All language subtitles for Episode 05 Collateral Damge

The jury
deliberated about 45 minutes.

They came back with
a decision of death.

A majority
of the jury advise

and recommend to the court

that it impose the death penalty
upon the defendant,

Theodore Robert Bundy.

The court is adjourned.

You tell the jury
that they were wrong.

So many women died,
and I just felt like,

Why am I still alive?

I should be dead too.

I can't imagine anybody
doing what I did.

Having this relationship with
somebody who's become so iconic

for being the most horrific
person in the world.

I didn't really start
rebuilding my life

until he told me
the truth from Florida

when he called me
in the middle of the night.

Yeah,
I asked him specifically about

the Florida murders.

He said he felt like he had
a disease like alcoholism,

like the alcoholic that
couldn't take another drink.

He told me there was just
something he couldn't be around,

and he knew it now.

Well,
I finally knew the truth.

Yes, he did those things.

I didn't feel like I was really
free to move forward until then.

I just had to hear it from him.

But to know that he was
out killing people...

when we were still
in a relationship is just...

it's just really a...

a hard idea to incorporate,

to integrate into my life.

That fact invalidates
what we had.

It seems like nothing was real
between Ted and I

and my daughter.

I don't give a fuck
whether he loved us or not.

It makes no difference.

Do you think
it matters to your mom?

Probably.

Ted Bundy is not
just another death row inmate.

Convicted of three
murders in Florida,

suspected of a great many
more in Washington State,

Oregon, Utah, and Colorado.

Ted Bundy became infamous...

I'd just moved to
the University of Florida,

and one of my professors
was very active

in Gainesville Citizens
Against The Death Penalty.

And he would invite
people over to his house,

people involved
in different cases,

and there was Carole.

And we
became good friends.

She talked about the circus
that was the trial,

and Ted's side of it,

and how she could believe
that he could be innocent.

She married him at
the sentencing part of a trial.

- Will you marry me?
- Yes, I will.

And I do hereby marry you.

She was
very much protected

and surrounded by people
who did not question

whether he was innocent
or guilty because they were

attached to
the death penalty project.

Carole Boone was
the woman that had approached

my editor and offered
me the meeting.

I went, we went out to lunch,
and Carole explained

her relationship to Bundy,
that she was kind of

working on his behalf
and advocating for him,

and wondered if I'd like to be
in correspondence with him.

I thought she was very smart.

I was very impressed with her.
I was of course skeptical,

but she was all in.

She had...

You know, she committed her
life to this in ways that

were difficult to witness.

They were going to
build this life together,

where she would
get him off death row

and they would have a family.

She was
going to save him,

and that goes back
to her history

of her 15-year-old
brother drowned

in a neighbour's pool.

She definitely felt responsible
and very guilty

about Frank's drowning

while she was supposed
to be watching him.

And so that was one piece of...

I need to save,
I need to redeem,

and I'll save this man.

You know, there were Christmas
cards that went out to people.

You know, Ted, Carole, Rosa,

and even the dog print
of Carole's dog.

And they were
trying to be normal.

They had not had
normal lives.

Normal was a big word.

I feel like
me and my daughter

were about the realest things
that he ever had in his life,

that we represented something
that he really wanted,

and that he tried to maintain.

It was so easy for me
to revert back into...

um...

thinking of the first years
we were together, and...

You know, I've wondered,
was that just all a big act?

And that's part of the reason
I kept that scrapbook

full of snapshots, was like...

you know,
it shows what we were--

what we had together
in the beginning.

Ad if they weren't real, then it
just makes me feel like this...

I'm as crazy as Ted was.

I had to go
from the place of love

and tenderness
to the place of how...

how does this person

enjoy to tear women apart

with his bare hands?

Why would anybody...

do such a thing?

It's hard for me to look on
those pictures and see him

treating me so tenderly,

and to really believe
in that any longer.

Do you remember
that camping trip

with your brother?

Well, there were several
camping trips like that.

I could be about nine or ten.

Maybe eight, right?

On one hand, I'm curious
about where it is, and...

you know, I must admit that
right now I'm thinking about it,

seeing this,
and on the other hand,

I couldn't care less.

It kind of sucks
to have to say it,

but I wouldn't-- I really
wouldn't want this picture.

There's no joy in it.

Absolutely none.

There was then,
but not now.

He could do a million of these,

but it doesn't outweigh one...

just one of the victims,
you know?

One of those people.

It only takes one person
that he killed,

it makes it all just
go to shit, you know?

Ten years ago tomorrow,

The Supreme Court
of the United States

reinstated the death penalty,

and tomorrow a man
named Ted Bundy

was going to die
in Florida's electric chair.

He's been granted a last-minute
stay of execution

pending an appeal based
on legal technicalities.

The call came to a
young associate, and he said,

you know, There's a warrant,
and we need somebody to file

an application for a stay of
execution in the Supreme Court.

And he asked me,

and asked another
young associate,

Polly Nelson,
if we would take on the case.

Associate walked
in my room and asked,

Do you want a little
pro-bono project?

And I thought, My god,
that's exactly

why I became a lawyer.

I mean, that's
a lawyer's dream,

is to represent
somebody on death row

against being
executed by the state.

I was a brand-new lawyer,

and this was my
very first legal case.

I could picture him alone in
his cell waiting to be executed.

You know, this is
extremely personal for me

to identify
that threatened soul.

When I was 10 or 11,

I just remember after a rain,

worms had ended up
on the sidewalk,

and the water had receded
and they were struggling.

And I felt so sorry for them

that then I made
a mud bath for them,

and I put them
in the mud bath,

because they seemed
so despicable,

and that that was the reason
I needed to help them,

because nobody else
was going to help them.

I went to the prison
for the first time to meet him,

and they put us
in the lunchroom,

basically where
the families met,

and I was shocked.

It was not what I was expecting
from a maximum-security prison.

He showed me pictures
of his daughter

and his wife.

Polaroids that the guards
would take for a fee

on family day.

So I looked at him
and I thought, Okay, now,

what can I see in this
man that would alert me?

But I saw nothing.
There was-- there was nothing.

No sense of guilt.

He was humble and quiet, and...

and I couldn't recognize danger.

No sense of it whatsoever.

I think
he wanted to impress us

that he was a good guy.

He wanted us to respect him,

I think, as a...
you know, as a person.

To not be recoiled by him.
To... you know,

to sit in a room and
have a conversation with him,

and not, you know,
hold our nose.

I felt I held
his life in my hands,

like a worm or a kitten.

And when you have someone's
life in your hand,

you don't make a lot
of judgements about...

the bigger picture.

It becomes...

non-negotiable.

This person is going
to die if I drop him.

He was exhausting.

Obsessive, demanding, moody.

Always needing.

As if she didn't
have enough to do.

Come on, Carole,
tell us how he feels.

Shut up.

What'd Mr. Bundy
have to say today?

You shut up, too.

- What did Mr. Bundy--
- Shut up!

She was
just tired of him.

The letters became
more and more infrequent.

And the stay of
executions were starting

to become less
and less probable.

After he
was convicted in Utah,

that was in...

that was March 1st of '76.

I was completely devastated,

because I just
couldn't get a grip.

I knew I had to put
my life back together.

I started seeing a counsellor,
and he told me

that if I continued to drink
he wouldn't see me.

He said, You've
got to quit drinking

if you're gonna get well.

I finally got sober
in a recovery program,

which was pivotal.

And just working,
working, working,

to like rebuild my life.

Until then, I was not a very
good mom to Molly, for sure.

She's a
really strong, wonderful,

smart young woman,
and she does quite well.

But there's not any way

to give her back her childhood.

You know, nobody
sets out to drag their child

through this, and it has
to be a terrible feeling

that this all went so wrong.

And I know that she did
the very best that she could.

And I don't have
any feelings of...

...blame or anything
like that about it.

It wasn't her fault.

But it was a really
challenging time for me.

I did things that were so
reckless, because I didn't care.

I tried to drink myself
to death, I believe.

I felt like a rabbit
in its hole waiting to die

during parts of my drinking.

I just drank till
I would fall asleep,

because I wanted my life to be
past now so it could be done.

A federal judge
today refused to put off

the execution, and unless the
US Supreme Court orders a stay,

Bundy will die.

Ted had never
admitted to Carole anything

but that he was innocent.

But just before it looked like

there were no more
stay of executions,

he had run it out,

he called her and asked

if he should...

tell them where
the bodies are buried.

They call it
bones for time.

And that was his way
of telling her

that there were bodies
that he knew about,

and that he had actually
killed all those people.

That call was just...

devastating for her.

She was really angry.

I'm surprised she
talked to him at all.

And he wanted to talk to Rosa,
and she said no.

So there was no
goodbye for Rosa.

So, he wanted to
confess to law enforcement,

thinking that that
would ingratiate him to

the governor for...
in cooperating.

And so I said,
Okay, well, you'll have to

describe one to me first,

so I can see
what that sounds like,

and what is it that
you're going to say.

So... he's very
reluctant to start,

and we're sitting in this small,
this time,

room in the Warden's office,
just on a small table,

and he's got his hands
on the-- on the table,

and his whole persona,

his whole physical being,
is darkening.

His arms are getting dark,
his face is getting dark

and he...

goes to a different place.
He was in a different place.

And for the first time,
I felt afraid of him.

What I remember
about him describing

that attack...

he was kind of driving around
maybe thinking about it,

he saw a hitchhiker,

he decided to take
the opportunity.

It wasn't quite as deliberate
as some of the other ones.

And it was very important to him
that he knock her out,

because he didn't
want her to talk

because it ruined
the sensation.

If they started to talk,

he would lose his resolve,

and he wanted
to remain resolute.

He described taking
her into the woods.

He described...

assuring her that he was
going to let her go,

and he described saying
that he wasn't going to

be able to let her go,
to himself,

because he would be caught.

And he would look at me
while he was describing it

to kind of see
how I was taking it,

to see if he dared
go on further without...

me being unable to continue
to represent him, really,

is what he was concerned about.

And I...

wanted to show him
I could take it,

and so I didn't
show my revulsion.

I didn't show my sympathy
for the victim

as he told that story.

I had joined forces with...

um...

...a guilty
and remorseless killer.

In an effort to
win a stay of execution,

Bundy has begun
confessing to many murders

he had previously
denied committing.

Bundy confessed
to all eight Seattle killings

and 15 more in Oregon,
Utah, and Colorado.

He gave police information on
dozens of other unsolved cases.

Bundy associates have
contacted the governor's office

seeking to delay the execution
by three years or more

so that he can tell his
story to western police

and solve what may
be dozens of murders.

The governor is saying no.

He never
confessed to Susan, did he?

He wouldn't
talk about Sue.

He would talk about the others.

I think at one point there
were a couple psychiatrists

that asked him about
the different girls,

and when they came to Sue...

he said...

I don't want
to talk about her.

I can't talk about her.

So...

you know, in my mind,
I think she got to him

a little bit.

I'd always
thought it was very odd

that he didn't reach out to me
before he was executed.

I just had a feeling he would,

but he didn't.

My mom had been
going through a time

of spiritual development
where she...

took classes and prayed
and meditated,

and I was going
to community college.

I had moved back home
with my mom,

and I was doing rather well
for the first time

since this all transpired,

and I came home
from school one day

and there was a letter
from the jail,

and it wasn't addressed to me,
but I opened it anyways.

My mom wasn't at home.

And it said,

I have found God.

I've been working
on my spirituality.

It was like this person
over thousands of miles

had been able to intuit

what she would've
wanted to hear.

And there was no way
I was gonna let him

have that hook
into her again.

There was no way.

So I put it in the fireplace
and I set it on fire,

and I never mentioned
that it arrived.

She's got a piece of her
that responds to him,

and I didn't want to see
that piece be exploited again.

I watched that throughout
this entire journey.

Florida state
officials say Bundy's

last minute appeals are
simply acts of desperation.

They call Bundy
a master manipulator,

and they vow that
despite all his talking,

the state will strike no deal
to delay Bundy's execution.

You don't think
he'll be executed on Tuesday?

Not if we get a stay.

I've never been
a believer in the death penalty.

So it was like I never wanted
him to be executed, but...

...not because of who he was,

but just because I don't
believe in the death penalty.

I guess I went numb.

I just couldn't
really think about it.

My daughter and I
spent the day together.

We went to visit
a friend up in La Conner,

and we just tried not to...

to tune in
to what was going on.

I found the crowds outside
the prison, I mean,

it just was really
bizarre to me

that they'd be
out there cheering.

The execution
was scheduled for 7 am,

but we had to be at
the prison at 5 am.

And then there's sort of a whole
ritual that happens, you know?

There's a...
they have a, you know,

a buffet breakfast
for the witnesses.

You know, some of
the detectives

and, you know, lawyers
were there.

You know, it was like
a big celebration for them.

You know, they were--
they were finally winning.

At 7 o'clock
this morning,

guards led Bundy
to the death chamber.

At first, he seemed startled.

He looked taken aback

by the electric chair
when he entered the room,

but he immediately
regained his composure.

He sat down and started
looking around the room,

making eye contact with people.

He acknowledged me,
and I acknowledged him,

and I think that settled
him down a little bit

when he saw me.

And then, you know,
he made his final words,

and they pulled the veil down,

and I looked away.

I mean, I didn't
look to see--

I mean, you could hear
what was going on.

You could hear the,
you know, the...

the electricity, the jolts.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't think
it was a good day for

American justice, even though
people in Florida thought

that, you know,
This is sort of the pinnacle.

They had, you know,
taken out the guy

who they most wanted to execute.

I thought they did it in a way
that diminished all of them

and me and everybody else
who participated in it.

The signal has now
come shortly after 7 o'clock

this morning, Eastern time.

The signal came from the witness
window at the facility there

that Ted Bundy had died
in the electric chair.

When asked
for any final words,

Bundy made only
a brief statement.

His last words
was just,

Give my love to my family
and to my friends.

One of his
attorneys called us

after he'd been
executed and said

that Ted had asked her
to call us and make sure

that we knew that he loved us,

and she also said
he wondered why

I never responded
to his last letter.

And, I...

I mean, I didn't know what last
letter she was talking about.

So that's when Molly told me
there had been a letter

that had come.

You were
protecting her, weren't you?

I guess I could've lied and
said it was lost in the mail,

but I didn't.
I told her I burned it.

And she accepted it
very quietly,

but I could tell it hurt
her heart that I had...

robbed her of this closure,

this last interaction.

But I wasn't sorry.

I'm not sorry at all.

And I'm especially not sorry
that he went to his death

wondering why
she never wrote back.

Good.

Maybe she's done
with you, you know?

Maybe she's got no interest.

And I'm not sorry for him to...

believe such things
at the time of his death.

What were you
worried that might have happened

if she'd read the letter?

That she
would be distraught,

that she would be
connected to him,

that they would then correspond.

That she would
grieve his passing

in a very active way.

That he would somehow
get his hooks into her.

Yeah, she'd seen
that many times before, so...

it wasn't a stretch
of her imagination.

When I heard
the news that his execution

had gone through...

it was a big let-down.

I didn't feel celebratory.

I didn't feel happy.

I didn't feel sad.

I felt compassion for all of
the victims and their families.

He was a thief.

We got him.
It's over.

I mean, it's great.

We heard it on the news;

we heard everything about it,
and I remember saying to my dad,

It's gonna be
a good night tonight.

I did, I felt that.

I said a great prayer to Georg,
It's over, baby.

You bet.

It was a good night.

I felt real good about it.

Yeah.

He had to be stopped,
and that was the only way.

But it was hard for us.

Yeah, there's always
a flip side, isn't there?

There's another mother,
another family,

and...

the death penalty
is controversial...

in our hearts.

It's not as clear-cut
as people think,

and when you saw the circus
outside the courthouse,

that wasn't us.

We never...
That's nothing to celebrate.

No.

This is
another loss of life.

Another mother
losing a child,

another family with a tragedy.

Another family trying
to reckon with a horrific event.

Vivian Rancourt
joined the program.

Her daughter, Susan,
was killed by Bundy

back in 1974,

and Mrs. Rancourt was
asked if she had any words

for Mrs. Bundy.

First of all...

We send hugs to her too.

I talked to her
on the phone

the day after the execution.

Well, I've said it before,

and I'm glad to be able to say
it directly to one of the moms:

we don't know
why this happened,

and we feel so
desperately sorry for you.

We didn't want our son
to do these things.

We have two beautiful
daughters of our own,

and we know how we would feel.

I am sorry.

I know you are.

And we don't hold any resentment

or hatred towards
you or your family.

It was just...

two mothers...

that had lost a child,

but she didn't
have to apologize.

She didn't do this.

Her son was sick.

You should know
that the men in our family

did not feel like we did.

I want to be honest about that.

My Dad, he wanted to
slash his balls off.

I mean, my dad was very clear
about what he would do

to Ted Bundy if he was left
alone with him for a moment.

My husband too, would have
just kicked him from here

to hell and back.

No, the men didn't exactly
feel the way we did.

I wrote a letter
to Vivian Winter and said

how I agonized over
her daughter's death

and all these deaths
for my whole life,

and how sorry I was
that this had happened.

And she wrote me
this beautiful letter,

and she said that she felt...

that yes, it was an experience

that's hard to describe
how devastating

it actually is to have
your child murdered,

but at the same time
as the years passed,

she did not want him
to take her whole life

away from her...

by allowing her
to remain in sadness.

She wanted to go forward
and be happy,

and she was feeling happiness,

and she was making
a life for herself

that was not controlled
by Ted Bundy.

And I so much admired
and respected that,

and I took it on.

This is what I want.

We're not going to...

let him...

continue to perpetuate misery.

We're gonna live our lives.

Come on into
my abode, my home.

Some things
make me really depressed,

in a...

almost debilitating way,
where I...

I will sit in this
chair for days.

I'll sometimes stay in
this camper for two,

three days at a time.

I don't know.

I'm not really afraid of
not having a normal life.

I've gotten used to life
being kind of a bit of a...

you have to kind of jimmy rig
your way through life sometimes.

I don't recommend it
to everyone

to live your life precariously,

but if I know I have enough
to keep shelter and food

for my cat and I,

that's the most important thing.

When
Ted was executed,

I had been sober for years.

It was probably the thing
that saved my life.

I also
started hiking a lot,

spent a lot of time
out in the woods.

I had a really nice
group of sober friends,

so I was putting
my life back together.

My daughter and I
both have talked about this--

the fact that
we lived is a huge...

I mean, so many
people didn't live,

and so when we're struggling to

get our life back on track,
it's kind of hard to like say,

I've got these
problems with life,

when we're alive,
you know?

It feels like
we should be able to--

that that should be enough,
that he did not kill us.

I have watched the parents
of women talk about their loss,

and it just breaks my heart.

Because I'm mother
of a daughter,

I can understand
what a big loss that is.

I mean,
as much as I can,

I've forgiven myself...

and for me, I'm hoping
that this is the end of...

my participation
in anything related to Ted.

Recently I had
lunch with my niece

who's 12,
and she had just, um...

come to understand that I had
represented Ted Bundy,

and she came to
know him somehow,

and so she was asking me
questions about him,

and I was starting
my usual talk about,

Well, the law requires
this and that, and...

I really couldn't
go on with it,

because all I thought about was
as a young 12-year-old girl,

she shouldn't have to think
that there is some balancing

between someone
who would prey upon her

and something else,

that that was something that
I would have balanced for her,

on her behalf.

There were times
when the rules and regulations

of an organization
seemed to preclude

my taking that opportunity,

but I didn't let any
of that stand in my way.

I just felt that
you just go forward,

see what happens.

One of the things
that troubles victims a lot

is the question of,
Why me?

Why me?

And because of
all my experience,

I knew there isn't an
answer to that question.

You move on,
but it all is still

part of the big
weaving of your life.

It becomes part of the fabric,
the tapestry of your life,

and it's--
so it's never gone.

You learn how to put it

into some kind of
manageable perspective.

Even though
I was victimized,

I wasn't a victim,
and I mean, my husband knows,

but I've never
directly talked to

my own children about it,

because, you know, I'm Mom,
so I just don't want to be...

You know, we want
to be Mom and Dad.

I mean, I just wanted
to do normal things,

be a normal person.

I didn't want to be
marked as a victim.

Ever.