Original subtitles

--Captions by VITAC-- www.vitac.com

CAPTIONS PAID FOR BY DISCOVERY COMMUNICATIONS

EVERYBODY SETTLED?

IT'S AMAZING TO THINK THAT, IN 2018,

WE'RE SEEING SUCH AN UPSURGE OF EXTREMISM AND IDEOLOGIES

THAT I THINK WE THOUGHT PERHAPS WERE OF THE PAST,

THE "NEVER AGAIN."

HI.

SO YOU SEE THESE DIVISIONS.

YOU SEE THE RISE IN DEEP POLARIZATION,

THE MAINSTREAMING OF EXTREMISM

IN WAYS THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED.

I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN LONDON OF VERY MIXED BACKGROUND.

MY FATHER WAS YUGOSLAV.

I WATCHED, AS A VERY YOUNG GIRL, YUGOSLAVIA,

A PLACE THAT I KNEW INTIMATELY --

I'VE FAMILY, FRIENDS,

I SPENT EVERY HOLIDAY AS A CHILD THERE --

REALLY RIP ITSELF TO GENOCIDAL SHREDS.

AND IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY TO WATCH THAT TRANSFORMATION.

18 MONTHS, AND WE WERE IN A BLOODBATH.

AND IT WAS OVERWHELMING TO ME.

I GOT RADICALIZED BY THAT EXPERIENCE.

I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO SOMETHING.

SO, THE INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC DIALOGUE

IS AN INCUBATOR OF RESPONSES TO THIS RISING CHALLENGE

GLOBALLY OF EXTREMISM, OF HATE, OF POLARIZATION.

WHO'S IN THE SITUATION ROOM?

AND WHO NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE?

AND SINCE 2006, WE'VE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS

OF LOOKING AT WHAT COULD POSSIBLY WORK TO UNDERSTAND,

IN-DEPTH, THE PROCESSES OF RADICALIZATION,

BUT ALSO OF HOW PEOPLE COME OUT OF THESE MOVEMENTS.

WHAT YOU'RE KNOWN FOR IN PHILADELPHIA --

EVERYONE'S KNOWN FROM WHAT STREET YOU GREW UP ON.

YOU'RE INHERENTLY BORN INTO YOUR GANG OF YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, SO...

AND IT'S ALWAYS THAT WAY. IT'S US AND THEM.

HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED HERE FOR?

HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN HERE?

PERSONALLY? YEAH.

58 YEARS. IN THIS HOUSE?

YEAH.OKAY, SO, YEAH, I USED TO BE

ONE OF THE LITTLE KIDS ON THE STREET BACK --

I REMEMBER YOUR VOICE OR SOMETHING THERE.

YEAH, THOMASINE WAS MY MOM. THOMASINE AND JOHN.

OH, THOMASINE, YEAH.

I REMEMBER YOU WERE BAD, TOO, WHEN YOU WERE LITTLE.

THIS IS THE HOUSE I GREW UP IN OVER 30 YEARS AGO.

IT DIDN'T LOOK THIS NICE.

IT WASN'T THAT BAD, BUT IT WAS...

IT DIDN'T LOOK THIS NICE.

MY STEPFATHER MOVED IN WHEN I WAS 9,

AND I LIVED THERE WITH HIM FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS.

AND THE BEATINGS AND STUFF, THEY STARTED KIND OF RIGHT AWAY --

I MEAN, PROBABLY WITHIN THE FIRST WEEK

OF HIM MOVING IN WITH ME.

I WASN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO TALK AT THE DINNER TABLE.

DUMBASSES LIKE ME WOULD RUIN HIS APPETITE, HE'D SAY.

I HAD A BULLY LIVING IN MY HOME.

I HATED MY STEPFATHER.

I MEAN, IT WAS PROBABLY MY FIRST HATRED IN THE WORLD,

WAS TOWARDS THIS MAN.

MY STEPFATHER KICKED ME OUT,

SO I HAD TO GO MOVE WITH MY DAD, SO I WENT TO AN ALL-BLACK SCHOOL

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCHOOL YEAR.

I KNEW EVERY DAY -- EVERYDAY --

SOMEBODY WAS GONNA SAY SOMETHING TO ME,

AND IF I'D DARE TO SAY ANYTHING BACK,

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT THEY WANTED, YOU KNOW,

'CAUSE THEN THEY HAVE JUSTIFICATION

THAT I STARTED THE FIGHT OR SOMETHING STUPID.

AND THEY ALWAYS USED MY RACE AS AMMUNITION

TO SAY SOMETHING TO ME, YOU KNOW?

AND I THINK THESE KIDS, TO ME,

WERE REPRESENTING THE WHOLE COMMUNITY.

AND IT WASN'T THE WHOLE COMMUNITY JUMPING ME.

IT WAS JUST THESE KIDS, BUT IT MADE THAT DIVIDE

BETWEEN US AND THEM MORE SOLID.

I MEAN, HATRED WAS JUST BUILDING UP IN ME, PERIOD.

THAT SUMMER... THAT SUMMER I GOT TO GO

UP TO LANCASTER, PENNSYLVANIA.

MY COUSIN WAS UP THERE, AND I FOUND MY SAFE PLACE.

SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

SO, WHEN I GO UP TO MY COUSIN'S HOUSE IN LANCASTER,

HE HAD, LIKE, NEWSPAPER ARTICLES ABOUT NEO-NAZIS ON HIS WALL,

AND HE HAD, LIKE, A PICTURE OF HITLER,

AND HE HAD, LIKE, A SWASTIKA FLAG.

AND SO, HE WOULD HAVE ALL THESE OTHER BIG, BAD SKINHEAD GUYS

COME OVER HIS HOUSE EVERY NIGHT,

AND SO THEY WOULD SIT AROUND AND TALK ABOUT

HOW THE JEWS SECRETLY RUN THE FEDERAL RESERVE

AND THEY SIPHON OFF MONEY OFF THE COUNTRY,

AND THE JEWS ARE THE SEED OF SATAN,

AND YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, THE VICTIM OF THAT RIGHT NOW.

IF SOMEONE SAYS I'M A VICTIM OF SOMETHING,

I'M ALREADY LIKE, "I FEEL LIKE I'M A VICTIM.

MAN, I'M GETTING THE **** KNOCKED OUT OF MY EVERYWHERE."

AND I REMEMBER I JUST ENJOYED EVERY NIGHT

WHEN THEY ALL SHOWED UP 'CAUSE I KNEW

THAT SOMEONE WAS GONNA EVENTUALLY ASK ME ABOUT ME.

SOME GUY SLAPPED ME IN MY PUNK-ROCK HAIRCUT AND SAID,

"WHEN YOU GONNA SHAVE THIS **** OFF YOUR HEAD, MAN?"

SO THEY ALL TOOK ME OUT ON THE BACK PORCH THAT NIGHT

AND SHAVED MY HEAD.

AND THAT WAS IT -- I WAS IN.

THERE IS OFTEN TRAUMA IN THESE INDIVIDUAL CASES

OF RADICALIZATION EARLY ON.

LIKE FRANK MEEINK -- IDENTITY CRISES,

A SENSE OF A LACK OF BELONGING, "WHO AM I? WHERE DO I BELONG?"

A DESPERATE NEED FOR BELONGING TO SOMETHING.

AND I THINK WE SEE, FROM THE OUTSIDE,

EXTREMIST GROUPS AS MANIFESTLY VIOLENT AND ANGRY,

BUT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY OFFER THEIR MEMBERS

IS LOVE AND SUPPORT AND FAMILY AND BELONGING AND CARE.

SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

AND THE SKINHEADS, THEY WOULD ALWAYS SAY TO ME,

"FRANK, GOD'S TELLING YOU THE TRUTH NOW.

HE'S JUST USING ME AS A TOOL TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO YOU.

HE NEEDS YOU. HE NEEDS MORE SOLDIERS.

HE NEEDS MORE ANGELS TO RUIN SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

AND AMERICA'S SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT TASK ON?"

I'M A TEAM GUY. I'M A SPORTS GUY.

I'M GOING, "THIS IS MY TEAM NOW.

AND GOD CHOSE ME?

LIKE, I'M A WELFARE KID FROM PHILADELPHIA.

HE CHOSE -- HE WANTS ME ON THIS TEAM?

HE WANTS TO GIVE IT ALL? I'LL GIVE HIM MY ALL."

AND I DID, FOR YEARS.

SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

I GET INTO THIS FULL-HEARTEDLY, 100%.

I BELIEVE EVERYTHING ABOUT IT.

I GO ON TO GO DO SOME TV SHOWS FOR THE MOVEMENT...

GO ON OVER AND TALK TO HIM BESIDE YOU.

YOU'VE BEEN SAYING THIS TO ME AT EVERY COMMERCIAL.

DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SCARED JUST BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE

WHEN -- NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT?

NO, I DON'T... I AIN'T SCARED.

I AIN'T NOTHING... I AIN'T AFRAID OF ANYBODY ELSE.

I'M JUST... I'M SO PROUD OF MY RACE, AND I WOULD...

LIKE I SAID, I WOULD LIVE OR DIE FOR MY RACE

IF ANYTHING EVER CAME DOWN TO IT.

I COMMIT CRIME CONSISTENTLY.

I'M SELLING GUNS.

AND I KIDNAP ONE OF OUR RIVALS.

I HAD HEARD THAT HE WAS KIND OF TRYING TO STEAL

SOME OF MY NEW RECRUITS, AND I JUST COULDN'T HAVE THAT.

SO I CALLED HIM UP AROUND CHRISTMASTIME,

SAID WE WERE HAVING A CHRISTMAS PARTY AND THAT IT'S NEUTRAL,

WE'RE ALL COOL.

AND HE CAME OVER, AND THERE WAS NO PARTY.

IT WAS JUST A COUPLE OF US WAITING FOR HIM.

AIN'T NOBODY. THEY'RE GONE. THEY'RE GONE.

I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD EVER GO TO THE COPS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S PART OF THE GAME.

JANUARY OR FEBRUARY, THEY ARRESTED ME

AND CHARGED ME AS AN ADULT FOR AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING --

17 YEARS OLD.

PLEA BARGAIN WAS, I BELIEVE, THREE TO FIVE YEARS,

BUT IT WAS A THREE-YEAR DEFINITE.

GOOD EVENING.

FRANK'S STORY, IT'S A STORY OF TRANSFORMATION.

IT'S A STORY OF REDEMPTION.

I GOT OUT OF PRISON. I AIN'T GOT A JOB.

NO ONE'S HIRING A DUDE WITH A SWASTIKA,

AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING ON HIS RECORD.

I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT A HIREE-TYPE PERSON.

AND A BUDDY OF MINE CAME TO ME AND SAID HE CAN GET ME A JOB

DOING ANTIQUE FURNITURE AT AN ANTIQUES SHOW.

I SAID, "DEFINITELY, I'LL TAKE THE JOB."

HE GOES, "THE DUDE'S A JEW THAT RUNS THE COMPANY.

YOU STILL WANT THE JOB?"

AND I WAS LIKE, "YEAH. IF I DON'T GOT TO TALK TO HIM

AND I COULD JUST WORK, ABSOLUTELY."

AND HE GOES, "OH, I TOLD KEITH ALL ABOUT YOU,

SAID YOU'RE A NEO-NAZI DUDE, JUST GOT OUT OF THE JOINT."

HE GOES, "HE DOESN'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS WHAT YOU BELIEVE --

JUST DON'T BREAK HIS FURNITURE." HE JUST WAS ONE OF THOSE GUYS,

AND HE JUST FIT EVERY STEREOTYPE.

AND SO, END OF THE WEEKEND COMES,

AND I THINK HE'S NOT GONNA PAY ME MY MONEY.

WHEN HE CAME UP TO ME,

I'D SET OUT THESE LAND MINES IN THE CONVERSATION,

HOPING HE'D STEP ON THEM AND SO WE COULD FIGHT.

I KNEW HE WAS NOT GONNA PAY ME MY MONEY --

HE WAS GOING TO "JEW" ME.

AND HE COMES OUT AND GOES, "I OWE YOU MONEY, DON'T I?"

AND I WAS LIKE, "YES, YOU DO. YES, YOU DO.

YOU OWE ME SOME MONEY." AND HE'S LIKE, "HOW MUCH?"

I SAID, "$300 -- HUNDRED BUCKS A DAY," OR WHATEVER.

HE'S LIKE, "OH, THAT'S RIGHT."

"YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT,"

YOU KNOW, LIKE, JUST BEING A JERK.

AND HE PULLS OUT THIS BIG WAD OF MONEY THAT HE MADE,

AND HE'S LIKE, "HERE'S ONE, TWO, HERE'S THREE."

HE'S LIKE, "HOLD ON. HERE'S AN EXTRA HUNDRED BUCKS.

YOU'RE A REALLY GOOD WORKER."

SO, HE GOES TO DROP ME OFF,

AND HE SAYS, "WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING?"

AND I SAID, "I DON'T DO ANYTHING.

I HAVE A SWASTIKA ON MY NECK."

AND HE GOES, "WELL, WHY DON'T YOU COME WORK FOR ME?"

AND HE GAVE ME A FULL-TIME JOB.

I'M STILL A NEO-NAZI.

I STILL WEAR MY NAZI BOOTS EVERY DAY AND EVERYTHING.

AND, FINALLY, ONE DAY, I BROKE SOMETHING.

AND THAT WAS HIS BIG RULE, MAN, "JUST DON'T BREAK MY FURNITURE."

AND SO I'M LOOKING UP AT THIS JEWISH GUY, AND I'M LIKE,

"I AM SO SORRY. I AM SO STUPID," AND ALL I'M THINKING ABOUT

IS HOW MUCH HE'S GONNA TAKE OUT OF MY PAY,

AND HE'S PROBABLY GONNA FIRE ME.

AND HE GIVES ME MY WHOLE THING OF MONEY,

DOESN'T OPEN IT UP AND TAKE SOME OUT OR NOTHING.

HE'S LIKE, "HERE YOU GO. I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY, RIGHT?"

AND I JUST FELT LIKE CRYING. I WAS LIKE,

"YEAH, I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY. I'LL SEE YOU MONDAY."

SOON AS I GOT HOME, I RIPPED MY BOOTS OFF MY FEET.

I JUST -- I THREW THEM OUT IN MY MOM'S BASEMENT,

AND, TO THIS DAY, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY EVER WENT.

LIKE, I NEVER LOOKED AT THEM AGAIN.

IT ISN'T A SYSTEMATIC THING.

WE CAN'T LEGISLATE BEING A GOOD HUMAN BEING.

AND PEOPLE WOULD THROW BOTTLES AT US AND SNOWBALLS,

AND THEY'D THROW BRICKS AT US,

AND THEY'D SCREAM NASTY THINGS AT US

AS WE MARCHED THROUGH THE STREETS

OF WEST CHESTER OR SPOKANE OR WHEREVER.

NEVER ONCE DID I DUCK A BOTTLE AND GO,

"WHOA, I BETTER RETHINK MY BELIEFS HERE."

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

BUT WHEN YOU START HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH ME,

I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT.

I'D EASILY FIGHT AGAINST A BOTTLE BEING THROWN.

"THERE'S MY ENEMY. THERE HE IS. HE'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME.

HE THREW THE BOTTLE AT ME. I'M GONNA KICK HIS ASS."

WHEN YOU DIDN'T HAVE THAT INTERACTION WITH ME,

I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT.

SO WE HAVE TO GO AND HAVE THOSE REAL CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE.

I WAS ANGRY, AND I KNEW THAT I HAD A LIKING FOR VIOLENCE,

BUT I HAD STILL THOUGHT THAT, DEEP DOWN INSIDE,

I THOUGHT I WAS A GOOD PERSON.

I STILL THOUGHT THAT WAY OF MYSELF.

I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT WHAT WAS RIGHT AND NOT RIGHT.

I THOUGHT THAT WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING ME WAS RIGHT.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT --

UNTIL THE END, I REALLY THOUGHT

THAT THIS WAS 100% THE RIGHT THING TO BELIEVE IN.

IT'S NOT A GIVEN THAT SOMEBODY DERADICALIZES,

AND IT IS A HARD PROCESS BECAUSE MANY OF THESE GROUPS

PROVIDE A VERY IDEALISTIC SENSE OF PURPOSE AND MISSION

THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

BUT THE ONE THING I THINK WE STILL DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND

IS WHAT TAKES SOMEBODY OVER THE EDGE

FROM ADHERING TO EXTREMIST IDEOLOGIES

TO VIOLENCE.

THE EXPERIMENT WAS DEVISED

BY A PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY AT STANFORD -- PHILIP ZIMBARDO.

IT GREW OUT OF A COURSE

CALLED "THE PSYCHOLOGY OF IMPRISONMENT."

THE PURPOSE OF THE EXPERIMENT WAS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND,

TO FEEL, WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A PRISONER OR A PRISON GUARD.

THE CENTRAL TENET OF ALL EXTREMIST IDEOLOGY

IS A SYSTEM OF THE DEHUMANIZATION OF THE OTHER.

SO ONCE YOU SET UP A FRAME OF MIND

WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY US AGAINST THEM,

YOU CAN DO UNBELIEVABLE THINGS IN TERMS OF DIVIDING PEOPLE

AND TURNING THEM AGAINST EACH OTHER.

1971, PHILIP ZIMBARDO AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY

AND HIS COLLEAGUES -- HE PLACED AN ADVERT IN, I THINK,

THE PALO ALTO NEWSPAPER ASKING FOR PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE

IN A STUDY OF PRISON LIFE.

AND HE HAS CONSTRUCTED, IN THE BASEMENT

OF THE PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENT AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY,

A PRISON.

HE GETS THESE VOLUNTEERS, WHO WERE STUDENTS,

AND THEY ARE RANDOMLY ASSIGNED TO TWO GROUPS.

ROUGHLY HALF OF THEM ARE PRISONERS,

HALF OF THEM ARE GUARDS.

THE FIRST DAY, THE PRISONERS WERE PICKED UP

UNEXPECTEDLY BY THE POLICE,

AND THAT PUT THEM, MOST OF THEM, IN A STATE OF SHOCK.

WE -- THEY WERE HUMILIATED. THEY WERE STRIPPED NAKED.

THEY WERE DELOUSED.

AND THE IDEA, AS TOLD BY ZIMBARDO, IS THAT,

HAVING ASSIGNED THEM TO THOSE TWO ROLES,

HE STANDS BACK AND OBSERVES WHAT IS GONNA HAPPEN.

AND HIS QUESTION IS, WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS

THAT WOULD LEAD PEOPLE TO OPPRESS,

TO HATE, TO BRUTALIZE OTHER PEOPLE?

AND WHAT HE OBSERVES AND WHAT HE REPORTS IS THAT,

OVER THIS COURSE OF THE STUDY -- SIX DAYS --

THE GUARDS BECOME INCREASINGLY BRUTAL TOWARDS THE PRISONERS.

THEY OPPRESS THEM.

WELCOME BACK, 5704.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM TO WEAR CHAINS.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM TO WASH OUT TOILETS.

THEY'RE GETTING THEM TO DO PUSH-UPS.

DOWN! UP!

DOWN! UP!

THEN THEY'RE PUTTING THEIR FEET IN THEIR BACKS

AS THEY DO THE PUSH-UPS, AND THEY'RE SHOUTING AT THEM.

NOW THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!

FIVE MORE SETS. YOU GO THERE AND DO IT AGAIN.

AND THE PRISONERS, FOR THEIR PART,

ARE BECOMING INCREASINGLY DEPRESSED

AND DISPIRITED AND BROKEN.

AND THIS ESCALATES AND ESCALATES AND ESCALATES

TO A POINT WHERE YOU'VE GOT A KIND OF, LIKE, HELL ON EARTH.

AND AT THAT POINT, THE STORY GOES,

ZIMBARDO'S GIRLFRIEND TURNS UP AND SAYS,

"WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?" AND HE'S KIND OF...

ZIMBARDO, WHO'S RUNNING THE WHOLE OPERATION, SAYS,

"OH, MY GOD. THIS IS A NIGHTMARE" --

BECAUSE HE'S GOT CAUGHT UP IN IT, TOO --

AND SAYS, "WE MUST STOP THIS," AND THE WHOLE THING STOPS.

HIS STORY THEN IS, WHAT HAS GONE ON HERE IS,

PEOPLE WILL CONFORM NATURALLY

TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THEIR ROLE.

SO WHEN WE OBSERVE BRUTALITY IN THE WORLD,

THIS IS NOTHING ABOUT THE PERSON,

AND IT'S EVERYTHING ABOUT THE ROLES

THAT ARE REQUIRED OF THEM IN A GIVEN SITUATION.

HERE HE COMES. LAMBS TO THE SLAUGHTER.

PRISONER ARRIVED!

ONE DAY IN 2001, I GOT A CALL FROM THE BBC,

AND THEY'D READ OR HEARD ABOUT SOME OF OUR RESEARCH.

AND THEY SAID, "LOOK, WE'RE INTERESTED IN REVISITING

THE STANFORD PRISON STUDY,

AND WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN DOING THAT?"

EDWARDS.

MR. EDWARDS, YOU ARE PRISONER NUMBER 637.

THIS WAS 20 YEARS AGO. WE WERE YOUNG.

WE WERE FOOLISH. SO WE SAID, "OKAY."

EFFECTIVELY, WE STARTED WITH THE SAME SETUP AS ZIMBARDO.

WE TOOK... I THINK IT WAS 15 MEN. THEY WEREN'T STUDENTS.

THEY WERE MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL POPULATION.

AND WE ASSIGNED THEM TO BE PRISONERS AND GUARDS.

AND THEN WE WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED

AND JUST LET THE GUARDS RUN THE PRISON.

NOW, IT WAS AT THAT POINT THAT WE REALLY GOT THE FIRST SHOCK

BECAUSE, ACTUALLY, THE GUARDS DIDN'T IDENTIFY WITH THEIR ROLE.

THEY WERE ACTUALLY A BIT RELUCTANT

TO TAKE ON THE ROLE OF GUARDS. THEY THOUGHT, "MM, NOT SURE."

I DON'T WANT TO BE A GUARD, TO BE HONEST, REALLY.

I'D RATHER BE A PRISONER, REALLY, IN ALL HONESTY.

MORE PARTICULARLY,

THEY SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO APPETITE, YOU KNOW,

TO INEVITABLY CONFORM TO THE REQUIREMENTS

OF THE PRISON AND START TO BRUTALIZE THE PRISONERS.

THE GUARDS DON'T REALLY WANT TO ACT AS A GROUP.

THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE ON THEIR ROLES.

ALL OF THEM HATE INEQUALITY,

DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, BE TYRANNICAL GUARDS,

DON'T WANT TO BE OPPRESSED PRISONERS.

WE KNEW SOMETHING WAS MISSING.

WE KNEW SOMETHING HAD GONE ON, BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS,

AND WE WERE THINKING,

"OH, WE MUST BE DOING SOMETHING WRONG HERE."

WELL, ACTUALLY, THEN, AT THAT POINT,

WE WENT BACK AND LOOKED VERY CLOSELY

AT WHAT MATERIAL WAS AVAILABLE FROM THE STANFORD STUDY.

TEST. TEST ONE, TWO.

AND THEN WE GOT ACCESS TO A TAPE

WHICH HAS JUST BEEN DIGITIZED IN THE STANFORD ARCHIVE.

ON THAT TAPE, WHAT YOU HEAR IS A MEETING

BETWEEN ZIMBARDO'S PRISON WARDEN,

WHO'S ACTUALLY ONE OF HIS COLLABORATORS, DAVID JAFFE,

AND A GUARD, JOHN MARK.

AND THIS GUARD HAS BEEN A BIT RELUCTANT

TO KIND OF GET IN THE MIX.

WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUARD BEING TOLD HOW TO BEHAVE,

I THINK THAT'S A SHOCK.

THE MORE THAT WE WENT INTO IT, THE MORE WE REALIZED,

ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, ZIMBARDO HAD DONE STUFF THAT WE HADN'T.

AND THE KEY REASON WHY WE HADN'T FOUND THAT BEHAVIOR

ON THE PART OF THE GUARDS

WAS WE HAD NEVER LED THEM TO BELIEVE

THAT THAT WAS WHAT WE WANTED.

SO, ESSENTIALLY, WE'RE SETTING UP A PHYSICAL PRISON HERE

TO STUDY WHAT THAT DOES.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE STUDIES,

WE JUST FOCUS ON THE PARTICIPANTS

AND WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID.

BUT A CRITICAL PIECE OF THE JIGSAW,

IF YOU LIKE, IS WHAT WAS ZIMBARDO DID

TO MAKE THEM WANT TO DO WHAT THEY DID.

WE CAN CREATE BOREDOM,

CAN CREATE A SENSE OF FRUSTRATION,

CAN CREATE A SENSE OF FEAR IN THEM.

THE STANFORD PRISON EXPERIMENT TELLS US

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A VIOLENT TYPE.

THIS IS ANYBODY.

THIS CAN BE ANYBODY...

IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT.

AUTHORITY PLAYS A ROLE, THEN,

AND LEADERSHIP, FOR CERTAIN.

AND WHAT'S REALLY SHOCKING IS THE SPEED AT WHICH THAT HAPPENS.

THAT WAS THE THING THAT STRUCK ME IN WATCHING YUGOSLAVIA

GOING FROM PEACEFUL TO GENOCIDAL IN 18 MONTHS.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT WE SEE WITH THE STANFORD EXPERIMENT --

THE SPEED AT WHICH YOU CAN INCITE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR

IN ORDINARY PEOPLE.

THEY ARE NOT CRAZY.

THESE ARE NOT MENTALLY DERANGED INDIVIDUALS.

THESE ARE NORMAL PEOPLE.

ZIMBARDO RAN STRAIGHT OUT AFTER HAVING PRODUCED THE FINDINGS

AND TOLD THE WORLD ABOUT THEM.

HE WENT STRAIGHT INTO SOME CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS,

AND I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF BUY-IN FOR THAT

FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

THERE WAS A MASSIVE RESURGENCE

IN THE IRAQ WAR AROUND ABU GHRAIB

BECAUSE, ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU SAW THERE

WERE IMAGES THAT SEEMED TO BE VERY MUCH ALIGNED

WITH THE KIND OF IMAGES IN THE STANFORD STUDY,

AND THE STORY HE TOLD IN THAT CONTEXT WAS,

"LOOK, WHERE YOU SAW BRUTALITY IN ABU GHRAIB,

THIS WAS NOT BECAUSE THE GUARDS WERE BRUTAL.

IT WAS NOTHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.

IT WAS EVERYTHING ABOUT THE SITUATION."

AND AT THE TIME,

OURSELVES AND OTHER PEOPLE WERE STARTING TO SAY,

"ACTUALLY, LEADERSHIP HAD TO BE PART OF THE STORY HERE."

IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE'RE DOING BECAUSE WE'RE JUST NASTY PEOPLE.

WE'RE DOING THIS BECAUSE THAT CAUSE

IS REPRESENTED AS SOMETHING THAT'S GLORIOUS

AND IS VALORIZED AS SOMETHING

THAT IS NOBLE AND GOOD.

IN THE CONTEXT OF ABU GHRAIB,

I WOULD BE ASKING THESE SOLDIERS,

"IN YOUR MIND, WHO GAVE YOU THAT ORDER?

YOUR ENTIRE TRAINING IS TO FOLLOW COMMAND.

WHERE DID YOU FEEL THAT THAT COMMAND CAME FROM?"

"HOW DID YOU FEEL IT WAS JUSTIFIED?

DID YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF REPERCUSSION?

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU WOULD BE TAKEN TO TASK FOR THIS BEHAVIOR?

DID YOU FEEL IT WAS RIGHT?

DID YOU ULTIMATELY FEEL THAT IT WAS RIGHT?"

THE WAY IN WHICH LEADERS MOBILIZE THEIR FOLLOWERS

IS TO INSTILL IN THEIR FOLLOWERS A SENSE OF

IMMEDIATE EXISTENTIAL THREAT OR HUGE MORAL REWARD.

YOU HAVE A HIGHER PURPOSE.

SO NO MATTER HOW SAD OR SMALL YOUR LIFE WAS BEFORE,

YOU ARE NOW SOMEBODY.

I SAW THE WORLD IN BLACK AND WHITE

FROM THE BEGINNING.

AS FAR BACK AS I CAN REMEMBER,

I WAS ALWAYS NOT SEARCHING FOR A TRUTH THAT BELONGED TO ME,

BUT ONE SINGLE OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

I WENT THROUGH SEVERE ABUSE IN THE EARLY STAGES OF MY LIFE.

THAT LED ME TO RUN AWAY WHEN I WAS 16,

TO FLEE THE ABUSE.

I STARTED SELLING DRUGS TO SURVIVE.

I GOT CAUGHT WITH A LOT OF DRUGS, TRUTH BE TOLD.

SO I ENDED UP SITTING IN PRISON FOR 11 MONTHS.

AND, OF COURSE, THERE'S NOTHING TO DO IN JAIL BUT READ,

SO OF COURSE I DID,

AND I FOUND AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X.

THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT LED ME TO ISLAM.

I HADN'T READ THE QUR'AN.

I COULD RELATE WITH MALCOLM'S STORY.

HE HAD A VERY TRAUMATIC UPBRINGING,

BUT THEN HE WAS EDUCATED IN GOOD SCHOOLS, LIKE ME,

AND I WANTED TO BE THE RADICAL THAT MALCOLM WAS.

THIS REVIVAL...

IT TOOK ME ABOUT A YEAR TO ACTUALLY CONVERT,

AND I BECAME YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD.

- WHAT IS YOUR NAME? - MUHAMMAD.

- MUHAMMAD WHAT? - YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD.

WHAT'S YOUR NAME, THE ONE YOU'RE BORN WITH?

YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD. THAT'S MY NAME.

- WHO DO YOU REPRESENT? - I REPRESENT ISLAM.

I TOTALLY TRANSFORMED MY LIFE THROUGH ISLAM.

I DIDN'T USE DRUGS, ALCOHOL FOR 14 YEARS,

AND I FOUND ISLAM WAS SORT OF PURE FOR ME.

I WAS OPPOSED TO CONSUMERISM.

I FELT LIKE PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND

THAT THERE WAS A DEEPER COMPONENT TO LIFE

THAN SIMPLY OBTAINING THINGS.

SO, I LEARNED ABOUT A NEW --

SORT OF THE SALAFI JIHADIST MENTALITY, OR THE IDEOLOGY,

AND I STARTED TO ABSORB IT.

OUR HATRED AND ENMITY EXTENDS TO ALL THOSE

THAT SUPPORT THE JEWISH STATE WITH THEIR WEALTH,

WITH THEIR WORD, AND WITH THEIR WEAPONS.

WE ISSUE THE FOLLOWING...

SO I DECIDED TO START MY OWN ORGANIZATION.

THESE ARE THE BROTHERS OF REVOLUTION MUSLIM.

WE TELL YOU MUSLIMS TO RISE UP.

THEY ARE RECRUITING JUST OUTSIDE NEW YORK'S 96th STREET MOSQUE.

...THAT THE QUR'AN COMMANDS THAT YOU DISAVOW

AND MAKE HATRED AND ENMITY BETWEEN DEMOCRACY.

MY ORGANIZATION WAS GONNA BE DIFFERENT.

MY ORGANIZATION WAS GONNA STAND ON THE CORNER AND SAY,

"YES, I LOVE OSAMA BIN LADEN, AND I SUPPORT HIM."

THAT YOU SEE THE UNITED STATES

AS THE ENEMY IT REALLY IS!

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME IN THE UNITED STATES THAT, I THINK,

ANYBODY DID SO IN THE POST-9/11 ARENA.

SO EVERY FRIDAY THE MUSLIMS HAVE

WHAT COULD BE CONSIDERED THEIR CHURCH,

WHERE THE IMAM GIVES ABOUT A 45-MINUTE LECTURE,

AND THEN EVERYBODY PRAYS TOGETHER.

AND FRIDAY'S PROBABLY THE BUSIEST DAY AT THE MOSQUE.

SO FOR FUNDRAISING PURPOSES, RECRUITMENT PURPOSES,

AND IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT WE WERE ACTIVE IN THE COMMUNITY,

WHAT WE WOULD DO IS WE WOULD COME HERE RIGHT OUT FRONT.

THEY COULDN'T STOP US BECAUSE THIS IS A PUBLIC STREET.

THAT'S PRIVATE PROPERTY.

THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT A PUBLIC STREET.

SO EVEN THOUGH THEY DIDN'T WANT US TO PREACH HERE,

WE UTILIZED THE LAW

IN ORDER TO JUST FORCE IT DOWN THEIR THROATS.

SO OUTSIDE THE MOSQUE, WE WOULD SIT ON THE CORNER.

WE WOULD SET UP A TABLE. WE WOULD HAVE A BANNER.

WE WOULD GIVE AWAY DVDs OF OUR SCHOLAR OR OF OUR WEEKLY LESSON.

WE ALSO HAD A DOCUMENT WE CALLED "THE RADICAL REVIEW" --

SHORT LITTLE HANDOUT, GET THEM TO THE WEBSITE.

SO THAT WAS BASICALLY HOW WE RECRUITED.

YOU DEFINE TERRORISM AS GOING

AND KILLING AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN.

THAT'S WHAT YOUR... HOW DO YOU...?

I DEFINE TERRORISM AS MAKING THEM FEARFUL

SO THAT THEY THINK TWICE BEFORE THEY GO RAPE YOUR MOTHER

OR KILL YOUR BROTHER OR GO ONTO YOUR LAND

AND TRY TO STEAL YOUR RESOURCES.

THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR, WE LEARNED THAT THERE ARE

CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE INCREDIBLY BENEFICIAL

WITH REGARD TO GENERATING RECRUITMENT

AND RADICALIZATION OF OTHERS, RIGHT?

SO, YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION

TO WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE KIDS ON THE STREET

BECAUSE IF YOU'RE A 40-YEAR-OLD RECRUITER,

YOU'RE STILL GONNA RECRUIT 22-YEAR-OLDS

WHEN IT COMES TO SALAFI JIHADISM, RIGHT?

SO YOU GOT TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE KIDS ARE MOVING.

AND NOW IT'S ALL ABOUT SLOGANS AND MEMES AND VIOLENCE.

AND IF ISIS HAS ANYTHING TO OFFER, IT'S VIOLENCE.

JESSE WAS VERY INFLUENTIAL.

HE'S EXTREMELY CHARISMATIC.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!

AN AMERICAN KID ABLE TO SPEAK TO AMERICAN KIDS.

AND IN THAT SENSE, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO THE MOVEMENT,

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND BETTER THAN ANYBODY

THE NEED TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES,

WITH THEIR OWN SEMANTIC,

IN THEIR OWN CULTURAL CONTEXT.

THE QUR'AN SAYS VERY CLEARLY IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE...

THIS MEANS "TERRORIZE THEM."

JESSE WAS PROBABLY, IN AMERICA,

I WOULD SAY THEMOST PROLIFIC RECRUITER

FOR AL-QAEDA DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME WHEN HE WAS ACTIVE.

NUMEROUS FOILED PLOTS HAVE BEEN LINKED BACK TO THE WEBSITE

THAT HE CREATED AND THAT HE MODERATED,

SO HE WAS REALLY IN THE MOVEMENT.

AND THEIR PROPAGANDA BASICALLY BEGINS

WITH THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE --

"THE WORLD IS AT WAR WITH ISLAM."

ALLAHU AKBAR!

AND THEY CALL OUT TO FELLOW MUSLIMS

TO COME AND DEFEND THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

THESE YOUNG MEN CANNOT AFFORD TO JUST SIT AND WATCH

AS THE AMERICAN CRUSADERS PERPETRATED

THE MOST HIDEOUS ATROCITIES AGAINST THEIR MUSLIM BROTHERS.

A LOT OF THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN

THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO,

AT LEAST IN THE FIRST INITIAL STAGES OF THEIR RECRUITMENT,

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THEY

ARE ACTUALLY RESPONDING FROM A PLACE OF GOODNESS.

THEY'RE RESPONDING FROM A PLACE OF COMPASSION,

AND THAT COMPASSION IS BEING WEAPONIZED.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT,

"COME HERE AND BEHEAD CIVILIANS."

WHY WOULD THAT BE APPEALING TO ANYONE,

EXCEPT FOR MAYBE A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF TRUE PSYCHOPATHS?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO SOME HIGHER SENSE OF PURPOSE

IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO WANT TO UPEND THEIR LIVES.

WE TELL YOU MUSLIMS TO RISE UP.

ONE OF THE MISTAKES I THINK PEOPLE MAKE

IN THEIR ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT EXTREMISTS

IS THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW HOPELESS FIGURES.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

YOU HAVE SMART, CHARISMATIC, THOUGHTFUL INDIVIDUALS

LIKE JESSE WHO ENTER THESE MOVEMENTS,

AND THAT COMBINATION MAKES THEM EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE

AND IS WHAT MAKES THEM SUCCESSFUL.

SO I THINK JESSE, IN SOME SENSE,

IS TYPICAL OF A LEADERSHIP ROLE WITHIN AN EXTREMIST MOVEMENT.

"PERSONAL STORY" SEGMENT TONIGHT --

THE PROGRAM "SOUTH PARK" IS A CONTROVERSIAL SATIRICAL SHOW

THAT OFTEN MOCKS RELIGION.

LAST WEEK, "SOUTH PARK" WENT AFTER THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

THERE'S SOMEBODY I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO MEET FACE-TO-FACE.

IF YOU COULD GET HIM TO SHOW UP IN YOUR TOWN...

SURE! WHO IS IT?

WE CAN GET ANYBODY FOR YOU.

MUHAMMAD, THE PROPHET OF THE MUSLIM FAITH.

OOOOH...

THE WRITERS OF THE CARTOON "SOUTH PARK"

ANNOUNCED THEY WERE GOING TO PORTRAY THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

NOW A MAN NAMED JESSE CURTIS MORTON,

WHO IS ALSO KNOWN AS YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD,

HAS BEEN THREATENING THE WRITERS

OF THE TELEVISION COMEDY SERIES "SOUTH PARK."

WELL, AFTER THAT EPISODE RAN,

THE FOLLOWING QUOTE APPEARED ON A PRO-JIHADI WEBSITE

TARGETING THE CREATORS OF "SOUTH PARK" --

"WE HAVE TO WARN MATT AND TREY..."

THEY ARE THE CREATORS.

"...THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS STUPID

AND THEY WILL PROBABLY WIND UP LIKE

THEO VAN GOGH FOR AIRING THIS SHOW.

THIS IS NOT A THREAT, BUT A WARNING OF THE REALITY

OF WHAT WILL LIKELY HAPPEN TO THEM."

THEO VAN GOGH, AS YOU MAY KNOW,

IS A DUTCH CITIZEN MURDERED AFTER CRITICIZING ISLAM.

SO IT WAS A CLEAR THREAT,

AND I USED IT TO GENERATE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CONTROVERSY

AND ATTENTION TOWARDS REVOLUTION MUSLIM'S WEBSITE.

BUT YOU GOT TO DEAL WITH REALITY.

THESE PEOPLE ARE KILLERS, AND THEY WILL KILL YOU.

IT WAS BEING DETERMINED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT,

THE NYPD,

IF THEY COULD CHARGE ME AS A RESULT OF THE POST.

I WASN'T INDICTED RIGHT AWAY OR ARRESTED RIGHT AWAY.

MY CODEFENDANT ULTIMATELY WAS ARRESTED ABOUT SIX MONTHS LATER.

I KNEW HE WAS GONNA GET A LOT OF TIME FOR THAT.

SO WE GOT ON THE NEXT PLANE LEAVING THE COUNTRY,

NOT KNOWING IF I'D BE ABLE TO.

I PACKED ALL MY FAMILY UP AND JUST MOVED THEM

TO CASABLANCA, MOROCCO, TO GET AWAY.

SO, I WAS TEACHING ENGLISH, AND I WAS TEACHING,

AT A UNIVERSITY, BUSINESS CLASSES IN CASABLANCA

WHEN THE ARAB SPRING BROKE OUT.

SO I STARTED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS

WITH MY STUDENTS AFTER CLASS.

I REALIZED THAT THEY REALLY JUST WANTED THINGS

THAT I HAD TAKEN FOR GRANTED MY ENTIRE LIFE --

AN ABILITY TO SPEAK THEIR MINDS,

AN ABILITY TO ELECT REPRESENTATIVES.

AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND,

I HAD ALL THIS ANTI-AMERICAN SENTIMENT COMING TO ME.

THEY WERE INSULTING AMERICANS, SAYING THEY'RE ALL FAT,

THEY DON'T FEED YOU WHEN YOU GO TO THEIR HOUSE.

AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE,

STARTED TO DEFEND THE UNITED STATES.

HIS NAME IS JESSE MORTON.

BORN IN PENNSYLVANIA.

2010, HE FLED TO MOROCCO, WHERE HE WAS ARRESTED.

SO I WAS ARRESTED IN CASABLANCA ONE DAY, OUT OF NOWHERE.

I WAS ARRESTED TWO WEEKS AFTER OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS KILLED

IN THE ABBOTTABAD RAIDS,

MAY 23rd OF 2011.

AND I WAS SET FOR EXTRADITION BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

BUT WHEN THEY PUT ME ON THE PLANE,

THEY PUT THE BLINDFOLDERS ON, THEY PLUGGED MY EARS.

THE SECRET SERVICE, NAVY SEALS, THE WHOLE NINE YARDS,

DRESSED ME UP LIKE YOU WOULD DRESS SOMEBODY UP

GOING TO GUANTANAMO OR BAGRAM.

THEY WALKED ME WITH THE CHAIN LINKS DOWN THE TARMAC.

WHEN THEY PUT ME ON THE PLANE, A SECRET SERVICE AGENT,

FIRST THING HE DOES IS PUT MY QUR'AN DOWN IN FRONT OF ME.

HE SAYS, "DO YOU WANT TO HOLD ONTO THAT WHILE WE FLY?"

AND THEN HE ASKED ME, HE SAYS, "TECHNICALLY, I GOT TO ASK YOU,

DO YOU WANT ME TO CALL YOU JESSE?

OR DO YOU WANT ME TO CALL YOU YOUNUS?"

AND I THINK HE EXPECTED ME TO SAY YOUNUS.

I EXPECTED MYSELF TO SAY YOUNUS.

BUT FOR SOME REASON I SAID JESSE MORTON.

I WANTED TO BE CALLED JESSE MORTON, AND THIS WAS...

IT JUST STANDS OUT AS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT

FOR MY STARTING POINT FOR MY DERADICALIZATION.

HE WAS RELEASED FROM JAIL.

HE INITIALLY GOT A JOB AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY

AT THE PROGRAM ON EXTREMISM.

THINGS LOOKED REALLY GOOD FOR HIM FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS,

AND THEN HE SLIPPED AND STARTED USING DRUGS AGAIN

AND WAS IMMEDIATELY FIRED BY G.W.

WHEN HE STARTED TO FEEL LIKE HIS IDEOLOGY WAS FALLING APART...

THIS IS NOT SOME PASSING THING.

THIS WAS DEEPLY INSIDE HIS DNA.

HE REALLY THOUGHT HE WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

AND IT WAS VERY FRIGHTENING, I THINK,

WHEN THAT WORLD VIEW STARTED TO CRUMBLE AROUND HIM

AND HE BEGAN TO REALIZE, YOU KNOW,

THAT HE HAD LED ALL THESE PEOPLE INTO THEIR ARREST,

INTO FOILED PLOTS, INTO ATTEMPTS AT VIOLENCE,

AND THAT MAYBE HE WAS WRONG.

FOR US AS EUROPEANS,

IT IS ONLY NORMAL AGAIN WHEN WE ARE GREAT AGAIN.

HAIL TRUMP! HAIL OUR PEOPLE! HAIL VICTORY!

THE FAR RIGHT AND THE ISLAMIST PARTS OF THE SPECTRUM

ACTUALLY SHARE THE SAME NARRATIVE --

YOU KNOW, "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY,

AND WE ARE ULTIMATELY INCOMPATIBLE."

AND THAT NOW IS MAINSTREAMING

IN WAYS THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED BEFORE.

THEY ARE ORGANIZING TACTICALLY ACROSS BORDERS,

ACROSS A FAIRLY WIDE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM.

AND THE ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE OF THESE GROUPS IS DIVISION,

IS POLARIZATION, A SORT OF DEEP POLARIZATION.

BLOOD AND SOIL! BLOOD AND SOIL!

WE'RE AN AMERICAN ORGANIZATION,

AND OUR MEMBERSHIP REPRESENTS THIS.

WHAT HAPPENED WITH DONALD TRUMP COMING INTO OFFICE,

AND PEOPLE THINK, "WOW, THAT WAS THE RISE OF THIS NEW PARTY."

NO. IT WAS ALWAYS THERE,

AND THEN, KNOWING THAT REALLY THE BIGGEST RISE WAS IN 2008.

NBC NEWS CALLING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.

THAT'S WHEN THE MOVEMENT GOT GIGANTIC OVERNIGHT.

THERE WAS A BLACK DUDE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

I WANT OUR ACTIONS TO TELL EVERY CHILD IN EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD,

"YOUR LIFE MATTERS."

MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD,

BLACK AND WHITE, LATINO, ASIAN,

IMMIGRANT, NATIVE AMERICAN, GAY, STRAIGHT,

AMERICANS WITH MENTAL ILLNESS OR PHYSICAL DISABILITY,

EVERYBODY MATTERS.

I WOULD BUILD A GREAT WALL,

AND NOBODY BUILDS WALLS BETTER THAN ME, BELIEVE ME,

AND I'LL BUILD THEM VERY INEXPENSIVELY.

DONALD TRUMP ANNOUNCES HIS CANDIDACY

AND GOES RIGHT INTO THE WALL.

THEY'RE BRINGING DRUGS, THEY'RE BRINGING CRIME.

AND HE SAYS, "WE GOTTA BUILD THIS WALL

'CAUSE THERE ARE DRUG DEALERS, RAPISTS, GANG MEMBERS."

THEY'RE RAPISTS.

HE JUST SPOKE TO EVERY RACIST

THAT CAME OUT IN 2008.

HE JUST SPOKE TO EVERY ONE OF THEM AND SAID,

"I BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE,"

AND THEY ALL POPPED THEIR HEADS BACK UP AND WAS LIKE,

"YES, OUR GUY IS RUNNING," YOU KNOW?

WE WANT TRUMP! WE WANT TRUMP!

CANDIDATE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP TAPPED INTO

THIS FEAR OF CHANGE...

WE'VE GOT TO FIGHT BACK. WE'VE GOT TO FIGHT BACK.

...THE NOTION OF CULTURAL CHANGE.

IN FACT, IT'S BEEN TWISTED TO BE CALLED WHITE CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

AT THE TIKI TORCH MARCH IN CHARLOTTESVILLE

IN AUGUST OF '17,

THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD USE THE DEBATE

OVER THE CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS

AS A WAY TO WEDGE INTO THE MAINSTREAM

THE NOTION THAT CITIZENSHIP...

YOUR AMERICA'S GONE, ****!

...THE TRUE AMERICAN IS ONE THAT HAS WHITE SKIN,

AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS AN ENEMY

THAT IS TRYING TO COME FROM WITHIN.

OUR MONUMENTS ARE BEING TORN DOWN.

THEY ARE BEING REMOVED AND REPLACED.

AND OUR PEOPLE ARE BEING TORN DOWN AND REPLACED.

WHITE PRIDE!

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING PROUD OF WHO YOU ARE.

WITH ALL THESE WHITE SUPREMACISTS,

WHITE NATIONALISTS, NAZIS, KLAN SYMPATHIZERS,

WE HADN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT

CERTAINLY IN MY PROFESSIONAL CAREER,

AND I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR OVER THREE DECADES.

- WHITE LIVES MATTER! - WHOO!

STAY BACK! STAY BACK! STAY BACK!

WHEN CHARLOTTESVILLE BROKE DOWN, THE FIRST NIGHT,

I HAD HEARD THAT SOME OF THEM WERE SAYING STUFF ABOUT JEWS,

SO I WAS LIKE, "ALRIGHT, I'M KIND OF..."

YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF GOT MY INTEREST THERE,

"JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US."

AND I'M LIKE, "MAN, WHO'S LEADING THIS?"

AND THEN I STARTED SEEING THAT THERE WAS SOME REAL NEO-NAZIS

THERE, GUYS THAT CAME UP KIND OF WHEN I CAME UP THAT ARE NOW,

YOU KNOW, THE INTERNET GUYS OF THE MOVEMENT,

AND I'M LIKE, "THERE'S SOME BIG NAMES DOWN THERE."

- BLOOD AND SOIL! - WHITE LIVES MATTER!

BACK UP. BACK UP ON THE STEPS!

- WHAT THE ****?! - BACK!

WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW WITH ALL THESE GROUPS

IS THEY'RE REPACKAGING WHAT WE SOLD IN THE '90s,

REPACKAGING FEAR, REPACKAGING HATE.

IT'S ALL THE SAME.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY 100% ALL THE SAME.

IT'S A BUNCH OF MEN WHO ARE FEARFUL AND THEY'RE SCARED

AND THEY ARE GONNA LASH OUT VIOLENTLY.

THERE'S NO OTHER END TO THIS RIGHT NOW

THAN VIOLENCE SOMEWHERE.

WE'RE MARCHING TO McINTIRE --

WE'RE MARCHING TO McINTIRE PARK!

CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT COMES IN

AN HOUR AND A HALF AFTER OUR PERMIT STARTED AT 10:00 A.M.

AND DECLARES AN UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY.

AND IT WAS A HECKLER'S VETO.

WE, OUR PEOPLE, WERE NOT BEING VIOLENT.

THEY WERE BEING VIOLENT TO US.

THERE IS A CHOREOGRAPHED DANCE

THAT EXISTS BETWEEN THE COUNTERPROTESTERS,

ANTIFA, AND WHITE NATIONALISTS.

WE HAVE REPLACED YOU!

ANTIFA IS BANGING DRUMS

AND YELLING AND BEING IN THEIR FACE

TO RESIST THIS WHITE NATIONALISM.

...RIGHT NOW OR YOU WILL BE ARRESTED.

ANTIFA, AT VARYING LEVELS, EXCUSES OR ACCEPTS VIOLENCE.

THESE ARE NOT MARTIN LUTHER KING FOLKS

IN THEIR HARDEST INCARNATION.

BUT I WANT TO BE CLEAR HERE --

NOT ONLY IS THERE NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY,

ANTIFA DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECT CONNECTION

TO 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE.

WHITE NATIONALISTS DO.

YOU HAD PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP THAT WERE THERE TO PROTEST

THE TAKING DOWN OF, TO THEM, A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT STATUE.

YOU'RE CHANGING HISTORY. YOU'RE CHANGING CULTURE.

THE FORMER HEAD OF THE KKK, DAVID DUKE, OVER THE WEEKEND,

TWEETING, "GRATEFUL TO THE PRESIDENT FOR HIS WORDS TODAY."

"THANK YOU, PRESIDENT TRUMP, FOR YOUR HONESTY AND COURAGE

TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT CHARLOTTESVILLE."

WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY REALLY SAW HIM

AS SOMEONE WHO -- HE'S GONNA PUSH A PRO-WHITE AGENDA.

HE'S OPENED UP A DOOR.

HIS MOVEMENT HAS OPENED UP A DOOR.

AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

OUR COUNTRY!

I'M A PROUD **** AMERICAN! MADE IN USA, ****!

MADE IN **** USA!

GO **** COOK MY BURRITO, ****!

WHILE THE VIOLENCE IS THE MOST SORT OF OBVIOUS ASPECT

OF EXTREMIST ORGANIZATIONS AND MOVEMENTS,

WE SEE ALL SORTS OF EXTREMIST GROUPS BRAND-CLEANSE.

THEY'VE STARTED TO SOFTEN THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY USE,

TO SOME EXTENT, IN ORDER TO REACH OUT

TO MUCH MORE MAINSTREAM AUDIENCES.

WE'VE SEEN THAT NOW WITH THE ALT-RIGHT,

BY NOT PUTTING THE RACIST FOOT FIRST,

TALKING INSTEAD ABOUT CULTURAL THREATS.

AND THE PATHWAY TO RADICALIZATION,

IT IS NOT A BOTTOM-UP MOVEMENT.

THESE ARE MOVEMENTS THAT ARE ORCHESTRATED,

MANIPULATED TOP-DOWN ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE WEST,

I THINK, IN BIG WAYS, BUT ALSO INTERNATIONALLY.

I REACT TO THE FACT THAT THERE'S SO MUCH ISLAMOPHOBIA

AND SO MUCH FEAR OF THE AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY

BY BLAMING MYSELF.

WE WILL FIGHT YOU AND DESTROY YOU IF WE HAVE TO!

NOT IN TOTALITY, BUT WE PLAYED A MAJOR ROLE.

HOW YOU DOING?

I DON'T REMEMBER HOW LONG IT'S BEEN.

VERY GOOD. VERY GOOD. VERY GOOD.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I

WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AMENDS FOR THE MOST

IS THE FACT THAT A RELIGION THAT I BELIEVED IN

AND THAT HELPED ME SO MUCH TO GET MY LIFE TOGETHER,

I BETRAYED THE ADHERENCE OF THAT RELIGION.

IT'S A MOTIVATING FACTOR, BUT TRUTH BE TOLD,

IT'S ALSO THE ROOT OF A LOT OF GUILT AND SHAME.

I CAN'T WATCH THE OLD VIDEOS

OF YOUNUS ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD PREACHING.

IT MAKES ME SICK.

LET'S GO.

I'LL GIVE YOU THE TOUR.

DERADICALIZATION IS

SUCH A COMPLICATED AND MULTI-DIMENSIONAL PROCESS.

IT MEANS TO CHANGE AND ALTER YOUR POSITION IN A MOVEMENT

SO THAT YOU CAN START TO WALK AWAY FROM EXTREMISM

STEP BY STEP.

HAPPY TO SEE YOU.I'M HAPPY TO SEE YOU, TOO.

YEAH. MM.

HOW ARE YOU DOING? I'M DOING VERY WELL.

YEAH? MM-HMM.

THE REASON THAT WE STARTED

TO REACH OUT TO FORMER EXTREMISTS

WAS BECAUSE WE NEED TO HAVE THE PEOPLE

WHO UNDERSTAND THEIR COMMUNITIES,

WHO DEEPLY UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS AND THE RESPONSES THAT WORK.

WHEN WE HAD THAT SESSION

AND WE WERE LOOKING AT GETTING PROPER SUPPORT

FOR PEOPLE IN YOUR SITUATION, CAN YOU REMEMBER?

YEAH, FOR SURE.

I MEAN, IT WAS AWKWARD,

'CAUSE THAT WAS RIGHT AT MY TRANSITION POINT,

WHERE THINGS STARTED TO GET CLOUDY,

WHERE I WAS JUST LIKE, "I DON'T KNOW

IF CAN DO THIS," YOU KNOW?

WHAT WE STARTED TO FIND AS WE REACHED OUT

TO THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD COME OUT OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS

WAS HOW SIMILAR THEIR PERSONAL JOURNEYS WERE,

THEIR TRAJECTORIES IN AND OUT,

EVEN THOUGH THE IDEOLOGIES DIFFERED.

AND THE WAY IN WHICH WE WORKED WITH THEM,

WE STARTED TO LOOK AT WAYS IN WHICH TO SUPPORT THEM

IN PASSING THAT FORWARD.

THE QUESTION IS ULTIMATELY, LIKE, WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

AND IF YOU LEAVE THAT PERSON

INDEPENDENT AND ALONE AND IN ISOLATION

AND THEY DON'T HAVE A SOCIAL SENSE

OF BELONGING OR SOME OTHER ALTERNATIVE NETWORK

AND OTHER ALTERNATIVE AVENUE TO ENGAGE...

YEAH.

...THERE'S GOING TO BE COMPLICATIONS.

AND THE PROBLEM IS, IS, LIKE,

YOU DON'T HAVE THAT COMMUNITY IN PLACE,

WHICH IS WHAT I THINK MY KEY TAKEAWAY IS,

THAT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE A COMMUNITY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS ACCOMPANIED MY DERADICALIZATION

IS THIS IDENTIFICATION THAT THERE ARE VERY SIMILAR PATTERNS

BETWEEN JIHADISM AND RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM.

HEY, JASON. HEY, JESSE.

NICE TO FINALLY SEE YOU IN PERSON.

NICE TO MEET YOU.

FEEL LIKE I ALREADY KNOW YOU, BUT WE'LL HAVE A CONVERSATION.

HOW'D YOU GET HERE? WAS IT GOOD?

SO, LAST YEAR, WHEN THERE WAS THE CHARLOTTESVILLE

UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY, I WROTE AN OP-ED PIECE...

I MEAN, AS YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR SOME TIME NOW.

YEP.

...ABOUT HOW THE IDEOLOGIES ARE SIMILAR,

BUT ALSO WROTE ABOUT JASON KESSLER

AS A FIGURE WHO WAS LESS EXTREME BUT REPRESENTED A SIMILAR ROLE

TO THE ONE THAT I PLAYED AT REVOLUTION MUSLIM.

I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW, HOW DID YOU FEEL

WHEN YOU GOT AN E-MAIL THAT SAID,

"HEY, I'M A FORMER JIHADIST,

AND I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR IDEAS"?

YOU KNOW, I WAS OPEN-MINDED TO IT

BECAUSE IT SEEMED LIKE YOU WERE GENUINELY CURIOUS

ABOUT WHERE I WAS COMING FROM.

I MEAN, IT'S... RIGHT NOW,

WITH THE PERCEPTION OF MY EVENT LAST YEAR,

SOME PEOPLE, LIKE, THEY JUST HATE THE CONCEPTS

THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

WHITE PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED TO HAVE ORGANIZATIONS.

WHAT I'VE TRIED TO DO IS A CIVIL RIGHTS THING.

AND WHENEVER I ACT THE WAY THAT I SEE OTHER RACES ACTING

WHEN THEY'RE CALLED CIVIL RIGHTS,

PEOPLE ACCUSE ME OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

AND FOR ME, IN MY HEAD,

I WAS THINKING OF THE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE

LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING, WHO LED MARCHES,

AND I WAS THINKING, "THIS IS A CIVIL RIGHTS MARCH,"

AND I'M WALKING AT THE FRONT OF THIS THING.

AND NOW WHERE THAT GETS INTO THE EXTREMISM THING

IS THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY GOOD PEOPLE,

AND WHEN PEOPLE SHAME THEM AND SAY,

"YOU'RE A BAD PERSON FOR TRYING TO STAND UP FOR WHITE PEOPLE,"

THEY'LL EITHER GIVE UP AND JUST SAY,

"THIS IS TOO MUCH. I'M NOT GONNA RISK MY FAMILY,

MY JOB, MY FUTURE TO DEAL WITH THIS."

SO THE PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE ON TEND TO BE,

LIKE, REALLY EXTREME IN THEIR THINKING.

AROUND THE TWO MONTHS AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE RALLY,

HE ANNOUNCED THAT IT WAS MORE STRATEGIC

TO HAVE WHAT HE CALLED A WHITE CIVIL RIGHTS PLATFORM.

HE, IN HIS MIND, COGNITIVELY,

BELIEVES THAT HE HAS DISTINGUISHED HIMSELF

AND SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM THE CONNECTION

TO FURTHER LEVELS OF EXTREMISM AND COMMITMENT.

SINCE TWO MONTHS, WHEN WE FIRST MET,

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF ACTIVITY.

YOU'RE THREE DAYS AWAY FROM THE...

I GUESS WE COULD CALL IT THE ANNIVERSARY

OF THE UNITE THE RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE TO CALL IT UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 2.

FROM CHARLOTTESVILLE UNTIL NOW,

THE PLATFORM HAS CHANGED SOMEWHAT.

YOU HAVE RE-BRANDED, ESSENTIALLY,

AND ARE NOW CALLING FOR A WHITE CIVIL RIGHTS PLATFORM,

WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN LAST YEAR.

AND I SEE THAT THERE'S BEEN SORT OF CONFLICT WITH NEO-NAZIS,

TO THE POINT WHERE YOU'VE ACTUALLY TOLD THEM

THEY'RE NOT WELCOME AT YOUR RALLY,

WHICH I THINK IS WONDERFUL.

I THINK, AT THE END OF THE DAY,

IT'S NOT WORTH GIVING UP ON JASON.

HE'S AT AN EARLY STAGE

OF APPROPRIATENESS FOR INTERVENTION,

AND IT IS NECESSARY AND MORE BENEFICIAL, I BELIEVE,

FROM THE PHILOSOPHY THAT WE APPROACH

COMBATING VIOLENT EXTREMISM FROM,

TO PROMOTE ENGAGEMENT, RATHER THAN TO SHUN AND TO DIVIDE.

VIRGINIA'S GOVERNOR HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY

AS CHARLOTTESVILLE MARKS ONE YEAR

SINCE THE DEADLY WHITE SUPREMACIST RALLY THERE.

ONE YEAR AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE,

A VERY DIFFERENT SCENE HERE IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL.

MY NAME IS JASON KESSLER.

I ORGANIZED LAST YEAR'S UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY,

AND I ORGANIZED THIS YEAR'S RALLY.

A HANDFUL OF WHITE NATIONALISTS,

JUST TWO DOZEN, GATHERED WITHIN SIGHT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

LEGIONS OF COUNTERPROTESTERS SWARMED THE CITY.

LOVE, NOT HATE!

LOVE, NOT HATE!

LOVE, NOT HATE!

WE CAN POINT THE CAMERAS AT THESE RALLIES

AND MAKE JOKES ABOUT KESSLER AND HIS INABILITY

TO GET ANY KIND OF CROWD NOW EXCEPT COUNTERPROTESTERS.

BLACK LIVES MATTER!

BUT HERE'S THE THING --

9% OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SAY THAT NAZI VIEWS ARE ACCEPTABLE.

THERE'S A MOVEMENT THAT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE SHROUDED,

THAT SAYS, "WE JUST DON'T WANT CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

WE DON'T WANT THE CHANGE OF TRADITIONS."

THEY USE THAT AS THE TRAPPINGS TO GET FOLKS IN.

THE NEFARIOUS THING IS THAT WE'RE LOOKING

AT THE SHINIEST, LOUDEST OBJECTS...

...WITHOUT REALIZING WE'RE SEEING A POLITICAL DE-EVOLUTION

THAT EXPLOITS FEAR.

IT'S NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS NATIONALISM IS NOW AN INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT.

CLOSE THE DUTCH BORDERS

FOR IMMIGRANTS FROM ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.

DEEP POLARIZATION, DIVISION --

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THIS IN SOCIETY?

I THINK WE'RE FACING A PERFECT STORM.

THE KIND OF PEACE AND SOCIAL HARMONY

THAT WE HAVE BEEN SO LUCKY TO LIVE IN

IN SO MANY OF OUR WESTERN COUNTRIES

IS PRECARIOUS.

EACH OF THESE GROUPS HAS A VERY CLEAR STRATEGY

TO ENGAGE THOSE THAT AREN'T YET THEIR HARD-CORE BASE,

AND THEN ALSO TO UNDERMINE THOSE THAT OPPOSE THEM.

AND THEY HAVE TOOLS AT THEIR DISPOSAL

THAT ENABLES THEM TO REACH AUDIENCES AROUND THE WORLD

IN NANOSECONDS.

BUT WE HAVE THOSE TOOLS, TOO.

WE NEED BUSINESSES INVOLVED, CITIES INVOLVED, ORGANIZATIONS.

WE NEED CREDIBLE VOICES. WE NEED INFLUENCES.

WE NEED TO HAVE A WHOLE-SOCIETY RESPONSE TO THIS.

AND I BELIEVE WE CAN TURN THE TIDE.

BUT WE NEED TO DO IT.

AT THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS ONE OVEN.

IT BURNED ABOUT FIVE, SIX CORPSES PER ONE HOUR.

BUT IT WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR THE CAMP.

WE ALL HAVE ELEMENTS OF HATRED

THAT ARE POTENTIALLY VERY STRONG IN US.

NOBODY COULD SAY EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY.

THERE WERE SO MANY MOMENTS THAT WE THOUGHT THAT,

"IT'S ALL OVER."

WE KNEW THAT IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF TIME.