29,493
than the pitch extreme right-wingers
have used successfully,
984
01:11:29,618 --> 01:11:34,748
because he doesn't talk much
about othering and the hatred,
985
01:11:34,873 --> 01:11:41,379
which actually right-wing politicians
in the west have been doing just nakedly
986
01:11:41,505 --> 01:11:43,006
in the last couple of years,
987
01:11:43,131 --> 01:11:47,093
have nakedly picked on
any number of groups of people
988
01:11:47,219 --> 01:11:53,308
to have a go at and, what they say,
"rally the base" or "own the libs" or...
989
01:11:55,852 --> 01:12:00,524
It's odd, he's the villain of this film,
but he's a better person
990
01:12:00,649 --> 01:12:05,070
than the leaders of many
right-wing parties across the world.
991
01:12:06,655 --> 01:12:14,655
I suppose this particular cell or cabal
is founded on misogyny.
992
01:12:18,500 --> 01:12:23,922
It's founded on the literal othering
of a Polish woman.
993
01:12:24,047 --> 01:12:28,176
Yes, that they've now turned
into a scary fairytale.
994
01:12:28,301 --> 01:12:34,766
And it's almost like
the film doesn't need to have him, say,
995
01:12:34,891 --> 01:12:37,310
give a speech about
how feminism has ruined...
996
01:12:40,772 --> 01:12:42,732
The spirit of Germany or whatever.
997
01:12:42,858 --> 01:12:48,572
Although frankly, you do hear
those speeches from far-right politicians
998
01:12:50,699 --> 01:12:55,537
doing all that "back to the kitchen" stuff.
999
01:12:58,582 --> 01:13:02,127
Very good direction
of the extras here.
1000
01:13:04,129 --> 01:13:07,966
Because it only takes one to ruin this.
1001
01:13:14,973 --> 01:13:18,518
Yeah, and he starting
to do the gestures and the voice.
1002
01:13:19,728 --> 01:13:20,729
Yeah.
1003
01:13:26,568 --> 01:13:29,404
But interestingly,
because he's, you know...
1004
01:13:30,572 --> 01:13:31,698
Been closed.
1005
01:13:31,823 --> 01:13:33,783
Because he's tripping, yeah.
1006
01:13:33,909 --> 01:13:35,744
It's all coming out now that he's...
1007
01:13:35,869 --> 01:13:37,120
I suppose it's the idea
1008
01:13:37,245 --> 01:13:41,124
that people reveal themselves
when they put the masks on.
1009
01:13:44,586 --> 01:13:46,504
And it's a daring strategy
1010
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:51,968
that now our main heroine is
as immobilized as our secondary heroine.
1011
01:14:02,062 --> 01:14:07,984
And that's the moment where we know
this guy is beyond redemption.
1012
01:14:08,109 --> 01:14:09,444
Any flicker of sympathy
1013
01:14:09,569 --> 01:14:13,615
or sense that we've had of him
as a ridiculous figure just goes.
1014
01:14:13,740 --> 01:14:15,408
Yeah.
1015
01:14:16,618 --> 01:14:19,871
Especially because we're not quite sure
whether she's in danger as well,
1016
01:14:19,996 --> 01:14:22,916
because it's unclear as to whether
this is a dream or a vision.
1017
01:14:23,041 --> 01:14:27,462
She's sort of transported back.
Yeah, she might die in a flashback
1018
01:14:27,587 --> 01:14:30,256
in the way that people say
that you can die in a dream
1019
01:14:30,382 --> 01:14:33,009
or die in your sleep.
1020
01:14:33,134 --> 01:14:37,597
And actually that's one of the things
about the nightmare,
1021
01:14:37,722 --> 01:14:43,395
that idea that sleep paralysis
is actually a dangerous condition
1022
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,690
because, after all, if people die that way,
they can't tell you.
1023
01:14:46,815 --> 01:14:52,946
And actually, in post-mortem,
it's really difficult to identify,
1024
01:14:53,071 --> 01:14:56,700
but that may well be a factor.
1025
01:14:56,825 --> 01:14:58,910
They tend to give it...
1026
01:15:01,913 --> 01:15:03,748
An acronym
to make it sound like...
1027
01:15:03,873 --> 01:15:07,127
Sudden unexplained death
in sleep: Suds.
1028
01:15:07,252 --> 01:15:11,131
"We'll give it a name that basically admits
we don't know what it is."
1029
01:15:18,763 --> 01:15:23,018
And this is the thing, of course,
that politicians never do.
1030
01:15:30,358 --> 01:15:33,486
Of course, the terrifying thing is
he would probably win.
1031
01:15:38,575 --> 01:15:42,078
It's actually a very good display
of stoned acting,
1032
01:15:42,203 --> 01:15:45,790
which is, again, something
that people think is easy.
1033
01:15:45,915 --> 01:15:47,333
Yes.
1034
01:15:51,796 --> 01:15:57,218
I assume that there was a notice saying
this film contains flashing lights earlier.
1035
01:15:57,343 --> 01:16:00,555
But this is a rare instance
of flashing lights actually used
1036
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,641
as an aggressive weapon.
1037
01:16:20,784 --> 01:16:25,121
The revelation that she's been
the heroine all along, really.
1038
01:16:25,246 --> 01:16:26,581
Yeah.
1039
01:16:37,884 --> 01:16:39,969
But there is a bit of suspense as well.
1040
01:16:40,095 --> 01:16:45,308
It's building that tension as to:
Is she's going to die in the dream?
1041
01:16:55,693 --> 01:16:57,862
Logically, in the past the danger is over.
1042
01:16:57,987 --> 01:16:59,489
Yeah.
1043
01:17:01,116 --> 01:17:02,992
I suppose she could still choke, but...
1044
01:17:14,462 --> 01:17:18,133
And here we've been exploded
into another level of reality.
1045
01:17:18,258 --> 01:17:19,425
Yes!
1046
01:17:19,551 --> 01:17:22,595
Now it's that sort of
Chinese box structure
1047
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:26,599
where you don't really know
at what point you're in reality anymore.
1048
01:17:33,773 --> 01:17:36,651
And it's an impossible photograph.
1049
01:17:38,069 --> 01:17:42,782
Which is almost a convention
in horror cinema, isn't it?
1050
01:17:42,907 --> 01:17:44,909
Obviously the shining has one.
1051
01:17:45,660 --> 01:17:50,081
Burnt offerings
has impossible photographs.
1052
01:17:55,170 --> 01:18:01,718
I assume that it's a signifier
of this being a fantasy nethennorld
1053
01:18:01,843 --> 01:18:04,220
where she can tour the past.
1054
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,933
You go further than your mother
ever dared to go.
1055
01:18:12,645 --> 01:18:15,023
And this is sort of a...
1056
01:18:15,857 --> 01:18:19,485
Whatever this particular
adjunct to reality is
1057
01:18:19,611 --> 01:18:23,573
seems to be warm and sisterly,
1058
01:18:23,698 --> 01:18:27,702
but actually trude's
kind of menacing still, isn't she?
1059
01:18:29,078 --> 01:18:30,914
There's still a bit of a...
1060
01:18:34,876 --> 01:18:36,628
A witchiness to her.
1061
01:18:36,753 --> 01:18:39,464
She essentially basically wants her
to be the instrument
1062
01:18:39,589 --> 01:18:42,675
by which she can finish
enacting her revenge.
1063
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:47,388
Yeah. Just because the guy's been
strapping himself to his bed...
1064
01:18:47,513 --> 01:18:49,641
She's plan b.
1065
01:18:49,766 --> 01:18:52,769
Her bloodline will return.
1066
01:18:58,650 --> 01:19:02,403
Mona just wants to save her mother
and that's really all it's about.
1067
01:19:04,072 --> 01:19:10,245
But all this talk about, "it ends with him
and the bloodline is over", it's not!
1068
01:19:10,370 --> 01:19:12,538
Yeah.
1069
01:19:12,664 --> 01:19:20,046
Because certainly her bloodline endures,
and so does his, but in...
1070
01:19:21,339 --> 01:19:24,926
With the dominance
of the mother in the family
1071
01:19:25,051 --> 01:19:32,392
we presume that's an optimistic
or a healing notion,
1072
01:19:32,517 --> 01:19:35,603
that we can get past these awful guys
1073
01:19:35,728 --> 01:19:39,857
who've been holding Europe back
for so long.
1074
01:19:40,817 --> 01:19:43,069
I would like to think that that was true.
1075
01:19:43,194 --> 01:19:45,113
Let's hope.
1076
01:19:45,863 --> 01:19:47,282
A possibility, yeah.
1077
01:19:50,118 --> 01:19:53,329
In the short term we can take comfort
in how ridiculous they look.
1078
01:20:07,677 --> 01:20:13,808
And it's, of course, a risky strategy
to give Nazis a load of drugs.
1079
01:20:21,441 --> 01:20:27,238
And here, it underlines the fact
he's been relying on her all these years.
1080
01:20:27,363 --> 01:20:28,865
Yeah.
1081
01:20:33,286 --> 01:20:35,163
How can you talk to me like that?
1082
01:20:38,207 --> 01:20:39,709
Tie me up!
1083
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:47,050
And her weapon is a meat tenderizer.
1084
01:20:52,805 --> 01:20:55,892
Well, it sort of...
He is made to look buffoonish,
1085
01:20:56,017 --> 01:20:58,978
but it does sort of restore him
as a threat by the end.
1086
01:20:59,103 --> 01:21:01,564
It does sort of walk that line.
1087
01:21:03,775 --> 01:21:05,193
Where's the girl?
1088
01:21:06,903 --> 01:21:09,155
In the laundry room.
1089
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:13,785
Because it would be easy
to lose suspense and horror
1090
01:21:13,910 --> 01:21:18,706
and just go for absurdist comedy
or surrealism or whatever,
1091
01:21:18,831 --> 01:21:22,710
but it remains something that functions
as a suspense narrative,
1092
01:21:22,835 --> 01:21:25,004
a thriller narrative, mystery.
1093
01:21:28,007 --> 01:21:31,511
Strangely... I don't know
how you feel about this,
1094
01:21:31,636 --> 01:21:38,309
but it's always struck me that in a way
it's easier to make an art film
1095
01:21:38,434 --> 01:21:40,269
with subject matter like this,
1096
01:21:40,395 --> 01:21:41,938
because you don't have to worry
1097
01:21:42,063 --> 01:21:45,483
about the nuts and bolts
of plotting and backstory
1098
01:21:45,608 --> 01:21:48,486
and all that Agatha christie stuff,
1099
01:21:48,611 --> 01:21:54,117
that thriller stuff,
that murder-mystery element
1100
01:21:54,242 --> 01:21:58,913
where all the clues have to add up,
everything has to fit together.
1101
01:21:59,038 --> 01:22:02,041
You have to get a picture
that makes sense
1102
01:22:02,166 --> 01:22:06,129
and you can think about for days
aftennards and say, "oh, yeah."
1103
01:22:06,879 --> 01:22:09,966
If you just do, I suppose,
what David lynch does
1104
01:22:10,091 --> 01:22:13,970
and say, "none of that really matters",
1105
01:22:14,095 --> 01:22:16,931
you know what?
That saves you a couple of weeks.
1106
01:22:17,056 --> 01:22:18,599
It does, yeah!
1107
01:22:18,724 --> 01:22:21,811
Certainly in the development process.
1108
01:22:23,104 --> 01:22:26,816
It's so much easierjust to go weird.
1109
01:22:27,733 --> 01:22:30,236
- And say, "you figure it out."
- Yeah, that's right.
1110
01:22:30,361 --> 01:22:33,614
And let the audience...
1111
01:22:33,739 --> 01:22:37,076
And sometimes...
I mean, that effect or that approach
1112
01:22:37,702 --> 01:22:42,623
can also lead to stuff
that is so irrationally terrifying
1113
01:22:42,748 --> 01:22:44,667
it scars audiences for life.
1114
01:22:44,792 --> 01:22:47,795
And it's entirely valid,
1115
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:51,340
but I think we should notice
it's also a shortcut sometimes.
1116
01:22:51,466 --> 01:22:52,884
Yes.
1117
01:22:53,009 --> 01:22:58,514
It's also a way of saying, "I couldn't
be bothered to work all this out, so..."
1118
01:22:58,639 --> 01:23:02,435
I think that's why it works with lynch,
because you do get the sense
1119
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:06,689
that he is tapping into something
genuinely, you know,
1120
01:23:06,814 --> 01:23:09,317
that he's dredging up
from his subconscious.
1121
01:23:09,442 --> 01:23:14,780
Whereas, although it's a film I like a lot,
I think the shining cheats.
1122
01:23:14,906 --> 01:23:17,992
I think that kubrick couldn't be bothered
1123
01:23:18,117 --> 01:23:26,117
to make certain elements
of the backstory and the mystery cohere.
1124
01:23:26,292 --> 01:23:32,465
I think sometimes he skates over stuff,
like how Jack gets out of the fridge.
1125
01:23:32,590 --> 01:23:33,591
Right!
1126
01:23:33,716 --> 01:23:37,470
It's like, that was a question
that must have been debated on the set
1127
01:23:37,595 --> 01:23:39,764
and they never had an answer to it.
1128
01:23:39,889 --> 01:23:42,642
Yeah. There is no ambiguity.
1129
01:23:42,767 --> 01:23:47,355
Well, essentially, that's the scene
that confirms the ghosts have to be real.
1130
01:23:47,480 --> 01:23:55,480
Yeah. But I think that this is a film
that doesn't take that easy out.
1131
01:23:55,655 --> 01:23:57,532
- And I admire that.
- It does connect.
1132
01:23:57,657 --> 01:24:01,285
I admire that as a writer
because I know how difficult it is
1133
01:24:01,410 --> 01:24:07,458
and I know how frustrating those extra
three weeks of work on the script are
1134
01:24:07,583 --> 01:24:10,461
where... it's like whac-a-mole, isn't it?
1135
01:24:10,586 --> 01:24:15,091
You think you've knocked them all down,
but no, some other tab comes up
1136
01:24:15,216 --> 01:24:18,344
or some other loose end
and you think, "how does that fit in?"
1137
01:24:18,469 --> 01:24:22,682
"Is that just an awkward aside?"
1138
01:24:22,807 --> 01:24:26,310
"Do we hope people
won't remember that or notice it?"
1139
01:24:26,435 --> 01:24:32,441
Whereas there's a rigor to this
that I admire and appreciate.
1140
01:24:42,577 --> 01:24:46,539
And now the mother is coming back
into it as a character.
1141
01:24:46,664 --> 01:24:50,501
Yeah, and I kind of wonder
how we're meant to read this,
1142
01:24:50,626 --> 01:24:53,337
her walking very slowly to the hotel.
1143
01:24:53,462 --> 01:24:55,840
Is there an element
of black comedy in this?
1144
01:24:55,965 --> 01:24:59,051
Is she going to get there in time
to save the day?
1145
01:25:04,974 --> 01:25:12,356
And is christoph our hope
for the future of masculinity in Europe?
1146
01:25:12,481 --> 01:25:14,734
- He's still a young, blond German.
- He is.
1147
01:25:14,859 --> 01:25:18,029
But he seems to be
a kind of sensitive guy, doesn't he?
1148
01:25:18,154 --> 01:25:21,574
And he's got a sense of humor.
1149
01:25:21,699 --> 01:25:23,951
I mean, there isn't that much to him,
1150
01:25:24,076 --> 01:25:27,955
but his presence means
1151
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:32,335
that this isn't a film
that could be accused of misandry.
1152
01:25:37,173 --> 01:25:40,343
A word that our politicians
don't seem aware of.
1153
01:25:54,190 --> 01:25:55,650
And although it sets it up
1154
01:25:55,775 --> 01:26:01,238
that you kind of want to see her,
you know, avenge the other women,
1155
01:26:01,364 --> 01:26:03,783
it also takes the time to go,
"it's not that easy",
1156
01:26:03,908 --> 01:26:06,535
and she can't quite bring herself
to do it at first.
1157
01:26:06,661 --> 01:26:09,288
It's not a natural thing.
1158
01:26:09,413 --> 01:26:11,415
I mean, it's a...
1159
01:26:13,167 --> 01:26:18,089
It's a hump that a lot of horror films
have to get over.
1160
01:26:18,214 --> 01:26:22,093
People don't go
from one to a hundred overnight
1161
01:26:22,218 --> 01:26:27,723
in terms of what they're willing to do,
even in extreme circumstances.
1162
01:26:34,689 --> 01:26:36,524
We do have one of those...
1163
01:26:36,649 --> 01:26:41,987
Again, it's a horror-movie hospital
with almost no staff or patients or...
1164
01:26:42,113 --> 01:26:46,617
It's as disembodied and empty
as the hotel.
1165
01:26:46,742 --> 01:26:48,160
Yeah.
1166
01:26:54,375 --> 01:26:55,459
But maybe that's...
1167
01:26:55,584 --> 01:26:59,046
Like the hotel, it was probably built
during an economic boom
1168
01:26:59,171 --> 01:27:01,716
when the community is expected
to be thriving.
1169
01:27:01,841 --> 01:27:05,594
That fits with the backstory
of the village and everything as well.
1170
01:27:06,137 --> 01:27:11,058
That all this stuff was going to be big
and then wasn't, and actually...
1171
01:27:12,184 --> 01:27:15,438
That's something
that's in dark as well,
1172
01:27:15,563 --> 01:27:20,526
the idea of how communities
are dependent on their economy,
1173
01:27:20,651 --> 01:27:25,656
which is a subtext
in some American and British horror,
1174
01:27:25,781 --> 01:27:29,952
but it's very rarely explicitly addressed.
1175
01:27:30,536 --> 01:27:32,371
How miserable a place is
1176
01:27:32,496 --> 01:27:35,583
can quite often just be down
to the factory closing
1177
01:27:35,708 --> 01:27:39,754
as opposed to the deep, dark sins
of Salem's lot or whatever.
1178
01:27:39,879 --> 01:27:44,550
And that's precisely the kind of soil
that fascism will spring up from.
1179
01:27:55,352 --> 01:27:59,899
And it does ask the question:
What do we want to see happen here?
1180
01:28:00,024 --> 01:28:03,360
Yeah. Obviously, as an audience
we want to see him die.
1181
01:28:03,486 --> 01:28:09,074
It's this thing that even if as a person
you're against capital punishment,
1182
01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:13,412
you want to see screen villains die.
1183
01:28:13,537 --> 01:28:17,458
And it's disappointing
if a film ducks out of it.
1184
01:28:17,583 --> 01:28:24,840
But here, there is a sense that
you don't really want to see her tainted.
1185
01:28:24,965 --> 01:28:28,385
She's got a chance
to get out of this cycle
1186
01:28:28,511 --> 01:28:32,181
and she ended it
in a very unusual way in the dream.
1187
01:28:32,306 --> 01:28:34,350
Although now we have the...
1188
01:28:35,851 --> 01:28:39,146
This reverts
to a slightly more conventional...
1189
01:28:42,149 --> 01:28:44,652
Heroine versus psycho baddie.
1190
01:28:45,820 --> 01:28:48,572
Well, you know,
I suppose the ultimate moral is
1191
01:28:48,697 --> 01:28:52,701
you can't cut a Nazi a break, basically.
1192
01:28:54,745 --> 01:28:56,330
Everything ok?
1193
01:29:00,668 --> 01:29:02,753
And again, this is
the kind of shining moment
1194
01:29:02,878 --> 01:29:05,798
of the guy that turns up to help
but then doesn't.
1195
01:29:07,007 --> 01:29:09,885
I always...
And actually, that's a thing
1196
01:29:10,010 --> 01:29:12,888
that I know Stephen King disagreed
with Stanley kubrick about
1197
01:29:13,013 --> 01:29:16,433
but always strikes me as being
the right decision in the film.
1198
01:29:19,103 --> 01:29:22,690
I'm sorry to see scatman crothers
go as well, but...
1199
01:29:22,815 --> 01:29:26,110
It's more horrifying to have
your expectations overturned like that.
1200
01:29:26,235 --> 01:29:30,197
Danny and Wendy have to save
themselves for the story to work.
1201
01:29:32,157 --> 01:29:35,160
And here...
1202
01:29:35,286 --> 01:29:38,122
Yeah, various people could possibly
come to her rescue.
1203
01:29:38,247 --> 01:29:39,331
Yes!
1204
01:29:47,339 --> 01:29:50,050
I do think we have a sense
this isn't one of those films
1205
01:29:50,175 --> 01:29:54,847
that's going to be so despairing
it's going to end with evil triumphant.
1206
01:29:54,972 --> 01:29:56,390
Yeah.
1207
01:30:04,398 --> 01:30:07,735
Yeah, I think there's a certain
good-naturedness to it.
1208
01:30:07,860 --> 01:30:12,781
Yeah, it's like, Michael haneke
would have killed him.
1209
01:30:14,909 --> 01:30:16,869
And made you feel bad
about it aftennards.
1210
01:30:16,994 --> 01:30:20,748
He would have ended it
with him saying, "it's your fault."
1211
01:30:25,586 --> 01:30:28,088
"Feel bad, you're supposed to."
1212
01:30:29,423 --> 01:30:32,509
Whereas here we do have
a rooting interest.
1213
01:30:32,635 --> 01:30:35,888
It gives us a positive way out
of a horrible situation.
1214
01:30:36,013 --> 01:30:37,348
Yeah.
1215
01:30:41,143 --> 01:30:44,980
Even if it's that all these awful people
are going to grow old and die.
1216
01:30:47,524 --> 01:30:48,859
Yeah.
1217
01:30:50,903 --> 01:30:53,822
Whereas, I mean, he does eventually
get his comeuppance,
1218
01:30:53,948 --> 01:30:57,952
but she has to be shown
that there's no...
1219
01:30:58,911 --> 01:31:01,914
That there's no being reasonable
with Nazis, ultimately.
1220
01:31:05,793 --> 01:31:13,133
And we have edged into grand guignol
for the finale, after having...
1221
01:31:13,258 --> 01:31:18,138
I suppose most of the film has fringed
on horror without really being there.
1222
01:31:18,263 --> 01:31:21,225
And I quite like the fact
that literally a lighting change
1223
01:31:22,142 --> 01:31:25,187
is what takes us into full-on...
1224
01:31:26,605 --> 01:31:28,774
Suspiria lighting, isn't it?
1225
01:31:29,984 --> 01:31:34,613
And the ghost girl coming out of the grave
like sadako coming out of the well.
1226
01:31:37,825 --> 01:31:45,825
Even that big hotel sign
has a kind of particular feel.
1227
01:31:48,210 --> 01:31:51,880
It's almost like it's advertising
that Jessica hausner film.
1228
01:31:54,341 --> 01:31:58,804
Which someone should really re-release.
It's very difficult to see these days.
1229
01:32:01,140 --> 01:32:03,892
It did have...
I mean that toured the festivals,
1230
01:32:04,018 --> 01:32:06,687
but I don't think
it actually particularly got anywhere.
1231
01:32:06,812 --> 01:32:10,149
I think it got a DVD release here,
but it's out of print now.
1232
01:32:10,274 --> 01:32:14,778
I mean, if you like this,
you should track that down.
1233
01:32:14,903 --> 01:32:20,492
Because it's a different story,
but it has a similar feel.
1234
01:32:20,617 --> 01:32:23,996
It's a hotel at the edge of the woods
with grimm's fairy tales stuff
1235
01:32:24,121 --> 01:32:29,251
and an interestingly obsessive
female protagonist.
1236
01:32:35,674 --> 01:32:38,886
I can't remember whether it was
pauline Kael or Susan sontag
1237
01:32:39,011 --> 01:32:42,723
who described
a certain type of European film
1238
01:32:42,848 --> 01:32:45,225
as "come as
the sick soul of Europe party".
1239
01:32:45,350 --> 01:32:47,853
- That was Kael.
- That's right.
1240
01:32:47,978 --> 01:32:48,979
That's it, isn't it?
1241
01:32:49,104 --> 01:32:54,860
There is a sort of sense of that.
And, hey, as an American, she can talk!
1242
01:32:57,571 --> 01:32:59,823
But if arrow want
to pick up the rights to hotel,
1243
01:32:59,948 --> 01:33:02,785
then we'll be back
to do the commentary for that one.
1244
01:33:10,459 --> 01:33:14,129
Because it's a film
that wasn't seen much,
1245
01:33:14,254 --> 01:33:16,632
you don't think
it could have been influential,
1246
01:33:16,757 --> 01:33:19,760
but a lot of subsequent films
have done stuff a lot like it.
1247
01:33:22,346 --> 01:33:26,183
Maybe this will have a similar impact
1248
01:33:26,308 --> 01:33:34,308
because this is its highest profile
outside Germany on this release.
1249
01:33:34,525 --> 01:33:39,321
And I think it'll impress a lot of people,
certainly a generation of filmmakers
1250
01:33:39,446 --> 01:33:41,907
who will find bits and pieces of it,
1251
01:33:42,032 --> 01:33:45,702
because, although in this track
1252
01:33:45,828 --> 01:33:49,790
we have quite often related it
to earlier films
1253
01:33:49,915 --> 01:33:53,418
or general trends
or underlying approaches,
1254
01:33:53,544 --> 01:33:56,421
it does so much stuff
that is fresh and unusual.
1255
01:33:56,547 --> 01:34:00,467
And it's hard sometimes to point that out
just because it is new.
1256
01:34:00,592 --> 01:34:02,636
It's more than the sum of its influences.
1257
01:34:02,761 --> 01:34:05,139
It's taking them
and it's doing something with them.
1258
01:34:05,264 --> 01:34:09,101
And it's got a real unusual feel.
1259
01:34:09,226 --> 01:34:12,479
Even this moment is, you know,
it's the heroine and the villain,
1260
01:34:12,604 --> 01:34:16,942
but it's also the woman and her dad.
1261
01:34:17,067 --> 01:34:18,235
Yeah.
1262
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:19,611
That is there.
1263
01:34:19,736 --> 01:34:25,075
She's kind of grieving
for a lost father she never had.
1264
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:26,702
Yeah.
1265
01:34:26,827 --> 01:34:31,123
- It's the feint at the haneke ending.
- Yes, that's right.
1266
01:34:32,875 --> 01:34:36,211
We might have gone with that.
1267
01:34:40,132 --> 01:34:45,512
And we have come
to scrabbling in a grave.
1268
01:34:49,933 --> 01:34:56,940
But all through, we've had
sort of moments or asides or feints
1269
01:34:57,065 --> 01:35:02,863
which have brought in
kind of a warmth and a humor
1270
01:35:02,988 --> 01:35:07,075
and a spikiness that...
1271
01:35:07,201 --> 01:35:10,662
As I say,
this is not a complete downer
1272
01:35:10,787 --> 01:35:14,583
in the way that so many horror films
on this subject are.
1273
01:35:14,708 --> 01:35:20,255
It's like... the director of demon
committed suicide at a film festival,
1274
01:35:20,380 --> 01:35:23,383
which suggests where his head was at.
1275
01:35:25,427 --> 01:35:31,725
This subject matter does not
provoke warm, happy thoughts often.
1276
01:35:32,726 --> 01:35:36,230
But this is a film
that does not absolutely depress me.
1277
01:35:36,355 --> 01:35:39,358
- I find it quite exhilarating.
- Yes, absolutely.
1278
01:35:39,483 --> 01:35:45,656
And it ends with love,
which is kind of what you want.
1279
01:35:50,077 --> 01:35:51,954
So any final thoughts on schlaf?
1280
01:35:52,079 --> 01:35:55,082
Well, I think it's interesting to...
As you say, you know,
1281
01:35:55,207 --> 01:35:57,960
it's unusual for us to take a new film
and discuss it,
1282
01:35:58,085 --> 01:36:04,091
but I think it's definitely been
interesting to kind of dissect it
1283
01:36:04,216 --> 01:36:08,303
and hopefully we've managed
to point out some interesting stuff
1284
01:36:08,428 --> 01:36:10,764
and draw links with the past
1285
01:36:10,889 --> 01:36:16,853
but also show why it's fresh and new
and a new voice worth looking at.
1286
01:36:16,979 --> 01:36:19,815
And I love the fact
it has a mid-credit sting as well,
1287
01:36:19,940 --> 01:36:26,029
which takes it
into a sort of another era.
1288
01:36:26,154 --> 01:36:28,407
I'm not quite sure
where we're going with this,
1289
01:36:28,532 --> 01:36:34,788
but there's a sort of...
A kind of limbo-like sitcom feel to this.
1290
01:36:34,913 --> 01:36:36,039
Yeah.
1291
01:36:39,084 --> 01:36:42,462
As if maybe we're going to get
a spinoff in a completely different genre,
1292
01:36:42,587 --> 01:36:45,757
which I think is sort of...
Again, it's kind of sweet.
1293
01:36:45,882 --> 01:36:47,217
Yeah.
1294
01:36:54,850 --> 01:36:56,560
Is that a particularly German game?
1295
01:36:56,685 --> 01:36:59,187
It's played
in lnglourious basterds as well.
1296
01:36:59,313 --> 01:37:03,150
Oh, yeah. I don't know.
I never would have thought of it as such.
1297
01:37:03,275 --> 01:37:06,236
It's not particularly common,
1298
01:37:06,361 --> 01:37:08,530
but I knew of it
before lnglourious basterds.
1299
01:37:08,655 --> 01:37:11,158
I think I'd been at parties
where people had played it.
1300
01:37:12,868 --> 01:37:15,287
It's a silly guessing game, but yeah...
1301
01:37:17,039 --> 01:37:20,000
And yes, here we have the pan
to the creepy corridor,
1302
01:37:20,125 --> 01:37:22,169
the possibility that...
1303
01:37:24,463 --> 01:37:26,631
What do we think
is coming out of the darkness?
1304
01:37:26,757 --> 01:37:29,092
What's coming out of there?
1305
01:37:31,678 --> 01:37:33,013
Yes.
1306
01:37:34,264 --> 01:37:35,766
It's a pig.
1307
01:37:39,186 --> 01:37:41,271
Which is almost
where we came in.
1308
01:37:49,488 --> 01:37:52,908
So, yes, I guess
what we take away from that
1309
01:37:53,033 --> 01:37:55,619
is that the pig
will always be there.
1310
01:37:56,411 --> 01:37:59,081
You can't just make sausages out of it.
1311
01:39:16,867 --> 01:39:19,953
I've just realized it's a joke.
It's a fascist pig.
1312
01:39:21,746 --> 01:39:24,082
Oh! Yeah, of course.
1313
01:39:26,126 --> 01:39:32,174
I don't know if that expression
is much used in Germany.
1314
01:39:32,299 --> 01:39:33,800
That might be a coincidence.
1315
01:39:33,925 --> 01:39:39,347
It's certainly something I heard a lot
on the left in the 1970s.
113450
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