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This programme contains
some scenes of a sexual nature,
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00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,799
some strong language
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and some scenes which
some viewers may find upsetting.
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Cos I haven't met anyone
who makes me feel
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the way you feel about Claire.
6
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But then again, nor have I ever,
I don't think,
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00:00:16,601 --> 00:00:19,360
quite felt the way I feel
about Claire about you.
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00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,759
Joy, I'm struck by something
you said a moment ago.
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You said, "It's my job to be
whoever it is they need me to be".
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00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,360
What you did tonight was wildly
inappropriate!
11
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,839
I wonder if it's possible
to talk about a time
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00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,639
where you've experienced
feeling yourself.
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So, then, why this persistent
moving of the goalposts?!
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Synced & corrected by -robtor-
www.addic7ed.com
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So, how was it?
16
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It was fine. I don't know.
17
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What don't you know?
18
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Well, I don't know...
19
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,439
...what to say.
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Say whatever you like.
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Erm...
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00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:36,520
Well, I was late.
23
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But they hadn't started yet.
24
00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:42,450
Why were you late?
25
00:04:43,403 --> 00:04:44,760
Oh, this and that.
26
00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,820
Can you be a little more specific?
27
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,919
I burnt my toast.
28
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,280
How?
29
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,740
I see where you're going with this,
by the way.
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Somebody turned the toaster up to four,
31
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somebody who isn't me.
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00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,919
And I couldn't find my shoes,
find the right shoes.
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Well, which was it?
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You knew which shoes
you were looking for,
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00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,879
and were unable to find them,
or in general...?
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00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,239
All right, I... Fine. I accept.
37
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,800
I may have been a little bit... hesitant.
38
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,839
And why?
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00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:26,239
Was I a little bit hesitant?
40
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,680
You tell me.
41
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,639
I asked a registrar once.
42
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,146
I said, which, you know,
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00:05:36,147 --> 00:05:38,820
"Do you have a preference when it
comes to weddings versus funerals?"
44
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,140
And she said, "Funerals".
45
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,660
And I said, "Oh, that's interesting".
46
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,039
She said,
"Weddings can be quite elaborate.
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"Quite a lot of voices and
opinions in the mix.
48
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,540
"Funerals, on the other hand..."
49
00:05:54,927 --> 00:05:59,960
...she said, "All people want to do,
more often than not, anyway...
50
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,880
"..they just want it to matter.
51
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,400
"To mean something."
52
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:17,559
And, in general, is that how you
feel about weddings versus funerals?
53
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,360
I don't know.
54
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,160
Maybe.
55
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,980
I think probably maybe it is. Yeah.
56
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,860
Would you like to give me an example?
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00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,740
You mean an example of why I prefer
funerals to weddings,
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or you mean an example of a funeral
that actually meant something to me?
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00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:40,220
Whatever you like.
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00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,420
Well, no, you tell me.
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00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,980
I wasn't necessarily saying I did,
by the way.
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00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,879
I wasn't necessarily suggesting
you did, either.
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00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,719
I was just... relaying something...
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00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,600
...someone... once...
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Indeed.
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00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,880
But, OK, so, erm...
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00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,580
I mean, since we're just...
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00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,880
...talking about him...
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00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,440
I mean, I remember...
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...at Mum's, at my mum's...
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Funeral.
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Yeah, and...
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00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,239
Yeah, and I remember he, erm...
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Sorry, by, erm...
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00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,519
When you say "he"...
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00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,399
Er, Lawrence's dad.
77
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,160
- Graham?
- Yeah.
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00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,440
Cos my own dad had said to me...
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00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,480
..."No-one wants to see a fuss
from you today, Joy".
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00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,879
What did he mean by that, do you think?
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00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,599
Well, in his very own inimitable
way, he was saying,
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"Today's the day to
keep a lid on it, kid".
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00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,199
Not an easy promise to adhere to
at the best of times,
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let alone on the day...
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I did OK.
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The strangest... I think...
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00:08:43,282 --> 00:08:45,560
The strangest thing was probably, erm...
88
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:52,088
...the number, the number of
people, and people I'd never met,
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00:08:52,089 --> 00:08:54,740
telling me how much they loved my mum.
90
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,180
I mean, telling me how wonderful
they thought she was.
91
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,599
Yeah, people she worked with,
people she used to go dancing with.
92
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Why strange?
93
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,320
But then, erm, but then, anyway, erm...
94
00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:18,920
So then, once the, erm, once the...
95
00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:25,120
...service was done, I think...
96
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,720
...I think that's when it really...
97
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,680
And he said to me...
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00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,959
He said, "You do know, don't you,
99
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,040
"that it's all right not to feel
yourself on a day like today?"
100
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How nice of him.
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Oh, he was amazing.
102
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- Lawrence's father?
- Yeah, he was...
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He was an extremely generous individual.
104
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- More so than YOUR father?
- Oh!
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More so than almost anyone.
106
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Alan, I suppose, actually.
107
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Cos, I mean, he was the only other
person, when Mum died.
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00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,839
Because, at the time, erm,
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not a lot of my friends...
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I mean, nobody knew what to say to me.
111
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,280
In what sense?
112
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,420
Well, Angela,
none of them had a dead parent.
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So, apart from Graham,
and apart from your husband...
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Oh, sorry, no, at the time, at the
time, me and Alan, we weren't...
115
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,599
You weren't? No. But you were together?
116
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- Yeah.
- Boyfriend and girlfriend?
117
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Yup, yup.
118
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Erm, we actually...
119
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...how we met, actually is, erm...
120
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,240
...quite, er...
121
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I was on antibiotics cos I'd been
bitten by the neighbour's cat.
122
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I hated that fucking cat.
Anyway, so I wasn't drinking.
123
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,519
And, as far as I could tell,
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Alan was the only other sober person
at this party full of
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00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,280
otherwise horrendously
over-the-top undergraduates.
126
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,020
And he said, rather sweetly, he said...
127
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,159
..."I've got an essay due in tomorrow".
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And I thought, "Oh!"
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I mean...
130
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,879
And, sorry, just to check that
I've, erm...
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00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,039
This was during...
132
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Oh, yeah, we met,
at the start of our second year.
133
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,360
And your mother...?
134
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,719
She died towards the end
of our third year.
135
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I see.
136
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,780
So the two of you, in fact,
had been together for some time.
137
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,680
Yeah, but we, er, we...
138
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,720
We actually didn't get together until...
139
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,239
Because at that time, at that...
Well, at this particular point
140
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in time, I was...
141
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,439
I was still, er, actually,
142
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,600
still seeing, erm, Lawrence.
143
00:12:42,058 --> 00:12:43,248
Oh.
144
00:12:43,273 --> 00:12:46,359
Yeah, trying to make a go
of things long distance.
145
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- And did you?
- Make a go of things long distance?
146
00:12:49,002 --> 00:12:51,640
- Mm-hm.
- Not massively, no.
147
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I did tell him the truth.
148
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,845
I said, "Lawrence, I'm so sorry..."
149
00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:04,380
"..but I think I've met someone else.
150
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,679
"And we haven't done anything.
151
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,679
"I mean, we haven't kissed or
anything, but we have
152
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:14,000
"been spending a fair bit of time
together...
153
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,761
"..and the more I've found
myself drawn to him..."
154
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"..the less I find myself missing you".
155
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,239
And he, you know, he said, he said...
156
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God!
157
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,599
He said, "What has he got that I don't?"
158
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,959
And you said?
159
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,220
Oh, I don't know, something along
the lines of, erm...
160
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,380
...he seems so in control of things.
161
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,720
What did you mean by that?
162
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,840
Well, all his VHSs were alphabetised!
163
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,319
And I think he knew he wanted
to be a teacher. I think.
164
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,760
I think he knew that about himself.
165
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And he was calm.
166
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And he was organised.
167
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,479
What about Lawrence? What did his
VHS collection look like?
168
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,999
Oh, it...
It certainly was NOT alphabetised.
169
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,479
And you said earlier, we were
talking about Lawrence's father,
170
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about Graham, and you described him
as an extremely generous individual.
171
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More so than almost anyone else.
172
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,340
And then you said, "Except Alan".
173
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,919
That's because, I mean, erm...
174
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,480
In terms of...
175
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I asked him not to come to Mum's funeral.
176
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,015
- OK.
- Yeah, I just...
177
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- And why...?
- I didn't...
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Please.
179
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I didn't want him to see me
like that. Like what?
180
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Not myself.
181
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,159
And he hadn't met any of my family.
182
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,999
When you say, "Not yourself"...
183
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I know it isn't logical.
It's just how I felt at the time.
184
00:15:29,413 --> 00:15:30,653
And so...
185
00:15:30,678 --> 00:15:36,095
So, OK, you ask him not to attend,
you give him your reasons,
186
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,079
and he agrees? Or...?
187
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,380
No, he... Yeah, he does. He...
188
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,860
Sorry, this is when? Where are we now?
189
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,700
Oh, I think I probably called
him within about...
190
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,119
...24 hours of Mum dying.
191
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,540
OK.
192
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,440
Yeah, and then, erm, I think we
spoke maybe about a day or so later.
193
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,599
And again, on the phone, or...?
194
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,240
No, this was... I mean, yeah,
this was all over the...
195
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,239
I see, so a day or so later.
196
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,060
Yeah, and he, erm...
197
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,679
He asks about the funeral, and...
198
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,360
...he says if there's anything he can
do to help, or...
199
00:16:22,133 --> 00:16:23,493
And you said...?
200
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,879
I said, "Alan, the truth is,
we're planning on keeping things
201
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,840
"quite small, mostly family".
202
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,040
Which was or wasn't true?
203
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,760
More wasn't than was.
204
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,040
And what was his reaction?
205
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,519
He was quiet for a bit.
206
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,159
Think I thought I'd pissed him off.
207
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,200
Upset him.
208
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,680
Mm. Thought he didn't want to
speak to me.
209
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:09,840
And so...
210
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,840
And th...
211
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,760
So, OK, so then what happened?
What changed?
212
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,880
He, erm...
213
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,940
He said he'd, erm...
214
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,519
...he had been a little bit upset
that I didn't want him to be there,
215
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,300
that I'd asked him not to come.
216
00:18:09,199 --> 00:18:10,599
But not because...
217
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,480
Not because he minded per se not
being there, but...
218
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,519
...the thing that had been upsetting
him, or been upsetting FOR him,
219
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,060
was, erm...
220
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,420
...the thought, he said...
221
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,480
...of me being on my own, he said.
222
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,680
Alone.
223
00:18:42,064 --> 00:18:43,640
Having to go through all of that
on my own.
224
00:18:50,784 --> 00:18:52,784
_
225
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,640
And I knew how much he hated
people writing in books.
226
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,760
- Really?
- Oh! He couldn't stand it.
227
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,040
So it meant a lot.
228
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,960
What a law-breaker.
229
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,000
Problem was...
230
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,180
...I...
231
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,280
JOY CLEARS THROAT ..I, erm...
232
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,840
...erm...
233
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,320
You've been quiet for
quite a long time now.
234
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,240
I've been listening.
235
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,680
And what's more...
236
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,440
Well, I suppose I've been thinking.
237
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,919
What have you been thinking about?
238
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,960
Well...
239
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,480
Good question.
240
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,160
About...
241
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:18,788
...you.
242
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:21,140
Hmm. Good to know.
243
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,360
And about...
244
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,800
...how.
245
00:21:29,186 --> 00:21:31,220
Because what's interesting to me, Joy,
246
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,480
you mentioned earlier the burnt
toast, the running late.
247
00:21:36,753 --> 00:21:39,907
And when I pressed you
ever-so-slightly, you said,
248
00:21:39,932 --> 00:21:46,100
"OK, fine, I was, I'll admit it,
I was feeling somewhat hesitant".
249
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,039
And so then I'm thinking to myself,
"Well, all right,
250
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,920
"what is there to be hesitant about?"
251
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,634
And so then I'm thinking,
but I don't say it,
252
00:21:59,635 --> 00:22:03,359
I'm thinking,
"Well, presumably it's Lawrence.
253
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:04,760
"It's his wife. It's the...
254
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,239
"..the prospect of the three of you
potentially being in the same room
255
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,620
"at the same time, maybe".
256
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,835
And then, of course,
when you describe this encounter
257
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:23,100
with Graham, with Lawrence's father...
258
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,160
Well, then, I'm thinking to myself,
"Well, OK, well, now I see".
259
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,680
He clearly meant a great deal to you.
260
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,180
Not to mention the link with your mother.
261
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,860
And then, also there's this, erm...
262
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,580
...pattern of persistently...
263
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,280
...overlapping partners.
264
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,840
And what I mean by that is,
when I asked you, erm...
265
00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:04,600
...why you didn't want Alan to attend
the funeral of your mother,
266
00:23:04,625 --> 00:23:07,679
you said something along the lines of...
267
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,079
I didn't want him to see me like that.
268
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,719
That's right.
269
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,639
Not yourself.
270
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:19,208
As though only certain parts of our
personality, our psyche,
271
00:23:19,209 --> 00:23:23,460
are suitable for public consumption.
272
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,300
And then, there's the story
of your father...
273
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,120
...asking you not to make a fuss.
274
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,860
"Nobody wants to see you make a
fuss today, Joy."
275
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,640
And I'm thinking, "Well, what did he
really mean by that, I wonder?"
276
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:54,740
Or rather, "What did a statement
like that really mean to you?"
277
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,640
I think my honest feeling is...
278
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,420
...when he asked you
not to make a fuss...
279
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,620
...really, he was asking you
to stop feeling.
280
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,400
To feel nothing.
281
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,400
When we feel nothing, Joy...
282
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,620
...when we cease to feel anything
at all...
283
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,480
...we lose track of what causes us pain.
284
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,080
And why.
285
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,880
Not to mention what excites us,
and delights us.
286
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,759
So then, I'm thinking to myself,
"Well, of course you had sex.
287
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,240
"Of course you did, with Lawrence".
288
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,660
Because I suspect you wanted...
289
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,960
...you needed to feel something.
290
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,520
I told him, by the way.
291
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,960
Alan.
292
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,520
The truth.
293
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,320
And?
294
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,919
Water?
295
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,640
Mm.
296
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,180
Joy, I wanted to ask you about
something we talked about last week.
297
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,660
We were discussing Josh,
Joshua and Emily Riley,
298
00:27:57,661 --> 00:28:00,060
and you said...
299
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,840
"They said it was his last call,
he made," you said.
300
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,800
The last call he made?
301
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,840
Yeah?
302
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,639
And by "they," just to double check...
303
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,359
The police.
304
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:20,759
Oh, so...
305
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,319
OK, so it was the police,
who informed you.
306
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,199
Yeah. They... They said...
307
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,439
They explained...
308
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,359
I mean, I can't remember the exact...
309
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,480
It's all right
310
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,920
Erm...
311
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,239
From the, the evidence that had
been, erm...
312
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,620
Mm-hm.
313
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,079
- ...recovered...
- Mm-hm.
314
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,660
...the last call the deceased made...
315
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Was to you?
316
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,860
And this was at your house?
317
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,079
You mean the call, or the...?
318
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,220
No, sorry, the... When the police...
319
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,279
Yeah, I was at home.
320
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,880
At the house.
321
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,280
They knocked on the...
322
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,914
Said, would I mind, and I said no.
323
00:29:24,915 --> 00:29:28,700
"Would either of you like a cup
of tea, or a coffee?"
324
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,700
And, sorry, just to make sure, erm...
325
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:43,020
...how much at this point in time
were you or were you not aware of?
326
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,559
Aware of what?
327
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,380
Well, that something was wrong.
328
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,240
Or might be.
329
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,840
You mean, did I know he was dead?
330
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,080
Shocking, then.
331
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,800
It must have come as
quite a shock to you.
332
00:30:28,553 --> 00:30:29,583
And so...
333
00:30:29,774 --> 00:30:32,839
I'm sorry, I'm slightly
struggling to, erm...
334
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,580
Please, please.
335
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,999
Well, I mean, this was months ago.
336
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,440
It was, that's true.
337
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,440
Best part of a year. I mean...
338
00:30:47,313 --> 00:30:50,833
Would you rather we talked about
something else instead?
339
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,359
Angela, I can see your notes,
I can see them sitting right there,
340
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,280
so I'm not quite sure why I'm being
asked to repeat myself.
341
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,360
- You're frustrated.
- No. I'm...
342
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,000
Feels a little bit like
I'm being attacked.
343
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,240
Well, I'm sorry, Joy.
344
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,199
I'm sorry if that's how you feel.
345
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,560
I'm sorry if that's how these
questions are making you feel.
346
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,000
Are you OK?
347
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,160
That's not my intention.
348
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,559
And you're absolutely right, you are.
349
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,220
Because, as you say, some of this
is territory we've already explored.
350
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,220
The knock at the door. The inquest.
351
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,199
But actually, Joy, this call,
352
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,400
this final, unanswered call...
353
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,500
...I'm not sure we ever did,
as it happens...
354
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,800
...get round to discussing it.
355
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,599
And you're right, I do have my
notes from last week,
356
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,119
and also from the end of last year
as well, because, Joy...
357
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,839
So you mean, what you're saying is,
you think I didn't tell you?
358
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,359
- No.
- You think I deliberately...
359
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:16,370
No, no...
360
00:32:16,395 --> 00:32:19,399
You think I deliberately,
neglected, or avoided...
361
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,359
No, not at all, far from it, in fact.
362
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,199
Truth be told, I was worried
that I might have missed it,
363
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,500
or misunderstood, or...
364
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,280
You see, all I'm after here,
Joy, is clarity.
365
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,800
Because I don't want you
repeating yourself either.
366
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,240
Excuse me?
367
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,159
I'm sorry if these questions
have been upsetting for you.
368
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,999
Angela, they're not upsetting me,
they're annoying me.
369
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,480
There's a difference.
370
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,000
I'm sorry.
371
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,080
What for?
372
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,520
Getting pissed off.
373
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Not a problem.
374
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,280
I'm not someone who withholds things.
375
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,319
Agreed.
376
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,720
So... I don't know.
377
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,440
I mean, maybe I couldn't.
378
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,320
- You know?
- Couldn't what?
379
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,300
I mean as opposed to not...
380
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,880
...telling you. Not wanting to tell you.
381
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,000
I mean, it's embarrassing.
382
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,360
Isn't it?
383
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,520
It's shameful.
384
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,040
I mean, it's my job, for Christ's sake!
385
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,080
It's not as if I don't...
386
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,200
...think about it all th...
387
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,120
It's impossible not to, surely.
388
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,480
You mean if you'd taken the call?
389
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,665
You mean you think about what you
might have been able to do
390
00:34:42,666 --> 00:34:45,120
had you accepted Joshua's call?
391
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,440
Or maybe just listened.
392
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,680
I mean just listened.
393
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,880
You know?
394
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,840
Done my job.
395
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,600
It's an awful feeling, isn't it?
396
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,999
The feeling of...
397
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,880
"If only I'd said this, or done that".
398
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,978
You said it yourself, in fact,
last week, it's...
399
00:35:21,003 --> 00:35:24,160
It's the responsibility.
400
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,120
Well, no, that, that, that, I...
401
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,079
That I don't agree with.
402
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,559
OK.
403
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,000
No, I like responsibility.
404
00:35:36,266 --> 00:35:37,786
Responsibility's good.
405
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,720
I think we should be held accountable.
406
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,960
That's the job.
407
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,040
They OUGHT to get under our skin.
408
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,680
So that isn't what this is.
409
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,640
I don't think.
410
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Mm. This is different.
411
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,799
This is me not knowing what to do.
412
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,840
Because...
413
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,700
...or should've done.
414
00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:20,740
Or really even why.
415
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,880
I mean, how alone he must have felt...
416
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,820
...really and truly...
417
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,080
...to do that.
418
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,799
For him to feel... I mean, that is...
419
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,799
That it was a viable alternative.
420
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,060
It doesn't make sense. I can't...
421
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,280
...understand it, you know?
422
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,800
I mean, what an idiot!
423
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,960
What an honest to God...
424
00:36:53,847 --> 00:36:57,000
...is honestly sometimes
how I feel about it.
425
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,120
How it feels, you know?
426
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,260
I mean, stop trying to make yourself
the centre of your own misfortune.
427
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,540
You have an amazing wife. She loves you.
428
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,600
So...
429
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,320
I don't know...
430
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,640
...what any of it, or why any of it.
431
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,080
You've gone quiet again.
432
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:11,700
So have you.
433
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,320
What are you thinking about?
434
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,840
What are you thinking about?
435
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,280
OK. Well...
436
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,640
...I'm thinking about...
437
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,960
...my responsibility towards you.
438
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Thinking about when it feels
appropriate to push back
439
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:53,240
on certain things, and when it doesn't.
440
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,220
How, perhaps, I'm a little afraid
to tell you the truth,
441
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,460
of really taking you to task on
one or two things you said.
442
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:12,280
Because I can see that you're upset,
and you're vulnerable.
443
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,840
But I can also see that you're stuck.
444
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:28,359
And then, I suppose, I'm thinking
also about certain words
445
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,580
and phrases which seem to keep
cropping up...
446
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,880
...popping up again and again.
Erm, control.
447
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,740
Organised. Responsibility. Er...
448
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:49,160
Meaning. Feeling. Fuss.
449
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,160
And, of course, I would be lying if
I said that I...
450
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:05,439
...I wasn't thinking about how
desperately, desperately unfair,
451
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:12,980
and incomprehensible,
and unbearable, death is.
452
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:20,199
How it changes everything,
and yet all the while,
453
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,560
changing absolutely nothing
whatsoever at all.
454
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:33,000
How... really truly shit that is.
455
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:42,560
How really truly shit
grief can make us feel, Joy.
456
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,359
And then, if I think back to the
start of our conversation,
457
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,719
how you coped with the
unintelligibility of the world,
458
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:59,959
after the death of your mother, how
you took back some level of control
459
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,520
by, in a way by making or creating
problems for yourself elsewhere.
460
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,879
And then, if I take a moment...
461
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,039
Wait a minute, wait a minute,
I don't understand.
462
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,959
OK.
463
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,580
You're not being clear.
464
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,120
OK. Well...
465
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,239
Well, I suppose it's interesting
to me, Joy,
466
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,759
that when you and Alan first met,
and you were still in
467
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,079
a relationship with Lawrence,
you didn't behave disruptively.
468
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,479
You behaved as it were, erm,
perfectly honourably.
469
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,599
And then, in the wake of your
mother's death,
470
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,879
you decided, for whatever reason,
to keep your current partner at bay.
471
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,239
Away. A man you yourself, erm...
472
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:53,880
So what?
473
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:56,400
I don't...
474
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,920
I mean, so fucking what?
475
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,840
I did a stupid thing.
476
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,920
I mean...
477
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,760
Jesus, I mean, I was upset.
478
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,320
I was a child!
479
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,879
I wasn't suggesting it was stupid, Joy.
480
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,360
Quite the opposite, in fact.
481
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,960
Because, of course,
a problem over here is a good thing.
482
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,959
Because having a problem over here
means not thinking,
483
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,879
not having to think about,
or deal with this great big,
484
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,520
other sink-hole of a problem over here.
485
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,799
It means control, responsibility,
486
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,100
accountability, autonomy.
487
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,279
But, in order to have that, it means
having to wreak havoc elsewhere.
488
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,620
Do you see? All the way, way, way,
way, way over here...
489
00:42:55,720 --> 00:43:01,400
...exploiting a catastrophe
in order to block internal change.
490
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,919
And when I think about your current
situation, thinking about
491
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,399
things as they currently
stand, thinking back to where
492
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:17,559
it all started, inviting a relative
stranger into your consulting room.
493
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,999
Do you see? Designing and
implementing an elaborate,
494
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,159
an arrangement, which means,
or allows, this kind of
495
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,439
antithetical behaviour to
continue and to escalate.
496
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,300
And when I say... To be absolutely clear,
497
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,080
what I am not talking about here is...
498
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,040
...but what I am talking about is death.
499
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,780
Is grief.
500
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,640
Is feeling again, something, anything.
501
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,960
Sex as a means of controlling,
or neutralising.
502
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:08,639
No, but... An antithesis to a deep
and profound sense of loss.
503
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,280
Wait, because...
504
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,940
You said it yourself only a moment ago.
505
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,280
Stop trying to place yourself at
the centre of your own misfortune.
506
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,959
Wow. Er...
507
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,340
OK.
508
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,240
Jesus!
509
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,740
And when I think about your relationship
510
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,100
as it currently stands, OK...
511
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,840
...here's what I understand
to be the case.
512
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,880
Joy?
513
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,679
There was a very real loss of desire,
514
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,039
which you tackled, both of you, head on,
515
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,040
with a series of sanctioned infidelities.
516
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,759
Which led, in fact,
albeit counter-intuitively, but
517
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,640
nonetheless extremely successfully,
to a renewed sense of desire.
518
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Excitement. Intimacy.
519
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,420
Does that seem like a fair
assessment of things?
520
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,240
Joy?
521
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,800
So, my question to you, Joy,
is why keep going?
522
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,560
Do you see?
523
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,480
Why not stop?
524
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,160
Yes, I'm asking you.
525
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,359
Because it's fun? Well, OK.
526
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,520
So why keep going? Well, the answer
is, because it's working.
527
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,039
And you're enjoying yourselves,
both of you.
528
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,840
- Yeah.
- And why not? Good for you.
529
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,120
But then...
530
00:46:24,339 --> 00:46:25,739
...so why Lawrence?
531
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,520
Joy?
532
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:32,820
Why take that risk?
533
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,399
With things at home never better.
534
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,560
Why persist in flirting with disaster?
535
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,960
And why the situation
with your eldest daughter?
536
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,120
Why not tell her the truth?
Set the record straight.
537
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,540
And then why the standing up
in public, Joy,
538
00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:59,800
in front of friends and colleagues?
539
00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:04,360
Do you see?
540
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,399
Leapfrogging from
this crisis to that crisis.
541
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120
It's all too much.
542
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,240
You...
543
00:47:21,759 --> 00:47:26,780
...are not responsible for that man.
544
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,900
For what it was he did to himself.
545
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:33,400
Joy...
546
00:47:34,686 --> 00:47:37,460
...you simply are not.
547
00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,719
Oh, fuck.
548
00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:01,919
- It's all right, it's OK.
- No, I'm sorry.
549
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,960
Don't be.
550
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,600
I just... I just...
551
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,920
I feel so, so sorry for him.
552
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,040
Not to mention Emily. I mean...
553
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,040
Well...
554
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,920
...feeling is good.
555
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,880
And...
556
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:03,800
...feeling even more...
557
00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:07,480
...is even better.
558
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,840
These aren't feelings to run away from.
559
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:19,600
OK?
560
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,999
Fuck, I'm sorry.
561
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,680
Joy, I want you to stop apologising.
562
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,040
Sorry, I just...
563
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,200
I don't really think I have
anything else to say.
564
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,220
I mean, fuck, no, I mean,
I'm not sorry at all.
565
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,800
Maybe we can just sit here.
566
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,400
For a little bit.
567
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:10,600
Maybe...
568
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,360
And then...
569
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,360
Yeah.
570
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:29,880
Maybe then...
571
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,080
Before we finish...
572
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,760
...can I ask you
what you're thinking about?
573
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,560
Alan. Alan, I think.
574
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,640
What I should do now.
575
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,240
Whether to do anything, or...
576
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:31,920
...whether it's too late.
577
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:36,800
See you next week?
578
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,280
Hi.
579
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:03,840
Hi.
42470
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