All language subtitles for The Sorrow and the Pity 2-eng

THE SORROW AND THE PITY

Chronicle of a French city
under the Occupation

Part Two: THE CHOICE

Demarcation line
Do not cross

On November 11th, on the French
German demarcation line at 7 a.m.,

under orders from the F�hrer,
the Wehrmacht

crossed unoccupied France
to the Mediterranean.

This is a response to Anglo-American
aggression in French North Africa

preventing the enemy from landing
on the southern coast of France.

At first, we called them the Fritzes,
then the Jerries,

the Krauts, the Boches,

the Beetles, the Verdigris.

Public imagination
was very fertile back then.

Why call them Beetles?

Because beetles eat potatoes
and leave nothing behind.

The Germans also left nothing behind.

� Not even potatoes?
� No potatoes.

What can you say in French?

I learned the rules of etiquette, greetings.

I learned to make myself understood,
especially to young ladies.

To go for a walk: �Excuse me, miss,
would you care to go for a walk with me?�

And what else?

Good day, sir. Good evening, sir.
Good night, ma'am.

This afternoon,
there were concerts in the occupied cities.

� Best out of three?
� Okay.

Of course, races were rare then.

In 1940, racing was almost obsolete.

It was only in 1941, 1942, and 1943
that racing really began.

I started in 1943.

� In 1943?
� That's right.

I started in 1943
in the Dunlop final with Bobet.

� We were in the same class.
� Is that right?

The class of '45 was pretty big.

There was Casara, Lazarid�s, Bobet...

You must understand that back then,
and I'm talking about cycling,

it was the only way
people had of getting around.

You started off your adult life
in a rather difficult age.

For example, what about girls?

� Girls?
� How was dating under Occupation?

It's true that there was a problem.
First of all, we were young.

On Sundays or in the evenings,
American Avenue was packed

with people �doing the avenue,�
as we called it.

From Jaude Square to Gaillard,
that was the place to be.

For a young man like yourself,
was it particularly irritating

to see a girl on a German soldier's arm?

� You must have seen some.
� Of course.

It was considered annoying everywhere,
not just in Clermont.

� Of course.
� It was generally frowned upon

to see a woman
accompanied by a German.

Some women dated Germans

but they paid for that later,
after Liberation.

Some paid a very high price indeed
for having dated Germans.

That's for sure.

There weren't many Germans in Clermont,
as it wasn't occupied.

Weren't the Germans here as of 1942?

No.

No, we only saw the Germans
through the Resistance.

Clermont was never occupied.

�No, we didn't see any!�
R. G�miniani 1969

We've been told there were
very few Germans in Clermont.

I saw too many of them.
I saw them everywhere.

I saw them in my waking hours,
and I saw them in my sleep.

Around their neck, they all wore ribbons
with some medal attached.

I saw them everywhere.

All I could see was helmets and Germans.

How come others didn't see them?

They must have been shortsighted

because Lord knows they were
everywhere. You couldn't miss them.

I had participated in the Russian campaign.

In January 1942, I was hurt. My feet froze.

I was declared unfit for service in the East

which is why I returned to France
that same year.

Service in France was humiliating
for an active serviceman like me.

For us, the East was the winning ticket.

Yes, but you didn't win.

No, we didn't,
but we couldn't have known that.

The major of my regime
understood my feelings.

He said to me,

�My dear Tausend,
all you have to do is play stupid

�and you'll be back in no time.�

But it didn't work, so I stayed
in Clermont-Ferrand till the end.

� Why? Couldn't you play stupid?
� No, I wasn't very good at that.

In late 1942,
everything was quiet in Clermont.

We were busy training new recruits

especially for anti-partisan operations.

The people in Clermont liked us.
We got along.

French or German,
it made no difference to them.

My friends and I lived in a hotel in Royat.

I think I still have some photos.

Royat is north of Clermont-Ferrand.

I had to put up with them.

But I must say that as far as
hotel guests go, I can't complain.

You say that you had to put up with them.

� Were they hard to put up with?
� No, it wasn't that.

No, it's just that they
kept me from working.

I would have preferred real guests.
After all, I wasn't paid.

As German soldiers,
we were able to get whatever we wanted.

Cheese, ham, salami: Everything was
available on the black market.

Did you ever get the feeling
that the people you patronized,

for example,
shopkeepers, hoteliers and the like

were compromising themselves
in the eyes of other Frenchmen?

Not at all. At least, not in 1942.

The situation somewhat deteriorated later,

when the so-called
�war of partisans� began.

I think I have a photo of that period,
in early 1943

when we had to put up barbed wire.

For example, in broad daylight,
they threw grenades at our soldiers

who were marching
to one of our movie theaters.

I don't know if they were thrown
from rooftops or what.

But there were
eight dead and 40 wounded.

An hour before the 6:00 show,
they came along

accompanied by armed sentries.

The soldiers were unarmed,
but the sentries were armed.

Then the terrorists threw the bombs
from high up on the city walls.

You can see them there.

The wounded fell, the ambulances came
and the show went on.

A terrible repression followed.
They burned down upper Clermont

in search of terrorists.
Many young men were taken.

Now obviously, we had to do something
about the situation.

The partisans had, of course, disappeared.

Did you know that many people
were arrested on Jaude Square,

many young people who were deported?

No, I didn't realize that.

All I know is that there was
a Gestapo unit in Clermont

which terrified the French.

Or so they always told us.

But they were there to protect us.

The Germans around here
would always tell us the same old story.

German-French cooperation
is the solution, they'd say.

They were convinced of it. I don't know.

� Maybe they were sincere.
� It's possible. I don't know.

They were almost too nice, yes, too nice

because they knew we didn't like them,
so they tried hard.

They'd almost always give their seat
in a tram to an elderly passenger.

And what about girls?

One night, Mrs. Mioche,
who was always very strict on the subject

saw a soldier come in after midnight
with two young ladies.

Mrs. Mioche wouldn't let the girls in.

As they continued insisting,
she went and got their captain.

The captain came down
and said Mrs. Mioche was right.

� They must not have been very happy.
� No.

But what could they say?
He was their captain. They had to obey.

And Mrs. Mioche was happy
with the outcome of the situation.

� So she was happy...
� Yes, but she was still afraid

that they would come in anyhow.

� She told them, �This isn't a...�
� A brothel.

And the next day, they requisitioned
a house across the street

hence solving their problem.

As is always the case in a war,
when soldiers are far from home

brothels were set up.

There were many in Clermont-Ferrand.

The Clermont girls wouldn't give us
the time of day on the streets.

And when you weren't on the streets?

It's true that they were
much friendlier at night.

The situation deteriorated
when the Michelin factory was bombed.

You know, the famous French tire factory,
which worked for us.

The Americans had bad aim
and sent bombs everywhere.

And naturally, people blamed us.

I think by late 1942, early 1943

the Resistance was busy everywhere.

English pilots would bomb France.
Didn't that bother you?

No, they didn't bomb people,
they bombed German-occupied factories

and that's all.

We were at war.

We were allies against the Germans.
It was the point of the Resistance.

I even had to sign a contract in London.

I was registered in London.

I still remember
my registration number: 61,055.

I was registered in London.

The last time I actually flew in one of these

was in May 1944 when we were
shot down over occupied France.

� Is it harder to get in one today?
� I have put on a couple of stone.

You don't look very French.
Did you have a moustache back then?

No, this is the point.
I did have a moustache

but I was asked to shave it off

as there didn't seem to be
many Frenchmen with moustaches about.

They supplied me with an old jacket,
not exactly a Savile Row style,

but it served its purpose...

And a beret. We cut the tops off
our boots to make shoes.

Did you find the people of France helpful?

Certainly.
People would risk their lives for you.

They knew if the Germans got them,
they would be shot without a trial.

I remember Mr. Sau�ay,
who put me up for quite some time.

I didn't know
cigarettes were so rare in France.

In England, there were lots.

But he gave me
20 cigarettes a day: Gauloises.

Sometimes, I'd even ask for more.

I only realized he was a smoker, too

when I saw him one night
cleaning up the ashtrays

and smoking my cigarette stubs.

� We'd go to the woods.
� Over there.

Over there, in the woods.

� And where did you keep the weapons?
� In my father's house, over there.

That's where we'd clean
the weapons we received.

� How about hiding places?
� There were some in the woods.

There were some in the vineyards,
in the woods

� and over there.
� I bet there are still some around.

This isn't a very big area,
so how did you manage?

People must have found out.

What was the reaction of villagers
who weren't in the Resistance?

� Well, they...
� They shut their mouths.

They kept very quiet.

First, I was taken by the police

then I was taken to Clermont

and then I was put in prison.

First, I was put in the Clermont prison

and then I was taken
to the prison in Le M�lisse.

� But I only stayed one day, then I...
� You should've stayed in Clermont.

Next, I was taken to two bis.

I was sent twice in one day,
and again the next day, and the next.

� I went five times.
� Were you tortured?

� Were you beaten?
� It was no party, let me tell you.

These gentlemen had found 12 parachutes

in our house and they wanted to know
how this came to be.

� But you didn't say?
� No.

I was liberated,
we were liberated, in full flight.

They'd been making us walk for three days

when the Germans abandoned us
in a little region.

I'll never forget it. It was called Itsdorf,
in Saxony, by the Elbe.

� Do you have any old photos?
� No, I was too ugly.

No one wanted to take my picture.

� Why? How much did you weigh?
� 92 pounds.

� Why didn't you take any pictures?
� I didn't want to.

I didn't think
anyone should see me like that.

� You were waiting to be...
� More handsome.

Yes, I saw a lot of suffering.

I saw a convoy arrive.

I think it came from Hungary.

Out of 50,000 people, not one...

I remember I was designated
to bring them some soup.

They were close to the movie theater.

There was a movie theater, a brothel,
and everything in Buchenwald.

It's the truth.

I brought them this soup,
and they fell upon it.

All 50,000 of them
literally fell upon this soup

spilling it everywhere.
They were down on their knees in the mud.

There must have been at least
eight inches of mud on the ground.

Well, they ate out of the mud.

And four days later,
they were all gunned down.

That was Buchenwald.

Did you notice any difference

between the various levels
of French society?

Most definitely. I can honestly say
that the people who helped me most

were the railroad men

and though it's hard to admit now,
the Communists.

French workers were wonderful people.

They would do anything.
They'd give you the shirt off their backs.

I stayed with these people,
I stayed in one room.

There was only one room and a kitchen,
and I slept in the kitchen

in a town called Juvisy, near Paris.

It was extremely
dangerous territory back then.

They would lend me some overalls

because every day, I'd walk along

and copy down
the various electric train lines

because we wanted to bomb them.

This wasn't really my job.
My job was the radio.

But I helped the others
when things were going slowly.

And so they lent me their overalls.

You've mentioned the workers,
but what about the French bourgeoisie

� from what you've seen of them?
� The bourgeoisie,

I must say, were very neutral.
They didn't help me much.

No, not the bourgeoisie.

I was impressed by the people,

the waiters in the restaurants,
the cashiers in the grocery stores.

There were always
go-betweens in these stores,

but they weren't sure
what they were doing.

And we never explained
what the danger was.

But the workers were always able
to provide me with what I needed

whereas the bourgeoisie was scared.

They had more to lose.

And I think that in life,
no matter where you go

people often consider
what they have to lose.

I had nothing to lose. That's why I did it.

I had no parents, I wasn't married,
so what did it matter?

Denis Rake was a boy.

Actually, he's older than I am.

He was a guy who had faith.

He was very patriotic,
with a very deep sense of duty.

He was amazingly brave.

He was incredibly shy,
and he hated firearms,

but we needed people like him

as they were brave enough
to overcome their fear.

It's true that deep down inside,

I wanted to prove that I was just as brave

as my friends
who had become pilots and so forth.

And as a homosexual,
at that moment in my life

it was one of my fears
that I'd lack the courage to do such things.

In that sense,
you shared the prejudice of others.

You felt that being homosexual would
make you less brave than the others?

Yes, I was afraid of that.

� Afraid?
� Yes.

Do you think the fact that you were
a theater man made you more inclined

� to go underground?
� Very much so.

I was a transvestite singer in Paris
in �Le Grand Ecart� for three months,

and in �La Cave Caucasienne�
for a long time.

We supplied the group we had formed
with parachutes from London

with the aim of preventing
the passage of German troops.

And we sent Denis Rake
as a radio operator.

�The Mont-Mouchet,�
like most of the Maquis groups

consisted of members
from the forced labor group

which was based in Auvergne.

What we didn't know was that
on the night Denis Rake arrived in France,

the Germans made an all out attack

and Denis Rake landed
smack in the middle of the battle.

He spent the night in a tree,
which he climbed down the next day

in order to send us a message
saying he'd arrived rather unexpectedly

and that all was well.

Gaspard was in charge of the Maquis.

I must say that I'm very proud
of my pseudonym �Gaspard�

because friends, as you saw earlier

wouldn't have called me Mr. Coulaudon.

Coulaudon is a well-known name,
but in my job, it doesn't matter.

It's an everyday name 30 years later.

Our mission was to find a Maquis
led by a man named Gaspard.

� In Mont-Mouchet?
� That's right.

He was an incredible man,
and he put up an impressive fight.

But he was greedy:

Greedy for glory, greedy for everything.

We had the feeling
that Gaspard had won the approval,

the love and affection of the people

the patriots that followed him,
an unquestionably great leader.

This is where the Resistance
began in Auvergne.

This is where we formed our first group.

Back then, we had a dog
we had named de Gaulle.

De Gaulle latched on to us
and stuck with us during both winters.

What is that monument?

It was built
in memory of our first troop to die.

When the Germans surrounded the village,

we couldn't get in because of the snow.

We were all on expedition,
except four young men

who stayed behind
because they weren't healed.

And these four young men
were taken by the Germans.

Early that morning,
they followed the less snowy train tracks

checked out the lay of the land

and headed to our cottage,
thinking they'd get us all.

There were four young men, one of whom
came out barefoot in the snow,

a 19-year-old boy from Volvic,
a village we'll see later.

We called him Milamon.
A relative of his, Jean Lain�

tried to machine-gun down the Germans,
who then killed him.

We found his body
strewn across the snow.

He died immediately.

A second boy was killed in his bed.

He didn't even have time to get up
before being taken.

There were two young men left.
One hid in a trunk, he was so small.

He was 19 years old.

� What was the boy's name again?
� Chevalier.

No, it was 15 grams.
15 grams or four pounds.

15 grams: That was all the boy weighed.

He was also taken here.

One thing I find appalling is when
people who were P�tain supporters

come up and tell me
what they did for the Resistance.

Sometimes, it's unreal. �Oh Mr. Gaspard,

�if only you knew what we did,
what I did for the Resistance...�

Go ahead, pal, tell me all about it.

I try to stay calm. I'm a salesman
and I want to sell my product.

The company doesn't pay me
to do politics and pick fights.

So sometimes I find myself obliged
to listen to a song and dance

of some guy who shows me a drawer
and gets his wife to confirm

that there was indeed a revolver
in that drawer during the war

a revolver which he was supposedly
ready to use on the Germans.

Only he never actually used it.
History doesn't lie.

As you know,
I was an N.C.O. In the French army.

I can see your question coming.
Didn't I skip a few ranks?

But what could I have done?

In fact, one man, a friend of mine

was saying in the car earlier,

�Didn't you go to school?� No, I laughed.

The best I did, in the words
of the former mayor of Combronde

was the school of crime,
which is nothing more

than our mandatory answer
to those who were killing our friends.

� There's one thing you're forgetting.
� What?

When de Gaulle, from London,
invited every French officer,

every last lazy good-for-nothing
to join the Maquis,

if they had answered his call...

If they had, the Resistance
could have avoided certain mistakes.

They were hiding in the woods
like children from the Germans.

They didn't want to work for them.

These admirable patriots
could definitely have used

the help and leadership
of the French officers

who were busy
warming their feet by the fire...

Don't try to deny it.

I know many people who are guilty.

That's the truth.

Many people I knew just stayed at home.

I asked them, at the time,
why they didn't follow their friends' lead.

They claimed they didn't know
how to get in touch with the Resistance.

Somehow, an old fool like me
knew how and they didn't.

If we could do it again,
would you still make me a colonel,

or would you bring me down
to staff sergeant or adjutant?

If I've understood correctly,
Colonel Gaspard wants to know if

25 years down the road,
you'd still be willing to trust him.

Exactly.
I believe that it's because of men like him

that we accomplished something.
No thanks to those who stayed home.

� Mark my words.
� This isn't a referendum here.

He mixes everything up.
I'm trying to talk politics.

But it's what I wanted to hear.
Today, a new type of neo-Nazism

is slowly rearing its ugly head

which is why I feel it's important
we participate in these interviews.

We said �nyet� because we thought
and continue to think

that we must not mix things up,
as the veterans of Verdun have done.

Those men were heroes,
but they've been caught in a trap.

I believe there's a risk
that either Nazism will re-emerge,

or some form of Nazism
under a different name.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Hang on a minute.
There's one thing we often tend to forget.

The Germans were Nazis. Fine.

But were the French
any better than the Nazis?

� Stop it.
� I had a woman shot,

a 60-year-old woman
who had sold me to the Gestapo.

She sold me for money.
So did my son, for thirty pieces of silver.

The people in Auvergne,
in a country where we failed

like in Brittany, Vercors, or anywhere else

who wanted to find the Resistance
had no problem finding it,

if that person really wanted to fight,

or even to fight in the underground
without necessarily going all out.

Our goal, first and foremost,
was to attempt

to create a climate
of psychological fear for the Germans

to keep them in a state of fear
to cut off communications lines,

and hopefully blow everything up.

That was it.
The goal wasn't to kill the Germans.

Why bother killing
10, 20, 50, or even 100 Germans?

Come on. Please. Not at all.

Our goal was basically to prevent them...

If you don't mind,
I'd like to add something.

Our goal was never to be
an army facing another army.

And yet, what eventually happened

due to ever-increasing enthusiasm

was that we ended up
with 10,000 armed men.

Allow me to give an example.

A detachment of our troops near Clermont

passes in front of 20-odd peasants
digging up potatoes.

Suddenly, they all drop their tools,
dash towards their guns

and proceed to shoot 14 of our men dead.

� Do you consider that a partisan war?
� No.

For me, partisans are people
who wear armbands, helmets and the like.

What happened in that potato field
was assassination.

You must admit
that we were obliged to react.

I'd even say that it was our duty,
as officers

to demand security measures
for our troops.

After Liberation, I was given the task
of guarding German prisoners.

I supervised a whole commando,

but I never hurt them
and I never yelled at them.

If I'd treated them
the way they'd treated me

I wouldn't have been any better than them.

And I didn't want that.

These old guys were all veterans
from World War I, from the Shupo.

What could we possibly do
with men like that?

They hadn't hurt us.

The people who had hurt us
had taken off at high speed.

They were long gone.

But these old guys had done us no harm.

I remember one of these men
had broken his gun.

This man gave me an apple
as we were marching.

We'd been marching for three days,

and as we walked along,
the old guy slipped me an apple.

See what I mean?

That was the day we'd had
one loaf of bread for 22 men.

In the afternoon, of that same day,
at 3:00, we were liberated.

To be a member of the Resistance,
did you need political training?

� No.
� What was your family background?

My family background
was always rather left wing.

I was never an extremist,
but I was always left wing.

� So what were you then?
� I was a Socialist.

I'm still a Socialist today.

And I'm proud of it.

Although the Party has a few people
which really should be...

They're people like me,
who are getting old.

Why get 80-year-old people
to govern our country?

We should put them out to pasture.

People say that some peasants
got rich during the war.

There are some.

There are some, that's for sure.

Maybe it would have been better
to get rich on the black market.

Then I'd be rich
and everyone would like me.

But I was in the Resistance,
so they think I'm dumb.

And rightly so!

Do you think
that having been in the Resistance

gives you a good or bad reputation

in the minds of others?

I think it has always given us
a bad reputation.

Because when we were active,
they called us terrorists

� or bandits.
� Yes, bandits.

� Many people still believe this.
� Some even called us profiteers.

Yes, because we did parachuting.

There were some people
who claimed to be in the Resistance

and took advantage of this
to steal and loot.

� That's why many people think...
� They were thieves.

Weren't there two types of Resistance?

There was the anti-German side,
and then the anti-Nazi side.

For us, German or Nazi,
they were both the same.

They were one and the same.

I used to feel that we should distinguish
between the German people and the Nazis.

But after I was taken prisoner,
thrashed, and fed by catapult...

I'm sorry, but I reacted
like any hungry man

and considered them one and the same.

There were some Germans
who weren't Nazis in their heart.

But those Germans
were in the concentration camps.

Don't forget that concentration camps
opened in Germany in 1933.

All Germans were Nazis.

Any Communists in Germany
were sent to the camps.

And when you met a German in a camp,

it wasn't like hurting a Communist.

� Did any Communists join the Nazis?
� Theoretically not.

But I wasn't about to ask them.
I don't speak German.

The Germans we fought in Auvergne
were all Nazis.

� Or members of the S.S.
� Nazis or members of the S.S.

� That was it.
� Did you kill any Krauts?

Probably, but we didn't see it.
When you are in a hole

standing behind your machine gun,
you don't know what you've hit.

And bad Frenchmen?

I knew many bad Frenchmen,
but I never killed any of them.

� And the rest of you?
� Me neither.

I was already a black sheep,
the odd man out.

I had married an American divorc�e,
a Grossfeld to boot.

I had done many things:
I had smoked opium,

I had written many extraordinary articles,

and I was considered a black sheep,
one who would never succeed.

It's always a shock for society
to see a black sheep succeed.

Despite my weakness for Communists,

the day I became a minister,
my family accepted me.

But what did I find in the Resistance?

The most important thing for me,
other than dignity

was that it was truly a classless society.

The problems of everyday life
ceased to exist.

We were very free.

What I'm going to say may sound mean,

but I think that to be a Resistant,
you had to be maladjusted.

We were free in the sense that,
as outcasts of society,

the organization of society
no longer concerned us in the least.

You can't imagine a real Resistant
being a full-fledged minister,

or a colonel or a businessman.
Such people have succeeded.

They would succeed
with Germans, Englishmen or Russians.

But we were failures
and I was one of those failures.

We had quixotic feelings
that are so typical of failures.

Some people are Resistants by nature.

In other words,
some people are naturally headstrong.

Others, on the contrary,
try to adapt to the circumstances,

and get what they can out of it.

If you are a Resistant over everything
and nothing, you're exaggerating.

But if you accept everything, you're lying.

There were six of us:

A gas-company worker, a pimp,
a public transport worker,

a butcher from Quipavas
and others like that.

On the quay of Port-Vendres,

I found men who were simply men
who had fled like others had fled,

like I had fled,
who asked me what they could do.

I said, �Why not join the Resistance?�

I went down along the coast
until I reached,

in St-Jean-de-Luz, an English ship
with orders to take no Frenchmen,

only a Polish division on its way to London.

So I said, �Let's go to headquarters,

�the 5th Marine Bureau,
where we can do something.�

And so I went to Collioure.

The office had been set up in a brothel,

because there was
nothing else available in the area.

They said, �Why resist? You're mad.�

And they demobilized me.

I went to Marseilles,
where, with a few men,

I realized we had to fight in France,
not abroad.

We were all aware of the fact that
we were appealing to the patriots,

who saw that we were people
who actually fought,

whereas many other people
were just full of talk about resisting.

We weren't talkers, we were fighters.

The patriots had seen the amazing gesture
of a militant Communist,

who was perhaps unaware
of the effect this gesture would have.

Just before being shot
by the Nazis in Chateaubriand,

the metallurgist
Jean-Pierre Timbaud cried out,

�Long live the German Communist Party!�

And that, you see...

Why are you anti-Communist, Colonel?

The main reason is that I'm a Catholic.

I know they helped the Resistance,

and I'm also aware of the fact that

they participated, for the most part,

in their own interests,

in order to defend Russia,

Communist Russia,
which is their motherland.

Russia is their motherland?

Although they claim to be international,

Russia is, after all,
the country that defends their ideals.

Our main disagreement was the following:

Should we aim to be a reserve army,

or an army that grows strong
through battle?

Both sides had different opinions.

How did you manage to reconcile
these differences in the Resistance?

I wasn't very good at it.

Indeed, as regional leader in Limoges,

I never once made contact
with the Communists.

� Although you were supposed to?
� Although I was ordered to.

� And the order came from London?
� Yes.

The army ranks generally viewed us
as dangerous people,

who were prepared to shed blood
for reasons they felt inadequate.

We were surprised by London's insistence

that we join together
in fighting for the Resistance.

We felt that it would be dangerous
to arm these Communists.

After all, some of these Communists

were not very commendable people.

We feared this would
lead to problems after Liberation.

From what I've understood,
you were in charge of the assault groups.

Did you participate in any assaults?

I did some sabotage,

but I never assaulted anyone.
What I mean is

that I never deliberately shot down
a German in the street.

� But you would have?
� Yes, had it been my job,

but that was not my responsibility.

You say the Communists
were not very commendable people.

For example, some of the Communists
they had recruited

were condemned people, for example.

It was due to these conditions

that we praised the action
taken by Pierre George, Colonel Fabien,

who killed a German in the metro.

People had to get used to fighting.

There were two ways of seeing things.

All over Paris, there were lists
of those who had been killed.

Either you could give in to despair,
and resign yourself to do nothing,

or you could fight.

The army would give orders to attack,

whereas the Communists were in favor
of immediate guerrilla warfare,

in the form of assassinations or sabotage.

They were disobeying the orders
we'd been sent from London.

We thought to ourselves

that orders of that nature
shouldn't be obeyed,

and we, of all people,
used one of de Gaulle's sayings,

which we twisted around, and said,

�National insurrection
goes hand in hand with liberation.�

The Resistance was
a permanent guerrilla war.

It was three guys who intercepted
a German convoy on the road,

threw three grenades, shot two rounds,
and took off in the wilderness.

And this proved to be the only way
of training and keeping fighters.

Do you have the impression
that France today

has been somewhat determined

by the way it was during WWII,
or at least from '39 to '44?

I'm convinced of it.

The proof of this is that
de Gaulle began his life,

his political life,

by a breach of trust.

This breach of trust was rather odd.

I think that if in 1940

we had had the same referendum
we had a few days ago, on April 27,

some 90%/% of the French population

would have voted for P�tain
and a quiet German occupation.

So he was at complete odds with history.

The Free French do not accept this defeat.

The Free French do not consent
to the idea that,

on the pretext of European unification,

their country should be used by the enemy

as a departure point
for attacking other peoples,

who are fighting for the same ideals.

Until the day we met the main player...

Until the day I said,
�I want to see de Gaulle,�

it didn't go so well.

I found myself facing a man
who astounded me,

because he was already
quite simply the king of France.

� But his subjects didn't know him.
� He was a king without subjects.

There are two things
we still haven't fully understood today

concerning the position
of de Gaulle and the Free French.

In England at that time,
there were several foreign governments,

but they were all governments,

whereas de Gaulle
and the Free French were not.

All the other powers here in London

had come with their governments:
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Norwegians.

Their governments in London
were the same as the ones at home.

But this wasn't the case in France,
as P�tain was still in power.

Is that not the worst accusation of P�tain
and the Vichy administration

that one could possibly make?

After all,
France is the only country guilty of this.

Yes, that's true.

At the heart of the debate,

it is true that de Gaulle,
because his means were so limited,

because his army was so small,

and the territories behind him
so secondary,

that he really had no other choice

than to be extremely rigid,

to be a stickler
for the rights he represented.

� His pride became a weapon.
� It's true that his pride, tenacity

and rather inflexible nature
did not make things any easier.

But I do think that politically thinking,
he was right.

Understand that politically, he was right.

Pierre Mend�s-France, flying officer in '39,

was accused of desertion
by the Vichy regime,

and sentenced
by Clermont military tribunal.

The former prime minister
managed to escape

and arrived in London via Switzerland.

I must admit that what happened in France
had traumatized me greatly.

I had a difficult time getting over the insult

of having been accused of desertion
in face of the enemy.

I felt a need to fight,
to prove that I was a fighter.

When I arrived in London,
my choice was clear.

� Because of the accusation of desertion?
� Yes.

That night, I found myself facing de Gaulle
for the first time.

He questioned me thoroughly
on the state of France,

as he was obviously on the lookout
for information,

and wanted to know
what people were thinking,

how the French felt
towards the Resistance.

I must admit that meeting de Gaulle was

for me an overwhelming thing.

It was a deeply moving event.

And I must say
that our first meeting went very well.

Wasn't he cold? They say
that when people came from France...

� That's true.
� He was happy, but...

No, it's true.

He was a shy man,

and it was this shy nature of his
that was at the root of his cold manner

of welcoming certain people.

He wasn't cold to me, maybe because
we had a long conversation.

What was the general spirit
of the Free French Fighters?

It was... There's no denying
that it was a very unusual army.

It was very limited in number,
because of the situation.

They all arrived feeling, and let's not
mince words, rather humiliated,

because the ruling
French government, Vichy,

had signed the armistice
and abandoned England.

They didn't know how welcomed
they would be in England.

But they were welcomed with open arms.

Every one of them
felt a deep sense of gratitude

for the simple fact
that the English welcomed them.

And then there was a sense of admiration
for the English people,

who were the only ones
to stand up to the storm.

What was unique about the French pilots

was the ever-present debate

on whether or not
we had the right to bomb France.

The Lorraine squadron was a unit

whose planes didn't have
a very large field of action.

So there was, unfortunately,
no way we could bomb Berlin.

But the targets we were given
were often Belgium, Holland or France.

And that was really a cruel dilemma.

It was this preoccupation,
this haunting worry,

which led us to progressively specialize

in a type of bombing
which had the least hitches,

to use the term they employed then.

It was a type of hedgehopping.
We would bomb at very low altitudes,

which was much riskier,
but allowed us greater accuracy.

England victorious?

Half of its regular navy has sunk,

as has a third of its wartime navy.

England has lost Europe.

It is losing the very little influence
it had on the Soviets,

and it is losing its influence on India.

England has been defeated.

England's only way out
is to call in the Bolsheviks.

But as a Frenchman,
I'd be afraid they'd stab us in the back.

PRESIDENT LAVAL SPEAKS OUT

�IF GERMANY DOESN'T WIN,
BOLSHEVISM WILL�

My father-in-law's philosophy,

the one often shared with the family,

was that the only realistic solution

was for our country to gain time

while Germany got increasingly
involved in their war

against the Russians,

a war which, in his opinion,
would last for years,

and in so doing, we would allow France

to maintain its position in the world,
as well as its empire.

On April 21, 1942,

in an appeal to France, the head of
government stated to his listeners:

I have meditated on
what I am now saying in my village,

in the land of Auvergne
to which I remain very attached.

But the time spent in the privacy
of his own family was limited,

and as the clock struck 8:00,
he had to return to work.

He spent a few more moments
with the locals of the area

who come every morning to chat with him.

I truly believe that the majority
of Frenchmen today

realize that Pierre Laval
did all he could to defend them.

You've seen for yourself,
as you visited the village today,

and interviewed people
who saw Pierre Laval at work,

that not one single person

is willing to accuse Laval
of any outrageous crime.

� You knew my father-in-law well?
� Yes.

We knew each other quite well
during the period of 1936 to 1944.

The last time I saw him was on the eve
of his permanent move to Paris.

I never saw him again.

But in Vichy, I used to see him every day.

We would discuss our problems,
from mineral water to sawmills.

� Did you ever discuss politics?
� Never.

No, we never discussed politics.

Why did the whole of France
condemn him at that moment?

The whole of France didn't condemn him.

Certainly not.

Sometimes I'd visit him in the castle,

and appeal to him
on behalf of my prisoners.

Would you come here?

� Hello, sir.
� Hello.

These gentlemen are in Ch�teldon
making a film on the Occupation.

� How old were you when war began?
� Twenty five years old.

� What regiment were you in?
� The 28th Artillery Regiment.

� And what happened?
� We were taken prisoner on June 20.

And then, after some hard times,

as a favor from the President, Mr. Laval,
I had the privilege

of being repatriated to Ch�teldon.

And I thank both him and the Countess.

In what year did you return?

I returned on October 17, 1941.

It was certainly a big favor
as some had to stay until '45 or longer.

So it was lucky to be taken prisoner
if you were from Ch�teldon?

We were the privileged few.

Today, Ren� Bousquet,
from the Ministry of the Interior,

picked up the head of the government

in order to make full use
of the 20 minutes from Ch�teldon to Vichy.

The secretary general made his report,

and the man in charge knows
the decisions he must soon take.

I say that if the Germans
had only had their own Gestapo,

they couldn't have caused
half the harm they did.

Yes, they killed people in the street,

but it was the French police who helped.

If the French police had not helped
seek out the Communists,

not to mention all the other patriots,

the Germans would have made
a stab in the dark,

but they could never have hit as hard

as they hit the French Resistance.

Is that you?
Bring me the latest police reports.

It's now time for the daily meeting

of the head of state
and the head of government.

Every one of France's problems

is thoroughly and openly examined
by the two men.

Marshal P�tain didn't have
a thing in common with the President.

P�tain was a stickler for order.
Laval liked to improvise.

They were complete opposites
of one another.

They had nothing in common.

What inspired him to take Laval
a first time and then a second?

The first time, he didn't have much choice,

as it was basically Laval
who made P�tain head of state.

The second time, he was in what
you could call a rather tragic situation,

where the occupiers
basically forced him to choose Laval.

Marshal P�tain was surrounded by a legion

of right wing and far right wing influences,

whereas my father-in-law, I repeat,

was a man
who could be considered a centrist today.

Laval's policies were pro-German
because he believed in them.

Let me just quickly tell you
something Laval told me.

You, of course,
remember that horrible radio show

during which he declared,
�I hope Germany wins.�

I was in Paris. The next day,
I met with my family in Auvergne.

I first stopped in Vichy
because I couldn't understand

how a Frenchman could say such a thing.

I saw Laval the next morning:

�Sir, I am appalled
by what you said yesterday.�

�What did I say?�
�That you wanted Germany to win.�

He added, �And after?
What did I add afterwards?�

�I was so aghast that I can't remember.�

He said, �Win the war against Bolshevism.�

I recently read an old issue
of Le Moniteur du Puy-de-D�me,

on which most of the front page
was dedicated to the words of Laval:

�I hope Germany wins.�

There were several interpretations
of this statement,

and some people have said
that we must remember that he added,

�I hope they win as I'm involved
in the fight against Communism.�

Yet not everyone in France
was Communist,

each one of us has their own ideas,
which is why we fought.

We can't be anti-Communist,
because we're not anti-anything.

It's the same thing as saying,
�And those freemasons,

�they must be sent to the camps.�

Or, �So you're a Jew? All the Jews
must be burned in the gas chambers.�

During the relatively long time
you spent in Clermont-Ferrand,

did you ever see or hear
of the persecutions that occurred?

No, I didn't see or hear
anything about them.

Are you denying that the Jews,
the Juden, were persecuted?

Do you mean the Jungen, the young,
or the Juden, the Jews?

The Juden.

I had no idea how many Jews
had infiltrated partisan ranks.

In any case, it wasn't the army's job
to take care of the Jews.

An extremely disturbing census was taken

of the Jews
who were either deported or arrested

in the various countries
occupied by Germany,

and, with the exception of France,

the statistics are terrifying.

Of all these Jews, in 1946,

only 5.8%/% survived.

Whereas, if you look at the statistics,

which nobody is denying,

concerning French Jews,

only 5%/% did not survive.

Just take, for example, the army.

Sir, excuse me for interrupting you,

but the statistic you quote,
and which I know well

refers only to
non-denaturalized French Jews.

However, there is another statistic

which is fatefully similar to yours,

which says
that of the non-naturalized Jews,

the foreign Jews
and the denaturalized Jews,

only 5%/% survived,

the same average as in other countries.

So I am asking you
if a statesman has the right,

even if he is a Frenchman
and a great patriot,

to make such decisions
concerning other human beings?

It was a tragic and dramatic situation,

in which one had to make the choice

which would save
the most human lives possible.

I was brought up in a middle-class family.

I went to Pasteur High School,

but for me, being Jewish wasn't an issue,
as we weren't religious.

And when I found out through others
that I was Jewish,

at first, I felt extremely sad

to be rejected by my community
and this country I loved,

not because I was born here,
but because I loved the history.

Then I took an interest in Jews.

I think that discussing statistics
in such a situation is impossible.

The fact that the French government
agreed to turn in French nationals,

and even people to whom France
had traditionally granted asylum,

proves that the government
wasn't worthy of its country,

and of all that we loved
and respected about France.

France is the only country in all Europe
whose government collaborated.

Others signed an armistice or surrendered,

but France was the only country
to have collaborated and voted laws

which were even more racist
than the Nuremberg Laws,

as the French racist criteria
were even more demanding

than the German racist criteria.

It's not something to be proud of.

I understand that history books
only present the positive side,

but historically speaking, that's wrong.

I was arrested for belonging to F.T.P.

I was arrested during an armed campaign.

� When you were 16 years old?
� I was 16, going on 17.

I was arrested by the French police,

and though I wasn't tortured,
I was interrogated for 18 days

in a rather physical manner.

I spent one year in a French prison.

In prison, I saw seven
of my fellow group members gunned down,

by squads of French policemen.

And I was given over to the S.S.,
with the other prison inmates,

on July 2, 1944,
by the French penitentiary administration,

the only one in Europe that stooped so low

as to give the Germans every inmate,
bound hand and foot.

I was deported on the �train of death,�

thus named because it sat for two months
being shot at by the English

who didn't know who was in it.
I escaped on August 25, 1944.

The train arrived in Dachau on the 27th.

That's when I found out
that my parents were there.

I hadn't seen my parents in four years,
and I was told they'd been deported.

France was full of concentration camps:

Lurs, Arg�les, Rivesaltes,
Fortbarreau, Drancy,

and many others.

Along with the Jews,
there were Spanish Republicans,

Freemasons and Gypsies.

And all these people were delivered
to the Germans upon their request.

The people who had participated in
these persecutions were large in number,

not to mention
those who participated indirectly,

for their own personal reasons,
to be rid of their competitors, etc.

Out of 130 letters of denunciation
at the Jewish Questions Committee,

at least half were written by doctors

who were informing the Gestapo
or the Jewish Questions Committee

against such and so
who was in direct competition with them.

One fine summer day, the Paris police,

under the supervision of the S.S.
And the Gestapo in occupied lands,

organized a day of Jewish arrests
in the capital.

This day was henceforth known
as the Rafle du Vel d'Hiv.

At that time,
the Germans had only planned on arresting

people over 16 years of age.
They weren't going to arrest children.

Yet the Paris police,
which organized July 16

with such enthusiasm that they earned
the praise of the Germans,

began arresting children.

So there were these 4,051 children
sitting in the V�lodrome d'Hiver,

crying and wetting their pants.

They caused the social workers,
mostly Quakers or Protestant women,

very serious problems.

As the Germans hadn't planned
on deporting these children,

they first deported the parents
to camps in France,

hence separating the children
from their parents,

while waiting for a decision.
Eventually, Eichmann...

No, it was R�thke,
Eichmann's representative,

who sent a telegram to Berlin

to ask what should be done
with these children.

While they were waiting,

Laval is reported to have said,

�The children must be deported, too.�

This appears in a telegram from Danneker,
who was based in France.

This telegram can be
consulted in the C.D.J.C. Archives.

In my opinion, there are two things
that prove it's authentic:

Firstly, Pastor Beugner's attempt
to convince Laval to protect the children.

According to Beugner,

when he suggested evacuating
the children, possibly to America,

Laval replied, �It doesn't matter.
I'm preventing the disease.�

I'm sorry for interrupting
when it's not my turn, sir.

But if these children had seen what I saw,

if they'd seen these poor people,
men and women,

young and old, people of every age,

piled up in these trucks,

shoved in like human cattle,
one on top of the other.

And I knew where they were going.
I knew. There was only one thing to do.

Had they seen this,
they'd have done what I did.

They'd have taken their handkerchiefs,
said to their employees,

�Excuse me. I'll be back in a minute.�

And they'd have gone and cried.

Does anti-Semitism still exist in Auvergne?

� Yes. Still alive and well.
� What makes you say that?

For example, it's common
to refer to someone as a �Yid� or a �Jew.�

� In student circles in Clermont?
� Yes.

Do you think the reason behind this
may be the fact

that the Occupation
isn't discussed enough?

In a big family like mine,
I have seven and a half children,

since the advent of modern times,
a father only has one main concern:

Earning money.

There's no family conversation,
no family life,

because it takes time and we need money.

How many of these children survived?

� What was the percentage?
� None of the children made it.

I wasn't the first
to lead an inquiry on the subject

of what happened
to the children in the camps.

And I discovered that they were
immediately gassed to death.

My father-in-law was against repression.

Everyone knows that.

Even after his last meeting,
Pierre Laval's day isn't over.

As the H�tel Matignon falls silent,

the president knows
that tomorrow is a new day to start again

and has clearly defined his objectives:

In my opinion, this work is necessary,

and I will not quit
until France's salvation is assured.

So I ask you to understand
and try to support my work.

A visit to Sigmaringen Castle

accompanied by a former volunteer
in the Waffen SS Charlemagne Division.

May 1969

Till 1944,

the royal family lived in this castle.

Under orders from Hitler's regime,

the royal family was given 24 hours

to leave the castle.

The new Vichy administration
was given these quarters.

This is where Marshal P�tain
and Prime Minister Pierre Laval

remained until the surrender of Germany.

I came with two friends. We'd just
returned from Yanovitz, near Prague,

where we'd been taking
advanced anti-tank lessons,

and we had a very precise question
we wanted to ask Marshal P�tain,

as we knew he was here,

about whether or not
the final point we had reached

was logical,
and if we should make the jump

and leave for the Eastern front.

What was this final point?

The final point was wearing
a German uniform,

something neither our education

nor, at a certain point,

the taste for something new
we'd experienced in our youth,

had prepared us for.

We arrived here at the castle
and asked to see Marshal P�tain.

There were guards around,
French policemen.

Our request was quickly turned down.
Marshal P�tain refused to see us.

� How about Laval?
� He wouldn't see us either.

How did you feel about that?
It must have been a big letdown

as you thought
that there would be some complicity

between the people
who preached the policies

and you who put them into practice.

It was a complete
and devastating letdown.

It made us want to leave there
as quickly as possible,

and join our friends in Wilflecken,

head for the Eastern Front,
and get it over with.

We no longer had any illusions.

It is hard for me to speak
on behalf of 7,000 young men,

for there were 7,000 young men
from different walks of life

who fought on the Eastern front

in the Charlemagne Division.

They say that only 300 survived.

I believe it. It's very important.

As I told you, the majority of them

weren't prepared in the least
to wear that uniform,

and specially not
the most extreme uniform.

� The Waffen S.S. Uniform?
� Yes, that's right.

So the Frenchmen at Vichy,
upon seeing you in these uniforms,

treated you like you were...

Like we were an embarrassment,

an embarrassment which was
going to require explanation in the future.

But as you know,
in the years that followed,

the Vichy people tried to explain
that it was simply part of a policy,

and that it wasn't really serious.

That astounds me.

You know, when 7,000 young men,

many of whom might have become
the leaders of our nation,

are massacred in another country's
uniform. For me, that's serious.

Here you see a portrait
of Princess Stephanie,

the queen of Portugal.

She was the wife of the Portuguese king
Don Pedro the 5th,

and died at a very young age.

In order to understand
many people's involvement in the war,

you have to think back
to 1934 at the earliest.

There was not
a single high school in France

which was not in a state of agitation.

From 1934 onwards,

there were extremely violent
political fights in high schools.

There were editorials in Gringoire,
Candide, Action Fran�aise,

in Populaire, and Humanit�.

People were constantly encouraged
to fight one another.

Furthermore, soldiers felt they were
the guardians of the right wing.

In February 1934,
which was an important date

in the history
of pre-war political fighting in France,

� how old were you?
� I was almost 13 years old.

Politics already concerned you?

They spoke of revolution.

For people like us,
there really wasn't any choice.

We wouldn't choose the Communists,

so we had to choose
the other revolutionary party,

which was fascism.

There is a lot of discussion
on anti-Semitism.

Don't forget that my entire youth
took place in an atmosphere

which was ripe in violent anti-Semitism.

And we were also

touched by the fact that in February 1934,
people were killed.

It was the beginning of a revolution.
France was divided into two.

Did the fear of Communism play
a major role in your political awakening?

There was one event
which happened abroad,

but was of extreme importance.

While one generation grew up
with the Algerian war

and was interested in it,

we were most interested
in the war in Spain.

How could a boy of my age,

raised in the environment
in which I was raised,

be anything other than
a devoted anti-Communist,

when all the papers that I read at the time

were constantly running photos

of nuns who had been gunned down,

of Carmelites who'd been unearthed,

of desecrated tombstones and so forth?
This was...

� This was your background.
� Yes, exactly. Exactly.

As far as fascism was concerned,

how did it strike you,
intellectually speaking?

Did you know what it was all about?

I must admit that I had a vague idea.

For us, it was a way
of rebelling against our families.

The first images we saw of Nuremberg
were like a new religion.

We were astounded. I can honestly say
that it was like a mass to us.

There is a religious element
to every political ideology.

And if you aren't impressed
by the decorum,

especially the youth...

The chairs, covered in leather,
carry the Hohenzollern emblem,

with the motto of the Hohenzollern:
�Nihil sine Deo,�

in English, �Nothing without God.�

This room was used by the royal family

as a dining room till 1944.

We are now reaching the corridor.

Here you can see
several magnificent miniatures,

representing the members
of the royal family.

At one point, I was contacted
by some real Resistance fighters.

At that time, they were looking
for people who wanted to fight.

It's true, I have no excuse.

I had several opportunities
to join the active Resistance.

My idea at the time, the idea of my youth,

was that only two ideologies existed
which could change the world.

One which had already changed
the world, Marxism,

and the other,
which was National Socialism.

Does it bother you
if we say that, roughly speaking,

in 1941 you were a young Fascist?

No, it's true.

You were on the side
that wasn't at risk of any persecution.

Were you particularly proud
of being on that side,

seeing how France was at the time?

It's good that you bring up
the problem of persecution.

It was unavoidable, and it is something
I consider very important.

I won't pretend that I didn't know. I knew.

I knew they were arresting Jews.
That's true.

But I can assure you
that I never imagined that it ended in...

� In Auschwitz?
� Never.

You thought it simply meant
they were outcast from society?

I knew that they were sent to camps.

But at that time,
there were many prisoners.

There were 2,000,000
French prisoners of war in Germany.

Between a political prisoner
and a prisoner of war,

for me, I didn't think
there was any difference.

Let's come out and say it.

If France wants to remain
a major European and world player,

if France wants to remain
worthy of Europe,

we must join the fight against Bolshevism.

It's our only solution.

Both occupied and non-occupied zones
plan to fight Bolshevism.

Defeating Bolshevism will unite Europe.

There were recruitment offices
across France.

We must not try to deny
that decrees were signed.

I know that today
people are disgusted by us.

The policy of the Vichy people,

who incidentally have all joined
majority groups since the Liberation,

is to explain the situation by saying that

extreme Gaullism and
extreme Communism were dangerous,

and so were we,

we, the fans of collaboration,
the bloodthirsty.

When did you realize
the reality of the German military?

For me, the reality lay
in the officer schools of the Waffen S.S.

It was brand new, very unique,
there was a mythology to it.

It made us smile,
and at the same time we admired them.

With our Latin background,
we discovered German mythology,

oaths taken between chains,

definitions like
�My honor is called fidelity,�

and other things which fascinated us.

Once a Frenchman, always a Frenchman,

even when faced with such convictions.

When the Germans realized this,
they wouldn't take us seriously.

Did you get along with the Germans?
What did you call them?

Krauts.

I don't know one single Frenchman

from the Charlemagne Division
who didn't...

Relations were hostile?

Yes. Most of us called Hitler �Big Julius.�

That was typical of the French.
They called him �Big Julius.�

Was the foreign Waffen S.S.
A European army?

We played a part,
if you allow me to use the word,

in the defeat.

And that makes you realize
that a European army only really existed

in people's imaginations.

All I know about the defeat

is that the Germans had reserved us
a choice spot

when the Eastern front crumbled,

when Rokossovski and Joukov divided up
the German border

into several different pieces.

When this all occurred,
the Germans rushed, I do mean rushed,

the foreign Waffen S.S. Troops
into these areas.

I strongly suspect
that they were already trying

to get rid of something
that made them look bad,

that might hinder future negotiations.

Did you have any contact
with the German people?

Yes, of course, and that is
one of my strongest memories of the time.

As we were going to face the Russians,

we met the exodus of refugees.
It was worse than in 1940.

All of Eastern Prussia
and part of Pomerania

were trying to take refuge
in central Germany.

What would they say to you?

What would they say to us?

They offered us their daughters.

They preferred to give them to us
than see them raped by the Russians.

We saw the Germans withdrawing,

and we were there
to protect their withdrawal.

It was something new in history,

and it was quite funny.

It was one of the things
that made us laugh,

although the threat of the Russians
made it somewhat less funny.

They were still giving out medals.
Were you awarded anything?

Yes.

What? An iron cross?

Yes, first and second class.

Bearing in mind
what you learned in the last war,

the results of National Socialism,

which, as you explained,

had a certain appeal or charm about it
at one point in your life,

bearing this in mind,

would you change
the choices made at that time?

Yes, of course.

I think only an idiot would refuse
to change their opinion.

But I can only speak for myself.

I have changed, but that's me.

Young people have asked me
what I think about their commitment.

It's always interesting, fascinating,

because commitment
always brings on change,

but sometimes this change
has dramatic consequences.

So I advise people to be cautious.

Are you a liberal?
Are you afraid of ideologies?

A bit.

Actually, very much.

Personally, I was not physically affected
by the occupation.

They didn't kill my wife or my children.

My friend Menut obviously feels
very differently.

Not only did they take Menut's wife,

they also tortured her,
and tore off her nipples.

They even burned her with a branding iron.

So Menut's state of mind is
completely different.

Her back was raw with whip marks.

� How did you find out?
� I was told by Mrs. Michelin

who was in the same cell as my wife.

I believe her name was Mrs. Jean Michelin.

There was also Mrs. Martineau
from Volvic.

One of them helped me
identify the body, saying,

�I'm sure those are her slippers,

�I made them for her
before they shot her to death.�

� You didn't recognize her at first?
� No.

They had buried her without...

Without a coffin.

She was still alive when they buried her.

She was in a coma from being whipped
when they took her,

and nobody had the decency
to finish her off.

They kicked her and punched her.

It was one of the executioners himself

who told me
that he shoved a broomstick up her vagina.

Some people blamed us, others didn't.

It depended on whether or not
their father or son had died during the war,

or been taken prisoner in Germany.

Those people were obviously angry at us.

They thought we mistreated
the prisoners in Germany.

But that wasn't true.
But that's what they said.

I was taken prisoner by the Maquis
and in October 1944,

I was taken to Clermont-Ferrand
to be interned

in a camp near the station.

I got off the train at 10:00 a.m.,

and as I was injured,
I'd been tied to my stretcher.

I stayed like that all day on the platform.

This is the station.

This is the main building.

This is the platform,
and the camp was across from it.

That evening, some nurses fetched me
with a wheelbarrow.

During the day, many civilians came
and stared at me lying there.

Some of them spit on me.

Then there were others
who seemed to take pity on my state.

What were you thinking?

How did you feel lying there
on the platform in Clermont station?

I felt it wasn't very decent
of the people there.

It was disgusting, actually.

They should have realized

that we could have done the same
to their father or son. Then what?

So you were tied up?

Yes, and I was unable to move.

It was a shame, as I knew Clermont
like the back of my hand,

and I could have hidden.
I had a girlfriend in Saint-C�saire.

And that's where you would have hidden?

Probably.

In any case, she was a very nice girl,

who wasn't against the Germans
and was pretty to boot.

The beauty who slept
with the king of Prussia,

With the king of Prussia,

Had her hair shaved clean off,

Her hair shaved clean off.

Her weakness for �Ich liebe dich,�

For �Ich liebe dich,�

Has cost her the price of a wig,

The price of a wig.

The sans-culottes
and the Phrygian caps,

The Phrygian caps,

Handed their hair
over to a dog barber,

To a dog barber.

I ought to have tried
to save her mane,

To save her mane.

I should have spoken out
for her ponytail,

For her ponytail.

It was in August 1944.

I had taken holidays in August
and was visiting my mother,

when a car full of civilians pulled up.

They'd come to get me.

There were flags everywhere
and they all carried machine guns.

I hadn't realized what was up,
as Ch�teaugu� is a quiet village,

but when I arrived in Clermont,
I saw that everyone was abuzz.

People were being arrested
left, right, and center.

I was locked up in a cell
underneath The Poterne,

a public square in Clermont-Ferrand.

There were women
wearing their nightgowns,

or their pajamas,
as they'd been taken in the night.

I didn't know why they'd taken me.

I had really no idea.

We had to stand trial.

Some women came back
from such trials with their heads shaved.

Those were the girls
who dated the Germans.

But, for me, it was...

� You didn't date the Germans?
� Never.

What were you accused of?

I spent an entire month
in the Clermont-Ferrand prison,

before being told why I was there.

On several occasions,
I asked different officers

if they knew
why I had been placed in prison.

When I told them my name,
none understood why I was there.

They told me it might be a mistake,
that I should be patient.

No doubt, they'll let you go.

Now many of them belonged
to the French Resistance army.

Eventually, I found out I'd been jailed
for denouncing a captain,

a friend of mine.

Actually, it was his wife
who was my friend.

They were also locals, about my age.

The Chamali�re Gestapo had intercepted
a denunciation letter,

and that denunciation was the reason
I had been arrested.

So you weren't actually guilty?

No, I wasn't.

Naturally, I denied it.

They came to get me at the prison,

they took me to a building on Lille Square,

and a certain individual
removed all my clothes,

and put me in a bathtub
that was filled with water.

I tried to hold on,
but I was handcuffed from behind.

I turned my head around,
but he punched me on the chin,

So I sank to the bottom of the bathtub.

As I was underwater, I was forced to drink.

They realized
that I was starting to lose strength,

so he grabbed me by the hair,
pulled me out of the water,

stuck two fingers down my throat,
made me throw up,

and asked me if I confessed.
But I wasn't guilty.

And I regretted I hadn't done anything.
It was so horrible.

But who were these people?
You talk about �they� and �he.�

Do you think they were policemen
who had worked for another regime?

I don't know.

� Don't you live in Clermont?
� I never saw these people again.

I think they were people
who got involved in the whole thing

with the sole purpose
of killing other people.

During the occupation,
were you for or against Marshal P�tain?

I supported him.

Why?

I wasn't a politician or anything,
I was just in favor of P�tain.

So how did this happen to you?

A friend was denounced to the Gestapo.

The letter was intercepted
by the Chamali�re Police.

Do you know
who might have imitated your writing?

It was his wife.

� His wife did?
� Yes.

� She was the one who denounced you?
� Yes.

� Excuse me.
� Go ahead.

Now we'll have some privacy.

Do you remember where we stopped off?

I do. So then I asked the captain...

I asked him...

I don't know.

I had to stand trial.

Captain Mury was the first witness.

The judge even said to him,

�I hear your wife enjoys
copying her friends' writing.�

He replied, �Sometimes,
but that means nothing.

�And furthermore,

�the accused woman is using this
to try to make my wife look guilty.�

And when Mrs. Mury took the stand,
he asked her the same question.

She replied, �Never.�

The judge said, �But it's been confirmed.�

She turned to me,
thinking I was the one who'd confirmed it,

and said, �What a memory she has.�

The judge slammed his fist down
and said, �It wasn't her.

�It was your husband who said it.�
And then she began to falter,

saying she only copied
very pretty handwriting.

A murmur passed through the entire court.

There were people there on both sides,
both for and against me,

but they all felt sure
the judge would ask for further inquiry

into how well
she could imitate handwriting.

But he didn't.
And I was sentenced to 15 years.

When you say you had both friends
and enemies in the courtroom,

were these friends and enemies
characterized

by a certain attitude
under the occupation or not?

No, no...

Were your enemies people who claimed
to be Resistance fighters?

Exactly. They weren't
personal enemies or anything.

I supported Marshal P�tain,
and they didn't. Or so I think.

When you were brought
to the room with the bathtub,

did you ever think that before,

at the time when
you generally agreed with the regime,

the same thing happened to the others?

I don't know. I have no idea.

� You say that you were for P�tain.
� Yes.

Was this because you were influenced
by Catholic beliefs?

� No.
� Why was it then?

� Maybe it was...
� Please try to remember.

� Maybe it was because of his ideas.
� Which ideas?

His ideas on the future of France.
I thought he was a great man.

� Do you still think so?
� Yes.

Yes.

You defended many people
accused by those in power at the time,

and at the Liberation, you defended
those accused by the new order.

It might seem odd to the uninformed.

As lawyers,
our job is to defend the accused,

but when politics change,
the accused change too,

depending on which side of the fence
you're on. It was a brutal period.

In the three or four days
after the liberation of Clermont,

out of the 1,200 people arrested,
only 600 were put in prison.

You can imagine
what happened to the other 600.

And those who had trials
then received a very summary justice,

which might as well have been
dispensed with,

considering the atrocious things
being punished.

I attended the trial of three militiamen

who admitted to having arrested
three Resistants,

ripped out their eyes, put bugs in the holes
and sewn up their pupils.

In these cases,
you wonder if a trial is necessary.

It may have been better to shoot them
immediately. Many were shot.

But then, later,
many legal errors were also made, in that,

in a wave of Liberation euphoria,
many innocent people were executed.

However, after a month and a half or so,
they set up official courts,

with a professional judge presiding,

accompanied by a jury,
like the Crown Court.

And I don't think
any further legal errors were made,

if you accept the death penalty
for someone

who denounced a Frenchman
who was taken away and never returned.

Mr. D'Astier,
National Liberation Movement.

May the traitors' heads roll,
because that is justice.

May the property of collaborators,
banks and corporations

who betrayed us be seized,
because that is justice.

Mr. Guyot, Communist Party.

In order for France to be liberated,

every inch of our motherland
must be cleansed

of every Boche and every traitor.

Anthony Eden,
in this interview, generally speaking,

your attitude towards Marshal P�tain
has been rather charitable.

Do you think the sentence
he was given at the Liberation was unfair?

It is not my place to judge whether or not
people's anger was justified.

We haven't been through it,
so we cannot say.

Personally, I was not shocked
when General de Gaulle said,

�We must pay tribute
to the Marshal of Verdun.�

After all, it's a part of France's history,
whether we like it or not.

Sectarianism can't go on forever.

It's not because a man is killed
that the problem will be solved.

They must not be allowed to run free
or to be involved in politics,

but we must not turn them into
possible future heroes.

That's my opinion, but not many Resistants
would agree with it.

How did you arrive at this stage
in which you reject sectarianism?

How do you explain the change of heart?

I know it seems like a sudden change,
but it was because I was scared.

I was scared the whole time.

After the self-sacrificing heroes,
like General Massu,

or the man who... I could never
have committed suicide. I love life.

Born February 6, 1900
Died June 12, 1969

French Resistance Fighter
Military Cross 1939-45

Were you denounced?

Yes, someone denounced me.

I think I know who it was, but...

If he hadn't been denounced,
no one would've found him.

You make me laugh with your questions!

The Krauts didn't denounce�
bad French people did.

Were you ever tempted to seek revenge?

What good would it do?

It is natural that it would be tempting.

When I first came back,
I may have been tempted.

But then I felt it wasn't worth it.

I remember one day at Clermont Police HQ,

a guy said to me, �Do you want
to get revenge? I know who it was.

�If you want revenge,
the boys and I will get him for you,

�but we'll never tell you his name.�

I said, �I already know who did it.�

I told him the name.
He asked, �Who told you?�

�Nobody,� I replied. �I just figured it out.

�So don't bother taking revenge.�

What is it like nowadays,
for someone like you, to have neighbors

in the village or surrounding areas,
who were informers?

How can you live with that?

Do you forget it?

It's something you can't forget.

� So what can you do?
� Nothing.

This is the Iron Cross.

This is the Cross of Merit, with a sword.

This is another one,

the Cross of Merit second class.
It was for hand-to-hand combat.

This was for serving in the East.
We call it �the frozen meat medal,�

and this medal was for being loyal
during four years of war.

I see, a medal for loyalty.

Yes, four years of war.

I'm sure that you're aware that as far as
World War II medals are concerned,

there are many people in Germany
who refuse to wear them,

because they were awarded
by the Nazi state.

Yet you don't hesitate
in wearing them in dress costume.

Yes, some people feel uncomfortable.

But if you look at these people,

you see they're generally
men who never fought,

men who weren't soldiers,
who didn't deserve any medals.

You think that they don't wear them
simply because they have none?

That's right.

Nowadays, they're redistributing medals.

What's the difference
between a medal then and a medal now?

�The worm was in the fruit,�
as we say here in Bavaria.

We're not stupider than anyone else,

and yet we lost the war.

Nowadays we have to wonder
if we're not better off like this.

After all, if we had won,
Hitler may have continued,

and where would that leave us today?

Perhaps we'd be occupying
some country in Africa or America.

As I said, I was on a motorcycle mission.

In my pocket, I had a Beretta pistol
my friend Bessoux had given me.

I don't think it was a gift,
he just wanted to get rid of it.

He was afraid.

So there I am with a gun in my pocket,

when, where the road bends
toward Ravin Blanc,

all of a sudden, what do I see?
The Germans had passed me,

and there is this old Boche,

a doddering pale old man,
shaking like a leaf, in need of a haircut,

in a tattered uniform,
whose motorcycle had broken down.

So he tells me to pull over
by making signs like these.

There he is, only seven feet away,
and there I am, a gun in my pocket.

I wanted to shoot one myself
before it ended.

So I look at him closely. What do I see?

There he is,
dolman buttoned up to the neck,

looking so fat
that he might actually explode.

I felt that killing a pig
wasn't very challenging.

So I let the whole thing drop.

He started chatting,
but I don't understand a word of German.

I said goodbye and took off.
I don't know what became of him.

That's what I wanted to tell you.

Had you killed him,
would you feel remorse?

I would feel remorse,
and you must not forget that,

even if I didn't kill him,
I did think about killing him.