All language subtitles for Officer.Involved.2017

- I used to think the easiest thing

to do was to make a deadly force decision.

He tries to kill me, so I
kill him, or I shoot him.

It's not that simple.

There were two times in my career

I almost shot a fellow officer.

I'm just lucky that things
went down the way they did

or I'd have to be living with that.

- Twice I pulled guns
on people and had them

tell me to just basically go to hell.

So what do you do?

You're standing there
holding a gun and this guy's

coming at you, what do you do?

And not all decisions are easy.

You're looking at making a
judgement that other people

have hours, if not days
or weeks, to decide on.

And you have to do it when
you're literally scared

out of your wits.

You're caught completely off guard.

(soft rock music)

- [Patrick] My name is Patrick.

I'm a husband, a son,

a former academic,

and a pretty deep thinker.

And for the last two years,

I've been on a mission to
understand what happens

in the wake of an
officer-involved shooting.

While traditional narratives
have tended to focus on the

devastation and the confusion
wrought by the bullets fired,

little attention has been
placed on the experience

of the police officer
who pulled the trigger

and the chain reaction
of events that follows.

This film began in 2013
with the simple question,

and brought both my wife
and I across the country,

digging a tunnel to the
heart of the question:

What happens to an
officer after a shooting?

- Keep your hands in the
air and come toward me!

- [Patrick] When this project began,

we didn't know where we'd
go or how far we'd travel,

but as we got further down the road

and met with dozens and
dozens of people, we realized

that the men and women who are
involved have a lot to say.

As a police officer myself,
I stood ready to listen.

The following is a
look, if only a glimpse,

into what it's like to
be an officer involved.

(gunshot bang)

Did you ever think that you
would be involved in a shooting?

- Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

You heard the stories of your
instructors and older officers

who said, "I've been a
police officer for this long,

"and I've never shot anybody."

- I never thought I'd actually be in one,

but I almost had the
idea that I wanted to.

And I know most people
would never understand that.

Most police officers will,
but other people won't.

You get in this job to
really test yourself,

physically, mentally, emotionally.

- You think about it.

I honestly didn't think it would happen,

especially this soon in my career.

I was employed full time
approximately, say, eight months.

And this incident occurred.

- But wholeheartedly, did I actually think

that that was ever gonna happen to me?

No.

I never thought I'd be
put in that situation.

I was aware it could happen.

- Most officers don't walk
out looking for a gunfight.

In fact, I don't know
any officer that does.

Or use of force situation.

They walk up in a situation

and for the most part
are caught by surprise.

Or they try to control something,

and it goes sideways on them.

- People don't realize
that about being a cop.

99% of the time it's just mundane stuff.

Doing a job, helping people.

Doing traffic, things like that.

But when all hell breaks loose,

there's nothing in the world like it.

And it always is remarkable
to me that our men and women

in law enforcement can stand up to that.

- The other thing they don't
realize is that we're human

beings, that we have fear,

we bleed just like anybody else.

We're not supermen.

Bullets don't bounce off of us.

- [Patrick] Who would want
to be a police officer?

- People who wanna help
take care of the innocents.

People need protection.

People are not warriors.

They go to work every
day, I mean theoretically.

They have families.

But they don't understand
they may fall prey

to the worst people there are.

They used to beat the
living daylights out of me.

I was a child of the 60s.

I had hair down to my waist,
and I was a pot smoker

and somewhat left of center.

And my perception of police
officers was not protective.

It was fearful because I saw
them as fascists at the time.

But once I started to see
them as humans and see their

vulnerability, I knew that
this was what I belonged doing.

I saw their humanity.

- [Patrick] Did you always
want to be a police officer?

- No.

First I wanted to be a chef.

Then I decided, there's
always been a little part

of me that wanted to be a policeman.

And the chef thing, I
figured if I was a chef,

I like to eat too much,
so I'd weigh 400 pounds.

- Yes.

Yep.

My interactions with law
enforcement as a kid,

and on up into the teenage years was,

it was always positive.

That was kind of my guiding light,

as far as what I thought I wanted to do.

And then it just kind of,
I never lost focus of that.

- Not at all. (chuckles)

My dad was a cop, and I went to college

and was gonna go to graduate
school and just didn't really

wanna know what I wanted to do.

I would never pick this profession.

It kinda picked me.

- It was a career change.

Aside from the corny answer
of, "I wanted to help people,"

which is always part of it,
there was a practical aspect.

I needed to get a real job.

- Policing is the only occupation
I can think of where we

take the employee and we send
them out to do their job.

They get out there.

They do what they are
expected to do, what in fact,

they've been ordered to do

which, in fact, they would
even be derelict in their duty

to not do it, which is to protect
themselves and the public.

They use the equipment that we gave them,

they use the training that
we've provided to them.

They do it under the threat
of life and death stress.

They do it very well, and then
when the whole thing is all

over with, they are now going
to be a de facto suspect

in a felony crime.

(camera clicks)

Where they will be investigated
criminally to find out

if they're gonna be
indicted on a felony crime.

They will also, typically,
undergo an automatic Internal

Affairs investigation to find
out if they're going to be

disciplined and or terminated,
all for doing their job,

and in fact, risking their life doing it.

When you think about it,

that's a very bizarre position
to put an employee in.

- [Patrick] After the shooting,
what happened next with you?

- See, I'm not a smoker.

I grabbed a cigarette,
and I started smoking.

I don't know why I did that.

It's probably the only
cigarette I've ever smoked.

- I was kind of angry with him

for forcing me to do
something like that, you know.

I didn't wanna do it.

- I remember, I walked
down away from the house,

and I let out a scream.

And I believe that's the time

when I said "63," into the radio.

63, radio, 63!

- I copy 63.
- Shots fired, 63.

- It's kinda like you see your
life flash before your eyes,

and you wonder.

I don't know, I didn't think
about it now, but now I think

about what would have
happened if I'd died that day.

- Well, I look back around
the wall and I see him outside

the wall shooting down the wall at me.

And I think, "Son of a gun, he didn't go.

"His chance to escape was
there, and he didn't take it."

He no longer was forcing
me in a confrontation

that he wants to get away,
and I'm supposed to catch him,

now he's trying to kill me.

- But all I remember is
walking up to him afterwards,

and thinking, "I'm glad I got you.

"I mean it was either me or
you, and I'm glad it's you."

You can tell, it's 25 years later, man.

I'm still emotional about
it, it still bothers me.

- The aftermath of the shooting
is an extremely demanding

and stressful time.

In my opinion, once the
gun smoke has cleared,

the officer's full-time
job, and this'll vary,

from person to person, and
situation to situation,

their full-time job needs to
be coping with the aftermath

and all the many challenges
that they're gonna be facing.

- [Patrick] What was it
like, to tell your family?

- I called my parents.

My dad was alive at the time,
and my mom answered the phone.

I said, "Hey lemme talk to Daddy."

She says, "Is everything okay?"

I say, "Everything's fine."

So I talk to my dad,

I said, "Hey."

He said, "What's wrong?"

I said, "Well, I just
had to shoot somebody."

He said, "What in the hell?"

I said, "Well, he shot at me first.

"He missed, and I shot
back, and I didn't miss."

And he said, "Fuck the son of a bitch!"

You know that's my dad,
he's a Vietnam vet.

He was like, "Okay, once
they're shooting at you

"they're just over with."

- And I decided to call Cathy,
who's a trained negotiator

for some advice, and let
her know what was going on.

I didn't know at the time,
but he came back to the scene,

did doughnuts behind me.

So the last words that Cathy
heard on the phone was,

"Oh, shit, I gotta go."

And the next time that we talked,

it was after the shooting was over.

We've got shots fired.

Everybody's okay.

But we got a guy who's uh,

he escaped from his house,

and he's driving around in his BMW.

He's 10-32, he's trying
to do suicide by cops.

Oh, shoot, hold on!

(tires screech)

- And he remembers saying,
"Oh, shit, I gotta go."

But I can hear this tire spinning
behind him and I was mad.

I was mad that he called me,
I was upset, I was worried.

All of the normal emotions and then,

that's kind of the dual role of,

"Well, he knows that's not
safe, why did he do that?"

And then, "That's my husband,
now I'm worried about him."

So that was kind of conflicting.

And I text him, a very angry
text (chuckle) about calling

me in the middle of it and
then, that was the cop in me,

then the wife in me
took over, and I'm like,

"What if that's the last
text I ever get to send him?"

- I could see it in my dad's eyes, he knew

and my mom was a little confused
as to what was going on,

and she says, "Are you
okay, what happened?"

I said, "I'm fine."

And I was relatively loopy
from the pills they give

you to kind of bring you down.

I said, "I'm just gonna tell
you now 'cause you're gonna

see it on the news in
a couple hours anyway."

I said, "I just shot and killed somebody."

The look in my mom's eyes
I'll never forget it.

It's like she was so sad.

- Even though my wife had been
the wife of a cop for seven

or eight years at that point,
coming home and knowing that

her husband had just
shot and killed somebody,

she didn't know how to react.

She didn't know whether to give me a hug,

to hold me, to talk about it.

And so she didn't do anything.

And it was like, "Wow,
what's happened now?

"Why is she treating me differently?"

And I'm telling you, all I
wanted to do when I walked

in the door was get a hug.

I just wanted to have someone
say, "Everything's okay."

And so that caused a lot of
problems between her and I.

- Being raised in a society
that says violence is not a good

thing and we have all these laws that say,

"Don't engage in violence."

But if you're a cop under
these circumstances,

you get to kill somebody.

Sometimes folks such as
myself, we think this through,

and it is a conundrum.

And then you do what you
have to do to save your life

or another officer's life,
and now it becomes a personal

conundrum and you have to sort it through.

- Emotionally they're probably
just trying to come to terms

with what just happened to 'em
and they're probably thinking

about what are the consequences of this?

- How do you come home and
tell people that have no clue

what happens, "I just had
to shoot and kill someone.

"I feared I would never see you again"?

How do you communicate that?

You don't wanna bring
that stuff to your family

but it's there, it's an infection.

- And then other people don't understand.

And they're saying all these
things, especially if it's

a media frenzy, a high-profile
case, then it's gotta

be really tough and they
probably even get picked on.

I think if I was involved
in a high-profile case,

my kids wouldn't be going to school.

- [Patrick] Did you tell your
children about your shooting?

- I didn't tell them right away.

When they started seeing it
on the TV, things like that,

my daughter, she started asking me things.

I just told her that
something happened at work.

But I didn't tell her anything really.

How do you tell a kid
that daddy shot somebody?

- [Patrick] Did you speak
with your nine-year-old

about the situation at all?

- No.

And, you know, to this day, 35,

I still haven't talked to 'em about it.

Neither one of my sons
has really been interested

about what happened that day.

- I wanted to make sure that my daughters

and my loved ones heard it from me.

So I gathered 'em around
and told them a version

that they could accept or
that they could understand.

- I had to take a car and I
had to pick her up from the

house and take her to a school
function and I was working,

so I just picked her
up while I was at work,

and I took her to the school function.

And then she looked up at the
shotgun that was mounted above

the ceiling and she asked me,
"Do you ever shoot, that?"

"Yeah, baby. I do."

"Have you ever shot anybody with that?"

"No, baby, I haven't."

"So you didn't shoot that man with that?"

"No, baby, I didn't."

"My friend told me you shot somebody."

"Yeah, baby, I did."

"Well, why'd you do that?"

"'Cause I wanted to come home to you."

- The officer is probably
going to be exhausted.

They may have difficulties
sleeping after the event.

Their body is gonna be flooded
with extremely powerful

stress hormones and
chemicals that helps them,

that's completely normal, helps
them get through this life

and death situation that it
takes some time for those

chemicals to clear out of the system.

- [Patrick] When did you
finally get to sleep?

- I laid down probably
around three or four o'clock,

but I didn't sleep.

I honestly for two, at least
two days, I didn't sleep

because my mind, I mean
you just would not believe

how many times your mind
replays it and replays it and

replays it, and every time
it does, it's just literally,

it jolts you every time,

especially right after it was fresh.

- They recommend, this is
what you wanna try to do.

You wanna try to get some good rest.

You wanna try to, make
sure you eat healthy meals,

stay away from caffeine,
and told me all the things

that you wanna try to do,
and they were very helpful.

But sleep didn't come for,
I don't know how long.

I was just awake.

- This happened kind of
early on in the shift so

I was generally up already,
but man, I didn't sleep for

a long time.

Real long time.

You just don't.

It's like your body's tired
but your head's just nonstop.

Just going 100 miles an hour.

There's so many unknowns at that point.

At least there was for me.

- I saw the, I saw the
doctor for three weeks,

once a week for three weeks.

Then, I saw a different
doctor, and it was probably

about five weeks after the shooting

I finally got probably
a great night sleep.

- [Patrick] What's that five weeks like?

- Well, that five weeks,
I was on the front page

of the paper the entire time.

They kept it rolling.

They kept talking about it.

The media wouldn't let it die.

- Police officers in our society are truly

one of the absolute
foundation, the bed rock

of our democracy in the
life that we treasure.

Another super important
foundation is the media.

The media has one of the most
important jobs in our society,

which is to find out what's
going on, and to hold all forms

of government, all power
brokers, whoever they may be,

in and around with government, accountable

for what they're doing.

And if they're doing things
that are harming people,

it's the media's job to
ferret that out, and to report

it honestly and fairly
as much as they can.

- [Patrick] What was the
media like in your case?

- The media was good to me.

And I think a lot of it had
to do with the fact that

my department was so
forthcoming with information.

I mean, we had our...

The chief held his first press conference

eight hours after my shooting,
which is pretty quick.

You usually don't get a
press conference that fast,

where they're actually
putting out good information.

So they didn't have a
chance to get it wrong.

- The suspect was armed
with a assault rifle,

7.62 assault rifle.

After being hit, returned
fire, knocked the threat down,

and outstanding job on his part.

We don't have body armor
that can stop that.

I mean, our vests pretty
much stop pistol rounds,

and this is a round that if
he'd have hit the officer

in the chest, even though
we have a mandatory policy

for body armor, it wouldn't
have stopped that round.

That's a heavy duty round.

- Law enforcement can
complain about the media,

but they really need to do
better job of managing the media.

I don't mean that in a toxic
way, I mean, build cooperative

working relationships with
the media, and recognize that

they do have an important job to do.

And to do everything they
can to assist the reporters

to do it in a fair,
objective, and honest way,

so that the public is getting
the facts, and not just

made up sensationalism or inaccuracies.

And when the media does it
wrong, they do a lot of damage

to the police officers.

They do a lot of damage to
the agency, and equally as

importantly, they do a lot
of damage to the community.

- I remember in his situation
with the female at the grocery

store just, I mean, it was
like they would put anybody

on the news that was,
supportive of her family,

attorney stuff, and just
making up off the wall stuff.

- First thing, the news
started out with was that

a female was holding a puppy.

Obviously, I knew that wasn't
the case, and so did every

other officer that was at
the scene and everything.

But that was really hard

because you do have people out
there that actually believed

that on, that aren't police
officers or whatever,

that she was holding a
puppy, and no gun at all.

You know, it's just a puppy.

And obviously, that was not the case.

But they finally came
through and said that

they did recover a firearm at the scene.

So, that helped a little bit, but it went

a long time with the puppy
story, and that was hard

to not be able to, I wanted
to be able to be like,

"No, it wasn't."

That made it really hard,

not being able to tell
exactly what happened.

- I think information is helpful.

It's helpful in helping
officers explain situations.

It's helpful in having
those who are objective,

and wanna understand officers'
behavior, how to work with,

why the officer did what they did.

It's very helpful information.

It's helpful information to
the vast majority of people

who are unbiased or don't
have a dog in the fight that

really wanna try to understand
what the dynamics are.

But if you become immediately
determined that whatever

is said by the media is the
actual evidence about what

happened, I'm not certain
that facts to the opposite

will change your mind.

- They tell you not to watch the news,

tell you don't get on Facebook.

What's the main thing
you do is you get on.

I wanna know what anybody says.

What do people think happened?

You know, what's going on?

And then that's when it starts.

I mean, that's when you see the media

don't know what they're talking about.

They're telling me I shot
some guy, there's no gun,

this and that, and it starts.

"Hey, a white officer shoots a black guy."

That's how it started off.

Okay, I'm not even white.

First off, they didn't
ask me if I'm white.

Yeah, then I keep watching
news, keep watching news

just five, six, seven in the morning,

I still ain't been to
sleep, I can't sleep.

You see it on the news.

"Hey, you know, law
enforcement discovered a gun

"hours later."

- [News Reporter] Police
now say they've even found

a stolen gun in the area.

Here's how they say it started.

Fayetteville police
officer, Christopher...

- That's not what happened.

The gun was beside him the whole time.

But they twist it to make
it sound more dramatic

than what it really was.

- When I did see things they
were either an exaggeration,

or not accurate, or completely false,

and there was nothing I could do about it.

(sighs) - Well, they made a
big deal out of the issue of

the information was slow to come out.

Well, you know, to properly
investigate stuff like this

it has to be slow to get out,
and then the news media tried

to make a big deal out of it.

It seemed like, "Why you locking down the,

"why you trying to keep this from the news

"when this is freedom of information?

"Why are you trying to stop us from."

Everything that they said it seemed like

they were trying to put this doubt there,

and that really wasn't the case.

They were just trying to
interview all the witnesses

before they released the information.

- The media just wants the juicy story

that's gonna to stir people
up and sell newspapers.

They don't feel the reality of the officer

that goes home and cries for hours.

That holds his kids close
because he's not sure

if he's gonna get another
day at it or face prison.

They don't look at what the suspect did.

Just what the officer did.

- You don't sell newspapers
and you don't sell commercial

time by being sensitive to
the human behind the shield.

You create sales by
sensationalizing the event.

And that's what media does.

The officer becomes a
victim of false reporting.

Now the media is not accountable
for not getting it right.

They want to be dramatic,
and they want to create

the impression that they're
the voice of conscience

and accountability in society.

Then tell the truth.

I try not to hate,

but that's hard with lying
media people and attorneys.

Authority is very threatening
and intimidating to people.

People in authority have
hurt them in their lives

or they've had a rough break,
or they feel life has not

treated them fairly.

Where do they take that out?

They take it out in prejudices.

And here's this symbol of authority.

And so the individual
projects the source of all the

distress and frustration in
life onto this individual.

- The interesting thing with
officer involved shootings

is they fit within the
perceptions of the community,

and long ago the phrase,
"Cops are Rorschachs in blue."

Rorschachs are the ink
blot tests that Jungian

psychoanalysts used to use, in
which people projected their

thoughts into this nebulous,
meaningless ink blot.

Cops are Rorschachs in blue.

They're reflections of the
community, how the community

feels about force, about
issues, about socialization.

And their reaction to shootings
and use of force by officers

are really projections of the community

and the community
perceptions on their state.

- When you ask people about
police officers today,

because of the multiple
media outlets there are,

they'll tell you a story about a cop.

"Did you see the cop on YouTube?

"Did you see what he did to that guy?

"Did you see the cop shoot that guy?"

I mean, what they see,
they get a ten second

evaluation of what cop work is all about,

and they make determinations
which shouldn't be made.

- [Patrick] In order
to get an understanding

of how police officers'
actions are perceived by those

outside of the profession,
we traveled to California

where we spoke with
Professor Matthew Sharps.

Professor Sharps is a
forensic cognitive scientist

at California State University, Fresno.

For years, he has studied the human mind

and how we process
information under stress.

- What we were interested
in was the "shoot, no shoot"

decision, per se, because
officers are frequently forced

into "shoot, no shoot"
situations under very poor visual

conditions where the lighting
is bad, where the timing

is awful, where there's
simply not enough time to make

the proper decision, and then
those same officers may very

well wind up in front of a
jury, the individuals of which

have been raised on TV where
officers will pull a two-inch

barreled revolver out of their
pocket, fire from the hip,

and hit somebody 200 yards away.

There are a lot of
unrealistic expectations.

We had one case where you
decide to shoot by pushing

a switch which stops a timer.

We had another where you shoot

a toy plastic dart gun at the screen.

Now none of us are dumb enough
to assume that's anything

like shooting a real gun,
but the idea was to see

if dividing the attention
among the targeting

and ballistic behavior
and trying to interpret

the scene would do anything.

And oddly enough it did
turn out that people

shot less with the dart gun.

What we found in a nutshell
is that when we have a person

holding a gun on another
person, about 80, 85%,

depending on the condition,
of people shoot him.

So the Spirit of '76 is alive and well.

People do shoot the bad guy.

The problem is if he's just
standing there holding a power

screw driver, waving it
around as in an argument,

about five or six people
go ahead and shoot the guy

with the gun, and
approximately the same number

shoot the guy with the power screw driver.

They just interpret it as a gun,

that's what people actually do.

The vast majority, and these
are conditions, our conditions

here are good lighting, you
got all the time in the world.

They can't tell a gun from a screw driver.

Now what gets really interesting
about that is we said,

"Okay, these people are
just gonna sit in judgement

"on police officers as potential jurors.

"Let's get rid of the
screw driver completely,

"just put in the gun."

How many of them will
think a police officer

should ever fire in those conditions?

Now, this is a must shoot situation.

We had senior commanders,

we had tactical officers
advise us on this.

We've got an individual aiming the weapon

right at a victim, okay.

Every, every one of our tactical officers,

every commander says it's
a must shoot situation.

Officer has no choice but to shoot, okay.

11% of our civilians agreed.

So, over four-fifths of our
civilians shoot the guy with the

gun, or the guy with the
screwdriver, but, about one in 10

on a 12 person jury, that's a
little over one person, thinks

an officer should never fire
under the same conditions.

Now, I think this is pretty
important for any officer

who might wind up going before a jury

as a consequence of an OIS.

- Ladies and gentleman,

it was a cold blooded,
premeditated murder.

It must be punished to the
fullest extent of the law.

Call the first witness please.

- In that work we also asked
people, "What are your reasons

"for a police officer shooting
in a situation like this?"

We got amazing things back.

The officer should not fire
unless he knows exactly what

the person is thinking about,
your local clairvoyance

kind of beep, beep, beep, you know.

How are you supposed to read minds?

Especially in the fraction of a second

you have in a shooting situation.

These are samples of what people think,

and we did not cherry pick these.

These are what people give us.

This is a female assailant.

She may be threatening a
person's life, but the officer

has to convince the
suspect to drop her gun.

Okay, how are you gonna
have that conversation?

But these are the two good ones.

These are the ones I think are important.

No, that should always
be the last ditch effort.

If necessary, shoot a leg or arm.

Take them down, not to kill.

That's right out of TV.

Here's another one.

Only if he is certain it
is a real gun, (chuckle)

and the situation poses
a threat to others.

A shot to the leg is, this
is amazing, a shot to the leg

is relatively harmless if
he is trying to escape,

which means he is most likely guilty.

I don't know if the grasp of ballistics

or constitutional law
is more appalling there.

You notice a lot of these
people, again we did not cherry

pick these responses, a lot of
people think that the officer

should shoot at the hand or the leg.

Obviously police departments
don't teach that.

They teach center mass for
very sound tactical reasons.

This is what I mean by this
huge gap between what people

think of police work, and
then the average person on the

street, as it were, thinks of
police work and what really

goes on in the real field.

- If you do a force quick
eye blink, that force quick

eye blink will take 18 one
hundredths of a second.

If you do an average eye blink,

it's about a third of a second.

So, when people say, "Oh this
happened in the blink of an

"eye", they're really talking
about a third of a second.

But if we're looking at a
punch, a very quick jab,

it's less than a fifth of a second.

If we're looking at a thrust
it's a quarter of a second.

If we're looking at the
swing of an impact weapon

like Muay Thai sticks, or a pool cue,

it's 17, 18 one hundredths of a second.

It is the speed of a quick eye blink.

If we're looking at an edge weapon attack,

our research tells us
that an edge weapon attack

can occur at a distance
of seven to nine feet,

and that can happen in
two thirds of a second.

That's one eye blink plus.

And if we look at a gun
fight, guns can be pointed

at an officer and fired
in a variety of different

circumstances depending upon
the movement and alignment

of the gun with the officer.

In other words, the assailant
is shooting directly

at the officer, or tracking and shooting,

and that time frame is a
quarter to a half a second.

(gunshots)

Officers, to shoot
someone in the arm or leg,

means the officer has
to be able to predict

that limb movement, or the
limb is not moving at all.

And I'm not arguing against limb shots.

Where possible and where needed,
I certainly would endorse

them, but an officer, well
here's an illustration.

If I'm moving my hand
around, and I'm moving

in a predictable fashion, you
can track it and follow it,

but once I begin to move
in an irregular fashion,

you cannot predict what I'm
going to do with my hands

or when I'm going to do them,

and that means you can't
be accurate with a shot.

- We tried that.

We tried.

We tried to end it
without ending her life.

But it just wasn't
possible in that situation.

- I tell you what, I'm a good shooter.

And I don't mean to brag about it,

but I shoot competitively.

I shoot three gun competitions.

I'm on the SWAT team.

I'm an intermediate
sniper on our SWAT team.

But there is a little bit
a part of me in the back

of my mind that said, well, maybe I could.

But then when I was in the
situation, I mean, it was clear.

There was barely time to
shoot him in a vital area,

plus looking at the
autopsy results afterwards,

he did get shot in the hand
and in the arm several times,

and it didn't do anything to stop him.

- There are some incidents
where it's so clear cut.

If someone coming out of a
bank holding a young woman

or an elderly woman by their
throat and pointing a gun

at them, you shoot them.

You feel good.

It's satisfying, you saved someone's life.

But those are rarities.

- And if your partner is killed,
there's always occasionally

these tragic cases where
officers are attempting a hostage

rescue, and the hostage winds
up getting shot by the police,

and maybe even killed by the police.

I've worked with a couple of
those kinds of cases, and those

are extremely traumatic for
the officers, and clearly much

more difficult for the
officers to come to terms with.

- My name is John Dempsey,
and we're at Riverdale Police

Department in Riverdale, Illinois.

I was a police officer here
for 13 years, and I have also

held other positions within
the village of Riverdale also.

I was recently promoted Sergeant.

Wally Rolniak, my partner, was killed.

We came on the job together.

We were detectives for four years together

before I was promoted to Sergeant.

The night that he was killed, my brother

was the detective sergeant on duty,

and Wally was the detective,
and I was the patrol sergeant.

They had a subject in
custody for kidnapping,

attempted murder, and
several other charges.

When the interview was
done, he was taken down

to the lock-up area by
Wally, just by himself.

At some point when Wally was
taking him down the stairwell,

the bad guy disarmed him and
took him out of the police

station at gunpoint.

- [Sgt. Dan] We have a hostage situation.

The bad guy got out of the station.

He's got Wally at gunpoint out in front.

- [Dispatcher] Where at?

- [Sgt. Dan] Out in front
of the police station.

- [Dispatcher] In front
of the police station?

- [Sgt. Dan] Yes.

He walked him across the street behind

a bar and then shot him in
the head and killed him.

(gunshot bang)

He's at Packy's, Wally's shot!

- [Dispatcher] Dan where are you?

- [Sgt. Dan] Behind Packy's.

- [Dispatcher] Behind Packy's?

Dan, okay, we're coming.

Behind Packy's.

- After that, he attempted
to car jack three other cars.

He shot one guy in the car who got away.

Attempted to car jack
another car, they got away.

- [Dispatcher] Is this an emergency?

- [Caller] Yes.

There's this guy in the middle
of 138 Street with a gun

trying to get into anybody's
car that he can get in.

- [Dispatcher] Yes, where is he now?

- And then he attempted to car

jack a third car and got away.

And by that time, myself and
other officers were on scene.

And he pointed his gun
and we got in a shoot-out

and ended up killing him.

- [Dispatcher] Do we have him?

- [Caller] Yeah they shoot him.

- [Dispatcher] Okay we're there.

Thank you.
- Alright.

- It was a good few minutes,

there was quite a shoot-out
in the middle of the street.

And the phone calls that came
in that we heard afterward,

people calling in who were witnessing,

in the middle of the street
a shoot-out with the police

and the bad guy was kind of unbelievable.

- [Dispatcher] I know, we're
all out there, thank you.

- [Patrick] Did you
ever worry that charges

might be brought against
you for your action?

- No.

And to be completely honest,

it was the only thing that helped me.

Was knowing that the guy that killed

my partner was dead also.

When people ask me about
that, that's what helped me.

A lot of people try to reach out for you,

you know, the services,
two-day services, funeral.

Overwhelming.

Did not want to talk to anybody else.

So I kinda withdrew and felt alone.

Didn't know what was gonna
happen, what I was gonna do.

Still couldn't understand
what had happened,

why it happened and everything.

Guilt, because I was
alive, I had two daughters.

My friend had just lost, lost their dad.

A lot of guilt issues.

And it was just confused,

just didn't know how to process it.

- [Patrick] What was the guilt about?

(sighs) - One was that I was
alive and that my brother

was alive, and almost, thank
God it wasn't my brother.

Then the guilt that it was Wally.

The guilt of what I felt.

But I was alive, that I
had no right feeling guilt.

I had no right to ask for
anything, to ask for help.

To feel bad, because I
was alive and he was not,

that my daughters had their father,

and that his daughters
did not have a father.

I remember the department
sent me some flowers about

a month later, I threw 'em
in the garbage and figured

"Fuck everybody, I'll
deal with it on my own."

I don't want, that's when I,
I don't wanna talk to anybody,

I don't want anybody talk to me.

'Cause I knew once it was
over, life will go on.

Nobody in my eyes, nobody would
give a shit what happened.

They'll bury him, give him the flag.

You get a medal.

That'll be in the basement
hidden with dust someday.

And the only people who really give a shit

are the ones involved.

Their days went on, and
we had to live with this

the rest of our life.

I'm sorry.

So there was a lot of anger
issues for me with that.

I had to go for an evaluation
where I met a psychologist,

which helped.

It was approximately four or
five years after the incident.

That was a big turning point for me.

And it was about the same
time I joined a bagpipe band

because I missed, I had to
be a part of the police world

in some way.

Gotta admit, that was a
big part of my healing.

I was around policemen,
a lot of retired guys,

a lot of active guys,

but they did it for the right
reasons, which I felt they

were there to honor the officers
killed in the line of duty.

That was it.

What they have done for me, is
just, I can't explain to 'em.

I don't think they understand.

And the trickle effect it had is so wide.

People, until they're involved,
could never understand.

From my wife, to my daughters,
to my family, to my parents.

My ma, my dad was gone
at the time, he had died.

My brother, sisters,
friends, old partners,

my old tac partner, to
everything, to everyday life.

The questions are, "Why are you off?" or

"Why are you retired?

"Boy you look young to be retired.

"You must be, wow, you're lucky."

It affects it today.

"Why are you in a bagpipe
band, what made you join?

"What's the sticker for?"

Everything.

Everything from that moment
almost seems to revolve around

that night, that three minute incident.

In three minutes I said
my whole life changed.

And now from the person I was
before that because of that

incident, I am a different
person because of that.

I accept that incident changed me,

and I am who I am today because of that.

And I have to accept that
and it's not all bad.

So I think it was the four or
five year anniversary after

he was killed I go to the cemetery.

I was gonna try and kinda
get there before any family

arrived so I could pay my
respects and leave cause I didn't

wanna, emotionally I just
didn't wanna see them.

Went to his grave, paid my
respects and I was leaving

I saw a car and I'm thinking "Oh shit",

somebody I thought I'd
kind of get in and out for.

And it was his wife Maureen
and his two daughters.

So I went up hugged each other
and I'll never forget his

daughter saying, "Oh my god
I thought everybody forgot."

And I'm like, "Honey
we haven't forgotten."

And I think the one thing
I want the families to know

is he's not forgotten and his family was,

I'll never forget his daughter saying that

when I said he's never gonna
be forgotten, I won't allow it.

- [Patrick] What is Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder?

- When you're in a very
stressful, very demanding event,

your body floods your
system with stress hormones

or chemicals that put your nervous system

into a state of very high intensity.

For some people and we're not
sure why, the nervous system

doesn't reset fully back to
normal and the person continues

to have these physical
symptoms of high intensity.

And some research shows that
if you actually test their

nervous system they do have
unusually high levels of these

stress hormone chemicals
circulating in their blood stream

when they're not under
an immediate threat.

- Over a period of time
I was not sleeping.

I mean, this went on for years.

It was probably, I would say
probably seven years after

the shooting, and it's not just
the shooting, it's the stuff

we see everyday, the dead
babies, the suicide calls.

- They may feel kind of
hopeless and disconnected from

the world and they may start
to retreat more and more.

You may start seeing things
in the case of police officers

more and more absenteeism,
changes in behavior.

- So what you do is you withdraw

and you treat your family
like they're outside,

you shut them off and so you lose them.

I don't know how many times
I've had to teach police

officers, you need to tell
your loved ones how you feel,

cause otherwise they don't
think you care about them,

they don't read you right.

They see you withdraw to a computer

or sit in the dark drinking.

They think you don't love them.

They don't realize that
you're twisted inside.

- And I remember my
wife packed up and left.

It was a Sunday afternoon
and she took my daughter.

I'm glad she did, 'cause
that's the day when I realized,

I gotta get my shit together,

and I've been taking it out
on all the wrong people.

- I believe that most instances
of uses of lethal force

are life changing, and never go away.

Doesn't mean you can't work,

doesn't mean you're gonna
become a shoplifter.

I have post traumatic stress
disorder several times.

I can't count as many
times as I've had it.

And all it means is an
incident pierced your calluses,

you're not able to use
your normal psychological

defenses to deal with it.

The mind stopped processing
things the way it normally did.

So you wanna call it post
traumatic stress disorder fine,

but it's an infection in the soul,

of the mind and the soul and the heart.

And that doesn't change.

There's research I've
read that states that two

out of every three people who
are law enforcement officers

that use lethal force will
have short lived the finite

stress reactions but go away,

and one third will have
prolonged and severe.

I believe that.

- In me coming forward, it
made the door, I can't believe

how many people came up to me
out of this job that I work

with and said, "I had the same thoughts.

"I thought about suicide,
I thought about this."

Going through a divorce or whatever,

and that they thought about stuff,

and I'm like I made it
okay to be public about it.

- Couple of weeks after
my shooting I sat down

on my couch in my living
room, put my gun in my mouth.

I was done, I couldn't take it.

I was going crazy,

just the thoughts that
were going through my mind.

I had two little kids
sitting down the hallway

in bed and that's what stopped me.

Never in my thought process
did I think I was wrong.

I didn't think I was crazy.

It was just there, I
couldn't take it, I was done.

I had the opportunity to sit
down with some really, really

good psychologists afterwards,
even after that had happened.

I sat down with my doctor and
he looked at me, and he goes,

"Before you say a word,
I want to tell you that

"you're experiencing A-B-C-D-E",

and he went down the list of things.

And I hit every checkmark.

And he said, "You're perfectly
normal for doing that."

- A commander who calls a
cop who's off duty after

a shooting incident, will
gain for themselves a loyal

employee who'll follow
them into hell's mouth.

A commander who ignores their officer,

will buy for themselves an
embittered, often cynical police

officer who feels, "Well gee,
I could have died and this

"department don't care enough
to find out how I'm doing".

Very rarely is there ever
a concern expressed about,

"Are you okay?

"You faced death, we're
glad you're alright.

"Is there anything I can do for you?"

Because the liability concerns
of people in management

often determine how
that officer is treated.

Many officers have told me
that what really traumatized

them about their shooting
was not the shooting itself,

but how they were treated afterwards.

- Pretty much rolled up
on, an active shooting

in the middle of the
street, just randomly.

Guy gets killed.

When I got there I could see
people running with guns.

Guy has a gun in his waistband
and he's digging for it.

And I start pulling on the trigger.

And I stopped.

Something told me, "Let
him get the first shot off.

"Just one round.

"Hope he doesn't get you in the face,

"but just let him get that one round off."

The streets were so crowded.

I knew someone would see
him shoot at me first.

The scene calmed down, he ditched his gun,

everything was okay.

I was clearly shaken up,
because I realized I was going

to let someone shoot at
me 'cause I was terrified

of the repercussions.

I knew if I'd pulled that trigger again,

that would have been
the third in 18 months.

I would have been so screwed.

I would have been a trigger-happy,

abusive whatever cop, and
I didn't pull the trigger,

and I should have.

And the chief shows up on the
scene about 10 minutes later,

and he walks right over
to me, next to a dead guy,

and he says, "Ian, you're
one of the most cursed

"individuals I've ever met.

"You are like a shit magnet."

- My chief showed up not long
after that, and he asked me

if I was alright, and we
talked for a few minutes.

My chief, during that
whole process, that night,

I could not have asked for a
better treatment with that.

And I think it was due to his experience,

having been through it
himself and being a cop's cop.

He knew what I was going
through at the time.

- That night our former chief

went to the family's
house of the perpetrator.

Went to his family's house,
and sat with them for a while

and told them everything
that was gonna happen

with the investigation.

I didn't hear from him
for about two weeks.

- And I've actually been involved
in deadly force situations

where an officer has been
disciplined completely unrelated

to the use of deadly force;
either the car chase or the way

they handled the radio traffic,
or the way that responding

units were handling the situation.

Whereas the criminal
investigation, they were clear,

and the grand jury, they were cleared.

But the department, either
for a training purpose,

or for just straight discipline,

had some problems with
the officer's actions.

- Honestly, right now, I'm terrified.

I don't know what's going
on as far as my department.

I don't know what's actually
happening, but I feel like,

kinda like a guinea pig or
about to get thrown up under the

bus, 'cause you hear about
stuff like that happening so I'm

like okay, it's been 15 months,
I'm not back on the road.

Y'all making up some kind of phony policy

that I so-called violated
in their opinion?

- In the administrative end
the department is looking

at whether or not they followed policy,

whether or not they followed state laws,

so in that regard it is the department.

With the homicide investigation,
it's the investigators

who are familiar with
the use of deadly force

making a determination.

In the prosecutorial
investigation, it's the prosecutors

who are presumed to know the
law and then work through it,

looking at all the facts.

But ultimately, when you stand
in front of a grand jury,

those are private citizens.

- The same system and
processes that criminals

are put through, are the
only ones that are available

in an investigation.

There's no separate procedure
for police officers.

We know you're a good
person, we know you wanted

to get this person help,
they didn't let you.

- [Patrick] Were you worried
that you might get charged

or sued?

- No.

Not at all.

- No, and only because he shot me first.

I mean, there's really no
better example of self-defense.

He shot me in the head.

- Yes.

But at the same time, I
know I did the right thing.

- My biggest fear was a grand jury.

- Policemen can't get a, in my opinion,

can't get a fair shot in a
grand jury investigation.

- You can have an officer
cleared in the administrative

investigation, cleared in
the criminal investigation,

cleared by the prosecutor's office,

including the grand jury,

and then they can still get sued.

When the officer's cleared
of the criminal charges

and the administrative investigation,

well all they know is that
they're not gonna go to jail,

they're not gonna be criminally charged,

and they're not gonna be
suspended or terminated.

- They should expect it.

They are likely to be sued,
because people can always

sue you, whether or not
you did anything wrong.

- I am being sued.

There's a civil suit going on right now.

Brought by, well the
suspect's father, the estate.

- What upset me was when I
got called into the States

Attorney's Office and the
first word out of the States

Attorney are, "What's it
gonna take to settle this?"

And I came unglued, I said,
"We're not settling anything.

"It's your job to defend me,
and to defend this county."

"Well, it might be cheaper to
just give him a small payout."

"No, because then that goes on my record."

- This one they sued us
for, was it $3 million?

And that went on for, I bet
it was close to three years

before that, before they
withdrew that lawsuit.

- Being involved in the actual
shooting's stressful enough,

and then you gotta deal
with, years afterwards,

of wondering if you're gonna
lose your house, your job.

It was tough.

- It almost makes you angry
to think, I mean like I said,

100% did what I had to do,
know it's what I had to do,

but then to think, you're
basically gonna punish my kids

and my wife 'cause, you know.

- You made poor choices.

- Yeah.

- [Patrick] What are some of
the things that you've seen

in your research, or
working with the officers,

that they experience after a shooting?

- Guilt.

I know one guy that,

he felt guilty 'cause
he didn't feel guilty.

- Over time, I wasn't feeling guilty,

but I ended up feeling guilty
because I didn't feel guilty.

Does that make sense?

- What bothers me is how could a person

put himself in that situation,
jeopardize his life?

And the people that it's gonna affect,

it's not him, it's his family.

It's the officer.

- Because no matter
who pulled the trigger,

the end result is the same.

It's that a mother and a
father are without a daughter.

Friends are without a loved one.

No one wins on any end.

The only thing I walked away
with that night was my life.

Everything else is a loss.

The family of that girl
will never understand.

I will never understand.

I'm done asking questions.

I'm done thinking, "Why
did she make me do that?"

Because the bottom line is,
is it doesn't matter, not now.

I could've helped her,
I wanted to help her.

I envisioned, when I first
got there, even with the gun,

I envisioned me sitting
at the hospital with her,

talking to her.

There is not a day that goes
by that I don't see her face,

and wish she had let me help her.

- I think I separated myself
from it for a very long time.

I knew what happened,
I knew I was involved,

but I couldn't allow
myself to feel their pain.

- [Patrick] Did you try to
distract yourself from it?

- Yeah.

I ate a lot.

I've gained a lot of
weight since that occurred.

So, emotional eating.

- I was involved in a shooting
myself when I was a young

police officer, killed a
guy who was trying to murder

my partner with a butcher knife.

And one of the things in the
training that I received,

when I was a young police
officer they said to me,

"If you get involved in a
shooting, you're gonna experience

"these three things, these
four things, these five things,

"whatever," in training seminars.

Lo and behold, I get
involved in my shooting,

and I never had a problem sleeping,

never had a problem with
appetite, so on and so forth.

And I was thinking to myself,

"Maybe there's something wrong with me."

Because I was told that all this bad stuff

was gonna happen and that didn't happen.

Now, I had some other negative
reactions, but that has

more to do with my philosophy
on life and my religious

upbringing, and so on and
so forth, and the doctrines

that I held to in terms of my faith.

The whole notion of "Thou shalt not kill,"

and what does it mean, and
many people say actually

it means, "Thou shalt not murder."

And there's a distinct difference between

malice aforethought and defending oneself,

or trying to protect another person.

But I think that if someone has a sense,

whether it's rooted in
religious faith from

one of the Abrahamic faiths
or from some other locus,

another religious tradition,
or for whatever reason

that's just how their
philosophy in life is,

taking a life or severely
injuring someone,

can be something that is disconcerting.

- [Patrick] Did you ever have
any spiritual considerations

after your shooting?

- I was raised in church.

I consider myself a man of faith

and I consider myself a Christian.

And one of the things you hear
over and over and over again

is, "Thou shall not kill."

I mean, you hear that over
and over and over again.

Based on my interpretation of
what I've read and what I've

been taught growing up, I
don't know of any exceptions

in there that, "Thou shall not
kill", except for in combat

or in suicide by cops
situation or whatever.

On that end of it, yeah,
'cause it's kinda worrisome.

- I remember saying to my mom,
I said, 'cause right after

the shooting I went down
and I said, "I killed a man,

"and I wonder if God will forgive me."

- Do I have to drop down
on my knees and beg God

for forgiveness for taking somebody?

Well no, because, again,
it wasn't my call to make.

It wasn't a decision

that I made to put him there with a gun.

The decision I made was to go
home, was to save my own life.

And so I'm pretty sure my
God will be okay with that.

- I believe in God.

And one of the commandments
says, "Thou shall not kill."

But in my job I had to kill in
order to try to save a life.

- What I have found, the
biggest thing I've found

in officers with faith is
that they tend to perform

extremely well, especially
when it's in defense of others.

That's the great thing about Pete's story.

You've probably talked to him.

But he saw himself as
being put there by God

and that he had special
skills and a special ability

to end this developing blood bath.

- Let's try to come up with
a mathematical, statistical.

What would the word be for it?

Not equation, something much
more complicated, algorithm.

Okay, space and time, a given
area, a given distance, okay.

It's pitch black, this guy
we don't know where he lives,

and for me to be sent there
to get there as fast as I did

and then place myself in a
position of his line of travel

where I intercepted him or
got his attention to the point

where he has ambushed me, and
then there's a confrontation,

it was stopped.

Two in the morning, seriously,
is that coincidence?

My mother's very, very,
very religious and she goes,

this was her analysis of the whole thing.

It wasn't to do with
what had just happened.

You know what her response was?

She goes, "You know, you are
so unscathed that I am very

"interested to see what
he's preparing you for."

- Human beings are resilient.

If you think about it, we didn't
get to the top of the food

chain as a species by being
a bunch of pantywaists.

And human beings have been
involved in conflict against

other animals because we
haven't always been predators,

we were prey for a long time,

and in some places in the
globe we're still prey.

And at any rate we're resilient
in the face of challenges,

physical challenges, combat,
and so I think that what

happens very simply is most
police officers, like most

human beings are resilient,
and they triumph in a moment.

They survive a shooting,
it's a major life event,

they integrate it into their
life and they move forward.

- Your brain has to
assimilate and accommodate it,

and so it's normal to dwell
on it over and over and over

again for a period of time.

What we want to see happening
is that this gradually

begins to drop off.

As your brain makes sense of
it and you start to accommodate

it into your life view
and come to terms with it,

you gradually think about it
less and less, you dream about

it less and less, until eventually
it becomes like any other

exciting and/or stressful
memory, where you can think about

it but you don't have
that same sense of mental

and emotional intensity.

- My experience is the vast
majority of officers are good

cops, know what their business
is, handle things correctly.

If a mistake is made, it's
often times because they weren't

thinking correctly, they didn't
have sound training, so on

and so forth, but that leads
us down a whole other path.

- My name's Steven Roach.

I've been a police officer
for 17 and a half years.

My dad became a police officer
when I was four years old,

went to the police academy,
so I was just a little kid

watching him start his
career and from that point on

that was the only thing
that I ever wanted to do.

I always wanted to be a policeman.

I think the problem that I experienced was

it was not what I had pictured
or what I had envisioned

to happen, both during the
incident and afterwards.

I would say that I thought
that, every shooting situation

or most situations like that
you would have time and you

actually make that decision,
conscious decision to pull

the trigger, or to do whatever
may be that needs to be done,

but that's not always the case
and that's what I learned.

It was April of 2001.

I was working what we
called a late power shift

for Cincinnati Police.

It was 8 p.m. to 4 a.m.

and I was just running a regular beat car.

A one man unit in Over-The-Rhine,
which is a neighborhood

that at the time was a lot
of drugs, a lot of crime,

a lot of guns, and a lot of violence.

- [Patrick] Who was Timothy Thomas?

- Timothy Thomas was a
young man who was wanted

for warrants, most of
them traffic violations.

- An officer that was working a bar detail

noticed an individual walk
by that was known to him

and was known to have multiple warrants.

He tried to stop that individual.

- Timothy Thomas took off running.

He ran through an alley
and a community called

Over-the-Rhine where I
pastored for 25 years.

As Timothy Thomas jumped over a wall--

- Went down a, kind of a breezeway.

I've never been back there before,

not really sure what there was back there.

I continued down the breeze-way
and the guy that had fled

came around the corner and
he had one hand in his pants

and one hand on his waistband.

He was kinda looking behind him.

At that point I stopped, drew my firearm,

and ordered him to show me his hands.

At that point, he came out
with the hand that was in his

pants, but he was continuing
towards me and he brought

his hand out towards me and
my instant thought was gun.

He's got a gun.

- And running towards
Officer Roach, Officer Roach

pulled his service revolver,
and shot Timothy Thomas,

and he died there in
the alley on that night.

- When his hand went out
from within his frame,

that's when I could see that
there was nothing in there.

- And he was an unarmed black
teenager who was gunned down,

so the community wanted answers,
his mother wanted answers.

Why was her son shot?

(crowd chanting) - We want
answers, we want answers.

- I was extremely upset
over this situation.

It was very

difficult because I knew
at that moment that,

that bullet was intended
for something that

didn't end up to be true.

What I had seen initially
was not the case.

Before he's even taken away
from the scene the Commanding

Officer from the department,
who's referred to as the Night

Chief, he's the Captain, came up to me.

He was probably there
within 20 or 30 seconds.

He happened to be close
by when it happened,

and he grabbed a hold of me
and asked me, "What happened?"

And at that point I was still in a daze.

I couldn't tell you what
happened, and my response was,

"I don't know, the gun just went off.

"It just went off."

And the main reason was I
didn't know what had happened.

Everything had happened so
fast and I didn't have that

chance to make those
conscious decisions that I had

envisioned, and I didn't really know

why things had happened,
other than what I had seen,

but I also knew at this point
that he didn't have a gun.

I was called back to the homicide
unit on that Monday night.

It was late.

I think I went at like 9
p.m. for a second interview.

Basically that second interview
they showed me a video

that they had that did see
me going down the breezeway.

You hear the shot on the video.

(gunshot bang)

- What the fuck was that?
- Shot fired.

- Then the investigator basically
tears into me saying that

what I'm telling them that
happened, that he had had his

hands in his pants and that
when I told him to show me his

hands and he produced that
in my direction, he's telling

me that that cannot happen,
that it's impossible.

- [Detective] It's killing
me inside having to say this.

But your story don't add up.

I don't want to be in this
position, I'd give anything

in the world to be taken off
this case right now, 'cause

I don't like the position I'm
going to have to be put in,

but I chose to be in homicide,
but I'll tell you one thing

a reckless act is a hell of
a lot more serious than a

negligent act to where you
startled and you ripped one off.

It don't add up to the
shooting the way you described.

I think it was an accidental
shooting, like this guy scared

the living shit out of you
when he came around the corner

and without you even realizing,
you jerked the trigger

on your gun, and you got
about the worst fucking luck

in world 'cause yours
goes right through him.

- At that point I started
thinking to myself maybe

he's right, because I didn't
make the conscious decision

and it was the training and I
really didn't know why I had

pulled the trigger.

So maybe he was right,
maybe I did have my finger

on the trigger, maybe he did startle me.

So after probably an hour
of him drilling me on that

I agreed that maybe that was the case,

maybe I did accidentally pull the trigger.

- [Detective] Am I correct
saying now it was totally

an accidental discharge
in you firing your weapon?

- [Stephen] Yes.

- [Detective] And you
made no intent whatsoever

to shoot and kill Timothy Thomas?

- [Stephen] No.

- The bullet was an accident?
- Yes.

- [Detective] Okay.

- And as soon as I said that,

pretty much the interview was over.

And then when I walked
out and saw the chief

and got my bearings about
myself, and I realized that that

was not the case, that I gave
him the command let me see

your hands and that his hand
had come forward towards me,

and I never again had the
chance to correct that.

- There was three things happening,

there was protest, there
was civil disobedience,

and there was legitimate rebellion.

Protest marches happening
during the day continuously.

As nightfall came,
there was more rebellion

and more civil disobedience.

Young people took over the streets.

Their anger spilled over,

and the streets became
theirs for three days.

We went into city hall, demanded answers.

I was the president of
the Black United Front,

which interestingly enough was
an organization that started

the year before when 13
downtown restaurants closed

their doors during a Jazz
Festival and wouldn't

serve African Americans.

So we went into city hall
and we got no answers.

We told them to lock the doors,

nobody's leaving 'til we get answers.

Members of the Black United
Front will stand at the doors,

because nobody leaves
until we get an answer.

The question is why was he shot?

- Nobody's leaving.

(clapping)
(shouting)

- We eventually left and that's when

people took over the streets,

and it was an interesting time.

- There was looting of
stores, there were fires.

There were people just throwing things,

throwing all kinds of things, rocks,

and it was just chaos, it was total chaos.

(yelling)

I don't know.

I have just never seen so much,

just disorder and chaos.

- And some people wanted to
characterize it as a race riot.

It was not.

There were black and
white people out there.

People were angry at police brutality.

- Most of that, what was
going on really had nothing

to do with the incident itself,
because there were a lot

of questions that were not
being released by the department

and a lot of unknowns,

but I beared, I felt the
weight of all of that on me.

- But what happened in
Cincinnati was not about race.

There were and are good
white people who supported

the struggle, who still
support the struggle.

- It was probably close to a month

after the incident that it was,

went to a grand jury.

We were not asked to take
a part in the grand jury.

I found out about the indictments
like everybody else did

by watching it on TV,
watching a press conference.

- Count one charges Stephen
Roach with negligent homicide.

Count two in the two count indictment,

is a charge of obstructing
official business.

- The shooting occurred in April of 2001.

He was indicted by a grand
jury on misdemeanors only,

therefore the case was sent
back to Municipal Court,

misdemeanor court.

There's 14 judges there.

The case was randomly rolled

and it was rolled to me
by essentially lottery.

Everyone was sympathetic
to me like something awful

was about to happen to me or
had already happened to me.

So I was oblivious to that
because I was excited about

having such an interesting case to try

with so many interesting
issues and all the experts.

- It would be easier for me
to say it was an accident,

but I'm not saying that.

That shot was fired
intentionally, which is a harder

thing to say and it's a harder
thing to live with because

I intended to do that,

just the circumstances
turned out to be different

than what I believed at that exact moment.

I was indicted in May of
2001, and the trial began

on September 17th, 2001, six
days after September 11th.

- The trial, I felt conflicted,
because you hear some

evidence that's not favorable
to Officer Roach and then

cross examination makes it
come back to being favorable,

so as a judge there's
some waves where it's like

"Oh, they've got some strong evidence,

"oh, the defense attorney
kinda changed the facts

"around on that and now
it's not so strong.".

So a trial with kind of ebbs and flows.

- I think I was portrayed
as someone who was careless

and acted somewhat recklessly
and because of that,

that this accident happened
and because of this accident

and my reckless behavior that
this person had been killed.

- At some point towards the
end of the trial I actually

was upset that the prosecution
had even proceeded because

it was so clear by the end,
after hearing all the experts

called by the defense, that
if they would have been

in front of the grand
jury, the grand jury,

I don't think they would
have even indicted him.

- I don't think we had
any great expectations

that he would be found
guilty, not in this system.

The fact that he was indicted
gives some people a sense

of "Okay, maybe this time.".

The fact that the coroner
would rule it murder

or maybe this time.

But when he walks home out
of the court room scot-free,

Timothy Thomas is lying in the ground,

his mother lost her son.

We've seen it before.

- I wish people that were
still against my decision

would watch the whole trial.

If someone really watched
the whole trial, I think all

reasonable people would make
the same decision I made.

I can't let sympathy enter
in as part of my decision

in this case.

Police Officer Roach,
you've been found not guilty

of the charges in this indictment.

You are free to go.

Thank you.

- [Patrick] Who was Timothy Thomas?

- He was a 19 year old, young father

of a young child at the time.

I know his criminal
history was not violent.

- [Patrick] Is there guilt?

- Yes.

Regardless of what happens
I still know that I took

somebody's life and I'm
guilty of that, whether it be

criminally wrong or what, I
know that that's what I did.

- [Patrick] If you had a
message for him, if you had

a thought about him, what
would it be right now?

- I don't have a message for him.

My message would be for Angela Leisure.

And that I hope she continues
to deal with that grief,

the loss of her son.

That would be my message.

- These people might have been
insignificant in ya'll lives,

but they were our lives.

- [Patrick] Have you told your children?

- No.

But I think there's enough
out there, with media now

and the ability to look up the
past, that there's no doubt

if I don't tell them
they're gonna find out.

And I'd much rather them find out from me.

So I'm not really sure when,
but I know that day is coming.

- [Patrick] Have you thought
about how you'll say it?

- I've thought about it,
but I really don't know

how I'm gonna say it yet.

It's kind of a hard
thing to tell your kids.

- [Patrick] Do you think
they'll still see you as a hero?

- I hope so.

- [Patrick] What was it
like to go back to work?

- I drove to the very
spot where the shooting

had happened 15 days before.

And I stopped my car in
the middle of the road.

And I picked up the microphone.

I said, "Salt Lake
Charlie 35, I'm on duty,"

and the dispatcher said, "Welcome back."

And so did every one of my peers.

- Within the first week I
was at two shots fired calls

in the same block that I was
shot in, which was kinda odd.

That was kinda, I didn't
hesitate, but it was just, you get

that kinda tingly warm feeling
that you've been here before.

That first week we went
to, my partner and I,

I was in the two man car one
night, we had to go to a call,

and the only place to park
my cruiser was the same spot

that I got shot in, and had
to get out of the car right

where I was when I got shot,
and that was kinda weird.

I got outta that little area pretty quick,

got to the other side of the street.

- I was off for three
days, went back to work,

and one of the first guys
as I walked in the station,

he goes, "Hey killer how you doing?"

It's like, "Holy cow.

"You've never been through it,

"but yet you just call me
killer walking in the door?"

And so the way that people treat you

was a little bit different.

All of a sudden I'm put on this pedestal

like I'm better than everybody else.

Well, you know I wasn't.

I was one of the worst shots at the range.

People joked that the
safest place on the range

is in front of my gun.

And here everybody thinks I'm
a hero because I did this.

Now when I'd go out the
next month and qualify,

I had three or four of the
younger officers standing

behind me kinda watching what I did.

I didn't do anything different.

I was missing the target
just like I always had.

- The one thing that really
ticked me off, personally,

was the phrase, "How are you doing?"

After about the 100th person
to ask me how I was doing,

I didn't like that question
being asked to me anymore.

For what it's worth, "I was fine."

I just killed somebody.

How do you think I'm doing?

So, you know, I lied to people.
"I'm fine," I wasn't fine.

- He'd say, "I'm okay
fine, Doc, I'm okay-fine."

Well, when a cop would
tell me that I would think

what they're really saying is,

"My guts are burning, I
think I'm gonna vomit,

"I'm not telling you nothing, Blum.

"You wanna know what I feel?

"Read my mind."

That's "I'm okay-fine.'"

They weren't okay-fine.

They were horrified by
what they had to do.

Hopefully in 10 years you're
through with the lawsuit.

You've made peace with the memories.

It's not that they've gone away,

but you make peace with them.

And that's what you hope for.

- It's been 25 years and it
still seems like yesterday.

- To this day when I drive by
that street my head itches.

I don't know why, but my scar will itch.

- Now in everything I'm
focused, I'm more alert.

Even off-duty.

You go to a store, you're
always looking out.

- Professionally?

I've slowed down.

I have slowed down.

Three kids and a wife at home.

My incident, from the minute
I closed my driver door,

from the time the last bullet rang out,

was I believe 18 seconds.

If it can happen that
quick I'm gonna slow down.

- That shooting made me
realize what I had to lose.

My kids.

At the time both my parents were alive.

My friendships, I took
all of that for granted.

Now I take life a little bit sweeter.

And I don't miss out,
and I know for a fact

that life can change
in a very fast second.

- Once you see evil face
to face, you're changed.

You're never the same.

How can you be the same after seeing that?

But I'm a strong person.

I've been through a lot in my adult life,

and my faith keeps me going.

- Once I retire and give this
badge up, I'm still gonna be

on the world wide web, all
you gotta do is google it.

I'm gonna be the murderer
cop that everybody said I was

on that day.

- If you're an administrator
and have never been through

a shooting, you aren't
gonna know what impact

it has on an officer.

You can go to classes and Larry
Blum can talk to you about

what happens to an officer,
but until you've been there

and you've lived that and
you've experienced it.

Somebody that has never
been, a police chief's never

been through a shooting,
probably wouldn't walk up

and give his officer a hug.

He wouldn't know.

He would think, "Well I've
gotta be the strength here."

Well, you know what,
you don't have to man.

You can walk up and cry.

And I've done that with two of my officers

here that were involved in a shooting.

We sat in this office and cried together.

- I didn't show no emotion out there.

I didn't,

I didn't show no emotion,
I just went with the flow,

you could say, but in your
head of course you're like,

"Fuck, this just happened."

So, I'm at the point
that it's in the past.

I just hope that it doesn't happen again.

But if it comes down to
it, it comes down to it.

(gunfire)

(faint sirens wailing)

(gunfire)

(radio chatter)

- [Officer] Secure the whole scene.

- This month is one year.

We were checking license here

and the two officers had cars strung.

There was just lot of cars waiting

to go through the checkpoint.

And so I started checking
license and I was doing

the assembly line, checking
license, and I was like,

"Okay, looks good, okay, looks good."

And the traffic kind of
got held up for a second,

and I got this lady's ID.

I looked at it, and it was
the same last name that

the suspect had, and
the same road address,

and I went, "Oh, crap."

And I looked at her and it was his wife.

And I looked at her
and she knew who I was,

and I think she saw the
surprise in my face.

I looked back at her and
she said, "Do I know you?"

I said, "Yes, ma'am you do."

She said, "I've been praying for you."

And I said, "Well I appreciate that.

"I need all the prayer I can get."

She said, "I know you went through a lot.

"But we both went through a lot."

And I said, "Yes, ma'am I
have, and I appreciate it."

I gave her her license back
and I said, "Drive safely."

She said, "Have a good day."

She said, "The Lord works in
mysterious ways doesn't he?"

I said, "Yes, ma'am."

- [Patrick] Let's just say
he did go up to that truck.

- Okay.

- Devil's advocate.
- Right.

- [Patrick] He did go up to that truck.

He did shoot somebody.

What now goes through your mind?

- Why didn't I do my job,
what I was trained to do?

Why didn't I react fast enough?

Why did I hesitate?

There's a moment in time
where your number's called,

and you step up and you answer the call.

And that's what I did.

I didn't think about it.

I reacted.

And I did my job.

(sirens wailing)

(faint yelling)

- I don't like some police
officers interpersonally,

'cause many of you can
be very irritating to me,

but what you stand for is
something I value greatly.

- [Patrick] A look, if only a glimpse,

of what it means to be
an officer involved.

(soft rock music)