All language subtitles for Intervista a Bergman.ENG

Ingmar Bergman's first television series,
Scenes From a Marriage,

was made 13 years ago.

In it, we meet Johan and Marianne,

who believe themselves
to be a happy couple.

The leading roles are played
by Liv Ullman and Erland Josephson.

They bare more and more
of their souls in each episode,

both to themselves
and to each other.

In unflinching close-ups,
with everything extraneous peeled away,

Bergman moves in close on his actors.

The series met
with international success

and struck a chord
in relationships worldwide.

I wrote this very quickly
and for the sheer fun of it.

When my wife Ingrid
transcribed it, she said,

"This won't interest anyone.
It's much too private."

And I agreed with her.

It was private
both for me personally

and for the friends
I had based it on.

But they never recognized
themselves in it,

but then, to my immense surprise,

it seemed that everybody-

- Seemed to see themselves in it.
- Yes, in one way or another.

Not only in Sweden,
but throughout the world.

And that was a surprising discovery.

To this very day,

I still don't know
the reason for that.

Well, it might be this:

It deals with people...

who are emotional illiterates.

They have no self-understanding.

They know nothing about themselves.

They live their lives.

They're educated and talented.
They've read all the books.

They know everything.
They're oriented in their surroundings.

They have all the resources.

But they can't handle
the simplest of emotional ABCs.

They have no access to them,
no education in them.

The funny thing is

that the girl, Marianne,

knows intuitively
that something is wrong,

whileJohan, in male fashion,

hates to "speak up" or "have it out."

He believes that if you don't speak
about something, it doesn't exist.

Perhaps there was something
very elementary in this story

that people could relate to.

Then there were lots of people

who were upset because
the children were left out of the story.

I could never respond to that,

except to say it would
have been a different story.

This is this story,

and there are thousands
of variations on this theme.

I wanted to tell a story

about people ignorant
of their emotions and senses...

about how people lack insight

into the reactions of their inner soul,

both their own and those
of others close to them.

But the fact that it went
right to the hearts of so many people

must mean there are quite a few
emotional illiterates out there.

Don't you think so?

Perhaps most of the audience
would say,

"Look how crazy they're acting."

But in secret they might admit,

"I could imagine myself acting
just as crazy."

I don't know.

It's so hard to analyze

people's attitudes.

I always try to avoid doing that.

It seems they're acting
very much on their own,

as if you've lost control over them.

Marianne is developing in one direction
and Johan in another,

and you seem neutral towards both.

We can't imagine what you think.

Maybe that's the point.

I'd like to think

that I started out
with firm resolution,

but then these characters took over.

I was often very surprised
at their way of reacting.

I remember one thing
that surprised me immensely.

That was the sexual antagonism

that became so obvious.

One was under the impression
that their tenderness and everything -

that their sexual relationship
was okay.

But then suddenly
they started fighting about sex,

which came as a surprise to me,
and that was a very astonishing discovery.

But later on I realized

that people with
heavy social demands on them,

with demanding social roles to play,

will, in the end, get back
at each other on a sexual level, too.

At first -

I grew a bit tired of them

towards the end of the story.

When they meet again after many years,
they've let go of all those demands.

Yet they're deeply bound to each other,
even on a physical level.

Marianne writes in her diary

about how she was rewarded
as a little girl

whenever she was
obedient and pleasant,

but when she was assertive
and misbehaved, things didn't go well.

Likewise, Johan tells
about himself as a little boy.

It seems you think
their difficulties as adults

have to do with the child
that lives within them

and their childhood experiences.

Very much so.

I'm no professional psychiatrist.
This is just my personal opinion.

But I think our childhood
is more decisive

than people generally
are willing to admit.

And what happens to us later

can either cast a shadow
or shine a light

on what's already been created -
or ruined -within us.

But whatever befalls
our subconscious mind

before the age of two or three,

and during those
incredibly sensitive years

approaching and during puberty,

until finally there's an outline
of a human being, round the age of 20 -

it can often be very hard
to revise and correct all this.

In the meantime, there's probably
a lot of aggression stored up.

Aggression is a peculiar issue,

because in this country

we have a very peculiar
relationship to aggression.

We are so terribly inhibited
in that regard.

We're afraid of our anger.

All those wise counselors
in the media and elsewhere

keep trying to tell us there's nothing
wrong with being angry.

But I know from my own childhood,

and from that of my generation
and those of even younger generations,

how terribly suppressed we were

when we expressed fury,

anger or rage.

Or even just bad temper.

So it's part of our upbringing.

Perhaps things have improved and
become more sensible now. I don't know.

You lived in Germany for nine years.
You speak about us, the Swedish nation.

If you compare it
with the climate in Munich,

did you find that people were different
in terms of their rage and aggression?

Well, let's just say
we were 1,200 miles further south.

I'm terrified to speak
of national characteristics,

but I think there is a basic feature

to our upbringing,
something very Lutheran.

As we became "de-Christianized..."

we remembered the law
but forgot the gospel.

You know, law and order

and sticking to the letter of the law
is more important

than the whole issue of love,

which we manage to forget.

So how is it, then,
that you're so close to your anger?

You're famous for your anger.

So they say.

Well, I think it's inherited.

I think that becoming

extremely angry
and out of control on the job...

is unprofessional
and shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It's just destructive
and makes people anxious.

A person might throw
what's known as "constructive tantrums,"

but there you've still
got yourself under control.

It's a controlled, directed rage.

But the uncontrolled fury-

As Luther said, " There's no taking back
a word once it's in flight."

That applies to any word
you shouldn't have spoken.

These are dangerous matters.

You know, I used to be
so quick-tempered,

mostly due to a profound
lack of patience,

and, of course, fear and insecurity.

But as fear diminishes

and understanding increases,
you don't need to get that angry.

Scenes From a Marriage is mostly
about aggression and how to deal with it.

Johan and Marianne
are at first taken aback

as true and genuine feelings
come pouring out of them.

But once they permit
themselves to get angry and react,

they learn something
about themselves and each other.

At the time, the series sparked
heated discussions about married life.

The show's ratings increased in proportion
to the characters'aggressive outbursts.

Seeing the couple on television
ignited something in many viewers

that affected them long after
the series was over, for better or worse.

One thing that made me very happy

was that divorce statistics

in Denmark increased enormously.

This made me incredibly happy.

Why?

Well, maybe because
people saw other people

actually discussing things
with each other.

They may say dreadful things,

and you don't have to stand for that
or take all the blame.

You can pull away.
And so they did.

Maybe there were people who had
had divorce on their minds for years,

and so they came to a decision.

Maybe everything got much better.

It's also said that
after the last episode in Sweden,

appointments
for family counseling doubled.

I find all that so amusing.

Now, after all these years, I don't know
if it would have the same effect.

Our lives are changing so quickly.

Whatever was considered
to be truth then,

what was important and urgent,

might feel old and stale today.

I can't be the judge of that.
We'll see.

So you were glad that people
took hold of their lives

in a way that helped them grow?

Yes. To my astonishment...

something that was incredibly private

and concerned a small circle
of acquaintances

had become common property,
and that was very satisfying.