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From Israel tonight,
we report on a battle in the courts
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which is sure to arouse
American interest.
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It is several years now
since a man named John Demjanjuk
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was forced to leave the United States
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so as to be put on trial in Israel
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after he was identified as a man
commonly called Ivan the Terrible.
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Ivan the Terrible was responsible
for mass murder during World War II.
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While Demjanjuk waits to be executed,
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there is new evidence to suggest
that Israel may have the wrong man.
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He's either Ivan the Terrible,
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or it was all a terrible mistake.
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I am innocent man.
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That's a bullshit bum theory.
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Now, the new evidence
from the recently opened files
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of the Soviet KGB raises serious doubts
about Demjanjuk's guilt.
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Today, Israel's Supreme Court
was given evidence
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that strongly suggests Demjanjuk
was not Ivan the Terrible after all.
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The files include
21 testimonies taken from guards
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who served at Treblinka,
called Wachmanns.
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The Wachmanns were interrogatedby the KGB,
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then shot dead for treason.
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Yet, their signed testimonies identify
Ivan the Terrible not as Demjanjuk,
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but as a man
by the name of Ivan Marchenko.
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Oh! Here it is.
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Here it is. Now, this is a very,
very interesting photograph.
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Um, it's in a statement
of this Wachmann from Treblinka.
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And he says that in this photograph,
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you see myself
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and Ivan Marchenko,
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the operator of the gas chambers
in Treblinka.
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And sometimes, one photograph
is more powerful
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than thousands of words.
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When we got the entire material
about Ivan Marchenko,
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we had 80 altogether,
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Treblinka Wachmanns,
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which all characterized
the eyes of Ivan the Terrible
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as dark brown, and so does his ID card.
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"Dunkelbraun."
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Now, the eyes of Demjanjuk
are light blue to gray.
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Light blue to gray.
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These were not the eyes
of Ivan the Terrible.
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They were among the most
dramatic courtroom confrontations
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in history.
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Look at me.
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I saw his eyes.
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I saw those murderous eyes.
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I saw that face of his.
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The eyes Eliahu Rosenberg
was looking at were light blue,
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sitting under hair once dirty blond,
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perched over unmarked cheeks
and thin lips.
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But a photograph
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and testimony
by former Treblinka guards
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that accompanied it
seemed to describe a different man.
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When you take the
photo of Ivan Marchenko
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and you take the photo of Demjanjuk,
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you can't make a mistake
between these two people.
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They are so different.
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Demjanjuk is round, has blue eyes.
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Marchenko is dark with dark eyes.
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He even had a scar on his, uh, cheek.
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You can't make a mistake.
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I see Ivan here, in front of me,
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as I remember him,
as he lives in my mind.
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There he is, as he stands here!
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There is no chance of misidentification.
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They knew him.
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They simply knew him.
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Ivan Demjanjuk, as claimed
by the Holocaust survivors in Jerusalem?
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Or Ivan Marchenko,
as claimed by guards in Russia?
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And will the new evidence from Russia
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secure Demjanjuk's release
on reasonable doubt?
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What do you want from me? Shall I dance?
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I was definitely eager to prove
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that everyone,
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including five...
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legal establishment,
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which were busy...
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for, uh, decades
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in lies and deception...
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all of them are wrong,
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and me alone is right all of the way.
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All of the way,
in everything that was disputed.
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I was right, and they were wrong.
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Soviet documents.
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He was forever screaming
that Soviet documents are fraudulent,
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and yet,
the first opportunity that he gets,
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he waves Soviet testimony of Wachmann
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and says, "This is the truth:
Marchenko was the guard."
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When you enter into all the testimonies
of the Wachmanns from Treblinka
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about Marchenko the operator,
you have everything.
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You have tall, you have short,
you have fat, you have thin.
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You have black hair.
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You have descriptions
that correspond to Demjanjuk.
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I mean, you have a lot of it.
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These were Wachmann
who were questioned
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and then summarily killed.
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The weight that is to be given
to those testimonies
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is very little.
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But the big surprise, of course,
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is the following:
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After the war, when Demjanjuk
wanted to enter the United States,
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he declared that he's Ivan,
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the son of Nikolai Demjanjuk
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and of Olga...
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née, born Marchenko.
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Now, this is too much of a coincidence.
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Demjanjuk had used
the name Marchenko before,
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because it was his mother's maiden name.
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We all know that there are people
who use the mother's maiden name
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as a way of sort of hiding
their true identity
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because it's close enough
and yet far enough.
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It is even more complicated,
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because the defense
rushed to the Ukraine
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and brought from there proof
that the maiden name of his mother
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was not at all Marchenko,
but another name.
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That, again, looked very suspicious.
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It's like, how does that...
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How does he just coincidentally list
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the guard of the gas chamber
as his mother's maiden name?
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Doesn't that seem to offer
powerful corroborating evidence
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of the fact that he
was Ivan the Terrible?
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This is, of course, something
we raised in the Supreme Court.
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It is a very strong incriminating aspect
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of the whole...
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uh... assemblage of evidence.
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The decision on what to do
with him will be made
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by the Supreme Court.
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Their verdict's due shortly.
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It will be very difficult for them
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because if they decide
that this is not Ivan the Terrible,
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then they really have to look into
the eyes of the Holocaust survivors,
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the eyewitnesses,
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and tell them,
"Your testimony is not good enough."
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The appeal court judges may well decide
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that John Demjanjuk
is not Ivan the Terrible.
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That will be a desperately
painful verdict
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for many people in Israel to accept
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because this has been so much more
than a trial of one man's guilt.
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This has been a hearing of history.
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The appellant
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John Ivan Demjanjuk
was extradited over seven years ago
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from the United States to Israel.
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Evidence was presented to prove
the appellant was a Wachmann
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of the Trawniki unit,
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which was established
to teach its members
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how to eradicate, kill, exterminate,
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and bring about the final solution
to the "Jewish problem."
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Evidence also showed
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that he was stationed at Sobibor,
one of three death camps
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in addition to serving as an SS guard
in the concentration camps
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at Flossenburg and Regensburg.
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Several survivors of
the Treblinka inferno
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identified the appellant
as Ivan the Terrible,
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chief among the murderers and abusers
of Jews who were led to Treblinka
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to be choked in the gas chambers.
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For these crimes
he was convicted by the district court.
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Following the appeal,
this court received
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several testimonies
by different Wachmanns
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which pointed to another man
as being Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka.
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And they served to insert doubt
into our judicial deliberations...
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that perhaps the appellant
was not Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka.
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Our verdict is unanimous.
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We find the Wachmann Ivan Demjanjuk...
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innocent...
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on the grounds of reasonable doubt,
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of the horrific charges attributed
to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka.
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Over and not done with.
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Perfection is not the purview
of any human judge.
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Issued today, July 29, 1993.
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Today, five Israeli judges ruled
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that while John Demjanjuk
very likely did serve as a guard
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at a camp devoted to exterminating Jews,
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he was not the infamous guard known
to his victims as Ivan the Terrible,
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and for technical reasons,
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would not be tried by Israel
for any other war crimes.
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Survivors who identified
Demjanjuk believe strongly
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the court is wrong.
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Their eyewitness testimony
originally convinced the court,
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which gave Demjanjuk the death penalty.
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Then, the Supreme Court
overruled that verdict,
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in effect saying the
survivors were wrong.
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How can you release a vicious killer?
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When the court ruled
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he was a murderer at Sobibor?
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This is a trial in the State of Israel?
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We should perform a Keriah.
We should be sitting Shiva.
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Demjanjuk is a murderer
and he should get what he deserves.
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I do not accept it!
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He's a murderer and he killed.
We paid with six million Jews!
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We mustn't forget!
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How could you,
in Jerusalem, sitting in a court of law,
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say that the survivors' testimony
is less than...
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beyond a reasonable doubt?
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To say to that survivor,
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"The man you saw outside
of the gas chamber"
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for months on end,
killing your family...
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We don't believe you.
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"We just don't believe you
that that's him."
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How could that happen?
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I believe it all was a sham
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and the judges know
that I recognized him
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as Ivan the Terrible, for sure.
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Other camp survivors
simply could not believe the verdict.
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Some emerged speechless from the court.
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We have no right
not to believe these people...
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over the testimonies of dead Ukrainians
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who were put on trial for participating
in the death camps.
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Who elevates these guards,
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all who participated
in the killing machine,
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to be greater than the survivors?
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I'm shocked.
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Complete shock.
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The judges are wrong.
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They committed an injustice
to the million dead.
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He is a Nazi archcriminal.
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A million Jews stand behind me.
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When they ask me:
Yosef Cherney, what did you do?
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What will I tell them?
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I did what I could in
the state of Israel.
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That's all I could do.
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Of course it's hard emotionally.
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I fully believe
he was that terrible murderer
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who pushed the Jews
into the gas chambers at knifepoint.
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I had no doubts. I still don't.
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In my heart, there's no doubt...
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that he was identified correctly.
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Demjanjuk was at Treblinka as well.
He worked there
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and committed his horrific crimes there.
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It's a wound that will never heal.
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As for me, I feel sorrow.
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I didn't speak to Epstein,
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I didn't speak to Rosenberg,
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or the other survivors.
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It was very tough for them.
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And... I didn't...
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I think that I didn't want
to make it even worse.
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For me, it is very difficult
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that if we go into trial
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and if we strive for justice,
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our expectation is
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that the same will go for the courts.
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There is, here in Israel,
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a war criminal
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who did crimes against humanity
and against the Jewish people,
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and you let him go
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with arguments that,
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in my opinion, do not hold water.
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I'll tell you the very truth.
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On the whole,
I enjoyed every second of it.
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On Friday, as the Demjanjuk acquittal
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sent the world media into a frenzy,
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Yoram Sheftel was seen relaxing
in a corner of the hotel dining room,
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biting into his buttered bread
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00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,680
and listening to John Demjanjuk Jr.'s
report on recent headlines.
255
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,880
Yoram Sheftel,
how much did you make on this trial?
256
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,280
I'm afraid I only reveal
the exact sum on my tax reports,
257
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:22,720
but I will tell you
and the viewers that it is
258
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,920
a six-figure sum in greens.
259
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,480
The lawyer who defeated
this potential miscarriage of justice
260
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,560
has written the book.
261
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,360
It's called The Demjanjuk Affair:
The Rise and Fall of a Show Trial.
262
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,800
This is the title of a book
by attorney Yoram Sheftel.
263
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:47,440
Which I should mention is a best seller
barely a week after its publication.
264
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,560
See, here's an example
of the transformation.
265
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,680
- Well?
- I'm approached by people I don't know...
266
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,760
- We heard he was here.
- They heard I was here
267
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,240
- and wanted to congratulate me.
- Congratulations.
268
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,880
- That these people are shaking his hand?
- Yes.
269
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,680
- I don't believe my eyes.
- Neither do I.
270
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,040
But I think it's
because it's television.
271
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,680
Yes, people go after cheap celebrity.
272
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,480
At the day that
Demjanjuk was exonerated,
273
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,360
my mother admitted, uh,
274
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,880
the first time in her life,
definitely during my lifetime,
275
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,240
that she was wrong, and I was right.
276
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,400
And I never heard such
a sentence from her
277
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,160
in my entire life.
278
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,760
Yoram Sheftel shows his mother
what he achieved.
279
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,000
My decision to join
the case of Demjanjuk
280
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:52,360
was the most important, clever,
and rightful decision
281
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,200
I ever made in my life.
282
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,240
And all my life,
I would be proud of that decision
283
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,480
and of my conduct in this case.
284
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:18,400
John Demjanjuk,
285
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,160
the man cleared of being
the concentration camp guard
286
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,760
Ivan the Terrible,
has arrived back in America
287
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,360
after a flight from Israel.
288
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,760
Mr. Demjanjuk was still in handcuffs
289
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,120
when he was taken from prison
and put on board a flight to New York.
290
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,920
I believe it was very hard for him,
291
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,480
but he just remained thankful
292
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,200
throughout the whole period of time
that I got involved.
293
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,120
I'm glad Mr. D's name was cleared,
294
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,200
and he deserves some peace.
295
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:08,800
John Demjanjuk is home,
296
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,240
and this ruling sure looks like
he can count on staying home.
297
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,640
I'm very happy he is acquitted.
I grew up as a child with him,
298
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,600
and I know he could never have done
anything that they said he did.
299
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,520
- Ah...
- Never. No one would ever...
300
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,920
The whole time, whole 17 years,
301
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,360
no one would ever convince me
that he was Ivan the Terrible
302
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:25,840
or did anything bad.
303
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,720
Good thing he's free.
304
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,240
Don't you think that still,
you know, the, uh...
305
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,800
crimes that maybe he committed
in Sobibor should be...
306
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,320
Sobibor, who know?
307
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,360
Who know? That so many year passing.
308
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,360
- Yeah.
- And I don't believe that he was there.
309
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,200
Same thing, like Treblinka.
310
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,120
Because that's Ukraine.
311
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,040
I don't know why they
are against Ukraine.
312
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,720
The most significant first memory
of him is the day he came home.
313
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,080
Everybody in the family was excited
and talking.
314
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,880
I didn't get a chance to really talk
to him that much that day.
315
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,080
But I just remember sitting there
and kind of looking over at him
316
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,880
and thinking, "Huh.
This is, you know, the guy that..."
317
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,520
I've, uh, you know,
got to know through... through the TV."
318
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,240
John Demjanjuk came
back to Cleveland to live a quiet life.
319
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,000
We didn't see him much.
320
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,200
He would go to church,
to the Ukrainian Church.
321
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,600
Few people said they saw him go
to the supermarket,
322
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:42,880
the grocery store.
323
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,760
You'd see him around the parks...
324
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,120
uh, presumably with his grandkids.
325
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,840
But he stayed out of the limelight,
326
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,680
but seemed to return
to a quiet life, finally.
327
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:55,960
Which wasn't to be.
328
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,520
There is some doubt
on whether Demjanjuk
329
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:07,800
was Ivan the Terrible.
330
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,520
But there is no doubt
331
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,920
he was a guard taking part
in the mass murder process
332
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,960
at the Sobibor death camp.
333
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,320
To allow such a person
to go unprosecuted
334
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,360
would be to say, in effect, that...
335
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,480
the crimes don't matter,
they're not important.
336
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,480
I became Acting Director of OSI
the year after Demjanjuk came back.
337
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,920
And then, suddenly,
I inherited this case.
338
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,320
The judge told us,
"If you have sufficient evidence,"
339
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,880
you can come back to court
340
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,520
"and ask me to cancel his citizenship."
341
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,960
Clearly, the documents established
342
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,520
that Demjanjuk took part
in the mass annihilation process.
343
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,080
There is no question.
344
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,040
Absolutely no question
that the Trawniki card is authentic.
345
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,400
Demjanjuk was a specialist
in the annihilation of Jews.
346
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,000
We know that because he served
at a series of Nazi camps,
347
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,800
starting
with the Trawniki forced labor camp,
348
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,640
Then, he served
at the Sobibor extermination camp.
349
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,040
He also served, possibly, at Treblinka.
350
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,320
He served later
at the Flossenburg concentration camp.
351
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,680
Also at the Majdanek concentration camp.
352
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,880
And there is direct evidence
353
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,680
that John Demjanjuk beat Jews
354
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,680
on the way to the gas chambers.
355
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,320
The United States had a moral obligation
356
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,200
to the survivors
357
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,120
to see that he was brought to justice.
358
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,960
We didn't have criminal jurisdiction
under American law
359
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,840
because the Nazi crimes
didn't occur here.
360
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,920
Germany, of course,
was the logical destination.
361
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,320
Federal immigration agents went in,
362
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,000
and they picked him up in a wheelchair.
363
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,840
They took him out.
364
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,840
He just looked so bad.
365
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,320
People were stunned that the government
continued to go after geriatric men
366
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,240
for what they did years earlier.
367
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,000
What kind of a threat did you see
on that old man?
368
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,240
What harm to society did he pose
to anybody?
369
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,160
I was talking to a federal prosecutor.
370
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,240
And I said,
"The Holocaust was 50 years ago.
371
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,760
When will the government
ultimately stop?"
372
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,760
He looked me right in the eye
and he said,
373
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320
"When these men take
their last dying breaths."
374
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,440
Demjanjuk's lawyers rushed to court
375
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,920
claiming that putting a man
in this terrible medical condition
376
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,640
on a plane
to Germany would amount to torture.
377
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,720
Right this very moment,
378
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,640
there's a motion before the
Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.
379
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,440
Uh, it is a CAT claim,
380
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,760
which means Convention Against Torture,
381
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,640
and a stay on his deportation.
382
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:48,920
If that's the case,
383
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,680
you'll all be back here
when they bring him back today.
384
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,680
The Court of Appeals issued an order
385
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,600
temporarily barring us
from removing Demjanjuk.
386
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Of course, Demjanjuk's lawyers were saying
he was in such terrible medical shape.
387
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,720
It was all faked.
388
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,880
We had surveillance video shot
389
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,560
just before Demjanjuk
had been taken out,
390
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,240
showing him walking around,
391
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,640
going to an appointment,
getting out of a car,
392
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,520
opening the door,
getting back into the car.
393
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,720
It was a ruse.
394
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,800
Once we made it public,
395
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,320
immediately the Sixth Circuit Court
of Appeals lifted the order.
396
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,520
I remember watching a live video feed
397
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,880
of that plane taking off,
398
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,680
and I remember saying to my deputy,
399
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,320
"Everything that could go wrong
has gone wrong. And so..."
400
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,360
there's going to be some reason
for it to come back.
401
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,520
"I just feel it."
402
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:04,800
Within hours,
403
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,200
an official of the US Consulate there
sent me an e-mail.
404
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,280
And if you remember the first words
405
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,000
when the United States
landed on the moon:
406
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,720
"Houston, the Eagle has landed."
407
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,080
The title of the e-mail was
"The Albatross Has Landed."
408
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,920
I appreciated that.
409
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,600
The plaza was filled
with TV vans and reporters
410
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,320
and people lining up, waiting to get in.
411
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,080
They had to turn thousands away.
412
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:47,640
When the door opened,
413
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,000
everybody in the courtroom went...
414
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,680
He looked dead.
415
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:54,920
His eyes were closed.
416
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,920
His hands were crossed on his chest
like he was in a coffin.
417
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,320
Photographers went crazy,
took him at all different angles.
418
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:02,800
He never blinked.
419
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,720
They read the charges against him.
He never blinked.
420
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,240
Once in a while, during the trial,
he may twitch a little bit.
421
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,560
And most people concluded
422
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,800
he was playing the sympathy card.
423
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,840
He was playing a game.
424
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,360
He was a good actor.
425
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,760
He had 30 years of experience.
426
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:29,480
Demjanjuk...
427
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:32,640
played the part.
428
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,120
And he was prepared to stay the course
to the end.
429
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,760
If he'd have gone
to the gallows, he'd have said no.
430
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,960
There would have been
no deathbed confession.
431
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,360
I guarantee it.
432
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,560
This was the final act.
433
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,840
The trial in Israel was filled
with so much pain.
434
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,520
Some members of the prosecution team
never recovered.
435
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,720
But in my opinion,
436
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,960
it was ordained that he should
be released from Jerusalem
437
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,560
so that he would show up
in Munich, Germany,
438
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,480
where Hitler stood
and delivered his speeches.
439
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,560
And here, John Ivan Demjanjuk,
440
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,920
the man who pushed
and shoved Jewish men
441
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,120
and women and children
into the gas chambers,
442
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,560
who participated in one of the biggest
killing machines humanity has ever seen,
443
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,440
60 years later,
444
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,840
be convicted as being a participant
to the murder of millions of Jews.
445
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,360
A court in Germany, this morning,
convicted former US citizen
446
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,800
and accused Nazi death camp guard,
John Demjanjuk.
447
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,360
A judge in Munich, Germany,
handed down the sentence
448
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,280
to the 91-year-old
former Ohio autoworker today.
449
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,160
Demjanjuk, who is now 91 years old,
450
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,040
was charged with more than 28,000
counts of accessory to murder.
451
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,560
It's taken more than 30 years
to convict John Demjanjuk,
452
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,120
a cog in the Nazi war machine.
453
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,840
In the 1980s,
the Israeli Supreme Court ruled
454
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,400
that it was a case of mistaken identity.
455
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,000
This time,
the judge was in no such doubt.
456
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,200
Am I prepared to say...
457
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,720
that they were right?
458
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,600
I wasn't in the trial.
459
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,480
I accept the justice system
in Germany, okay?
460
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,120
All right?
In this case, that's all I can say.
461
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,880
The Demjanjuk trial, or trials,
462
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,040
are the last great trial
of any Nazi war criminal.
463
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,800
The victims are dying out,
and so are the murderers.
464
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,800
Some were caught over the years,
others escaped.
465
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,480
Some walk freely even today.
466
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,680
There is no revenge,
there is no perfect justice,
467
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,280
but a partial justice, a late trial,
468
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,240
are better than injustice
or no trial at all.
469
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,240
There is a clear-cut proof
470
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,560
that the German Court didn't believe
for a second
471
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,560
the truth of his guilty sentence.
472
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,000
How do I know it?
473
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,640
What the judge does,
474
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,280
from his own initiative,
475
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,320
he asked the defense lawyer,
476
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,840
"Are you going to appeal?"
477
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Defense lawyer says, "Yes,"
so he released Demjanjuk.
478
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,920
So... And he was released...
479
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,440
to be a free man, on the spot,
480
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,840
when they found him guilty
of murdering 29,000 Jews.
481
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,760
It's a joke. It's a joke.
482
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,640
People didn't appreciate
483
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,800
how important this trial was.
484
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,080
That, you know, you could say,
"Ah, they convicted a 91-year-old."
485
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,800
They sentenced him
to five years in prison.
486
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:25,360
"Big deal."
487
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,400
It was a big deal.
488
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,920
It was not a crime to aid and abet.
489
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,560
To be a part of the
Nazi killing machine.
490
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,280
It was not a crime.
491
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,640
John Demjanjuk had set a precedent.
492
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,960
These foot soldiers
are critical, critical instruments
493
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,120
for genocide's
implementation and success.
494
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,240
Without these foot soldiers of genocide,
495
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,120
you don't have the Holocaust.
496
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,800
Any type of assistance to the machinery
497
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,080
was a participant to the murder
and Final Solution of the Jews.
498
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,120
It took us 60 years and more
499
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,200
to be able to say that.
500
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,520
Well, as a line leader, I interacted
with John 300 times probably.
501
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,560
Because I had to think about this, what
could I possibly tell you about John?
502
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,960
So I'm not gonna tell you anything
about John.
503
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,800
I'm going to tell you
about the people that came
504
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,160
to work at Ford.
505
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,880
From Germany, the Ukraine,
506
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,800
all the people that, either trying
to get out during the war,
507
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,200
or they emigrated right after the war.
508
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:09,880
They were all the same.
509
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:14,680
They went to work.
510
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:16,360
They did their job.
511
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Hardly ever talked.
512
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,680
And then they disappeared
into the darkness.
513
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,680
If you were in maintenance,
514
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,960
they had these huge
areas in the corners.
515
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,200
And they sat in those areas
by their toolboxes,
516
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:33,960
and they waited for the whistle to blow.
517
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,360
At that point,
they came out of the shadows,
518
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,560
work on the line,
then they would go back.
519
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,160
They were truly invisible people.
520
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,080
If you pick that story up
and equated it to John,
521
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,600
you'd say John was hiding.
522
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,400
The truth was,
523
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,240
that was all of them.
524
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,640
The US fought the Nazis in World War II.
525
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,800
We defeated Hitler in World War II.
526
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,800
How could Nazi war criminals wind up
in the United States?
527
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,560
When I was first elected to Congress...
528
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,920
a man came to me
in my Washington office,
529
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,560
and he wasn't crazy on the outside,
530
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,880
but his allegation was crazy.
531
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,880
He said to me the government has a list
532
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,640
of Nazi war criminals living
in the United States.
533
00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:41,240
I almost fell off my chair.
534
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,680
I said, "Okay, I want to see the files."
535
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:49,680
And I opened the first one.
536
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:51,720
"John Doe."
537
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,160
Murdered Jews in Latvia.
538
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:57,760
Immigration official went to visit
this man.
539
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,360
'Are you so-and-so?'
'Yes, I'm so-and-so.'
540
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:01,640
'How you feeling?'
541
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,040
'I feel fine.'
542
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:05,920
"'Thank you very much. Bye.'"
543
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,800
What? There must be some mistake here.
544
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,200
I must have missed something.
545
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,600
So I go to the next file.
546
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200
Different country, different allegation,
same thing.
547
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,080
"Are you so and so?
How are you feeling?"
548
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,160
"I feel fine."
549
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,920
"Thank you very much. Bye."
550
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,960
I went through file after file,
and that's all they were asking.
551
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,080
"How do you feel?"
552
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,520
This is the immigration service.
553
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,880
This is not the public health service
of the US.
554
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,160
And I realized that
they had no intention
555
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,960
of ever doing anything
about these cases.
556
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,680
I'm sure
there's thousands of Nazis around.
557
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,560
Come on. They're here everywhere
in the United States.
558
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,240
Americans were well aware of the fact
559
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,920
that we grabbed a lot of the people
that were good for us,
560
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,800
that help us with programs
and all those other things.
561
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,000
And they weren't Nazis.
562
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:04,760
Because we needed 'em.
563
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,600
American industry
and US immigration law,
564
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,200
even American banks,
play the principal role
565
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,760
in harboring
and hiding Nazi collaborators.
566
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,240
The United States, in general,
couldn't care less.
567
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,040
The basic principle in the United States
was let sleeping Nazis lie.
568
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,840
They are some of the most
anti-communistic people you can find,
569
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,440
and therefore, they're an asset
570
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,360
because they will fight communism
in our country.
571
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,640
SS officers, Nazi scientists,
572
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:52,000
some of whom engaged in actually
torturous experimentation on people...
573
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,600
They said they were anti-communist,
574
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,000
and that was the beginning and end
of the conversation.
575
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,280
Even if they knew that they had engaged
in persecution of thousands,
576
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,440
it didn't matter.
577
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,160
You know, there's a famous saying:
578
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,120
"The victors write history."
579
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,840
So you can go after John
580
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,680
because you thought
he was Ivan the Terrible,
581
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,480
and if he was Ivan the Terrible,
he should rot in hell.
582
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,640
But what I will tell you is...
583
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,640
the father of all of NASA,
584
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:24,280
which is right up the street,
585
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,240
is Wernher von Braun.
586
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,600
He's a celebrated hero
here in this country.
587
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,760
You took a Nazi war criminal
588
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,240
and put him in charge
of our rocket program.
589
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,560
This guy invented the rockets
that were bombing England.
590
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,600
But he got us to the moon.
591
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,480
So, he was a "good Nazi."
592
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,480
It's all a matter of perspective,
isn't it?
593
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,240
We don't have a statute of limitations
594
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,800
in this country on murder.
595
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,280
And we also don't have
one on mass murder.
596
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,320
And you can't just say,
"Oh, I've been a good boy, a good girl."
597
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,360
I only killed 100 people, 1,000 people,
598
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,440
"but, you know, I'm a good person now."
599
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,280
Well, maybe you are,
600
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,640
but there are plenty people today
who want to commit mass murder.
601
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:17,520
And if we say, "Nazis can go free."
602
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,440
Fine, let's move on"...
603
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,120
what's the message
to every would-be mass murderer today?
604
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,840
Well, you can get away with it.
605
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,760
Over the weekend, Demjanjuk died
606
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,360
in Germany at the age of 91.
607
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,000
He was convicted last year,
after being deported to Germany.
608
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,040
He died in a nursing home there
while awaiting the outcome of an appeal.
609
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,600
According to German law,
610
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,120
if a convicted felon dies
during his appeal proceedings,
611
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,120
his guilt is revoked,
and his final verdict remains unknown.
612
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,720
The problem is that
Demjanjuk passed away
613
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,520
between his conviction and his appeal,
614
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,920
and therefore,
according to the German law,
615
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,120
finally, when he passed away,
616
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:11,680
he passed away, again,
617
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,960
uh, under the presumption
that he's innocent.
618
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,760
So, the whole story
is an unfinished business
619
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,840
from any aspect that you look upon.
620
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,920
I know he wasn't a bad man,
and I know he wasn't Ivan the Terrible.
621
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,200
I know that he did
what he had to do to survive,
622
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,560
and that's good enough for me.
623
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,120
Do you ever speculate what he did?
624
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,640
There's no point, you know?
I'm a history buff.
625
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,200
I read up on, you know, Flossenbürg,
Majdanek, Auschwitz-Birkenau.
626
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,360
I mean, I... like I said, I know, I did
so much history and research on all that,
627
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,760
so I can imagine what
he could have done,
628
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,640
but not just him,
everybody in that situation.
629
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,840
You, me, your friends, my friends.
630
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:01,680
If you were put in that situation,
631
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,120
and you were given the choice
between life and death,
632
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,840
I mean, what are you going to pick?
633
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,680
So, whatever he did
634
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,560
and wherever he was
is insignificant to me.
635
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,360
I was walking down the street
in Jerusalem several years ago,
636
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,160
and I saw a poster,
637
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:40,320
and it stated, "The prosecutor at Munich
speaks about the Demjanjuk trial."
638
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,120
And I sat there, and I listened
639
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:49,240
to the systematic explanations
that were made by the prosecutor
640
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,960
on why John Demjanjuk was convicted
641
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,080
in Munich by the Germans...
642
00:41:58,240 --> 00:41:59,880
of being at Sobibor.
643
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,080
And I approached him afterwards,
and I said,
644
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,320
"Do you believe the survivors
that he was in Treblinka?"
645
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,120
And he kind of shied away
from giving me an answer.
646
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,440
And then he looked at me,
and he said something.
647
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,720
"In Germany, we have our documents."
648
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,520
But this is the country of the Jews.
649
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,080
"Your survivors
are the people you believe."
52333
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