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[slow twangy music]
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♪ People say I'm no good
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- [Reporter] Through the ages,
philosophers and theologians
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have debated the nature of evil.
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Is it a physical force?
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Can it be measured, understood,
predicted, or altered?
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Is evil a cause
and effect or is it
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simply the absence of good?
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On this broadcast,
we come face to face
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with a man that
many say inspired
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and committed the
crime of the century.
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His name is Charles Manson.
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[unsettling music]
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- Benwood-McMechen sits
right along the Ohio River.
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It's one of those
places where you were
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a coal miner, a railroad
worker or a steel worker
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and everybody seemed
to get along real well.
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It was one of those situations
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where you didn't
lock your house.
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There was a lotta camaraderie
there and it was very cordial.
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- [Don] McMechan, West Virginia.
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It's one the many little
mill and mining towns
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that cling to hills
along the Ohio River.
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[unsettling music]
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- McMechen was a
small, small town.
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Everybody knew everybody,
everybody's mother knew you.
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Charles, he was a first grader
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and he came to live
with his grandmother.
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- [Don] Most people here
don't remember Charles Manson,
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but this was the
closest thing he had
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to a hometown when
he was growing up.
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He lived with an aunt
and uncle in this house.
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School records in McMechen show
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Manson was an average student
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in the second, third,
and fourth grades.
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- This area of Benwood-McMechen
was quite unique.
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There was five grocery stores
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and there were four churches
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and 32 bars.
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[unsettling music]
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But it was a nice
town to grow up in.
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You got a milk man
delivered your milk
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and the grocery store
delivered your groceries.
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But it was a,
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it was a good community.
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[unsettling music]
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In no way did it reflect
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the
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outcome of a person
like Charles Manson.
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Of course, we didn't
know then who he was
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nor did we know what
he would become.
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[dramatic music]
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[haunting music]
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- I'd have to say
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when a child is treated the
way he was, you're doomed.
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I don't think you
stand much of a chance.
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I mean, he could've
gone a different way.
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I don't know, I guess the
cards didn't fall that way.
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But he wasn't what I
would call a bad person.
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He was a person who might
have tried to be better.
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But it was hard.
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[muffled religious music]
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They went to church here
at the Nazarene Church
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here in McMechen, which
is a small church.
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[muffled religious music]
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And I was friends with his
aunt and uncle and grandmother.
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[gentle music]
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[clicking]
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[clicking]
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[gentle music]
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His uncle's name was
Bill, his aunt was Glenna,
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and they all worked for the B&O,
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which was a very
good job to have.
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It was really the
highest paid in the city.
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[train whistle blowing]
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They were nice people,
they really were,
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A lot of very talented musically
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and Mrs. Maddox, that's
Charles' grandmother,
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who was just a wonderful,
wonderful woman.
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I mean, I can't imagine anyone
who didn't really love her.
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She was such a sweet,
good person, yeah.
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- [Manson] My grandma was
a mountain girl [chuckles]
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from Kentucky, up
in the mountains,
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and she never did drink
or smoke or cuss or lie.
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She used to cook for
the Salvation Army
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and she was a human being.
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A good one.
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- [Virginia] She lived her faith
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and she kinda led people
to her way of thinking,
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which was a good way of
thinking, but I don't know
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if Charles' mother
wanted to adhere to that.
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She seemed to love a good time,
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a little bit of
partying, and there was,
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there was mention of
that from time to time.
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- The Nazarene
Church had several
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edicts for his young people.
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They included: you had to
go to church every Sunday,
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you had to obey your parents,
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no going to the movies,
no sinful dancing.
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And above all, you could
not become over familiar
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with members of
the opposite sex.
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[unsettling music]
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There was a lot of rebellion,
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as there always has
been with young people
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growing up under
fundamentalist church rules,
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but Charlie's mother Kathleen
was really the exception
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in that she would actually
dare to put up her hair,
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sneak into a short dress that
might leave her arms bare,
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which was just a carnal
act, and go out to dance.
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But Ashland was too small.
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If you tried to
dance or if you even
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smiled at a boy, mama
would hear about it.
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So, she would sneak
across the river
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to try to get away
from her mother
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and just have what
she considered
innocent fun, dancing.
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Once she came back home
pregnant, she was pretty much
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held up as an example
to the other kids.
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"See? You don't
follow the rules,
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"this is gonna happen to you."
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[gentle music]
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Charles Manson was not,
as he likes to claim,
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an illegitimate baby
who was known as No Name
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because there was some doubt
as to who was his father.
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It was always known that
his biological father
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was a man named Colonel Scott.
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Not a military man, an
older man, a married man
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who'd pretty much
seduced Charlie's
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teenage mother at a dance hall.
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We don't know much
about William Manson,
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but he was somebody
that apparently
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had also met Kathleen
at the dance halls.
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He married her and he went
into the marriage well aware
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that his wife was pregnant
with another man's child.
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[unsettling music]
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Ultimately, he was named Charles
Milles Manson in honor of
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his deceased grandfather,
Charles Milles Maddox.
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For Manson, as a child,
he was never living
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in any one place for too long.
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His mother moved
too much for that.
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For the first four and a
half years of his life,
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Charlie mostly lived in a
series of homes and apartments
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stretching from Cincinnati
in Ohio all the way
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to McMechen with Ashland,
Kentucky in between.
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And when his Uncle
Bill and Aunt Glenna
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lived in Charleston,
West Virginia,
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sometimes Charlie and his
mother would live with them.
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So, it was pretty
much a move around
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life for the little boy.
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The constant in it,
besides his mother,
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was his grandmother, who
would always be nearby.
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- [Reporter] Most of us work
hard to provide our homes
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with every possible
comfort for our children.
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We safeguard their health,
we strive to put before them
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good examples of moral living,
of manners and deportment.
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- Charlie's grandmother
believed that
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if she did not bring her
children up in the right way,
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they were not only going to
hell, but she would, too,
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because she would've
let down the Lord.
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Particularly because
her husband had died,
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she was worried about her
two youngest children,
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Luther and Kathleen, who
she believed were growing up
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without a father's influence
and therefore had tendencies.
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[unsettling music]
The last game is over,
the last movie out.
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The American citizen has a
final alterative to home.
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In another currently
flourishing institution.
The night club.
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- During the first few
years of Charlie's life,
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even when Kathleen
was still married,
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she began going out with her
brother Luther and his friends
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and she was not
behaving in the way that
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a mother with a child
was supposed to behave.
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Her marriage to
William Manson didn't
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last that long, about
two and a half years.
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He left her and cited that
Kathleen was unfaithful,
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she was gone most of the time,
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and he made very clear
in the divorce decree
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that there had been no
issue from their marriage,
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meaning that he said in court
Charlie was not his child.
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That meant he didn't have
to pay child support.
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[unsettling music]
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- [Interviewer]
When you were a boy,
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did you love your mother?
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- [Manson] I didn't
know what that was.
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[unsettling music]
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- When Charlie was about
four and a half years old,
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Kathleen and her brother
Luther got a little bit wilder.
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The night came when Kathleen
and Luther's girlfriend, Julia,
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decided to go out on
the town a little bit.
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The ladies go out to a club
and there they meet a gentleman
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and decided this guy had money
and they wanted some of it.
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They went to a phone
and called up Luther.
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Luther told them, "Get
the guy in his car
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"and drive to this filling
station on the edge of town.
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"I will be waiting there."
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Luther shows up, he
has in his possession
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a ketchup bottle
filled with salt,
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which he tries to stick
in the guy's back and say,
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"This is a gun, I've
got you covered. .
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00:12:29,749 --> 00:12:31,099
"Give me your money."
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00:12:31,228 --> 00:12:35,448
And the guy said, "It's a
bottle, it's not a gun."
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At which point, Luther walloped
him over the head with it
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and they grabbed
the guy's wallet,
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found they'd made about
20 bucks in the deal,
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and drove off in his stolen car.
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The local papers think
it's the funniest thing
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they've ever had to write about
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00:12:51,074 --> 00:12:54,254
and they start writing about
the Ketchup Bottle Bandits.
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00:12:54,382 --> 00:12:56,952
Because Luther
assaulted the man,
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00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,040
hit him over the head
with a ketchup bottle,
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he gets 10 years in the
Moundsville State Prison.
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00:13:03,086 --> 00:13:05,916
Kathleen got five years.
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00:13:06,046 --> 00:13:08,086
And they are sent off
to one of the most
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00:13:08,222 --> 00:13:12,182
draconian prisons in the
entire United States.
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00:13:12,313 --> 00:13:14,143
And there's little four and
a half year old Charlie.
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00:13:14,271 --> 00:13:16,271
What's to become of him?
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00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:22,580
[slow twangy music]
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00:13:25,979 --> 00:13:27,809
♪ Come all you West
Virginia gals ♪
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00:13:27,937 --> 00:13:30,157
♪ And listen to the noise
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00:13:30,287 --> 00:13:34,117
♪ Don't you court these
West Virginia boys ♪
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♪ If you do, your
fortune will be ♪
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00:13:38,382 --> 00:13:42,212
♪ Cornbread and
bacon, you will see ♪
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♪ Cornbread and bacon
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00:13:44,998 --> 00:13:48,348
- [Jeff] We know that Charlie
is not quite five years old
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00:13:48,479 --> 00:13:50,959
when his mother went to
prison and the decision
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00:13:51,091 --> 00:13:52,831
had to be made: where
is he gonna live?
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00:13:54,616 --> 00:13:58,316
And because the jail
in Moundsville was
so close to McMechen
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00:13:58,446 --> 00:14:02,056
where his uncle and aunt and
their daughter, Joanne, lived,
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00:14:02,189 --> 00:14:04,019
the decision was made
that Charlie would
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00:14:04,147 --> 00:14:06,317
live permanently
in McMechen during
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00:14:06,454 --> 00:14:08,334
the five years of his
mother's prison term
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00:14:08,456 --> 00:14:10,886
and they could see where
he went from there.
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00:14:11,024 --> 00:14:14,854
[typewriter keys clacking]
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00:14:17,813 --> 00:14:19,993
[gentle music]
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00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:24,864
Almost as soon as
Charlie is there,
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00:14:24,994 --> 00:14:28,004
and he's had some explanation
from his grandmother,
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00:14:28,128 --> 00:14:30,868
"Mama made a mistake, she's
gonna be living in a place
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00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,960
"for a few years but you're
gonna see her all the time,"
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00:14:35,091 --> 00:14:38,271
Uncle Bill, a stern
disciplinarian
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00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:40,709
who believed that little
boys, even if they're
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00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:43,486
just four or four and
a half, do not cry,
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00:14:43,621 --> 00:14:45,891
they do not whimper,
they are tough,
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00:14:47,103 --> 00:14:49,543
took the child to Moundsville.
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00:14:49,671 --> 00:14:51,631
[prison door slamming]
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[unsettling music]
[distant chatter]
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- [Reporter] It's been
said that if Charles Manson
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00:15:01,726 --> 00:15:04,376
has any roots at all, they
are in the penal system--
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00:15:04,512 --> 00:15:05,992
- [Manson] Well, one of
my first recollections
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00:15:06,122 --> 00:15:08,042
is walking in
Moundsville State Prison
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00:15:08,168 --> 00:15:10,558
in West Virginia,
big gray stone place.
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And I come to visit
my mom, she was
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00:15:14,522 --> 00:15:17,922
doin' time there for
strong arm robbery.
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- The prison in Moundsville
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00:15:23,531 --> 00:15:26,531
is one of the most
intimidating places possible.
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00:15:26,664 --> 00:15:29,064
It looks like some
old medieval castle.
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00:15:30,799 --> 00:15:34,239
The walls were between
8 to 12 feet thick.
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00:15:35,978 --> 00:15:38,458
It was meant to be intimidating.
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00:15:42,245 --> 00:15:45,415
Every type of prisoner
was in Moundsville.
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00:15:46,946 --> 00:15:49,766
You had the people like
Luther and Kathleen
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00:15:49,905 --> 00:15:51,985
who were there because
they were too dumb
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00:15:52,125 --> 00:15:54,775
to carry out any
kind of decent crime
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00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:57,830
all the way up to the
worst kinds of criminals,
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00:15:57,957 --> 00:15:59,607
multiple murderers, rapists.
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00:16:01,612 --> 00:16:05,312
The major attraction of the
prison were the hangings.
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00:16:05,442 --> 00:16:07,882
There was standing room
only for the hangings.
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It was a bleak, horrible place
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00:16:12,145 --> 00:16:14,185
and not just for the inmates
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00:16:15,583 --> 00:16:17,803
but for family who would
wanna go visit them
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00:16:17,933 --> 00:16:19,893
because they'd sorta be forced
268
00:16:20,022 --> 00:16:21,812
into narrow little
viewing rooms.
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00:16:21,937 --> 00:16:25,807
When you saw your relative
who was an inmate,
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00:16:25,941 --> 00:16:27,201
you didn't sit across the table,
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you could never touch anyone.
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00:16:29,510 --> 00:16:32,300
There was a thick
glass partition
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00:16:32,426 --> 00:16:35,076
and you had to sit on
one side and not move
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00:16:35,211 --> 00:16:37,781
and the prisoner was
on the other side.
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00:16:37,909 --> 00:16:39,869
So, it was a horrible
experience for everyone
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00:16:39,999 --> 00:16:41,479
and it was meant to be.
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00:16:41,609 --> 00:16:44,049
[gentle music]
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00:16:45,830 --> 00:16:48,620
There's his mother on the
other side of the glass.
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00:16:48,746 --> 00:16:51,836
He can't touch her,
she can't hug him,
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and for the entire sentence,
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00:16:53,925 --> 00:16:56,745
she is never allowed
to touch her son.
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00:16:58,669 --> 00:17:02,539
And Charlie screams and he
acts girly and like a sissy
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00:17:02,673 --> 00:17:06,293
and Uncle Bill is disgusted
and drags him off.
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00:17:06,416 --> 00:17:10,116
But, on a regular
basis, never wanting
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00:17:10,246 --> 00:17:13,076
to go because the
place was so awful,
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00:17:13,206 --> 00:17:14,636
little Charlie Manson would be
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00:17:14,772 --> 00:17:18,522
taken to see his
mother in that prison.
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And every time, he had
a terrible reaction.
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He never got used to
it, but then, who would?
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- [Interviewer] Are
there happy memories?
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00:17:28,351 --> 00:17:29,921
- [Manson] I don't have that.
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00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:32,699
- [Interviewer] Or sad
memories, though, growing up?
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00:17:32,834 --> 00:17:34,184
- [Manson] I don't
have all that.
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00:17:36,577 --> 00:17:37,877
- [Interviewer] You do have it.
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00:17:38,013 --> 00:17:38,973
You have an experience,
you're an individual,
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00:17:39,101 --> 00:17:41,191
one human being,
with experiences.
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- [Manson] When you
leave, go get a big rock
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and set it on a table.
- Yeah.
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- [Manson] I'm that
rock on the table.
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00:17:48,806 --> 00:17:50,236
- Meaning what?
- I don't have
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00:17:50,373 --> 00:17:52,293
all those things.
- But you do have
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00:17:52,419 --> 00:17:54,029
all those things.
- No, no.
303
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,900
You do and you think that
I do because you think that
304
00:17:56,031 --> 00:17:58,121
my mind is like your
mind, but it isn't.
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00:17:59,948 --> 00:18:02,298
- I don't think he was
evil at the beginning.
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00:18:02,429 --> 00:18:05,739
I didn't see any signs
that Charles would've
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00:18:05,867 --> 00:18:09,737
turned into the kind
of person he ended up.
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00:18:09,871 --> 00:18:13,401
You know, it's strange
what can change your life
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because he did have a hard life
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as a child
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and she wasn't a good mother
312
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and it never got better.
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00:18:30,761 --> 00:18:32,241
It was never gonna get better.
314
00:18:34,461 --> 00:18:37,121
- Uncle Bill drank too much
315
00:18:37,246 --> 00:18:39,116
and he was very short tempered.
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00:18:40,554 --> 00:18:43,694
And Charlie was a very
disagreeable child.
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00:18:43,818 --> 00:18:46,388
Wherever he lived, he
woulda been a problem
318
00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:50,426
because he whined most of
the time, he complained.
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00:18:50,564 --> 00:18:53,784
He would just fib
incessantly about everything.
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00:18:53,915 --> 00:18:58,265
And the first grade teacher
whose class Charlie ended up in
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was known as a
really mean woman.
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Even her own colleagues,
the other teachers,
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00:19:04,012 --> 00:19:06,802
thought she was really
rough on the kids.
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00:19:06,928 --> 00:19:09,538
- I would never want one of my
children to be in her class.
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00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:12,190
I mean, the way
she ran her class
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00:19:13,543 --> 00:19:17,163
was the way you
would run a prison.
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00:19:18,722 --> 00:19:21,382
In her class, you
were placed with
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00:19:21,508 --> 00:19:23,808
what she deemed
your intelligence.
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00:19:25,816 --> 00:19:30,516
So, she would place people
together, the dumb-dumbs
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00:19:30,647 --> 00:19:34,697
and the smart kids and
the ones in the middle,
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00:19:34,825 --> 00:19:37,825
and Charles was placed
in the back of the room.
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00:19:37,959 --> 00:19:40,789
You know, this was so
crazy for first graders
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00:19:40,918 --> 00:19:45,138
because I vision a
teacher like I had
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00:19:45,271 --> 00:19:49,881
who just showed they loved
us and this was so crazy.
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00:19:51,581 --> 00:19:53,761
Didn't anybody ever
check on these people?
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00:19:53,888 --> 00:19:55,668
- [Jeff] On the
first day of school,
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00:19:55,803 --> 00:19:59,593
he came home sobbing
saying the teacher
338
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,590
had said such mean
things to him.
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00:20:02,723 --> 00:20:05,163
And very likely, she did.
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00:20:05,291 --> 00:20:06,731
I talked to other
people at McMechen
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00:20:06,857 --> 00:20:08,947
who had been in her
classes and they all agreed
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00:20:09,077 --> 00:20:12,687
that she was one of
those nasty teachers
343
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:16,480
who couldn't stand little
boys in particular.
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00:20:16,606 --> 00:20:18,866
- [Virginia] And I
can understand why
he went home crying
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00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,220
because it was really
horrible for him.
346
00:20:23,265 --> 00:20:23,865
And
347
00:20:26,181 --> 00:20:28,791
I just think he wasn't
given much of a chance.
348
00:20:31,404 --> 00:20:34,364
- Uncle Bill was horrified,
349
00:20:34,494 --> 00:20:38,674
but not that the teacher
had been harsh with Charlie.
350
00:20:38,802 --> 00:20:40,982
In those days, it
was always assumed
351
00:20:41,109 --> 00:20:44,459
if the teacher got mad at a
child, the child deserved it.
352
00:20:44,591 --> 00:20:46,511
What Uncle Bill couldn't stand
353
00:20:46,636 --> 00:20:50,596
was that this five
year old boy cried
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00:20:50,727 --> 00:20:54,427
and acted like a sissy,
he acted like a girl.
355
00:20:54,557 --> 00:20:59,297
And Joanne can remember her
father coming into her room
356
00:20:59,432 --> 00:21:03,262
and rustling among her clothes
and coming out with a dress.
357
00:21:05,873 --> 00:21:10,403
Charlie Manson told all kinds
of lies about his childhood.
358
00:21:12,053 --> 00:21:16,063
This story he didn't need
to make up or embellish.
359
00:21:16,187 --> 00:21:17,747
This is the one
that was bad enough.
360
00:21:17,885 --> 00:21:20,185
Yes, he was sent to
school in a dress
361
00:21:20,322 --> 00:21:22,672
as a five year old by his uncle.
362
00:21:22,803 --> 00:21:24,853
[soft music]
363
00:21:28,896 --> 00:21:32,936
All fathers in McMechen
were rough on their sons.
364
00:21:34,467 --> 00:21:36,597
Bill wasn't Charlie's
father but he
365
00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:39,600
took his responsibility
for him very seriously.
366
00:21:41,822 --> 00:21:44,782
Forever after that, Charlie did
367
00:21:44,912 --> 00:21:47,872
just the worst things
you could imagine.
368
00:21:48,002 --> 00:21:51,662
And it was almost as though
he liked getting in trouble.
369
00:21:54,095 --> 00:21:57,785
The second time I sat
down with Joanne to talk,
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00:21:57,925 --> 00:22:01,795
she said that when Charles
was in second grade,
371
00:22:01,929 --> 00:22:04,629
there was a boy in his
class he didn't like.
372
00:22:06,586 --> 00:22:09,546
And one day at
recess, all the girls
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00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:13,026
went over as a gang
and beat up the boy.
374
00:22:13,157 --> 00:22:16,157
And when they were brought
into the principal's office,
375
00:22:16,291 --> 00:22:18,601
they said they did it because
376
00:22:18,728 --> 00:22:21,038
Charles Manson
had asked them to.
377
00:22:21,165 --> 00:22:24,165
[distant children playing]
378
00:22:24,299 --> 00:22:25,559
And Charles said,
379
00:22:27,302 --> 00:22:29,002
"I never touched that boy.
380
00:22:31,524 --> 00:22:34,664
"Those girls were just doing
what they wanted to do.
381
00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:39,006
"They oughta be in
trouble, not me."
382
00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:41,840
[unsettling music]
383
00:22:55,852 --> 00:22:56,682
- [Virginia] The Nazarene Church
384
00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:59,030
believes strongly in prayer.
385
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,030
And there was Sunday
school for the young people
386
00:23:02,163 --> 00:23:06,173
and the pastor taught the
class and Charles came.
387
00:23:06,297 --> 00:23:08,597
- [Preacher] By God and
they get saved by the flame.
388
00:23:09,649 --> 00:23:10,779
Thank you, Jesus--
389
00:23:10,911 --> 00:23:13,651
- Charlie Manson is a sponge.
390
00:23:13,783 --> 00:23:17,313
There is nothing
unique about Manson,
391
00:23:17,439 --> 00:23:20,919
any of his philosophies, any
of the things he preaches.
392
00:23:21,051 --> 00:23:24,051
What he would do is he
would cherry pick lines
393
00:23:24,185 --> 00:23:26,445
that would help him appear
to have a philosophy
394
00:23:26,579 --> 00:23:28,889
and it starts with the Bible
395
00:23:29,016 --> 00:23:31,706
that he learns in the
Church of the Nazarene.
396
00:23:31,845 --> 00:23:34,715
Manson was taken from the
beginning by the teachings
397
00:23:34,848 --> 00:23:37,718
that he heard every
day based on the Bible
398
00:23:37,851 --> 00:23:40,641
that women were
subservient to men,
399
00:23:40,767 --> 00:23:43,067
that the wife is
ruled by the husband.
400
00:23:44,771 --> 00:23:48,251
Yes, Jesus was born of a virgin.
401
00:23:48,383 --> 00:23:52,653
Yes, the devil is here
every day in our lives.
402
00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:57,169
And most of all, you better
believe the Book of Revelation.
403
00:23:59,046 --> 00:24:03,566
He's hearing this every
Sunday, over and over again.
404
00:24:05,095 --> 00:24:08,265
And Charles Manson will
never be well educated,
405
00:24:08,403 --> 00:24:11,193
he's never gonna be
able to read very well,
406
00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:15,929
but there is a gift that Charlie
Manson has from childhood.
407
00:24:17,804 --> 00:24:20,464
He has an incredible memory.
408
00:24:21,851 --> 00:24:24,941
The Bible, song
lyrics, everything.
409
00:24:25,072 --> 00:24:28,772
And as an adult, he
will be able to quote,
410
00:24:28,902 --> 00:24:31,472
particularly from the
Book of Revelation,
411
00:24:32,862 --> 00:24:35,522
and they're word
for word perfect.
412
00:24:37,911 --> 00:24:40,351
- I understand when
he quotes the Bible
413
00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:41,699
where that's coming from.
414
00:24:41,828 --> 00:24:43,738
That's coming from grandma.
415
00:24:43,873 --> 00:24:45,483
I think that's
where he gets that.
416
00:24:45,614 --> 00:24:46,884
And he can do it.
417
00:24:47,007 --> 00:24:49,617
- The Bible, the
Bible, the Bible
418
00:24:51,011 --> 00:24:53,581
is being pounded into
this child's head
419
00:24:53,709 --> 00:24:58,709
and as an adult, he can
cherry pick the best phrases,
420
00:24:58,845 --> 00:25:01,625
remember them, and at
the appropriate time,
421
00:25:01,761 --> 00:25:04,551
present them almost
as his own thoughts.
422
00:25:06,679 --> 00:25:09,729
Young Charlie Manson in McMechen
423
00:25:09,856 --> 00:25:12,726
is remembered mostly
for horrible behavior,
424
00:25:12,859 --> 00:25:14,819
but there was always
this other part
425
00:25:14,948 --> 00:25:18,728
of Charlie that people
would remark on.
426
00:25:18,865 --> 00:25:20,735
His Aunt and Uncle had a beat up
427
00:25:20,867 --> 00:25:23,387
old upright piano in their home
428
00:25:23,522 --> 00:25:26,612
and from the time Charlie
is seven, eight years old,
429
00:25:26,742 --> 00:25:30,792
he sits at the piano and
tries to pick out tunes on it.
430
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,920
[piano playing
Itsy Bitsy Spider]
431
00:25:37,623 --> 00:25:41,933
Much more so than the other
young kids in McMechen,
432
00:25:42,062 --> 00:25:44,022
he was already picking up on
433
00:25:44,151 --> 00:25:47,981
what passed for the
popular music of the day.
434
00:25:48,111 --> 00:25:50,071
- [Interviewer] Where did
Charlie Manson come from?
435
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,250
What are your earliest memories?
436
00:25:52,376 --> 00:25:54,546
- [Manson] I come from
the heart of Bing Crosby,
437
00:25:56,511 --> 00:25:59,301
Frank Sinatra.
- Those were the people that
438
00:25:59,427 --> 00:26:01,857
you listened to as a child?
- Yeah.
439
00:26:01,995 --> 00:26:04,815
- He didn't have a
wonderful singing voice
440
00:26:04,954 --> 00:26:07,614
but he had a reasonably
pleasant one.
441
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:11,740
He would have to be physically
dragged to church on Sundays
442
00:26:11,874 --> 00:26:13,794
but when hymns were
sung, he'd brighten up
443
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,180
and he'd try his best to sing.
444
00:26:16,313 --> 00:26:18,623
[piano playing]
445
00:26:20,622 --> 00:26:22,762
- He wasn't attentive, I can
tell ya he wasn't attentive
446
00:26:22,885 --> 00:26:25,055
in Sunday school,
his mind wandered,
447
00:26:25,192 --> 00:26:29,892
I mean, he just wasn't,
but he still came.
448
00:26:30,023 --> 00:26:33,813
And Glenna and Bill
Thomas were very musical
449
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:37,070
and Mrs. Maddox,
Charles' grandmother,
450
00:26:37,204 --> 00:26:38,814
she also had a
great singing voice.
451
00:26:38,945 --> 00:26:40,895
They were all very musical.
452
00:26:41,034 --> 00:26:43,604
- One of Charlie's
stated ambitions early
453
00:26:43,732 --> 00:26:46,822
was he wanted to be a singer
just like Frankie Lane.
454
00:26:46,953 --> 00:26:49,133
And because he did
have, apparently,
455
00:26:49,259 --> 00:26:51,089
some musical and vocal talent,
456
00:26:51,218 --> 00:26:52,608
people thought, "Hm,
that might happen."
457
00:26:52,741 --> 00:26:54,531
[audience applauding]
458
00:26:54,656 --> 00:26:58,266
[typewriter keys clacking]
459
00:26:58,399 --> 00:27:00,619
[soft music]
460
00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:10,980
The one job nobody at
Moundsville Prison wanted
461
00:27:11,107 --> 00:27:13,277
was to be assigned to
the janitorial staff.
462
00:27:14,937 --> 00:27:16,547
There's vomit, there's blood,
463
00:27:16,678 --> 00:27:17,898
there's urine all
over the floors.
464
00:27:18,027 --> 00:27:20,857
The janitors were constantly
having to clean up.
465
00:27:20,987 --> 00:27:23,857
Kathleen was so determined
she wanted to get outta prison
466
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:25,770
that she did everything
she was asked to do
467
00:27:25,905 --> 00:27:27,775
and did them so
well, she's paroled
468
00:27:27,907 --> 00:27:29,597
three years into her
five year sentence.
469
00:27:29,735 --> 00:27:32,125
[gentle music]
470
00:27:34,043 --> 00:27:37,313
And yet, this isn't
any kind of fairy tale.
471
00:27:37,438 --> 00:27:42,008
When she gets out of prison,
she stays briefly in McMechen.
472
00:27:43,618 --> 00:27:45,878
She's got her little boy
back, but there's still
473
00:27:46,012 --> 00:27:48,362
the influence of her
mother who she thinks is
474
00:27:48,492 --> 00:27:50,972
just gonna grind her down
like she did the first time.
475
00:27:52,975 --> 00:27:56,145
And let's remember: this is
now just a 19 to 20 year old.
476
00:27:56,283 --> 00:28:00,113
She still wants to go
out and enjoy herself.
477
00:28:00,243 --> 00:28:03,073
And so, they move to other
little towns in the area
478
00:28:03,203 --> 00:28:07,423
and Kathleen gets a job as
a clerk in a grocery store.
479
00:28:07,555 --> 00:28:10,205
Doesn't make much
money, but it's a job.
480
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:12,910
She's trying to be a good mom,
481
00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:15,909
she's sending her son to school,
482
00:28:16,042 --> 00:28:19,222
except he won't go to school.
483
00:28:19,349 --> 00:28:21,919
She can take him there,
walk him to class,
484
00:28:22,048 --> 00:28:23,308
but then she has to go work
485
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,660
and the minute she
does, he disappears.
486
00:28:25,791 --> 00:28:28,011
[knocking]
487
00:28:28,141 --> 00:28:30,931
The truant officers are
showing up at her door.
488
00:28:31,057 --> 00:28:33,537
"Your son ran away
from school again."
489
00:28:33,668 --> 00:28:36,798
Sometimes, to her
amazement, he'll show up at
490
00:28:36,932 --> 00:28:40,982
her grocery store while she's
working, during the day,
491
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:44,770
and he will be begging
customers for handouts.
492
00:28:46,072 --> 00:28:49,122
It's a sad, sad situation.
493
00:28:49,249 --> 00:28:50,689
- [Don] School
records in McMechen
494
00:28:50,816 --> 00:28:52,856
show Manson was
an average student
495
00:28:52,992 --> 00:28:55,392
in the second, third,
and fourth grades.
496
00:28:55,516 --> 00:28:57,776
Then he went to live
again with his mother.
497
00:28:57,910 --> 00:28:59,480
In this neighborhood
in Indianapolis,
498
00:28:59,607 --> 00:29:01,037
he had his first
brush with the law
499
00:29:01,174 --> 00:29:03,654
for stealing a bicycle
and then a car.
500
00:29:03,785 --> 00:29:08,485
- Kathleen decides she
has to do something.
501
00:29:10,183 --> 00:29:14,493
And so, she takes a
very difficult step.
502
00:29:14,622 --> 00:29:18,762
Kathleen had read about the
Gibault School for Boys.
503
00:29:18,887 --> 00:29:20,977
This was an open campus,
504
00:29:21,107 --> 00:29:23,197
there weren't prison
walls or anything.
505
00:29:23,326 --> 00:29:25,236
You know, it was
stricter, but it would be
506
00:29:25,372 --> 00:29:28,592
something where Charlie
would have to behave.
507
00:29:30,159 --> 00:29:32,809
This was not his mother turning
him in to the authorities,
508
00:29:32,945 --> 00:29:34,285
as he would always claim it is.
509
00:29:34,424 --> 00:29:39,044
But unfortunately, this
is just the first step
510
00:29:39,168 --> 00:29:41,998
in what's gonna be
a series of places
511
00:29:42,128 --> 00:29:45,088
Charlie Manson is
going to be placed.
512
00:29:45,218 --> 00:29:48,998
He ran away soon after,
came home to mom.
513
00:29:49,135 --> 00:29:50,875
"I trust you, you're my mother.
514
00:29:51,006 --> 00:29:52,786
"How can you do this to me?"
515
00:29:52,921 --> 00:29:55,101
To make her feel guilty.
516
00:29:55,228 --> 00:29:58,538
- That always was utmost
in my mind, you know,
517
00:29:58,666 --> 00:30:00,276
the fact that he did
try to escape there
518
00:30:00,407 --> 00:30:02,187
and his mother would
take him right back.
519
00:30:02,322 --> 00:30:05,152
Which had to be so painful.
520
00:30:05,281 --> 00:30:06,941
In my eyes, that's very painful.
521
00:30:07,066 --> 00:30:09,066
I can't imagine it.
522
00:30:09,198 --> 00:30:12,808
And I always felt that
just a little bitta help,
523
00:30:12,941 --> 00:30:14,031
a little bitta love mighta made
524
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,550
a big difference in his life.
525
00:30:16,684 --> 00:30:17,904
I really do.
526
00:30:18,033 --> 00:30:19,563
It's cruel.
527
00:30:19,687 --> 00:30:22,647
And I think that was the
beginning of the end.
528
00:30:22,777 --> 00:30:26,127
- The things he did,
which soon began to
529
00:30:26,259 --> 00:30:28,829
involve first petty
theft, then he would
530
00:30:28,957 --> 00:30:31,127
break away and go
into armed theft.
531
00:30:31,264 --> 00:30:34,054
He went to a series
of different places,
532
00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:37,530
more and more up the
ladder, so to speak,
533
00:30:37,661 --> 00:30:39,101
into full time detention.
534
00:30:39,228 --> 00:30:42,838
He was once lucky enough
to get sent to Boys Town,
535
00:30:42,971 --> 00:30:45,891
convincing a judge in
Indianapolis when he was 12
536
00:30:46,018 --> 00:30:47,148
that, "Hey, I'm a Catholic."
537
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,110
Even though he wasn't.
538
00:30:49,238 --> 00:30:51,328
And he's sent to
Boys Town, one of
539
00:30:51,458 --> 00:30:54,458
the most famous places
in all of America.
540
00:30:54,591 --> 00:30:57,161
There's movies that are
being made about this.
541
00:30:58,944 --> 00:31:02,034
He lasts four days and he
and some of the other boys
542
00:31:02,164 --> 00:31:04,654
steal a car belonging to
a priest and head out.
543
00:31:06,255 --> 00:31:08,205
As with Kathleen,
he's very inept
544
00:31:08,344 --> 00:31:09,874
at trying to elude the law.
545
00:31:09,998 --> 00:31:11,298
He's caught, he goes back.
546
00:31:11,434 --> 00:31:14,964
But nothing was
ever Charlie's fault
547
00:31:15,090 --> 00:31:17,010
as far as Manson was concerned.
548
00:31:17,136 --> 00:31:19,876
[intense music]
549
00:31:22,141 --> 00:31:25,191
[car passing]
550
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:27,840
- [Reporter] He was sent
to the Indiana Boys School,
551
00:31:27,973 --> 00:31:29,763
the state reform school.
552
00:31:29,888 --> 00:31:31,148
He wouldn't conform to the rules
553
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,330
and was moved from one
dormitory to another.
554
00:31:33,456 --> 00:31:37,236
Manson compiled 28 bad
conduct reports in two years.
555
00:31:37,373 --> 00:31:41,733
- He was a, as I described
him perhaps 20 years ago,
556
00:31:41,856 --> 00:31:44,636
a chronic discipline
problem even at that time.
557
00:31:44,772 --> 00:31:47,382
- How was he regarded
by the other boys?
558
00:31:47,514 --> 00:31:50,524
- The other students
seemed to regard him
559
00:31:50,647 --> 00:31:54,387
as a boy they liked
to mingle with.
560
00:31:54,521 --> 00:31:58,181
Manson seemed to have a
lot of stories to tell
561
00:31:58,307 --> 00:32:00,737
that was of interest
to the other boys.
562
00:32:00,875 --> 00:32:02,215
- [Reporter] The file on
Manson at the reform school
563
00:32:02,355 --> 00:32:04,875
shows he escaped five times.
564
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:07,100
There are letters there from
his aunt and grandmother
565
00:32:07,229 --> 00:32:08,749
in which they write
of their love for him
566
00:32:08,883 --> 00:32:11,233
and their hopes that
he would do better.
567
00:32:11,364 --> 00:32:13,714
- [Reporter] The consensus
was he was self-centered,
568
00:32:13,844 --> 00:32:17,074
generally lazy, cooperated
only under pressure,
569
00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:19,146
and had little influence
on other people
570
00:32:19,285 --> 00:32:21,365
for either good or bad.
571
00:32:21,504 --> 00:32:22,944
- [Interviewer] You
have said before
572
00:32:24,420 --> 00:32:27,290
that you needed love
and you needed family
573
00:32:27,423 --> 00:32:30,343
and you needed friends
and that's the one thing
574
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:32,990
that every man needs.
- No.
575
00:32:33,125 --> 00:32:35,995
You misunderstood, I never
said anything like that.
576
00:32:36,128 --> 00:32:37,218
- [Interviewer] Do
you wanna look back
577
00:32:37,346 --> 00:32:40,386
at that early period
of your life and say,
578
00:32:40,523 --> 00:32:43,923
"Boy, something went wrong
when I went to foster homes
579
00:32:44,049 --> 00:32:44,959
"and then my mother
would take me,
580
00:32:45,093 --> 00:32:46,183
"then I'd go see my grandmother,
581
00:32:46,312 --> 00:32:47,662
"then I'd go back
and see my mother"?
582
00:32:49,445 --> 00:32:50,615
Did that shape you, did
it make a difference?
583
00:32:50,751 --> 00:32:54,361
[unsettling music]
584
00:32:54,494 --> 00:32:56,894
- [Manson] Well see, that
doesn't even compute in my world
585
00:32:57,018 --> 00:32:58,798
because there is no wrong.
586
00:32:58,933 --> 00:33:00,853
- [Interviewer] Do
you need to be loved?
587
00:33:00,979 --> 00:33:02,239
- I am loved.
- By whom?
588
00:33:02,371 --> 00:33:04,771
- I am love.
- You're, are you loved?
589
00:33:04,895 --> 00:33:06,065
- I am love!
590
00:33:07,028 --> 00:33:09,198
- In the tougher reform schools,
591
00:33:10,684 --> 00:33:13,644
it is absolutely true
that Charlie Manson,
592
00:33:13,774 --> 00:33:18,214
one of the smaller, weaker
boys is certainly picked on,
593
00:33:18,344 --> 00:33:21,174
he certainly suffers
physical indignities
594
00:33:21,303 --> 00:33:25,483
and we can be fairly
well assured he is
sexually assaulted.
595
00:33:27,831 --> 00:33:30,831
Manson recognizes early on
596
00:33:30,965 --> 00:33:33,445
that it's just human
nature to back away
597
00:33:33,576 --> 00:33:36,486
from someone who's
an absolute lunatic.
598
00:33:36,623 --> 00:33:41,283
He studies, he thinks,
and he perfects the act.
599
00:33:41,410 --> 00:33:45,680
If someone bigger, scarier
is approaching him,
600
00:33:45,806 --> 00:33:50,586
he will act so insane, so
violently out of control that
601
00:33:52,247 --> 00:33:54,767
even the worst bullies will
back off and leave him alone.
602
00:33:54,902 --> 00:33:58,822
He calls it being Crazy
Charlie and he will
603
00:33:58,949 --> 00:34:02,559
use this again throughout
his adult life.
604
00:34:02,692 --> 00:34:05,702
- [Manson] We all do what we
have to do to survive, right?
605
00:34:05,826 --> 00:34:07,736
It's like a long time
ago, back in the '50s
606
00:34:07,871 --> 00:34:10,661
when I was in reform school,
I would get in a fight
607
00:34:10,787 --> 00:34:12,307
or I'd get in a
argument and I'd be down
608
00:34:12,441 --> 00:34:13,831
in solitary confinement
and I'd just go
609
00:34:13,964 --> 00:34:16,624
[nonsensical singing]
610
00:34:21,407 --> 00:34:24,057
and I turned everything
off a long time ago.
611
00:34:24,192 --> 00:34:26,852
- And yet, from
these experiences,
612
00:34:28,936 --> 00:34:32,766
Charles doesn't abhor the
terrible things done to him.
613
00:34:32,896 --> 00:34:36,066
Rather, he wants to
do them to other boys.
614
00:34:38,467 --> 00:34:40,727
In one instance,
he's found sodomizing
615
00:34:40,861 --> 00:34:43,691
another younger boy
while holding a piece of
616
00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:46,260
broken glass to his throat,
threatening to kill him.
617
00:34:49,870 --> 00:34:52,530
When he would be asked
about having been raped
618
00:34:52,655 --> 00:34:56,785
as a child in
school, Charlie said,
619
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,790
"So what?
620
00:35:00,881 --> 00:35:03,711
"It's just like if it
happens, you wipe it off."
621
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,450
[soft music]
622
00:35:06,582 --> 00:35:09,762
[prison door slamming]
623
00:35:13,502 --> 00:35:17,252
Manson finally ended up
in a maximum security
624
00:35:17,376 --> 00:35:19,116
detention facility
in Chillicothe.
625
00:35:21,467 --> 00:35:25,427
This was the place
that kids were sent
626
00:35:25,558 --> 00:35:28,868
when they were so bad
there was no other place
627
00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:32,216
for them to go until
they turned 21.
628
00:35:32,347 --> 00:35:33,997
[door opening]
629
00:35:34,132 --> 00:35:37,612
There were kids in there who
had committed murder already.
630
00:35:40,355 --> 00:35:44,925
What he did is
completely unparalleled
631
00:35:45,055 --> 00:35:46,445
in the rest of his life.
632
00:35:48,537 --> 00:35:53,327
This time, for months,
he is the model inmate.
633
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:56,240
Follows every rule,
tries hard in school.
634
00:35:57,938 --> 00:36:01,458
And there's the innate belief
that every once in awhile,
635
00:36:01,594 --> 00:36:05,994
there has to be some kid
that we've really helped.
636
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,730
Maybe this is a success story.
637
00:36:07,861 --> 00:36:12,391
And at this facility,
there was the honor award
638
00:36:12,518 --> 00:36:14,818
that you have
completely overcome
639
00:36:14,955 --> 00:36:18,215
all the terrible things
that brought you here.
640
00:36:18,350 --> 00:36:19,530
And it wasn't given out often,
641
00:36:21,091 --> 00:36:24,491
but it was given out to
Charles Milles Manson.
642
00:36:25,487 --> 00:36:27,657
Charlie had conned the people
643
00:36:27,794 --> 00:36:30,284
who were certain no kid
could ever fool them.
644
00:36:31,754 --> 00:36:35,634
And so, miraculously,
there it is,
645
00:36:35,758 --> 00:36:38,808
Charlie Manson has
completely turned a new leaf
646
00:36:38,935 --> 00:36:40,805
and he's gonna be
a model citizen.
647
00:36:40,937 --> 00:36:42,637
- [Reporter] When
he was released,
648
00:36:42,765 --> 00:36:44,585
he went back to McMechen,
worked at a few odd jobs,
649
00:36:44,724 --> 00:36:46,684
and a few months later,
he was married here
650
00:36:46,813 --> 00:36:50,163
and they moved into a
house across the street.
651
00:36:50,295 --> 00:36:52,555
[soft music]
652
00:36:54,777 --> 00:36:56,947
- Well, a lot of
people didn't know
653
00:36:57,084 --> 00:36:58,694
Charlie Manson even
lived around here.
654
00:37:00,218 --> 00:37:03,568
You know, they, he was
virtually friendless.
655
00:37:05,092 --> 00:37:09,142
He was sorta the,
the type of person,
656
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:10,490
was like a school kid who wore
657
00:37:10,619 --> 00:37:12,669
a raincoat to school
on a sunny day.
658
00:37:12,795 --> 00:37:17,015
I mean, he just, no one
jumped to be around him.
659
00:37:17,147 --> 00:37:18,237
He was very low key.
660
00:37:19,237 --> 00:37:21,497
- He wasn't outgoing, no,
661
00:37:21,630 --> 00:37:24,940
and no one seemed
to make an effort to
662
00:37:25,068 --> 00:37:29,548
seek Charles out or
introduce themselves.
663
00:37:29,682 --> 00:37:32,642
He was a, a kind of a cocky,
664
00:37:32,772 --> 00:37:35,082
let's start a fight type of guy
665
00:37:35,209 --> 00:37:39,819
and a blowhard and
that kind of a person.
666
00:37:39,953 --> 00:37:42,393
I didn't know that side of him.
667
00:37:42,521 --> 00:37:44,651
We enjoyed his company,
my cousin Barbara
668
00:37:44,784 --> 00:37:46,574
and I both enjoyed
his company and
669
00:37:48,744 --> 00:37:49,404
Charles
670
00:37:50,746 --> 00:37:52,396
might have been a little shy.
671
00:37:53,967 --> 00:37:57,097
And very attractive,
had a dimple,
672
00:37:57,231 --> 00:38:00,281
had curly black hair, and
he had beautiful eyes.
673
00:38:01,235 --> 00:38:03,585
[slow jazzy music]
674
00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:05,846
- 50 years later,
people will tell you,
675
00:38:05,979 --> 00:38:08,939
"Well you just
know in every town
676
00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:12,729
"there's a good girl who
can't resist a bad boy."
677
00:38:12,855 --> 00:38:14,245
- [Interviewer] What
about your wife?
678
00:38:14,379 --> 00:38:14,989
You were married
once, weren't you?
679
00:38:15,118 --> 00:38:16,688
- Yes.
- How'd that go?
680
00:38:16,816 --> 00:38:18,116
Why'd you wanna get married?
681
00:38:18,252 --> 00:38:19,692
That's kinda convention,
that's kinda normal,
682
00:38:19,819 --> 00:38:21,599
that's kind of in the--
683
00:38:21,734 --> 00:38:22,604
- [Manson] Got married
'cause I wanted to
684
00:38:22,735 --> 00:38:23,515
get in that pussy,
that's why I got--
685
00:38:23,649 --> 00:38:24,689
- Oh yeah?
- Married.
686
00:38:24,824 --> 00:38:25,694
- [Interviewer] Married for sex
687
00:38:25,825 --> 00:38:26,515
was the reason you got married.
688
00:38:26,652 --> 00:38:27,612
- [Manson] Yeah, that's what,
689
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:28,920
I didn't know what
was happenin'.
690
00:38:29,045 --> 00:38:30,525
I knew there was
somethin' happening
691
00:38:30,656 --> 00:38:31,786
but no one would tell
me, so I had to find out.
692
00:38:31,918 --> 00:38:32,748
You know, I didn't have
books like you guys,
693
00:38:32,875 --> 00:38:33,785
Playboys and stuff,
in them days.
694
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,440
Had to find out for myself.
695
00:38:35,574 --> 00:38:38,364
- [Jeff] Charlie's grandmother
throws a lovely party
696
00:38:38,490 --> 00:38:40,880
for them, a reception, after
the wedding in her house.
697
00:38:41,014 --> 00:38:42,454
We have pictures.
698
00:38:42,581 --> 00:38:45,371
- Rosalie worked at
Warsinsky's Grocery.
699
00:38:45,497 --> 00:38:47,627
I thought she was rather quiet
700
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,420
and kinda reserved,
not outgoing so much.
701
00:38:52,547 --> 00:38:55,327
I kept it to myself,
but I thought
702
00:38:55,463 --> 00:38:56,733
she was very attractive and
703
00:38:56,856 --> 00:38:59,766
I wouldn't mind having
her for a girlfriend.
704
00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:04,392
She was very pleasant,
cordial, a very nice person.
705
00:39:04,516 --> 00:39:09,086
I had seen her across the
street standin' with Charlie
706
00:39:09,216 --> 00:39:12,736
and that kinda bursted
my bubble a little bit
707
00:39:12,872 --> 00:39:15,882
because I thought he
was relatively quiet
708
00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:19,835
and if you asked him a
question, you didn't expect
709
00:39:19,966 --> 00:39:22,576
to get much more than
a yes or no answer.
710
00:39:22,708 --> 00:39:27,408
But he just seemed to come in
and sweep Rosalie off her feet
711
00:39:29,062 --> 00:39:32,462
and that's the last I heard
of Rosalie at the store.
712
00:39:32,587 --> 00:39:34,847
- The reception was
at Glenna's home
713
00:39:34,981 --> 00:39:37,811
and my mother, dad, and I
went there for the reception.
714
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:41,200
It was small but
it was a nice time.
715
00:39:41,335 --> 00:39:43,115
But the one thing that
I noticed that night:
716
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:46,560
I have never seen him
that happy in my life.
717
00:39:47,994 --> 00:39:50,524
- [Jeff] For married
couples, the way you
718
00:39:50,649 --> 00:39:52,479
passed the time of
day in the evening
719
00:39:52,607 --> 00:39:54,437
was to sit out on
the front stoop
720
00:39:54,566 --> 00:39:56,216
and as your neighbors walked by,
721
00:39:56,350 --> 00:39:59,050
you'd chat and you'd
pass the time of day.
722
00:39:59,179 --> 00:40:01,569
And suddenly, there's Charlie
Manson trying to do this.
723
00:40:04,402 --> 00:40:05,712
- I first met Charlie Manson,
724
00:40:05,838 --> 00:40:08,408
my first experience,
personal experience, was
725
00:40:09,798 --> 00:40:11,888
I was on my way to
baseball practice
726
00:40:12,018 --> 00:40:14,978
and the coach's wife
asked Charlie to drive us
727
00:40:15,108 --> 00:40:17,718
down to the ball field,
so we climbed into
728
00:40:17,850 --> 00:40:20,770
the back seat of his
Freddie Flintstone car.
729
00:40:20,896 --> 00:40:22,986
He took us to the game,
didn't say a word,
730
00:40:23,116 --> 00:40:25,416
and when we got
out, we thanked him
731
00:40:25,553 --> 00:40:29,343
and he just looked straight
ahead and continued on.
732
00:40:29,470 --> 00:40:31,470
He said nothing, just drove off.
733
00:40:31,603 --> 00:40:32,563
That was Charlie.
734
00:40:34,736 --> 00:40:39,516
- And it only lasts a few
months, then Rosalie's pregnant.
735
00:40:40,568 --> 00:40:41,698
And there's medical bills.
736
00:40:41,830 --> 00:40:44,310
And Charlie gets a
second job helpin' out
737
00:40:44,442 --> 00:40:47,712
at a local store but there's
still not enough money.
738
00:40:47,836 --> 00:40:50,666
And Charlie starts
stealin' cars.
739
00:40:52,754 --> 00:40:57,464
And he subsidizes for a few
months, but it's not workin'.
740
00:40:58,847 --> 00:41:00,847
Kathleen, with
her husband Lewis,
741
00:41:00,980 --> 00:41:02,680
has moved out to California.
742
00:41:04,070 --> 00:41:06,770
And so, Charlie
suggests to Rosalie
743
00:41:06,899 --> 00:41:09,679
they go out there,
it'll be better there.
744
00:41:11,991 --> 00:41:15,601
And so, he leaves McMechen
with a pregnant child bride
745
00:41:15,734 --> 00:41:18,874
in a car he stole
to go to California
746
00:41:18,998 --> 00:41:22,088
where he is sure he will
somehow become a huge success.
747
00:41:22,218 --> 00:41:23,698
[wolf howling]
748
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:24,869
- [Manson] See, my
old lady, she said,
749
00:41:25,004 --> 00:41:26,794
"Let's steal a car
and go to California."
750
00:41:28,094 --> 00:41:29,844
And I said, "Man, I
ain't gonna steal no car
751
00:41:29,965 --> 00:41:31,525
"and go to California
and go back to jail."
752
00:41:31,663 --> 00:41:33,453
She says, "We won't get caught."
753
00:41:33,578 --> 00:41:35,618
[siren wailing]
754
00:41:35,754 --> 00:41:37,634
We didn't get caught,
just I got caught.
755
00:41:39,888 --> 00:41:41,978
- [Interviewer] You had a son
by that marriage, didn't you?
756
00:41:42,108 --> 00:41:44,628
[retro music]
757
00:41:44,763 --> 00:41:46,633
- [Manson] Yeah, I
got a kid somewhere.
758
00:41:46,765 --> 00:41:47,585
- [Interviewer] You
think about him?
759
00:41:47,722 --> 00:41:49,642
[retro music]
760
00:41:49,768 --> 00:41:51,468
- [Manson] About as much
as my father did me.
761
00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:54,816
[retro music]
762
00:41:54,947 --> 00:41:56,337
- [Reporter] Manson's
wife had a baby
763
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:57,860
but before it was
born, he was in trouble
764
00:41:57,993 --> 00:41:59,733
with the law again, arrested for
765
00:41:59,865 --> 00:42:02,165
driving a stolen
car to California.
766
00:42:02,302 --> 00:42:05,002
- As was his mother,
he is one of the most
767
00:42:05,131 --> 00:42:08,871
incompetent criminals
that ever stole stuff
768
00:42:09,004 --> 00:42:11,184
in the history of the
United States of America.
769
00:42:12,791 --> 00:42:15,011
He steals a car to
get to Los Angeles
770
00:42:15,141 --> 00:42:16,801
but instead of ditching
the car, he starts
771
00:42:16,925 --> 00:42:21,185
driving around LA,
seeing the sights.
772
00:42:21,321 --> 00:42:24,451
These are in the days
when cops will mark down
773
00:42:24,585 --> 00:42:27,845
out of state license plates
and just run casual checks.
774
00:42:27,980 --> 00:42:29,370
- [Narrator] These
observations can give
775
00:42:29,503 --> 00:42:32,383
a definite indication that
the vehicle may be stolen,
776
00:42:32,506 --> 00:42:34,726
even before a thorough
inspection is made
777
00:42:34,856 --> 00:42:35,726
or the subject's questioned.
778
00:42:37,555 --> 00:42:40,205
- And, of course, the
car comes back as stolen.
779
00:42:40,340 --> 00:42:44,040
That starts Charlie's
downfall, legally.
780
00:42:44,170 --> 00:42:48,000
He would do these extra things
that he didn't have to do
781
00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:50,700
and I have talked
to psychologists
782
00:42:50,829 --> 00:42:53,139
who study criminal behavior
and they will say to me,
783
00:42:53,266 --> 00:42:56,526
"This is proof that, deep down,
784
00:42:56,661 --> 00:43:00,231
"he always wanted to be in
prison, he felt safe there,
785
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,890
"he's subconsciously
doing these dumb things
786
00:43:05,539 --> 00:43:07,979
"just so he will get back to
where he really feels secure."
787
00:43:08,107 --> 00:43:10,757
♪ Ho ho ho ho get on home
788
00:43:10,892 --> 00:43:11,682
[prison door slamming]
789
00:43:11,806 --> 00:43:14,766
♪ Oh ho ho ho ho get on home
790
00:43:14,896 --> 00:43:16,546
[ball smacking paddles]
791
00:43:16,681 --> 00:43:17,731
- I got it.
792
00:43:19,161 --> 00:43:19,811
- [Interviewer] Tell
me, for instance,
793
00:43:19,945 --> 00:43:21,985
what did you guys do for sex?
794
00:43:22,121 --> 00:43:25,691
- Well, there is
young boys around
795
00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:28,910
and you can always
give 'em a few
796
00:43:29,041 --> 00:43:30,781
packs of cigarettes
to do what you want.
797
00:43:32,827 --> 00:43:34,607
- [Interviewer] How do you do
that after you're locked down?
798
00:43:34,742 --> 00:43:36,142
- Well, you can shower time or
799
00:43:38,616 --> 00:43:39,966
when they have a yard
night or something,
800
00:43:40,095 --> 00:43:42,835
there's places around here
you can go to, of course.
801
00:43:42,968 --> 00:43:44,618
They call 'em spots, yeah.
802
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:46,670
Things like that.
803
00:43:46,798 --> 00:43:48,098
It's no problem, old man.
804
00:43:48,930 --> 00:43:51,540
[ominous music]
805
00:43:51,672 --> 00:43:56,242
- Charlie Manson's life and the
terrible crimes he committed
806
00:43:56,372 --> 00:43:58,772
all happened because
he's the wrong man
807
00:43:58,897 --> 00:44:00,767
in the right place
at the right time.
808
00:44:00,899 --> 00:44:03,899
And nowhere is this
more true than when
809
00:44:04,032 --> 00:44:06,692
he is first sent to
prison at Terminal Island.
810
00:44:10,517 --> 00:44:13,957
The last few years
before Charles Manson
811
00:44:14,086 --> 00:44:18,086
enters the adult criminal
system for the first time,
812
00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:22,050
the philosophy of the American
criminal system changes.
813
00:44:22,181 --> 00:44:26,051
[typewriter keys clacking]
814
00:44:26,185 --> 00:44:27,965
- What are prisons for?
815
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:29,970
When you think about it,
there are just a limited
816
00:44:30,102 --> 00:44:32,102
number of things a penal
system can be asked to do.
817
00:44:32,234 --> 00:44:33,934
In the first place,
it can be asked
818
00:44:34,062 --> 00:44:36,282
to punish those who
break the rules.
819
00:44:36,412 --> 00:44:38,242
But most civilized
societies have not
820
00:44:38,371 --> 00:44:40,291
been content with
the punishment.
821
00:44:40,416 --> 00:44:42,286
They want the punishment
to have a purpose.
822
00:44:42,418 --> 00:44:44,158
[film reel clicking]
823
00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:46,680
[jazzy music]
824
00:44:49,643 --> 00:44:51,993
- [Narrator] You're in prison.
825
00:44:52,124 --> 00:44:53,264
And maybe one of the
reasons you are here
826
00:44:53,386 --> 00:44:55,036
is that there was
no place for you
827
00:44:55,170 --> 00:44:57,350
in a society demanding
skills and education.
828
00:44:58,826 --> 00:45:00,086
[prison door slamming]
829
00:45:00,219 --> 00:45:01,829
California spends more
than any other state
830
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,350
on educating and
training prisoners.
831
00:45:04,484 --> 00:45:05,884
If you don't have a
high school education,
832
00:45:06,007 --> 00:45:09,007
you're encouraged to get one
and you can learn a trade.
833
00:45:09,141 --> 00:45:11,971
- Now we have a
whole new philosophy.
834
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:14,020
We've gotta work
with these people
835
00:45:14,146 --> 00:45:16,096
so that they won't
have to turn to crime,
836
00:45:16,235 --> 00:45:18,145
so they'll have skills that will
837
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,890
let them function in
the regular world.
838
00:45:21,022 --> 00:45:23,632
- You in California
here are so fortunate
839
00:45:23,764 --> 00:45:26,034
that you don't
quite realize that
840
00:45:26,158 --> 00:45:29,728
40-odd other states
are far behind you
841
00:45:31,337 --> 00:45:34,167
and that the jails and prisons
in most of these states
842
00:45:34,296 --> 00:45:37,816
are filthy and
dehumanizing machinery,
843
00:45:39,084 --> 00:45:41,224
that they ruin the
people that go into them
844
00:45:41,347 --> 00:45:44,257
and that they harm
all the people outside
845
00:45:44,393 --> 00:45:47,573
who think that the machine is
doing something constructive
846
00:45:47,701 --> 00:45:50,271
to the individual who
is ground up in it.
847
00:45:50,399 --> 00:45:52,919
- So, Charlie goes to prison
where, a couple years before,
848
00:45:53,054 --> 00:45:56,884
it woulda been like his mother's
experience in Moundsville
849
00:45:57,015 --> 00:45:58,405
where the foot's in
the back of your neck
850
00:45:58,538 --> 00:46:00,448
and you will do what
you're told or else.
851
00:46:00,583 --> 00:46:04,543
Now we're going to help
you grow as a person.
852
00:46:04,674 --> 00:46:08,204
And one of the ways
American prisons did this:
853
00:46:08,330 --> 00:46:10,940
Dale Carnegie's How to Win
Friends and Influence People
854
00:46:11,072 --> 00:46:14,602
is sweeping the nation.
- Hello, everybody.
855
00:46:14,728 --> 00:46:16,208
You know the happiness
you get out of life
856
00:46:16,338 --> 00:46:18,988
and, to a large extent,
the size of your income
857
00:46:19,124 --> 00:46:21,214
will depend very largely
upon your ability
858
00:46:21,343 --> 00:46:24,093
to win friends and
influence people.
859
00:46:24,216 --> 00:46:28,656
- Dale Carnegie is a
salesman who was brilliant
860
00:46:28,786 --> 00:46:32,306
at putting together the kinda
tips he learned on the road
861
00:46:32,441 --> 00:46:35,751
that would help you if you
wanted to sell people something,
862
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,320
if you wanted
people to like you,
863
00:46:37,446 --> 00:46:40,096
little tricks you could play.
864
00:46:41,668 --> 00:46:44,278
And there's courses
you would sign up for
865
00:46:44,410 --> 00:46:47,980
and all the prisoners at
Terminal Island in California,
866
00:46:48,109 --> 00:46:50,239
boy, they wanna get in on this.
867
00:46:50,372 --> 00:46:51,682
[applauding]
868
00:46:51,809 --> 00:46:53,069
- [Carnegie] Be sincere.
869
00:46:53,201 --> 00:46:54,771
You will just be
wasting your time
870
00:46:54,899 --> 00:46:57,029
if you pretend to be
interested in other people
871
00:46:57,162 --> 00:46:58,642
in order to get
something out of them.
872
00:46:58,772 --> 00:46:59,992
- [Manson] Sincerity is the
best gimmick, remember that.
873
00:47:00,121 --> 00:47:01,341
"Sincerity and
honesty," he said,
874
00:47:01,470 --> 00:47:02,990
"It'll trick 'em every time."
875
00:47:03,124 --> 00:47:04,824
[laughs] I said, "Well,
sincere and honesty,
876
00:47:04,952 --> 00:47:06,352
"I never tried that."
877
00:47:06,475 --> 00:47:07,995
- [Carnegie] A good smile has
878
00:47:08,129 --> 00:47:09,999
the same effect
as a puppy's tail.
879
00:47:10,131 --> 00:47:12,831
When a puppy wags his tail, he
says, "I'm glad to see you."
880
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,180
And a smile says the same thing.
881
00:47:17,225 --> 00:47:20,045
- [Jeff] Charlie eats up
the Dale Carnegie course.
882
00:47:20,185 --> 00:47:22,835
- Charlie was takin' the course,
883
00:47:22,970 --> 00:47:25,930
Dale Carnegie's How to Win
Friends and Influence People.
884
00:47:26,060 --> 00:47:27,670
Very strange.
885
00:47:27,801 --> 00:47:30,241
- And within four small
months after signing up
886
00:47:30,369 --> 00:47:33,199
for the Dale Carnegie course,
I received a promotion
887
00:47:33,328 --> 00:47:36,158
and 12 months after
that, I was promoted to
888
00:47:36,288 --> 00:47:38,988
zone sales manager of the
Burroughs Corporation.
889
00:47:39,117 --> 00:47:41,117
- [Kaufman] So, I mean,
that's probably where he got
890
00:47:41,249 --> 00:47:43,899
a lot of his ideas that
he transformed 'em into
891
00:47:44,035 --> 00:47:48,595
his own way of applying what
he had learned in that course.
892
00:47:50,476 --> 00:47:53,126
- Now, this is the guy who
supposedly can hardly read.
893
00:47:53,261 --> 00:47:55,791
But his retention,
when he wants to
894
00:47:55,916 --> 00:47:57,656
remember something, is perfect.
895
00:47:57,787 --> 00:47:59,957
Charlie, in particular,
has a couple
896
00:48:00,094 --> 00:48:02,364
special things that
resonate with him.
897
00:48:04,055 --> 00:48:07,745
But he doesn't complete the
course because he felt like
898
00:48:07,885 --> 00:48:10,885
he had learned what there
was for him to learn.
899
00:48:11,018 --> 00:48:12,848
The first is: the
best way to avoid
900
00:48:12,977 --> 00:48:15,717
an argument is not
to get into one.
901
00:48:15,849 --> 00:48:18,549
- I was walkin' in
the yard and there was
902
00:48:18,678 --> 00:48:22,158
this guy playin' a guitar
and a cop came by and said,
903
00:48:22,290 --> 00:48:24,120
"Manson, you can't
play your guitar here.
904
00:48:24,249 --> 00:48:26,119
"You gotta play your
guitar over there."
905
00:48:26,251 --> 00:48:27,951
And Charlie just kept
playin' his guitar
906
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:29,209
and the cop just
stopped and said,
907
00:48:29,341 --> 00:48:32,001
"Manson, you ain't never
gonna get outta here."
908
00:48:32,126 --> 00:48:33,296
Charlie never missed a beat.
909
00:48:33,432 --> 00:48:35,042
He said, "Outta where, man?"
910
00:48:35,173 --> 00:48:36,783
And just kept goin'.
911
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:40,484
And that was it, that was my
first day with Charles Manson.
912
00:48:40,613 --> 00:48:43,053
- [Jeff] That's the first
thing, don't give 'em anything
913
00:48:43,181 --> 00:48:46,921
to tear into, and
most importantly,
914
00:48:47,054 --> 00:48:51,674
always let the other fellow
think that the idea is his.
915
00:48:51,798 --> 00:48:54,108
- Charlie directed
mental traffic.
916
00:48:54,235 --> 00:48:57,365
He wanted to do something
and he'd jump ahead to one of
917
00:48:57,499 --> 00:49:00,979
the girls and one of the girls'd
say, "I got a good idea."
918
00:49:01,112 --> 00:49:03,112
Charlie had planted a seed.
919
00:49:03,244 --> 00:49:05,864
And off they went,
doing his way.
920
00:49:05,986 --> 00:49:10,076
- Manson's incredible powers
921
00:49:10,208 --> 00:49:12,208
that you hear people
talk about all the time,
922
00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:15,170
the charisma, the
ability not only
923
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:18,780
to read minds but
make people trust him,
924
00:49:18,912 --> 00:49:20,442
straight outta Dale Carnegie's
925
00:49:20,566 --> 00:49:22,916
How to Win Friends
and Influence People.
926
00:49:23,047 --> 00:49:25,087
Word for word.
927
00:49:25,223 --> 00:49:29,493
[typewriter keys clacking]
928
00:49:29,618 --> 00:49:33,538
Manson, when he gets
outta Terminal Island,
929
00:49:33,666 --> 00:49:37,276
has a new career goal: he's
gonna be a world class pimp.
930
00:49:38,976 --> 00:49:42,016
He liked listening to the
pimps at Terminal Island,
931
00:49:42,153 --> 00:49:44,683
they gave him advice on how
to find the right girls.
932
00:49:46,461 --> 00:49:48,811
The rules are simple: you
wanna find young women
933
00:49:48,942 --> 00:49:50,992
who are bent but not broken,
934
00:49:51,118 --> 00:49:53,688
emotionally distraught but
not completely unhinged.
935
00:49:55,122 --> 00:49:57,122
The second thing you have to do
936
00:49:57,255 --> 00:50:00,645
is you have to make
them depend on you.
937
00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:05,050
You control every
aspect of their lives.
938
00:50:05,176 --> 00:50:09,086
The third thing is you keep
them from outside influences.
939
00:50:09,223 --> 00:50:10,923
Don't let them talk to family,
940
00:50:11,051 --> 00:50:12,491
don't let them talk to friends.
941
00:50:12,618 --> 00:50:15,838
You must be the only person
they have to turn to.
942
00:50:15,969 --> 00:50:18,319
[ominous music]
943
00:50:19,973 --> 00:50:22,633
Charlie did not realize
that the biggest challenge
944
00:50:22,758 --> 00:50:26,368
is not to recruit girls
who will work for you
945
00:50:26,501 --> 00:50:30,241
but to recruit women who
would stay working for you.
946
00:50:30,375 --> 00:50:32,325
And he never had a
string of women who could
947
00:50:32,464 --> 00:50:35,554
earn enough money to support
him the way he wanted.
948
00:50:35,684 --> 00:50:38,214
He had to try to subsidize
himself in other ways
949
00:50:38,339 --> 00:50:39,989
that just got him into
further legal trouble.
950
00:50:40,124 --> 00:50:41,864
He was a terrible pimp.
951
00:50:41,995 --> 00:50:44,605
And soon ends up in
jail again, this time at
952
00:50:44,737 --> 00:50:49,387
McNeil Island up near
Seattle in Washington.
953
00:50:50,134 --> 00:50:51,354
[clicking]
954
00:50:51,483 --> 00:50:54,533
In McNeil Island,
Manson is once again
955
00:50:55,791 --> 00:50:57,661
together with the
worst of the worst.
956
00:50:57,793 --> 00:50:59,843
[unsettling music]
957
00:50:59,969 --> 00:51:02,669
The trait that continues
to distinguish him
958
00:51:02,798 --> 00:51:05,108
from other prisoners
is the fact that
959
00:51:05,236 --> 00:51:07,796
he is so honestly
interested in music.
960
00:51:07,934 --> 00:51:12,724
In one of the great ironies
in American Criminal History,
961
00:51:12,852 --> 00:51:17,472
Alvin Creepy Karpis, one
of the real serious killers
962
00:51:17,596 --> 00:51:20,206
from the Bonny and
Clyde, Dillinger days,
963
00:51:20,338 --> 00:51:22,778
is also incarcerated
in McNeil Island
964
00:51:22,905 --> 00:51:24,685
and he plays steel guitar.
965
00:51:24,820 --> 00:51:27,520
And Charlie sucks
up to Creepy Karpis
966
00:51:27,649 --> 00:51:30,909
and gets guitar
lessons from him.
967
00:51:31,044 --> 00:51:34,834
Karpis, later, when Manson
becomes so infamous,
968
00:51:34,961 --> 00:51:37,011
tells an interviewer, "Boy,
969
00:51:37,137 --> 00:51:38,967
"I didn't know he
had that in him."
970
00:51:39,096 --> 00:51:42,226
[typewriter keys clacking]
971
00:51:46,059 --> 00:51:47,709
In McNeil, a couple
other critical things
972
00:51:47,843 --> 00:51:50,413
happen in Manson's
development as
973
00:51:50,542 --> 00:51:53,762
what we have to call
a genius con artist.
974
00:51:53,893 --> 00:51:56,943
There are, obviously,
in all these prisons
975
00:51:57,070 --> 00:52:00,200
all sorts of religious
outlets made available
976
00:52:00,334 --> 00:52:02,254
to the prisoners with the belief
977
00:52:02,380 --> 00:52:06,430
that God can change
you if man can't.
978
00:52:06,558 --> 00:52:08,688
On one of his reports
from McNeil Island,
979
00:52:08,821 --> 00:52:10,781
it says that for the first time,
980
00:52:10,910 --> 00:52:14,440
Manson appears to be
showing some self awareness
981
00:52:14,566 --> 00:52:17,826
and he credits it to his
study of Scientology.
982
00:52:19,962 --> 00:52:24,622
Scientology has managed
to sort of pick up a niche
983
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:27,750
and the prison officials,
they may not know
984
00:52:27,883 --> 00:52:29,803
all the details of
Scientology but hey,
985
00:52:29,929 --> 00:52:31,889
it's a religion, it's
recognized as one,
986
00:52:32,018 --> 00:52:33,798
so it must be good,
it's got God in it.
987
00:52:35,717 --> 00:52:40,327
Manson is very interested
in the theory in Scientology
988
00:52:42,246 --> 00:52:45,376
that your body is
simply a vessel that
you're temporarily in
989
00:52:46,728 --> 00:52:49,638
and that greater things
are always possible.
990
00:52:49,775 --> 00:52:53,295
You have the opportunity to
be this great, glorious being
991
00:52:53,431 --> 00:52:55,561
and you've probably
been that before
992
00:52:55,694 --> 00:52:58,524
and it's just a matter
of accepting your nature.
993
00:53:00,133 --> 00:53:03,053
He can understand why
that would be attractive
994
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:06,490
and that this would be the
kind of psychological tool
995
00:53:06,618 --> 00:53:09,398
he could use to
impress particularly
996
00:53:09,534 --> 00:53:11,804
young women with
bad self images.
997
00:53:11,927 --> 00:53:13,757
"You may think the
situation you're in
998
00:53:13,886 --> 00:53:16,146
"is really awful,
but it's not you.
999
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,850
[ominous music]
1000
00:53:21,937 --> 00:53:24,027
"It's just such
a temporary thing
1001
00:53:24,157 --> 00:53:26,507
"and I'm gonna teach you
how to move beyond it. "
1002
00:53:26,638 --> 00:53:29,508
[unsettling music]
1003
00:53:29,641 --> 00:53:31,771
- [Manson] The seed
grows up from the ground.
1004
00:53:31,904 --> 00:53:35,564
You go down under the
earth to plant somethin'
1005
00:53:35,690 --> 00:53:38,690
and you plant these seeds
and this garden grows.
1006
00:53:40,391 --> 00:53:43,221
It's the same thing with the
garden that's in the mind.
1007
00:53:43,350 --> 00:53:45,700
- [Interviewer] You think
you'll ever leave prison?
1008
00:53:50,270 --> 00:53:51,270
- Prison?
1009
00:53:52,925 --> 00:53:53,705
I got outta jail.
1010
00:53:57,582 --> 00:53:58,582
I'm inside of you, man.
1011
00:54:00,846 --> 00:54:02,886
I'm inside every one of ya.
1012
00:54:03,022 --> 00:54:04,592
[dramatic music]
1013
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:06,589
Can't you see I'm out, man?
1014
00:54:08,375 --> 00:54:09,455
Can't you see I'm out?
1015
00:54:09,594 --> 00:54:11,074
Can't you see I'm free?
1016
00:54:11,204 --> 00:54:13,994
[haunting jazzy music]
1017
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,820
♪ Every beat of my
eye is just for you ♪
1018
00:54:23,695 --> 00:54:28,045
♪ And I will love you
'til my life is through ♪
1019
00:54:32,921 --> 00:54:37,581
♪ Hence the moment you're
awake I just wanna cry ♪
1020
00:54:42,583 --> 00:54:47,283
♪ Hence the moment I will
pray you don't say goodbye ♪
1021
00:54:49,590 --> 00:54:54,510
♪ For I would die
1022
00:54:56,815 --> 00:54:59,945
♪ Every beat of my...
81317
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