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[ surf pounding,
gulls calling ]
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00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:32,380
Hank Hughes:
I have thought about
the TWA investigation
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00:00:32,423 --> 00:00:34,991
very often
over the years.
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00:00:35,035 --> 00:00:37,950
It's almost been
a nagging thought.
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00:00:37,994 --> 00:00:40,518
It's the one assignment
that I was given
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00:00:40,562 --> 00:00:43,739
in my entire career
of 42 years as an investigator
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00:00:43,782 --> 00:00:46,698
in one form or another
that I didn't finish.
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00:00:46,742 --> 00:00:48,831
And I like
to finish my work.
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00:00:48,874 --> 00:00:53,053
Woman on radio:
TWA 800, you're allowed to
climb and maintain 13,000.
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00:00:53,096 --> 00:00:56,056
Man on radio:
TWA 800, climb and maintain
13,000.
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00:00:56,099 --> 00:01:00,016
Man:
It was about 8:30.
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00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:04,064
I was standing on a bridge
looking south.
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00:01:04,107 --> 00:01:07,589
Woman:
I was at Davis Park
with my two young daughters.
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00:01:07,632 --> 00:01:10,896
[ airline radio chatter ]
15
00:01:10,940 --> 00:01:12,768
Man #2:
So I'm actually heading east
16
00:01:12,811 --> 00:01:14,987
and I just got done talking
to my coworker.
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00:01:17,251 --> 00:01:19,122
Woman #2:
It was a very warm night
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00:01:19,166 --> 00:01:22,995
and it was just-- it was kind of stifling almost.
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00:01:23,039 --> 00:01:24,606
Man #3:
We were taking a walk
that evening.
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00:01:24,649 --> 00:01:26,260
Man #4:
We were taking
a nice night flight.
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00:01:26,303 --> 00:01:27,957
Woman #3:
I was walking with
a friend of mine.
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00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,567
Man #5:
I was standing on the dock
and I was looking out
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00:01:29,611 --> 00:01:31,047
in a southeasterly
direction.
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00:01:31,091 --> 00:01:32,440
Woman #4:
I was on my boat.
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00:01:32,483 --> 00:01:34,137
Woman #5:
I was at Meschutt Beach.
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00:01:34,181 --> 00:01:36,444
Man #6:
We just happened
to look up at the sky.
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00:01:36,487 --> 00:01:39,577
And all of a sudden
I see something rise up from
behind these trees over here.
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00:03:00,571 --> 00:03:03,313
Reporter:
The US Coast Guard tonight
is reporting an explosion
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00:03:03,357 --> 00:03:05,924
about 10 miles south
of Long Island.
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00:03:05,968 --> 00:03:08,231
The 747 was on
its way to Paris
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00:03:08,275 --> 00:03:10,146
from JFK in New York.
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00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:12,496
Reporter #2:
We now have it
that TWA flight 800,
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00:03:12,540 --> 00:03:15,064
a commercial 747 aircraft
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00:03:15,107 --> 00:03:18,502
carrying 212 passengers,
a crew of 17,
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00:03:18,546 --> 00:03:20,765
has exploded in midair
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00:03:20,809 --> 00:03:23,681
about 10 miles out
into the Atlantic Ocean.
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00:03:26,380 --> 00:03:28,599
Reporter #3:
Bodies are being pulled out
of the water right now.
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00:03:28,643 --> 00:03:30,514
No survivors so far.
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00:03:30,558 --> 00:03:33,082
Reporter #4:
There's a lot of
search boats.
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00:03:33,125 --> 00:03:35,389
Reporter #5:
One witness described
a big fireball
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00:03:35,432 --> 00:03:37,042
with pieces coming off it.
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00:03:37,086 --> 00:03:38,870
Tom Kennedy:
I was pulling my boat back in.
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00:03:38,914 --> 00:03:40,263
I was tying it up
and the guy next to me
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00:03:40,307 --> 00:03:42,134
was tying his boat up.
45
00:03:42,178 --> 00:03:43,571
And the guy said,
"Hey, look at the flare."
46
00:03:43,614 --> 00:03:45,921
And I turned around
and I'm like, "Wow.
47
00:03:45,964 --> 00:03:47,749
Somebody must have some
trouble in the bay."
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00:03:47,792 --> 00:03:50,447
No sooner I said that,
the thing just exploded.
49
00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:53,581
Robert Young:
The beeper went off.
50
00:03:53,624 --> 00:03:55,887
It was our flight
operations dispatch.
51
00:03:55,931 --> 00:03:57,715
As the head of flight
operation safety
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00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,370
and the chief safety
investigator, I was hoping
it was a drill.
53
00:04:00,414 --> 00:04:01,893
But it wasn't.
54
00:04:13,818 --> 00:04:18,519
I was in Atlanta getting ready
to support the '96 Olympics.
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00:04:18,562 --> 00:04:21,652
My phone rang,
which was my unit chief
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00:04:21,696 --> 00:04:23,480
from the explosives unit
telling me to catch
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00:04:23,524 --> 00:04:25,265
the first plane out
to New York tomorrow morning.
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00:04:37,886 --> 00:04:40,584
I was at home
and my pager went off
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00:04:40,628 --> 00:04:42,847
and I was on the go team.
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00:04:57,775 --> 00:05:00,778
We gathered all the people
that we thought we would need
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00:05:00,822 --> 00:05:04,608
and we arrived about
4:00 in the morning at
JFK Airport in New York.
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00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:09,961
[ speaking French ]
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00:06:07,758 --> 00:06:11,022
Heckman: The command post
was at the East Moriches
Coast Guard station,
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00:06:11,066 --> 00:06:13,721
which was the closet Coast Guard
station to where the plane
actually went down.
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00:06:13,764 --> 00:06:15,636
Hughes:
We went to the Coast Guard
station
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00:06:15,679 --> 00:06:18,203
at Moriches immediately.
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00:06:18,247 --> 00:06:21,685
There were hundreds and hundreds
of police officers there.
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00:06:21,729 --> 00:06:24,079
James Speer:
My first impression
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00:06:24,122 --> 00:06:26,211
of the investigation was
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00:06:26,255 --> 00:06:28,300
martial law.
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00:06:42,358 --> 00:06:45,405
There were approximately
1,000 cops, it seemed, there
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00:06:45,448 --> 00:06:47,276
of which half of them
were FBI agents.
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00:06:47,319 --> 00:06:49,278
They had guards
on the hangar,
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00:06:49,321 --> 00:06:52,412
they had cops
at the Coast Guard station,
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00:06:52,455 --> 00:06:56,459
and it seemed very unusual
for an accident investigation.
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00:06:56,503 --> 00:06:58,722
Young:
Helicopters were landing
and taking off
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00:06:58,766 --> 00:07:00,463
like every three
or four minutes.
78
00:07:00,507 --> 00:07:05,294
Wreckage was coming in
and bodies were coming in.
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00:07:05,337 --> 00:07:07,644
One of the people who went out
with me on the first morning
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00:07:07,688 --> 00:07:10,168
was a former Army
helicopter pilot
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00:07:10,212 --> 00:07:13,476
who had significant experience
with Black Hawk helicopters.
82
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,173
One of the helicopters
came in and he said,
83
00:07:15,217 --> 00:07:18,220
"That's odd.
That's a Special Operations
helicopter."
84
00:07:18,263 --> 00:07:20,744
And I said,
"Oh, that is odd.
85
00:07:20,788 --> 00:07:22,485
I guess maybe they
just couldn't find one
and they borrowed it."
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00:07:22,529 --> 00:07:24,269
He said,
"Well, I don't know."
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00:07:24,313 --> 00:07:26,402
Reporter:
Just a little while ago,
a temporary morgue
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00:07:26,446 --> 00:07:29,231
was set up on the beach
in Long Island.
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00:07:29,274 --> 00:07:32,843
Robert Golden:
Right in here is the temporary
morgue facilities.
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00:07:32,887 --> 00:07:35,019
This is where
the boats would dock
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00:07:35,063 --> 00:07:37,282
and unload the victims.
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00:07:37,326 --> 00:07:39,937
Notice that hoses and various
bottles of chlorine
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00:07:39,981 --> 00:07:42,810
would be here
to hose down the boats
if there was any spillage
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00:07:42,853 --> 00:07:45,900
in the back of the boats
of biological fluids.
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00:07:45,943 --> 00:07:47,989
The bodies would
be photographed.
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00:07:48,032 --> 00:07:50,426
A tag would be placed
on the body.
97
00:07:50,470 --> 00:07:52,602
And if there was
any jewelry present,
98
00:07:52,646 --> 00:07:53,951
that also
would be photographed.
99
00:07:56,388 --> 00:07:59,783
Speer:
The FBI supervised
the transport of the wreckage.
100
00:07:59,827 --> 00:08:02,307
It was put on Army
National Guard trucks
101
00:08:02,351 --> 00:08:04,571
and trucked to Calverton,
Long Island,
102
00:08:04,614 --> 00:08:06,224
which is about
10 miles away.
103
00:08:14,624 --> 00:08:17,714
I can still smell
the hangar.
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00:08:17,758 --> 00:08:20,325
It smelled of death.
105
00:08:20,369 --> 00:08:24,286
And it just was not
a pleasant place to be.
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00:08:24,329 --> 00:08:26,201
It was very--
107
00:08:26,244 --> 00:08:29,117
it took a toll
on all of us.
108
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,685
You walked in the hangar
through all the guards.
109
00:08:31,728 --> 00:08:36,298
And it was not a pleasant
work environment.
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00:08:36,341 --> 00:08:39,344
Hughes:
We set up the staging area
at the hangar
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00:08:39,388 --> 00:08:42,086
and I noticed there was
a great deal of friction
112
00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:45,960
between the FBI
and the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms.
113
00:08:46,003 --> 00:08:49,616
The ATF agents,
most of whom have significant
114
00:08:49,659 --> 00:08:53,576
more experience in
investigating explosions
than any FBI agent,
115
00:08:53,620 --> 00:08:56,623
were relegated to sitting at
picnic benches and tables.
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00:08:56,666 --> 00:08:58,015
They weren't allowed
to do anything.
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00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:00,191
Speer:
On my first day there
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00:09:00,235 --> 00:09:02,411
when I had the tour
of the Calverton hangar,
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00:09:02,454 --> 00:09:05,109
there was a structural piece
of the aircraft
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00:09:05,153 --> 00:09:07,764
lying on the floor
that had three holes
121
00:09:07,808 --> 00:09:10,506
blown through it like
a .22 through a tin can
122
00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:14,858
with an obvious
entrance and exit side
of the penetration.
123
00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:16,643
I was about to take
a picture of it
124
00:09:16,686 --> 00:09:18,775
and somebody tapped me
on the shoulder
125
00:09:18,819 --> 00:09:20,560
and said,
"Don't take that picture."
126
00:09:20,603 --> 00:09:22,779
And I said,
"Who are you to tell me
not to take the picture?"
127
00:09:22,823 --> 00:09:25,434
And he said, "FBI.
Don't take the picture."
128
00:09:31,832 --> 00:09:34,530
The word was
in the press at that time
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00:09:34,574 --> 00:09:36,793
that eyewitnesses
had already begun to report
130
00:09:36,837 --> 00:09:40,057
smoke trails corkscrewing
up toward the airplane.
131
00:09:40,101 --> 00:09:42,669
Reporter:
The FBI today
raised new questions
132
00:09:42,712 --> 00:09:45,062
that a missile or some kind
of streaking object
133
00:09:45,106 --> 00:09:47,412
was seen in the sky
at the same time
134
00:09:47,456 --> 00:09:49,937
TWA flight 800 exploded.
135
00:09:49,980 --> 00:09:52,679
We do have some information
that there was something
in the sky.
136
00:09:52,722 --> 00:09:55,377
A number of people
have seen it.
137
00:09:55,420 --> 00:09:58,467
A number of people
have described it
very similarly.
138
00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:00,861
Hughes:
The attitude of our
senior management was,
139
00:10:00,904 --> 00:10:03,341
"Don't get too involved.
The FBI's gonna handle it.
140
00:10:03,385 --> 00:10:06,214
It's a missile or a bomb
and we're not gonna get
involved in it."
141
00:10:07,781 --> 00:10:09,434
Young:
Most all of us felt
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00:10:09,478 --> 00:10:12,742
that it was only a matter of
time before we found the piece
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00:10:12,786 --> 00:10:15,223
that would confirm
that it was a criminal event.
144
00:10:17,660 --> 00:10:20,315
Explosive traces
of unknown origin
145
00:10:20,358 --> 00:10:23,971
have been found relating
to TWA flight 800.
146
00:10:27,322 --> 00:10:29,890
Heckman:
The FBI,
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00:10:29,933 --> 00:10:32,153
we had our own mini lab
set up on the site.
148
00:10:32,196 --> 00:10:34,111
We got multiple
positive hits.
149
00:10:34,155 --> 00:10:36,505
Anything we had
a positive hit off
150
00:10:36,548 --> 00:10:38,725
had to be sent down
to the FBI laboratory
151
00:10:38,768 --> 00:10:41,553
where they could actually
run a confirmatory test.
152
00:10:41,597 --> 00:10:44,556
Three examples of that--
153
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,169
it was rather disconcerting
because the test at the lab
154
00:10:48,212 --> 00:10:49,953
was confirmatory on those,
155
00:10:49,997 --> 00:10:52,956
meaning that those were
actual explosive residues.
156
00:11:15,936 --> 00:11:17,764
[ speaking French ]
157
00:11:49,621 --> 00:11:51,232
Young:
It was very early on,
158
00:11:51,275 --> 00:11:53,408
we didn't have many pieces
in the hangar.
159
00:11:53,451 --> 00:11:56,193
And Jim said,
"Hey, I've got something here
you need to look at."
160
00:11:56,237 --> 00:11:58,587
So I went over and looked at it and it was the leading edge
161
00:11:58,630 --> 00:12:00,720
of the right wing,
as I recall.
162
00:12:00,763 --> 00:12:03,940
Speer:
The part was really a very
sturdy piece of metal.
163
00:12:03,984 --> 00:12:06,638
I was convinced that the part
had been damaged
164
00:12:06,682 --> 00:12:09,511
by a high explosion
because of the entrance hole
165
00:12:09,554 --> 00:12:12,993
and the exit hole
where you could obviously
see the entrance side
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00:12:13,036 --> 00:12:15,604
and obviously see
the exit side.
167
00:12:15,647 --> 00:12:17,780
Young:
'Cause Jim wasn't allowed to
take a picture of that part,
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00:12:17,824 --> 00:12:20,957
he looked around the hangar
and found other parts
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00:12:21,001 --> 00:12:23,568
with similar holes.
And I'm looking at this
170
00:12:23,612 --> 00:12:26,789
and I just don't know how these
could occur normally in a fire.
171
00:12:26,833 --> 00:12:31,272
I decided to take it over
to the FBI field lab.
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00:12:31,315 --> 00:12:34,754
Young:
The FBI has a little room
that they controlled
173
00:12:34,797 --> 00:12:37,060
and, of course,
we couldn't go in there.
174
00:12:37,104 --> 00:12:39,410
Speer:
I knocked on the door
and said,
175
00:12:39,454 --> 00:12:41,717
"I hear you have a couple
of machines that test
for nitrates in here."
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00:12:41,761 --> 00:12:43,153
And they said,
"Yes, we do."
177
00:12:43,197 --> 00:12:44,981
And I said, "Can you show
me how it works?"
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00:12:45,025 --> 00:12:48,593
They said, "Sure.
We'll run a test sample
for you."
179
00:12:48,637 --> 00:12:52,162
And I said,
"Well, how about you
running my test sample?
180
00:12:52,206 --> 00:12:54,948
Swab this piece
and check that for me."
181
00:12:54,991 --> 00:12:58,255
And so they did and sure
enough it tested positive,
182
00:12:58,299 --> 00:12:59,866
which I was sure
it would do.
183
00:12:59,909 --> 00:13:02,912
Positive for residue
of high explosives.
184
00:13:02,956 --> 00:13:05,349
So they picked up the phone
and called somebody,
185
00:13:05,393 --> 00:13:07,525
and in 90 seconds,
three FBI agents
186
00:13:07,569 --> 00:13:10,137
ran in the room
in their coats and ties
187
00:13:10,180 --> 00:13:11,878
and physically
pushed me aside
188
00:13:11,921 --> 00:13:13,923
and wouldn't let me hear
the conversation.
189
00:13:13,967 --> 00:13:15,664
Then they turned to me
and said the machine
190
00:13:15,707 --> 00:13:18,972
has frequent
false positives.
191
00:13:19,015 --> 00:13:21,191
There were a considerable
number of positives
192
00:13:21,235 --> 00:13:22,976
because the EGIS machine
193
00:13:23,019 --> 00:13:26,414
is susceptible
to false positives.
194
00:13:26,457 --> 00:13:28,764
Interviewer:
He was told that the machine
195
00:13:28,808 --> 00:13:32,115
frequently
yields false positives.
196
00:13:32,159 --> 00:13:33,769
That's not true.
197
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,866
At the point of TWA 800,
the EGIS detector
198
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:46,913
was very specific
199
00:13:46,956 --> 00:13:48,958
and very sensitive.
200
00:13:49,002 --> 00:13:50,264
Tom Stalcup:
The FBI are saying there were
201
00:13:50,307 --> 00:13:52,266
frequent false positives
with the EGIS.
202
00:13:52,309 --> 00:13:54,355
Is that possible?
203
00:13:54,398 --> 00:13:56,836
No, on the contrary.
204
00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:05,018
The EGIS
is extremely sensitive.
205
00:14:05,061 --> 00:14:09,805
It's sensitive down to about
50-100 picograms.
206
00:14:09,849 --> 00:14:12,155
It's a very small
amount of material.
207
00:14:12,199 --> 00:14:15,245
It's very rare,
if ever, to see
208
00:14:15,289 --> 00:14:19,075
a false alarm
with the EGIS.
209
00:14:19,119 --> 00:14:22,296
So they ran the test
four more times they said,
210
00:14:22,339 --> 00:14:25,777
but they physically would not
let me watch them run the tests.
211
00:14:25,821 --> 00:14:28,650
And they turned to me
then and said,
212
00:14:28,693 --> 00:14:31,522
"The last four tests
are negative.
213
00:14:31,566 --> 00:14:34,221
We're going to declare
the first test a false positive
214
00:14:34,264 --> 00:14:36,614
and the overall
results negative."
215
00:14:36,658 --> 00:14:38,486
The FBI then said,
216
00:14:38,529 --> 00:14:40,880
"Oh, we've got to take
this down to our lab
in Washington..."
217
00:14:40,923 --> 00:14:44,448
"And verify
that diagnosis."
218
00:14:44,492 --> 00:14:49,279
I don't understand why
material would be taken
219
00:14:49,323 --> 00:14:52,456
from that hangar
to the FBI laboratory.
220
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,677
It could be sampled
right at that hangar.
221
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,723
When you take it anywhere,
you're exposing it
222
00:14:58,767 --> 00:15:02,031
to potential
contamination factors.
223
00:15:02,075 --> 00:15:05,948
And the part disappeared
never to be returned.
224
00:15:05,992 --> 00:15:07,036
It never returned.
225
00:15:19,788 --> 00:15:21,616
[ laughing ]
226
00:15:26,969 --> 00:15:29,102
Stalcup:
I talked to
Jim Kallstrom about this
227
00:15:29,145 --> 00:15:31,756
and he laughed when I told him
things disappeared
228
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,671
from the hangar
never to return.
229
00:15:33,715 --> 00:15:36,370
I laugh that he'd laughed.
He knows better than that.
230
00:15:36,413 --> 00:15:38,633
What would happen
to the wreckage once
it got to Washington?
231
00:15:38,676 --> 00:15:42,028
After it was reexamined
down in Washington,
232
00:15:42,071 --> 00:15:45,422
whether it was--
if it was positive
233
00:15:45,466 --> 00:15:48,773
where it was indicating
it could be an actual
piece of evidence,
234
00:15:48,817 --> 00:15:49,818
then it wouldn't come back.
235
00:15:59,175 --> 00:16:01,003
Charles Wetli:
Many of the bodies
had parts of metal
236
00:16:01,047 --> 00:16:02,222
imbedded in the bodies.
237
00:16:02,265 --> 00:16:03,919
Pieces of metal
we couldn't identify.
238
00:16:12,449 --> 00:16:15,844
We initially separated out
these particles of metal
239
00:16:15,887 --> 00:16:19,239
in plastic containers
categorized by a number
we gave them
240
00:16:19,282 --> 00:16:21,197
and whether they came from
the surface of the body
241
00:16:21,241 --> 00:16:23,634
or they came from the internal
tissues of the body.
242
00:16:23,678 --> 00:16:26,811
And these were turned over
to the FBI.
243
00:16:26,855 --> 00:16:28,770
Normally, I'd expect
to receive the parts
244
00:16:28,813 --> 00:16:31,338
as he had discharged
them from his office.
245
00:16:31,381 --> 00:16:34,602
But then at some point,
someone from the FBI
246
00:16:34,645 --> 00:16:38,258
presented some plastic
containers
247
00:16:38,301 --> 00:16:39,955
with metal parts
in them.
248
00:16:39,999 --> 00:16:44,003
They weren't separated
as Dr. Wetli had described.
249
00:16:44,046 --> 00:16:46,092
They were pretty much together.
250
00:16:46,135 --> 00:16:48,398
We certainly lost
identification
251
00:16:48,442 --> 00:16:51,575
as to who the parts
were associated with.
252
00:16:51,619 --> 00:16:53,490
If you can
associate a wound
253
00:16:53,534 --> 00:16:55,144
with a
certain particle,
254
00:16:55,188 --> 00:16:56,928
it tells you something
about direction,
255
00:16:56,972 --> 00:16:59,279
it tells you something
about velocity
256
00:16:59,322 --> 00:17:01,672
of those parts.
257
00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:03,413
But once they're combined,
258
00:17:03,457 --> 00:17:05,546
there wasn't really much
analysis we could do.
259
00:17:07,852 --> 00:17:09,898
Witness:
That early evening,
my wife and I
260
00:17:09,941 --> 00:17:12,901
were walking up this road
right here at Smith Point
County Park
261
00:17:12,944 --> 00:17:16,383
and I happened to notice
on my left-hand side
262
00:17:16,426 --> 00:17:19,081
just over the dunes--
263
00:17:19,125 --> 00:17:22,171
I seen a streak of light
going just about straight up.
264
00:17:22,215 --> 00:17:24,913
It was, you know,
leaning a little to the right.
265
00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:28,134
We started to get witnesses
calling in.
266
00:17:28,177 --> 00:17:31,050
And then we sent agents out
to interview these witnesses.
267
00:17:31,093 --> 00:17:32,921
And eventually,
we interviewed
268
00:17:32,964 --> 00:17:35,402
several hundred witnesses
269
00:17:35,445 --> 00:17:37,317
that actually
witnessed the event.
270
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,755
The initial witness
statements all indicated
271
00:17:40,798 --> 00:17:42,365
that it might have been
a missile
272
00:17:42,409 --> 00:17:43,714
because they were
all describing
273
00:17:43,758 --> 00:17:45,847
seeing a streaking object
274
00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:47,414
in the sky
275
00:17:47,457 --> 00:17:49,720
and then a big fireball.
276
00:17:49,764 --> 00:17:51,679
Sounded very much
like a missile.
277
00:17:51,722 --> 00:17:53,202
Witness:
Half a second after that,
278
00:17:53,246 --> 00:17:56,292
there was this bright
starburst, all white light.
279
00:17:56,336 --> 00:17:58,555
And it just expanded
280
00:17:58,599 --> 00:18:00,862
in a matter of a split second
and it was huge.
281
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:03,952
Vernon Grose:
What the FBI did,
282
00:18:03,995 --> 00:18:05,867
which was
so onerous to me,
283
00:18:05,910 --> 00:18:08,217
is that they did
all the interviewing
of eyewitnesses.
284
00:18:15,442 --> 00:18:19,359
It was the FBI now
being sole interrogators.
285
00:18:19,402 --> 00:18:21,665
They kept the NTSB out.
286
00:18:21,709 --> 00:18:24,233
Hughes:
We've always conducted
our own interviews.
287
00:18:24,277 --> 00:18:25,539
We're pretty good at it.
288
00:18:25,582 --> 00:18:27,410
We've been doing it
for years.
289
00:18:27,454 --> 00:18:30,979
The vast majority
of witnesses have never
been interviewed
290
00:18:31,022 --> 00:18:33,373
by the National
Transportation Safety Board.
291
00:18:33,416 --> 00:18:36,637
I find it unconscionable.
292
00:18:54,829 --> 00:18:56,831
My name is
Vassilis Bakounis.
293
00:18:56,874 --> 00:18:59,094
I'm from Greece.
294
00:18:59,138 --> 00:19:02,880
I worked for 25 years
in Olympic Airways.
295
00:19:02,924 --> 00:19:06,493
In the mid-'90s I went
to the United States
296
00:19:06,536 --> 00:19:09,887
to get my commercial
pilot license.
297
00:19:09,931 --> 00:19:14,457
On that day, as I was flying
at approximately 2,000 feet
298
00:19:14,501 --> 00:19:16,459
over the shore
of Long Island,
299
00:19:16,503 --> 00:19:19,767
I saw the light coming
out of the sea.
300
00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:22,596
I followed that light
301
00:19:22,639 --> 00:19:26,208
for many seconds
302
00:19:26,252 --> 00:19:29,385
before it makes
303
00:19:29,429 --> 00:19:31,605
a kind of radius
to the right.
304
00:19:31,648 --> 00:19:35,391
And then I saw
the explosion.
305
00:19:35,435 --> 00:19:38,960
And then it's aflame
306
00:19:39,003 --> 00:19:41,615
and was falling down like
307
00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:44,270
an umbrella of flames.
308
00:19:48,622 --> 00:19:53,235
When I saw the light
starting climbing,
309
00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:57,065
it was really, really low.
Very low.
310
00:19:57,108 --> 00:20:01,025
And then it start climbing,
passing my altitude
311
00:20:01,069 --> 00:20:02,679
and the explosion.
312
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:16,215
Kallstrom:
We will know what happened
on that airplane.
313
00:20:16,258 --> 00:20:19,261
And I guarantee you that
the resources of the FBI
314
00:20:19,305 --> 00:20:22,830
and the great law enforcement
team we have at every level
315
00:20:22,873 --> 00:20:26,050
will be used on
that investigation.
316
00:20:26,094 --> 00:20:29,184
Virtually nothing
that the FBI learned
317
00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:31,708
about the investigation
318
00:20:31,752 --> 00:20:33,493
was provided to us.
319
00:20:33,536 --> 00:20:36,060
We didn't have much
cooperation from the FBI
320
00:20:36,104 --> 00:20:38,454
on any part
of the investigation.
321
00:20:38,498 --> 00:20:41,152
They had their
own explosive techs
in the hangar.
322
00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:43,111
They had their own
metallurgists in the hangar.
323
00:20:43,154 --> 00:20:47,289
Heckman:
We actually had FBI agents
on the Navy ships.
324
00:20:47,333 --> 00:20:51,075
And as soon as the divers
would bring a piece of debris
to the surface,
325
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,034
our agents would take
possession of it.
326
00:20:53,077 --> 00:20:55,819
They controlled the access
to the wreckage.
327
00:20:55,863 --> 00:20:57,473
We were never
allowed to see it
328
00:20:57,517 --> 00:21:00,694
until all the evidence techs
from the FBI had looked at it
329
00:21:00,737 --> 00:21:03,610
and decided that
we could see it.
330
00:21:03,653 --> 00:21:05,568
I mean, this was
unheard of.
331
00:21:07,614 --> 00:21:09,485
They had video recordings
332
00:21:09,529 --> 00:21:12,619
of the ROV searches
under the water.
333
00:21:12,662 --> 00:21:15,448
Speer:
It became
almost adversarial.
334
00:21:15,491 --> 00:21:19,365
One time, they asked us
to watch underground video
335
00:21:19,408 --> 00:21:21,541
looking for engine parts.
336
00:21:21,584 --> 00:21:23,891
There was a VCR tape
and they got the machine
set up and running.
337
00:21:23,934 --> 00:21:25,936
It was a basic machine.
338
00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:28,156
The FBI guy stayed there.
339
00:21:28,199 --> 00:21:30,593
And I said, "You know,
you can go off and do
whatever you need to do.
340
00:21:30,637 --> 00:21:32,552
We can run this machine."
341
00:21:32,595 --> 00:21:35,381
"No."
"Okay."
342
00:21:35,424 --> 00:21:37,513
Anyway, in looking
at the tape,
343
00:21:37,557 --> 00:21:40,168
there'd be a little
time clock on the top
344
00:21:40,211 --> 00:21:43,737
that had all the data
like the heading, the depth,
and time.
345
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:46,217
And after a while,
I began noticing
346
00:21:46,261 --> 00:21:48,437
that on the same heading
347
00:21:48,481 --> 00:21:51,179
there'd be interruptions
of the time clock.
348
00:21:51,222 --> 00:21:55,575
And I turned to
the FBI guy and said,
"This tape has been edited."
349
00:21:55,618 --> 00:22:00,362
And I said, "I want to see
the unedited version."
350
00:22:00,406 --> 00:22:03,017
And he said, "No."
351
00:22:11,852 --> 00:22:13,897
Man:
Death is nothing.
352
00:22:13,941 --> 00:22:16,857
I have only passed
into the next room.
353
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:19,773
I am me, you are you.
354
00:22:19,816 --> 00:22:23,864
We were for each other,
we are always.
355
00:22:23,907 --> 00:22:27,868
Call me by the name
you have always used.
356
00:22:27,911 --> 00:22:30,740
Speak to me
as you have always done.
357
00:22:30,784 --> 00:22:32,655
Change not your tone,
358
00:22:32,699 --> 00:22:36,093
but be solemn or sad
in manner.
359
00:22:36,137 --> 00:22:39,401
Laugh at the things
we laughed at together.
360
00:22:39,445 --> 00:22:42,230
Pray, smile,
think of me,
361
00:22:42,273 --> 00:22:43,405
pray for me.
362
00:22:50,107 --> 00:22:52,806
Speer:
They had barges that they
would load parts on.
363
00:22:52,849 --> 00:22:55,765
And they were to keep
a log on all the parts
they recovered
364
00:22:55,809 --> 00:22:57,550
so they knew where
all the parts came from
365
00:22:57,593 --> 00:22:59,682
because they were
trying to assess
366
00:22:59,726 --> 00:23:01,989
the breakup sequence
of the airplane.
367
00:23:04,295 --> 00:23:06,472
Not all of the evidence
from one part of the airplane
368
00:23:06,515 --> 00:23:08,430
is gonna fall in one spot.
369
00:23:08,474 --> 00:23:11,390
So there's actually
three debris fields.
370
00:23:11,433 --> 00:23:13,522
Rocky Miller:
We had tags and they
were color-coded
371
00:23:13,566 --> 00:23:15,524
according to the area
that they were found in.
372
00:23:15,568 --> 00:23:18,222
They also had latitude,
longitude on them,
373
00:23:18,266 --> 00:23:19,223
the date
that they were recovered.
374
00:23:26,056 --> 00:23:28,798
Hughes:
About a month
into the investigation,
375
00:23:28,842 --> 00:23:31,888
I noticed that some
of the materials
376
00:23:31,932 --> 00:23:34,369
in the hangar
had been disturbed at night.
377
00:23:36,937 --> 00:23:38,939
Miller:
One of my investigators,
John Desmond,
378
00:23:38,982 --> 00:23:42,203
came to me one day
and said, "Some of these tags
are being changed."
379
00:23:42,246 --> 00:23:43,639
I said, "What do you mean
they're being changed?"
380
00:23:43,683 --> 00:23:45,336
He said, "They're being
changed from yellow to white."
381
00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:48,514
Somebody was changing
tags on us.
382
00:23:48,557 --> 00:23:50,951
Now, there are only
two keys to that hangar.
383
00:23:50,994 --> 00:23:53,693
I had one, the security chief
had the other.
384
00:23:53,736 --> 00:23:56,826
Miller:
I went over to the FBI
and informed them
385
00:23:56,870 --> 00:24:00,264
that we thought somebody
was in our hangar after
we'd locked down at night.
386
00:24:00,308 --> 00:24:03,485
Hughes:
They set up video
surveillance in my hangar
387
00:24:03,529 --> 00:24:07,750
and found that three FBI agents
from another office
388
00:24:07,794 --> 00:24:11,711
had entered the hangar
for purposes unknown
389
00:24:11,754 --> 00:24:13,800
in the wee hours
of the morning.
390
00:24:13,843 --> 00:24:16,193
Miller:
We were told it was a couple
of new FBI agents.
391
00:24:16,237 --> 00:24:18,239
Interviewer:
And did they ever tell you
who they were?
392
00:24:18,282 --> 00:24:20,459
No.
393
00:24:20,502 --> 00:24:24,201
Hughes: On one occasion
an agent from California
was brought in.
394
00:24:24,245 --> 00:24:26,552
There was the famous incident
where little Ricky Hahn
395
00:24:26,595 --> 00:24:28,902
was out with a piece
of fuselage
396
00:24:28,945 --> 00:24:30,512
trying to bend it
in the middle of the night.
397
00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:34,473
I found him
in the main hangar
398
00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:38,041
with a hammer pounding
on some of the wreckage
trying to flatten it out.
399
00:24:38,085 --> 00:24:40,609
The guy was hammering
on a piece of fuselage.
400
00:24:40,653 --> 00:24:44,178
That defies
any common sense.
401
00:24:44,221 --> 00:24:46,310
You don't alter
or destroy evidence.
402
00:24:46,354 --> 00:24:49,009
You're altering
the shape of a material
403
00:24:49,052 --> 00:24:52,969
which has acquired that shape
as a result of some forces.
404
00:24:53,013 --> 00:24:55,319
Hughes:
That was brought to
the investigator in charge's
405
00:24:55,363 --> 00:24:58,018
attention, Mr. Dickinson.
Nothing happened.
406
00:24:58,061 --> 00:25:01,456
Every time there was
a problem, it was ignored.
407
00:25:03,414 --> 00:25:06,461
Man:
It was about 8:30.
408
00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:08,115
The sun was still up.
409
00:25:08,158 --> 00:25:11,292
Heckman:
We interviewed several
hundred witnesses
410
00:25:11,335 --> 00:25:12,815
that actually witnessed
the event.
411
00:25:12,859 --> 00:25:15,470
Man:
I was standing on the bridge
looking south.
412
00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:17,124
Woman:
It was a very warm night.
413
00:25:17,167 --> 00:25:18,560
Man #2:
We were taking a walk
that evening.
414
00:25:18,604 --> 00:25:20,257
Man #3:
We were taking a nice
night flight.
415
00:25:20,301 --> 00:25:21,345
Woman #2:
I was walking with
a friend of mine.
416
00:25:21,389 --> 00:25:22,956
Man #4:
I was standing on the dock
417
00:25:22,999 --> 00:25:24,610
and I was looking out in
a southeasterly direction.
418
00:25:24,653 --> 00:25:28,048
I was at the--
I'm very upset,
419
00:25:28,091 --> 00:25:30,180
even still
all these years later.
420
00:25:34,837 --> 00:25:38,188
I was at Davis Park
with my two young daughters.
421
00:25:38,232 --> 00:25:39,842
I had just put them to bed.
422
00:25:39,886 --> 00:25:42,453
I was standing on the bridge
looking south.
423
00:25:42,497 --> 00:25:45,500
All of a sudden, I decided
I had to go outside,
424
00:25:45,544 --> 00:25:48,111
get the towels
off the front deck,
bring them in the house.
425
00:25:48,155 --> 00:25:52,420
I go outside,
turn to the left...
426
00:25:52,463 --> 00:25:53,682
Just happened to look
up at the sky.
427
00:25:53,726 --> 00:25:56,380
...and I see something
that's going across
428
00:25:56,424 --> 00:25:58,600
right in my line of sight.
429
00:25:58,644 --> 00:26:02,082
I actually see something
behind a tree line,
430
00:26:02,125 --> 00:26:05,128
much like my thumb,
go up in the air.
431
00:26:05,172 --> 00:26:08,392
I saw what appeared to be
cheap fireworks.
432
00:26:08,436 --> 00:26:10,873
I noticed a streak of light
heading up towards the sky.
433
00:26:10,917 --> 00:26:13,484
I saw this white light
shoot up in the sky.
434
00:26:13,528 --> 00:26:14,703
There's something going up
in the sky.
435
00:26:14,747 --> 00:26:17,880
This rocket went up
in the air.
436
00:26:17,924 --> 00:26:19,273
And I seen this white light.
437
00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:20,927
And I said, "Someone shot
off a flare."
438
00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:22,363
And it looked like a flare
going up.
439
00:26:22,406 --> 00:26:24,147
And I'm trying to figure out
what it is
440
00:26:24,191 --> 00:26:26,106
because it looked
completely out of place.
441
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:27,934
Larger than
a standard flare.
442
00:26:27,977 --> 00:26:30,501
And it appeared behind
a house to my right.
443
00:26:30,545 --> 00:26:33,156
And it went up
and out to sea.
444
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,291
I watched this object go
outbound towards the horizon.
445
00:26:37,334 --> 00:26:39,075
It was moving
very rapidly.
446
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,556
- It was fast.
- Zoop! Just like that.
447
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,863
It was going very quickly.
It's very, very shiny.
448
00:26:43,906 --> 00:26:46,082
Kind of like a little
smoke plume behind it.
449
00:26:46,126 --> 00:26:49,520
Looked like a missile
vapor trail to me.
450
00:26:49,564 --> 00:26:51,044
Then it turned to the left.
451
00:26:51,087 --> 00:26:52,959
- Then it turned.
- And it arced over.
452
00:26:53,002 --> 00:26:54,656
And it looked like it
curved to the right.
453
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:57,659
Then it momentarily
disappeared.
454
00:26:57,703 --> 00:26:59,487
It disappeared
for a second or two.
455
00:26:59,530 --> 00:27:01,663
Then it just sort of disappeared
from my vision.
456
00:27:01,707 --> 00:27:04,100
Then I lost it
'cause there was clouds.
457
00:27:04,144 --> 00:27:05,754
Then I saw it again.
458
00:27:05,798 --> 00:27:09,715
It goes up.
And there was a plane
that was flying along.
459
00:27:09,758 --> 00:27:12,239
And I saw a flash
of an aircraft light.
460
00:27:12,282 --> 00:27:16,286
Blink, blink, blink.
461
00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:18,158
It goes up right to
the side of the plane,
462
00:27:18,201 --> 00:27:20,160
and I remember thinking
to myself--
463
00:27:20,203 --> 00:27:24,033
I was very frightened
that it was gonna hit the plane.
464
00:27:24,077 --> 00:27:27,471
And it was-- poof!
It didn't actually hit
the plane.
465
00:27:27,515 --> 00:27:28,951
It exploded
right next to it.
466
00:27:30,431 --> 00:27:32,259
Now,I know nothing
about military
467
00:27:32,302 --> 00:27:34,609
or any of that,
so I don't know
468
00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:37,656
if its exploding next to it
is still significant.
469
00:27:37,699 --> 00:27:39,788
I also noticed on the horizon
470
00:27:39,832 --> 00:27:42,965
a very bright mast light
of a ship.
471
00:27:43,009 --> 00:27:46,447
From the mast light,
there was another flash
472
00:27:46,490 --> 00:27:50,233
and I saw another object
rise out of the ocean.
473
00:27:50,277 --> 00:27:53,323
The next thing,
something comes up from
underneath the plane.
474
00:27:53,367 --> 00:27:54,716
I saw an explosion.
475
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,892
This big explosion.
476
00:27:56,936 --> 00:27:59,547
And I'm looking at this
and I go--
477
00:27:59,590 --> 00:28:01,854
I remember saying
out loud to myself,
478
00:28:01,897 --> 00:28:04,900
"Gee, look at that.
A plane broken in the sky."
479
00:28:04,944 --> 00:28:07,990
And then the very next day,
the FBI came to talk to me.
480
00:28:08,034 --> 00:28:11,515
It was almost abusive
in a sense.
481
00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:12,952
They took me into
the back room.
482
00:28:12,995 --> 00:28:15,476
They said, "Well, we heard
that you saw something.
483
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,870
Tell us what you saw."
I told them what I saw
484
00:28:17,913 --> 00:28:20,350
and they looked me straight
in the face and said,
485
00:28:20,394 --> 00:28:24,093
"You did not see that.
You saw nothing."
486
00:29:04,655 --> 00:29:07,006
Then they decided to jump
to a conclusion.
487
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,799
Once that happened,
objectivity
488
00:29:17,843 --> 00:29:19,583
went out the window
as far as I'm concerned.
489
00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:24,458
Young:
That's when the NTSB
put on their major push
490
00:29:24,501 --> 00:29:27,504
for a mechanical failure.
491
00:29:29,768 --> 00:29:32,771
Stalcup:
And were you in agreement
with that push?
492
00:29:32,814 --> 00:29:35,382
We didn't find any part
of the airplane
493
00:29:35,425 --> 00:29:37,079
that indicated
a mechanical failure.
494
00:29:41,475 --> 00:29:43,520
Speer:
They said the airplane
exploded
495
00:29:43,564 --> 00:29:45,566
from the center fuel tank.
496
00:29:45,609 --> 00:29:49,831
Cause unknown.
Suspect a fuel explosion.
497
00:29:49,875 --> 00:29:51,964
Merritt Birky:
Early in the investigation,
498
00:29:52,007 --> 00:29:54,357
some of the first hardware
that was brought up
499
00:29:54,401 --> 00:29:56,707
was from that
center wing tank.
500
00:30:05,847 --> 00:30:07,936
Some of the parts
from that tank
501
00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:11,897
showed evidence of burning,
melted aluminum.
502
00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:15,204
So we knew we had a fire
in that center wing tank.
503
00:30:15,248 --> 00:30:18,468
Hughes:
I think you can see
from the forensic evidence,
504
00:30:18,512 --> 00:30:21,471
something did happen in
or around the center fuel tank.
505
00:30:21,515 --> 00:30:24,518
The plane sat out
in the sun.
506
00:30:24,561 --> 00:30:26,650
It was pretty hot
in July,
507
00:30:26,694 --> 00:30:30,306
which increased
the temperature of the tank
in the aircraft
508
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:32,091
to vaporize the fuel,
509
00:30:32,134 --> 00:30:34,571
so you'd have enough vapor
there to cause an explosion
510
00:30:34,615 --> 00:30:36,051
if you ignite the fuel.
511
00:30:39,185 --> 00:30:41,361
The question remaining is
512
00:30:41,404 --> 00:30:43,189
what sparked the explosion?
513
00:30:43,232 --> 00:30:45,365
Stalcup:
What ignited those vapors?
514
00:30:45,408 --> 00:30:47,889
Well, that's-- that's--
515
00:30:47,933 --> 00:30:50,805
that's never been
fully proven.
516
00:30:50,849 --> 00:30:55,027
Hughes:
The theory was that wiring
had failed
517
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:56,506
and sparked the explosion.
518
00:30:56,550 --> 00:30:58,117
We never found any of that.
519
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,946
We didn't find any evidence
in the wiring
520
00:31:00,989 --> 00:31:04,253
on the aircraft that would have
indicated that a spark occurred
521
00:31:04,297 --> 00:31:07,343
inside the center wing tank
to blow it up.
522
00:31:07,387 --> 00:31:10,477
Interviewer: Did anybody
in the investigation
find this wiring?
523
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,913
Not to my knowledge, no.
524
00:31:11,957 --> 00:31:14,655
Speer:
The only wiring
in the center fuel tank
525
00:31:14,698 --> 00:31:16,918
is to the fuel
quantity gauge,
526
00:31:16,962 --> 00:31:19,529
and that was the fine wire
meant for milliamps.
527
00:31:19,573 --> 00:31:23,011
The main power on the airplane
is 115 volt AC,
528
00:31:23,055 --> 00:31:25,448
and it would have
taken 1,200 volts
529
00:31:25,492 --> 00:31:27,189
to arc the fuel
quantity probe,
530
00:31:27,233 --> 00:31:30,889
and there's no 1,200 volt
electricity on the airplane
531
00:31:30,932 --> 00:31:32,368
outside of
the engine igniters
532
00:31:32,412 --> 00:31:34,849
and that's individual
to each engine.
533
00:31:34,893 --> 00:31:39,636
So the cause of the ignition
of the center fuel tank
534
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,076
had to be something other
than airplane electronics.
535
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:45,991
James Traficant:
What I'm going to do
is to request
536
00:31:46,034 --> 00:31:48,210
that Mr. Kallstrom
537
00:31:48,254 --> 00:31:50,647
come up to the table
at this point.
538
00:31:50,691 --> 00:31:53,737
Mr. James K. Kallstrom,
who is assistant director
539
00:31:53,781 --> 00:31:55,217
in charge of
the New York office
540
00:31:55,261 --> 00:31:57,350
of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation.
541
00:31:57,393 --> 00:32:00,005
Roy Blunt:
Mr. Kallstrom, would you just
give us some information
542
00:32:00,048 --> 00:32:03,312
on how many witnesses
on the ground
543
00:32:03,356 --> 00:32:07,882
or in other airplanes
at the time believe they
saw something
544
00:32:07,926 --> 00:32:10,711
coming from the ground
headed toward that plane?
545
00:32:10,754 --> 00:32:13,627
Well, I wouldn't want to say
that they all saw something
coming from the ground.
546
00:32:13,670 --> 00:32:16,760
There are about 200 people
547
00:32:16,804 --> 00:32:19,807
that saw events in the sky
that they described.
548
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:21,591
None of which described
a missile.
549
00:32:36,345 --> 00:32:38,608
Blunt:
How many of them
would you say saw
550
00:32:38,652 --> 00:32:40,175
approximately
the same thing?
551
00:32:41,785 --> 00:32:45,050
A good bulk of the people
on the shore
552
00:32:45,093 --> 00:32:48,749
report and we triangulate
553
00:32:48,792 --> 00:32:51,317
that they're describing
roughly the same event.
554
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,408
So let's say 60-70.
555
00:32:57,584 --> 00:33:01,022
We had witnesses that saw
things in the sky.
556
00:33:01,066 --> 00:33:03,329
And we talked about
the possibility that a missile,
557
00:33:03,372 --> 00:33:05,679
as horrid as that is,
558
00:33:05,722 --> 00:33:07,768
could have taken down
this airplane.
559
00:33:07,811 --> 00:33:10,597
And we thought
that needs to be addressed.
560
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,251
Could you play
the videotape, please?
561
00:33:13,992 --> 00:33:15,645
Narrator:
The following program
was produced
562
00:33:15,689 --> 00:33:17,560
by the Central
Intelligence Agency.
563
00:33:20,433 --> 00:33:22,043
[ music playing ]
564
00:33:33,881 --> 00:33:36,405
Stalcup:
It was November 18, 1997.
565
00:33:36,449 --> 00:33:39,756
I was in the middle of
grad school studying physics.
566
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,281
I was sitting on my couch
flipping through the channels
567
00:33:42,324 --> 00:33:45,414
with my girlfriend
and the FBI came on
568
00:33:45,458 --> 00:33:47,808
and they said it was
about this plane crash,
569
00:33:47,851 --> 00:33:51,116
which I had heard
things about in the past,
and I was interested.
570
00:33:51,159 --> 00:33:53,770
Narrator:
Of particular concern
to FBI investigators
571
00:33:53,814 --> 00:33:55,642
were reports from dozens
of eyewitnesses
572
00:33:55,685 --> 00:33:57,731
who, on the evening
of July 17,
573
00:33:57,774 --> 00:34:01,039
recall seeing an object,
usually described as a flare
574
00:34:01,082 --> 00:34:04,390
or firework,
ascend and culminate
in an explosion.
575
00:34:04,433 --> 00:34:06,044
Was it a missile?
576
00:34:06,087 --> 00:34:08,698
Did foreign terrorists
destroy the aircraft?
577
00:34:08,742 --> 00:34:11,005
At the request of the FBI,
578
00:34:11,049 --> 00:34:14,704
CIA weapon analysts
look into this possibility.
579
00:34:14,748 --> 00:34:16,706
The CIA's conclusion--
580
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:19,622
the eyewitnesses
did not see a missile.
581
00:34:19,666 --> 00:34:21,798
Just after the aircraft
exploded,
582
00:34:21,842 --> 00:34:23,713
it pitched up abruptly
583
00:34:23,757 --> 00:34:26,064
and climbed several
thousand feet
584
00:34:26,107 --> 00:34:30,720
from 13,800 feet
to about 17,000 feet.
585
00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:32,853
Those who said they saw
something ascend
586
00:34:32,896 --> 00:34:35,247
and culminate in the explosion
probably saw
587
00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:38,380
the burning aircraft ascend
and erupt into a fireball,
588
00:34:38,424 --> 00:34:41,035
not a missile.
589
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,212
To date,
there is no evidence
590
00:34:44,256 --> 00:34:48,564
that anyone saw a missile
shoot down TWA flight 800.
591
00:34:48,608 --> 00:34:50,523
Not a missile.
592
00:34:50,566 --> 00:34:52,829
Never was,
never will be.
593
00:34:54,962 --> 00:34:56,485
Stalcup:
I felt assaulted.
594
00:34:56,529 --> 00:34:59,401
I felt as if I was
being lied to.
595
00:34:59,445 --> 00:35:02,709
It looked more like a big
piece of propaganda
596
00:35:02,752 --> 00:35:04,667
than the results
597
00:35:04,711 --> 00:35:06,930
of an air crash
investigation.
598
00:35:06,974 --> 00:35:09,977
And I just knew that there
was something wrong.
599
00:35:10,020 --> 00:35:13,154
Throughout the animation,
they had the underlined words
600
00:35:13,198 --> 00:35:16,070
"not a missile"
and the narrator would say,
"It was not a missile."
601
00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:17,680
Narrator:
Not a missile.
602
00:35:17,724 --> 00:35:19,726
It just seemed odd to me
603
00:35:19,769 --> 00:35:21,684
that they would have to focus
so much on telling us
604
00:35:21,728 --> 00:35:23,208
what it wasn't
rather than what it was.
605
00:35:23,251 --> 00:35:24,818
[ modem hissing ]
606
00:35:28,169 --> 00:35:30,911
That night, I went on
my dial-up connection
607
00:35:30,954 --> 00:35:33,305
and that's when I found out
there was an eyewitness
608
00:35:33,348 --> 00:35:35,524
in the air at the time,
609
00:35:35,568 --> 00:35:37,700
an Air National
Guard captain who was in
a Black Hawk helicopter
610
00:35:37,744 --> 00:35:40,138
who saw an object
strike another object
611
00:35:40,181 --> 00:35:41,400
that was coming
from the right.
612
00:35:41,443 --> 00:35:43,706
Right then and there
I said, "My goodness."
613
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:46,970
So I thought, "Well,
do I believe this article
614
00:35:47,014 --> 00:35:48,929
that I'm reading
on the Internet?"
615
00:35:48,972 --> 00:35:51,149
And I thought,
"Well, I'll just go right
to the source themselves."
616
00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:54,891
There was a website
that listed eyewitnesses
617
00:35:54,935 --> 00:35:58,025
that were listed by the media,
eyewitness names.
618
00:35:58,068 --> 00:35:59,940
There was a Runyan,
there was an Angelides,
619
00:35:59,983 --> 00:36:01,507
there was a Myron.
620
00:36:01,550 --> 00:36:03,422
I think those were the first
three people I called.
621
00:36:03,465 --> 00:36:07,426
And I said I'm this interested
citizen over here
622
00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:10,385
and they told me what they saw
and it was in vivid terms.
623
00:36:10,429 --> 00:36:12,257
And I said,
"Thank you very much."
And I called the next person.
624
00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:15,695
They all had the same story.
And that's when I got hooked.
625
00:36:18,088 --> 00:36:20,395
Because these people
626
00:36:20,439 --> 00:36:22,267
saw something that night.
627
00:36:25,574 --> 00:36:28,708
Stalcup:
So the CIA video,
what do you think of that?
628
00:36:28,751 --> 00:36:30,579
It's a nice cartoon.
629
00:36:30,623 --> 00:36:34,670
I think the zoom climb
is fraud, waste, and abuse.
630
00:36:34,714 --> 00:36:37,282
I don't know how they got the CIA to get involved in this
631
00:36:37,325 --> 00:36:39,762
absolutely ridiculous
632
00:36:39,806 --> 00:36:41,634
animation.
633
00:36:41,677 --> 00:36:44,724
I don't think that there's
any engineering justification
634
00:36:44,767 --> 00:36:48,162
that says that
the airplane can do what
their video said it did.
635
00:36:48,206 --> 00:36:52,079
Every pilot thought,
"Baloney. That could
never happen."
636
00:36:52,122 --> 00:36:54,429
Trying to claim that
the airplane tipped up enough
637
00:36:54,473 --> 00:36:56,823
after the nose came off
and climbed...
638
00:36:56,866 --> 00:36:59,260
The nose weighs about
90,000 pounds.
639
00:36:59,304 --> 00:37:01,654
If you disrupt the center
of gravity that much
640
00:37:01,697 --> 00:37:04,961
and the airplane tips up,
it's gonna either stall
641
00:37:05,005 --> 00:37:08,443
and fall
or break apart instantly.
642
00:37:08,487 --> 00:37:11,838
Stalcup: Did you happen
to watch the CIA animation
about what happened?
643
00:37:11,881 --> 00:37:14,536
- Yes, I did.
- And what did you think
about that animation?
644
00:37:14,580 --> 00:37:17,844
That animation
didn't resemble
645
00:37:17,887 --> 00:37:20,890
anything that I saw
in any way whatsoever.
646
00:37:20,934 --> 00:37:24,198
I actually watched it
to the point
647
00:37:24,242 --> 00:37:27,201
when they showed that
the plane split in two
648
00:37:27,245 --> 00:37:29,334
and one half went up
and one half went down.
649
00:37:29,377 --> 00:37:32,032
As soon as I seen that part
of their video,
650
00:37:32,075 --> 00:37:34,382
I didn't watch any more
after that
651
00:37:34,426 --> 00:37:37,342
because it's just
incredibly wrong
652
00:37:37,385 --> 00:37:39,169
and that's not what I seen.
653
00:37:39,213 --> 00:37:41,128
That is not what happened
that evening.
654
00:37:41,171 --> 00:37:45,132
Did you ever see anything
rise up out of the fireball?
655
00:37:45,175 --> 00:37:47,177
No, absolutely not.
656
00:37:47,221 --> 00:37:50,311
That fireball
fell like a stone.
657
00:37:50,355 --> 00:37:52,095
That streak you saw,
658
00:37:52,139 --> 00:37:54,359
could that have been
an aircraft?
659
00:37:54,402 --> 00:37:56,752
No, it was far too fast.
660
00:37:56,796 --> 00:37:59,451
I've never seen a plane
go that fast up like that.
661
00:37:59,494 --> 00:38:01,322
These people
on the shoreline
662
00:38:01,366 --> 00:38:04,891
saw this bright streak
originating from near
the surface,
663
00:38:04,934 --> 00:38:07,415
not a point two and a half
miles in the sky.
664
00:38:18,208 --> 00:38:20,210
How they calculated
that zoom climb,
665
00:38:20,254 --> 00:38:22,952
if I could get
that information,
666
00:38:22,996 --> 00:38:26,565
I could prove that
they jimmied the data.
667
00:38:26,608 --> 00:38:29,568
I filed a Freedom
of Information Act request
668
00:38:29,611 --> 00:38:32,832
to the CIA and NTSB
669
00:38:32,875 --> 00:38:36,575
for the data
and calculations that they
used for that zoom climb.
670
00:38:36,618 --> 00:38:39,186
They refused to give me
the information.
671
00:38:39,229 --> 00:38:41,884
Stalcup:
But Ray's efforts
weren't a total loss.
672
00:38:41,928 --> 00:38:44,583
He actually got some internal
memos from the CIA.
673
00:38:44,626 --> 00:38:47,890
And I filed a lawsuit
against the CIA separately
674
00:38:47,934 --> 00:38:49,892
and got other documents
and, between the two of us,
675
00:38:49,936 --> 00:38:52,068
we had a nice little history
of e-mails
676
00:38:52,112 --> 00:38:54,332
from inside
that small group in the CIA
677
00:38:54,375 --> 00:38:56,203
that did the animation.
678
00:38:56,246 --> 00:38:59,424
One of the documents
specifically discussed
679
00:38:59,467 --> 00:39:01,643
eyewitness Mike Wire.
680
00:39:01,687 --> 00:39:04,167
He's standing on a bridge
681
00:39:04,211 --> 00:39:06,387
and he sees this what he calls
a cheap firework
682
00:39:06,431 --> 00:39:09,782
come by a house and kind of
arcs up and goes out.
683
00:39:09,825 --> 00:39:12,611
What I saw looked like
cheap fireworks
684
00:39:12,654 --> 00:39:15,004
coming out from behind
the roofline
685
00:39:15,048 --> 00:39:16,658
of the double chimney house.
686
00:39:16,702 --> 00:39:20,270
It went on a 45 to 50-degree
angle out to sea
687
00:39:20,314 --> 00:39:23,273
and it wavered,
zigzagged up and down.
688
00:39:23,317 --> 00:39:26,102
Stalcup:
The memo shows that the team
that created the animation
689
00:39:26,146 --> 00:39:28,801
knew that the ascending light
that Mike Wire saw
690
00:39:28,844 --> 00:39:30,890
couldn't have been
the aircraft.
691
00:39:30,933 --> 00:39:34,023
But their animation that went
on national television
692
00:39:34,067 --> 00:39:35,851
told a completely
different story.
693
00:39:35,895 --> 00:39:37,375
Narrator:
A fourth eyewitness reported
694
00:39:37,418 --> 00:39:39,464
that he watched a white light,
perhaps a firework,
695
00:39:39,507 --> 00:39:41,770
traveling upward
at a steep angle.
696
00:39:41,814 --> 00:39:44,947
Stalcup: The video shows
the light starting at a point
high up in the sky,
697
00:39:44,991 --> 00:39:47,428
not behind the house the way Mike Wire described it.
698
00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:50,605
The CIA animation shows it
approximately here in the sky.
699
00:39:50,649 --> 00:39:53,521
And then it proceeds
from there
700
00:39:53,565 --> 00:39:55,958
as a streak of light
up into the sky,
701
00:39:56,002 --> 00:39:57,960
but that's not what I saw.
702
00:39:58,004 --> 00:40:00,267
What I saw,
703
00:40:00,310 --> 00:40:02,443
something left
behind the house
704
00:40:02,487 --> 00:40:06,055
and went up to the plane,
the plane blew up.
705
00:40:06,099 --> 00:40:07,448
Stalcup:
After watching the animation,
706
00:40:07,492 --> 00:40:08,667
did that cause you
to do anything?
707
00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:10,886
Well, that's when
I called the FBI,
708
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:14,281
you know, and I said,
"You seem to be a little off
709
00:40:14,324 --> 00:40:16,457
on what you're
depicting here.
710
00:40:16,501 --> 00:40:19,286
That's not the way
the events unfolded."
711
00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:24,639
And what did they say?
712
00:40:24,683 --> 00:40:26,728
They said,
"Do you want to change
your story?"
713
00:40:26,772 --> 00:40:28,469
And I said, "No."
714
00:40:28,513 --> 00:40:30,863
I said, "But you really need
to send somebody out here
715
00:40:30,906 --> 00:40:34,606
that can understand
what I'm explaining."
716
00:40:34,649 --> 00:40:36,651
Okay, and what happened?
717
00:40:36,695 --> 00:40:38,392
Never heard from them.
718
00:40:38,436 --> 00:40:40,960
Interviewer:
People who don't know
each other
719
00:40:41,003 --> 00:40:42,788
all up and down the coast,
720
00:40:42,831 --> 00:40:44,616
they saw the same thing
721
00:40:44,659 --> 00:40:47,575
and you're saying there was
a mass misperception.
722
00:40:47,619 --> 00:40:49,882
Well...
[ clears throat ]
723
00:40:49,925 --> 00:40:52,232
not necessarily
a misperception.
724
00:40:52,275 --> 00:40:54,495
This has been documented
over and over again
725
00:40:54,539 --> 00:40:56,105
in traumatic events.
726
00:40:56,149 --> 00:40:59,631
The human mind
tends to change things
727
00:40:59,674 --> 00:41:02,372
or change the sequences
just because of the trauma
728
00:41:02,416 --> 00:41:03,765
of what they saw.
729
00:41:03,809 --> 00:41:06,551
They don't remember
things in the sequence.
730
00:41:06,594 --> 00:41:08,553
Well, they're all
very consistent.
731
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:12,121
So, if you're saying
it's mass misperception,
732
00:41:12,165 --> 00:41:14,123
which you are, really,
right?
733
00:41:14,167 --> 00:41:16,474
I guess.
734
00:41:16,517 --> 00:41:18,519
I find that very bizarre.
735
00:41:18,563 --> 00:41:20,478
I can't explain it.
736
00:41:20,521 --> 00:41:23,481
I'm not
a psychology expert.
737
00:41:23,524 --> 00:41:24,917
But you did explain it.
738
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,049
Well, I explain it the way
it was explained to me.
739
00:41:29,095 --> 00:41:31,053
Young:
If you don't mind me
being blunt,
740
00:41:31,097 --> 00:41:34,274
if the airplane
didn't climb,
741
00:41:34,317 --> 00:41:38,452
then the answer for what
the witnesses saw in the sky
742
00:41:38,496 --> 00:41:41,760
might be
an unacceptable one.
743
00:41:41,803 --> 00:41:45,677
All of a sudden,
this rocket went up
in the air.
744
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,549
And then there was
this big explosion.
745
00:41:48,593 --> 00:41:52,553
Days later,
the FBI came to visit.
746
00:41:52,597 --> 00:41:55,469
And they sat down
and they were talking to me
747
00:41:55,513 --> 00:41:58,341
and they're asking me
questions and I told them
my story.
748
00:41:58,385 --> 00:42:00,909
And he had his little pad.
749
00:42:00,953 --> 00:42:02,781
And then when
the interview was over,
750
00:42:02,824 --> 00:42:04,434
they looked at me and said,
751
00:42:04,478 --> 00:42:06,828
"You have your papers in
752
00:42:06,872 --> 00:42:09,352
to become an American
citizen, don't you?"
753
00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:12,791
And I said, "Yes.
I'm waiting to be called."
754
00:42:12,834 --> 00:42:15,315
They said, "Well, it would
be very wise of you
755
00:42:15,358 --> 00:42:17,970
if you want to become
an American citizen
756
00:42:18,013 --> 00:42:21,016
to keep very quiet about this
and not to talk about it."
757
00:42:21,060 --> 00:42:23,584
Incredible.
758
00:42:23,628 --> 00:42:26,587
And so I didn't because
I figured, you know,
759
00:42:26,631 --> 00:42:29,372
I wanted to become
an American citizen.
760
00:42:33,638 --> 00:42:37,293
Hughes:
David Mayer was a relatively
new NTSB employee
761
00:42:37,337 --> 00:42:40,470
who had no training
or experience in any aspect
762
00:42:40,514 --> 00:42:43,038
of transportation accident
investigation.
763
00:42:43,082 --> 00:42:47,260
Almost a year after
the investigation began,
764
00:42:47,303 --> 00:42:50,611
I noticed that he had
come to my hangar
765
00:42:50,655 --> 00:42:53,309
and started to change
evidence tags.
766
00:42:53,353 --> 00:42:55,268
Never bothered to ask me.
767
00:42:55,311 --> 00:42:57,618
Just started changing them.
768
00:42:57,662 --> 00:43:00,099
The things that he did,
technically, were illegal.
769
00:43:01,970 --> 00:43:04,364
There are, I think,
10 or 12 pieces of evidence
770
00:43:04,407 --> 00:43:07,149
where he altered the location
from which they were recovered.
771
00:43:07,193 --> 00:43:09,499
Young:
In one case, we had a piece
772
00:43:09,543 --> 00:43:11,676
that was originally recovered
in the yellow zone
773
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,678
and it was moved
to the red zone
774
00:43:13,721 --> 00:43:17,290
because it made things
look nicer.
775
00:43:17,333 --> 00:43:20,510
One piece, the aft keel beam
under the center tank,
776
00:43:20,554 --> 00:43:22,295
came down
in the yellow zone.
777
00:43:22,338 --> 00:43:24,645
Well, it would have
fit much better
778
00:43:24,689 --> 00:43:26,647
with the exploding
center tank theory
779
00:43:26,691 --> 00:43:28,170
if it had come down
in the red zone.
780
00:43:28,214 --> 00:43:30,738
So it was moved
to the red zone.
781
00:43:32,566 --> 00:43:35,613
Interviewer:
You're basically telling me
782
00:43:35,656 --> 00:43:39,747
that this was an agenda-driven
investigation.
783
00:43:39,791 --> 00:43:42,881
I think there's a strong
possibility of that.
784
00:43:42,924 --> 00:43:45,623
And the agenda was,
"That this is an accident,
785
00:43:45,666 --> 00:43:47,363
make it so."
786
00:43:51,063 --> 00:43:54,153
It's about 22 minutes
after the hour and Jim Hall,
787
00:43:54,196 --> 00:43:56,895
who is the chairman
of the National Transportation
Safety Board, is in Baltimore.
788
00:43:56,938 --> 00:43:58,505
- Good morning, Mr. Hall.
- Morning, Brian.
789
00:43:58,548 --> 00:44:00,115
Brian:
Tell us what's gonna
go on today.
790
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:02,117
Hall:
Well, Brian, we're gonna have
a public hearing
791
00:44:02,161 --> 00:44:04,206
on the TWA 800 accident.
792
00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:06,992
It's the 121st hearing
793
00:44:07,035 --> 00:44:10,473
the Board has held
on a major aviation accident.
794
00:44:10,517 --> 00:44:14,086
These hearings are an exercise
in public accountability.
795
00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:20,092
Dan Rather:
The National Transportation
and Safety Board hearings
796
00:44:20,135 --> 00:44:22,660
on the TWA flight 800 crash
797
00:44:22,703 --> 00:44:26,098
focused today on the 747's
center fuel tank.
798
00:44:26,141 --> 00:44:29,667
Grose:
After they've gotten
to a certain stage
799
00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:33,627
of investigation, the NTSB
holds a public hearing.
800
00:44:33,671 --> 00:44:35,890
Miller:
Prior to the public hearing
in Baltimore,
801
00:44:35,934 --> 00:44:37,892
we had what you'd call
a prehearing conference.
802
00:44:37,936 --> 00:44:40,982
At its conclusion,
I was asked to come to the IIC,
803
00:44:41,026 --> 00:44:43,942
the investigator
in charge's office,
Al Dickinson.
804
00:44:43,985 --> 00:44:46,858
And in his office
he sat me down and told me
805
00:44:46,901 --> 00:44:49,121
that I was not allowed
to ask any questions
806
00:44:49,164 --> 00:44:52,559
or speak at the public hearing.
And I asked him, I said,
807
00:44:52,602 --> 00:44:55,388
"Al, I've been on
this investigation.
I don't understand this."
808
00:44:55,431 --> 00:44:58,086
And he said,
"If you believe
in corporate memory,
809
00:44:58,130 --> 00:45:01,350
you won't ask any questions
or speak at the public hearing."
810
00:45:07,052 --> 00:45:08,444
Interviewer:
What could you possibly say
811
00:45:08,488 --> 00:45:09,750
that would disrupt
the hearing?
812
00:45:09,794 --> 00:45:11,230
Oh, I could
get up and say,
813
00:45:11,273 --> 00:45:13,667
"Well, you know,
we have great concerns
814
00:45:13,711 --> 00:45:15,321
about the accuracy
of your database
815
00:45:15,364 --> 00:45:17,149
and we'd like to have
a thorough,
816
00:45:17,192 --> 00:45:19,412
complete audit
of your database."
817
00:45:19,455 --> 00:45:21,501
We could have said that.
818
00:45:21,544 --> 00:45:24,199
In fact,
our lawyer at TWA
819
00:45:24,243 --> 00:45:27,594
complained to the NTSB
about the tag database
being inadequate
820
00:45:27,637 --> 00:45:30,640
and too unreliable
for any analysis
or conclusions.
821
00:45:30,684 --> 00:45:34,732
And that "far-from-settled
investigatory information
822
00:45:34,775 --> 00:45:37,299
and analysis" would be
presented at the hearing.
823
00:45:37,343 --> 00:45:40,650
Lahr:
In all of the accident
investigations
824
00:45:40,694 --> 00:45:42,391
I have participated in,
825
00:45:42,435 --> 00:45:45,003
eyewitness testimony
was an integral part of it.
826
00:45:45,046 --> 00:45:47,092
Not this time.
827
00:45:47,135 --> 00:45:49,181
Is it true you're not going
to have any of the witnesses,
828
00:45:49,224 --> 00:45:53,838
the 200 and some witnesses
that just were eyewitnesses?
829
00:45:53,881 --> 00:45:56,579
Well, Brian, that is part
of the FBI investigation,
830
00:45:56,623 --> 00:45:58,581
which was a criminal
investigation.
831
00:45:58,625 --> 00:46:00,366
The minute
the news came out
832
00:46:00,409 --> 00:46:04,022
that the eyewitness portion
of that hearing was cancelled,
833
00:46:04,065 --> 00:46:06,285
I started saying,
"Oh, my God, what's going on?
834
00:46:06,328 --> 00:46:09,331
This is really big.
They don't want these
eyewitnesses to talk."
835
00:46:09,375 --> 00:46:11,594
Is there any doubt
in your mind
836
00:46:11,638 --> 00:46:13,945
as to whether or not
this was a missile?
837
00:46:13,988 --> 00:46:16,556
I have no--
838
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:19,037
no reason in my mind
839
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,909
to think that this
was a bomb or a missile.
840
00:46:21,953 --> 00:46:23,911
And I feel that we've done
everything we can
841
00:46:23,955 --> 00:46:25,783
to look at that issue.
842
00:46:25,826 --> 00:46:29,830
Mr. Hank Hughes joined
the NTSB in 1985.
843
00:46:29,874 --> 00:46:32,354
He is a senior investigator
assigned to the office
844
00:46:32,398 --> 00:46:33,442
of aviation safety.
845
00:46:33,486 --> 00:46:35,488
Hughes:
My report, which was
846
00:46:35,531 --> 00:46:37,925
496 pages in length
or thereabouts
847
00:46:37,969 --> 00:46:40,014
with photographic
supplement
848
00:46:40,058 --> 00:46:42,930
was cut and amended
without my knowledge.
849
00:46:42,974 --> 00:46:45,019
When I did
find out about it,
850
00:46:45,063 --> 00:46:47,021
I complained.
Nothing was done.
851
00:46:47,065 --> 00:46:51,765
We were required to provide
a factual report,
852
00:46:51,809 --> 00:46:54,986
but ordered not
to write an analysis.
853
00:46:57,336 --> 00:46:59,773
Interviewer: What?
Could you say that again?
854
00:46:59,817 --> 00:47:02,341
We were directed to write
a factual report,
855
00:47:02,384 --> 00:47:04,386
but not an analysis.
856
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:06,649
All we issued
was factual reports.
857
00:47:06,693 --> 00:47:09,870
Wetli:
I was basically requested
to supply autopsy reports
858
00:47:09,914 --> 00:47:12,655
and photographs and so forth.
But there was no analysis.
859
00:47:12,699 --> 00:47:15,658
In all of the other
investigations that I've done
860
00:47:15,702 --> 00:47:18,705
and every other NTSB
investigator I've worked with,
861
00:47:18,748 --> 00:47:21,926
the group chairman
writes a factual report...
862
00:47:23,753 --> 00:47:26,017
and then based on
that factual report,
863
00:47:26,060 --> 00:47:28,541
writes an analysis
of the significance
864
00:47:28,584 --> 00:47:31,370
of the facts
and circumstances
865
00:47:31,413 --> 00:47:33,024
of that aspect
of the accident.
866
00:47:33,067 --> 00:47:35,940
Shanahan:
To determine really
what happened,
867
00:47:35,983 --> 00:47:37,942
you've got to put everybody's
findings together
868
00:47:37,985 --> 00:47:39,769
and analyze it,
869
00:47:39,813 --> 00:47:41,728
which we've done that
in every investigation
870
00:47:41,771 --> 00:47:43,164
I've been involved in
except this one.
871
00:47:45,427 --> 00:47:47,690
Interviewer:
What would your analysis
have been?
872
00:47:50,171 --> 00:47:52,957
That the primary--
873
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,872
the primary
conclusion was...
874
00:47:56,830 --> 00:48:00,399
the explosive forces
came from outside the airplane,
875
00:48:00,442 --> 00:48:02,401
not the center fuel tank.
876
00:48:02,444 --> 00:48:05,665
Stalcup:
Would that statement
have been in your analysis?
877
00:48:05,708 --> 00:48:08,842
If I got to write one.
878
00:48:08,886 --> 00:48:12,890
Let me tell you, this is
an honest investigation
879
00:48:12,933 --> 00:48:16,545
and it is being conducted
in an honest and open fashion.
880
00:48:17,851 --> 00:48:19,200
Traficant:
I'd just like the panel
881
00:48:19,244 --> 00:48:20,985
to answer my questions
yes or no.
882
00:48:21,028 --> 00:48:23,509
If you can't, I want you
to say you can't answer it.
883
00:48:23,552 --> 00:48:25,119
First question, Mr. Hall.
884
00:48:25,163 --> 00:48:27,339
To this point,
is there any physical evidence,
885
00:48:27,382 --> 00:48:29,602
conclusive forensic
physical evidence,
886
00:48:29,645 --> 00:48:32,344
to prove that it was
a mechanical failure
887
00:48:32,387 --> 00:48:36,174
that caused the explosion
of the center fuel tank?
888
00:48:36,217 --> 00:48:37,915
Yes or no?
889
00:48:39,742 --> 00:48:41,962
No, but-- no, but we're
looking at that.
890
00:48:42,006 --> 00:48:44,443
I want a one
question answer.
891
00:48:44,486 --> 00:48:47,098
- I know this is tough.
At this point--
- No.
892
00:48:47,141 --> 00:48:49,970
Mr. Kallstrom,
893
00:48:50,014 --> 00:48:54,322
were there in fact traces
of PETN and RDX
894
00:48:54,366 --> 00:48:57,325
found in that
plane wreckage?
895
00:48:57,369 --> 00:49:00,546
There were explosive
chemicals found.
896
00:49:06,813 --> 00:49:11,296
Now, the FAA did
a historical record search
897
00:49:11,339 --> 00:49:13,211
on the aircraft involved
898
00:49:13,254 --> 00:49:16,127
and found out that actually
before the crash
899
00:49:16,170 --> 00:49:18,738
it was at St. Louis Airport
overnight.
900
00:49:18,781 --> 00:49:21,262
We were told
that in St. Louis
901
00:49:21,306 --> 00:49:24,962
a bomb-sniffing canine
training session occurred
902
00:49:25,005 --> 00:49:28,008
where they left
some residue
903
00:49:28,052 --> 00:49:31,185
by mistake of the explosives
that the FBI had found.
904
00:49:31,229 --> 00:49:34,362
You know for sure that
the dog was on that plane?
905
00:49:34,406 --> 00:49:36,756
Kallstrom:
We know for sure.
Well, we have the report
906
00:49:36,799 --> 00:49:38,758
that document the training.
907
00:49:38,801 --> 00:49:40,803
Very specifically document
the training.
908
00:49:40,847 --> 00:49:43,719
Both Congressman Traficant
and I
909
00:49:43,763 --> 00:49:46,809
would like sent to our
offices immediately
910
00:49:46,853 --> 00:49:50,335
the documentation that shows
the plane number.
911
00:49:50,378 --> 00:49:53,251
Stalcup:
These are the documents
the FBI supplied to Congress.
912
00:49:54,774 --> 00:49:56,210
The officer who
conducted the exercise
913
00:49:56,254 --> 00:49:58,169
did not know
the plane number,
914
00:49:58,212 --> 00:50:00,998
but testified he was on
an empty plane.
915
00:50:01,041 --> 00:50:03,870
The plane that would later
become flight 800
916
00:50:03,913 --> 00:50:06,786
left the gate fully boarded
with more than 400 passengers
917
00:50:06,829 --> 00:50:08,396
at 12:35.
918
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,617
The officer finished
the exercise at 12:00 noon.
919
00:50:11,660 --> 00:50:14,446
TWA regulations require
the cabin crew
920
00:50:14,489 --> 00:50:16,883
to be on the plane an hour
before departure.
921
00:50:16,926 --> 00:50:18,798
They would have
been on this plane
922
00:50:18,841 --> 00:50:20,843
before the dog training
exercise even began.
923
00:50:20,887 --> 00:50:23,368
So the exercise could not
have happened on the plane
924
00:50:23,411 --> 00:50:26,675
that would become
flight 800.
925
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,548
Was it conclusive
that a dog
926
00:50:29,591 --> 00:50:31,680
- was on this plane
that blew up?
- Kallstrom: Yes.
927
00:50:39,514 --> 00:50:42,300
Stalcup:
Flight 800 is just...
928
00:50:42,343 --> 00:50:44,302
a "fuck you" to the world.
929
00:50:44,345 --> 00:50:47,740
I mean, it's just--
it's just amazing.
930
00:50:49,655 --> 00:50:52,701
I think flight 800
is, you know,
931
00:50:52,745 --> 00:50:54,660
it's a watershed moment
for this country.
932
00:50:54,703 --> 00:50:56,662
It was, "Wow.
933
00:50:56,705 --> 00:50:58,794
Look what we can really
get away with."
934
00:50:58,838 --> 00:51:00,622
Even in the information age.
935
00:51:00,666 --> 00:51:02,537
Narrator:
The CIA's conclusion--
936
00:51:02,581 --> 00:51:05,410
the eyewitnesses
did not see a missile.
937
00:51:05,453 --> 00:51:07,238
Interviewer:
How do you feel
about all this?
938
00:51:07,281 --> 00:51:08,935
Oh, it's terrible.
939
00:51:08,978 --> 00:51:12,286
First time I ever really
distrusted my government.
940
00:51:12,330 --> 00:51:14,245
I...
941
00:51:14,288 --> 00:51:17,509
World War II, I couldn't wait
to serve my country.
942
00:51:17,552 --> 00:51:21,252
And I stayed in
the Navy Reserve.
943
00:51:21,295 --> 00:51:23,471
I believe in this country.
944
00:51:23,515 --> 00:51:27,345
And for that kind
of cover-up
945
00:51:27,388 --> 00:51:30,522
to be tolerated,
it makes me fighting mad.
946
00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:34,395
Wire:
I always believed
in the FBI,
947
00:51:34,439 --> 00:51:36,702
that they do a good job.
948
00:51:36,745 --> 00:51:38,095
Sometimes they have to
bend some corners,
949
00:51:38,138 --> 00:51:40,227
but this is--
950
00:51:40,271 --> 00:51:42,795
there's too much bending
going on with this.
951
00:51:42,838 --> 00:51:45,232
I was very upset
for a long time about this.
952
00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:48,017
Then I just kind of sat back
and resigned to the fact
953
00:51:48,061 --> 00:51:50,237
that I could stand
on my soapbox all day--
954
00:51:50,281 --> 00:51:52,370
nobody's gonna listen
to me, so...
955
00:51:52,413 --> 00:51:54,676
If somebody's interested
in hearing what I have to say,
I'll tell 'em.
956
00:51:57,201 --> 00:52:00,204
Hughes:
I've been an investigator
over 40 years
957
00:52:00,247 --> 00:52:03,381
and it was a one-of-a-kind
experience
958
00:52:03,424 --> 00:52:06,688
that I wouldn't recommend
anybody go through.
959
00:52:06,732 --> 00:52:09,126
As an American,
I'm ashamed.
960
00:52:14,261 --> 00:52:16,307
Stalcup:
The reason for me
standing here today
961
00:52:16,350 --> 00:52:18,570
is to inform the news media
and the public
962
00:52:18,613 --> 00:52:21,703
of an inexplicably flawed
official investigation
963
00:52:21,747 --> 00:52:24,315
into our nation's worst
air disaster.
964
00:52:24,358 --> 00:52:27,100
Stalcup:
After the Baltimore hearing,
965
00:52:27,144 --> 00:52:30,495
I began researching the crash
deeper and deeper.
966
00:52:30,538 --> 00:52:32,453
I called investigators
involved directly,
967
00:52:32,497 --> 00:52:34,499
filed Freedom of Information
Act requests,
968
00:52:34,542 --> 00:52:37,371
actually sued the CIA
and the NTSB,
969
00:52:37,415 --> 00:52:40,853
I sued the FBI,
and I analyzed thousands
of pages of documents,
970
00:52:40,896 --> 00:52:43,508
reports, witness statements,
radar data,
971
00:52:43,551 --> 00:52:46,380
and other documents
pertaining to TWA 800.
972
00:53:13,102 --> 00:53:14,930
Two weeks before
I graduated,
973
00:53:14,974 --> 00:53:17,324
I took out
two student loans
974
00:53:17,368 --> 00:53:19,457
to fund a vacation.
975
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:21,154
Interviewer:
Where'd you go?
976
00:53:21,198 --> 00:53:23,678
Stalcup:
I went back to Cape Cod.
977
00:53:23,722 --> 00:53:25,332
Interviewer:
That's a vacation?
That's home.
978
00:53:25,376 --> 00:53:27,247
I did not want to go--
979
00:53:27,291 --> 00:53:30,250
vacation meaning not going
directly to work anywhere.
980
00:53:30,294 --> 00:53:33,079
I was getting
my doctorate in physics
981
00:53:33,122 --> 00:53:36,343
while at the same time
being a citizen researcher.
982
00:53:36,387 --> 00:53:39,041
I was so burned out.
I needed to just...
983
00:53:39,085 --> 00:53:41,348
not do anything.
984
00:53:41,392 --> 00:53:43,698
Interviewer:
And how long did you
not do anything?
985
00:53:43,742 --> 00:53:44,917
Stalcup:
Well, not doing
anything means
986
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,268
I did flight 800
100% of the time.
987
00:53:51,532 --> 00:53:55,188
Eventually I really got
frustrated by the media's
inaccurate reporting
988
00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:58,147
and by reporters ignoring
the facts of the case.
989
00:53:58,191 --> 00:54:00,976
I decided to get in touch
with Hank Hughes,
990
00:54:01,020 --> 00:54:03,805
Bob Young, Jim Speer,
991
00:54:03,849 --> 00:54:05,590
and other insiders
who had the courage
992
00:54:05,633 --> 00:54:08,941
to come out
and speak publically
about their experience.
993
00:54:10,595 --> 00:54:12,597
And to make
this documentary
994
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,556
to present our evidence
and to show how the government
995
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,558
handled the investigation.
996
00:54:19,212 --> 00:54:21,301
Interviewer:
Why should the audience
997
00:54:21,345 --> 00:54:22,868
believe you?
998
00:54:22,911 --> 00:54:25,218
I mean, who are you
to be doing this?
999
00:54:27,916 --> 00:54:30,092
Why should the audience
believe me?
1000
00:54:30,136 --> 00:54:32,356
Don't believe me.
I don't want the audience
to believe me.
1001
00:54:32,399 --> 00:54:34,358
I want them to look
at the evidence
1002
00:54:34,401 --> 00:54:36,316
and see what it says.
1003
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,362
I think the most telling
piece of evidence
1004
00:54:38,405 --> 00:54:40,538
is the splatter that we found
on top of the center wing tank.
1005
00:54:43,715 --> 00:54:46,283
Stalcup:
There was a splatter pattern.
1006
00:54:46,326 --> 00:54:48,720
A pattern of material
that was deposited
1007
00:54:48,763 --> 00:54:51,244
in the top
of the center wing fuel tank.
1008
00:54:51,288 --> 00:54:53,507
When the center wing
fuel tank broke apart,
1009
00:54:53,551 --> 00:54:56,031
they pieced it back together
again when they brought it
back from the ocean.
1010
00:54:56,075 --> 00:54:58,469
They matched it up
just like a jigsaw puzzle
1011
00:54:58,512 --> 00:55:00,732
and found
this splatter pattern.
1012
00:55:00,775 --> 00:55:03,387
It was continuous across
the fracture line
1013
00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:04,953
of the center wing tank,
1014
00:55:04,997 --> 00:55:06,868
but it was not found
on the fracture's surface.
1015
00:55:06,912 --> 00:55:09,393
And this shows
that it was deposited
1016
00:55:09,436 --> 00:55:11,743
prior to the center
wing tank exploding.
1017
00:55:11,786 --> 00:55:14,572
Birky:
We really never
could identify
1018
00:55:14,615 --> 00:55:17,009
what that splatter
pattern was from.
1019
00:55:17,052 --> 00:55:20,229
Stalcup: Really?
It wasn't from anything that
melted on the aircraft?
1020
00:55:22,710 --> 00:55:25,800
Well, it could have been
something that was melted
on the aircraft
1021
00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:29,151
because it went through
a fiery-- a fireball.
1022
00:55:29,195 --> 00:55:32,633
Stalcup: But this material was deposited before the fireball.
1023
00:55:32,677 --> 00:55:35,680
Well...
1024
00:55:37,725 --> 00:55:41,425
there's some evidence
that that might be the case.
1025
00:55:41,468 --> 00:55:43,296
Stalcup:
Who is responsible
for deciding
1026
00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:44,950
what potential evidence
would be examined?
1027
00:55:44,993 --> 00:55:46,865
I was.
1028
00:55:46,908 --> 00:55:50,303
Were you aware of something
called a splatter pattern
1029
00:55:50,347 --> 00:55:53,393
on top of
the center wing tank?
1030
00:55:53,437 --> 00:55:55,134
No.
1031
00:55:55,177 --> 00:55:58,529
This splatter crossed
the fracture boundaries.
1032
00:56:00,313 --> 00:56:02,228
Okay, but what is
a splatter pattern?
1033
00:56:02,271 --> 00:56:04,796
It's a melted material.
1034
00:56:04,839 --> 00:56:06,624
The NTSB didn't share
this with you?
1035
00:56:06,667 --> 00:56:08,713
I've never-- no.
1036
00:56:08,756 --> 00:56:10,584
I've never seen that.
Never heard of that.
1037
00:56:10,628 --> 00:56:13,587
One person that should have
known about this that didn't
was me.
1038
00:56:13,631 --> 00:56:15,546
If I had heard at the time,
1039
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:18,113
I would try and get some
of the samples
1040
00:56:18,157 --> 00:56:19,680
of the residue
and have it analyzed.
1041
00:56:21,421 --> 00:56:23,771
Stalcup:
You sent a sample
1042
00:56:23,815 --> 00:56:26,339
from the top surface
of the tank of that
splatter pattern
1043
00:56:26,383 --> 00:56:28,646
down to NASA for testing.
1044
00:56:28,689 --> 00:56:32,432
Why would he send it
down to NASA?
1045
00:56:32,476 --> 00:56:34,695
There was an instrument
right there.
1046
00:56:34,739 --> 00:56:37,176
He already had the capability
on the scene.
1047
00:56:37,219 --> 00:56:39,918
There was no reason,
if you were looking for
military explosives,
1048
00:56:39,961 --> 00:56:42,311
to send it down to NASA.
1049
00:56:42,355 --> 00:56:44,357
Stalcup:
One of the persons
that did the analysis
1050
00:56:44,401 --> 00:56:46,577
of the residue was a guy
named Charlie Bassett
down at NASA.
1051
00:56:46,620 --> 00:56:48,753
And that was another
three- or four-hour,
1052
00:56:48,796 --> 00:56:51,190
maybe six-hour drive
from where I was at.
1053
00:56:51,233 --> 00:56:53,366
So I drove down there to talk
to him about that.
1054
00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:56,413
And he ended up saying,
"Did you hear about my
nitrates report?"
1055
00:56:56,456 --> 00:56:59,241
And I said, "What do you mean?
You found nitrates
in the wreckage?"
1056
00:56:59,285 --> 00:57:00,504
He said, "Sure, I did."
1057
00:57:00,547 --> 00:57:02,854
So he gave me a copy
of the report.
1058
00:57:02,897 --> 00:57:05,813
NASA sent back a report
giving them information
1059
00:57:05,857 --> 00:57:07,293
that there was nitrates
in that splatter.
1060
00:57:07,336 --> 00:57:09,513
That's very interesting.
1061
00:57:09,556 --> 00:57:12,080
- You didn't know that?
- No.
1062
00:57:12,124 --> 00:57:15,388
Stalcup:
And the report that came back
from Charlie Bassett--
1063
00:57:15,432 --> 00:57:18,652
in the splatter pattern,
he detected nitrates.
1064
00:57:23,831 --> 00:57:26,921
I can't remember that
at this point.
1065
00:57:26,965 --> 00:57:29,533
You don't remember
that nitrates were detected?
1066
00:57:29,576 --> 00:57:31,883
No, I don't remember that.
1067
00:57:31,926 --> 00:57:33,667
I'll have to go back
and look at the reports
1068
00:57:33,711 --> 00:57:35,539
if I have them anymore.
I don't know.
1069
00:57:35,582 --> 00:57:37,584
Stalcup:
Actually, I had
the report with me
1070
00:57:37,628 --> 00:57:39,978
and I gave it to Dr. Birky
to review.
1071
00:57:41,893 --> 00:57:44,591
So, these tests
1072
00:57:44,635 --> 00:57:47,159
did not identify uniquely
1073
00:57:47,202 --> 00:57:50,205
whether it was--
what the source was.
1074
00:57:50,249 --> 00:57:55,123
It only tells you
that there's nitrates there.
1075
00:57:55,167 --> 00:57:57,386
Stalcup:
They have this evidence
that something melted
1076
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:59,911
on the center wing fuel tank
before it broke to pieces.
1077
00:57:59,954 --> 00:58:03,523
It basically by itself
proves that their theory
is wrong.
1078
00:58:03,567 --> 00:58:06,091
But they stopped requesting
further examination
of that piece.
1079
00:58:06,134 --> 00:58:08,920
Nitrates could come from
a number of different sources.
1080
00:58:08,963 --> 00:58:11,357
I mean, nitrates by themselves
don't mean anything.
1081
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,142
You see,
I didn't consider
1082
00:58:14,186 --> 00:58:18,190
the nitrates
sufficient to identify
1083
00:58:18,233 --> 00:58:19,670
an explosive device.
1084
00:58:19,713 --> 00:58:22,150
You needed further
testing to do that?
1085
00:58:22,194 --> 00:58:25,023
- Pardon?
- It would have required
further testing?
1086
00:58:25,066 --> 00:58:28,200
It would have required
significant further testing.
1087
00:58:28,243 --> 00:58:30,463
That's correct.
1088
00:58:30,507 --> 00:58:33,031
And that testing
was never done?
1089
00:58:37,122 --> 00:58:39,385
Well, I don't--
no, it was never done.
1090
00:58:39,428 --> 00:58:43,476
A nitrate doesn't--
in my estimation,
1091
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,697
my judgment, doesn't prove
an explosive device.
1092
00:58:46,740 --> 00:58:49,961
I mean, you can get nitrates
from many things.
1093
00:58:50,004 --> 00:58:53,660
But you just said you didn't
order the follow-up testing.
1094
00:58:53,704 --> 00:58:56,402
- No, I didn't.
- Why?
1095
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,494
I don't have
a recollection of why
1096
00:59:01,538 --> 00:59:03,801
other than to say that...
1097
00:59:03,844 --> 00:59:05,106
we didn't do it.
1098
00:59:07,108 --> 00:59:10,982
People watching might think
that that's suspicious.
1099
00:59:11,025 --> 00:59:15,421
Well, I'm sure
they could say that.
1100
00:59:15,464 --> 00:59:17,771
They would have felt that.
1101
00:59:17,815 --> 00:59:20,600
My argument is
1102
00:59:20,644 --> 00:59:23,734
the follow-up testing
that needed to be done wasn't.
1103
00:59:25,823 --> 00:59:29,740
I can only answer by saying
1104
00:59:29,783 --> 00:59:32,525
that you're right,
it was not done.
1105
00:59:32,569 --> 00:59:34,614
Um...
1106
00:59:34,658 --> 00:59:37,486
should more analytical work
been done?
1107
00:59:37,530 --> 00:59:40,098
Well, that's--
1108
00:59:40,141 --> 00:59:42,100
that would be appropriate.
1109
00:59:43,667 --> 00:59:45,451
Hall:
We do everything we can.
1110
00:59:45,494 --> 00:59:49,411
It's our responsibility
to do this in a professional,
1111
00:59:49,455 --> 00:59:53,241
thorough,
and methodical way.
1112
00:59:55,113 --> 00:59:56,810
Stalcup:
In their own animation,
1113
00:59:56,854 --> 00:59:59,378
the NTSB amended
the CIA's version
1114
00:59:59,421 --> 01:00:01,162
by showing the plane
turning to the left
1115
01:00:01,206 --> 01:00:03,382
before the climb.
1116
01:00:03,425 --> 01:00:05,732
But the NTSB's theory
for what caused the crash
1117
01:00:05,776 --> 01:00:07,691
has no explanation
for that left turn.
1118
01:00:10,868 --> 01:00:12,870
Stalcup:
What about the left wing?
1119
01:00:12,913 --> 01:00:14,436
Do you remember any damage
to the left wing
1120
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,221
that was interesting?
1121
01:00:16,264 --> 01:00:19,093
The left wing? No.
That was different
than the right wing?
1122
01:00:19,137 --> 01:00:21,792
Stalcup:
The upper surface
of the left wing
1123
01:00:21,835 --> 01:00:24,446
was shattered, but the right
wing's upper surface wasn't.
1124
01:00:24,490 --> 01:00:25,839
It looks like--
I mean, you've got
1125
01:00:25,883 --> 01:00:28,712
decimation of the upper
skin of the left wing,
1126
01:00:28,755 --> 01:00:30,583
but essentially nothing
on the right.
1127
01:00:32,629 --> 01:00:34,631
Stalcup:
The wings were carrying
all of the plane's fuel
1128
01:00:34,674 --> 01:00:36,197
for its trip to Paris.
1129
01:00:36,241 --> 01:00:38,243
The NTSB says that
when the left wing
1130
01:00:38,286 --> 01:00:40,680
impacted the ocean,
the fuel in side the wing
1131
01:00:40,724 --> 01:00:42,987
was pressurized,
causing it to burst.
1132
01:00:48,862 --> 01:00:51,343
Stalcup:
But in their own animations,
1133
01:00:51,386 --> 01:00:54,694
the government shows the left
wing breaking off on the air.
1134
01:00:54,738 --> 01:00:57,436
Narrator:
Its left wing separated
from the fuselage,
1135
01:00:57,479 --> 01:01:00,091
releasing unburned fuel.
1136
01:01:00,134 --> 01:01:02,441
Stalcup:
With the wing broken off
and no longer sealed,
1137
01:01:02,484 --> 01:01:04,661
with much
of the fuel gone
1138
01:01:04,704 --> 01:01:06,880
and no longer
evenly distributed
throughout the wing,
1139
01:01:06,924 --> 01:01:09,491
on impact with the ocean,
you're not gonna get
1140
01:01:09,535 --> 01:01:11,102
the hydraulic forces
you need
1141
01:01:11,145 --> 01:01:14,279
to shatter the wing
the way it did.
1142
01:01:14,322 --> 01:01:17,021
But at level flight
with the wings full of fuel,
1143
01:01:17,064 --> 01:01:19,980
if you introduced high energy
into that liquid,
1144
01:01:20,024 --> 01:01:21,808
you can get the hydraulic
forces you need
1145
01:01:21,852 --> 01:01:24,071
to shatter that wing.
1146
01:01:24,115 --> 01:01:26,987
There would be a reduction
of lift on that left wing.
1147
01:01:27,031 --> 01:01:30,121
The right wing, undamaged,
would have its full lift.
1148
01:01:30,164 --> 01:01:33,733
And that is what would
explain the left turn.
1149
01:01:33,777 --> 01:01:35,692
Witness:
It seemed like
the aircraft turned.
1150
01:01:35,735 --> 01:01:37,781
I could see the flash
of the wing
1151
01:01:37,824 --> 01:01:40,740
'cause the sun was behind me
setting out here.
1152
01:01:40,784 --> 01:01:43,438
Stalcup:
There were eyewitnesses
who saw the plane banking.
1153
01:01:43,482 --> 01:01:45,397
One eyewitness was in a boat
and they thought it was
gonna hit them.
1154
01:01:47,138 --> 01:01:50,358
Now, if the left wing
did shatter first,
1155
01:01:50,402 --> 01:01:52,883
you would expect to find
left wing debris
1156
01:01:52,926 --> 01:01:55,276
in the red zone,
1157
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,931
the earliest debris field
closest to JFK Airport.
1158
01:01:59,803 --> 01:02:01,500
There was left wing debris
1159
01:02:01,543 --> 01:02:03,632
in the earliest debris field
closest to JFK Airport.
1160
01:02:09,769 --> 01:02:12,032
Parallel to the horizon
1161
01:02:12,076 --> 01:02:15,079
was a cigar-shaped cloud.
A long cigar-shaped cloud.
1162
01:02:15,122 --> 01:02:18,343
Stalcup:
If powerful energy were
introduced to the left wing
1163
01:02:18,386 --> 01:02:20,171
before it broke off,
1164
01:02:20,214 --> 01:02:22,869
fuel would spray out
and immediately vaporize,
1165
01:02:22,913 --> 01:02:25,785
creating a cloud of white vapor behind the plane.
1166
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:27,526
Stalcup:
What color was
the cigar-shaped cloud?
1167
01:02:27,569 --> 01:02:29,658
- White.
- It was this white poof.
1168
01:02:29,702 --> 01:02:31,922
Like a crystally
white poof.
1169
01:02:31,965 --> 01:02:33,314
A huge white ball.
1170
01:02:33,358 --> 01:02:34,968
A white phosphorus
explosion.
1171
01:02:38,755 --> 01:02:40,582
Stalcup:
I wanted to see for myself
1172
01:02:40,626 --> 01:02:42,323
if high explosives
could have caused
1173
01:02:42,367 --> 01:02:43,803
that left wing
shatter pattern.
1174
01:02:45,892 --> 01:02:48,590
So I sealed
a piece of 747 wing
1175
01:02:48,634 --> 01:02:51,332
over a container
75% filled with liquid
1176
01:02:51,376 --> 01:02:53,595
just like the left wing was.
1177
01:02:53,639 --> 01:02:56,381
Then I put a quarter pound
of TNT into the container
1178
01:02:56,424 --> 01:02:59,210
and blew it up.
1179
01:02:59,253 --> 01:03:01,342
Misted liquid blew out
of the container
1180
01:03:01,386 --> 01:03:05,129
just like the misted fuel
blew out of the left wing.
1181
01:03:05,172 --> 01:03:07,305
Let's go look
for some pieces.
1182
01:03:07,348 --> 01:03:09,611
Man:
I know I saw two more
go over the trees.
1183
01:03:09,655 --> 01:03:11,788
- In there someplace.
- Really? That far?
1184
01:03:11,831 --> 01:03:13,615
- Yeah.
- It's right here.
1185
01:03:13,659 --> 01:03:15,400
Rivets sheared off.
1186
01:03:15,443 --> 01:03:16,923
Almost every rivet
on the upper surface
1187
01:03:16,967 --> 01:03:19,621
of the left wing
was sheared away.
1188
01:03:19,665 --> 01:03:23,408
We have the same fractures
that we have pictures of
from the wreckage.
1189
01:03:23,451 --> 01:03:25,453
This fracture right here
is just like
1190
01:03:25,497 --> 01:03:26,628
the fracture that we see
on the wreckage.
1191
01:03:26,672 --> 01:03:28,500
This fracture right here
1192
01:03:28,543 --> 01:03:29,849
is almost identical
to fractures
1193
01:03:29,893 --> 01:03:31,416
that are found on
the accident aircraft.
1194
01:03:31,459 --> 01:03:33,853
We have pictures of the wreckage
that look just like this.
1195
01:03:33,897 --> 01:03:36,856
Yeah, it appears
we replicated the damage
from the accident aircraft.
1196
01:03:40,381 --> 01:03:42,601
Stalcup:
And one more thing about
that left turn
1197
01:03:42,644 --> 01:03:45,604
caused by the shattered
left wing--
1198
01:03:45,647 --> 01:03:49,695
you can clearly
see it on radar.
1199
01:03:49,738 --> 01:03:52,916
Thanks to Captain Ray Lahr,
who sued the CIA,
1200
01:03:52,959 --> 01:03:56,136
we now have the NTSB's
own simulation software.
1201
01:03:56,180 --> 01:03:59,226
You see these blue triangles
and green squares?
1202
01:03:59,270 --> 01:04:02,708
That's where the plane
was according to two
separate radar sites.
1203
01:04:02,751 --> 01:04:04,536
And as you can see here,
the NTSB simulations
1204
01:04:04,579 --> 01:04:06,538
aren't going through
those triangles and squares.
1205
01:04:06,581 --> 01:04:08,322
So they're wrong.
1206
01:04:08,366 --> 01:04:10,890
If it doesn't fit
the radar data, it's not
what happened.
1207
01:04:10,934 --> 01:04:12,500
This is showing the climb.
1208
01:04:12,544 --> 01:04:15,242
And this is exactly when
they're not matching radar data.
1209
01:04:15,286 --> 01:04:17,897
So this climb is
itself invalid.
1210
01:04:17,941 --> 01:04:20,030
What really happened
to the aircraft is this.
1211
01:04:22,684 --> 01:04:24,643
When you fit it
to the radar data,
1212
01:04:24,686 --> 01:04:26,732
there is no climb.
1213
01:04:30,344 --> 01:04:31,737
[ radio chatter ]
1214
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:53,063
Hughes:
Typically, you'll see
a damage pattern
1215
01:04:53,106 --> 01:04:55,152
which will correlate
with the injuries.
1216
01:04:55,195 --> 01:04:57,763
The center fuel tank
blowing up
1217
01:04:57,806 --> 01:05:00,331
or an explosive device
inside of the airplane
1218
01:05:00,374 --> 01:05:02,333
would have caused
a burn pattern
1219
01:05:02,376 --> 01:05:04,204
that would have emanated
from one area
1220
01:05:04,248 --> 01:05:06,598
and progressed in a direction
away from where
1221
01:05:06,641 --> 01:05:08,382
the explosion originated.
1222
01:05:08,426 --> 01:05:11,255
In the instance
of TWA flight 800,
1223
01:05:11,298 --> 01:05:13,779
there's no such correlation.
1224
01:05:13,822 --> 01:05:15,955
From front to back
and right to left,
1225
01:05:15,999 --> 01:05:19,611
the injury patterns were
completely atypical.
1226
01:05:19,654 --> 01:05:22,396
One person might have been
severely burned,
1227
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,095
the person sitting next
to them didn't have a mark
on their body,
1228
01:05:25,138 --> 01:05:27,532
and the person sitting
next to them may have
1229
01:05:27,575 --> 01:05:29,708
been completely destroyed.
1230
01:05:29,751 --> 01:05:32,319
How do you account
for absolutely no patterns?
1231
01:05:32,363 --> 01:05:36,236
We saw nothing where,
for example,
1232
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,412
those in the vicinity
of the center fuel tank
1233
01:05:38,456 --> 01:05:42,242
would have more damage
than those seated elsewhere
on the airplane.
1234
01:05:42,286 --> 01:05:45,506
Shanahan:
Many of the passengers
were ejected from their seats
1235
01:05:45,550 --> 01:05:46,986
at some point
during the crash.
1236
01:05:47,030 --> 01:05:50,076
You could look at seats
that had fire damage
1237
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,253
and see if the individuals
who were supposedly
sitting there
1238
01:05:53,297 --> 01:05:55,125
also had fire damage.
1239
01:05:55,168 --> 01:05:58,563
And in many cases
we found out that they did not.
1240
01:05:58,606 --> 01:06:01,348
That tells me
that the passenger
1241
01:06:01,392 --> 01:06:04,612
had left that seat
prior to the time that the fire
1242
01:06:04,656 --> 01:06:06,440
had spread into the cabin.
1243
01:06:06,484 --> 01:06:10,096
To give you an idea
of the crash, this is
sometime in mid-August.
1244
01:06:10,140 --> 01:06:13,491
I walked down to
the water and I see a piece
of the plane laying there
1245
01:06:13,534 --> 01:06:16,450
and I said, "What's going on?
Plane parts are supposed to go
to Calverton, not here."
1246
01:06:16,494 --> 01:06:19,236
And when you look a little
bit closer, you can see
1247
01:06:19,279 --> 01:06:23,022
a bone which has been shot
like an arrow right through
the fuselage of that plane.
1248
01:06:23,066 --> 01:06:25,764
This, I think, is something
that wasn't appreciated
by a lot of people,
1249
01:06:25,807 --> 01:06:27,679
the tremendous forces
involved here.
1250
01:06:27,722 --> 01:06:30,899
Hughes:
The damage to the seats
1251
01:06:30,943 --> 01:06:33,337
and the injuries to
the passengers was random,
1252
01:06:33,380 --> 01:06:36,166
which in my mind indicates
1253
01:06:36,209 --> 01:06:38,559
a high ordnance detonation,
1254
01:06:38,603 --> 01:06:40,953
not a low-speed explosion
1255
01:06:40,997 --> 01:06:42,694
like a center fuel tank
blowing up.
1256
01:06:42,737 --> 01:06:45,479
- A high-speed explosion.
- Stalcup: Where?
1257
01:06:45,523 --> 01:06:48,091
Well, given the fact
that we found no point
1258
01:06:48,134 --> 01:06:51,529
from which it emanated,
I think it was external
to the aircraft.
1259
01:06:57,056 --> 01:06:59,493
Young:
April of 2000,
1260
01:06:59,537 --> 01:07:02,322
the NTSB decided
that they would go down
1261
01:07:02,366 --> 01:07:03,976
to Eglin Air Force Base
1262
01:07:04,020 --> 01:07:07,675
and shoot Stingers,
flares, and fireworks.
1263
01:07:07,719 --> 01:07:09,416
And they would put
witnesses on the ground
1264
01:07:09,460 --> 01:07:11,418
in different locations
1265
01:07:11,462 --> 01:07:13,464
at various distances
from the launch point.
1266
01:07:13,507 --> 01:07:15,683
And basically,
the theory was
1267
01:07:15,727 --> 01:07:18,121
that when they do this,
1268
01:07:18,164 --> 01:07:20,514
the witnesses
would be so at odds
1269
01:07:20,558 --> 01:07:24,170
at what
the eyewitnesses claimed,
1270
01:07:24,214 --> 01:07:26,346
it would prove conclusively
1271
01:07:26,390 --> 01:07:29,262
that the eyewitnesses
didn't know what they
were talking about
1272
01:07:29,306 --> 01:07:31,699
and therefore it could
be brought up
1273
01:07:31,743 --> 01:07:33,701
to refute the eyewitnesses
at the final hearing.
1274
01:07:33,745 --> 01:07:34,746
Guess what?
1275
01:07:46,323 --> 01:07:48,673
They had a missile
visibility test
1276
01:07:48,716 --> 01:07:50,849
and it was on
the nightly news
1277
01:07:50,892 --> 01:07:52,590
and I happened to see it
that night.
1278
01:07:52,633 --> 01:07:55,723
The missile launch
was very similar
1279
01:07:55,767 --> 01:07:57,508
to what I saw out here.
1280
01:07:57,551 --> 01:07:59,771
It matched
pretty identical to it.
1281
01:08:01,816 --> 01:08:03,644
Stalcup:
Here's an example
of how the US media
1282
01:08:03,688 --> 01:08:05,559
covered the missile
visibility tests.
1283
01:08:05,603 --> 01:08:07,735
Government investigators
have confirmed tonight
1284
01:08:07,779 --> 01:08:09,563
that the Army
recently conducted
1285
01:08:09,607 --> 01:08:11,130
some dramatic tests
1286
01:08:11,174 --> 01:08:13,611
to disprove once and for all
1287
01:08:13,654 --> 01:08:15,569
whether or not a missile
attack was responsible
1288
01:08:15,613 --> 01:08:18,833
for the explosion
of TWA flight 800.
1289
01:08:18,877 --> 01:08:20,966
Stalcup:
Actually, according to
the official report,
1290
01:08:21,009 --> 01:08:23,186
the test was done
to determine how far away
1291
01:08:23,229 --> 01:08:25,318
a witness could be
and still see a missile.
1292
01:08:25,362 --> 01:08:26,841
Here's NBC's Robert Hager.
1293
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,237
Stalcup:
The report starts off
with a visual cue
1294
01:08:31,281 --> 01:08:34,545
to remind viewers
to connect missiles
with conspiracy theories.
1295
01:08:34,588 --> 01:08:37,809
Hager:
Three times Army contractors
fire Stinger missiles
1296
01:08:37,852 --> 01:08:42,205
similar to this as NTSB
investigators watch below.
1297
01:08:42,248 --> 01:08:44,207
Investigators did not
stage the test
1298
01:08:44,250 --> 01:08:47,558
because they seriously believe
a missile caused the TWA crash.
1299
01:08:47,601 --> 01:08:49,473
In fact, they're certain
it was not a missile.
1300
01:08:49,516 --> 01:08:51,953
Stalcup:
Now pay close attention
to what he says next.
1301
01:08:51,997 --> 01:08:54,217
But they do feel it's
important for the record
1302
01:08:54,260 --> 01:08:56,741
to match what they were able
to see in the test
1303
01:08:56,784 --> 01:09:00,266
with what some eyewitnesses
believe they saw
off Long Island.
1304
01:09:00,310 --> 01:09:03,182
Stalcup: If they're
so certain that a missile
didn't cause the crash,
1305
01:09:03,226 --> 01:09:05,532
why would they have to match
what the flight 800 witnesses
1306
01:09:05,576 --> 01:09:07,404
believe they saw
with the missiles
1307
01:09:07,447 --> 01:09:10,320
the eyewitnesses actually saw
during the test in Florida?
1308
01:09:10,363 --> 01:09:13,497
Hager:
Eyewitnesses like
Vietnam vet Fred Meyer
1309
01:09:13,540 --> 01:09:15,151
who was in a helicopter
that night.
1310
01:09:15,194 --> 01:09:17,196
I followed
the streak of light
1311
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,416
red/orange in color,
1312
01:09:19,459 --> 01:09:22,201
moving from my left center
to my further left.
1313
01:09:22,245 --> 01:09:25,987
Hager:
Meyer says then he saw
explosions similar to this.
1314
01:09:26,031 --> 01:09:28,860
Stalcup:
Actually, this, the plane
descending in a fireball,
1315
01:09:28,903 --> 01:09:31,863
is not what he saw next.
What he saw next was...
1316
01:09:31,906 --> 01:09:33,778
I saw an explosion.
1317
01:09:33,821 --> 01:09:36,737
And the explosion
was on the trajectory
1318
01:09:36,781 --> 01:09:38,609
of the streak of light
I had been following.
1319
01:09:38,652 --> 01:09:40,524
Stalcup:
The descending fireball
1320
01:09:40,567 --> 01:09:42,308
was the last thing
Major Meyer saw.
1321
01:09:42,352 --> 01:09:45,050
Hager:
Why are investigators
sure it wasn't a missile?
1322
01:09:45,093 --> 01:09:46,965
It's this reconstruction.
1323
01:09:47,008 --> 01:09:49,968
No residue of any
missile explosives. None.
1324
01:09:50,011 --> 01:09:51,535
Stalcup:
This is false.
1325
01:09:51,578 --> 01:09:53,058
Government investigators
did report
1326
01:09:53,101 --> 01:09:55,321
finding explosive residues
on the plane.
1327
01:09:55,365 --> 01:09:58,106
Hager:
Instead, a pattern
of twisted metal
1328
01:09:58,150 --> 01:10:00,587
that shows the explosion
that did bring the plane down
1329
01:10:00,631 --> 01:10:03,547
originated here
in the center fuel tank.
1330
01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:05,375
Stalcup:
And this is also false.
1331
01:10:05,418 --> 01:10:07,899
There is no evidence
confirming that the explosion
1332
01:10:07,942 --> 01:10:10,945
that brought down
the plane originated
in the center fuel tank.
1333
01:10:10,989 --> 01:10:13,818
Hager:
And no continuous holes
in a straight line
1334
01:10:13,861 --> 01:10:16,168
through the wreckage,
which would have had
to have been left
1335
01:10:16,212 --> 01:10:18,214
if a missile penetrated.
1336
01:10:18,257 --> 01:10:21,260
Stalcup:
Not if it were
a proximity fuse missile
1337
01:10:21,304 --> 01:10:24,829
that does not penetrate,
but explodes nearby.
1338
01:10:24,872 --> 01:10:27,614
This and many other
media reports
1339
01:10:27,658 --> 01:10:31,357
persistently focused
on missiles that could
penetrate the plane.
1340
01:10:31,401 --> 01:10:34,055
Hager:
So investigators believe
what eyewitnesses saw
1341
01:10:34,099 --> 01:10:36,536
was the trail of fire
left in the sky
1342
01:10:36,580 --> 01:10:38,625
by the falling
plane itself.
1343
01:10:38,669 --> 01:10:40,975
Stalcup:
Well before seeing this
descending fireball,
1344
01:10:41,019 --> 01:10:43,587
many witnesses reported
seeing an object rise up
1345
01:10:43,630 --> 01:10:45,023
off the surface.
1346
01:10:45,066 --> 01:10:46,546
Hager:
What investigators
really believe
1347
01:10:46,590 --> 01:10:48,331
is that the fuel tank
exploded
1348
01:10:48,374 --> 01:10:49,636
because of
an electrical short
1349
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,421
or some other
mechanical problem.
1350
01:10:51,464 --> 01:10:52,944
Stalcup:
What investigators?
1351
01:10:52,987 --> 01:10:55,033
No ignition source
was ever confirmed.
1352
01:10:55,076 --> 01:10:57,035
And what other
mechanical problems?
1353
01:10:57,078 --> 01:10:59,298
The reporter provides
no details.
1354
01:10:59,342 --> 01:11:01,866
Hager:
And nothing they observed
in the new missile tests
1355
01:11:01,909 --> 01:11:03,911
has changed their minds.
1356
01:11:03,955 --> 01:11:06,827
Stalcup:
But he never reports
the results of the tests.
1357
01:11:06,871 --> 01:11:09,134
The results that showed
that all observers
1358
01:11:09,177 --> 01:11:11,615
easily saw the missile.
1359
01:11:11,658 --> 01:11:13,617
Hager:
Robert Hager, "NBC News,"
Washington.
1360
01:11:21,494 --> 01:11:23,496
Frank Hilldrup:
What about detonation
at some distance?
1361
01:11:23,540 --> 01:11:25,672
Perhaps a self-destruct
scenario?
1362
01:11:25,716 --> 01:11:29,546
It's possible that several
types of missiles
1363
01:11:29,589 --> 01:11:33,376
could have been in
the vicinity of TWA flight 800
1364
01:11:33,419 --> 01:11:37,510
at the time of the mishap.
1365
01:11:37,554 --> 01:11:41,514
But the possibility
that that occurred
1366
01:11:41,558 --> 01:11:45,736
is hard to imagine.
1367
01:11:52,177 --> 01:11:54,005
Stalcup:
Did you ever look
at my analysis
1368
01:11:54,048 --> 01:11:55,528
of the radar information
1369
01:11:55,572 --> 01:11:57,095
that actually showed
some evidence
1370
01:11:57,138 --> 01:11:58,923
of a high-energy explosion
on radar?
1371
01:11:58,966 --> 01:12:00,968
Yes.
1372
01:12:01,012 --> 01:12:03,536
Stalcup:
Since it happened
so close to shore
1373
01:12:03,580 --> 01:12:06,060
and miles off
of Long Island
1374
01:12:06,104 --> 01:12:07,845
in a very busy
air corridor,
1375
01:12:07,888 --> 01:12:09,368
there are several
FAA radar sites
1376
01:12:09,412 --> 01:12:11,152
that recorded
the crash.
1377
01:12:11,196 --> 01:12:16,114
Man:
The field to the left is
consistent with the explosion.
1378
01:12:16,157 --> 01:12:18,072
Stalcup:
At the Baltimore hearing,
1379
01:12:18,116 --> 01:12:20,988
they showed this
radar image which shows
20 minutes of debris
1380
01:12:21,032 --> 01:12:24,122
drifting with the wind
after the plane explodes.
1381
01:12:24,165 --> 01:12:27,212
But what they didn't talk
about in their presentation
1382
01:12:27,255 --> 01:12:29,214
is this--
1383
01:12:29,257 --> 01:12:33,044
the first few seconds
after the plane lost
electrical power.
1384
01:12:39,964 --> 01:12:42,488
The radar shows debris
flying away from the plane
1385
01:12:42,532 --> 01:12:46,231
at a speed of at least
Mach 4,
1386
01:12:46,274 --> 01:12:49,495
which is four times
the speed of sound.
1387
01:12:49,539 --> 01:12:52,324
No detonation velocity
lower than Mach 4 fit
the data very well.
1388
01:12:52,368 --> 01:12:54,674
So, yeah.
1389
01:12:54,718 --> 01:12:57,416
That explosion of
the center wing fuel tank
1390
01:12:57,460 --> 01:12:59,897
they determined
was a low-velocity explosion,
1391
01:12:59,940 --> 01:13:03,030
meaning that it went slower
than the speed of sound.
1392
01:13:03,074 --> 01:13:06,207
So any wreckage
that is shown going faster
than the speed of sound
1393
01:13:06,251 --> 01:13:08,384
could not have come
from that explosion.
1394
01:13:08,427 --> 01:13:10,560
And so any high-speed debris
that came out,
1395
01:13:10,603 --> 01:13:12,605
which we calculated
at Mach 4,
1396
01:13:12,649 --> 01:13:15,826
definitely was not from
the center wing tank explosion.
1397
01:13:15,869 --> 01:13:18,655
It couldn't have been.
And that's what disproves
this case.
1398
01:13:18,698 --> 01:13:20,047
I mean, that is
the smoking gun.
1399
01:13:23,486 --> 01:13:26,010
Missiles are rounded--
have rounded surfaces
1400
01:13:26,053 --> 01:13:27,403
and, like stealth fighters,
1401
01:13:27,446 --> 01:13:29,230
do not give
a very good signature.
1402
01:13:29,274 --> 01:13:31,711
However,
once a missile explodes,
1403
01:13:31,755 --> 01:13:33,931
it's a bright light.
1404
01:13:33,974 --> 01:13:37,456
You throw up confetti at night
and you shine a flashlight,
you're gonna see it.
1405
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:40,503
And that's what this was,
a bunch of confetti moving
at Mach 4.
1406
01:13:46,465 --> 01:13:49,381
Shanahan: You're looking
at 3,000 miles an hour as
the initial velocity.
1407
01:13:49,425 --> 01:13:51,992
- Somewhere in that range?
- Probably greater than that.
1408
01:13:52,036 --> 01:13:54,125
- But, yeah.
At least, yeah.
- Okay.
1409
01:13:54,168 --> 01:13:56,432
Huh.
1410
01:13:56,475 --> 01:13:58,390
That's pretty high explosive.
1411
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:04,962
It certainly smells
like a missile
1412
01:14:05,005 --> 01:14:07,051
when you look
at those findings.
1413
01:14:07,094 --> 01:14:09,880
When you see this kind
of information,
1414
01:14:09,923 --> 01:14:12,578
you have to say,
"It's a missile
1415
01:14:12,622 --> 01:14:15,668
and let's prove
that it wasn't."
1416
01:14:15,712 --> 01:14:18,932
And I don't see any evidence
that anybody attempted
1417
01:14:18,976 --> 01:14:20,978
to rule out that
this was a missile.
1418
01:14:21,021 --> 01:14:23,981
Not in any honest
scientific way at least.
1419
01:14:37,211 --> 01:14:38,517
[ radio chatter ]
1420
01:14:41,825 --> 01:14:44,218
Stalcup:
After climbing out
of JFK Airport,
1421
01:14:44,262 --> 01:14:47,091
flight 800 leveled off
at 13,000 feet.
1422
01:14:47,134 --> 01:14:50,398
Moments later,
a fast-moving object
1423
01:14:50,442 --> 01:14:53,401
was seen racing horizontally
out to sea
1424
01:14:53,445 --> 01:14:55,403
from Long Island's
south shore
1425
01:14:55,447 --> 01:14:57,231
heading east-southeast.
1426
01:14:57,275 --> 01:14:59,277
One of the dozens
of eyewitnesses
1427
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:01,975
who saw object one
was Lisa Perry.
1428
01:15:02,019 --> 01:15:05,544
And I see something
that's going across the sky.
1429
01:15:05,588 --> 01:15:09,113
It's going very quickly.
It looked kind of like
that Superman bullet.
1430
01:15:09,156 --> 01:15:11,811
Stalcup:
A few miles offshore,
it turned upward
1431
01:15:11,855 --> 01:15:14,161
and began climbing
while heading south.
1432
01:15:14,205 --> 01:15:18,296
- And it wavered
and zigzagged as it flew.
- Then it turned.
1433
01:15:18,339 --> 01:15:20,559
Stalcup:
At this time,
a second object
1434
01:15:20,603 --> 01:15:23,910
rose off the ocean miles away
and further to the east.
1435
01:15:23,954 --> 01:15:27,087
Both objects began converging
on flight 800.
1436
01:15:27,131 --> 01:15:29,916
Object two approached
the jetliner head on.
1437
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:33,659
And then it started climbing,
passing my altitude.
1438
01:15:33,703 --> 01:15:37,445
Pilot Vassilis Bakounis,
flying at 2,000 feet,
1439
01:15:37,489 --> 01:15:41,362
saw the object rising
from below his altitude.
1440
01:15:41,406 --> 01:15:43,669
Meanwhile, object one
headed behind
1441
01:15:43,713 --> 01:15:45,932
and to the right
of flight 800.
1442
01:15:45,976 --> 01:15:49,414
It suddenly turned left
toward the jetliner
1443
01:15:49,457 --> 01:15:53,287
and exploded near
flight 800's left wing.
1444
01:15:53,331 --> 01:15:56,029
The detonation of object one
near the airplane
1445
01:15:56,073 --> 01:15:58,728
caused the upper surface
of the left wing to shatter.
1446
01:15:58,771 --> 01:16:01,078
As the plane
banked to the left,
1447
01:16:01,121 --> 01:16:04,472
misted fuel coming out of
the top of the left wing
1448
01:16:04,516 --> 01:16:07,606
made a thick white plume
of vapor behind the jetliner.
1449
01:16:07,650 --> 01:16:09,956
Then object two exploded
1450
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:12,785
with two nearly
simultaneous explosions.
1451
01:16:12,829 --> 01:16:15,614
Two ordnance explosions.
1452
01:16:15,658 --> 01:16:18,051
The timing difference
between the two explosions
1453
01:16:18,095 --> 01:16:19,923
was a fraction
of seconds.
1454
01:16:19,966 --> 01:16:21,794
Stalcup:
A third object
1455
01:16:21,838 --> 01:16:24,667
came racing out of the ocean
and climbed sharply.
1456
01:16:24,710 --> 01:16:26,799
It appeared
to come from a ship.
1457
01:16:26,843 --> 01:16:29,759
Witness:
At night in the evening,
ships turn on their lights.
1458
01:16:29,802 --> 01:16:31,978
Sometimes they'll have
a bright mast light.
1459
01:16:32,022 --> 01:16:36,417
This particular vessel
had a very bright mast light.
1460
01:16:36,461 --> 01:16:39,333
From the mast light,
1461
01:16:39,377 --> 01:16:41,509
there was another flash
1462
01:16:41,553 --> 01:16:45,252
and I saw another object
rise out of the ocean.
1463
01:16:45,296 --> 01:16:47,603
Stalcup:
Object three exploded
1464
01:16:47,646 --> 01:16:49,213
underneath
the aircraft's nose
1465
01:16:49,256 --> 01:16:51,041
causing it to fall off.
1466
01:16:51,084 --> 01:16:53,347
As the aircraft fell
to the ocean,
1467
01:16:53,391 --> 01:16:54,827
its wings broke off,
1468
01:16:54,871 --> 01:16:58,439
creating two huge fireballs
in the sky.
1469
01:17:00,267 --> 01:17:02,748
[ gavel banging ]
1470
01:17:02,792 --> 01:17:05,446
Good morning
and welcome to this meeting
1471
01:17:05,490 --> 01:17:07,405
of the National Transportation
Safety Board.
1472
01:17:09,363 --> 01:17:11,365
The cause of
the in-flight breakup
1473
01:17:11,409 --> 01:17:14,455
of TWA flight 800
1474
01:17:14,499 --> 01:17:17,894
was a fuel/air explosion
in the center wing tank.
1475
01:17:17,937 --> 01:17:20,548
After four years
of working on this,
1476
01:17:20,592 --> 01:17:23,247
I assume that you would have
liked to have been able
1477
01:17:23,290 --> 01:17:25,858
to come here today in front
of the family members
1478
01:17:25,902 --> 01:17:28,078
and tell them what
the ignition source was.
1479
01:17:28,121 --> 01:17:30,776
Sir, I would just love
to be able to walk in here
1480
01:17:30,820 --> 01:17:32,909
with a molten piece
of wire and say here it is,
1481
01:17:32,952 --> 01:17:36,521
but, no, sir, I cannot walk up
and say this is the piece.
1482
01:17:47,227 --> 01:17:49,229
[ speaking French ]
1483
01:18:02,765 --> 01:18:04,723
Stalcup:
No eyewitnesses
testified at the hearing.
1484
01:18:04,767 --> 01:18:08,118
Instead, the NTSB's
Dr. David Mayer,
1485
01:18:08,161 --> 01:18:10,555
the same guy who changed evidence tags in Hank's hangar,
1486
01:18:10,598 --> 01:18:12,818
gave an hour-long
presentation
1487
01:18:12,862 --> 01:18:15,255
explaining why eyewitnesses
are unreliable.
1488
01:18:15,299 --> 01:18:17,867
Psychologist Ira Hyman
has written that people
1489
01:18:17,910 --> 01:18:19,912
combine knowledge
from various sources
1490
01:18:19,956 --> 01:18:22,480
with their own
personal experience
to create memories.
1491
01:18:22,523 --> 01:18:25,091
It's been well documented
that people's memories
change over time.
1492
01:18:25,135 --> 01:18:29,139
Even memories that we're sure
of can contain errors.
1493
01:18:29,182 --> 01:18:31,445
Witness accounts
can change over time.
1494
01:18:31,489 --> 01:18:33,839
Witnesses' memories
do change over time.
1495
01:18:33,883 --> 01:18:35,885
People's memories
change over time.
1496
01:18:35,928 --> 01:18:38,104
Hughes:
David Mayer is Mr. Fixit.
1497
01:18:38,148 --> 01:18:40,150
You know,
he fixed the tags.
1498
01:18:40,193 --> 01:18:42,195
He fixed
the witness statements.
1499
01:18:45,982 --> 01:18:48,549
A group put a four-page ad
in the "Washington Times,"
1500
01:18:48,593 --> 01:18:51,291
including
six witness accounts.
1501
01:18:51,335 --> 01:18:52,510
What do you think
about those accounts?
1502
01:18:55,165 --> 01:18:58,603
Well, I actually have
the ad with me.
1503
01:18:58,646 --> 01:19:00,518
The final witness
in the advertisement
1504
01:19:00,561 --> 01:19:02,694
is identified
as witness 649.
1505
01:19:02,738 --> 01:19:06,132
Stalcup:
Witness 649
is Joseph Delgado.
1506
01:19:06,176 --> 01:19:09,657
Witness 649 described events
that certainly do
1507
01:19:09,701 --> 01:19:11,877
sound like a missile
attacking the airplane.
1508
01:19:11,921 --> 01:19:14,793
Witness 649 said
that everything he saw
1509
01:19:14,837 --> 01:19:16,621
occurred between
two flagpoles.
1510
01:19:16,664 --> 01:19:19,363
The yellow line shows
his line of sight
1511
01:19:19,406 --> 01:19:20,581
between those two
flagpoles.
1512
01:19:20,625 --> 01:19:22,322
They said everything he saw
1513
01:19:22,366 --> 01:19:23,671
occurred between
these two flagpoles.
1514
01:19:23,715 --> 01:19:25,543
And it looks like
a single line.
1515
01:19:25,586 --> 01:19:27,110
It isn't a single line.
It's two lines,
1516
01:19:27,153 --> 01:19:28,372
but they're
two degrees apart.
1517
01:19:28,415 --> 01:19:30,635
It happened
somewhere in here.
1518
01:19:30,678 --> 01:19:34,421
So we're looking at
a 20, 30-degree angle
separation.
1519
01:19:34,465 --> 01:19:36,728
- Or better.
- He had a baseball field
in front of him.
1520
01:19:36,772 --> 01:19:38,556
He wasn't constricted
by his viewpoint.
1521
01:19:38,599 --> 01:19:40,819
- It wasn't just two degrees?
- No.
1522
01:19:40,863 --> 01:19:43,126
- It wasn't just
a very narrow angle?
- No way.
1523
01:19:43,169 --> 01:19:45,345
- No way?
- [ laughs ] No.
1524
01:19:45,389 --> 01:19:47,347
Mayer:
So it doesn't appears that
this witness was looking
1525
01:19:47,391 --> 01:19:50,133
in the right location to see
flight 800 at the spot
1526
01:19:50,176 --> 01:19:52,091
where it would have been struck by a hypothetical missile.
1527
01:19:52,135 --> 01:19:55,965
Stalcup:
Next, Dr. Mayer talks about
eyewitness Fred Meyer,
1528
01:19:56,008 --> 01:19:59,359
a war veteran who flew
rescue helicopters in Vietnam.
1529
01:19:59,403 --> 01:20:03,276
He observed a streak
in flight
1530
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:04,756
for about one
or two seconds
1531
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:06,889
and then he saw the enormous
fireball develop.
1532
01:20:06,932 --> 01:20:10,022
Mr. Mayer here did not
tell the whole truth.
1533
01:20:10,066 --> 01:20:12,459
He mentioned something
that occurred
1534
01:20:12,503 --> 01:20:14,897
at the very end
of my statement.
1535
01:20:14,940 --> 01:20:18,204
I saw a streak of light
crossing the sky
1536
01:20:18,248 --> 01:20:21,164
in a nearly horizontal
direction.
1537
01:20:21,207 --> 01:20:23,557
And then I saw an explosion
1538
01:20:23,601 --> 01:20:26,778
which was,
in my estimation,
1539
01:20:26,822 --> 01:20:30,477
a high-velocity explosion
of military ordnance.
1540
01:20:30,521 --> 01:20:32,610
Something I'd seen
many times before.
1541
01:20:32,653 --> 01:20:35,656
And then after having
made that statement,
1542
01:20:35,700 --> 01:20:37,833
I made statements
regarding watching
1543
01:20:37,876 --> 01:20:39,704
the fireball descend
into the ocean.
1544
01:20:39,747 --> 01:20:42,925
The witness observations
of a streak of light
1545
01:20:42,968 --> 01:20:44,796
were not related
to a missile.
1546
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,234
The TWA flight 800
in-flight breakup
1547
01:20:48,278 --> 01:20:50,628
was initiated by
a fuel/air explosion
1548
01:20:50,671 --> 01:20:52,108
in the center wing tank.
1549
01:20:52,151 --> 01:20:55,285
The source of ignition energy
for the explosion
1550
01:20:55,328 --> 01:20:57,678
could not be determined
with certainty.
1551
01:20:57,722 --> 01:21:00,768
This then completes
the four-year investigation
1552
01:21:00,812 --> 01:21:04,511
into the tragedy
of TWA 800.
1553
01:21:04,555 --> 01:21:06,470
And I adjourn
this board meeting.
1554
01:21:17,829 --> 01:21:19,613
Stalcup:
I lived in Mashpee,
1555
01:21:19,657 --> 01:21:21,267
it's a little town
on Cape Cod.
1556
01:21:21,311 --> 01:21:23,661
We made our own ice cream,
made our own root beer.
1557
01:21:23,704 --> 01:21:26,882
We had four kids.
It was a wonderful childhood.
1558
01:21:26,925 --> 01:21:28,448
My father was
an oceanographer,
1559
01:21:28,492 --> 01:21:29,885
my mother was
a stay-at-home mom.
1560
01:21:29,928 --> 01:21:32,496
It was like a dream.
1561
01:21:32,539 --> 01:21:34,585
Life was a dream
and the birds were beautiful,
1562
01:21:34,628 --> 01:21:38,806
nature, go on
canoe trips, camping.
1563
01:21:38,850 --> 01:21:40,896
When I was seven years old,
my mother died.
1564
01:21:43,986 --> 01:21:46,989
When something like that
happens, it changes you.
1565
01:21:47,032 --> 01:21:50,775
You start to see
the value of life.
1566
01:21:50,818 --> 01:21:52,385
You know?
1567
01:21:52,429 --> 01:21:55,562
You, you know--
you have a--
1568
01:21:57,913 --> 01:22:00,045
you know...
1569
01:22:07,966 --> 01:22:11,752
You have a, you know,
beautiful mother
that loves you
1570
01:22:11,796 --> 01:22:15,365
and you're very young
and you're very dependent
on that woman.
1571
01:22:15,408 --> 01:22:18,281
And they're gone.
1572
01:22:18,324 --> 01:22:22,633
It's probably the most painful
thing you can ever go through.
1573
01:22:24,722 --> 01:22:27,246
And life goes on.
1574
01:22:29,509 --> 01:22:33,339
I was surprised that the cars
just didn't stop.
1575
01:22:36,125 --> 01:22:39,128
And you see the importance of life, really.
1576
01:22:41,043 --> 01:22:43,436
You know, you value life
a lot more
1577
01:22:43,480 --> 01:22:45,395
and you stand up
for what's right.
1578
01:22:45,438 --> 01:22:48,006
Mr. Chairman, members
of the committee,
1579
01:22:48,050 --> 01:22:51,575
my name is Joe Lychner
from Houston, Texas.
1580
01:22:51,618 --> 01:22:54,970
And one year ago today
on July 10,
1581
01:22:55,013 --> 01:22:57,537
I was the luckiest man
in the world.
1582
01:22:57,581 --> 01:23:01,280
I had a great home,
a loving family
1583
01:23:01,324 --> 01:23:04,109
including my beautiful wife
Pam who was 37,
1584
01:23:04,153 --> 01:23:06,503
my daughter Shannon
who was 10,
1585
01:23:06,546 --> 01:23:09,201
my daughter Katie
who was eight.
1586
01:23:09,245 --> 01:23:12,552
We had it all.
1587
01:23:12,596 --> 01:23:15,338
I had recently started
a new position with my company
1588
01:23:15,381 --> 01:23:17,818
and that's why I was
not with my family
1589
01:23:17,862 --> 01:23:20,299
when they boarded
TWA flight 800
1590
01:23:20,343 --> 01:23:22,693
for a short stay in Paris.
1591
01:23:40,276 --> 01:23:41,494
My name is Hank Hughes.
1592
01:23:41,538 --> 01:23:43,627
I'm a retired NTSB
investigator.
1593
01:23:43,670 --> 01:23:47,587
I was one of the principal
investigators of TWA
flight 800.
1594
01:23:47,631 --> 01:23:49,546
And, of course,
I worked with Bob Young,
1595
01:23:49,589 --> 01:23:51,939
who was the chief
investigator for TWA.
1596
01:23:51,983 --> 01:23:56,074
I am here because of some
concerns I've had
1597
01:23:56,118 --> 01:23:58,381
for well over 15 years.
1598
01:24:19,141 --> 01:24:22,448
The witnesses had
the courage to come forward
after this happened,
1599
01:24:22,492 --> 01:24:24,972
but they were ignored,
some of them were berated.
1600
01:24:25,016 --> 01:24:27,149
No witness was ever allowed
to testify.
1601
01:24:27,192 --> 01:24:30,456
Once it got to this point,
you can see these little
pieces right here,
1602
01:24:30,500 --> 01:24:31,588
well, this is
the wind direction.
1603
01:24:40,162 --> 01:24:43,426
Hughes:
The way to reopen
the investigation legally
1604
01:24:43,469 --> 01:24:47,517
is to file what they call
a petition for reconsideration.
1605
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:51,651
This petition
goes to the NTSB.
1606
01:24:51,695 --> 01:24:54,132
We're gonna write our name
on the line.
1607
01:24:54,176 --> 01:24:56,395
If you would like
to participate,
1608
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:58,876
we welcome you
to sign it, too.
1609
01:25:06,144 --> 01:25:07,711
Stalcup:
We're gonna read
our findings
1610
01:25:07,754 --> 01:25:09,756
and we're gonna all sign
them here in front of you.
1611
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:14,065
Number one: The explosion
that caused the crash
1612
01:25:14,109 --> 01:25:16,154
was external
to the aircraft.
1613
01:25:16,198 --> 01:25:20,289
Number two: FAA radar sites
recorded fast-moving debris
1614
01:25:20,332 --> 01:25:22,682
that travelled perpendicular
to the flight path.
1615
01:25:22,726 --> 01:25:25,859
No mechanism or event
in the official theory
1616
01:25:25,903 --> 01:25:28,384
can account
for this radar evidence.
1617
01:25:28,427 --> 01:25:31,648
A significant number of credible eyewitness accounts
1618
01:25:31,691 --> 01:25:34,433
are consistent
with an external event.
1619
01:25:34,477 --> 01:25:38,655
The CIA produced
an inaccurate crash animation.
1620
01:25:38,698 --> 01:25:42,528
Both the CIA and NTSB
crash simulations
are inaccurate.
1621
01:25:42,572 --> 01:25:45,662
There remains
significant anomalies
1622
01:25:45,705 --> 01:25:47,968
in the way this investigation
was conducted.
1623
01:25:48,012 --> 01:25:50,493
There were numerous
violations of customary
1624
01:25:50,536 --> 01:25:53,060
and normal
investigative protocol.
1625
01:25:53,104 --> 01:25:56,020
The NTSB's probable cause
determination for this crash
1626
01:25:56,063 --> 01:25:58,805
of flight 800
is not supported
1627
01:25:58,849 --> 01:26:01,373
by the physical evidence,
the eyewitness statements,
1628
01:26:01,417 --> 01:26:03,462
and other facts.
1629
01:26:49,204 --> 01:26:51,423
An object travelled
a great distance
1630
01:26:51,467 --> 01:26:54,121
at great speed
and converged with it.
1631
01:26:59,301 --> 01:27:01,390
I mean, it's...
1632
01:27:13,228 --> 01:27:15,447
You know, you try to--
1633
01:27:15,491 --> 01:27:18,189
it's a very difficult thing.
You have to try to forget
and move on.
1634
01:27:18,233 --> 01:27:20,322
And I think that's important
for a lot of people,
1635
01:27:20,365 --> 01:27:23,499
but to not
have this explored
1636
01:27:23,542 --> 01:27:24,891
to the depth
that it should be
1637
01:27:24,935 --> 01:27:27,024
is wrong.
125899
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