All language subtitles for Robert.Williams.Mr.Bitchin.2010.1080p.WEBRip.x265-RARBG.eng

[ Background Noise ]

>> I've gotten to where
I'm starting to use purple.

I was going try to
conquer the use of purple.

Purple is a very
difficult color.

It can be very dramatic, but
if it's used incorrectly,

it makes the painting look weak.

So you've got to know
how to use purple.

Purple is really a touchy one.

[ Music ]

There used to be a color
of brown at one time,

turn of the century
called "Mummy Brown."

Have you heard a mummy brown?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's made
up of ground up mummies.

[ Background Noise ]

Isn't this thrilling?

[ Background Noise ]

This is what my days
have been comprised

of before you were born.

[ Background Noise ]

>> Yeah.

>> Let's see, it's a 2, 2010.

OK, you've been --

>> Great. Thank you.

>> My pleasure.

Thank you very much for coming.

Thanks for coming
all the way out here.

I appreciate it, Fred.

>> Okay. No problem.

I'd be here.

>> Yeah. How are you
doing, Josephine?

Look at that kid,
bigger every minute.

>> You've got a line out
the driveway, people get --

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> That's what I
fuckin' want to hear.

>> Yeah.

[ Laughter ]

I didn't talk to my
father in like 15 years,

or something, you know.

He says, "Well, you
turned out pretty good."

I told him, "Well, you
know, I didn't turn

out to be a criminal
or anything."

He says, "Well no, but if
you'd have been somebody

like John Dillinger, you know,
I'd still been proud of you."

And I said, "Dad, in my
field I am John Dillinger.

"

[ Music ]

>> I would like to be like a
big rock star and I'd like to be

like real prestigious like
Salvador Dali, you know,

and just -- I could act
any silly way I wanted.

That isn't rational to the
way I have to make a living.

If I put on those kind of
airs, then I'd be such an ass,

no one would take
my work serious

that I busted my ass to do.

[ Music ]

I used to be a truck driver.

You know, I used to be a
short order cook, you know,

a forklift operator,
I herded cattle.

You know, I've been in
jail a bunch of times.

You know, I am that person.

[ Music ]

We're going to -- we're
going to come out.

>> We're going to turn around --

>> We're going to go --

>> Go inside and come out.

>> We'll come out to the door.

>> And come up here.

>> We're going to
stand right here

and we'll wait till
you wave, okay?

>> What? For what?

>> We're rolling now.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Drive around and
come on back.

[ Music ]

>> Hello. I'm Robert Williams.

This is my wife, Suzanne.

>> Hi.

>> What? Do you?

>> Hi.

>> Hi. I'm Robert Williams.

This is my wife, Suzanne.

And this is our lovely
American tract home.

>> I'm waiting for
him to speak first.

Should I say "hi" first or not?

I can't figure out
what to do here.

>> You say nothing until
I say, introduce you

and then you say "hi".

>> Well then walk with me.

I don't want to stand here --

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> -- and like have
nothing to say.

>> Howdy. I'm Robert Williams.

This is my wife, Suzanne.

>> Hi. I'm Suzanne Williams.

This is my husband, Robert.

This is our beautiful
tract house.

>> Yeah, that I'm
allowed to live in.

>> The American dream.

Oh fuck you, you know --

>> The success that me
and Suzanne have had is

because we haven't
got in trouble.

Getting divorced and
borrowing too much money

and having bankruptcy,
and you know,

and all these things will
drag you down, you know.

My business, a painting, off
the wall paintings is one

of the least ways of success.

I mean, I'm really
sticking my neck out

but I don't stick my neck out
in anything else, you know.

Hello, I'm Robert Williams.

This is my wife, Suzanne.

>> Hello.

>> And this is our lovely
American tract home.

>> Cool.

>> Did I get American in --

>> No. That was perfect.

>> Okay.

>> Robert was really
an historian, you know,

that was one of the neat
things about being around him.

We'd talk about different
things and he'd teach me a lot

of things that I
didn't even know about.

[ Music ]

>> That's the Piltdown Man.

>> Did you ever take
anthropology

or paleoanthropology?

>> No.

>> Do you know anything about
cave men, Neanderthal man?

You got a college
education, right?

You don't know anything about
cave man, Cro-Magnon man

or Australopithecines.

Do you know anything
about those?

No?

>> Not really.

>> I was afraid of that.

In the 19th century, late
1800s, Europe was abuzz

over the finds of
prehistoric man.

First and most important
fossils to be recognized are

of course the Neanderthal man
in Neander Valley in Germany.

And then later the French
found the Cro-Magnon man.

So England not to be outdone,
had to come up with something.

So, ironically, an old
individual found the fossils

of a human skull and
Piltdown, England.

The fossils that
they had indicated

that they had what could be
considered a missing link,

the most intelligent of all
the prehistoric man fossils.

Immediately the authorities in
England jumped on the bandwagon

and substantiated the
proof of this find.

But in 1953, carbon dating
proved the skull in reality

to be a complete hoax.

But in that span of
time from 1912 and 1953,

a lot of supposition
and bullshit was made

about the Piltdown Man.

And what I've done is I
portrayed this ideal Piltdown

Man as chroniclers would have
liked who have presented him.

I've got in the central panel
the Piltdown Man throwing a

mammoth because he
was superhuman.

He had not only intelligence
but enormous strength.

Up here, I've got a nice
portrait of the Piltdown Man

and it says up here, "O Piltdown
buzz, the man that never was."

Over here, I've displayed

in cartoon paneling,
some satires on him.

Here we have a little skunk

in a devil costume indicating
this whole thing stinks

with a little bucket of fish
saying "Something's fishy".

Up here, we've got
a projected ideal

of how intelligent
the Piltdown Man was.

In other words, he could
actually conduct himself

properly in a social
surrounding.

Okay, down here, we're
portraying the Piltdown Man

as he actually fit into
human scheme of philosophy.

In other words, if you
look at the panoply

of all our fantasy characters,
he fits in there perfectly.

>> Is it really important
like for you

to educate your audience --

>> No.

>> -- in the context or --

>> No. It would be
nice to generate enough

of a pictorial interest
that people

who would investigate
what this is all about.

>> So in a way, you're

like teaching people
whatever you can.

>> But I'm not trying
to teach people.

I'm trying to find people

who already know to
blow their minds.

[ Music ]

My mother always wanted a boy

and she says the reason
she wanted a boy was

because she always
wanted a cowboy,

wanted a son to be a cowboy.

And right out of the shoot
man, I couldn't stand cowboys.

I couldn't stand them.

Later on, you know, when
I had to work cattle,

and I worked my granddad's
ranch and I had

to actually spend the whole day
with riding a horse chasing cows

around and running them
15 miles down the road

to the railroad head and stuff,
it was like hard work and I --

like I really hated horses.

I had to get up early
in the morning

and go chase those horses
down and put a saddle on them.

Horses have no compassion and
horses just don't like people.

You know, horses
don't make good pets.

I guess you can get horses and
you can condition them to act

like they're sweet, but
a horse, from the get-go,

although you've broken it in,
just doesn't care for you.

And it only even --
tell you that it does.

Don't let young girls that love
horses tell you how horses love

back, because they
fucking don't.

It's like loving a cat and the
only thing that keeps that cat

from not eating you is its size,
you know, you're -- you're --

you're sweetest cat in
the world, you know,

if it was big enough, would
just immediately eat you.

Whoa. My fascination as a
child was not to be a cowboy,

but to be a crusader, you know,

I saw the 1936 Cecil B.
DeMille movie of the crusader

and it just flipped me out.

As a child, I wanted to
be a crusader, you know,

I wanted to wear armour
and ride a horse, you know.

That was my calling.

[ Music ]

My mother was an Indiana
Yankee in contrast

to my father being
a Georgia Cracker.

We had a large cattle ranch

and we would always keep
the meat lockers full

of the best beef.

You know, my life was fairly
secure, but I had to fit

in to a certain Christian
parameter.

The thing I reacted
against was the constraint

and the conformity that my
Christian upbringing imposed

on me.

That was not my cup of tea, I --

I always liked to use
foul language and drink

and raise hell and --
and I did it to an access

of what would be
acceptable in that group.

I had a little too much
character to conform to that

and I would be offensive
to those people.

'Cause I tried it -- I tried
to conform when I was young,

I did but I just realized
that when I got older,

I had to express myself
other than just being quiet.

Now when I -- my parents
got divorced, it was a --

it was an epiphany up the
ass, an epiphany up the ass.

[ Music ]

Going from being
well-to-do in a rich

or upper middle class family
down to living with my mother

on the streets of Albuquerque,
and living very desperately,

gave me a -- a very good vista
of what life's all about.

My father taught me
to be a gentleman.

How to conduct myself
around sophisticated people.

From my second life
as a street rebel,

I really developed a
sense of streetwise

that I never had in Alabama.

When I was young, my mother left
me in the care of the landlady,

a Lieutenant in the Air Force
and she had a girl friend.

For, a year or so I was in the
care of this lesbian couple.

They were the kind of a core
of a whole liberal scene

that was involved around
the Air Force base.

I'd already had enough male
influence from my dad who was

like chronically macho,
you know, a really balls

to the wall type human being.

It was good that I didn't
have my dad around too

because this is when I was
like flaming and crying.

I'm coming out with
this personality,

it was like completely
diametrically opposed

to his conservative values.

[ Music ]

I decided to go to art school
in 1963 to Los Angeles.

I really like Southern
California, I'm not here

by accident, you know,
I moved here on purpose.

I love to be around people with
capability of having abstract,

but protracted imaginations.

You know, and you can -- the
only people you could find

like that in Albuquerque
or the deep south

or somewhere are people
who were like right

on the edge of being criminals.

[ Music ]

It was Los Angeles that
started the hot rides.

It was the West Coast
that started the image

of outlaw bikers and Hollister.

It was the West Coast
in San Francisco

that started the
psychedelic poster movement.

It was San Francisco

that started the underground
comic book movement.

It was the movie industry here

and the pornography
industry here

that generated a
certain attitude.

Skateboarding started out here,
tattooing was very popular

out here first and that
started with Don Ed Hardy.

The West Coast was holding all
the cards and no one knew why.

You go back East, you go back
to New England and New York

and you're stuck in
a world that seems

like it's still being
held on by Europe.

[ Music ]

>> In the late teens
and all through the 20s,

before the Depression, the auto
racing world went to extremes

in building enormous
high banked race tracks.

There were about 30 of
these tracks built all

over the United States.

One of the early ones was built
in 1920 right in the middle

of what is now Beverly
Hills, California.

This track was located
right where Wilshire

and Santa Monica
Boulevard meet right now.

Some of the finest drivers
in cars in the world raced

on these board tracks.

It was a very expensive
affair and the crowds

that attended were 60
to 70 thousand people.

On Thanksgiving Day in 1920,

they were having
a major race there

and there was a horrible
accident

that killed three drivers.

One of the drivers
was Gaston Chevrolet,

the brother of Louis Chevrolet.

My purpose of this painting
was to appeal to young people

that this exciting
world did exist right

under their noses here
in California and all

across the United States.

There were two forms of cars.

This is the Frontenac
with a flower pedal nose

and that is a Duesenberg.

Now over here I show three
dead drivers coming up out

of their graves, tearing these
cars apart as a symbol of doom,

a gorilla-shaped monster that's
done in abstract cartoon style

and both its hands and legs are
twisting race cars causing the

death of Lyall Jolls, Eddie
O'Donnell and Gaston Chevrolet.

And then I've got a poignant
vignette here, a little tableau.

We've got a flag man knocking
three chessmen off a chess board

indicating their death.

Then we've got a green
race driver in the form

of a devil holding a trophy.

And in his right arm,
he's holding a --

a nude young woman that
represents lady luck.

Green was considered the
color that was bad luck

and after this wreck,
almost nationwide,

green race cars did not
appear in auto racing

for more than 50 years.

I'm very proud of my
interpretative work.

But I want that validated with
the fact that I know every nut

and bolt on these antique cars.

I want to give the impression
that I am responsible

for every brush stroke on this
canvas and I know what I'm doing

to justify the fact that if I
get over here and I get breezy

and I get emotional, I've got
command of the whole situation.

>> Everything about what you
do is like complete romance.

>> Well, yeah, you know, I love
the paintings and the stretch --

do my own stretching, and
they're done with tacks.

And there's like
all these things

that people just don't
do anymore, you know.

It'll just kill me to see
staples, look at the back

of the canvas and see
fucking staples, you know,

and some idiot's going clonk,
clonk, clonk, clonk, clonk.

That would just, that
would break my heart.

[ Music ]

I'll be saving my hand
for -- canvas flowers.

[ Music ]

>> Two here, two there,
two here, two there.

Flows up to the corners they
are about three inches apart

and when that's done,
I'll go all way around it,

filling in the spaces.

[ Music ]

>> If I'd been accepted
right out of art school,

I've been pulled right
down in the mire,

never got anywhere, you know.

We always had to like
fight off of the side,

create my own audience
and then figuring out --

>> Even now you have your own
audience, you're still fighting.

>> I do have a very
small art following,

but my little following does
understand exactly what the

hell's happening and they
understand how I evolved

and what affects
-- influences --

brought about the
material that I do.

When I came into art, cartoons
were not considered art

but the cartoon is
really the point

of where you can do the most
exaggeration and, you know,

really test and strain
your imagination.

>> Cartoon is a very peculiar

and very unique thing
in American culture.

You know, one thing that defined
America at the turn the century

and to this day,
were the funnies.

The so-called funnies invented
a certain way of telling a story

which didn't really exist
in European tradition.

It was a new way
of telling a story.

>> When you look at my
artwork, what you're looking

at is you're looking at about
40 or 50 years of going back

through EC Comic books, Exact
comics and Hot Rod Magazine.

You've gone clear back to Pulp
Magazine illustrators using

that energy that's been denied
for all this period of time

and has been lost
often abstract art.

>> In Robert's language, there
are a cast of characters.

You don't have that in
most artists' works.

His work is very rich with
a thousand and one sceneries

and places and a thousand
and one different,

bizarre and perverse events.

In a way, his work
is a lot closer

to the world of a magician.

There's a bit of magic
that's taking place.

But maybe more like a
story telling writer.

[ Music ]

>> My name is Artie Shaw
and I used to lead a band.

[ Music ]

>> People are comfortable
with the familiar.

So if you get up on the
stage and you act differently

than what they expect you to,
it's outrageous, everyone.

In my business a
big thing happened

when Charlie Parker came along.

He changed the face of jazz.

The seminal figure had
been Louis Armstrong.

And Charlie came along
and changed that.

What happened as a result was --

a spate of Charlie Parker
clones, that isn't good.

I think the important thing
to recognize about a musician,

performer, and this applies
to art as well, is if you look

at an art gallery and you
know anything about painting

and across the wall, 50 feet
away, there's a Modigliani,

there's a Gauguin, there's
Cezanne and there's a Monet.

You can see who they
are, if you know,

you know without going near
the canvas, who painted that.

I would recognize that Robert
William's painting almost

anywhere and that's
pretty good right there.

He's got his own thumb
print, so to speak.

>> The important
thing is to come

up with an idea that's
never come up before.

It -- I don't want
even a bad idea,

that's never been
come up with before.

>> No reasonable man could
do anything like say Watson

and Crick with the DNA.

A reasonable man could
not do what Einstein did.

You have to be unreasonable.

You have to say, "I
don't agree with that.

Everybody in the
world says that true.

I don't think so."

And you go out and
break all the rules.

But you do know the
rules, you'll learn them.

Once you know them, you
know what to do about it.

[ Music ]

Robert paints paintings that are
sometimes deliberately offensive

painters are artists that
are busily trying to explain

to themselves what
it's all about,

what the world is all about.

Robert's work speaks for itself.

They -- there's a picture
of somebody doing something.

You know what it is and a
lot of people can't stand it

because it looks like something.

He mirrors the present-day
culture of America.

He mirrors it pretty accurately,
and he paints a lot of things

that are not particularly
pleasant,

but the whole world
is not so pleasant.

>> I'm not accepted
as a blue chip artist.

And there's every indication
I probably never will be.

>> Bob is intent upon success.

And I've been trying to point
out to him he's got success.

He's very well known.

He paints.

He's got a good marriage.

He's got a good life.

What more can you want?

But he's got that American
thinking, he's an American boy

and he's grown up in America
and we're told that you have

to have success with dollar
signs instead of ecstasy.

He's brought in to
that inferiority myth

that the wise acre
is thrust upon you.

The critics will make
people like Jackson Pollock.

I would daresay that almost
99 and four tenths percent,

like Ivory Soap, of the owners

of Jackson Pollocks can't tell
you what they bought it for.

Except that it's
a Jackson Pollock

and it's worth a lot of money.

I don't think that has
anything to do with the art.

Most people who are
collectors don't care about art.

They care about owning something
nobody else can have 'cause it

cost too much.

I got out of the music business
'cause the audience would not

support me anymore in the
things I was trying to do.

I finally found myself choosing

between do what they
want or do what you want.

Any artist with any halfway
reasonable meaning has got

to arrive at the place where he
does exactly what he wants to do

and whether the people will like
it or not, should be irrelevant.

Somebody wants to find the
success as a 90 percent loser.

That's pretty good.

10 percent winner in our day
was -- that's a lot of winning.

[ Music ]

>> I got into Hot Rod because
after the Second World War was

over, you couldn't buy a car.

All the cars had been
melted down and made tanks

for them to go to Africa.

They made like 5,000
tanks to get around a lot

of the African desert.

All our Model As and all our
Model Ts went into those tanks.

Whenever I talk a look at those
tanks, I say, well there must be

like 20 Model Ts
in there, you know.

There was no cars after the war.

And we had to go to
the junkyards and dig

out an engine here,
a fender here

and just weld together what we
could do and everybody did that.

>> These are classic Hot Rods.

Both are 32 Fords.

This is a 32 Ford Roadster.

This is a 32 Ford Coupe.

These are what's
referred to as Deuces,

part of my little America Dream.

>> A Hot Rod is really
an abstract thing

when you think about it.

It's far out thing.

You're taking this old, dead
car, that's really an antiquity

that should either be
left alone or thrown away,

and you're completely gutting it

and you're putting
a big power plant.

So this thing is fast if not
much faster than anything else

on the street and
it's dangerous.

>> Radiator used to blow

up because it had
these powerful engines

where only a little
4-cylinder should be.

They had big V8's now.

I spent a lot of
time in high school

in the garage putting these big
engines into these little cars

and welding everything
up and making it work.

The nice thing about Hot Rods
is you can customize the Hot Rod

to yourself like I'm
a pretty big guy,

so I need a lot of seating room.

So I'd always make the seats
real big with a lot of leg room.

I can make that car fit
my little particular world

and paint it the color I like.

That's what Hot Rodding is.

You do it to which you like.

>> Well here's my two cars.

A 1934 two door sedan
Hot Rod, kind of a Ford.

It's got Chevy engine.

The other car is
a 1957 Thunderbird

which has basically
been my everyday car

since 1969 when I got it.

[ Music ]

>> I'd done rather
well at City College

and I'd attracted a few
little lady friends and stuff

but no one that could
carry an abstract off

and Suzanne was a remarkable
find, no doubt about that.

She'd be walking along
in these tight blue jeans

with a big T-Square, you know
and people are fighting for her.

>> Really, what did you
have to do to win her?

>> She had a following
of gentleman.

Well it didn't go smoothly.

The situation didn't
go smoothly.

>> Well can you describe it?

>> No, it's not your business.

[ Music ]

Suzanne is very well-educated
and she is a person

of tremendous interest.

She's well read in
astronomy, history,

anthropology, paleontology.

Suzanne is a remarkable person.

Suzanne is always leading me.

You know, she finds
things on television.

She finds interesting
things in life.

She points things
out to me, you know.

Get into abstract conversation
with Suzanne sometime.

You'll discover you'll
be way over your head

when you start getting off on
some weird shit with her 'cause,

you know, she's a
little thinker, you know.

You're not going to
get too dirty for her.

You're not going
to get too far out.

You're not going to get
too mathematical, you know.

I'm fortunate to
be in her company.

[ Music ]

>> I think it was some
bizarre inevitability that Bob

and I would end up together.

We have these two
things in common

that generally don't
go together.

We were both studying art
already before we met.

And we were both into Hot
Rods already before we met.

And at that point in time,

those two things definitely
did not go together.

>> Is Sandy here?

>> Yeah.

>> Well you don't have to
have Sandy back here do you?

>> Well you have
to come outside.

I bought you a present.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. It's a surprise.

>> What is it?

>> Come see.

I bet you can guess.

>> I have no idea.

Oh, I know what exactly
what the fuck it is.

Oh my God.

Oh shit, look at this thing.

>> Now we can go
riding together, huh?

>> Oh baby, oh.

>> I hope you like it.

>> Whatever --

>> It was put together
when Sandy built it.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Is it functional?

>> Oh yeah, it works great.

>> What'd this thing cost?

>> That's none of your business.

>> Can I ride it right now?

>> Yeah, sure.

>> Get your -- ride
yours Suzanne.

>> Open the garage.

>> All right, look at that, huh?

My own sting ray, huh?

>> It feels good.

[ Music ]

[ Background Noise ]

>> Is it working?

>> Did you survive it?

>> Yeah.

>> Did you survive it?

>> Everything but my pride.

>> Ahh.

[ Music ]

>> Knowing what's in the
future, I have no plans,

let's put it that way.

I have no plans beyond driving
my Hot Rod as long as I can.

And painting as long
as I can and trying

to help Bob be the
success he wants to be.

[ Music ]

>> So I was working on coming
up with some ideas on one

of these large paintings,

and I come up with
the theme of delusion.

I wanted to do something
with someone in history

that really suffered
from delusion.

I went through a whole
number of people, famous,

very famous people
but then I popped

in my mind here is King Farouk.

When I was young my mother
bought scandal magazines

that were one digit socially
below movie magazines.

One character that kept
coming back as a star

in these scandal magazines was
the King of Egypt, King Farouk.

[ Music ]

We went to the library and
got everything I could find

on King Farouk.

And it was just as amazing as
I remembered, more amazing.

In reality, the painting
is a comic book story.

In one panel, you got
King Farouk's face.

You've got a central
vignette of a situation

and another situation here,

a stylized suggestion
of an attitude here.

Some kind of prosperous
presentation

of his going-ons here.

And then right here is the
symbolic surrealist image

of delusion itself.

Here, okay, you notice
some writing on here.

While I'm doing the sketches,

I am verbally describing the
painting, working the title

in with the -- with
the paintings.

Coming around in a cloud

of smoke is King Farouk
in a red Cadillac.

So I've got all the
Cadillacs from '49 to '53.

And here they have
the same body stamps.

There's no one picture in
here with that position.

I don't just take this
picture and blow it

up with a lithograph,
call it my painting.

I get a set of dividers

and I measure things
off proportionally

so I know what's what.

You know, this is called
being a technical draftsman --

what used to be part of art.

This is what allows me to do
airplanes and cars and machinery

and architecture
and anything else.

The different angles rather
than just like many artists do

with what they could
steal, you know,

and make their entire
fucking world their clipart.

[ Music ]

>> All right.

So, you got a couple of
good sentences in that.

And let's say again.

>> My.

[ Laughter ]

>> "My" is a nice
say to say "fuck".

I like all these real soft
expletives like "gee".

And I find myself in my old
age now saying "gosh", "golly".

>> Gee whiz.

Why are you saying that?

>> Why am I saying that?

>> I'm afraid because
I'm getting old.

Unfortunately I've been
attracted to shit like that.

But I don't -- I'll outgrow it.

[ Music ]

Becoming an artist was too
much for me to deal with.

It was too much for
me to deal with.

I had no peer group.

There's no jobs for an artist

that did what I did other
than an illustrator.

Things didn't look good.

Out of desperation, I
took this white collar job

as an executive aspirant for
a warehousing corporation.

And I had to appear there in
the morning with a suit and tie

and deal with people that I
wasn't suited to deal with.

I worked there in the day
and the night, would drag ass

and got up and try
to get to work

with a straight look on my face.

And it was like obviously not
my kind of work, you know.

So after six months they fired
me from there and had to go back

down to the unemployment
agency, face all this again.

And then when I got a job for
Roth my world just opened up,

you know I just blossomed
like a mortar shell, you know.

>> I thought you were
going to say a water lily.

>> You did huh?

A water lily.

[ Music ]

>> Ed Roth had a
phenomenal mind.

I don't think people today
realize how brilliant the

guy was.

He was so far ahead of his time
and he knew what people wanted.

>> I was looking for somebody
full time 'cause I was doing all

my stuff freelance to people.

And I needed somebody
there to direct them.

>> This very sensitive
trained artist would go down.

They looked at property although
it was filthy with car parts

and bikers and one
thing or another

and they would just turn
their nose up at it.

Boy, it was just made for me.

Think up your perfect job.

Well I work for a very
big guy and I want it

for this amount of money.

That's not going to happen.

So it happened.

>> He was really a
bedraggled-looking person.

He looked like he was
out of the Skid Row.

And his car was a disaster.

>> That car had a knack
for people running into it.

>> 'Cause the whole thing
was dented in, one big dent.

>> One time, I'm sitting there
in a stop sign with Suzanne

and we're watching this lady
come swing around, you know,

I'm "oh no, she's going to run
into us" she just ran right

into the front of the car.

Bam, we're looking
at each other's eyes.

>> When he came in and showed
me this beautiful picture,

that he said he drew, I said
in my own mind I said, "Now,

hey this guy could never
have drawn anything

like that because, you know,
he was really not the type

of person that would paint
a picture that gorgeous".

So I told him, I said "You go
home and you draw me a picture

of a '54 Plymouth doing a
wheelie with a Rat Fink in it

and so you bring
it back tomorrow".

Because I knew nobody
could draw that quick

and I thought well
I'm rid of this guy.

I don't have to put up with that
kind of nonsense, so he did.

He went home and he drew that.

And the next day he came
back it was just another

gorgeous picture.

>> When I took the job with Roth
in '65, Ed Newton preceded me.

He's the one that designed
all of Roth's characters

when you Rat Fink and stuff
that's the guy that designed it.

I replaced him 'cause this
guy went out on his own

and I got the next job.

That's how I got
to be art director.

>> When Robert first started
working there I couldn't really

figure out how I was going
to deal with the person

that had long hair
'cause Hot Rodders,

they never had long hair.

They used to comb their hair
in what they call a duck butt.

It was always shaved
in the back.

And I had to deal with it.

It was a big mental
thing for me.

Then when he started drawing his
ads, the concept of these ads,

I would have to come
along and say "Look,

we can't do this
gray area stuff".

>> Peterson Publishing
sent a list of don'ts.

I had a list of don'ts.

No open wounds, no bodily
fluids, no warts, no reference

to mother, no reference
to God, on and on and on.

I was stuck with
this whole big thing.

The last year I worked at
Roth's, I did no drawing at all

because the magazine said
we won't accept any ads

with this guy's illustrations
in them.

There's a thing about
ugly and distastefulness.

It's really an anesthetic
in itself

and it's always got
to be played.

I try to play the ugliest
colors in the deck.

Pink against dark green,
purple against orange.

Things that hurt.

When you look around,
you go "oh, oh".

And then I would just play
that card 'cause here you --

man that feeling, that
cold feeling you get

like someone slipping
an ice cube up your ass.

[ Music ]

>> When I was working for
Roth, I met Stanley Mouse.

Stanley Mouse was a
competitor at Roth's.

He painted T-shirts
at car shows, too.

But later on, Mouse
went to San Francisco

and became a full-fledged
hippie bohemian, smoking dope

and getting on the cover
of Ramparts Magazine

and being quite the liberal.

Well I hit it off real
well with Stanley Mouse,

and this was right when Mouse
was starting doing psychedelic

rock posters.

>> A lot of people don't

like the word psychedelic 'cause
it reminds them of lava lamps

or something that they did or
didn't like about the '60s.

It's actually a pretty good
label for the art form.

>> Psychedelic drug taking

in the early '60s wasn't
like drug taking now.

And it wasn't like
drug taking before.

I remember when LSD came out.

People started getting LSD.

That was like a wonderful
adventure.

That was an exciting expedition.

You know, the word "trip"
was not by accident.

You know the word
"trip" had a validity.

You were going somewhere
that nobody had ever been.

This thing about the
Psychedelic art movement

out of the '60s was
it ran color and shape

and intensity all the way
to the top of the register.

Pinks against purples and
chartreuses against blues

and what not, you know.

That had never been done before.

It gave license to
doing things ridiculous.

It was justified because it
was done by people taking drugs

and they're irrational and from

that evolved the
underground economy.

These underground
California worlds were

virtually inseparable.

They were so akin just like
the people that do artwork

on the bottom of the
skateboards and the people

that do wall graffiti.

They're just so akin
it's unbelievable.

[ Music ]

>> There's a large facet
of society of human beings

that have no capacity
for anything

like oblique or abstract
thought.

And there's a good
reason for this and it's

because anything anomalous
means you have a problem.

When you're talking with someone
and the person starts talking

in tongues or talking
incoherently, you're talking

with someone with a problem.

We live in a society of
people that fear anomaly.

Developing the abstract mind
is something that's just really

starting new.

[ Music ]

>> You hear with your anus.

Your pelvis turns the thing
and your feet turns the thing.

Your hands don't do anything
but keep you balanced.

[ Music ]

I started when I was about 14
and I used to be good at it.

>> When Bob and I got together
he knew how ride the unicycle.

I took that as a challenge.

I had to learn.

>> I'm only going to bloody
myself once here, you know,

so you better be
at the grandstand.

[ Music ]

>> Here comes Suzanne.

Look a here.

Look at this girl ride.

[ Music ]

>> We used to live in Hollywood
and we'd take LSD and get

on unicycles and just ride
the streets on unicycles.

When Suzanne rides,
she sprains her arm

and a cop car pulls up to her.

We were like on acid.

People don't know
you're on acid.

You know, you can't just walk up
to the police and ask directions

and you're flaming,
man, you know?

I ride over to the side of the
door of the driver, the cop.

Walk up to the cop car
with a unicycle on my hand,

I said "Now officer don't
tell me it's against the law

to ride unicycles here on
Bryant Street", you know.

And the cop's put back, you
know, he says "Oh no, no,

we just saw her waving her arms

and thought she was
being assaulted".

We laughed about
that for a minute

and I told the cop I'll
show you a few tricks.

And then I did a couple
of tricks for them

and they drove off and we
were just raving on acid

because a little LSD
wasn't outlawed until later.

It was frowned on by society

and it was obvious it
was going to be outlawed.

But it hadn't been outlawed yet.

And you're on new territory that
your generation was the first

to walk in so it
was a real thrill.

[ Music ]

>> Did you get that on camera?

[ Music ]

>> 1968, a musician with The
Holy Modal Rounders named Peter

Stampfel showed me a Zap Comic.

And this was Zap Number 2.

And this ignited me.

[ Music ]

>> My first appearance in
Zap was in Zap 4 in 1969.

There were seven artists in Zap
so we set kind of our own style.

Me and Victor Moscoso,
Rick Griffin

and S. Clay Wilson
were visual artists.

Gilbert Shelton, Spain
Rodriguez and I guess Crumb

to a certain extent
took a great deal

of pride in story structure.

There was a psychedelic
drug psychosis

that we really enjoyed
exercising.

All of us had our fine arts
backgrounds to a certain extent.

This mixed with the
comic book world

that we knew was
plant food for us.

>> Look at these things now,

you don't think anything
about them, see?

'Cause they're out of context.

They're just nothing now.

They're out of context.

But when that stuff hit,
it's just like in 1953

when that first Mad Comic come
out man, I also was a little kid

and I about shit my pants.

I -- whoa!

You know, it was just
unbelievably far out.

The word Mad was not a joke.

It bordered on a mental illness.

It played on psychosis.

I realized here's some
people in New York

that did these comic books, man,

their mind is just
way out there.

I want to be like that.

I had that same feeling
when I saw

that first Zap Comic,
man this is flipped.

These people have no
consideration or care

about the social mores.

Now that is so bitching

that they would dare do
something that's published

and printed, that's circulated.

It's so flipped out,
it's so disrespectful

to the fucking society
we're in, you know.

And it's such a beautiful,
wonderful virtue.

[ Music ]

In 1969, I needed an early
30s style cartoon character

who would have all
the characteristics

of a traditional, already
established Max Flasher

or Walt Disney character.

But the thing with
Coochie Cootie was instead

of a child's character, he was
an adult cartoon character.

He dealt in a world of sex and
violence and jealousy and greed.

And he had all the shortcomings
that most human beings have,

bordering right on
being a felon.

A prisoner made this in
solitary confinement.

>> Was it a friend
of yours or was it --

>> I never met the guy
in my life and it was

like a letter and stuff.

>> Do you have the letter?

>> Well sure.

Dear Mr. Williams, how are you?

Fine I hope.

My name is such and such.

I am currently serving
time in a Texas prison.

I have been a fan, and
admirer of you and your artwork

for 30 years and I make paper
sculptures here in the cell.

I am sending you one I
did based on your drawings

and paintings of Coochie Cootie.

I made the frame
with copper wire

and used pulp from newspapers.

I hope you enjoy it.

P.S. Here is a good luck
devil's head you can hang

on your rear view mirror of
your Hot Rod or something.

Two sculptures enclosed and
then it gives the prison number.

>> That's a sweet letter.

>> It's a nice letter huh?

>> Can I see that skull?

The devil head?

>> The devil head, see.

[ Pause ]

[ Music ]

>> This is Pleiku 250
miles north of Saigon.

The air base that was ripped by
Vietnamese communist guerillas.

>> And you have understand
about underground comics.

They were born in a very
tense and restless period

of time during the Vietnam War.

The Vietnam War was the
very critical changing point

for America.

To understand the Vietnam War,

you had to understand
the United States

in the '50s and early '60s.

It was very constipated,
constrained society we live in.

It had definite rights
and wrong.

There was a lot of bigotry
and society was very,

very inhibiting to
people with imagination.

When the Vietnam War comes,
this brewing underground world

of drugs and whatnot that had
been suppressed immediately

raised to the top in
the form of a bohemia.

About 1967 or '68 for the first
time in the history of humanity,

there was more young
people than old people.

Now you take that
for granted now.

But then, it was one
big changing point.

So I am a member of the
first youth movement.

It was my generation that
realized, "hey we have power.

And we're going to use that
power to stop that goddamn war".

Almost all of the youth
culture in one way

or another did something
in the direction

of showing their resentment

to the U.S. Government
after the late '60s.

[ Music ]

>> There was in my mind a
serious cosmological model.

And I saw and I still to
a certain extent presume

that the physical nature of the
universe was like a Mobious band

and the inside is the outside.

There's not like an end to
the universe 'cause it's,

inside is the outside.

[ Music ]

I did a painting called
"Riding a Dead Horse

in a Dream within a Dream.

I not only entered the
fourth dimension of time

but I entered the fifth
dimension of split dimensions.

Fifth dimension, you can get
in and suggest situations

that can't be categorized like
two situations simultaneously

that can't be in the same place.

This very vaguely
describes five dimensions.

So you've got a receding
one to back here.

This is suggesting a situation
and it transcends over here.

So this is like a real
elementary suggestion

of five dimensions.

You get off under that
foggy area of things going

through things and whatnot

and you lose your
audience pretty quickly.

[ Music ]

You think you know what I mean

like I think I know I
know what I said, right?

[ Music ]

Always, when I worked for
Roth, I was always focused

on becoming a noted painter
and being able to make a living

as a fine arts trainer
doing what I did.

>> That was the day job
which was wonderful.

But he'd come home at night
and he'd paint all the time.

>> I never quit being a painter.

But that's when I realized you
just could not get paintings

in print or in front of anybody.

There was just no gallery
or any form of venue

that would deal with
these paintings.

There was no publications that
would deal with these things.

I was absolutely
out in the cold.

>> The Hot Rod world was
very generic boys' world

like the average joe world.

It had a crazy streak
in it of art.

And that was fostered
by Von Dutch.

>> At the time, I knew who
Von Dutch was and he was kind

of the guru or the
phantom figure.

He was such a rebellious
character

that most people were
even afraid of him.

>> Ed Roth styled
himself after Von Dutch.

I had studied fine arts.

Roth hired artists.

They explored all facets
of the non accepted arts

like sign painting, flame
painting and girly drawings.

>> I actually had met
Ed Roth back in the '50s

at the Hot Rod shows and
when I opened the museum,

the car museum which was
Movie World Cars of the Stars,

I hired him to be
the art director.

I put this little nucleus
of a collection together

that revolved around their world

which was mainly Hot
Rod's and custom cars.

[ Music ]

Ed Roth was actually the guy
that played out my museum

and one day I said "Ed,

who would you think is the
best artist living right now?"

He said "Oh without a doubt
it's Robert Williams".

And I said "God, I'd love
to meet the guy, you know".

The painting that really caused
me to meet him was this --

I always called the
Eyeball Painting.

I think it's called
something Retinal Delights.

[ Music ]

The Eyeball Painting just blew
my mind when I first saw it.

To me, it's still one

of the phenomenal
pieces of art out there.

[ Music ]

>> When it comes to that
movement what you call it?

Lowbrow Art, I guess
that's what they call it.

He's the guy.

He is the captain of
that whole movement.

Without him all these other
artists would not even be doing

that kind of art.

>> He's actually opened the door

to a new art form being
accepted into the mainstream.

And I think it's huge now.

>> What he's done with his
painting is open up avenues

in kind of weirdness and
possibilities of expression

to a lot of other people
to give them courage

to develop their own work
and take it from there.

>> He opened the portal for
like probably hundreds of people

to have a successful
career in the arts.

>> Without exaggeration
I'm basically an artist

because of Robert Williams.

He liked my paintings
and put one of them

on the cover of Juxtapoz.

And that's what launched
my whole fine art career.

He's done that for
a lot of artists.

>> I don't think people really
realized how much effect he had

on the culture of
the United States.

>> I got to know
him over the years

and he got to know Leonardo too.

Leonardo actually is
named after Robert.

Originally Leonardo's
stage name Lenny Williams.

You know we picked that out just

because it was Robert's
last name.

Robert would always say "Oh,
I'm his hippie godfather that's

who I am" and stuff like that.

>> You can't put a
little blue sometimes,

a little Prussian blue or
aquamarine blue in my black.

It makes it blacker than black.

It makes it a real
coal, dark black.

I had always realized,

to do real tight well done
interesting paintings,

it's going to take more
than a normal sacrifice.

If I could live three
or four lifetimes

and I had a real
tough pain threshold

and I could really
concentrate, I would do nothing

but super cartoons
with a one hair brush

and a magnifying glass 'cause
that's like beautiful jewelry.

It's like creating diamonds.

There is a psychopathic
characteristic

in doing detail work.

It's been long referred to
as being anal retentive.

But in psychiatry,
it comes to --

there's actually no such a thing
as being an anal retentive.

The term anal retentive has
an opposite side if you refer

to somebody like me
as an anal retentive,

there is this other side
called an anal repulsive.

In other words, someone that
paints is real loose instead

of tight and they continually
express shitting their pants

by doing a brisk,
breezy paint job.

You live in a time in history

that if diamonds
were just discovered,

no one would see
the beauty in them.

Diamonds had to be discovered
4 or 500 years ago for people

to see beauty in them, okay?

It was later that they
discovered diamonds were

like real hard and could
be used industrially.

Diamonds that are found today,
they would be utilized strictly

for their industrial
value, not for beauty, see?

Beauty is a thing that's come
from another period of time.

We appreciate diamonds
and flawless diamonds now

from something from the past.

That would not happen today.

People don't see a little
beautiful thing, okay?

That's out of our culture now.

It's just like people don't
go up to a painting and look

at the little beautiful
intricacies anymore.

That's kind of a passé thing.

It is a reflection of my
emotional involvement too

because if you see an old
illuminated manuscript,

and you see that the
armor seems to be right,

that means this pathetic little
scribe, this little artist

that sat there and did it
must have indulged himself

in some kind of appreciation
for the armor, you know,

so it's just like me painting
that grill in that Cadillac.

I'd have to have some personal
appreciation for that Cadillac.

I mean I want that goddamn
Cadillac to read Cadillac.

I had a hell of a time
with the grill on it.

I pulled it into shape.

I might have had one of
those compulsive mood fits

of not getting anything
just technically right.

That's why people copy
photographs, you know,

it gets rid of those fits.

I work on a thing and I'll
get the drawing just right.

And I'll come back the next
day and I look at the drawing

and it's like the hand's all
fucked up and the face is

at an angle and the geometry
in the eyes are way off.

And it's like "What
the fuck was wrong

with the guy that did this?

What was you thinking
yesterday, you know?

" There's a certain
amount of enjoyment.

We'll get enjoyment.

Well, I like sitting in
front of the television

and drinking root beer is
what I like to do, you know,

but that's not getting
the work done.

It's a compulsion.

It's exercising that compulsion.

[ Music ]

>> I did a number of very fast,

brief paintings I called
Zombie Mystery paintings

that deals primarily with
gratuitous sex and violence

because it had energy.

It visually antagonized you.

Women didn't take to that.

[ Music ]

I found that I had great success
showing at underground galleries

like La Luz de Jesus
and Zero One

and Psychedelic Solution
and what not.

I was greatly rewarded with
a following almost instantly

and I generated quite an
audience and a group of buyers.

[ Music ]

>> I paint women that
are easy read beauties.

I can't stand big tits
but I put big tits

on them 'cause that's easy read.

It would take persons with
a much more refined taste

in investigative powers

to understand the
little small breast, see?

But if I got the big
fucking butter bags,

I mean the stories
written right there.

On the other hand, the
ass is like, you know,

a little more fundamental.

It's like very, very primitive
if you go to the back of her

and you have to have like a
way of what is the back of her

and the back of her
is the big part.

You know, the big smiley
part that looks friendly.

[ Music ]

The very first art ever
created was naked women.

You know, you look at the little
Venus's and shit, you know,

there are nothing
but ass and tits.

Some of them were lucky
if they have heads.

If you look at the Venus
of Willendorf and you turn

that thing right,
it's got an asshole.

It has no head but it's
got an asshole, you know,

it's like we're saying
something here.

There's some detail talk
in this thing, you know,

there is no face on the
Venus of Willendorf.

And the Venus of Willendorf is

like a Playboy magazine,
you know.

That's a Playboy
magazine 15,000 years ago.

[ Music ]

You look at it on an astral
level, the beautiful expanse

of Orion Nebula and all these
things, you can't even start

to comprehend how
immense, and how dynamic

and how beautiful those are.

And you know, you can be looking
at a telescope with a one eye,

man, and a girl goes
by with a nice ass

and the man the Orion
Nebula is nowhere you, know,

just curls up like a
pork skin, you know.

But then you say well, an
ass that's too perfect is

like not good either, it's
to style, just like the guy

that likes the big
titties, you know.

Like the big titties are
like for an idiot, you know.

It's like the perfect ass is
like kind of like an idiot,

like a little bit of cellulite
you know that really looks good.

[ Music ]

The more trauma that I got,

the more my sexual material
was catching criticism

and the feminists started
really getting on me.

>> It exploits women, I'm sorry,

the titles don't make
it any more amusing."

>> I endured about a decade
there of being a punching bag

for a lot of people who wanted
to point out what not to do.

>> I'm sure down the line when
you have guys doing paintings

of real heavy duty
graphic sexual shit

and putting it in galleries.

He's going to have to
be considered a sexist.

>> I even hate the word sexist.

Humanity is sexist.

There's women and there's men
and they're different sexes.

We have to get along
with each other.

>> I don't consider
Williams a misogynist at all.

He loves women.

He makes them strong,
fearsome, and beautiful.

>> He is not a sexist
person at all, not at all,

not in the finest
sense of the word.

>> Women on enchiladas and
who are obviously supposedly

to be portrayed as Latino,
it's really obnoxious.

>> The girls on food is a
combination of your libido

and your necessity
to stay alive.

I don't want to go
into that too much

because then it would expose
me as like really a pervert.

>> I guess that's sexist, right?

Anybody who's too horny and you
know, puts it in their work.

>> I think it's really
offensive.

>> The most interesting and
beautiful thing that exists

in human culture is a woman and
that's what I'm attracted too,

so you know, I'm guilty.

>> I was talking to that
director Herzog, you know him?

Warner Herzog?

He says he hates Cinema
Reverto [assumed spelling].

Huh? It's okay.

[ Music ]

>> As a young man in my mid
teens, I had the opportunity

to do a small stint in
a traveling carnival.

I realized how everything
was just designed as a facade

to get people's money and
rather than being resentful,

I started developing an
appreciation for this

and saw a certain
aesthetic in the fact

that they would test the limits
of what people could tolerate.

If you see it on the outside,
you see this gypsy romance,

you know, but in reality, it's
like very desperate people,

a lot of them on the drugs, a
lot of them just went goof ball

that would do anything
for money.

[ Music ]

There's a certain comic
arrogance in my pain.

And a lot of people don't
like me because of that.

But I think I picked that up in
the -- from the carnival art.

It's like the carnival
art challenges you

like just how stupid
are you, you know?

[ Music ]

>> Welcome back to
the Week In Rock.

Hi, I'm John Norris
with the news.

And the group's 1987 debut
album is still stirring

up controversy.

>> People look at it as sexist
or anything, I mean, I guess --

I can see what they're saying.

>> -- sensationalistic work
has attracted many fans --

Guns of Roses, but it's his
paining on the inner sleeve

of their Appetite
for Destruction

that caused the recent
controversy in California.

A feminist group branded
it a glorification of rape.

>> Glorification of rape.

[ Music ]

>> It wasn't good enough, right,

when we took it off the front
cover and put it on the inside.

You know, that's, that blows.

They can't do anything about it.

[ Music ]

>> When these people originally
approached me, they were unheard

of and I would consider them to
be just another punk rock band

that comes to my door
wanting art work.

>> It was a post card we found
in a -- in a store in Melrose,

I think Axl turned me on to it.

>> I love the picture but I kind
of submitted it as a joke that's

so outrageous and I was like,
you mean, you want to use this?

Oh, this is great so
then we just went for it.

>> They even used the
name, the painting was

"Appetite for Destruction".

>> I love the art work and the
talent that was involved in it

and I think that that since it
was such an outrageous picture

that like the skill and the
talent involved in making it,

it gets -- gets overlooked.

>> I gave him my best wishes but
I warned him that this is going

to get them in a lot of
trouble and it got them

in exactly the amount of
trouble I thought it was going

to get them into.

>> A lot of people don't have
anything else to do, you know,

so they get into
censorship or whatever.

>> This was when Tipper
Gore was still around.

And -- not that she's not
anymore, but during her heyday.

>> The family organizations
started raising hell

in school organizations and
in churches and whatnot.

>> That was when at least for
me personally, I first grew

up to the whole media affair.

When I first had to sort of
sit there and go "really?"

You know, and my bottle of Jack
Daniels and the whole thing

and I was going, "You
think what about us?

Yeah, we're such a nice
bunch of guys you know.

"

>> I don't really know what to
think about censorship but it's

like we seemed to
be like, you know,

knocking down the doors
every time they censor us,

we get past it so we
just don't give up.

>> What we did was we
said "You know what?

Fine, fuck it", and we took
the cross thing that we had

on the inside sleeve
put that on the cover

and put the real
painting on the inside.

>> This thing sold 14
million records and a third

of those records, this was the
cover and the other two-thirds,

this was on a sleeve inside.

And I let them have
it for nothing, see.

Almost nothing, and that was one
of my lesser business endeavors

but it did get me quite
a bit of publicity.

>> A lot more people
I think were turned

on to Robert's artwork
than were before

and I'm really glad
to be a part of that.

>> If you don't like
us, don't listen to us.

If you don't like him, don't
look at his art, simple.

>> Such a waste of time.

People have spent so much
time like dwelling on that.

>> Appetite for Destruction --

is that peoples'
moms were buying it.

Okay. So it's no
longer that much

of a controversial
issue anymore.

It's like it's accepted.

And so we just turned around
and put it back on the cover,

and just didn't say anything

and we never heard word
one about it since.

[ Music ]

>> When I came up with
Juxtapoz Magazine,

I wanted that "Here is an
art magazine that's flipped".

I think I did to
a certain extent.

If you would look at Juxtapoz
and you compare it to Artnews

or Artforum, you'll realize
there's a whole different

psychosis there.

The important thing to an
artist is to get publicity

and the best publicity is
write-ups in magazines.

You have to remember, it's that
write-up on Jackson Pollock

in LIFE Magazine that made him.

That one big write-up in LIFE
Magazine made Jackson Pollock

so you can see the importance of
getting publicity in write-ups.

>> At the time, you got to
remember what existed, you know,

there was Artforum, Art in
America, Flash Art, ARTnews,

Art issues, that's kind
of weird because you go

to the magazine rack
and you look

through all the different --

the same month, they'd
review all the same shows.

It was all like one
big magazine disguised

as 20 different magazines.

>> When we first
started doing Juxtapoz,

I went to all the underground
artists that I knew.

And I went to Crumb and S.
Clay Wilson and Victor Moscoso

and Spain Rodriguez and
I'd say, "Well I'm coming

out with an art magazine
that deals

with underground painting
and underground art".

And I got agreements
from all these artists

that they would help.

>> He really was trying to bring
other artists along with him

because he didn't really
want to be the only one.

He wanted it to be
an art movement.

>> Almost every person has a
hunger for some kind of art

like when someone's
making crafts

or they're drawing pictures
or there's a certain

like human nature things.

So everyone has his art urge

and it's just how does it
gets stifled in every person.

It starts in kindergarten

with the teacher
saying, "That's awful".

And then you really
get stifled in college

because all those
people are trained

to tell you whatever
you're doing is wrong.

So then when they
find a magazine

that champions all
the wrong art,

they're going to
subscribe to that.

They're going to buy, they're
going to get addicted to that.

>> I started a magazine
called Coagula,

meaning it was a big middle
finger to the art world.

I came straight at them

and critiqued the entire
culture of the art world.

I trashed the big names.

When Juxtapoz came out; it was
a totally different animal.

It was actually saying the
art itself, the end product,

not the people, not the
culture, are the problem.

We want to take over
the art world.

>> If you look at, say
Artforum, like the pictures,

it would be small and
the writing would be big

and it'd be all about
the writing and then

if you would read the articles,
they'd be heavily footnoted

and they would quote all these
philosophers, so it was really

about the art historian proving
to you how smart that they were.

If you have a PhD
in art criticism,

you can't understand Artforum
but, you know, between that

and someone that
likes art, you know,

there should be a step to that.

>> The secret to Juxtapoz was
the art needed very little

rationalizations to
be accepted as art.

The art world had
thrived for 40 years

on the more rationalizations
that the art needed,

the higher up the food chain
in the art world it went.

Juxtapoz completely
inverted that.

And now, it's been about
15 years and it's almost

like we can now see
how deep the crater was

of what it destroyed
in the art world.

>> Since the minute it hit
the stands, it took off,

it did really good until it
finally did become the number

one selling, for sure, above and
beyond any other art magazine

of all the other art magazines.

[ Music ]

>> Rather than view just a
bland portrait of Debbie Harry,

I was interested in
some kind of psychosis

that gives the picture
some substance.

What I've got here
exhibits a lot of neurosis.

So I don't want you to think
that Ms. Harry is like a,

you know, an involved lunatic
or something like that.

This is like just particular
neurosis that I had to extract

from her after a
long conversation.

Up here, we have a
cartoon characterization

of Debbie Harry.

And she has a phobia of being
bound up and trapped under --

in a triangular shape.

This has been an emotional
situation that bothered her

in dreams in one
thing or another.

>> The sexual thing was
the Ted Bundy experience.

>> She told me in the early
'70s, she was coming home

from night clubbing at
3 or 4 in the morning

by herself walking the
streets of New York,

and a little white car pulled up
to her and offered her a ride.

And she flagged this
character on.

>> This guy kept coming
back and offering me a ride.

And I said, "No."

When he came back the third
time, and I said, "Okay."

And I got in the
car and the interior

of the car had been
totally stripped,

it was just like
a frame of a car.

And I was sitting in this frame
of a car but the windows rolled

up with a guy that
smelled really bad

and I couldn't get out.

>> She looked to the side of
the window there and noticed

that it hadn't been
rolled up all the way

and she reached through
the window.

>> Squeezed my arm out that
little crack in the window

and I opened the door
from the outside.

>> Popped the door open as the
car is going around a corner,

tumbled out on the street.

>> And was sort of hanging
from the door like this.

And he spun around and
I flew out into the road

in the middle of Houston Street.

>> And later she learns that
she was a virtual prisoner

to Theodore Bundy,
the serial murderer.

>> I don't have these
dreams anymore.

>> Since he started
the paintings.

>> Yeah. And now, I
have also stopped aging.

Yeah.

>> I don't pull out
no stops or anything

but on this particular painting,

I had Ms. Harry's
dignity to think about.

>> I did have her
keister showning here.

>> I really wouldn't have
minded being portrayed sitting

on a taco with no clothes on.

But Robert is a gentleman.

[ Music ]

>> You bought that
painting, why?

>> 'Cause it was
cheap, dirt cheap.

>> I think I just
bought this painting.

I still owe them money.

The reason I bought
this painting is

because it was the
last one and didn't get

to pick any of the others.

>> What part of this
painting do you like the best?

>> The guy's dick, you can
barely see his little green

penis hanging down.

>> I like the fact that you
painted me in the shell here,

you notice the whiskers.

I don't know if you
can see in detail.

>> You can see there's
a little bit

of fluvium here extruding
from the corona.

>> This is Oscar
Wilde by the way,

and you can see the
fairies getting shot here

which is a nice image of the
fairy getting the bullet hole.

Coochie Cootie is dead
on the floor right here

and he's kind of cute.

>> The individual that's
purchased a painting is I'm

afraid bought the painting
for the wrong reason.

He's seeing things
in the paintings

that -- it wasn't emphasized.

>> Some people, you know,
they'll go like this

on a painting and they'll sell
it for a half million dollars.

But Robert is a craftsman,
you see.

>> There is articles in
here that suggest vulgarity

but these aren't the things
that we concentrate on.

And I think Mr. Haynes
has jumped

to conclusions in this purchase.

>> I asked you, I said,
"What time do you get

up in the morning to paint?"

And you said.

>> About 4:15, 4:30.

>> He gets up at 4:30 in the
morning to start painting.

Now this is an inspiration
to me.

Ever since he told me that,
now I get up at about nine

in the morning and
I start writing.

[ Music ]

>> I'm doing this article
for Juxtapoz Magazine.

And I really have
to summarize Robert.

All of us, we want to think
"Yeah, I'm the greatest".

You want somebody to say "Yeah,

you're just as good
Michelangelo".

Well that's what
I intend to say.

I want to look at the
Sistine Chapel in some

of the Robert Williams'
paintings as having more

in common than not
having things in common.

>> I was working on a
set of four sculptures.

I'm doing a set of four
sculptures, Eloquence Redefined

because it sure as hell
have to redefine eloquence

to tolerate these, okay?

There's four of them and
they just selected two.

The first one here is
an ecology statement.

We have this brute creature
here with a blowtorch heating

up the world referencing
global warming.

He's blind so he
can feign innocence.

He's got this brute strength
like mankind, all his energy

but it's going in
the wrong direction.

[ Music ]

And in the second one here
is Corker [assumed spelling].

The name of this one is A
Diamond in a Goat's Ass.

And what this refers to is
something that's overdone,

a lyrical, poetic
euphemism for pretension.

[ Music ]

I am the sculptor but
I work with a crew

that does the sanding

and faceting things
together and whatnot.

[ Music ]

>> Do you see yourself as
a blue-collared worker?

>> Yes. A journeyman,
there's an apprentice,

a journeyman and a master.

I'm a journeyman.

>> You're still a journeyman?

>> I can do the work.

That's a journeyman.

>> How long 'till
you're a master?

>> Well that's supposition
for someone else to say.

[ Music ]

This should be ready
for Halloween

at Tony Shafrazi's
Halloween night opening.

Right in the middle of
the Art World New York,

these things are coming about.

A Diamond in a Goat's
Ass, you know.

Yeah.

[ Music ]

>> What are they going to say
about you 50 years from now

when they look back
maybe they'll call it

"The Juxtapoz Moment".

Maybe they'll call it "The
School of Robert Williams".

What are they going to say?

>> That you honor me by saying
"What are they going to say?"

I appreciate it.

They're probably not going
to say a fucking thing.

There's younger artists
that have leapfrogged me

but they're going to be
saying about these guys

and then more intelligent
people are going

to investigate the movement.

They function in
the real life "Hey,

it looks like there's a
real intelligent fucking guy

who did this really great work".

That's what I'm hoping for.

[ Music ]

When you start getting into
real detailed art work,

it starts getting obsessional.

Work this area out and this
area has to be worked out.

The resolution on the thing
starts developing before you.

And the thing about being
an artist is you're always

like in a chess game ten steps
ahead of what you're doing.

You want to try a little while?

The onlooker doesn't realize
this, you know, they're looking

at what you've done there.

What you're doing is
your way ahead of it.

You're drawn out in this
obsession of this visual image.

You're not in the picture.

You're around the picture.

The picture is actually you.

I don't want to feign
the insane genius artists

like Van Gogh or anything.

But there's like
an emotional tie

into this stuff that's
pretty radical to define,

you know, it's a need.

It's like a real need.

You have to come to grips with
yourself and you have to come

to grips with what other people
think and you have to come

into grips with what you can
actually fucking do, you see?

What you want to do and what
you actually can do, you know,

are sometimes a broad distance.

Should I wake up every
morning so fucking jealous?

That's the only way I get up.

It's not caffeine.

It's jealousy that gets me
up every fucking morning.

>> Which part of the studio
do you enjoy the most?

>> The finish.

>> The last?

>> The day I sign it.

The day the son of a
bitch is out of my hair.

[ Music ]

I've always done the paintings.

You know I always thought
well since I'm nobody,

doing the paintings and I'll
probably never be nobody,

I'm left with the total freedom

and do something
really bitching.

[ Music ]

>> Tonight is the opening of
the Whitney Biennial in New York

and Robert has finally
been included.

He's now in the canon
of contemporary art.

The Whitney Biennial
is the ultimate arbiter

of which artist is
in and the artists

who don't get in are out.

And yet he's going
to be an outsider

and not attend the
Whitney Biennial opening

because his opening is here
in Cal State Northridge.

[ Music ]

>> The great artists reflect
their time in hindsight.

The trendy artists, yeah,
they get the headlines.

The museums buy their art.

30 years later that
stuff is in the attic

if it hasn't been deaccessioned.

When they close the book

on the 20th century the great
painters are going to have

to compete with the lines of
Picasso, the color of Matisse

and the plots of
Robert Williams.

[ Music ]

>> You know I have
a daughter who's 14,

somehow like all these kids,
they like the Jonas Brothers

in their school and these
girls are going crazy for it.

And so somehow she thought
that music kind of sucks.

And so she like figured out, I'm
not sure how, but if she's going

to listen to music she likes
it's going to be the Beatles.

Then I'm like sort of
the Beatles like now

as an adult, you know.

I go, "Man, the Beatles are
a lot like Robert Williams".

They were young.

They had a new message.

It was edgy and it
was really good.

Our whole music world
was completely changed

by the Beatles more
than anyone else.

And that sort of gets discounted
I think in history just

as Robert Williams
gets discounted.

Everyone takes for
granted the --

all these other artists
are so great.

[ Music ]

>> But just the Beatles
of the logo.

[ Music ]

>> He was the breakthrough guy.

All the art before
Williams was one thing.

But all the work after
Williams starting right

with him, that was all better.

[ Music ]

>> Robert, are you happy?

>> I am happy.

I am happy.

[ Music ]

>> Hot Rod Bob, Geronemus Bob
as they call silently Betty Bob,

Is that the Bob, Robert William.

>> Oh he worked at a carnival.

He's a geek I think
in the carnival.

Got rocks like this --

ladies and gentlemen
-- got squawky voice.

Got the little hands
going down like that kind

of chicken breasted guy with a
hurt neck, that Robert Williams?

I don't know him.

[ Music ]

>> You know people are running
me down from my red socks.

Red socks are very hard to find.

Usually I have to find
women's high heel socks.

Nothing accents blue suede
shoes like red socks.

[ Music ]

>> My name is Spain
Rodriguez I'm an old friend

of Robert Williams.

Therefore it's very -- what
I have to report about,

Mr. Williams is very sad --

Robert Williams is a
practitioner Salvador Dali's

secret masturbatory techniques
which are so debasing,

so degrading when these
are exposed to the world,

all those Hollywood friends

that he has will just be
utterly repelled and shocked

and they will see what a
squalid reprobate he really is.

[ Music ]

>> People collect anything.

I don't know if this
relates but some guy in LA

that collects vacuum
cleaners and --

>> Yeah, there was
a lot of people

that collect vacuum cleaners.

[ Music ]

>> When you go to a small
town down South or a city

down South you're going
to probably go to church

to meet people that
are going to church.

That's where you -- my dad
told me one time that's

where you get the pussy is
the church, so, you know,

that's where the women are.

[ Music ]

>> What are exactly -- I mean?

--

>> I think he said that it
represents the rape of mankind

by technology and the media.

>> Oh, sure.

>> Okay.

>> That's deep

[ Music ]

>> I can't lose this painting.

I've lost a lot over the years.

I just have a told
people, you know.

>> What do you do with
the ones you lose?

>> Just shut my mouth
and people don't know it.

[ Music ]

>> I'd don't want to
say it on the camera.

Sit here and tell you
my political entry

from staying here.

You're out of your mind!

You shouldn't have told
you in the first place.

[ Music ]

>> Suzanne is a good
gal, she's the best,

there's nothing like her.

She's extremely intelligent,
talented,

tolerant, progressive woman.

I'm her minion.

[ Music ]

Gee, it's incredible how deeply
involved you are in my world.

>> You don't understand
that like all these people

that like your work wanted

to know all these
weird things that --

>> How many people do
you think are out there?

>> We don't know.

>> That's right, you don't.

[ Music ]

>> I love Robert.

He's really good.

[ Music ]

>> End of story.

[ Music ]