All language subtitles for Copia de Between Two Worlds(1)

Hello welcome to the fourth annual Bronx Book
Festival presented by The Bronx is Reading.

My name is Leah Clark and my pronouns are she and
hers. I'm one of the co-chairs for the Bronx Book

Festival kid lit committee. I'm thrilled
to introduce this panel. You're tuning into

Between Two Worlds: Young Adult Fantasy.
This panel is moderated by Lilliam Rivera.

Lilliam Rivera is an award-winning writer and
author of the young adult novels Never Look Back,

Dealing in Dreams, The Education of Margo Sanchez.
Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Elle,

Lenny Letter, Tin House, Nightmare Magazine,
and Magazine for Fantasy & Science Fiction, to

name just a few. Lilliam grew up in the Bronx and
currently lives in Los Angeles. You can find her

at www.lilliamrivera.com and at @lilliamrivera on
social media. And now I'll turn it over to Lilliam

to introduce our other panelists. Hi Lilliam. Hi
uh good morning, good afternoon. Really happy to

be here. And um okay so we're going to start
off introducing our amazing amazing panelists

um. First off let's uh have Roseanne A Brown come
in. And Roseanne A. Brown is an immigrant from the

West African nation of Ghana and a graduate of the
University of Maryland, where she completed the

Jiménez-Porter Writers’ House program. Her work
has been featured by Voice of America, among other

outlets. Her debut novel, A Song of Wraiths and
Ruin, was an instant New York Times bestseller.

The final book in the duology, A Psalm of Storms
and Silence, will be published in November

2021. We can't wait. She currently lives outside
Washington, DC. You can visit her online at

www.rosannebrown.com.

And, hi Roseanne. And our next uh panelist is. Hi.
(laughter). Namina. I know I just asked her this.

Namina Forna. Namina Forna has an MFA in
film and TV production from USC School of

Cinematic Arts and a BA from Spelman College.
She works as a screenwriter in LA. Hello LA.

And loves telling stories stories with
fierce female leads. We all love that.

The Gilded Ones is her first novel, her
debut, and you can visit her on Twitter

at @NaminaForna and on Instagram at namina
period forna (@namina.forna). I always

want to roll the Rs. But she's here, hello,
hello. Hello, are you, come on on. Hi guys.

And our our final finalist. Final finalist? No,
our panelist is Jordan Ifueko. She grew up under

a blanket fort, eating fried plantains and reading
comic books uh. Eventually she switched to comics

for, she switched the comics for tea-stained
notebook. She now lives in LA, another LA person,

with her husband David and their collection of
Black Panther Funko Pops. Her latest is Raybearer,

uh the sequel to her New York Times best-selling
debut Redemptor which just just came out. And

she's hot off of uh the Nebulas which were
which were last night. So um Jordan come on on,

come on in come on in to (laughter). Hi there.
Yeah I just want to add I think that's an old bio

um. So Redemptor comes out this August, August
17th. Raybearer was also an instant New York

Times bestseller. It's also a finalist for both
this year's Nebula and this year's Hugo Lodestar.

So good thank you forget it yes get get all that
and thank you so much for uh clarifying it because

we we want you to get all the props thank you and
so this is the panel for uh between two worlds

young adult fantasy um before we begin what I
would love to do and um is to just have you each

just sort of give us your the pitch of you
of this of the novel that you're that you're

promoting that you're you know that you want to
talk about today and just you know are the quick

pitch for someone who maybe haven't picked
it up yet who haven't devoured them yet or

about to devour them when they come out. So
uh Roseanne, do you want to start us off?

Every time. (laughter) Sure okay. So hi, I'm
Roseanne A. Brown. Everyone calls me Rosie.

And I'm author of A Song of
Wraith and Ruin, very green book.

So A Song of Wraith and Ruin takes place in
a world inspired by West African folklore

and it follows two protagonists, a princess
named Karina and a refugee named Malik.

It's when Malik's younger sister is kidnapped
by a vengeful spirit, he strikes a deal that

in order to win his sister's freedom he has to
kill Karina, the crown princess of the land.

So he enters a competition for her hand in
marriage in order to get close to her to kill her.

However, however, he doesn't know that Karina's
mother, the queen, has just been assassinated and

she discovered a forbidden spell that will bring
her mother back to life, but to do so she needs

to sacrifice the heart of the king. So she set up
this entire competition just to find some dude,

kill him, and then use his body to bring her mom
back to life. So he's trying to kill her, she's

trying to kill him, neither of them are aware
of this and so the book is about the way they

sort of plot around each other. It's duplicated so
you see both sides of it and about how when they

actually meet and they realize they have a more in
common than they want to and everything just goes

off the rails. So yeah, Wraith came out last
summer and the sequel will be out this November.

And the sequel, it's one of those books like,
I can't talk about without spoiling the whole

first book, but basically things were wild
Book One and they get even wilder Book Two.

And I've gotten many screaming crying texts
about it so I hope just continues that trend.

That's what you want, you always want the
second one to be even worse, you know, like

high stakes. Just just just everything just throw
everything at the wall until you break the wall.

That's the goal. Jordan, do you want to continue?
Yes mostly just to scream, but Rosie why do I not

have a copy of Psalms in my grubby mitts. I was
one of the screaming texts about the first book.

I can send it to you, I can make it happen. Okay
okay please do. Anyway um I wrote Raybearer and

the sequel Redemptor, like Rosie, is one that I
can't go into a lot without loads of spoilers,

but Raybearer is the story of a magically hewn
Pangaea mega-continent ruled by an emperor who is

rumored to be divine because for every person he
anoints to his sacred council with which he rules,

he becomes immune to one kind of death until his
council is complete and he is immune to every

death except old age. The catch is that anyone
he anoints to his counsel can still murder him,

so he's not immune to them. And in order to
maintain security and make sure that they never

turn against him, the emperor and his descendants
anoint their councils when they are all still

children so they grow up together. They grow
physically ill if they spend any time apart. They

have they have a mental bond called um that that's
called the ray, that's why he's a raybearer. And

our protagonist is a young girl named Tarisai who
is sent to the capital of this massive empire to

be selected within a competition to be part of
the next emperor's council. The catch is that

she's actually sent there as a plant to murder the
future emperor and she doesn't know why. She just

obeys her mother completely. Her mother has raised
her in isolation, forbid people from touching her,

so she's love starved, she's friendship starved.
And she arrives at the capitol and the prince,

she immediately has a heart bond with and she's
not sure why. Although the story does not go in

the direction that you think it will, I know what
you're thinking if you haven't read it. It doesn't

um it's a story about identity, it's a story about
magic and friendships and choosing your own name.

And Redemptor again can't say a lot without
spoiling, but it is also about friendship. It's

also about what happens when your found family
doesn't grow at the same rate that you do. Once

you have discovered your purpose, once you've
discovered um what your calling is, and you have

social justice concerns and you're determined
to make the world better, but all of your

friends are kind of content with the way things
always have been. And that's really isolating,

even when they love you and you love them um.
Also she has to like literally descend into hell

and defeat manifestations of death, side note.
So that's The Raybearer duology. You know, just

a regular teenager stuff that we all do. Mommy
issues, you know um. Do you want to continue?

Sorry no Naima. Oh um hi guys uh my name
is Naima. I am the author of, oh goodness,

The Gilded Ones, which is both uh an Indie
and a New York Times bestseller um. So

we'll just leave that there uh. So basically The
Gilded Ones um is a young adult fantasy that's set

in an extremely patriarchal um
sort of African-inspired world

um and it is uh. And in this world there's a
group of girls who are considered demons because

they're faster and stronger than
regular people and they bleed gold,

but then actual demons come into this world and
the humans are like, wait a minute. We sort of

kind of need these girls to kill off these demons
because they're all strong and fast and whatever

um. So they offer the girls a choice: fight or
die. My main character Deka decides to fight and

in doing so goes on an adventure that changes
her entire life um. Basically what I would say

about this book it's it's if the Amazons um are
sorry like if the Amazons have Wonder Woman or the

Dora Malaje of Black Panther, we're stuck in the
world of The Handmaid's Tale and we're like ,burn

everything to the ground. So that's The Gilded
Ones. I mean amazing, just all over, all around.

So I, you know, I wanted to, I had wanted to talk
after listening to all the all the uh the pitches,

I really actually want to
talk about the idea of writing

action because everything that you were talking
about it was just like, and I had to kill someone

and, you know, how to burn things down and it's,
you know, and it's warriors and it's, you know. So

tell me just just the idea of what was it like to
just create, you know, these kind of action-packed

scenes in your in your young adult. I mean, did
you do you know what kind of research are you are

you, you know, into? Combat fighting or like did
you do Youtube searches like I have done? And um

you know, just tell me a little bit of what that
would have what what was that research process

look looking like? Um let me Namina, do you want
to start this off because you were talking about

that um. So basically when I first started uh
getting the idea for The Gilded Ones uh, one of

the touchstones was 300. Back when I got the idea
there weren't really any movies or books where it

was like a group of girls fighting against like
an oppressor. And I wanted sort of that that

that feeling of camaraderie, of kickass, of just,
you know, like that buildup of like when you're

walking onto a battlefield, armor gleaming,
swords, like I wanted all of that. So like

um for to write The Gilded Ones, and
by the way I'm a screenwriter so like

for me a lot of times when I'm writing books,
I'm using movies and TV shows as a reference.

So when I was writing The Gilded Ones, I was
looking at 300 and Spartacus. Spartacus Blood

and Sand as a reference. And I'm like, oh this
is how you create an action scene. This is what

it looks like? This is, you know, this is what
you can do like for research. I watch a lot of

I watched a lot of fight movies and um I
also did a ton of research on uh pre-colonial

African weapons because I wanted to make sure that
since this was a book that is set in a fictional

like um you know ancient African world um that
the weapons made sense. But like of course like

all of that has like like you can learn that,
but like in terms of the actual writing of it,

um I just tried to follow through with the
emotions of what the characters were feeling like

in the moment as they go into battle. Because
I think battle scenes can very easy easily

become too complicated. So yeah. This is true.
Jordan, you want to talk about how you created?

Sure so the interesting thing about The Raybearer
series is that there is very little violence,

like there are very violent scenes, but
they are sudden and traumatic and quick

and that's on purpose um. The Raybearer is
purposely about a bunch of you know like black,

brown, there are some white children, teenagers
within this empire who are catapulted to the upper

echelons of society very quickly. They're revered
as gods and goddesses and demi-kings and queens

and they are navigating having all of this
responsibility put on them and trying to enjoy it.

They're told to enjoy it. They're told you are the
luckiest people in the world. But then the reality

of what that means when people's actual lives
on the line is something they are not prepared

for. So, you know, they'll be you know laughing
with hair braiding parties and court intrigue

and you know. And Tarisai, in the meantime even
though she has been sent there to kill someone,

it is very involuntary. She doesn't want to do
it. She uses a magical power of her own to make

herself forget that she was even supposed to do
it. So it's almost like this kind of like The

Quiet Place / Alfred Hitchcock kind of tension.
Those are very different stories than Raybearer,

Raybearer is not like that, except you know
that there's this death coming, you know,

that there's this attack coming and so all of the
like glamour and friendship and cuddles and warmth

all seems just like more and more like like it
just like builds the tension until this moment

where you're just like, she's going to remember
and she isn't going to be able to help herself

and it'll be quick and it'll be violent and it'll
rock her entire world. So for me I guess that's my

like cop out answer for at least the first book
um. There are there is like again some other

sudden violent sequences like, they're not
expecting an attack from the underworld and,

but it's almost because they're not prepared um.
It's not so much like, and then we had to roll out

the battle plan and like cohort one goes forward
and cohort two, and I had to use my mad sword

skills. Instead it's just like, oh god oh god oh
god, peasants are dying. I don't know what to do.

It's because we missed a sacrifice. So um
those are the kind of scenes I prefer to write.

I did do research for some technical things
because there are some characters that are

fighters. My husband um fights jiu jitsu and so I
definitely, he'd be telling me about some of his

training sessions and I'd definitely be like
definitely be like, say that again but slower

so I can use that um. Yeah the
second book does have a battle

um, like a battle of basically the continent with
the demons of the underworld. But interestingly

Tarisai is not present. She sees it
through the memories of someone else

while she is in hell taking care of other stuff,
like literal hell. So um yeah I am probably the

least qualified person here to talk about like the
logistics of like real hand-on-hand combat writing

um, but that is the tone I tend to
take with violent scenes in my books.

That's awesome. And uh Roseanne, you wanna talk
about your your little research in the combat? So

I'll be complete, like I'm primarily a romance
author so I'm all like, feelings, everyone hold

her, and it's like my idea like a big tense scene
is like, oh god the secret's coming out. So like

action, it's also not my forte, I'll be completely
real, but however I think when I start to turn the

corner on like how to actually like, work action
into my work because when I really start thinking

like Namina mentioned, like a good action scene
has emotional relevance to the characters and

it's not about the literal like kind of stab stab
fight, but the actual sort of like the emotional

undercurrent of what the fight itself means. The
stakes of it to the people involved and all that.

And one author whose work I sort of read a
lot to understand that, Fonda Lee Jade City,

first off just one of the best books of all time,
which is like the way she makes every single fight

scene like just written beautifully, choreographed
beautifully, because she herself is an actual

martial artist. But like the way she made the
fights emotionally relevant to each character and

like you were really feeling like every single
blow, every single thing, because you knew how

much it meant. I think that was when I like read
her work and I understood I'm like oh, something

clicked like, ah this is how you make a fight
scene not suck. Wow um, and so so within the world

of Wraith itself it's like Wraith is a it's one
thing I've discovered mostly from reader reactions

is Wraith is more violent than I thought it was
cause I was like, oh it's not that bad. Then

people be like what are you talking about? Like
oh yeah, but like it's definitely not like kind of

like combat because. very intentionally Malik and
Karina, neither of them are very combat trained.

They both do have certain skill sets they do have
certain powers and things get pretty bloody, but

like neither of them are fighters which is what
makes the whole sort of like "I have to kill you"

thing an extra level of difficulty because like
many of them actually know how to kill another

person um. And so I think for me the action and
the violence then became a kind of thing like,

okay what does it actually mean to ask violence of
someone from from someone who's not accustomed to

it for someone who doesn't naturally do that. Who
hasn't trained for that? And especially because

the world itself is actually a pretty hyper
violent world and so both of them have suffered

immensely from the effects of it, but like they
themselves have not committed it. So like when the

trauma of that, the lingering kind of residue of
when that happens, so the action it just kind of

became a way to sort of get into their own heads
and make them think how are they processing that

they've world they've been forced to grow up in
and like how are they moving through that. And so

I guess yeah, every everyone go read Jade
City by Fonda Lee, that's the answer.

Well I I love that you mentioned that uh Fonda
Lee's book because I, that's one of my questions

is really you know, some some writers will not
read uh within their genre. They don't want to

take their stuff, you know, or copy or take their
stuff. But I you know, I'm a firm believer that

you have to read broadly and read whatever will
help you, you know, uh inform your writing. That

will help you. So uh besides um Fonda Lee's
book, were there any other research books

that you were like grabbing towards when you
were when you were create creating this world?

Me specifically, oh okay um like a hundred percent
like I'm a big bel- you know that phrase like um

what's it called, but like steal like an artist.
I'm a big believer in that, like everything that

sort of resonated with me, I'm understanding why
is this resonating with me you know, like what

is this I am being drawn to. So like when I was
coming to Wraiths, the different things like I

love romance, I love like fairy tales, I like that
atmosphere. I'm like I want a fairy tale romantic

atmosphere. Pluck that, um An Ember in the Ashes
is one of my favorite YA series of all time,

the tension, the scope, the breadth of it. I'm
like okay big strong world, let me yoink that

um. Like just so not necessarily like the book
itself because I definitely believe like even

when you have a lot of similar base tropes, the
execution makes every story different. So like the

idea that like what is pulling to you as a like
as a reader or as a like consumer of this media

is what is calling to you as an artist and creator
yourself. So yeah there's definitely general folk

tales, um An Ember in the Ashes was a big one for
me um. The False Prince Jennifer Nielsen because

that book, just the way she keeps you on a razor's
edge the entire book. I think it just blew my mind

completely. I was like, oh my god how do you
even do that? So False Prince was a big one. And

my mind is kind of like potato mush at
the moment because I know there's more,

but like, I got the inspiration, I started
Wraith maybe five years ago and I'm just like,

I can barely think back to what I had for
breakfast. But those are like the first ones

that come to mind is like I saw those I was
like, wow what I'm being drawn to is things

I want to replicate in my own work even if it's
not necessarily the exact way this author does it.

Well I, thank you, I'd love to hear uh Namina,
because I know you mentioned that you're a

screenwriter. Were there movies or or TV that you
were, I know you mentioned, also talked about 300

or were there books that you were like taking out
that you were like, okay this is going to help me

with The Gilded Ones when I'm working on it? So
honestly I'm one of those writers who does not

read in my genre when I'm writing in my genre um
and I say this with the caveat like I'm a massive

reader and I read everything and growing up I used
to read at least eight books per week every single

week, mostly fantasy like you know. A lot of young
adult, a lot of middle grade, but really anything

that I could get my hands on. And I think that's
sort of what is necessary in order for you to

um be a writer, it's like you need to be widely
read. Like I still wake up every morning and

I read like multiple articles and all these
things just to sort of get my mind clicking, but

because I sort of already have that in my
background um I sort of I already have a

process where I have my research time. So like
before I write a book typically it takes like a

year where um I'm just like reading anything that
might be of interest. So like for The Gilded Ones

I was doing like research on what does this world
look like because I wanted to rest my book on a

firm basis of what um pre-colonial Africa actually
looked like. So um I was reading um books like um,

what is it called, pre-colonial Africa like uh
my goodness, Cheikh Anta Diop, he writes like um,

he's this guy who writes or rather wrote um about
pre-colonial Africa um and so like I basically

like read all his books about what that looked
like um. But also I was watching a lot of like

I wrote like I had the idea for The Gilded Ones
a long time ago so I was watching a lot of stuff

like 300 and um Spartacus and like that to me
just really helped me figure out like how to

weave the story how to put in violence because The
Gilded Ones is a very violent book. There are a

lot of fight scenes, a lot of action sequences,
and also um the thing is like the girls uh the

magical girls in my book um it's very hard to kill
them. They resurrect. So there's a lot of just um

very aggressive violence going on basically yeah
yeah. I kind of love it. (laughter) And Jordan,

what about you? Was there any you know,
movie or a book that you were like, oh yeah

Yes absolutely. I'm just going to caveat and
say that Rosie and Namina are two of my favorite

authors, so there's going to be a portion of my
responses that are just responding to their stuff.

Gilded Ones is so good guys, that's so good.
You guys should read it um. What uh one of my

favorite quotes um, it's by W H Auden, he, it's
some..., I'm gonna bungle it, but it's something

to the effect of "many authors worry about
originality which is worthless and confuse it with

authenticity which is something everyone should
aspire for." So for me, like Namina, I grew up

with stacks and stacks and stacks of books. I was
actually homeschooled until high school, so books

were my lifeline. Loads and loads of fantasy.
Favorite authors of mine, a big one is Gail Carson

Levine who writes a lot of middle grade fantasies
about different kinds of girls. She's wonderful.

And on the flip side another of my favorite
authors, I read Jane Eyre for the first time

when I was 11, and you know a lot of like really
old dead white authors. Always problems that,

you know, you unpack later. But one thing I still
to this day love about all of the Brontë sisters

is that they tend to write stories about girls
who are isolated and lonely, but hold on to their

agency and their identities with white knuckles.
Like nothing is going to take it away from them.

And I related to that so much being a lonely
homeschooled Black girl with a very strong sense

of justice and identity. And so all of my heroines
tend to play with that a lot, especially Tarisai

in Raybearer. So those were big influences
when writing Raybearer. I had to depend on

so many sources of research, it is so hard to
find...because it's set in a Yoruba-coded head of

empire. It actually spans 13 culturally distinct
realms, everything from the Yoruba to the Joseon

period of Korea, to Mayan, you know, the height
of Mayan culture. All of these different realms

are coded to specific people-groups in a real
world, but it's a fantasy version of them

and so some places were really easy to find
sources on like you know there's a part that's

based on kind of the what eventually became
France, you know, medieval France used to be

loads and loads of different regions, um and
so that was easy right, but with west Africa,

the Yoruba they had these enormous
spanning empires, intricate trade systems,

castles, palaces, you name it, but because a
lot of the history that survived, the written

records that survived, were by colonizers, you had
to sift through so much crap, so much racist crap.

And I still, because of the limited sources
that were available like I did find west African

scholars who wrote on it. But even their
ability to research is somewhat limited to

what records are there because west Africa west,
African civilizations, they did have very rich

record-keeping traditions, but a lot of it was
oral. Raybearer talks about griots. Griots were

these geniuses. They had to be like historians,
musicians, storytellers, poets, and they would

just condense hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
of years of history into these intricate

epic stories that they would memorize and pass
on to the next griot, who would then like add

their own stories to it for whatever region
and royal family they were cataloging um.

Wonderful griots exist to this day, but
again it's hard for a the daughter of

Nigerian immigrants in Los Angeles to get access
to that that level of detail right um. And while,

you know, visiting my relatives in Nigeria would
have been an option, like just especially this

last year when I wanted to do more research, COVID
happened. So there's that. Anyway all that to say

um I did do lots of research for the different
cultures and I do when I'm like really in the

heart of something, I do tend to avoid reading
things that might be even a little bit similar,

but again I try not to beat myself up over having
other influences, even contemporary influences,

because I know that my voice is my voice and my
stories are my stories, you know. Like one of the

laziest pieces of criticism for other pieces of
work that I hate hearing, like when someone sees

a movie and they're just like, oh I didn't like
it because it was like this other movie. And then

when you asked them what it had in common it's
just like plot elements that are like in so many

stories and I'm just like guys, like that those
movies are completely different. Just because they

both happen to have this element in particular
in common doesn't mean they aren't really good

stories, you know, like if you really unpacked all
stories that would probably come down to like 12

main plot tropes that are just done millions and
millions of times over and that's fine um. So

that's my complicated response to influences and
writing. I I love it um so I there's something

I do I guess a lot of you had touched upon is
like and I'm curious, did you guys create like

an extensive world bible or did you did you just
throw it out there and see what's up, you know?

Because to me whenever I'm even writing any, and
I've never even written like heavy fantasies as

you guys have done, is that I'm always like,
I don't even know if I'm repeating the names

like, I'm like, do I let me just write all
the names because I feel like I am repeating

myself. So I mean did you guys did you create a
world bible before, you know, you started off?

And I was like no. Namina, what did
you do? No not at all. I did not um,

basically I wrote outlines um. So I wrote
out like I wrote an outline for book one

and then I wrote like a pitch for book two and
book three because The Gilded Ones is a trilogy

um and so how I guide myself through stuff through
my story is I write an outline and I write pretty

detailed outlines. However there's always room for
um surprise because like all your well-laid plans,

it doesn't matter. Like characters will
always surprise you. Like you'll be writing

and they will make some sort of decision and
you're like, oh well so you chose chaos. This

is great. You have to go back to outline, which
means that you go back and you then re-outline how

um this has sort of, this whatever this character
chose, has rippled through the story um. But yeah,

outlines, outlines are living documents for me. I
just anytime I I add something I'm like, oh this

is going to ripple through this this this. Go back
to my outline and update it and keep it pushing.

Yeah what about you Roseanne? So I have like a
beautiful like 37 page world bible for Wraith.

It has like, it has a table of contents, it
has bookmarks, it has headings, sub headings,

it has a bit, but wait it has it's beautiful.
I have not looked at it once since I made it.

You actually wrote a world bible? And
I don't use it because I'm notorious.

You actually wrote a world bible? Yeah and
I'm notorious for changing my mind at the

drop of a hat. It's actually a problem where
like my editor has said like I'm one of her

authors she's I'm on the only author she knows
who like will toss everything including stuff

that is working and we've definitely had calls
where she's like yo you got rid of this last

draft. I need you to bring this back. Because
I'll just be like I don't like this anymore,

gyeet, and I'll just throw the whole thing on
like Chris, I'm rewriting the whole book sorry.

All this to say because of this when
there's strict world-building rules,

I can't trust myself to follow them because
I'm very much uh like what the scene needs,

what the characters. Like the story is the king,
you know, like I will change the world to fit the

story as needed. However I will also contradict
myself so that means it's about when I revise,

I go back and I'll literally change the detail
to match what I'm trying to do. So this will take

this is not an efficient system by the way.
Y'all out there, I would not recommend this

because it's not very smart way to live your life,
but this is the way I do it because I'm like,

if like with the magic system and Wraith semantic
system is a system based on, that there's seven

different gods. Each god is tied to a day of the
week and so each god is associated with the kind

of magic. So the day of the week you're born
decides your magic. Very simple right? Except

I'm like okay well if you're gonna do this like
this now society that's like separates off the

seven kinds of people. They're all gonna have
seven different associations, they're gonna have

seven different things. I'm like poop now I have
to actually structure my society based on this.

So I had to go back and seed that all in, like
that wasn't intentional. Like you have to go back.

It's like a braid, you know, like you have to
keep reading and being in and it's just like

that was a decision I just made because it felt
cool at that moment. So I'm a big believer that

like it's good to know your own rules, but like be
willing to break them whenever you want as long as

the end product like it has to be consistent.
The end product needs to make sense,

but I I don't want to like pigeon
hole myself too much because I'm like,

oh but my bible said do this. I'm like, my bible
is essentially a door stop right now. I don't know

what's in there. I don't know, Malik and
Karina might not be in there, who knows?

They need to be in there
and they need to kiss a lot.

You know what they might be. It's 37 pages,
that's a lot of time I don't know that's a

whole separate book, that's like a whole like
someone would want to read that as a companion.

Jordan, do you I mean do you have a 37 page uh
world? Okay so Raybearer I started in its earliest

earliest iterations of the world when I was
13 years old um, so that process is unlike

any other process I will have for any other
books including the sequel to it. I wrote

Raybearer in about 13 years I guess more
like 12 years and I wrote Redemptor,

I had to write the first draft within 9
months, that's just how deadlines work

um. So Raybearer was just something that I
chipped away at because it's the book on which

in which I learned how to write a book right? It
grew up with me. Every time I learned something

new about myself, about writing about my beliefs,
I would write Raybearer again um, I would just go

back to beginning start over um. And so it looks
so different than, you know with very few things

in common except that one element of the like
best friends mentally bonded for life that loyalty

um. With Redemptor I tried to be
as you know I tried to be the best

Hermione girl possible because I thought "I have
nine months, I'm going to be the most organized in

the world. I'm going to have a beautiful outline
which I will submit to my publisher. I will write

this many words a day. Today it'll be fabulous."
Everything fell apart. I wrote the outline. I did,

it looks so different. I had all of these
different plots that are did not make it into

the book um. Characters look different, some
characters are gone (laughter) like just it's

you know all of your carefully laid plans will
you know combust into flames but that's okay.

Because in the end as soon as you have words on
the page, for me that's the hard part is starting

with a blank document. If I have 200,000 words
and I only can end up using about 70,000 of them

and then I need to write 20,000 more, that's
still easier for me than starting with a blank

page. Because editing while it's hard, while it's
brutal, I can just be in the weeds of words I've

already written all day. Rearranging, adding,
subtracting um. That's when I really get in the

zone. So that's my process. I hope that answers
the question. Yeah it does, I love that. It's all

very, there is no in like uh the perfect way to
go into the story. There's also just it's just

remembering who your characters are,
which I think basically everyone said,

it's like it all comes to the character and what
they're going to do and they're going to surprise

you um. We're unbelievably almost out of time
which is, I just started, I just feel like we

just started um, but I do want to ask you,
and I know that as authors we almost never

have any control when it comes to the covers,
but I really would love, like everyone's cover

in this on this panel, all of your covers are
so beautiful and so like. I've been like in

awe of the covers that have been coming out in
the YA, but definitely in the fantasy sphere,

has been like so out of control, so beautiful.
Did you guys have any kind of input or was there

something that you specifically did not want
to have? Like not like that you were like you

got the sketch or you got the illustration, you're
like "no." Or maybe you were like, can we put this

in you know? Was there something that maybe came
up, but it really. Let's start with uh The Gilded

Ones which I ma uh gorgeous. Um I love this cover
so much because uh growing up, I never got to see

a cover like this featuring a Black girl. And to
like see that like this is the image for my book,

it's like amazing I still can't believe
it. Um my cover artist is Johnny Tarajosu.

I I think he did such a phenomenal job
and like the funny thing is um, I actually

didn't want a cover like this,
you know. Like I had this idea

that The Gilded Ones um is so ominous so it should
be like a black book you know gold words dripping,

gold blood like just very very ominous. And
my editor was like, coo- coo- cool, pump your

breaks here girl. I have an idea um, there's
this artist. Let's look at him. And I was like,

sure whatever right? And so then she shows me
this picture and I am like holy crap. I'm over

the moon. There's the only note that I had on
this was like there was something like a zipper

on it and I was like oh can we remove that? Like
that's like the and like and it wasn't even that

I was just literally trying to find something, but
there wasn't really anything. Like this is just

the most beautiful cover I've ever seen, like I
love it so much. Yeah it's gorgeous. Roseanne,

what about you? Was there anything that you were
like, okay? So when we started the cover process,

I'm a quadruple Virgo, this is
important because they're like,

hey do you have any notes? I was like actually
and I had gave them a ten page document of notes

and stuff. Like color suggestions, all this and
like two pages of it were like things I'm like,

can we steer away from this? And I specifically
wrote "I'm not a fan of YA books with like girls

in a dress on the cover. I think it's overdone."
And I'm like could we just avoid that? I just like

not my thing. And they're like, okay. And then
they come back a couple weeks later, they're like

so about that. Um we're going girl with a dress. I
was like, okay y'all this is your job. Okay let's

do it and then they got Tawny Chatmon um she is a
mixed media photographer based in, she's actually

based here in the um DMV area, and she like does
photography. Then she like paints and like does

all these things on it. And she's done work for
Beyoncé and stuff like she's she knows her

stuff. And they when I saw the thing I was
like, also it was green. Like when they're

like what color did you associate with the
book, I'm like red, like don't like kind of

like you said no no like, red darkness is
like intense. All that stuff. They're like,

would you like a leprechaun green book? And I
was like um not really, but they're like too bad.

I'm making, it's not awfu. Like they're actually
really, really friendly about it, but like just

like it's just so funny thinking like you have a
certain image of your work and your thing in your

head and like a part of publishing is sort of
trusting your team that ,like they know the

market, they know that they like, they know. And
like the way they interpret it isn't always the

way you would have, but then when I saw the final
um cover and just really getting to see I'm like,

you know what the dress works like the dress,
really highlights like this, is a romance,

its a fantasy romance. It kind of uh gives that
sense of like intrigue, gets that sense of like

majesty I'm like okay y'all were right I'm sorry
I made you read the 10 page document, but so all

that to say like yeah this is actually the exact
kind of cover I didn't ask for and I love it.

I love that, like everything that's been
overdone, has never been overdone with

Black girls. Because I was so happy to see
the cover of your book because I don't see

Black girls and dresses on the covers of books
and I needed that as a teen and as a little girl.

That's true like I definitely agree. Especially
the sequel, too, because we got to add Malik to

the sequel and then we I might don't quote me on
this but might be one of the first live fantasy

with like a Black boy model on the cover and so
we haven't been able to find another one so it's

been very that's been it's been really cool seeing
the reaction to that. But I think I just because I

thought it was like froo froo, like why I couldn't
dress up froo froo. I was like I want froo froo.

I hear you, I'm a very free-free
person so I'm biased. (laughter)

And Jordan what about you? I had a wonderful
experience um with the cover um. Abrams

like color and and illustration tends to be their
wheelhouse. They're kind of a middle grade and

kids book giant, so YA books you know it was
they're a little bit rare at Abrams. And so

um I from the get-go, all I said is look, her
skin needs to be as dark, darker than mine.

Because as a little girl when Black girls were
present they, I learned very quickly they needed

to be two to three shades lighter than me, if
not more. They needed to have loose curly hair,

not like kinky 4C, you know, um, and I needed that
representation. They were very responsive to that

note um. The artist is Charles Chaisson. I want to
call him Charlie because that's what I call him in

chat. And he did a lot of research. You can't see
maybe over camera, but each of each of the colors

in this background, they're textured fabrics from
the cultures on which the realms in The Raybearer

empire are based. So you have some west African,
you have some south African, you have some like

um Han Chinese, you have some Korean. It's
it's it's beautiful. And with Redemptor,

you know, like he did such an amazing job
with this cover because you can see the growth

in Tarisai, as a more mature person.
And instead of all of the realms

um you can't see very well, but they're like tiny
like sprites, like different kinds of elemental

sprites are in the world of Raybearer, because
it's about Tarisai kind of compressing into that

isolation and preparing for her journey down to
the underworld and struggling with everything

she knows um. But it's there's still so much
beauty in it because there's that's that's the

spirit of Tarisai. Is that even in her you know
grimaced, most discouraged, you know, there's that

agency, just fighting to get out and that hope and
that future. So um I'm very happy with them um.

I actually didn't picture a person on the cover
either I just that was an era of YA book releases

where there were some really beautiful kind of
like typography covers that just had like big

interesting words with like patterns and stuff and
so I liked those covers and I suggested one um,

but then they showed me an artist, kind of
Namina's story, who he hadn't done this cover

yet. But he'd done other sketches of Black women
um just like that were really ethereal and cool

and I thought I would have needed this. I would
have needed this as a girl. So I was all for this

um yeah I think I had a better experience than
a lot of authors that I know um. Some authors,

they're kind of just presented with the cover
and they're like if you want any like little

tweaks we can maybe accommodate those and it's
like, you know, it's it's way off or whatever.

But um yeah I that's that's my cover story. I also
specified things about their features like, hey

Yoruba people and just kind of a lot of Black
people in general don't have big prominent

straight nose bridges. We tend to be kind of
sloped and fluffy, you know, in the nose area.

They're just things that, you know, are
well intentioned, but that they don't know

um reflecting European beauty standards. Like they
might have they might see a dark-skinned celebrity

and not know that one of the reasons why she's
considered beautiful by the mainstream media is

because even though she's got dark skin she's got
very western features. You know things like that

that they don't always pick up on. So I mean those
kind of conversations are just you know they're

they're huge to have. Even if it's just like an
illustration that you're receiving from someone,

you know, and we're lucky you know sometimes
I think about it I'm like oh you know

I'm lucky I even have a conversation
because I will voice all the opinions

if you ask me. So um again this was just way too
short. I just feel like I barely got to any of my

questions that I want to ask, but it was really
wonderful to just even hear you guys speak a

little bit about how you created uh these amazing
fantasy worlds that a lot of young people are,

I know, just going to fall in love
and want more and more and more.

So um if you guys would love to just let us know
what, you know, what we could be looking forward

to, how to look out for you, where where we can
find you, if you're in the twitters or or not?

And uh Roseanne you want to start this off?
And just let remind us you know go pick up

this book you know whatever book that you
want us to get got it. Okay so what obviously

Wraith just came out in paperback uh the paperback
has a little like and I can't find the exact page

so it has a sneak peek of the sequel A Psalm
of Storms and Silence which will be out on

November 2nd. After that I have next spring,
I have a graphic novel coming out with Marvel

um details on that will be announced very soon.
But I'll look forward to that. And then next fall

I have my middle grade debut with Rick Riordan
Presents Serwa Boateng's Guide to Vampire Hunting

will be out next fall. So next year is about to be
very very busy um. For me the best place to find

me is on the Twitters, as you said Lilliam, um
I'm at @rosiesrambles, that's r-o-s-i-e-s rambles.

Rosie rambles is someone else. Please stop sending
her stuff um. Usually honestly I talk about anime.

I'm a big fan of so like if you want book stuff
I tend to talk more book stuff on Instagram,

same handle @rosiesrambles, but like Twitter
is where the fun is. So yeah come hey say hi.

Namina, do you wanna uh tell us where
you're gonna be at and what. Um so uh

go get The Gilded Ones um and book two uh is
coming out next year um. Also you can find me

all across the internets but mainly on the
Twitters @NaminaForna, you can also find me

on Instagram @namina.forna, but I am
really only responsive on Twitter.

So yeah and also you can check out what
I'm doing at um naminaforna.com. Yeah

and Jordan? Hi there, so you can find me primarily
on Instagram. I do have a Twitter and I've been

more active on it just recently for the Nebula
awards. On Twitter I'm @jifueko so like jiffwecko

on Instagram it's at@ordanifueko,
just my full name um and I prefer

Instagram. Twitter um and I have a toxic
relationship of mutual addiction. So

um yeah you can go there you can head to
my website for like resources to stuff

it's jordanifueko.com um and there's also a
message portal. And I, you know, there's a

high volume on those unfortunately, but I do get
to ones that are that seem to be really urgent

um. So yeah that's where you can find me and
Raybearer is available everywhere books are sold.

The audio book has been a finalist for awards,
it's also very good. You can get that libro.fm,

Audible, anywhere um and you could also pre-order
Redemptor anywhere. Well thank you so much for

even just letting me moderate today. This was
really great, it was really great to chat with

all of you. I'm Lilliam Rivera. You can find me
on the twitters @Lilliamr. And this has been Bronx

Book Festival. Bronx is my home so even though
I'm in LA, but my heart is always in the Bronx,

so check out all the other events
and thanks for joining us today

at the Bronx Book Festival. I
love you guys, alright. Bye.