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This is the first time
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I've been back here in a year.
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It's the first crime scene
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I went and visited.
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I didn't see it at night
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the first time.
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It's a lot spookier
and more threatening
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and more confusing at night.
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I feel like these
places have memories
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and have sounds and smells.
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It's really important for me
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to walk in the victim's shoes
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when I'm trying to tell a story.
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Carol Alford was an
African American woman.
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She was 41 years old.
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On the night of July 12, 1987,
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she met Sam Little,
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00:01:54,853 --> 00:01:57,987
and they spent a
few hours together,
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00:01:58,118 --> 00:02:02,034
and by the morning,
she was dead.
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00:02:02,165 --> 00:02:04,689
She had been strangled, dragged,
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00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:05,908
beaten.
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00:02:07,823 --> 00:02:09,693
He killed her here,
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00:02:09,824 --> 00:02:12,349
and she was left in this alley
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with the trash.
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00:02:15,570 --> 00:02:19,226
And I know because
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he told me that.
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The FBI calls Samuel Little.
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00:02:56,828 --> 00:02:58,961
America's most
prolific serial killer.
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00:02:59,091 --> 00:03:02,245
Now, if you want me
to tell my secrets to you,
30
00:03:02,269 --> 00:03:05,968
come down here and look
me in my eye while I do.
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00:03:06,098 --> 00:03:09,121
My deal with the devil is,
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00:03:09,145 --> 00:03:13,236
"You will not die alone
if you tell me the truth."
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00:03:13,367 --> 00:03:14,605
I'm not going to
admit to those girls.
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00:03:14,629 --> 00:03:15,978
I don't believe you,
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00:03:16,108 --> 00:03:18,546
so you tell me
the truth right now.
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Little strangled 93 victims
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00:03:20,765 --> 00:03:23,942
between 1970 and 2005.
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00:03:24,073 --> 00:03:25,683
He was tried and got off
39
00:03:25,814 --> 00:03:27,685
again and again and again.
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00:03:27,816 --> 00:03:29,600
Investigators believe
that Samuel Little
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00:03:29,731 --> 00:03:32,560
killed more people than
serial killers Ted Bundy,
42
00:03:32,690 --> 00:03:36,346
John Wayne Gacy, and
Jeffery Dahmer combined.
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00:03:36,477 --> 00:03:37,671
If you weren't locked up,
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00:03:37,695 --> 00:03:40,220
I'd probably be dead by now.
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00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:42,831
You're right.
46
00:04:06,594 --> 00:04:09,007
I am Jillian Lauren.
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00:04:09,031 --> 00:04:12,513
I'm an author and a
true-crime journalist.
48
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I am writing a book
about a serial killer
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00:04:20,434 --> 00:04:22,305
Samuel Little.
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00:04:22,436 --> 00:04:25,439
Samuel Little was
convicted of three murders
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00:04:25,569 --> 00:04:30,052
in Los Angeles in 2014,
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00:04:30,182 --> 00:04:33,882
murders he vehemently denied.
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00:04:41,890 --> 00:04:44,284
But I suspect
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00:04:44,414 --> 00:04:47,983
that he killed so many more
women across the country.
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I think that I can safely say
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I have written every day
of my life since I was eight.
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00:05:00,952 --> 00:05:04,826
What storytelling does for me
is that it gives me a framework
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to make sense of the world.
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00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:11,006
It instilled a curiosity in me
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00:05:11,136 --> 00:05:15,271
and a desire to
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00:05:15,402 --> 00:05:18,598
look into the more
shadowy corners
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00:05:18,622 --> 00:05:20,320
of humanity.
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00:05:23,366 --> 00:05:27,892
In 2017, I was
researching a mystery novel
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00:05:28,023 --> 00:05:30,112
when I scored an interview
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00:05:30,242 --> 00:05:33,245
with a veteran
homicide detective.
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00:05:36,074 --> 00:05:37,859
My name is Mitzi Roberts.
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00:05:37,989 --> 00:05:40,862
I'm a detective with the Los
Angeles Police Department,
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Robbery-Homicide Division.
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00:05:43,255 --> 00:05:46,626
And I've been on the job, it's
coming up on 25 years now.
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00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:48,173
15-80, 61
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00:05:48,304 --> 00:05:50,350
I love working homicides.
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00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,917
It's that ultimate puzzle.
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You have to be very tenacious.
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00:05:57,052 --> 00:05:59,402
During my interview with Mitzi,
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00:05:59,533 --> 00:06:03,251
I asked, "What cases are
you the most proud of?"
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00:06:03,275 --> 00:06:05,974
And she said, "Well,
I'm proud of them all,
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00:06:06,104 --> 00:06:10,761
but I did catch this
serial killer once."
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00:06:10,892 --> 00:06:15,375
Mitzi told me that there
had been this serial killer
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00:06:15,505 --> 00:06:19,944
who was active in
Los Angeles in the '80s
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00:06:20,075 --> 00:06:22,730
and that she had been
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00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:25,863
the lead investigator
on the case.
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00:06:25,994 --> 00:06:29,563
He had been convicted
of three murders,
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00:06:29,693 --> 00:06:31,913
but she suspected there were
many, many more murders
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00:06:32,043 --> 00:06:33,088
across the country.
85
00:06:38,789 --> 00:06:42,184
And she started
to tell me the story.
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00:06:46,231 --> 00:06:48,669
In the early 2000s,
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00:06:48,799 --> 00:06:52,281
when I was working
in the Cold Case Unit,
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DNA was a newer technology,
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00:06:55,763 --> 00:06:58,679
but it was having
such major successes
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00:06:58,809 --> 00:07:01,919
in solving violent crimes.
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00:07:01,943 --> 00:07:04,946
Mitzi and I were
assigned to work together.
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00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:09,254
We knew we had probably 10,000
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00:07:09,385 --> 00:07:13,084
unsolved murders
going back to 1960.
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00:07:13,215 --> 00:07:14,956
It's mind-boggling.
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00:07:17,654 --> 00:07:20,440
In the '80s, the
crack-cocaine epidemic
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00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:23,723
was out of control.
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00:07:23,747 --> 00:07:26,010
There was a lot of prostitution,
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00:07:26,141 --> 00:07:29,361
and a large portion
of it was focused
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in the South Central
portion of Los Angeles.
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Prostitutes often times,
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00:07:35,542 --> 00:07:38,521
drug users
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00:07:38,545 --> 00:07:41,243
the wayward souls
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quite often, they
were victimized,
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00:07:43,419 --> 00:07:46,117
whether they were
just raped and beat
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or murdered.
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00:07:48,772 --> 00:07:52,099
Now we know there
were multiple serial killers
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in the area at the time,
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00:07:56,084 --> 00:07:57,444
and that was their
hunting ground.
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Audrey Nelson was found
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on August 14, 1989
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in a trash dumpster behind
a Chinese-food restaurant
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00:08:51,182 --> 00:08:55,056
in the central downtown
area of Los Angeles.
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00:08:55,186 --> 00:08:57,798
Audrey had an
extensive arrest record
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for drug and prostitution
related crimes.
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00:09:01,453 --> 00:09:05,632
She was also a
mother of a young child.
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00:09:05,762 --> 00:09:09,200
And the cause of death
was manual strangulation.
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Approximately three weeks later,
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the body of Guadalupe
Apodaca was found
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00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:19,080
on September 3, 1989.
120
00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:24,104
She was found in an
abandoned auto-body shop.
121
00:09:24,128 --> 00:09:26,478
Her body was
shoved into a corner
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00:09:26,609 --> 00:09:30,807
on an old discarded mattress.
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00:09:30,831 --> 00:09:33,790
Guadalupe Apodaca was Hispanic.
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00:09:33,921 --> 00:09:37,054
She had prior offenses
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00:09:37,185 --> 00:09:40,667
for drug related
crimes and prostitution.
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00:09:40,797 --> 00:09:42,973
She had two sons at the time.
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00:09:46,411 --> 00:09:50,566
On July 13, 1987,
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00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:54,985
the body of Carol Alford,
a Black female mother,
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00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,771
was found discarded
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00:09:57,901 --> 00:10:00,097
in an alleyway.
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00:10:00,121 --> 00:10:02,602
Not a prostitute,
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00:10:02,732 --> 00:10:04,821
but known to
occasionally drink and...
133
00:10:04,952 --> 00:10:08,018
And possibly had some
issues with narcotics.
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00:10:13,264 --> 00:10:16,224
All of these women were beaten
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00:10:16,354 --> 00:10:19,943
and manually strangled to death.
136
00:10:19,967 --> 00:10:24,928
And all of these
murder locations
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were in a few
miles of each other.
138
00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:33,981
As many times as you see the MO,
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00:10:34,111 --> 00:10:37,332
it's still shocking to
look at a woman's body
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00:10:37,462 --> 00:10:39,856
discarded with trash
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00:10:39,987 --> 00:10:42,424
and dumped by
the side of the road.
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00:10:45,253 --> 00:10:47,385
These three women,
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00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:51,215
their homicides went
unsolved for decades.
144
00:10:54,262 --> 00:10:57,482
And then in 2012,
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00:10:57,613 --> 00:11:00,181
I got a hit, a DNA hit,
146
00:11:00,311 --> 00:11:03,401
on the case of Audrey Nelson
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00:11:03,532 --> 00:11:06,361
and Guadalupe Apodaca
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00:11:06,491 --> 00:11:09,843
and then Carol Alford.
149
00:11:09,973 --> 00:11:12,367
They have a link basically
to the same suspect.
150
00:11:14,325 --> 00:11:16,850
Forensic analysis confirms
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00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:19,679
that these three
different cases matched
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00:11:19,809 --> 00:11:21,637
with the same person's DNA.
153
00:11:25,075 --> 00:11:28,141
And that person
was Samuel Little,
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00:11:28,165 --> 00:11:31,212
AKA Samuel McDowell.
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00:11:31,342 --> 00:11:34,998
At the time, he
was 71 years old.
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00:11:35,129 --> 00:11:37,871
So, once I get that
name, I'm off to the races.
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00:11:40,656 --> 00:11:44,181
In 2012, Detective
Roberts came to me
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00:11:44,312 --> 00:11:46,706
because of the experience
that I had handling,
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00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:49,404
you know, half a
dozen or so serial killers.
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00:11:49,534 --> 00:11:51,754
I am Beth Silverman.
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00:11:51,885 --> 00:11:53,408
I'm a deputy district attorney
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00:11:53,538 --> 00:11:55,473
with the LA County
District Attorney's Office,
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00:11:55,497 --> 00:11:58,718
assigned to the
Major Crimes Division.
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00:11:58,848 --> 00:12:00,676
One of the first things
we did, obviously,
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00:12:00,807 --> 00:12:03,133
was look at Sam
Little's rap sheet.
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00:12:03,157 --> 00:12:06,290
It's shocking
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00:12:06,421 --> 00:12:10,294
not only the level of violence
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00:12:10,425 --> 00:12:13,384
against women,
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00:12:13,515 --> 00:12:15,778
but how long of
a rap sheet it was.
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00:12:18,781 --> 00:12:22,611
It went back all the way
until when he was a teenager.
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00:12:23,917 --> 00:12:27,050
What was amazing was
that he had been arrested,
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00:12:27,181 --> 00:12:31,272
I think it was in
24 different states.
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00:12:31,402 --> 00:12:34,492
Just arrest after
arrest after arrest,
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00:12:34,623 --> 00:12:38,061
many for assault,
sexual assaults,
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00:12:38,192 --> 00:12:40,455
murder.
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00:12:40,585 --> 00:12:44,764
But he wasn't spending
a lot of time in jail.
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00:12:44,894 --> 00:12:45,765
Holy crap.
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00:12:45,895 --> 00:12:47,505
So that's disturbing
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00:12:47,636 --> 00:12:50,136
because the potential
that he's still doing
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00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,250
violent crimes against
women is likely.
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00:12:54,948 --> 00:12:57,622
Mitzi began to suspect
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00:12:57,646 --> 00:13:00,973
that he might
commit more murders,
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00:13:00,997 --> 00:13:03,846
sexually motivated
serial murders
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00:13:03,870 --> 00:13:06,698
across the country.
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00:13:06,829 --> 00:13:09,353
She knew she had to
get this guy into custody,
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00:13:09,484 --> 00:13:11,375
so she began to track him.
187
00:13:14,315 --> 00:13:16,099
Basically I was following him
188
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:19,799
wherever he left a
digital or written trace
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00:13:19,929 --> 00:13:21,235
of being somewhere.
190
00:13:24,020 --> 00:13:26,631
I'm actively tracking
him, trying to find him,
191
00:13:26,762 --> 00:13:28,546
but he was on the move,
192
00:13:28,677 --> 00:13:30,984
and I was always
one step behind him,
193
00:13:31,114 --> 00:13:32,986
three days behind him.
194
00:13:33,116 --> 00:13:36,293
Until somebody identifies
him or his license plate,
195
00:13:36,424 --> 00:13:39,925
I'm stuck kind of only
knowing the last place he went.
196
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:44,911
And then Mitzi learned
197
00:13:45,041 --> 00:13:48,479
that Sam Little was receiving
198
00:13:48,610 --> 00:13:51,091
some type of disability
benefits out of state,
199
00:13:51,221 --> 00:13:53,310
and so she was able
to track those benefits
200
00:13:53,441 --> 00:13:56,923
to Louisville, Kentucky.
201
00:13:57,053 --> 00:14:00,013
And I'm like,
"Bam, I-I got you."
202
00:14:00,143 --> 00:14:04,191
So I immediately
call the U.S. Marshals.
203
00:14:04,321 --> 00:14:07,194
I want to say within no
more than three hours,
204
00:14:07,324 --> 00:14:09,718
I get a call, and
he's in custody.
205
00:14:09,849 --> 00:14:12,634
I said, "Bingo, they got him."
206
00:14:14,897 --> 00:14:17,682
On September 2, 2014,
207
00:14:17,813 --> 00:14:19,859
Little was found guilty
of all three counts
208
00:14:19,989 --> 00:14:22,359
of first-degree murder.
209
00:14:22,383 --> 00:14:24,776
A serial killer has
learned his fate.
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00:14:24,907 --> 00:14:27,494
74-year-old Samuel
Little was sentenced today
211
00:14:27,518 --> 00:14:30,019
for killing three women
in South Los Angeles
212
00:14:30,043 --> 00:14:32,306
in the 1980s.
213
00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:35,439
Crimes involved great
violence, cruelty, and viciousness.
214
00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:38,094
Shackled to the
sides of his wheelchair,
215
00:14:38,225 --> 00:14:41,315
Samuel Little was not
interested in apologizing.
216
00:14:41,445 --> 00:14:44,971
This conviction was
brought on by lies
217
00:14:45,101 --> 00:14:48,017
and liars coached by liars.
218
00:14:48,148 --> 00:14:50,585
Throughout the entire trial,
219
00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:54,806
Sam Little vehemently denied
committing these murders
220
00:14:54,937 --> 00:14:57,505
again and again and again.
221
00:14:57,635 --> 00:14:59,439
Today the 74-year-old
was sentenced
222
00:14:59,463 --> 00:15:01,683
to three consecutive life terms
223
00:15:01,813 --> 00:15:03,815
without the
possibility of parole.
224
00:15:03,946 --> 00:15:04,991
He's off the streets.
225
00:15:05,121 --> 00:15:09,038
They managed to put him away.
226
00:15:09,169 --> 00:15:10,953
But it always nagged at me
227
00:15:11,084 --> 00:15:13,913
because I knew... I
knew he was a serial killer.
228
00:15:14,043 --> 00:15:16,219
I knew he was good for more.
229
00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:19,309
I knew there was
unsolveds out there.
230
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,835
And I can't get anybody
interested in it, in the story.
231
00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:28,101
Mitzi felt that these had
been under reported cases,
232
00:15:28,231 --> 00:15:31,713
in large part because
Samuel Little's victims
233
00:15:31,843 --> 00:15:33,454
were in marginalized populations
234
00:15:35,978 --> 00:15:38,763
women of color, drug
addicts, prostitutes,
235
00:15:38,894 --> 00:15:41,853
women who were considered
236
00:15:41,984 --> 00:15:42,984
unimportant.
237
00:15:46,728 --> 00:15:50,166
"This phenomenon has
been referred to as being
238
00:15:50,297 --> 00:15:53,865
"'less dead.'
239
00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:57,217
"Marginalized homicide
victims historically
240
00:15:57,347 --> 00:15:59,480
"are not as
thoroughly investigated
241
00:15:59,610 --> 00:16:02,024
"as their wealthier, whiter,
242
00:16:02,048 --> 00:16:05,766
"and perhaps more
sober counterparts.
243
00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,750
"Pretty, white college
students are the 'most dead.'
244
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,927
Black hookers are
the 'least dead.'"
245
00:16:14,712 --> 00:16:18,760
The idea that there were
so many women out there,
246
00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:22,827
potentially so many victims
247
00:16:22,851 --> 00:16:26,637
who had been
brutalized and forgotten
248
00:16:26,768 --> 00:16:30,467
is not acceptable to me.
249
00:16:32,817 --> 00:16:35,361
And when I learned
he was a strangler,
250
00:16:35,385 --> 00:16:38,127
that was what
planted the seed in me
251
00:16:38,258 --> 00:16:41,174
to start pursuing this story,
252
00:16:41,304 --> 00:16:45,178
because I was a victim, too,
253
00:16:45,308 --> 00:16:49,051
somebody who was lucky enough
254
00:16:49,182 --> 00:16:52,794
to have survived.
255
00:16:54,665 --> 00:16:56,817
When I was 20 years old,
256
00:16:56,841 --> 00:16:59,192
I went to Mills College,
257
00:16:59,322 --> 00:17:03,022
which is a women's college
in Oakland, California.
258
00:17:03,152 --> 00:17:06,676
I eventually was introduced
259
00:17:06,808 --> 00:17:07,983
to heroin.
260
00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:12,509
The first time I tried heroin, I
261
00:17:14,642 --> 00:17:18,776
was just like...
262
00:17:18,906 --> 00:17:22,345
"This is the way I've
been waiting to feel."
263
00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:25,695
Really, it was
just like breathing.
264
00:17:25,827 --> 00:17:29,309
It was like I finally
took a full breath.
265
00:17:29,439 --> 00:17:31,876
And that was it.
266
00:17:32,007 --> 00:17:35,987
I decided I liked heroin
better than I liked college.
267
00:17:39,014 --> 00:17:42,235
I was in a pretty dark
place at that time.
268
00:17:42,365 --> 00:17:45,064
I was really lost.
269
00:17:45,194 --> 00:17:47,544
I wound up meeting this guy
270
00:17:47,675 --> 00:17:49,981
who became my boyfriend,
271
00:17:50,112 --> 00:17:54,812
and he was really explosive,
272
00:17:54,943 --> 00:17:57,859
and he was really
bright and so exciting,
273
00:17:57,989 --> 00:18:01,471
and, um, you know,
274
00:18:01,602 --> 00:18:03,299
and-and was also
a heroin addict.
275
00:18:06,563 --> 00:18:10,001
And we were living
together at the time.
276
00:18:10,132 --> 00:18:13,546
It was a-a while before he
277
00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:16,573
became violent.
278
00:18:16,704 --> 00:18:18,551
And then he started
shoving me up against a wall.
279
00:18:18,575 --> 00:18:21,293
Then he started, um,
280
00:18:21,317 --> 00:18:24,644
barricading me in
the house for days.
281
00:18:24,668 --> 00:18:27,758
He was emotionally
abusive as well,
282
00:18:27,889 --> 00:18:31,197
and my friends started
to get really concerned.
283
00:18:31,327 --> 00:18:33,827
And they said, you know, like,
284
00:18:33,851 --> 00:18:36,245
"We're worried.
You have to get out.
285
00:18:36,376 --> 00:18:40,293
We're worried for your
safety. He is very dangerous."
286
00:18:40,423 --> 00:18:42,773
So I got a storage space,
287
00:18:42,904 --> 00:18:47,387
and I made a plan to
move to Los Angeles.
288
00:18:47,517 --> 00:18:49,128
Shit.
289
00:18:51,347 --> 00:18:54,089
Just give me a second, okay?
290
00:18:56,309 --> 00:18:58,963
And I didn't tell him,
291
00:18:59,094 --> 00:19:02,793
and I was packing
my stuff one day
292
00:19:02,924 --> 00:19:05,100
when he came home.
293
00:19:05,231 --> 00:19:07,058
I remember I was in the kitchen.
294
00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:10,497
I was placing each one
of my glasses in a box.
295
00:19:10,627 --> 00:19:12,605
And he was, like,
two feet from me,
296
00:19:12,629 --> 00:19:14,936
and he was just
crying and crying.
297
00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:23,858
I kept packing the
glasses, and, um
298
00:19:23,988 --> 00:19:26,315
like, the next thing I
knew, I was on the floor,
299
00:19:26,339 --> 00:19:29,124
and he was on top of me,
300
00:19:29,255 --> 00:19:32,736
and his hands were
around my neck.
301
00:19:32,867 --> 00:19:35,609
And I was coming to,
302
00:19:40,135 --> 00:19:43,897
and, and it was like
303
00:19:43,921 --> 00:19:46,228
I thought that I...
I might be dead.
304
00:19:49,492 --> 00:19:52,582
I looked up at him, and
he had his hands like this.
305
00:19:54,497 --> 00:19:56,388
He just looked so exhilarated,
306
00:19:56,412 --> 00:19:58,588
and I couldn't tell if
he was exhilarated
307
00:19:58,719 --> 00:20:00,697
because he had
finally tried to kill me
308
00:20:00,721 --> 00:20:02,766
or because he had
stopped himself.
309
00:20:05,204 --> 00:20:07,815
I felt very confused.
310
00:20:07,945 --> 00:20:11,601
And then there was
this undercurrent
311
00:20:11,732 --> 00:20:14,387
of pain and shame.
312
00:20:16,824 --> 00:20:20,369
After that, he stood up,
313
00:20:20,393 --> 00:20:23,918
and he reached
his hand out to me
314
00:20:24,048 --> 00:20:26,050
to lift me off the floor.
315
00:20:26,181 --> 00:20:28,246
And he pulled me up,
316
00:20:28,270 --> 00:20:31,186
and
317
00:20:31,317 --> 00:20:33,841
it's still the moment
I most regret.
318
00:20:35,973 --> 00:20:40,195
I just wish I hadn't
let him pull me up.
319
00:20:40,326 --> 00:20:43,590
I just wish I had gotten back
onto my feet by myself, but.
320
00:20:48,899 --> 00:20:50,423
I did eventually.
321
00:20:55,123 --> 00:20:58,561
When you've had a painful past,
322
00:20:58,692 --> 00:21:00,998
it can create a
sense of empathy.
323
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:06,066
That's why I care
about these victims.
324
00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:08,571
I want to understand
325
00:21:08,702 --> 00:21:12,749
violence against
women in this culture.
326
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,404
And this is the part
I can play in this
327
00:21:15,535 --> 00:21:19,950
to bring some
sort of voice, story,
328
00:21:19,974 --> 00:21:23,325
justice, humanity
to these victims
329
00:21:23,456 --> 00:21:27,416
who are dehumanized
330
00:21:27,547 --> 00:21:29,592
by being ignored.
331
00:21:31,986 --> 00:21:35,642
An essential part of the story
332
00:21:35,772 --> 00:21:39,210
is obviously Samuel Little.
333
00:21:39,341 --> 00:21:41,300
So I started
reaching out to him.
334
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:43,432
I-I-I wrote him a letter.
335
00:21:43,563 --> 00:21:47,436
I told him I was
interested in his story.
336
00:21:47,567 --> 00:21:50,570
I was scared of
him in the beginning.
337
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:53,157
I remember the first
letter I opened of his,
338
00:21:53,181 --> 00:21:55,618
I wore gloves.
339
00:21:55,749 --> 00:21:57,204
You know, like, I
wore rubber gloves.
340
00:21:57,228 --> 00:22:01,078
I was so grossed out.
341
00:22:01,102 --> 00:22:05,324
And we exchanged letters.
342
00:22:05,454 --> 00:22:08,675
Then I applied to
visit him in prison,
343
00:22:08,805 --> 00:22:11,155
and I got approved.
344
00:22:11,286 --> 00:22:12,959
I'll tell you one
thing about Jillian,
345
00:22:12,983 --> 00:22:14,855
when she gets
an idea in her head
346
00:22:14,985 --> 00:22:17,336
that she wants to do
something, it is gonna happen.
347
00:22:17,466 --> 00:22:21,252
I am Scott G. Shriner,
348
00:22:21,383 --> 00:22:25,169
husband of Jillian Lauren,
349
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:29,957
father of Tariku
and Jovanni Shriner.
350
00:22:30,087 --> 00:22:32,327
My husband is the bassist
351
00:22:32,351 --> 00:22:35,112
of the band Weezer.
352
00:22:35,136 --> 00:22:38,357
And he is a shredder.
And he's awesome.
353
00:22:40,054 --> 00:22:41,360
Wait, what about this one?
354
00:22:43,144 --> 00:22:43,971
What do you think
about this one?
355
00:22:44,101 --> 00:22:46,365
Who's that?
356
00:22:46,495 --> 00:22:49,933
- Well, that's Mommy.
- Wait, that's you?
357
00:22:50,064 --> 00:22:52,371
That doesn't
look like you at all.
358
00:22:54,198 --> 00:22:57,985
I told my husband,
"I'm gonna pursue this.
359
00:22:58,115 --> 00:23:00,988
It's about these victims.
It's about these women."
360
00:23:01,118 --> 00:23:04,054
And I believe
361
00:23:04,078 --> 00:23:06,515
there are many
more victims out there
362
00:23:06,646 --> 00:23:09,736
whose cases are unsolved.
363
00:23:09,866 --> 00:23:11,266
What do you...
what do you think of
364
00:23:11,302 --> 00:23:13,435
when you look at this picture?
365
00:23:13,566 --> 00:23:16,743
Dad looks pretty
handsome in that picture.
366
00:23:16,873 --> 00:23:19,069
I was reluctant.
367
00:23:19,093 --> 00:23:20,679
I was like, "I don't
know about, you know",
368
00:23:20,703 --> 00:23:23,314
"getting friendly with the guy."
369
00:23:23,445 --> 00:23:26,056
"I mean, he's a vicious killer."
370
00:23:26,187 --> 00:23:28,470
You know, "Are
you gonna be safe?
371
00:23:28,494 --> 00:23:32,106
What's this what is this
gonna do to you emotionally?"
372
00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:34,476
I got to kind of watch
out for my well-being
373
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:35,500
and our kids, too.
374
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:40,375
And, we talked about it.
375
00:23:40,506 --> 00:23:42,072
It-it did seem important,
376
00:23:42,203 --> 00:23:44,921
and it seemed like
it meant a lot to her.
377
00:23:44,945 --> 00:23:47,663
These victims'
stories need to be told,
378
00:23:47,687 --> 00:23:52,126
and the importance of it
outweighed my reluctance.
379
00:23:52,256 --> 00:23:55,869
My husband was
like, "I support you."
380
00:23:55,999 --> 00:23:59,220
And I said, "I'm
going in there."
381
00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:04,157
"I'm going in there,
382
00:24:04,181 --> 00:24:05,922
and I'm gonna
talk to Sam Little."
383
00:24:14,975 --> 00:24:18,326
When I drove up
to the guard station,
384
00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:20,197
I had a panic attack.
385
00:24:20,328 --> 00:24:22,393
It's pretty nerve-racking.
386
00:24:22,417 --> 00:24:27,204
He is a vicious killer.
387
00:24:27,335 --> 00:24:29,076
But I just thought,
388
00:24:29,206 --> 00:24:32,079
"I'm just gonna not be afraid."
389
00:24:32,209 --> 00:24:34,100
That's what he feeds off of,
390
00:24:34,124 --> 00:24:36,605
is women's fear.
391
00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:43,806
When I walked inside...
392
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:46,267
It's one of the largest
prisons in the country.
393
00:24:48,965 --> 00:24:51,054
It was truly terrifying
394
00:24:51,185 --> 00:24:54,556
to walk into that giant cage.
395
00:25:00,281 --> 00:25:02,196
And it is very hot.
396
00:25:02,326 --> 00:25:06,306
It really-it really is hell.
397
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:10,073
My knees were actually,
like, knocking together.
398
00:25:10,204 --> 00:25:12,902
When I finally entered.
399
00:25:13,033 --> 00:25:16,340
B Block visiting room,
400
00:25:16,471 --> 00:25:19,779
I-I made it, and I
got in, and I sat there,
401
00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:23,149
and I waited, and I
was watching a door
402
00:25:23,173 --> 00:25:25,132
in the other side of the room,
403
00:25:25,262 --> 00:25:28,135
and Sam came out
of the other door.
404
00:25:28,265 --> 00:25:30,180
By the time I
noticed he was there,
405
00:25:30,311 --> 00:25:32,531
he was, like, right here.
406
00:25:35,011 --> 00:25:38,058
There was this serial killer
four inches from my face.
407
00:25:40,364 --> 00:25:42,671
And he said, "You.
408
00:25:42,802 --> 00:25:44,847
You."
409
00:25:44,978 --> 00:25:49,199
And I was like, "What's
gonna happen now?"
410
00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:52,289
He said, "You"
411
00:25:52,420 --> 00:25:54,465
"are my angel come
to visit me from Heaven.
412
00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:55,771
What do you want to know?"
413
00:25:57,817 --> 00:26:01,995
It was almost like
I couldn't move.
414
00:26:02,125 --> 00:26:04,258
I'm processing the
fact that I, you know,
415
00:26:04,388 --> 00:26:08,784
I've really never sat in
front of a murderer before.
416
00:26:08,915 --> 00:26:11,744
And the first thing that
struck me was his eyes.
417
00:26:13,963 --> 00:26:18,204
And what I see is, like,
there's nothing behind them.
418
00:26:20,491 --> 00:26:22,189
There's nothing.
419
00:26:25,453 --> 00:26:27,586
I said, "You know, I'm a writer"
420
00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:32,416
"who is-is curious
about violent crime.
421
00:26:32,547 --> 00:26:35,158
I'm wondering if you
might be able to help me."
422
00:26:35,289 --> 00:26:38,379
And that whole first day,
423
00:26:38,509 --> 00:26:41,904
he just fed me a line of shit.
424
00:26:42,035 --> 00:26:44,603
"You know, I was framed."
425
00:26:53,263 --> 00:26:55,178
He maintained his innocence.
426
00:26:55,309 --> 00:26:58,680
You know, "DNA is bullshit."
427
00:26:58,704 --> 00:27:02,098
"All that proves is that
you were somewhere.
428
00:27:02,229 --> 00:27:04,274
"I have just been
in the wrong place
429
00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:05,948
at the wrong time."
430
00:27:07,451 --> 00:27:11,562
I knew that he was lying.
431
00:27:11,586 --> 00:27:13,980
And then I said goodbye,
432
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:17,026
and I went home.
433
00:27:17,157 --> 00:27:20,551
I was feeling pretty despondent.
434
00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:29,343
But it lit a fire in me
435
00:27:29,473 --> 00:27:31,562
and made me determined
436
00:27:31,693 --> 00:27:35,436
to look deeper into Sam's past.
437
00:27:35,566 --> 00:27:37,699
These are two
438
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:41,094
of the 27 notebooks of research
439
00:27:41,224 --> 00:27:42,530
I have on this case,
440
00:27:42,661 --> 00:27:45,185
and this is really
where it started.
441
00:27:45,315 --> 00:27:48,294
I started looking at
the public records,
442
00:27:48,318 --> 00:27:50,949
calling local jurisdictions,
443
00:27:50,973 --> 00:27:53,759
and I
444
00:27:53,889 --> 00:27:57,545
couldn't believe
what I was finding.
445
00:27:57,676 --> 00:27:59,958
I read his rap sheet,
446
00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:00,982
which was
447
00:28:02,202 --> 00:28:04,552
astounding.
448
00:28:04,683 --> 00:28:08,469
Samuel Little had a rap
sheet over 100 pages long,
449
00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:12,386
everything from petty theft
450
00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:14,649
to assault to rape
451
00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:17,260
to murder.
452
00:28:17,391 --> 00:28:19,001
There have been a lot
453
00:28:19,132 --> 00:28:23,223
of sexual assault victims.
454
00:28:23,353 --> 00:28:26,835
He was tried and got off
again and again and again.
455
00:28:26,966 --> 00:28:28,204
I thought, "This can't be true.
456
00:28:28,228 --> 00:28:31,424
This is outrageous."
457
00:28:31,448 --> 00:28:34,384
I was furious.
458
00:28:34,408 --> 00:28:36,081
And when I find
something hard to believe,
459
00:28:36,105 --> 00:28:37,716
I'm not gonna
take it at face value.
460
00:28:37,846 --> 00:28:40,259
I'm gonna go in
461
00:28:40,283 --> 00:28:42,851
and really do the
investigative work
462
00:28:42,982 --> 00:28:44,592
and confirm it,
463
00:28:44,723 --> 00:28:48,988
because I thought,
"There's no way this is true.
464
00:28:49,118 --> 00:28:51,860
There must've been
something else going on."
465
00:28:51,991 --> 00:28:53,819
And if there wasn't,
466
00:28:53,949 --> 00:28:55,995
why?
467
00:28:56,125 --> 00:28:59,041
Like, why did he get
away with this for so long?
468
00:28:59,172 --> 00:29:00,347
And how?
469
00:29:03,524 --> 00:29:07,354
So, in 2018,
470
00:29:07,484 --> 00:29:09,922
I went to Pascagoula,
Mississippi,
471
00:29:10,052 --> 00:29:12,402
to meet Hilda Nelson.
472
00:29:12,533 --> 00:29:14,753
Hilda Nelson is one
473
00:29:14,883 --> 00:29:18,844
of Sam's surviving victims.
474
00:29:18,974 --> 00:29:21,324
She was attacked by Sam Little
475
00:29:21,455 --> 00:29:24,980
in July 1980,
476
00:29:25,111 --> 00:29:27,287
but somehow survived.
477
00:29:30,246 --> 00:29:31,857
When I went to Pascagoula,
478
00:29:31,987 --> 00:29:35,991
it was my first real fieldwork
479
00:29:36,122 --> 00:29:38,970
around the Sam Little case.
480
00:29:38,994 --> 00:29:41,756
This is my little recorder.
481
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:44,391
When I do research, I, you know,
482
00:29:44,521 --> 00:29:48,221
when given permission,
always record any conversation.
483
00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:52,549
Um, so this is my
audio of Hilda Nelson,
484
00:29:52,573 --> 00:29:56,882
who I hoped could
give me a window
485
00:29:57,012 --> 00:29:58,361
unto a world
486
00:29:58,492 --> 00:30:01,234
in which Sam operated...
487
00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:05,281
Carver Village.
488
00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,026
What was it like?
Describe it to me.
489
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:23,952
What were the clubs like?
490
00:30:24,083 --> 00:30:26,041
Were they bars?
Was there dancing?
491
00:30:34,354 --> 00:30:36,922
Before the incident
happened with Sam,
492
00:30:37,052 --> 00:30:38,619
was there ever any violence?
493
00:32:55,408 --> 00:32:57,410
Hilda was just like,
494
00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:00,911
"I don't count on
this justice system
495
00:33:00,935 --> 00:33:03,546
"to bring any kind
of accountability
496
00:33:03,677 --> 00:33:06,985
or justice to me."
497
00:33:07,115 --> 00:33:11,902
She said the only
reason anyone cared
498
00:33:12,033 --> 00:33:15,950
that a Black prostitute in
Mississippi was attacked
499
00:33:16,081 --> 00:33:19,127
was when a white
girl went missing
500
00:33:19,258 --> 00:33:21,782
two years later.
501
00:33:21,912 --> 00:33:25,066
And that girl was
Melinda LaPree.
502
00:33:30,878 --> 00:33:32,314
My sister, Mindy,
503
00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:35,926
she went missing in
September of 1982.
504
00:33:36,057 --> 00:33:39,645
Her boyfriend called my father
505
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:41,671
to tell him that, you
know, Mindy's missing.
506
00:33:44,935 --> 00:33:48,915
I was really worried, obviously.
507
00:33:48,939 --> 00:33:52,049
Her boyfriend, he had been told
508
00:33:52,073 --> 00:33:54,356
by some of her friends
that she had gotten
509
00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:58,862
into a car with a man
and never saw her again.
510
00:33:58,993 --> 00:34:01,648
I was certainly very, concerned
511
00:34:01,778 --> 00:34:04,975
that something
terrible had happened.
512
00:34:04,999 --> 00:34:07,088
That's when I started
to get in contact
513
00:34:07,219 --> 00:34:09,917
with the authorities.
514
00:34:10,047 --> 00:34:11,745
Melinda LaPree
was a white female.
515
00:34:11,875 --> 00:34:13,399
She's 22 years old.
516
00:34:13,529 --> 00:34:15,183
She was a prostitute.
517
00:34:15,313 --> 00:34:17,664
She's been missing.
She's not come home.
518
00:34:17,793 --> 00:34:19,840
Their initial reaction was,
519
00:34:19,969 --> 00:34:22,538
"Well, we don't
really have any reason
520
00:34:22,668 --> 00:34:24,235
"to think there
has been foul play,
521
00:34:24,366 --> 00:34:26,629
"and so she may
have just moved on
522
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,415
and not told anybody."
523
00:34:29,545 --> 00:34:31,199
It had only been
a couple of hours,
524
00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:33,375
and the officer
at the front desk
525
00:34:33,505 --> 00:34:35,744
basically told him,
"Come back in the morning
526
00:34:35,768 --> 00:34:38,337
if she hasn't returned,"
which was typical in that day,
527
00:34:38,467 --> 00:34:41,121
for prostitutes to leave
for days sometimes,
528
00:34:41,253 --> 00:34:43,013
only to come back and
not really be missing.
529
00:34:45,474 --> 00:34:47,452
I suspect that Sam Little
530
00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:49,261
got away with this for so long
531
00:34:49,391 --> 00:34:51,524
because he was operating
532
00:34:51,654 --> 00:34:54,614
in communities he
knew were ignored
533
00:34:56,659 --> 00:34:58,966
places where he was confident
534
00:34:59,097 --> 00:35:01,099
he wouldn't get caught
535
00:35:01,229 --> 00:35:04,058
because he felt his
victims were invisible.
536
00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:11,979
Judson Brooks was
537
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:14,242
one of the original
investigators
538
00:35:14,373 --> 00:35:16,418
on the Melinda
LaPree case in 1982.
539
00:35:19,813 --> 00:35:21,031
You remember this old paper?
540
00:35:21,162 --> 00:35:22,511
Yes, I do.
541
00:35:24,034 --> 00:35:25,664
It said, "Here's a female"
542
00:35:25,688 --> 00:35:27,995
"who was a witness
that Melinda LaPree
543
00:35:28,126 --> 00:35:31,017
"getting into a-to a
brown Pinto station wagon
544
00:35:31,041 --> 00:35:32,608
"with an Alabama tag
545
00:35:32,739 --> 00:35:34,480
the night of
September the 15th."
546
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:36,525
Right.
547
00:35:36,656 --> 00:35:39,093
Investigators that were
working the case back then,
548
00:35:39,224 --> 00:35:41,898
they start interviewing
some people that actually saw
549
00:35:41,922 --> 00:35:44,925
what car she got into and
the-the driver behind the car.
550
00:35:45,055 --> 00:35:46,511
They watched her get in,
551
00:35:46,535 --> 00:35:47,817
and they seen him
come back without her.
552
00:35:47,841 --> 00:35:49,451
Yeah.
553
00:35:49,582 --> 00:35:53,214
Well, that's not a
whole lot to start with.
554
00:35:53,238 --> 00:35:56,739
The driver behind the
car was a Black male.
555
00:35:56,763 --> 00:35:58,417
There were other
prostitutes that saw her
556
00:35:58,547 --> 00:36:00,427
get into a station wagon
with wood-grain panels
557
00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:04,007
and an Alabama tag.
558
00:36:04,031 --> 00:36:06,860
And that's what law
enforcement began looking for.
559
00:36:09,471 --> 00:36:12,320
When I heard that
Mindy was missing,
560
00:36:12,344 --> 00:36:14,041
I was really worried.
561
00:36:14,172 --> 00:36:15,651
And then, you know,
562
00:36:15,782 --> 00:36:17,827
one week became two weeks
563
00:36:17,958 --> 00:36:19,351
and then three weeks
564
00:36:19,481 --> 00:36:22,310
and more.
565
00:36:22,441 --> 00:36:24,617
Here she is when she
was just a cute little girl.
566
00:36:26,575 --> 00:36:28,490
She was a happy child.
Mindy would, you know,
567
00:36:28,621 --> 00:36:30,207
wake up and be in
her crib in the morning,
568
00:36:30,231 --> 00:36:31,580
and she would be singing.
569
00:36:31,711 --> 00:36:33,234
Taught herself
to play the flute.
570
00:36:33,365 --> 00:36:34,646
She played wonderful music,
571
00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:37,282
both flute and piano and...
572
00:36:37,412 --> 00:36:39,327
We had a piano in the house.
573
00:36:39,458 --> 00:36:41,721
2:001:00 or 2:00 in the morning,
574
00:36:41,851 --> 00:36:43,418
3:00 in the morning,
all of a sudden,
575
00:36:43,549 --> 00:36:45,377
you hear Beethoven,
576
00:36:45,507 --> 00:36:48,162
or it could be
"Stairway to Heaven."
577
00:36:48,293 --> 00:36:51,209
She could play by ear.
578
00:36:51,339 --> 00:36:52,775
She was really smart.
579
00:36:52,906 --> 00:36:54,864
She could sleep
through class and get A's.
580
00:36:54,995 --> 00:36:56,214
And she did.
581
00:36:58,825 --> 00:37:00,479
It was an idyllic time, I think.
582
00:37:01,915 --> 00:37:03,699
It's kind of
bittersweet to look at it.
583
00:37:09,879 --> 00:37:12,621
Our father was
rather, emotionally cold
584
00:37:12,752 --> 00:37:15,233
and often quite violent.
585
00:37:15,363 --> 00:37:17,235
Yeah, he beat all of us,
586
00:37:17,365 --> 00:37:20,847
and Melinda and I took,
I think, the brunt of it.
587
00:37:20,977 --> 00:37:23,478
Mindy suffered pretty heavily.
588
00:37:23,502 --> 00:37:26,853
We're talking some
serious beatings here.
589
00:37:26,983 --> 00:37:29,247
Melinda started acting out
590
00:37:29,377 --> 00:37:31,640
and-and-and being rebellious.
591
00:37:34,077 --> 00:37:37,255
You know, she was
living kind of a raw lifestyle,
592
00:37:37,385 --> 00:37:39,518
on-the-edge kind of living.
593
00:37:39,648 --> 00:37:42,782
Sold drugs. Took
drugs, sold drugs.
594
00:37:42,912 --> 00:37:45,393
And she sold herself
as a sex worker.
595
00:37:49,267 --> 00:37:51,834
In August 1982,
596
00:37:51,965 --> 00:37:54,750
Mindy called to say
597
00:37:54,881 --> 00:37:56,989
she was having a baby.
598
00:37:57,013 --> 00:37:59,189
And she was very...
599
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,323
Very upbeat and
very happy about it.
600
00:38:02,454 --> 00:38:04,519
Mindy had her son, Will,
601
00:38:04,543 --> 00:38:07,328
in August 1982.
602
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:13,291
And then she disappeared
603
00:38:13,421 --> 00:38:15,293
just three weeks later.
604
00:38:25,477 --> 00:38:27,957
Almost a month later,
605
00:38:28,088 --> 00:38:30,588
a body is found
606
00:38:30,612 --> 00:38:34,050
in a ditch in a cemetery
607
00:38:34,181 --> 00:38:36,314
in our sister city,
Gautier, Mississippi.
608
00:38:39,447 --> 00:38:41,275
When we found the body,
609
00:38:41,406 --> 00:38:43,190
she was in a state
of decomposition.
610
00:38:43,321 --> 00:38:45,061
She's already been
out in the elements
611
00:38:45,192 --> 00:38:46,976
for almost a month.
612
00:38:49,675 --> 00:38:51,938
She was discarded
like a bag of garbage.
613
00:38:57,335 --> 00:39:00,033
The autopsy report, it
showed strangulation,
614
00:39:00,163 --> 00:39:01,948
manual strangulation.
615
00:39:09,651 --> 00:39:12,108
We knew it was a homicide.
616
00:39:12,132 --> 00:39:14,961
I think I went into shock.
617
00:39:15,091 --> 00:39:18,660
And I stayed that way
for, you know, weeks.
618
00:39:18,791 --> 00:39:21,315
I mean, guilt,
619
00:39:21,446 --> 00:39:23,491
anger, rage.
620
00:39:25,537 --> 00:39:26,886
We were raised Catholic.
621
00:39:27,016 --> 00:39:30,411
She had a Catholic burial.
622
00:39:30,542 --> 00:39:32,195
I remember coming
out of the church,
623
00:39:32,326 --> 00:39:35,547
lighting up a cigarette
624
00:39:35,677 --> 00:39:38,898
taking a couple puffs off of it,
625
00:39:39,028 --> 00:39:40,856
and putting it out in my hand
626
00:39:43,642 --> 00:39:45,663
just to feel something.
627
00:39:48,821 --> 00:39:51,756
It took me out.
628
00:39:51,780 --> 00:39:53,913
There's no other
way to describe it.
629
00:40:00,789 --> 00:40:02,748
Two months after
Melinda's murder,
630
00:40:02,878 --> 00:40:06,075
it's November, and
we catch a break.
631
00:40:06,099 --> 00:40:08,469
A car is stopped
632
00:40:08,493 --> 00:40:12,105
two cities from
us for shoplifting.
633
00:40:12,235 --> 00:40:14,388
It's a station wagon
with a wood-grain panel
634
00:40:14,412 --> 00:40:16,805
and Alabama tag.
635
00:40:16,936 --> 00:40:20,679
It's the same car that
Melinda was seen getting into.
636
00:40:20,809 --> 00:40:22,855
And then we have our suspect,
637
00:40:22,985 --> 00:40:25,747
and his name he
gives is Sam McDowell.
638
00:40:25,771 --> 00:40:27,990
And, ultimately, we found
out that Sam McDowell
639
00:40:28,121 --> 00:40:29,252
is actually Sam Little.
640
00:40:35,781 --> 00:40:37,391
So the investigators
working the case,
641
00:40:37,522 --> 00:40:39,219
they're interviewing Sam Little.
642
00:40:41,439 --> 00:40:44,572
Sam is denying
everything. "I wasn't here."
643
00:40:44,703 --> 00:40:46,071
"I don't know what
you're talking about.
644
00:40:46,095 --> 00:40:47,488
I ain't killed nobody."
645
00:40:47,619 --> 00:40:50,796
Just denial, denial, denial.
646
00:40:50,926 --> 00:40:53,252
But investigators
found receipts in the car
647
00:40:53,276 --> 00:40:56,105
that shows him at a hotel here.
648
00:40:56,236 --> 00:40:57,933
So he says he wasn't here,
649
00:40:58,064 --> 00:41:00,588
but we got motel
receipts says he was.
650
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,937
Melinda LaPree was killed
651
00:41:02,068 --> 00:41:03,765
during the time
that he was here,
652
00:41:03,896 --> 00:41:07,290
so, you know,
we're-we're building a case.
653
00:41:07,421 --> 00:41:10,729
But, unfortunately,
because of Melinda's body
654
00:41:10,859 --> 00:41:12,774
being out in the
elements for so long,
655
00:41:12,905 --> 00:41:14,404
we didn't have any
evidence to support
656
00:41:14,428 --> 00:41:16,362
that, Sam killed her.
657
00:41:16,386 --> 00:41:17,910
We didn't have any evidence
658
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,390
of her in the car
that they-they found.
659
00:41:20,521 --> 00:41:22,456
We're gonna have challenges
660
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,656
in trying to get the
evidence needed
661
00:41:24,786 --> 00:41:27,833
to-to get this thing in court.
662
00:41:51,813 --> 00:41:54,139
But I talked to the
D.A. about holding him,
663
00:41:54,163 --> 00:41:55,314
but he said, "You
can't hold him.
664
00:41:55,338 --> 00:41:56,731
You have nothing
to hold him on."
665
00:41:56,862 --> 00:41:59,299
I said, "Well, maybe can
I hold him on vagrancy?"
666
00:41:59,429 --> 00:42:01,344
He said, "No, I don't think so."
667
00:42:01,475 --> 00:42:03,061
You were trying to do
whatever you could to keep him...
668
00:42:03,085 --> 00:42:04,652
Everything I could
do to keep him here,
669
00:42:04,783 --> 00:42:06,567
but like I said, all
this, what is in here
670
00:42:06,698 --> 00:42:08,613
is all that we had.
671
00:42:08,743 --> 00:42:11,461
Every chance
that we tried to use
672
00:42:11,485 --> 00:42:14,706
did not hold water
according to the D.A.,
673
00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:17,970
and, of course, he was right.
674
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:20,102
When they couldn't
get him on the murder,
675
00:42:20,233 --> 00:42:21,776
what investigators
did is they were trying
676
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,106
to put something together
677
00:42:24,237 --> 00:42:27,327
so they could get Sam
Little off of, off the streets
678
00:42:27,457 --> 00:42:30,635
and be sure he didn't
kill anybody else.
679
00:42:30,765 --> 00:42:32,637
And so that's when
investigators found out
680
00:42:32,767 --> 00:42:34,508
there's two other prostitutes,
681
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:36,704
two other victims
that have survived
682
00:42:36,728 --> 00:42:38,947
similar attacks in Pascagoula
683
00:42:39,078 --> 00:42:41,689
on previous dates.
684
00:42:41,820 --> 00:42:43,299
They fought back,
685
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:45,954
and-and they were able
to survive the attack
686
00:42:46,085 --> 00:42:48,696
Leila McClain
687
00:42:48,827 --> 00:42:51,177
and Hilda Nelson.
688
00:43:08,803 --> 00:43:11,197
Hilda and Leila,
689
00:43:11,327 --> 00:43:13,678
both these women
come to the station,
690
00:43:13,808 --> 00:43:17,290
and they pick Sam
Little out of a lineup.
691
00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:20,467
And they positively ID'd him
692
00:43:20,598 --> 00:43:23,165
as strangling them
and trying to kill them.
693
00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:35,351
These two women,
694
00:43:35,482 --> 00:43:37,460
they were the strongest
case we had against Sam Little
695
00:43:37,484 --> 00:43:39,244
at the time, even
though we suspected him
696
00:43:39,268 --> 00:43:41,507
of killing Melinda LaPree.
697
00:43:41,531 --> 00:43:43,882
But these were prostitutes.
698
00:43:44,012 --> 00:43:45,511
You're gonna
have a difficult time
699
00:43:45,535 --> 00:43:48,451
trying to get credibility
up with a jury.
700
00:43:48,582 --> 00:43:51,193
They'd been arrested,
probably numerous times,
701
00:43:51,324 --> 00:43:54,022
and, "How can you believe them?"
702
00:43:54,153 --> 00:43:55,154
But we had to try.
703
00:44:12,127 --> 00:44:16,107
I believe it was an
enormous act of courage
704
00:44:16,131 --> 00:44:18,196
and faith
705
00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:21,180
on the part of these women
706
00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:23,617
who were Black prostitutes,
707
00:44:23,748 --> 00:44:27,403
and they still came
to testify against him.
708
00:44:28,491 --> 00:44:32,626
They walked for miles
to the courthouse,
709
00:44:32,757 --> 00:44:35,977
and Hilda was pregnant
710
00:44:36,108 --> 00:44:38,414
at the time.
711
00:44:38,545 --> 00:44:42,046
When they walked
in and Hilda saw Sam,
712
00:44:42,070 --> 00:44:45,378
she was so
frightened, she urinated.
713
00:45:16,844 --> 00:45:18,977
Hilda talks about
being on the stand
714
00:45:19,107 --> 00:45:22,763
and actually being
so upset and nervous.
715
00:45:22,894 --> 00:45:27,246
And, I think that's where
things kind of went bad.
716
00:45:27,376 --> 00:45:29,615
Something happened.
717
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:31,835
For some reason, we could
not even get an indictment
718
00:45:31,859 --> 00:45:34,166
against Sam Little,
719
00:45:34,296 --> 00:45:36,777
which means that there
were gonna be no charges.
720
00:45:36,908 --> 00:45:39,606
Hilda and, Leila,
721
00:45:39,737 --> 00:45:41,521
we failed them, in my opinion.
722
00:45:58,451 --> 00:46:01,082
There was such a
miscarriage of justice
723
00:46:01,106 --> 00:46:03,630
in the cases of Leila McClain
724
00:46:03,761 --> 00:46:06,217
and Hilda Nelson
725
00:46:06,241 --> 00:46:08,940
and also in the murder
of Melinda LaPree.
726
00:46:11,551 --> 00:46:15,337
That's what really,
really eats at me.
727
00:46:15,468 --> 00:46:17,949
Sam Little, he was in custody,
728
00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:20,255
but they said that
they couldn't prosecute
729
00:46:20,386 --> 00:46:23,084
because, the, the only witnesses
730
00:46:23,215 --> 00:46:25,870
were
731
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,176
I remember them saying
"junkies and whores,"
732
00:46:28,307 --> 00:46:30,962
but it was words to that effect,
733
00:46:31,092 --> 00:46:32,940
because that's the sort of,
734
00:46:32,964 --> 00:46:35,053
witness that, you
know, gets shredded
735
00:46:35,183 --> 00:46:37,098
by defense attorneys
and that sort of thing.
736
00:46:37,229 --> 00:46:39,927
You know, it really
angered me deeply.
737
00:46:46,455 --> 00:46:48,390
I don't know.
738
00:46:48,414 --> 00:46:50,590
I don't know if it
was because of,
739
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,593
her occupation.
740
00:46:53,723 --> 00:46:57,640
I don't know if it was because
of the color of her skin.
741
00:46:57,771 --> 00:46:59,571
I'd hate to think that,
because I don't think
742
00:46:59,642 --> 00:47:02,186
we're that kind of
town or community.
743
00:47:02,210 --> 00:47:04,473
I don't know. It's
just one of those...
744
00:47:04,604 --> 00:47:06,444
It's kind of hard to
believe that, you know
745
00:47:09,043 --> 00:47:11,437
that these things
actually happen.
746
00:47:15,397 --> 00:47:17,269
I mean, really,
747
00:47:17,399 --> 00:47:21,447
Leila McClain
summed it up to a T
748
00:47:21,577 --> 00:47:24,948
when she said, "Ain't
nobody gonna believe"
749
00:47:24,972 --> 00:47:27,627
"a Black prostitute in
Pascagoula, Mississippi,
750
00:47:27,757 --> 00:47:29,977
in 1982."
751
00:47:30,108 --> 00:47:32,893
And I can't say it
any better than that,
752
00:47:33,024 --> 00:47:35,654
'cause it's exactly the truth.
753
00:47:43,469 --> 00:47:47,952
I was pretty devastated
by that first conversation
754
00:47:48,082 --> 00:47:51,520
with Sam Little in prison.
755
00:47:51,651 --> 00:47:53,653
It's pretty nerve-racking.
756
00:47:53,783 --> 00:47:57,483
It has a physical effect on you.
757
00:47:59,137 --> 00:48:03,358
I was feeling pretty sick of him
758
00:48:03,489 --> 00:48:05,336
and his lies.
759
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,209
I decided, "I'm gonna visit him"
760
00:48:08,233 --> 00:48:10,626
"in prison again
761
00:48:10,757 --> 00:48:14,021
because these victims'
stories are too important."
762
00:48:14,152 --> 00:48:17,827
And I was determined to
get Sam to admit the truth.
763
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:28,775
I talked to Hilda, who
testified at your trial.
764
00:48:31,125 --> 00:48:33,060
Did she?
765
00:48:33,084 --> 00:48:35,149
Did she really lie?
766
00:48:35,173 --> 00:48:37,847
I knew that he was lying.
767
00:48:37,871 --> 00:48:39,699
I decided,
768
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:41,788
"If he lies to me again,
769
00:48:41,919 --> 00:48:44,549
I'm done, I'm out."
770
00:48:44,573 --> 00:48:46,812
I'm like, I'm not gonna sit there
771
00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:50,014
and listen to him bullshit
772
00:48:50,144 --> 00:48:54,366
about these crimes and
murders I know he committed.
773
00:48:54,496 --> 00:48:55,976
You tell me the truth right now.
774
00:48:56,107 --> 00:48:57,847
You did not hit Hilda?
775
00:49:02,852 --> 00:49:04,811
Sam Little is a psychopath,
776
00:49:04,942 --> 00:49:08,249
so every interaction he has
777
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:11,078
is transactional, right?
778
00:49:11,209 --> 00:49:13,491
It means, like, "I'll
give you something,
779
00:49:13,515 --> 00:49:15,691
you give me something."
780
00:49:15,822 --> 00:49:18,148
And he started
trying to work me,
781
00:49:18,172 --> 00:49:21,741
and, um, you know,
"I want this, I want that.
782
00:49:21,871 --> 00:49:24,700
I want canteen
money. I want a TV."
783
00:49:24,831 --> 00:49:27,007
And I said,
784
00:49:27,138 --> 00:49:31,814
"I-I-I-I want things, too, Sam."
785
00:49:31,838 --> 00:49:35,407
It was just this moment
786
00:49:35,537 --> 00:49:37,887
where we were, like, frozen
787
00:49:38,018 --> 00:49:40,412
and eyes locked,
788
00:49:40,542 --> 00:49:43,893
and I know that he
knew that I was out
789
00:49:44,024 --> 00:49:47,593
if he didn't start talking.
790
00:49:47,723 --> 00:49:50,204
And he was like,
791
00:49:50,335 --> 00:49:53,468
"Okay, you got me.
792
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:55,719
What do you want to know
for your book, little miss?"
793
00:49:59,344 --> 00:50:01,824
Yeah, I want you to
tell me a little story.
794
00:50:25,718 --> 00:50:30,114
It took me a minute to realize
795
00:50:30,244 --> 00:50:32,203
he's confessing.
796
00:50:55,269 --> 00:50:57,054
So you didn't mean to kill her?
797
00:51:06,193 --> 00:51:08,282
"With that, he began to tell me
798
00:51:08,413 --> 00:51:10,763
"about the women he had killed.
799
00:51:10,893 --> 00:51:13,157
"With astonishing detail
800
00:51:13,287 --> 00:51:15,898
"and near photographic recall,
801
00:51:16,029 --> 00:51:18,118
"he took me back
through his past,
802
00:51:18,249 --> 00:51:20,512
"when the road was his home
803
00:51:20,642 --> 00:51:23,819
"and the back alleys
and underbelly bars
804
00:51:23,950 --> 00:51:27,625
"in city after city
across the country
805
00:51:27,649 --> 00:51:31,392
offered a feast of
low-hanging fruit."
806
00:51:34,787 --> 00:51:38,288
When Sam first started
confessing to me,
807
00:51:38,312 --> 00:51:40,836
then it was like the
floodgates opened,
808
00:51:40,967 --> 00:51:43,274
and he told me
about another one,
809
00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:47,321
and another one
810
00:51:50,455 --> 00:51:51,456
another one
811
00:51:55,721 --> 00:51:56,721
another one.
812
00:52:00,465 --> 00:52:03,207
He told me about
13 murders that day.
813
00:52:27,361 --> 00:52:30,538
Just to sit there a
foot from this person
814
00:52:30,669 --> 00:52:33,802
who is talking about
this so dismissively,
815
00:52:33,933 --> 00:52:36,370
I felt a rage
816
00:52:36,501 --> 00:52:40,983
unlike anything I've ever felt.
817
00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:45,379
I wasn't shocked because
818
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:48,489
I'm not shocked
819
00:52:48,513 --> 00:52:53,257
that there's this, like
820
00:52:53,387 --> 00:52:56,956
casual and vicious violence
821
00:52:57,086 --> 00:52:58,610
against women.
822
00:53:00,177 --> 00:53:01,613
I've seen it.
823
00:53:01,743 --> 00:53:03,180
I know it.
824
00:53:04,703 --> 00:53:07,053
I want to know why.
825
00:53:07,184 --> 00:53:10,187
Why? Why, and how?
826
00:53:13,015 --> 00:53:15,192
Once she started
visiting Sam in prison,
827
00:53:15,322 --> 00:53:17,629
that really awoke a lot
828
00:53:17,759 --> 00:53:19,587
of different kind
of demons in her.
829
00:53:19,718 --> 00:53:22,349
There was just no way of telling
830
00:53:22,373 --> 00:53:24,853
what the story was
gonna grow into
831
00:53:24,984 --> 00:53:27,552
and-and the effect
it would have on us
832
00:53:27,682 --> 00:53:30,207
and how immense
833
00:53:30,337 --> 00:53:32,687
the power and
destruction of this man was
834
00:53:32,818 --> 00:53:34,796
when we started.
835
00:53:38,389 --> 00:53:42,654
I feel connected to
these women's stories.
836
00:53:42,784 --> 00:53:44,917
I can imagine the last moments
837
00:53:45,047 --> 00:53:46,614
of these women's lives
838
00:53:46,745 --> 00:53:49,400
and that they were
dismissed and invisible
839
00:53:49,530 --> 00:53:51,619
for all of these years.
840
00:53:56,145 --> 00:53:58,191
And Samuel Little
841
00:53:58,322 --> 00:54:02,239
was the only one
who held these stories.
842
00:54:02,369 --> 00:54:05,957
And I was like, "You
are not entitled to this."
843
00:54:05,981 --> 00:54:08,419
Like, "You don't
get to have this."
844
00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:11,378
And there are many
more unidentified victims
845
00:54:11,509 --> 00:54:12,640
out there.
846
00:54:16,340 --> 00:54:18,579
We go to the sheriff office,
847
00:54:18,603 --> 00:54:20,387
and he tells us,
848
00:54:20,518 --> 00:54:22,235
"Well, you know, if-if
y'all want to find out
849
00:54:22,259 --> 00:54:23,738
"who killed her so bad,
850
00:54:23,869 --> 00:54:26,785
why don't y'all
just go find out?"
851
00:54:26,915 --> 00:54:28,830
I don't feel
852
00:54:28,961 --> 00:54:31,137
that she was important enough
853
00:54:31,268 --> 00:54:34,575
to them to investigate.
854
00:54:34,706 --> 00:54:36,447
It broke my heart.
855
00:54:40,451 --> 00:54:43,802
My mother was taken
from us from an evil person
856
00:54:43,932 --> 00:54:47,284
who shouldn't even be living.
857
00:54:47,414 --> 00:54:49,677
After my sister was murdered,
858
00:54:49,808 --> 00:54:52,376
it just started eating me alive.
859
00:54:52,506 --> 00:54:53,942
I came very close
860
00:54:54,073 --> 00:54:55,814
to taking my own life.
861
00:54:59,121 --> 00:55:02,473
We have limited time.
862
00:55:02,603 --> 00:55:06,583
Sam Little, he's an
old man. He's not well.
863
00:55:06,607 --> 00:55:09,393
And when he dies,
864
00:55:09,523 --> 00:55:13,266
many of these unsolved
cases will die with him.
865
00:55:13,397 --> 00:55:16,574
I will never rest
866
00:55:16,704 --> 00:55:20,554
until I can restore the names
867
00:55:20,578 --> 00:55:23,015
of these victims.
868
00:55:23,145 --> 00:55:25,974
How many women have you killed?
869
00:55:26,105 --> 00:55:27,865
I want the truth.
870
00:55:27,889 --> 00:55:28,889
I think that...
62150
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