All language subtitles for Why.We.Hate.S01E05.WEBRip.x264-ION10.HI

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--Captions by VITAC--
www.vitac.com

CAPTIONS PAID FOR BY
DISCOVERY COMMUNICATIONS

♪♪

- YOU'RE ALL SET.
- OKAY. THANK YOU.

Woman: OKAY.
EVERYBODY, SETTLE, PLEASE.

Man: MARKER.

Sellers: GENOCIDE, MASS MURDER,
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

I'M ALWAYS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT,

WHY DO PEOPLE PARTICIPATE
IN ACTS THAT ARE HATEFUL,

THAT ARE EVIL, DESTRUCTIVE,
THAT ARE MONSTROUS?

HOW DO WE HUMAN BEINGS ARRIVE
AT THAT PLACE?

AND, AT THE SAME TIME,

HOW DO SOME PEOPLE
MANAGE TO RESIST THE EVIL,

TO PUSH BACK THAT DARKNESS?

All:
♪ WE SHALL OVERCOME ♪

Sellers: IN THE '60s
AND THE '70s, WHEN I GREW UP,

THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT
WAS IN FULL SWING.

THE DINNER TABLE --

THERE WERE CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS,

ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG,
ABOUT JUSTICE.

I WANTED TO BE A LAWYER
EVER SINCE I WAS ABOUT 11 OR 12,

BUT IT WAS ALWAYS LAW
WITH SOCIAL JUSTICE.

I STARTED MY CAREER AS A
PUBLIC DEFENDER IN PHILADELPHIA.

FOR THE PAST 25 YEARS,
I'VE BEEN WORKING

AS AN INTERNATIONAL
CRIMINAL LAWYER...

ON BEHALF OF
THE PROSECUTION...

...WITH WAR CRIMES, GENOCIDE,
OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY...

Reporter: ROHINGYA MUSLIMS WERE
THE MAIN VICTIMS OF SLAUGHTER

IN REMOTE WESTERN MYANMAR.

Sellers: ...WHICH OFTEN ARE BASED
UPON RELENTLESS PERSECUTION...

Reporter #2: THE EXODUS
FROM RWANDA IS SO MASSIVE...

Sellers: ...THAT COULD ENTAIL
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEATHS.

Reporter #3: WE TURN NOW TO SYRIA AND
THE CIVIL WAR THAT HAS LEFT THIS...

Sellers: THESE TYPES OF CRIMES
HAVE OCCURRED THROUGHOUT HISTORY,

EVEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THIS IS THE NATIONAL MEMORIAL
FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE.

MM.

YOU KNOW,
THESE WERE LANDS

OCCUPIED BY NATIVE
AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE,

AND THEY WERE ANNIHILATED.

THEY WERE FORCED
OFF THE LAND.

NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY
HAS A CONSCIOUSNESS

ABOUT THE NATIVE GENOCIDE.

IN FACT, WHEN YOU START USING
THAT WORD,

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE HEART OF GENOCIDE IS,
HOW DO YOU DESTROY A GROUP?

THE WAY THEY DID IT
IN THE UNITED STATES

WAS CREATING A NARRATIVE
OF RACIAL DIFFERENCE.

"THEY'RE SAVAGES."
RIGHT.

THEY WEREN'T "TRULY HUMAN,"

AND WE USED THIS RHETORIC
TO JUSTIFY THAT VIOLENCE.

AND SO THEIR ABUSE,
THEIR DEATH, THEIR DISEASE,

THEIR SUFFERING WASN'T
SOMETHING THAT REGISTERED.

WE DIDN'T FEEL INDECENT
OR INHUMANE

BY THE WAY WE WERE FORCING
PEOPLE OFF THEIR LAND.

AND I THINK THAT
THIS KIND OF NARRATIVE

IS ALSO WHAT ALLOWED THIS NATION
TO BE COMFORTABLE

WITH ENSLAVING
MILLIONS OF AFRICANS.

AND THIS COMMUNITY
IN PARTICULAR

HAS A VERY, VERY INTENSE
SLAVE HISTORY.

ALABAMA, OF COURSE,
WAS AT THE HEART

OF THE DOMESTIC SLAVE TRADE.MM-HMM.

AND BY 1860, TWO-THIRDS OF
THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS COUNTY

WERE ENSLAVED BLACK PEOPLE.

FOR CENTURIES, THE NARRATIVE
OF RACIAL INFERIORITY

WAS USED TO JUSTIFY SLAVERY.

BUT ONCE SLAVERY WAS ABOLISHED,

WHITES NEEDING TO MAINTAIN
RACIAL DOMINANCE

DEVISED A NEW SOCIAL ORDER --
JIM CROW SEGREGATION.

UNDER INTERNATIONAL
CRIMINAL LAW,

WE WOULD CALL THAT APARTHEID.

THERE IS A CAMPAIGN
OF TERROR

TO GET FORMERLY ENSLAVED
BLACK PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE

IN THIS NEW SOCIAL ORDER,

THIS NEW RACIAL ORDER
WHERE THEY'RE DISENFRANCHISED,

THEY'RE FORCED TO WORK
AS SHARECROPPERS

AND TENANT FARMERS.

THEY STILL DON'T OWN
THEIR BODIES, THEIR FAMILIES.

AND THIS BEGINS THIS ERA
OF RACIAL TERROR, LYNCHING.

♪♪

♪♪

THIS MONUMENT GIVES YOU
AN EDUCATION

ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION
OF THIS VIOLENCE,

AND SOMETIMES
IN VERY LARGE-SCALE EVENTS.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE
WERE KILLED

AT THE SAME MOMENT
ON THE SAME DAY.

OH, MY GOD.

WORKERS WOULD BE LYNCHED
IF THEY BEGAN TO SHOW

ANY SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION
AND PROTEST.

SEVEN BLACK PEOPLE LYNCHED
FOR DRINKING

FROM A WHITE MAN'S WELL.

OFTENTIMES, YOU'D HAVE HUNDREDS,
IF NOT THOUSANDS, OF PEOPLE

COMING TO THESE SPACES
TO WATCH --

TO, IF YOU WILL, CELEBRATE
THIS TORTURE.

AND THEY WOULD BRING
SMALL CHILDREN.

RIGHT.
I'VE SEEN THE POSTCARDS.

SEEN THE POSTCARDS AND...
JUST TO TAKE A POSTCARD.

WE HAVE NEWSPAPERS ADVERTISING,
"NEGRO TO BE LYNCHED AT 5:00."

"COME, COME."
"COME."

YOU MAKE ME THINK ABOUT
THIS OTHER CONCEPT

IN INTERNATIONAL
CRIMINAL LAW,

THAT THESE ARE
COLLECTIVE CRIMES.

YES. ABSOLUTELY.

A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY
IS AGAINST

THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.ABSOLUTELY.

AND IT MIGHT TAKE PLACE BY DOING
ONE THING TO ONE PERSON...

THAT'S RIGHT.

...BUT THROUGH LYNCHING
THE INDIVIDUALS,

YOU HAVE TERRORIZED
THE ENTIRE POPULATION.

ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT'S MY LAST NAME.

OH, MY GOODNESS.
SELLERS.

OH, MY GOODNESS.

THAT'S MY LAST NAME.
REALLY?

AND THAT'S THE THING.

PEOPLE LEFT MISSISSIPPI
FOR PLACES LIKE PHILADELPHIA,

FOR PLACES LIKE NEW JERSEY... YES.

...AND DIDN'T TALK ABOUT
WHERE THEY HAD COME FROM.

WOW.

WOW.
YEAH. YEAH.

NO ONE SHOULD THINK,
"WELL, IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD,

THIS CAN'T HAPPEN."
MM-HMM.

IT CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE,

WHETHER IT'S
IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH

OR WHETHER IT'S
IN EASTERN EUROPE

OR WHETHER IT'S
IN SUB-SAHARA AFRICA.

I JUST THINK WE ALL HAVE TO HAVE
A CONSCIOUSNESS

THAT WHEN YOU SEE THIS,
WE HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT.

WE CAN'T ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE
GOVERNED BY FEAR AND ANGER.

THESE ARE NOT CRIMES
OF STARTLED PASSION,

THAT ONE DAY, I'VE DECIDED
THAT I DON'T LIKE MY NEIGHBOR.

[ ALL CHANTING ]

WE GET THERE STEP BY STEP.

THERE WAS INCITEMENT,

PROPAGANDA BEING HAMMERED
INTO YOUR HEAD

THAT THEY ARE NOT US

AND WE HAVE TO PROTECT
OURSELVES.

AND WE NORMALIZE THE HATE,
THE MASSIVE VIOLENCE.

WE SHRUG AND SAY, "WELL,
I GUESS THAT'S THE WAY IT IS."

♪♪

AND WHEN I THINK ABOUT
THE KEY CASES I'VE WORKED ON

OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
OR GENOCIDE,

YOU OFTEN FIND A LEADER...

[ CROWD CHANTING ]

...SOMEONE WHO PERSONIFIES
A TYPE OF IDEOLOGY

FOR THE MASSES

AND THAT CONVINCES PEOPLE
THERE'S AN ENEMY OUT THERE,

AND THIS ENEMY IS
GOING AFTER OUR VALUES,

AND THIS ENEMY
HAS TO BE ELIMINATED.

THE LEADER CAN SAY,
"NO, THIS IS NOT HATE.

THIS IS LOVE. THIS IS SELF-LOVE.
WE WILL REGAIN OUR GLORY."

Reporter: IT BEGAN ON
APRIL THE 17th, 1975,

WHEN POL POT DECLARED
IT WAS DAY ONE OF YEAR ZERO.

Sellers: POL POT WAS THE LEADER
OF THE KHMER ROUGE REVOLUTION

IN CAMBODIA,

A SMALL COUNTRY
IN SOUTHEAST ASIA.

HE'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE
OF THE TYPE OF LEADERSHIP

THAT INCITES A NATIONAL HYSTERIA
OR CRAZINESS.

DECADES OF HUMILIATION UNDER
THE YOKE OF FRENCH COLONIZERS

AND AMERICAN MILITARY INVADERS
WOULD BE ENDED THROUGH A PROGRAM

OF EXTREME SOCIAL ENGINEERING
AND HARD-LINE COMMUNISM.

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

POL POT REMINDED THE CAMBODIANS
OF THEIR GLORIOUS PAST.

ANGKOR WAS A SPLENDID
ANCIENT KHMER KINGDOM.

IT WAS A THRIVING
COSMOPOLITAN CAPITAL,

LIKE PARIS OR LONDON,
IN ITS DAY.

SO POL POT REMINDS PEOPLE

THAT WE WILL REGAIN THIS GLORY
OF THE 12th CENTURY,

AND WITHIN ONE GENERATION,

HE WAS GOING TO MAKE CAMBODIA
GREAT AGAIN.

TO DO THAT,
POL POT AIMED TO ROOT OUT

AND ERADICATE
CORRUPT ELEMENTS OF SOCIETY --

THE CAPITALISTS
AND INTELLECTUALS,

WHO HE SAID EXPLOITED
DECENT CAMBODIANS.

THESE ENEMIES OF THE REVOLUTION
DESERVED NO MERCY.

Reporter:
ALMOST 2 MILLION PEOPLE,

ABOUT A QUARTER
OF THE POPULATION,

DIED DURING THE KHMER ROUGE RULE
FROM 1975 TO 1979.

Sellers:
BUT TO KILL SO MANY PEOPLE,

YOU NEED A TYPE OF MACHINE,
AN ORGANIZATION --

NOT JUST POL POT,

BUT THE PERSONS
WHO SURROUNDED HIM.

Reporter: PRISON BOSS KANG KEK
IEW, KNOWN AS COMRADE DUCH,

ADMITS HE OVERSAW THE KILLING
OF UP TO 15,000 PEOPLE.

THE CHAMBER FINDS
KANG KEK IEW GUILTY.

Reporter: NOW, THE MAN
WHO ORDERED THEIR DEATH

HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY,

EXTERMINATION, TORTURE,
PERSECUTION, AND ENSLAVEMENT.

Reporter #2: IN FACT, THEY SAID,
HIS CRIMES WERE AMONG THE MOST HEINOUS

THAT ANYONE HAD EVER COMMITTED.

THEY CALLED FOR THE HEAVIEST
PENALTY POSSIBLE --

LIFE IMPRISONMENT.

Sellers: YOU CAN HAVE LEGAL
UNDERSTANDING OF THE EVIDENCE, THE FACTS.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS
THAT HUMAN QUESTION OF,

WHY DID THEY DO IT?

HOW COULD THEY DO IT?

Man: MARKER.

Sellers: WHEN YOU INVESTIGATE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMES,

THERE'S ALWAYS THE QUESTION
YOU ASK YOURSELF OF,

"HOW DID THIS PERSON
DO THESE ALLEGED ACTS?"

AND I THINK EVERYONE ASKS
THAT QUESTION.

"WHY DID YOU DO THIS?"

COMRADE DUCH RAN THE NOTORIOUS
TORTURE CENTER S-21.

IT WAS THE INTERNATIONAL COURT'S
FIRST VERDICT,

MORE THAN THREE DECADES AFTER
THE CAMBODIAN ATROCITIES.

♪♪

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ MACHINE-GUN FIRE ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

♪♪

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

♪♪

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

[ SPEAKING FRENCH ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

[ SPEAKING KHMER ]

♪♪

Sellers: MOST OF US BELIEVE
WE WOULD NEVER TAKE PART

IN CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

BUT IN MY WORK
PROSECUTING WAR CRIMES,

I'M ALWAYS SURPRISED BY HOW MANY
PEOPLE DOMAKE THAT CHOICE.

SO, WHAT BRINGS OUT
THE MONSTER WITHIN US?

♪♪

Sellers: FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK
ON INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES,

A KEY REFERENCE POINT
IS THE HOLOCAUST,

WHEN NAZI GERMANY ELIMINATED
6 MILLION JEWS.

AFTER WORLD WAR II,

WHEN THE SCALE AND THE DIMENSION
OF THE HOLOCAUST WAS REVEALED,

QUESTIONS HAD TO BE ASKED.

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

IS IT IN OUR NATURE TO TREAT
EACH OTHER WITH SUCH BRUTALITY?

Reporter: IN JERUSALEM,
THE TRIAL OF ADOLF EICHMANN BEGINS,

REVIVING MEMORIES OF THE NAZI
HORRORS OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

Haslam: ADOLF EICHMANN WAS THE
CHIEF ARCHITECT OF WHAT WAS KNOWN

AS THE FINAL SOLUTION,
THE NAZIS' FINAL SOLUTION,

THEIR PROJECT
TO ELIMINATE THE JEWS.

WHAT PEOPLE EXPECTED
WAS TO SEE A MONSTER,

BUT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY SAW
WAS SOMEONE WHO LOOKED

SORT OF FRIGHTENINGLY NORMAL.

[ SPEAKING GERMAN ]

AND IN MANY WAYS,
THAT WAS MORE SHOCKING,

THE IDEA THAT
THE PERPETRATORS OF EVIL,

THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN
AT THE FOREFRONT

AND DRIVING THE HOLOCAUST,

WERE PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU AND I.

♪♪

THE FIRST THING I EVER REMEMBER
IN A PSYCHOLOGY LECTURE

IS BEING TOLD ABOUT
THE MILGRAM STUDIES.

STANLEY MILGRAM, WHO WAS
A PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR AT YALE,

WAS OF JEWISH ORIGIN.

HIS FAMILY HAD ONLY VERY
NARROWLY ESCAPED NAZI TYRANNY

IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT
IT WAS INCONCEIVABLE

THAT THE GERMAN PEOPLE COULD,
AS A WHOLE, TURN TO TYRANNY,

COULD TURN TO NAZIS AND FASCISM
IN THE WAY THAT THEY HAD.

AND YET, WHAT MILGRAM'S
CONTEMPORARIES HAD OBSERVED

WAS THAT THE WHOLE NATION
WAS, IN A WAY,

SWEPT UP IN THIS TIDE OF HATE.

SO MILGRAM'S KIND OF MOTIVATION
WAS TO UNDERSTAND

TO WHAT EXTENT COULD
ORDINARY PEOPLE BE TURNED

TO PERPETRATORS
OF TYRANNY AND EVIL.

AN EXPERIMENT
IS BEING CONDUCTED

IN THE ELEGANT INTERACTION
LABORATORY AT YALE UNIVERSITY.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE TRIAL
OF ADOLF EICHMANN IN 1961,

STANLEY MILGRAM PUT ADVERTS
IN THE NEW HAVEN NEWSPAPERS

ASKING FOR MEMBERS
OF THE PUBLIC

TO COME TO HIS LABORATORY
AND TAKE PART IN AN EXPERIMENT

ON THE EFFECTS OF PUNISHMENT
ON LEARNING.

THE LEARNER THEN SITS DOWN

AND HAS TO REMEMBER
THESE PAIRS OF WORDS.

BLUE GIRL, NICE DAY,
FAT NECK, AND SO FORTH.

FAT, MAN, LADY,
TUB, NECK.

THE TEACHER READS
THEM OUT WORDS.

[ BUZZER SOUNDS ]

EVERY TIME THE LEARNER
INCORRECTLY PAIR A WORD

WITH THE TARGET WORD,

THE TEACHER'S JOB
IS TO ADMINISTER

A PUNISHMENT TO THEM
IN A SHORT ELECTRIC SHOCK,

STARTING WITH 15 VOLTS,
GOING UP IN 30 15-VOLT INTERVALS

ALL THE WAY TO 450 VOLTS.

[ ELECTRICITY BUZZING ]WRONG. 45 VOLTS.

- 75 VOLTS.
- OW!

ABOUT 90 VOLTS,
THE LEARNER GOES, "OW!"

[ BUZZING ]Man: MMPH!

105.

[BUZZING ]
OW!

AND THEN IT GETS TO 150,

AND HE'S GOING,
"LET ME OUT OF HERE!"

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT
TO KEEP ME HERE!

LET ME OUT!

AND IT ESCALATES THEREAFTER.

[ BUZZING ][ SCREAMS ]

IN FACT, THE WHOLE STRUCTURE
OF THE EXPERIMENT

WAS A VERY CUNNING BIT OF,
IF YOU LIKE, THEATER.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY WERE
REALLYINTERESTED IN

WAS THE WILLINGNESS
OF THE PARTICIPANT

WHO WAS THE TEACHER...

- GO ON, PLEASE.
- ...TO FOLLOW TOXIC INSTRUCTIONS

AND INFLICT PAIN
ON ANOTHER PERSON.

[ BUZZING ]I CAN'T STAND THE PAIN!

THE TRUE PARTICIPANT WAS
ALWAYS GONNA BE A TEACHER.

Researcher: LEARNER,
WOULD YOU STEP OUT HERE WITH ME, PLEASE?

THE LEARNER WAS ACTUALLY
A COLLABORATOR OF MILGRAM'S,

AND IN FACT, THE CRIES OF PAIN
HAD ACTUALLY BEEN PRERECORDED.

Man: LET ME OUT!

CONTINUE, PLEASE.
GO ON.

Haslam: INTERESTINGLY, WHEN
YOU GO THROUGH THE ARCHIVES,

A CRITICAL PIECE
IS WHAT MILGRAM DID

TO MAKE THEM WANT TO DO
WHAT THEY DID.

THE EXPERIMENT REQUIRES
THAT YOU CONTINUE, TEACHER.

ALRIGHT.
THE NEXT ONE -- SLOW.

Haslam: HE SET THIS UP AS A
REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF SCIENCE,

AND YOU'RE MAKING
A GREAT CONTRIBUTION

TO SCIENCE
BY PARTICIPATING IN IT.

IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU
CONTINUE THE EXPERIMENT.

HIM SELLING THAT PROJECT,

THE ENTERPRISE OF SOMETHING
THAT WAS GOOD AND WORTHY...

Man: LET ME OUT! LET ME OUT!
LET ME OUT OF HERE!

Haslam: ...WAS ABSOLUTELY
CRITICAL TO THEIR CONTINUATION.

THE EXPERIMENT REQUIRES
THAT WE GO ON.

THEY SAW HIS GOALS
AS WORTHY AND VALID.

THEY SAW THE SCIENCE
OF THE STUDY AS IMPORTANT.

THEY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY
WERE DOING TO BE A GOOD THING,

NOT A BAD THING.

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

Haslam: 65% OF THE PARTICIPANTS
WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE END

OF THE SHOCK BOARD, PAST
A POINT LABELED "DANGER -- XXX."

THE MILGRAM STUDY SUGGESTED THAT
THE AVERAGE PERSON IN THE STREET

WOULD BE WILLING TO KILL SOMEONE

JUST BECAUSE
IT WAS ASKED OF THEM

IN A PIECE
OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS
A SHOCKING, SURPRISING,

ALARMING,
HUGELY PROVOCATIVE FINDING.

♪♪

THIS IS CASE NUMBER
IT-03-68-T,

THE PROSECUTOR
VERSUS NASER ORIC.

Sellers: AFTER THE HOLOCAUST,
THERE WERE NEW LAWS

PUT IN PLACE, SUCH AS
THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION.

THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS
DRAGAN NIKOLIC.

BUT HAVING THESE INTERNATIONAL
LAWS AND INSTITUTIONS

RAISED THE QUESTION --

WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE
FOR THESE CRIMES?

ONLY THE LEADERS, LIKE HITLER?

OR HIGH-LEVEL MANAGERS, LIKE
ADOLF EICHMANN OR COMRADE DUCH?

WHAT ABOUT THE UNDERLINGS
WHO EXECUTE THEIR ORDERS?

ARE THEY ALSO CULPABLE?

♪♪

Rueckel: WHEN WE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL
IN THE LATE '60s, EARLY '70s,

WE LEARNED THAT, BASICALLY,
THERE WAS ONLY ONE PERPETRATOR,

AND THE PERPETRATOR
WAS ADOLF HITLER

AND SOME OTHER LEADING
NAZI OFFICIALS.

Announcer:
JUDGES FROM BRITAIN, AMERICA,

RUSSIA, AND FRANCE ASSEMBLE
IN NUREMBERG'S COURTHOUSE.

THE TRIBUNAL SITS IN JUDGEMENT
UPON 20 LEADERS

OF THE NAZI PARTY.

Rueckel: GERMANY ACCOMPLISHED A
LOT THROUGH THESE NAZI TRIALS,

BUT THEY DID NOT DO ENOUGH.

PROBABLY LESS THAN 5%
OF THE PERPETRATORS

HAVE EVER STAND TRIAL.

Sellers: CHRISTOPH RUECKEL WAS
AN INTERNATIONAL CORPORATE LAWYER

FOR DECADES,
BUT A FEW YEARS AGO,

HE BEGAN PROSECUTING
NAZI WAR CRIMES.

AND TODAY, HE'S REPRESENTING
JEWISH SURVIVORS

OF THE STUTTHOF
CONCENTRATION CAMP

IN NORTHERN POLAND.

Reporter: STUTTHOF WAS ONE OF THE
FIRST NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS

BUILT OUTSIDE GERMANY.

AROUND 60,000 PEOPLE
WERE KILLED THERE.

AMONG THE VICTIMS WERE POLES,

JEWS, AND SOVIET
PRISONERS OF WAR.

Rueckel: THE STUTTHOF TRIAL
IN GERMANY IS, IN A WAY,

NEW AND EXCEPTIONAL
BECAUSE THE GERMAN PROSECUTION

HAS INDICTED
TWO LOWER-RANK SS GUARDS.

AND THEY ARE SAYING,

"IF YOU BRING SOMEONE
IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP

AND YOU KNOW ABOUT
THE LIVING CONDITION

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP,

YOU KNOW MORE OR LESS 100%
THAT THEY WILL DIE,"

SO BRINGING SOMEONE IN
AND GUARDING HIM

IS ATTEMPTED MURDER OR
ACCESSORY TO ATTEMPTED MURDER.

IN STUTTHOF, THEY HAD AROUND
ABOUT 2,000 SS MEN

GUARDING THIS CAMP.

AND NOW WE HAVE TWO STANDING
TRIAL IN THEIR LATER LIFE,

AND THEIR DEFENSE IS, BASICALLY,

"WE FOLLOWED ORDERS,

AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
WHAT HAPPENED HERE."

EVERYBODY LOOKED SO HEALTHY
AND WELL-NOURISHED.

SO IF YOU,
AS A DEFENDANT, WILL SAY,

"I WAS NOT AWARE
OF THESE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS,"

THE DEFENDANT MIGHT BE

IN A BETTER POSITION
FOR HIS DEFENSE.

♪♪

I CAME OVER TO THE UNITED STATES
TO SEE A CLIENT OF MINE.

THE CLIENTS ARE
HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS,

AND THEY ARE ALL RELATED
TO STUTTHOF.

GUTEN MORGEN.

HOW ARE YOU?

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THESE TRIALS, THEY HAVE
A MUCH GREATER MEANING

THAN JUST THE TWO DEFENDANTS.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR MEMBERS
OF THE ARMED FORCES,

FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS,
THAT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU
A SHORT UPDATE.

THESE ARE TWO GUARDS.

[ SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY ]

THEY ARE PROBABLY OLD,
LIKE ME.

THEY'RE 91, 92, YEAH?

ANN IS ONE
OF THE KEY WITNESSES

BECAUSE WE HAVE
NOT MANY IN THE AGE OF 95

WHO ARE STILL ALIVE.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE
PHOTOS FROM STUTTHOF?

THIS IS A MUSEUM TODAY.
BUT EVERYTHING?

YEAH, YEAH.
OKAY.

I'LL SHOW YOU.

THIS WAS THE GATE -- THE WAY
EVERYBODY WENT THROUGH.

YEAH, YEAH.

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT,
GRANDMA?

YEAH. SO...

THEY TOLD US,
"YOU'RE JUST A NUMBER."

YOU HAD THE NUMBER,
AND YOU'RE JUST A NUMBER.

Rueckel: IN THE PREPARATION OF
THE TRIAL,

WE HAVE TO OUTLINE WHAT WAS
THE DAILY LIFE

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP,

AND I HOPE
IT WILL BECOME OBVIOUS

THAT EACH AND EVERY SS GUARD

WAS AWARE
OF THESE EXTRA CRUELTIES.

♪♪

THE PURPOSE OF VISITING STUTTHOF

IS BECAUSE IT'S SO IMPORTANT
IN A TRIAL THAT YOU KNOW --

LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY --
THE CRIME SCENE.

AND THE CRIME SCENE
WAS STUTTHOF.

THEY WALK ALONG THE PATH.OKAY.

IN HERE, THEY RECEIVE
THE NUMBERS.

ONE OF THE OFFICERS CAME
AND TOLD,

"FROM THIS MOMENT, YOU ARE
NO THE PEOPLE ANY LONGER."

YOU LOST ALL THE RIGHTS.

THE ONLY RIGHT YOU HAD WAS
FLY OUT FROM THE CHIMNEY

OF THE CREMATORY.

THAT'S WHAT THEY
TOLD THEM?

YES.

PEOPLE WERE STARVING.

THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT
THE FOOD ALL THE TIME, ACTUALLY.

THE GERMANS KNEW THAT THE PERSON
COULD SURVIVE IN THE CAMP

ABOUT THREE, FOUR MONTHS --
NO LONGER.

Rueckel: NO LONGER.
THREE, FOUR MONTHS?

Rueckel: ONE STATEMENT
OF ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS,

THAT EVERYBODY LOOKED
SO HEALTHY,

THAT CAN'T BE TRUE.

THE GAS CHAMBER.

THEY WENT ON THE ROOF,

AND THEY'D THROW
THE ZYKLON B GAS.

HERE?
YES.

MY GOD.
YES.

THEY SCREAMED
AND SHOUTED THERE.

THEY COULDN'T BREATHE.

IT TOOK MINUTES
TO KILL THEM.

AT THE BEGINNING,
THERE WAS ONE OVEN.

IT BURNT ABOUT FIVE, SIX CORPSES
PER ONE HOUR.

BUT IT WAS NOT ENOUGH
FOR THE CAMP,

SO THEY BUILT
TWO MORE OVENS.

I HAVE TO LEAVE.
I HAVE TO LEAVE.

[ EXHALES SHARPLY ]
NO, IT'S ENOUGH. YEAH.

THE GUARDS WERE TRACKING
THE INMATES ALL THE TIME,

WALKING AROUND THE CAMP,
WERE ALSO ON THE WATCHTOWERS.

INCREDIBLE WHAT YOU CAN SEE
FROM HERE --

EVERYTHING,
EVERY DETAIL.

SO I'M ASKING MYSELF WHY SOMEONE
WHO WAS A GUARD CAN SAY,

"WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING
THAT WAS DISTURBING TO US."

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT.I DON'T KNOW HOW TO...

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT.
WE WILL SEE.

YES.
THE TRIAL WILL SHOW.

WE'LL SEE.

Rueckel: OUR ARGUMENT IS
THEY SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE.

WITHOUT THE GUARDS, YOU CANNOT
ORGANIZE A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

IF YOU HAVE NO GUARDS,
EVERYBODY CAN LEAVE.

THE DEFENSE
"I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS,

THAT'S WHY I DID IT"

IS NOT SATISFYING TO ME
AT ALL.

I NEVER KNEW ONE CASE

THAT SOMEONE REFUSED TO SERVE
AS AN SS MAN

IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP

AND HE WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH.

BUT THEY WOULD HAVE SENT YOU
TO FIGHT IN RUSSIA,

WHERE YOUR RISK OF DYING
IS A LOT HIGHER.

I THINK BEING AN SS GUARD WAS,
IN WARTIME,

AN EASY WAY TO SURVIVE.

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

♪♪

I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO SAY
WHAT WOULD I HAVE DONE.

IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE.

[ CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING ]

BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION,

AND YOUR DECISION
IS BASED ON LAW,

ON ETHICAL AND PROBABLY
ON MORAL STANDARDS,

AND THERE ARE SITUATION IN WHICH
ONE HAS TO UNDERSTAND,

YOU CANNOT FOLLOW ALL ORDERS.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE
YOUR OWN DECISION.

Lifton: IF THERE'S ANYTHING ONE
DERIVES FROM A STUDY OF GENOCIDE

AND MASS KILLING,
IT'S THE PRINCIPLE

THAT PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE
FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WHAT
I CALL SOCIALIZATION TO EVIL

IS A VERY IMPORTANT MATTER

BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE
A SO-CALLED BORN KILLER.

WE ALL HAVE ELEMENTS OF HATRED

THAT ARE POTENTIALLY
VERY STRONG IN US,

AND A PARTICULAR IDEOLOGY
THAT'S TOTALISTIC

AND DESTRUCTIVE
CAN EVOKE AND INTENSIFY

THAT KIND OF HATRED
AND RENDER IT COLLECTIVE.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

Sellers: GENOCIDE
OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

IS NOT JUST COMMITTED
BY THOSE HIGHER-UPS,

AND THEREFORE WE GET RID
OF THE BAD EGGS AT THE TOP.

THE GENOCIDES ARE COMMITTED
BY PEOPLE AT ALL LEVELS --

COMPLICITY,
AIDING AND ABETTING.

NO MATTER THE OUTCOME
OF THE STUTTHOF TRIAL,

PROSECUTING LOW-LEVEL GUARDS
REMINDS US

OF AN ESSENTIAL TRUTH.

THEY COULD BE
YOUR NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR.

THEY COULD BE YOU.

Sellers: WE HAVE THE CAPACITY
TO DO THE MOST DEMONIC THINGS

THAT RIGHT NOW NEITHER ONE OF US
WOULD BELIEVE WE COULD DO,

BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE CAPACITY
TO REALLY REACH DOWN

AND NEVER DO THAT.

I THINK THAT THAT CAPACITY
CAN BE AS DEEP.

WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
ON WHAT COMES OUT WITH YOU?

I THINK THAT'S
THE INTRIGUING QUESTION.

WHAT MAKES ONE PERSON GO
TO THE MONSTROUS SIDE

OF THEIR BEING,

AND THE OTHER, LIVING AMONG
MONSTERS, REMAINS HUMAN?

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

A SUBSTANTIAL PROPORTION
OF PEOPLE

DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO DO
SO LONG AS THEIR PERCEIVE

THAT THE COMMAND COMES
FROM A LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY.

Haslam: FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE,
THEY JUST TALK ABOUT THEMILGRAM STUDY,

AS IF THERE WAS ONLY EVER
ONE VERSION OF THIS STUDY.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE
HAVE BEEN THROUGH HIS NOTEBOOKS,

HAVE BEEN THROUGH HIS STUDIES

AND ACTUALLY STARTED
TO SORT OF QUESTION

PEOPLE'S WILLINGNESS TO ACTUALLY
INFLICT HARM ON OTHER PEOPLE.

Researcher: NOW, LISTEN CAREFULLY
TO THE INSTRUCTIONS, PLEASE.

Haslam: REALLY AT THE CORE
IS THIS TENSION

BETWEEN, ON THE ONE HAND,

LISTENING TO THE VOICE
OF THE EXPERIMENTER SAYING...

WE MUST CONTINUE.
GO ON, PLEASE.

...AND ON THE OTHER HAND,

LISTENING TO THE CRIES
OF THE LEARNER.

[ SWITCH CLICKS ][ MAN SCREAMS ]

NOW, WHAT MILGRAM DID ACROSS
ANOTHER 25 TO 30 VERSIONS

OF THE STUDY
WAS MANIPULATE THOSE FORCES,

AND WHAT YOU SEE

IS THAT OBEDIENCE LEVELS
CHANGE ACCORDINGLY.

IN OTHER CONDITIONS,

THE LEARNER STOPS MAKING
THOSE CRIES IN PAIN,

AND ALL YOU HEAR IS THE VOICE
OF THE EXPERIMENTER.

CONTINUE, PLEASE.

100% OF PEOPLE GO RIGHT TO
THE END OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

ANOTHER ONE IS, RATHER THAN
BEING IN A ROOM OFF TO THE SIDE,

HE BRINGS THE LEARNER
INTO THE ROOM.

THE TEACHER HAS TO PRESS
THEIR HAND ON THE SHOCK PLATE,

WHERE THEY'RE GETTING
THE ELECTRIC SHOCK.

[ MAN SCREAMS ]

WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE VICTIM,

THEN ACTUALLY YOUR WILLINGNESS
TO SHOCK HIM DECREASES.

ANOTHER ONE -- THEY HAVE
TWO EXPERIMENTERS,

AND THEY ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER
ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

WHAT IF SOMETHING
HAPPENS TO HIM?

'CAUSE IT ISN'T CLEAR HOW THIS
IS MEANINGFUL SCIENTIFICALLY.

ACTUALLY,
NONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS

GO THE END OF THE BOARD.

THE DOMINANT RESPONSE
ACROSS ALL THE TRIALS,

ABOUT 58% OF PEOPLE
REFUSE TO GO TO THE END

OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

SO, ACTUALLY, DISOBEDIENCE IS
A KEY PART OF THE NARRATIVE

IN SOME VERSIONS OF THE STUDIES.

THERE'S ONE VARIANT --
IT WAS CONDITION 24.

AND IT INVOLVED THE PARTICIPANTS
BRINGING ALONG A FRIEND,

AND THE FRIEND
THEN BECAME THE LEARNER,

AND THE PARTICIPANT
BECAME THE TEACHER.

AND WHAT YOU FOUND, ACTUALLY,
WAS IN THAT CONDITION,

A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE
OF PEOPLE --

I THINK 15% OF PEOPLE --

WENT TO THE END
OF THE SHOCK BOARD.

WHETHER THE LEARNER LIKES IT
OR NOT, WE MUST GO ON

UNTIL HE HAS LEARNED
ALL THE WORD PAIRS CORRECTLY.

WHAT THE EXPERIMENTER
IS TRYING TO DO

IS IMPOSE ONE CATEGORICAL
STRUCTURE ON THE SITUATION.

IT'S US, THE EXPERIMENTERS,
AND THE LEARNER IS THEM.

MY NUMBER ONE CHOICE IS,

I WOULDN'T GO ON IF I THOUGHT
HE WAS BEING HARMED.

Haslam:
THE PARTICIPANTS SAY, "NO.

THERE'S A DIFFERENT
CATEGORICAL STRUCTURE HERE.

THE LEARNER IS NOT THEM.
THAT'S US."

Sellers: IN THE LAB,
MILGRAM'S DISOBEDIENT SUBJECTS

RESISTED COMMANDS
TO HARM OTHERS.

BUT WHAT ABOUT
IN THE REAL WORLD?

BE SEATED.

WHEN I WORKED AT THE TRIBUNAL
FOR THE 1994 GENOCIDE IN RWANDA,

I WANTED TO KNOW, HOW DID A
FEW INDIVIDUALS MANAGE TO RESIST

EVEN AFTER HATE AND VIOLENCE
HAD BECOME THE NORM?

Reporter: SINCE APRIL, THE HARD-LINERS
OF THE MAJORITY HUTU ETHNIC GROUP

HAVE BEEN HUNTING DOWN
MINORITY TUTSIS

AND MODERATE HUTUS EVERYWHERE.

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

AT LEAST 800,000 PEOPLE
WERE MURDERED IN JUST 100 DAYS.

HUTUS AND TUTSIS LIVED
SIDE BY SIDE

FOR GOD KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS.

BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS
A VERY INFLUENTIAL CAMPAIGN

TO PROMOTE THE HATE
AGAINST TUTSIS,

PEOPLE CAME TO HATE
THEIR NEIGHBORS,

TO GO OUT AND KILL THEM.

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT SHOUTING ]

SO WHEN I WAS ABOUT 12,

I USED TO COME AND WATCH
RAYON SPORT TRAINING.

AND IT WAS FROM HERE, LATER,
WHERE I DEVELOPED THE INTEREST

OF BECOMING A FOOTBALLER
AND A GOALKEEPER.

[ ANNOUNCER SPEAKING
IN NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

♪♪

IT WAS AND STILL THE BIGGEST
FOOTBALL CLUB IN THIS COUNTRY.

[ CROWD CHEERING, STOMPING ]

THE FANS WERE FROM BOTH SIDES
OF RWANDANS --

HUTUS AND TUTSIS.

I WAS ACTUALLY GIVEN
A NICKNAME, TOTO,

WHICH MEANS "THE YOUNG ONE,"

BECAUSE I WAS THE ONLY YOUNG BOY
AMONG A GROUP OF GROWN-UP MEN.

MY TEAMMATE
LONGIN MUNYURANGABO

CAME OVER TO RAYON SPORT
AT THE AGE OF 18, 19, I THINK.

I WAS 16,
AND WE QUICKLY CONNECTED.

THIS IS A GUY WHO I SPENT SO
MUCH TIME WITH PLAYING FOOTBALL.

WE LIVED IN THE SAME HOUSE
AT SOME POINT,

TALKING, CHASING GIRLS,
HAVING A VERY GOOD TIME.

HE WAS A HUTU, AND I AM A TUTSI.

DURING OUR CONVERSATIONS,

WE USED TO HIT ON
THOSE KIND OF THINGS,

BUT IT DID NOT AFFECT
THE RELATIONSHIP.

♪♪

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ]

THE MOUNTAIN UP THERE,
A NUMBER OF REGIME SOLDIERS

WERE CAMPING PRIOR
TO THE START OF GENOCIDE.

SOLDIERS WERE GOING
HOUSE BY HOUSE, KILLING TUTSIS.

I DECIDED TO GO AND SEEK REFUGE
TO MY TEAMMATE LONGIN'S HOUSE.

♪♪

IN THAT HOUSE OF HIS
WERE ABOUT 10 PEOPLE

WHO WERE BEING HELPED BY HIM
IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

♪♪

WE GENUINELY BELIEVED

THAT WE WERE NOT
GOING TO COME OUT ALIVE.

LONGIN KNEW THAT HE WAS
SURROUNDED BY DANGER,

BUT HE MADE THAT CHOICE
TO HELP ME

WHEN EVERYONE ELSE WAS TURNING
AGAINST THEIR FRIENDS,

THEIR NEIGHBORS.

[ INDISTINCT CHANTING ]

HE ACTUALLY WENT AS FAR
AS PAYING HIS OWN MONEY

TO RELEASE ME FROM THE MILITIA
WHO, AT ONE TIME,

CAUGHT UP WITH ME.

WE STAYED IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD
FOR OVER A MONTH.

HE WAS ONLY ONE WHO REMAINED
TILL THE LAST MINUTE.

AND YET HE WAS KILLED BECAUSE
HE WAS SEEN AS A TRAITOR.

HE WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLE,
ORDINARY MAN,

BUT WITH AN INCREDIBLE HEART.

THE ONLY WAY I CAN PAY IT BACK

IS, OBVIOUSLY,
TO CHAMPION HIS VALUES.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

WHEN WE WORK WITH
THE YOUNGER PEOPLE TODAY,

MY PRIME TARGET IS NOT ABOUT

TURNING THEM INTO
TOP FOOTBALL STARS.

IT'S ACTUALLY TRYING TO
MAKE THEM INTO LONGINS...

- [ SHOUTING ]
- GOOD!

Murangwa: ...EMPHASIZE HAVING
THAT CRITICAL THINKING CAPACITY,

BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT,

YOU ARE AT RISK
OF BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF

AND TURNING INTO A TROVE
OF HORRIBLE THINGS,

SUCH AS WHAT MANY YOUNG PEOPLE
FOUND THEMSELVES IN IN 1994.

♪♪

PRETTY MUCH EVERY SURVIVOR
OF GENOCIDE IN THIS COUNTRY

HAS SURVIVED BECAUSE OF THE HELP
THEY RECEIVED

FROM THEIR FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS.

HAD THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE
IN THIS COUNTRY

BEHAVED THAT WAY,

THERE IS NO WAY THAT
THE GENOCIDE WOULD HAVE BEEN

WHAT IT TURNED OUT TO BE.

[ SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE ]

YOUNG PEOPLE WE WORK WITH
IN THIS COUNTRY

OR ANY OTHER PARTS
OF THE WORLD,

THEIR LIVES ARE IMPACTED
THANKS TO THE BRAVERY

THAT LONGIN WAS ABLE TO SHOW.

Lifton: AS HUMAN BEINGS,
WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF POTENTIAL FOR HARMONY.

WE'VE ALSO GOT POTENTIAL
FOR HATRED AND VIOLENCE.

WE ARE WIRED TO HAVE A POTENTIAL
FOR EITHER KIND OF EXPRESSION.

WE'RE CAPABLE OF
CONFRONTING GENOCIDE,

BUT WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT CAPABLE
OF GUARANTEEING

THAT GENOCIDE
WILL NEVER AGAIN OCCUR.

Sellers: HOW DO PEOPLE RESIST
THE POWER OF HATE

AND MAINTAIN THEIR ABILITY
TO THINK CRITICALLY

AND TO ACT WITH COMPASSION?

450 VOLTS.[ BUZZING ]

Sellers:
WHEN WE TAKE PART IN GENOCIDE,

WE'RE NOT ONLY DEHUMANIZING
THE VICTIM, THE OTHER.

WE'RE ALSO DESTROYING
OUR HUMANITY.

NOT ALL PEOPLE BECOME EVIL.

SOME PEOPLE NOT ONLY
REMAIN HUMAN,

BUT DO EXTRAORDINARY GESTURES,
BECOME HUMAN HEROES,

WHERE THE PERSON DID NOT SEE
THE OTHER AS THE ENEMY

THAT HAD TO BE DESTROYED.

I TRULY BELIEVE
THAT WE ALL HAVE THE CAPACITY

TO SEE THE HUMANITY
IN SOMEONE ELSE,

AND I THINK THERE IS WHERE
WE KEEP HATE AT BAY.

Man:
THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS,

HOW CAN WE USE
THE TOOLS OF SCIENCE

TO FOSTER PEACE BUILDING?

IF WE MAKE INSIGHTS
IN ONE PLACE,

THEY CAN BE APPLICABLE
ELSEWHERE.

Man #2: I DON'T KNOW
ANY OTHER NATION

WHOSE IDENTITY IS BUILT
ON ITS GUILT FOR WHAT IT'S DONE.

Mandela: NOW THIS IS THE TIME
TO HEAL THE OLD WOUNDS

AND TO BUILD
A NEW SOUTH AFRICA.

Man #3: I WILL GET THEM
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HATE IS.

♪♪