Original subtitles

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--Captions by VITAC-- www.vitac.com

CAPTIONS PAID FOR BY DISCOVERY COMMUNICATIONS

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- YOU'RE ALL SET. - OKAY. THANK YOU.

Woman: OKAY. EVERYBODY, SETTLE, PLEASE.

Man: MARKER.

Sellers: GENOCIDE, MASS MURDER, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

I'M ALWAYS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT,

WHY DO PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN ACTS THAT ARE HATEFUL,

THAT ARE EVIL, DESTRUCTIVE, THAT ARE MONSTROUS?

HOW DO WE HUMAN BEINGS ARRIVE AT THAT PLACE?

AND, AT THE SAME TIME,

HOW DO SOME PEOPLE MANAGE TO RESIST THE EVIL,

TO PUSH BACK THAT DARKNESS?

All: ♪ WE SHALL OVERCOME ♪

Sellers: IN THE '60s AND THE '70s, WHEN I GREW UP,

THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS IN FULL SWING.

THE DINNER TABLE --

THERE WERE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS,

ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG, ABOUT JUSTICE.

I WANTED TO BE A LAWYER EVER SINCE I WAS ABOUT 11 OR 12,

BUT IT WAS ALWAYS LAW WITH SOCIAL JUSTICE.

I STARTED MY CAREER AS A PUBLIC DEFENDER IN PHILADELPHIA.

FOR THE PAST 25 YEARS, I'VE BEEN WORKING

AS AN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL LAWYER...

ON BEHALF OF THE PROSECUTION...

...WITH WAR CRIMES, GENOCIDE, OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY...

Reporter: ROHINGYA MUSLIMS WERE THE MAIN VICTIMS OF SLAUGHTER

IN REMOTE WESTERN MYANMAR.

Sellers: ...WHICH OFTEN ARE BASED UPON RELENTLESS PERSECUTION...

Reporter #2: THE EXODUS FROM RWANDA IS SO MASSIVE...

Sellers: ...THAT COULD ENTAIL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEATHS.

Reporter #3: WE TURN NOW TO SYRIA AND THE CIVIL WAR THAT HAS LEFT THIS...

Sellers: THESE TYPES OF CRIMES HAVE OCCURRED THROUGHOUT HISTORY,

EVEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THIS IS THE NATIONAL MEMORIAL FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE.

MM.

YOU KNOW, THESE WERE LANDS

OCCUPIED BY NATIVE AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE,

AND THEY WERE ANNIHILATED.

THEY WERE FORCED OFF THE LAND.

NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY HAS A CONSCIOUSNESS

ABOUT THE NATIVE GENOCIDE.

IN FACT, WHEN YOU START USING THAT WORD,

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE HEART OF GENOCIDE IS, HOW DO YOU DESTROY A GROUP?

THE WAY THEY DID IT IN THE UNITED STATES

WAS CREATING A NARRATIVE OF RACIAL DIFFERENCE.

"THEY'RE SAVAGES." RIGHT.

THEY WEREN'T "TRULY HUMAN,"

AND WE USED THIS RHETORIC TO JUSTIFY THAT VIOLENCE.

AND SO THEIR ABUSE, THEIR DEATH, THEIR DISEASE,

THEIR SUFFERING WASN'T SOMETHING THAT REGISTERED.

WE DIDN'T FEEL INDECENT OR INHUMANE

BY THE WAY WE WERE FORCING PEOPLE OFF THEIR LAND.

AND I THINK THAT THIS KIND OF NARRATIVE

IS ALSO WHAT ALLOWED THIS NATION TO BE COMFORTABLE

WITH ENSLAVING MILLIONS OF AFRICANS.

AND THIS COMMUNITY IN PARTICULAR

HAS A VERY, VERY INTENSE SLAVE HISTORY.

ALABAMA, OF COURSE, WAS AT THE HEART

OF THE DOMESTIC SLAVE TRADE.MM-HMM.

AND BY 1860, TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS COUNTY

WERE ENSLAVED BLACK PEOPLE.

FOR CENTURIES, THE NARRATIVE OF RACIAL INFERIORITY

WAS USED TO JUSTIFY SLAVERY.

BUT ONCE SLAVERY WAS ABOLISHED,

WHITES NEEDING TO MAINTAIN RACIAL DOMINANCE

DEVISED A NEW SOCIAL ORDER -- JIM CROW SEGREGATION.

UNDER INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL LAW,

WE WOULD CALL THAT APARTHEID.

THERE IS A CAMPAIGN OF TERROR

TO GET FORMERLY ENSLAVED BLACK PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE

IN THIS NEW SOCIAL ORDER,

THIS NEW RACIAL ORDER WHERE THEY'RE DISENFRANCHISED,

THEY'RE FORCED TO WORK AS SHARECROPPERS

AND TENANT FARMERS.

THEY STILL DON'T OWN THEIR BODIES, THEIR FAMILIES.

AND THIS BEGINS THIS ERA OF RACIAL TERROR, LYNCHING.

♪♪

♪♪

THIS MONUMENT GIVES YOU AN EDUCATION

ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION OF THIS VIOLENCE,

AND SOMETIMES IN VERY LARGE-SCALE EVENTS.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WERE KILLED

AT THE SAME MOMENT ON THE SAME DAY.

OH, MY GOD.

WORKERS WOULD BE LYNCHED IF THEY BEGAN TO SHOW

ANY SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION AND PROTEST.

SEVEN BLACK PEOPLE LYNCHED FOR DRINKING

FROM A WHITE MAN'S WELL.

OFTENTIMES, YOU'D HAVE HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS, OF PEOPLE

COMING TO THESE SPACES TO WATCH --

TO, IF YOU WILL, CELEBRATE THIS TORTURE.

AND THEY WOULD BRING SMALL CHILDREN.

RIGHT. I'VE SEEN THE POSTCARDS.

SEEN THE POSTCARDS AND... JUST TO TAKE A POSTCARD.

WE HAVE NEWSPAPERS ADVERTISING, "NEGRO TO BE LYNCHED AT 5:00."

"COME, COME." "COME."

YOU MAKE ME THINK ABOUT THIS OTHER CONCEPT

IN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL LAW,

THAT THESE ARE COLLECTIVE CRIMES.

YES. ABSOLUTELY.

A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY IS AGAINST

THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.ABSOLUTELY.

AND IT MIGHT TAKE PLACE BY DOING ONE THING TO ONE PERSON...

THAT'S RIGHT.

...BUT THROUGH LYNCHING THE INDIVIDUALS,

YOU HAVE TERRORIZED THE ENTIRE POPULATION.

ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT'S MY LAST NAME.

OH, MY GOODNESS. SELLERS.

OH, MY GOODNESS.

THAT'S MY LAST NAME. REALLY?

AND THAT'S THE THING.

PEOPLE LEFT MISSISSIPPI FOR PLACES LIKE PHILADELPHIA,

FOR PLACES LIKE NEW JERSEY... YES.

...AND DIDN'T TALK ABOUT WHERE THEY HAD COME FROM.

WOW.

WOW. YEAH. YEAH.

NO ONE SHOULD THINK, "WELL, IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD,

THIS CAN'T HAPPEN." MM-HMM.

IT CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE,

WHETHER IT'S IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH

OR WHETHER IT'S IN EASTERN EUROPE

OR WHETHER IT'S IN SUB-SAHARA AFRICA.

I JUST THINK WE ALL HAVE TO HAVE A CONSCIOUSNESS

THAT WHEN YOU SEE THIS, WE HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT.

WE CAN'T ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE GOVERNED BY FEAR AND ANGER.

THESE ARE NOT CRIMES OF STARTLED PASSION,

THAT ONE DAY, I'VE DECIDED THAT I DON'T LIKE MY NEIGHBOR.

[ ALL CHANTING ]

WE GET THERE STEP BY STEP.

THERE WAS INCITEMENT,

PROPAGANDA BEING HAMMERED INTO YOUR HEAD

THAT THEY ARE NOT US

AND WE HAVE TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

AND WE NORMALIZE THE HATE, THE MASSIVE VIOLENCE.

WE SHRUG AND SAY, "WELL, I GUESS THAT'S THE WAY IT IS."

♪♪

AND WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE KEY CASES I'VE WORKED ON

OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY OR GENOCIDE,

YOU OFTEN FIND A LEADER...

[ CROWD CHANTING ]

...SOMEONE WHO PERSONIFIES A TYPE OF IDEOLOGY

FOR THE MASSES

AND THAT CONVINCES PEOPLE THERE'S AN ENEMY OUT THERE,

AND THIS ENEMY IS GOING AFTER OUR VALUES,

AND THIS ENEMY HAS TO BE ELIMINATED.

THE LEADER CAN SAY, "NO, THIS IS NOT HATE.

THIS IS LOVE. THIS IS SELF-LOVE. WE WILL REGAIN OUR GLORY."

Reporter: IT BEGAN ON APRIL THE 17th, 1975,

WHEN POL POT DECLARED IT WAS DAY ONE OF YEAR ZERO.

Sellers: POL POT WAS THE LEADER OF THE KHMER ROUGE REVOLUTION

IN CAMBODIA,

A SMALL COUNTRY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA.

HE'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE OF LEADERSHIP

THAT INCITES A NATIONAL HYSTERIA OR CRAZINESS.

DECADES OF HUMILIATION UNDER THE YOKE OF FRENCH COLONIZERS

AND AMERICAN MILITARY INVADERS WOULD BE ENDED THROUGH A PROGRAM

OF EXTREME SOCIAL ENGINEERING AND HARD-LINE COMMUNISM.

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

POL POT REMINDED THE CAMBODIANS OF THEIR GLORIOUS PAST.

ANGKOR WAS A SPLENDID ANCIENT KHMER KINGDOM.

IT WAS A THRIVING COSMOPOLITAN CAPITAL,

LIKE PARIS OR LONDON, IN ITS DAY.

SO POL POT REMINDS PEOPLE

THAT WE WILL REGAIN THIS GLORY OF THE 12th CENTURY,

AND WITHIN ONE GENERATION,

HE WAS GOING TO MAKE CAMBODIA GREAT AGAIN.

TO DO THAT, POL POT AIMED TO ROOT OUT

AND ERADICATE CORRUPT ELEMENTS OF SOCIETY --

THE CAPITALISTS AND INTELLECTUALS,

WHO HE SAID EXPLOITED DECENT CAMBODIANS.

THESE ENEMIES OF THE REVOLUTION DESERVED NO MERCY.

Reporter: ALMOST 2 MILLION PEOPLE,

ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION,

DIED DURING THE KHMER ROUGE RULE FROM 1975 TO 1979.

Sellers: BUT TO KILL SO MANY PEOPLE,

YOU NEED A TYPE OF MACHINE, AN ORGANIZATION --

NOT JUST POL POT,

BUT THE PERSONS WHO SURROUNDED HIM.

Reporter: PRISON BOSS KANG KEK IEW, KNOWN AS COMRADE DUCH,

ADMITS HE OVERSAW THE KILLING OF UP TO 15,000 PEOPLE.

THE CHAMBER FINDS KANG KEK IEW GUILTY.

Reporter: NOW, THE MAN WHO ORDERED THEIR DEATH

HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY,

EXTERMINATION, TORTURE, PERSECUTION, AND ENSLAVEMENT.

Reporter #2: IN FACT, THEY SAID, HIS CRIMES WERE AMONG THE MOST HEINOUS

THAT ANYONE HAD EVER COMMITTED.

THEY CALLED FOR THE HEAVIEST PENALTY POSSIBLE --

LIFE IMPRISONMENT.

Sellers: YOU CAN HAVE LEGAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE EVIDENCE, THE FACTS.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS THAT HUMAN QUESTION OF,

WHY DID THEY DO IT?

HOW COULD THEY DO IT?

Man: MARKER.

Sellers: WHEN YOU INVESTIGATE INTERNATIONAL CRIMES,

THERE'S ALWAYS THE QUESTION YOU ASK YOURSELF OF,

"HOW DID THIS PERSON DO THESE ALLEGED ACTS?"

AND I THINK EVERYONE ASKS THAT QUESTION.

"WHY DID YOU DO THIS?"

COMRADE DUCH RAN THE NOTORIOUS TORTURE CENTER S-21.

IT WAS THE INTERNATIONAL COURT'S FIRST VERDICT,

MORE THAN THREE DECADES AFTER THE CAMBODIAN ATROCITIES.

♪♪

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ MACHINE-GUN FIRE ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

♪♪

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

♪♪

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

♪♪

Sellers: MOST OF US BELIEVE WE WOULD NEVER TAKE PART

IN CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

BUT IN MY WORK PROSECUTING WAR CRIMES,

I'M ALWAYS SURPRISED BY HOW MANY PEOPLE DOMAKE THAT CHOICE.

SO, WHAT BRINGS OUT THE MONSTER WITHIN US?

♪♪

Sellers: FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK ON INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES,

A KEY REFERENCE POINT IS THE HOLOCAUST,

WHEN NAZI GERMANY ELIMINATED 6 MILLION JEWS.

AFTER WORLD WAR II,

WHEN THE SCALE AND THE DIMENSION OF THE HOLOCAUST WAS REVEALED,

QUESTIONS HAD TO BE ASKED.

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

IS IT IN OUR NATURE TO TREAT EACH OTHER WITH SUCH BRUTALITY?

Reporter: IN JERUSALEM, THE TRIAL OF ADOLF EICHMANN BEGINS,

REVIVING MEMORIES OF THE NAZI HORRORS OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

Haslam: ADOLF EICHMANN WAS THE CHIEF ARCHITECT OF WHAT WAS KNOWN

AS THE FINAL SOLUTION, THE NAZIS' FINAL SOLUTION,

THEIR PROJECT TO ELIMINATE THE JEWS.

WHAT PEOPLE EXPECTED WAS TO SEE A MONSTER,

BUT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY SAW WAS SOMEONE WHO LOOKED

SORT OF FRIGHTENINGLY NORMAL.

[ SPEAKING GERMAN ]

AND IN MANY WAYS, THAT WAS MORE SHOCKING,

THE IDEA THAT THE PERPETRATORS OF EVIL,

THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT

AND DRIVING THE HOLOCAUST,

WERE PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU AND I.

♪♪

THE FIRST THING I EVER REMEMBER IN A PSYCHOLOGY LECTURE

IS BEING TOLD ABOUT THE MILGRAM STUDIES.

STANLEY MILGRAM, WHO WAS A PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR AT YALE,

WAS OF JEWISH ORIGIN.

HIS FAMILY HAD ONLY VERY NARROWLY ESCAPED NAZI TYRANNY

IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS INCONCEIVABLE

THAT THE GERMAN PEOPLE COULD, AS A WHOLE, TURN TO TYRANNY,

COULD TURN TO NAZIS AND FASCISM IN THE WAY THAT THEY HAD.

AND YET, WHAT MILGRAM'S CONTEMPORARIES HAD OBSERVED

WAS THAT THE WHOLE NATION WAS, IN A WAY,

SWEPT UP IN THIS TIDE OF HATE.

SO MILGRAM'S KIND OF MOTIVATION WAS TO UNDERSTAND

TO WHAT EXTENT COULD ORDINARY PEOPLE BE TURNED

TO PERPETRATORS OF TYRANNY AND EVIL.

AN EXPERIMENT IS BEING CONDUCTED

IN THE ELEGANT INTERACTION LABORATORY AT YALE UNIVERSITY.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE TRIAL OF ADOLF EICHMANN IN 1961,

STANLEY MILGRAM PUT ADVERTS IN THE NEW HAVEN NEWSPAPERS

ASKING FOR MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC

TO COME TO HIS LABORATORY AND TAKE PART IN AN EXPERIMENT

ON THE EFFECTS OF PUNISHMENT ON LEARNING.

THE LEARNER THEN SITS DOWN

AND HAS TO REMEMBER THESE PAIRS OF WORDS.

BLUE GIRL, NICE DAY, FAT NECK, AND SO FORTH.

FAT, MAN, LADY, TUB, NECK.

THE TEACHER READS THEM OUT WORDS.

[ BUZZER SOUNDS ]

EVERY TIME THE LEARNER INCORRECTLY PAIR A WORD

WITH THE TARGET WORD,

THE TEACHER'S JOB IS TO ADMINISTER

A PUNISHMENT TO THEM IN A SHORT ELECTRIC SHOCK,

STARTING WITH 15 VOLTS, GOING UP IN 30 15-VOLT INTERVALS

ALL THE WAY TO 450 VOLTS.

[ ELECTRICITY BUZZING ]WRONG. 45 VOLTS.

- 75 VOLTS. - OW!

ABOUT 90 VOLTS, THE LEARNER GOES, "OW!"

[ BUZZING ]Man: MMPH!

105.

[BUZZING ] OW!

AND THEN IT GETS TO 150,

AND HE'S GOING, "LET ME OUT OF HERE!"

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO KEEP ME HERE!

LET ME OUT!

AND IT ESCALATES THEREAFTER.

[ BUZZING ][ SCREAMS ]

IN FACT, THE WHOLE STRUCTURE OF THE EXPERIMENT

WAS A VERY CUNNING BIT OF, IF YOU LIKE, THEATER.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY WERE REALLYINTERESTED IN

WAS THE WILLINGNESS OF THE PARTICIPANT

WHO WAS THE TEACHER...

- GO ON, PLEASE. - ...TO FOLLOW TOXIC INSTRUCTIONS

AND INFLICT PAIN ON ANOTHER PERSON.

[ BUZZING ]I CAN'T STAND THE PAIN!

THE TRUE PARTICIPANT WAS ALWAYS GONNA BE A TEACHER.

Researcher: LEARNER, WOULD YOU STEP OUT HERE WITH ME, PLEASE?

THE LEARNER WAS ACTUALLY A COLLABORATOR OF MILGRAM'S,

AND IN FACT, THE CRIES OF PAIN HAD ACTUALLY BEEN PRERECORDED.

Man: LET ME OUT!

CONTINUE, PLEASE. GO ON.

Haslam: INTERESTINGLY, WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THE ARCHIVES,

A CRITICAL PIECE IS WHAT MILGRAM DID

TO MAKE THEM WANT TO DO WHAT THEY DID.

THE EXPERIMENT REQUIRES THAT YOU CONTINUE, TEACHER.

ALRIGHT. THE NEXT ONE -- SLOW.

Haslam: HE SET THIS UP AS A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF SCIENCE,

AND YOU'RE MAKING A GREAT CONTRIBUTION

TO SCIENCE BY PARTICIPATING IN IT.

IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CONTINUE THE EXPERIMENT.

HIM SELLING THAT PROJECT,

THE ENTERPRISE OF SOMETHING THAT WAS GOOD AND WORTHY...

Man: LET ME OUT! LET ME OUT! LET ME OUT OF HERE!

Haslam: ...WAS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO THEIR CONTINUATION.

THE EXPERIMENT REQUIRES THAT WE GO ON.

THEY SAW HIS GOALS AS WORTHY AND VALID.

THEY SAW THE SCIENCE OF THE STUDY AS IMPORTANT.

THEY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY WERE DOING TO BE A GOOD THING,

NOT A BAD THING.

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

Haslam: 65% OF THE PARTICIPANTS WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE END

OF THE SHOCK BOARD, PAST A POINT LABELED "DANGER -- XXX."

THE MILGRAM STUDY SUGGESTED THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON IN THE STREET

WOULD BE WILLING TO KILL SOMEONE

JUST BECAUSE IT WAS ASKED OF THEM

IN A PIECE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS A SHOCKING, SURPRISING,

ALARMING, HUGELY PROVOCATIVE FINDING.

♪♪

THIS IS CASE NUMBER IT-03-68-T,

THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS NASER ORIC.

Sellers: AFTER THE HOLOCAUST, THERE WERE NEW LAWS

PUT IN PLACE, SUCH AS THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION.

THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS DRAGAN NIKOLIC.

BUT HAVING THESE INTERNATIONAL LAWS AND INSTITUTIONS

RAISED THE QUESTION --

WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE CRIMES?

ONLY THE LEADERS, LIKE HITLER?

OR HIGH-LEVEL MANAGERS, LIKE ADOLF EICHMANN OR COMRADE DUCH?

WHAT ABOUT THE UNDERLINGS WHO EXECUTE THEIR ORDERS?

ARE THEY ALSO CULPABLE?

♪♪

Rueckel: WHEN WE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL IN THE LATE '60s, EARLY '70s,

WE LEARNED THAT, BASICALLY, THERE WAS ONLY ONE PERPETRATOR,

AND THE PERPETRATOR WAS ADOLF HITLER

AND SOME OTHER LEADING NAZI OFFICIALS.

Announcer: JUDGES FROM BRITAIN, AMERICA,

RUSSIA, AND FRANCE ASSEMBLE IN NUREMBERG'S COURTHOUSE.

THE TRIBUNAL SITS IN JUDGEMENT UPON 20 LEADERS

OF THE NAZI PARTY.

Rueckel: GERMANY ACCOMPLISHED A LOT THROUGH THESE NAZI TRIALS,

BUT THEY DID NOT DO ENOUGH.

PROBABLY LESS THAN 5% OF THE PERPETRATORS

HAVE EVER STAND TRIAL.

Sellers: CHRISTOPH RUECKEL WAS AN INTERNATIONAL CORPORATE LAWYER

FOR DECADES, BUT A FEW YEARS AGO,

HE BEGAN PROSECUTING NAZI WAR CRIMES.

AND TODAY, HE'S REPRESENTING JEWISH SURVIVORS

OF THE STUTTHOF CONCENTRATION CAMP

IN NORTHERN POLAND.

Reporter: STUTTHOF WAS ONE OF THE FIRST NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS

BUILT OUTSIDE GERMANY.

AROUND 60,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED THERE.

AMONG THE VICTIMS WERE POLES,

JEWS, AND SOVIET PRISONERS OF WAR.

Rueckel: THE STUTTHOF TRIAL IN GERMANY IS, IN A WAY,

NEW AND EXCEPTIONAL BECAUSE THE GERMAN PROSECUTION

HAS INDICTED TWO LOWER-RANK SS GUARDS.

AND THEY ARE SAYING,

"IF YOU BRING SOMEONE IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP

AND YOU KNOW ABOUT THE LIVING CONDITION

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP,

YOU KNOW MORE OR LESS 100% THAT THEY WILL DIE,"

SO BRINGING SOMEONE IN AND GUARDING HIM

IS ATTEMPTED MURDER OR ACCESSORY TO ATTEMPTED MURDER.

IN STUTTHOF, THEY HAD AROUND ABOUT 2,000 SS MEN

GUARDING THIS CAMP.

AND NOW WE HAVE TWO STANDING TRIAL IN THEIR LATER LIFE,

AND THEIR DEFENSE IS, BASICALLY,

"WE FOLLOWED ORDERS,

AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED HERE."

EVERYBODY LOOKED SO HEALTHY AND WELL-NOURISHED.

SO IF YOU, AS A DEFENDANT, WILL SAY,

"I WAS NOT AWARE OF THESE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS,"

THE DEFENDANT MIGHT BE

IN A BETTER POSITION FOR HIS DEFENSE.

♪♪

I CAME OVER TO THE UNITED STATES TO SEE A CLIENT OF MINE.

THE CLIENTS ARE HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS,

AND THEY ARE ALL RELATED TO STUTTHOF.

GUTEN MORGEN.

HOW ARE YOU?

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THESE TRIALS, THEY HAVE A MUCH GREATER MEANING

THAN JUST THE TWO DEFENDANTS.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES,

FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, THAT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU A SHORT UPDATE.

THESE ARE TWO GUARDS.

[ SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY ]

THEY ARE PROBABLY OLD, LIKE ME.

THEY'RE 91, 92, YEAH?

ANN IS ONE OF THE KEY WITNESSES

BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT MANY IN THE AGE OF 95

WHO ARE STILL ALIVE.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE PHOTOS FROM STUTTHOF?

THIS IS A MUSEUM TODAY. BUT EVERYTHING?

YEAH, YEAH. OKAY.

I'LL SHOW YOU.

THIS WAS THE GATE -- THE WAY EVERYBODY WENT THROUGH.

YEAH, YEAH.

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT, GRANDMA?

YEAH. SO...

THEY TOLD US, "YOU'RE JUST A NUMBER."

YOU HAD THE NUMBER, AND YOU'RE JUST A NUMBER.

Rueckel: IN THE PREPARATION OF THE TRIAL,

WE HAVE TO OUTLINE WHAT WAS THE DAILY LIFE

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP,

AND I HOPE IT WILL BECOME OBVIOUS

THAT EACH AND EVERY SS GUARD

WAS AWARE OF THESE EXTRA CRUELTIES.

♪♪

THE PURPOSE OF VISITING STUTTHOF

IS BECAUSE IT'S SO IMPORTANT IN A TRIAL THAT YOU KNOW --

LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY -- THE CRIME SCENE.

AND THE CRIME SCENE WAS STUTTHOF.

THEY WALK ALONG THE PATH.OKAY.

IN HERE, THEY RECEIVE THE NUMBERS.

ONE OF THE OFFICERS CAME AND TOLD,

"FROM THIS MOMENT, YOU ARE NO THE PEOPLE ANY LONGER."

YOU LOST ALL THE RIGHTS.

THE ONLY RIGHT YOU HAD WAS FLY OUT FROM THE CHIMNEY

OF THE CREMATORY.

THAT'S WHAT THEY TOLD THEM?

YES.

PEOPLE WERE STARVING.

THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT THE FOOD ALL THE TIME, ACTUALLY.

THE GERMANS KNEW THAT THE PERSON COULD SURVIVE IN THE CAMP

ABOUT THREE, FOUR MONTHS -- NO LONGER.

Rueckel: NO LONGER. THREE, FOUR MONTHS?

Rueckel: ONE STATEMENT OF ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS,

THAT EVERYBODY LOOKED SO HEALTHY,

THAT CAN'T BE TRUE.

THE GAS CHAMBER.

THEY WENT ON THE ROOF,

AND THEY'D THROW THE ZYKLON B GAS.

HERE? YES.

MY GOD. YES.

THEY SCREAMED AND SHOUTED THERE.

THEY COULDN'T BREATHE.

IT TOOK MINUTES TO KILL THEM.

AT THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS ONE OVEN.

IT BURNT ABOUT FIVE, SIX CORPSES PER ONE HOUR.

BUT IT WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR THE CAMP,

SO THEY BUILT TWO MORE OVENS.

I HAVE TO LEAVE. I HAVE TO LEAVE.

[ EXHALES SHARPLY ] NO, IT'S ENOUGH. YEAH.

THE GUARDS WERE TRACKING THE INMATES ALL THE TIME,

WALKING AROUND THE CAMP, WERE ALSO ON THE WATCHTOWERS.

INCREDIBLE WHAT YOU CAN SEE FROM HERE --

EVERYTHING, EVERY DETAIL.

SO I'M ASKING MYSELF WHY SOMEONE WHO WAS A GUARD CAN SAY,

"WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING THAT WAS DISTURBING TO US."

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT.I DON'T KNOW HOW TO...

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. WE WILL SEE.

YES. THE TRIAL WILL SHOW.

WE'LL SEE.

Rueckel: OUR ARGUMENT IS THEY SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE.

WITHOUT THE GUARDS, YOU CANNOT ORGANIZE A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

IF YOU HAVE NO GUARDS, EVERYBODY CAN LEAVE.

THE DEFENSE "I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS,

THAT'S WHY I DID IT"

IS NOT SATISFYING TO ME AT ALL.

I NEVER KNEW ONE CASE

THAT SOMEONE REFUSED TO SERVE AS AN SS MAN

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP

AND HE WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH.

BUT THEY WOULD HAVE SENT YOU TO FIGHT IN RUSSIA,

WHERE YOUR RISK OF DYING IS A LOT HIGHER.

I THINK BEING AN SS GUARD WAS, IN WARTIME,

AN EASY WAY TO SURVIVE.

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

♪♪

I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO SAY WHAT WOULD I HAVE DONE.

IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE.

[ CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING ]

BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION,

AND YOUR DECISION IS BASED ON LAW,

ON ETHICAL AND PROBABLY ON MORAL STANDARDS,

AND THERE ARE SITUATION IN WHICH ONE HAS TO UNDERSTAND,

YOU CANNOT FOLLOW ALL ORDERS.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.

Lifton: IF THERE'S ANYTHING ONE DERIVES FROM A STUDY OF GENOCIDE

AND MASS KILLING, IT'S THE PRINCIPLE

THAT PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WHAT I CALL SOCIALIZATION TO EVIL

IS A VERY IMPORTANT MATTER

BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A SO-CALLED BORN KILLER.

WE ALL HAVE ELEMENTS OF HATRED

THAT ARE POTENTIALLY VERY STRONG IN US,

AND A PARTICULAR IDEOLOGY THAT'S TOTALISTIC

AND DESTRUCTIVE CAN EVOKE AND INTENSIFY

THAT KIND OF HATRED AND RENDER IT COLLECTIVE.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

Sellers: GENOCIDE OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

IS NOT JUST COMMITTED BY THOSE HIGHER-UPS,

AND THEREFORE WE GET RID OF THE BAD EGGS AT THE TOP.

THE GENOCIDES ARE COMMITTED BY PEOPLE AT ALL LEVELS --

COMPLICITY, AIDING AND ABETTING.

NO MATTER THE OUTCOME OF THE STUTTHOF TRIAL,

PROSECUTING LOW-LEVEL GUARDS REMINDS US

OF AN ESSENTIAL TRUTH.

THEY COULD BE YOUR NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR.

THEY COULD BE YOU.

Sellers: WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THE MOST DEMONIC THINGS

THAT RIGHT NOW NEITHER ONE OF US WOULD BELIEVE WE COULD DO,

BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE CAPACITY TO REALLY REACH DOWN

AND NEVER DO THAT.

I THINK THAT THAT CAPACITY CAN BE AS DEEP.

WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE ON WHAT COMES OUT WITH YOU?

I THINK THAT'S THE INTRIGUING QUESTION.

WHAT MAKES ONE PERSON GO TO THE MONSTROUS SIDE

OF THEIR BEING,

AND THE OTHER, LIVING AMONG MONSTERS, REMAINS HUMAN?

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

A SUBSTANTIAL PROPORTION OF PEOPLE

DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO DO SO LONG AS THEIR PERCEIVE

THAT THE COMMAND COMES FROM A LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY.

Haslam: FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THEY JUST TALK ABOUT THEMILGRAM STUDY,

AS IF THERE WAS ONLY EVER ONE VERSION OF THIS STUDY.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH HIS NOTEBOOKS,

HAVE BEEN THROUGH HIS STUDIES

AND ACTUALLY STARTED TO SORT OF QUESTION

PEOPLE'S WILLINGNESS TO ACTUALLY INFLICT HARM ON OTHER PEOPLE.

Researcher: NOW, LISTEN CAREFULLY TO THE INSTRUCTIONS, PLEASE.

Haslam: REALLY AT THE CORE IS THIS TENSION

BETWEEN, ON THE ONE HAND,

LISTENING TO THE VOICE OF THE EXPERIMENTER SAYING...

WE MUST CONTINUE. GO ON, PLEASE.

...AND ON THE OTHER HAND,

LISTENING TO THE CRIES OF THE LEARNER.

[ SWITCH CLICKS ][ MAN SCREAMS ]

NOW, WHAT MILGRAM DID ACROSS ANOTHER 25 TO 30 VERSIONS

OF THE STUDY WAS MANIPULATE THOSE FORCES,

AND WHAT YOU SEE

IS THAT OBEDIENCE LEVELS CHANGE ACCORDINGLY.

IN OTHER CONDITIONS,

THE LEARNER STOPS MAKING THOSE CRIES IN PAIN,

AND ALL YOU HEAR IS THE VOICE OF THE EXPERIMENTER.

CONTINUE, PLEASE.

100% OF PEOPLE GO RIGHT TO THE END OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

ANOTHER ONE IS, RATHER THAN BEING IN A ROOM OFF TO THE SIDE,

HE BRINGS THE LEARNER INTO THE ROOM.

THE TEACHER HAS TO PRESS THEIR HAND ON THE SHOCK PLATE,

WHERE THEY'RE GETTING THE ELECTRIC SHOCK.

[ MAN SCREAMS ]

WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE VICTIM,

THEN ACTUALLY YOUR WILLINGNESS TO SHOCK HIM DECREASES.

ANOTHER ONE -- THEY HAVE TWO EXPERIMENTERS,

AND THEY ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

WHAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO HIM?

'CAUSE IT ISN'T CLEAR HOW THIS IS MEANINGFUL SCIENTIFICALLY.

ACTUALLY, NONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS

GO THE END OF THE BOARD.

THE DOMINANT RESPONSE ACROSS ALL THE TRIALS,

ABOUT 58% OF PEOPLE REFUSE TO GO TO THE END

OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

SO, ACTUALLY, DISOBEDIENCE IS A KEY PART OF THE NARRATIVE

IN SOME VERSIONS OF THE STUDIES.

THERE'S ONE VARIANT -- IT WAS CONDITION 24.

AND IT INVOLVED THE PARTICIPANTS BRINGING ALONG A FRIEND,

AND THE FRIEND THEN BECAME THE LEARNER,

AND THE PARTICIPANT BECAME THE TEACHER.

AND WHAT YOU FOUND, ACTUALLY, WAS IN THAT CONDITION,

A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE --

I THINK 15% OF PEOPLE --

WENT TO THE END OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

WHETHER THE LEARNER LIKES IT OR NOT, WE MUST GO ON

UNTIL HE HAS LEARNED ALL THE WORD PAIRS CORRECTLY.

WHAT THE EXPERIMENTER IS TRYING TO DO

IS IMPOSE ONE CATEGORICAL STRUCTURE ON THE SITUATION.

IT'S US, THE EXPERIMENTERS, AND THE LEARNER IS THEM.

MY NUMBER ONE CHOICE IS,

I WOULDN'T GO ON IF I THOUGHT HE WAS BEING HARMED.

Haslam: THE PARTICIPANTS SAY, "NO.

THERE'S A DIFFERENT CATEGORICAL STRUCTURE HERE.

THE LEARNER IS NOT THEM. THAT'S US."

Sellers: IN THE LAB, MILGRAM'S DISOBEDIENT SUBJECTS

RESISTED COMMANDS TO HARM OTHERS.

BUT WHAT ABOUT IN THE REAL WORLD?

BE SEATED.

WHEN I WORKED AT THE TRIBUNAL FOR THE 1994 GENOCIDE IN RWANDA,

I WANTED TO KNOW, HOW DID A FEW INDIVIDUALS MANAGE TO RESIST

EVEN AFTER HATE AND VIOLENCE HAD BECOME THE NORM?

Reporter: SINCE APRIL, THE HARD-LINERS OF THE MAJORITY HUTU ETHNIC GROUP

HAVE BEEN HUNTING DOWN MINORITY TUTSIS

AND MODERATE HUTUS EVERYWHERE.

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

AT LEAST 800,000 PEOPLE WERE MURDERED IN JUST 100 DAYS.

HUTUS AND TUTSIS LIVED SIDE BY SIDE

FOR GOD KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS.

BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS A VERY INFLUENTIAL CAMPAIGN

TO PROMOTE THE HATE AGAINST TUTSIS,

PEOPLE CAME TO HATE THEIR NEIGHBORS,

TO GO OUT AND KILL THEM.

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT SHOUTING ]

SO WHEN I WAS ABOUT 12,

I USED TO COME AND WATCH RAYON SPORT TRAINING.

AND IT WAS FROM HERE, LATER, WHERE I DEVELOPED THE INTEREST

OF BECOMING A FOOTBALLER AND A GOALKEEPER.

[ ANNOUNCER SPEAKING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

♪♪

IT WAS AND STILL THE BIGGEST FOOTBALL CLUB IN THIS COUNTRY.

[ CROWD CHEERING, STOMPING ]

THE FANS WERE FROM BOTH SIDES OF RWANDANS --

HUTUS AND TUTSIS.

I WAS ACTUALLY GIVEN A NICKNAME, TOTO,

WHICH MEANS "THE YOUNG ONE,"

BECAUSE I WAS THE ONLY YOUNG BOY AMONG A GROUP OF GROWN-UP MEN.

MY TEAMMATE LONGIN MUNYURANGABO

CAME OVER TO RAYON SPORT AT THE AGE OF 18, 19, I THINK.

I WAS 16, AND WE QUICKLY CONNECTED.

THIS IS A GUY WHO I SPENT SO MUCH TIME WITH PLAYING FOOTBALL.

WE LIVED IN THE SAME HOUSE AT SOME POINT,

TALKING, CHASING GIRLS, HAVING A VERY GOOD TIME.

HE WAS A HUTU, AND I AM A TUTSI.

DURING OUR CONVERSATIONS,

WE USED TO HIT ON THOSE KIND OF THINGS,

BUT IT DID NOT AFFECT THE RELATIONSHIP.

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

THE MOUNTAIN UP THERE, A NUMBER OF REGIME SOLDIERS

WERE CAMPING PRIOR TO THE START OF GENOCIDE.

SOLDIERS WERE GOING HOUSE BY HOUSE, KILLING TUTSIS.

I DECIDED TO GO AND SEEK REFUGE TO MY TEAMMATE LONGIN'S HOUSE.

♪♪

IN THAT HOUSE OF HIS WERE ABOUT 10 PEOPLE

WHO WERE BEING HELPED BY HIM IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

♪♪

WE GENUINELY BELIEVED

THAT WE WERE NOT GOING TO COME OUT ALIVE.

LONGIN KNEW THAT HE WAS SURROUNDED BY DANGER,

BUT HE MADE THAT CHOICE TO HELP ME

WHEN EVERYONE ELSE WAS TURNING AGAINST THEIR FRIENDS,

THEIR NEIGHBORS.

[ INDISTINCT CHANTING ]

HE ACTUALLY WENT AS FAR AS PAYING HIS OWN MONEY

TO RELEASE ME FROM THE MILITIA WHO, AT ONE TIME,

CAUGHT UP WITH ME.

WE STAYED IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD FOR OVER A MONTH.

HE WAS ONLY ONE WHO REMAINED TILL THE LAST MINUTE.

AND YET HE WAS KILLED BECAUSE HE WAS SEEN AS A TRAITOR.

HE WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLE, ORDINARY MAN,

BUT WITH AN INCREDIBLE HEART.

THE ONLY WAY I CAN PAY IT BACK

IS, OBVIOUSLY, TO CHAMPION HIS VALUES.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

WHEN WE WORK WITH THE YOUNGER PEOPLE TODAY,

MY PRIME TARGET IS NOT ABOUT

TURNING THEM INTO TOP FOOTBALL STARS.

IT'S ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE THEM INTO LONGINS...

- [ SHOUTING ] - GOOD!

Murangwa: ...EMPHASIZE HAVING THAT CRITICAL THINKING CAPACITY,

BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT,

YOU ARE AT RISK OF BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF

AND TURNING INTO A TROVE OF HORRIBLE THINGS,

SUCH AS WHAT MANY YOUNG PEOPLE FOUND THEMSELVES IN IN 1994.

♪♪

PRETTY MUCH EVERY SURVIVOR OF GENOCIDE IN THIS COUNTRY

HAS SURVIVED BECAUSE OF THE HELP THEY RECEIVED

FROM THEIR FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS.

HAD THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY

BEHAVED THAT WAY,

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE GENOCIDE WOULD HAVE BEEN

WHAT IT TURNED OUT TO BE.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

YOUNG PEOPLE WE WORK WITH IN THIS COUNTRY

OR ANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD,

THEIR LIVES ARE IMPACTED THANKS TO THE BRAVERY

THAT LONGIN WAS ABLE TO SHOW.

Lifton: AS HUMAN BEINGS, WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF POTENTIAL FOR HARMONY.

WE'VE ALSO GOT POTENTIAL FOR HATRED AND VIOLENCE.

WE ARE WIRED TO HAVE A POTENTIAL FOR EITHER KIND OF EXPRESSION.

WE'RE CAPABLE OF CONFRONTING GENOCIDE,

BUT WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT CAPABLE OF GUARANTEEING

THAT GENOCIDE WILL NEVER AGAIN OCCUR.

Sellers: HOW DO PEOPLE RESIST THE POWER OF HATE

AND MAINTAIN THEIR ABILITY TO THINK CRITICALLY

AND TO ACT WITH COMPASSION?

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

Sellers: WHEN WE TAKE PART IN GENOCIDE,

WE'RE NOT ONLY DEHUMANIZING THE VICTIM, THE OTHER.

WE'RE ALSO DESTROYING OUR HUMANITY.

NOT ALL PEOPLE BECOME EVIL.

SOME PEOPLE NOT ONLY REMAIN HUMAN,

BUT DO EXTRAORDINARY GESTURES, BECOME HUMAN HEROES,

WHERE THE PERSON DID NOT SEE THE OTHER AS THE ENEMY

THAT HAD TO BE DESTROYED.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT WE ALL HAVE THE CAPACITY

TO SEE THE HUMANITY IN SOMEONE ELSE,

AND I THINK THERE IS WHERE WE KEEP HATE AT BAY.

Man: THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS,

HOW CAN WE USE THE TOOLS OF SCIENCE

TO FOSTER PEACE BUILDING?

IF WE MAKE INSIGHTS IN ONE PLACE,

THEY CAN BE APPLICABLE ELSEWHERE.

Man #2: I DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER NATION

WHOSE IDENTITY IS BUILT ON ITS GUILT FOR WHAT IT'S DONE.

Mandela: NOW THIS IS THE TIME TO HEAL THE OLD WOUNDS

AND TO BUILD A NEW SOUTH AFRICA.

Man #3: I WILL GET THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HATE IS.

♪♪