All language subtitles for La.Controverse.de.Valladolid.1992.DVDRip.XviD.en

The Controversy of Valladolid

Based on a Spanish papal tribunal

1550, Valladolid, Spain

My dear brother receives the blessing of our St Father.

In nomine patris et Filii et spiritus sancti.

Amen.

Letís pray God which grants here his light to us.

My dear brothers,

since, by the grace of God

the kingdom of Spain discovered

and conquered the Indies of the west and that

some call already the ìNew Worldî.

Has for the time now raised

difficult questions that nothing in

the world history could predict.

One such questions and the most important

never received

a clear and complete answer.

Thatís why we are here!

This new world has natives who have been conquered

and subdued in the name of the true God.

For nearly thirty years, some rumors

have been spread in Europe saying that the natives

of Mexico and the Islands of News Spain

are wrongly treated by the Spanish conquerors.

These rumors, that enemies of Spain, Netherlands, England,

France, can have exaggerated reached His Holiness the Pope.

He was highly moved.

More especially that these maltreatments occur

in the name of our sacred religion.

The Holy Father shows his compassion

for the population of the new lands

and it seems that his instructions

have not been always respected

neither the law nor the payments

for the crown.

Today the Holy Father sent me

to you with a precise mission.

To decide, if these indigenous

are completed and true human beings,

God's creatures, our brothers

descending from Adam.

Or they are, as some maintain,

a distinct category,

or even subjects of the devil himself.

At the end of our debate the decision that I will take will be ipso facto

confirmed by the St Father and will become therefore irrevocable.

We are here, in Valladolid

in this convent where Brother Gregorio

has had the kindness to welcomed us

some witnesses and participants

and first of all the very famous Brother

BartolomÈ of the Scasas

who knows the new World well

and who several times took defense

of these indigenous.

Opposite side we have master Sepulveda himself.

His philosophical works are very well known.

His erudition and the penetration of his spirit

will be precious.

If among us somebody desires to speak

let us know by raising the hand.

I hope that God will assist us

and by his grace, we will keep

conscience and dignity.

Brother BartolomÈ you have the first word.

Eminence

Our Lord Jesus said:

ìI am the truth and the lifeî

I will try to speak the truth

about those that we are

removing their life.

Because it is the truth we are destroying them.

since the discovery and the conquest of the Indies

the Spanish have not stopped enslaving

torturing and massacring the Indians.

what I have has to say is so dreadful

that I do not know how to start.

We could fill an enormous book.

take your time.

Since the whole first contacts.

Spanish have been consumed

by the thirst for gold.

It is all which they claim

gold! gold! bring us gold!

So much that the natives said

"what do they do with all that gold?"

They must eat it.

All is subjected to gold, all!

Also since the beginning,

the poor Indians are treated like animals

deprived of reason.

They are branded with their owner's name

to their face!

sold from owner to owner

branded again and again!

These marks accumulate on their faces

who becomes like draft paper.

They die per thousands

in the mines

with ungodly stench.

These mines are worse than hell, dark and wet.

Vultures circling above the mines,

so many they hide the sun.

you also spoke about massacres.

yes! Eminence it is per millions

that they were exterminated.

Yes! by millions

like beast in a slaughterhouse.

by which procedure?

Every possible way!

impaled on spits them by groups of thirteen

set over fire and cooked.

or hands hacked off

then released in the woods

and told to "spread the words"

What words?

Carry the message!

Show to the others who we are.

yes!

Why groups of thirteen?

To honor the Christ

and the twelve apostles.

Yes! I am telling you the truth.

The Lord has been honored,

by all human horrors.

Everything imaginable!

Children held by their feet

and their skull craked against rocks.

Or cooked alive, or drowned

Or thrown to starving dogs

which bite into them like hogs

Bets made on who could

disembowel a woman in a single stab!

Brother BartolomÈ you are speaking about

sad miseries of war...

War! what war?

These people were not at war.

they came to us all smiling,

their faces open, interested in us,

laden with fruits, presents.

And we brought to them death

in the name of Christ!

Eminence! this is blasphemy?

This sacred place permit everything to be said

beside it's all known to God.

All what I saw, I saw it being done

in the name of Christ! I saw the Spaniards

tear the fat of a living breathing Indians

to rub on their own wounds! Alive! I saw it!

I saw our soldiers hack off noses, ears,

a tongue, hands, women's nipples

a man's penis, hack off

like a tree limb! for the fun of it!

To distract themself! I saw, in Cuba,

in a place called Caonao,

Spanish soldiers

There they sharpened their swords on stones,

then they advanced to a village and said:

letís test the edge of our weapons?

A first Spaniard drew his sword,

the others did the same,

and they disemboweled at random,

all the villagers!

All massacred! Blood everywhere!

You were present?

I was their chaplain, I ran crazed everywhere!

It was a spectacle of horror and terror!

I saw it!

Another time I saw a soldier, laughing,

as he stuck his knife into a child's guts,

and then this child running away

holding his innards.

Again in Cuba

They were getting ready to kill

one of their chiefs without any reason

and burn him alive.

A monk approached the man

to talk about our faith.

He asked him if he wanted to go to heaven

or to suffer in hell.

The cacique told him:

"will all Christians go to heaven?"

"Yes" said the monk, "some do".

"Then" said the cacique,

"I prefer to go to hell instead of being

with such cruel men."

I saw so much cruelties

that no one would imagine.

No words, no stories

could describe what I saw.

Eminence, Christians have lost their fear of God.

They have forgotten who they are.

Yes, millions, I did say millions!

In Cholula in Mexico and Tapeacas

entire population had their throats cut!

in the name of St Jacques!

And it was easy! Because

these men did not have any weapons like us

nor of horses.

Do you know Eminence

in certain place Spanish use the blood

of these men to water their fields.

From time to time a Captain

will tell the soldiers:

"to cut off chunk of thigh, and feed it to the dogs "

as if they were sides of mutton!

In some camps! There are shelves of human flesh!

Thighs, breasts hung on hooks!

The Indians were fed of Indian flesh

it was cheap!

Some said the Spanish eat it too.

Enough!

Enough!

It is in the human nature, Brother BartolomÈ

to speak a lot, without thinking.

I let you talk,

I notice your emotion, your anger.

I listened well.

But I must remind you that

it is not this question

that concerns us.

We should not decide

on the cruelty of the Spanish.

We must decide on the nature and quality

of these indigenous.

Do you understand me?

yes I understand you

thatís why I am asking you,

What are they like?

I suppose that we will not retain the assumption

that they are servant of the devil.

well!

I mention this legend only to show its excess.

Satan has no border,

it would be too easy to put limits.

He is everywhere!

Within each of us!

So, what are they like?

As Colombus himself said,

the first who met them

"I cannot believe there are better men"

Meaning?

They are beautiful Eminence.

They are peaceful and meek like sheep

They want nothing from you.

Generous, open.

They always welcome you well?

Always!

No lies, no trickery?

With a total ingenuity.

They cannot lie.

I cannot say it better.

They were the picture of the paradise.

Do they seem intelligent?

They do. Absolutely.

Like us?

Without any doubt.

They appear sometimes very ignorant

and very credulous.

They were impressed by omens.

The emperor of Mexico wanted to sacrify himself.

Montezuma! yes it was said, I was not there.

An antique belief predicted their

savior would return from Orient.

Cortes a clever captain,

who was your friend I believe,

was aware of this prophecy.

He played along from the beginning.

But they quickly understood

that Spanish did not come from heaven.

When Montezuma met Cortes

the first time with splendid gifts.

He told him:

"I am of flesh and blood like you"

Are they capable of Christian feeling?

Of course.

They welcome our faith.

But look at the example we give.

What can they think of God, that Christians,

who slaughter them, claiming this is just and right?

Do you know what a man told me one day?

Tell us.

He told me:

"yes I feel a little Christian,

because I can already lie a little."

Tell us now.

How do they react to those atrocities?

Eminence I told you.

They are so friendly, and we strike them so hard

they could not fight back.

so they have been driven to despair.

Mothers have killed their babies

to keep them from being our slaves.

More infants are born dead,

because of certain herbs the mothers take.

Do you remember, Eminence, the Ecclesiasticus's words?

Which verse?

It was a shock for me.

I came across it one day by chance.

The bread of the poor is their life.

The one which deprives them is a murderer.

These creatures live without love of life.

Man do not touch woman,

to avoid any descendant.

They are crushed by disease,

brought by us, by raping them.

Yes, they lost any desire of life.

An entire nation

dying in the name of Christ.

Soon there won't be a single soul left.

So, according to you Brother BartolomÈ

they are God's creatures.

They are our brothers.

Redeemed by the blood of Christ?

Yes Eminence just like us.

Professor would you like to step in now?

if it pleases your Eminence.

Brother BartolomÈ

From boyhood you were attracted by the new lands?

I went there I was 18 years old.

Didnít you receive some lands?

yes!

I managed them well, I believe.

Later after your ordination

Did you celebrate

your first mass in the new world?

yes!

Once became member of the Church.

Didnít you try

several time to found one colony?

gathering natives and Spaniards

and putting them to work?

I tried, especially at Coumana.

You were in favor of a peaceful conquest.

You wanted to establish the country of true peace.

later! in Guatemala

it is not true it ended in a bloodshed?

At Coumana yes, my Spanish associate

turn out to be rabid wolves.

Isn't it strange that

it's always the Spanish's fault?

What do you mean?

Strange?

I listened you to speak, watched you

and a thing became clear to me

that I suspected according your writing.

From the beginning

these tribes fascinated you.

And we could even say, seduced you.

Why? I do not know.

But we can see that you speak with excess.

I speak about what I saw.

Excess in the facts!

not in my words.

However I would not teach you anything

by telling you that some travelers

like you, went there!

Accuse you of losing your mind.

If I lost my mind Eminence, why did you ask me to come here?

What am I doing here?

If I am crazy!

No you are not crazy!

but sometimes we think we are the truth

We all know that.

and something in you

got confused!

Scrambled!

from seeing the truth.

These Indians you talk about,

you were blind, to their true nature.

For example?

you insist that

they are as gentle as sheep

but if they are like sheep,

then they are not men!

Who can say that the man is gentle...

but Christ says it!

He never stopped saying it!

Turn the other cheek!

yes!

but he also says:

"I did not come to bring peace, but the sword"

The Christ likes this fight!

He loves this conquest!

or why would he have allowed

these massacres?

and why did he allow?

Because the Indians deserve their fate.

Their sins and their idols

are a constant offence to God.

The wars we conduct against them are just.

What sins are you talking about?

Who is scrambled here? Who is blind?

I ask you a question.

This young boy you spoke about

stabbed and who held

his innards in his hands.

You saw this?

With my eyes.

and what did you do?

I grabbed him, quickly spoke about God,

Christ as I could.

I baptized him, he died in my arms.

The salvation of his soul seemed important to you?

Of course!

I could not save anything else.

Eminence

I would retain initially this point.

The salvation of the soul!

You suppose then that they have a soul?

I will obviously reconsider this point.

Before that

It is necessary to remind you a number of facts

that the emotion

of my opponent may have masked.

We are listening.

First, a general question.

It is not established,

It is not perfectly certain

that all nations on earth, without exception

were created to one day become Christian?

Yes, this truth is established.

And we must do everything

to lead them to the true faith?

This cannot be argued.

All human beings without exception

are predestinated.

They are all part of the mystical body of the Christ,

because the Christian religion is the universal way.

The divine forgiveness was granted to all the nations

to renounce to the infidelity.

is it not true?

It is absolutely true!

Our Franciscan brothers even believe

that God's reign on earth is near.

And that celestial happiness

will soon manifest itself.

As soon as the last infidels are converted.

We are very convinced.

Our victory over the Moors

was the first prove

of the good grace of God.

The ease with which the new lands

were conquered

is another sign, very clear.

And how the Indians could believe

that we act in the name of God?

They are calling us "yares"

which means Demon!

For them we come from hell, lead by the devil.

You believe it?

Borther BartolomÈ do you believe

sincerely

that, the Spanish are demons?

Yes Eminence.

On this new lands, something demoniac

possesed the conquerors.

They became Demons, yes I believe it.

Demons?

Yes

So the faith I bring to them

is perverse.

What is the link between the Gospel and the sword?

How can I preach?

Instead of convincing them,

because of the blood we brought,

we false the picture of God.

But since you say that

the native are similar to us.

Then they are also Demons!

Forgive me, Eminence

I cannot receive this argument

It is badly articulated

Then rearticulate it!

Spanish soldiers are Human

but the thirst for gold transforms them into Demons.

Continue professor.

All the nations on earth intend to be Christian,

To be touched by the words of Christ.

Then we discover

an unknown population

that never heard about our Lord,

or redemption, or the cross!

Ah! but yes!

We found evidence of crosses.

No!!

No!!

Nothing serious!

You vainly tried to prove

that this continent had been visit by apostles.

This is false!

Never the word of Christ was brought there before.

What does it mean?

It means that they are not God's creatures.

And I will prove it.

Initially like we said.

By the extreme easy fight.

300 Spanish soldiers subdue a mighty empire

of 20 million inhabitants!

This will not be seen as the hand of God?

No event in any time

canít be compared to this conquest.

Even disease was on our side.

The small pox epidemic was the work

of God to clear up the road!

The infidels were dying like flies!

Because God wished to exterminate them!

Today,

they are forced to demolish their temples in Mexico,

many die every day.

Crushed under the rocks!

How not to see

a divine punishment?

Same for the mines!

I know that sometimes

It may look like human cruelty.

But how to explain that natives

obey to the Spanish so easily.

Are they not already folded by the hand of God?

And through in hell!

It was also said that

in the mines they die because of their libertinage.

Of their sodomite habit.

But what am I hearing!

Libertinage in the mines!

Brother BartolomÈ!

Eminence, shall I laugh or cry?

Tell me!

Be quiet, please

be quiet! But I can't!

You claim to see the signs of God everywhere!

What does that mean?

To see only the signs which are good for us!

Put God on our side!

by saying God is my interest!

This justifies my crimes!

This time you go too far!

No one here may question God's choice!

I categorically ask you to keep quiet.

Go ahead Professor.

Assimilate the Spanish to Demons.

What aberration, what madness.

The natives themselves recognized that the conquerors

were sent by God.

They were convinced.

Call Indians "innocent"

I don't follow you.

They sacrificed to their idol, thousands,

tens of thousands of victims.

80 thousand for the consecration

of their Mexico's temple.

This number hasn't been proven.

But it is the most

barbarian!

The Bloodiest nation!

Sodomites, Yes!

And... Cannibal!

You forgot to mention this.

Their belly full of human flesh.

They killed Spaniards and they ate them!

Some using Christians' skins as clothes for dance!

And you speak of paradise.

You said that they cannot lie.

Yet they tricked you.

Continuously!

As soon as people can speak, they can lie!

These Indians are ferocious savages.

Not only it is right,

but it is necessary to subdue them

to slavery and their spirits to our true religion.

Let us assume the absurd,

that they are innocent.

Our war will not be justified?

A war to protect the innocents

from their tyrannical chiefs.

whose killing, eating their own.

Professor I repeat it, we are not here

to speak about the war.

These conquests are done.

We are here the nature of these Indians.

If they have a soul like ours?

If they can pretend to the eternal life?

Give me your opinion.

Aristotle said it best:

"Some human species are made to

rule over others."

Is it the case here?

Yes Eminence.

They are slaves by nature.

This statement requires evidence.

They ignore the use of metal,

of firearms, and wheel.

They carry their burdens on their backs

like beasts during long walk.

Their food is disgusting,

like animals' feed.

They paint themselves and worship horrible idols.

I will not talk again about human sacrifices.

They are known to be stupid like small child or our idiots.

They marry a lot.

They donít know the nature of the money

and ignorant of the value of things.

They trade broken glasses for gold.

So what!

Itís not because they don't adore gold and money

Is it a reason to treat them as animal?

Isnít rather the opposite?

Brother BartolomÈ you will have your words later.

Nothing will be left behind.

For the moment remain quiet.

Professor

According to you

the possession and the use of the firearms

would be a proof of the divine protection?

A clear proof.

However the Moors,

they have firearms.

They use them very well against us.

They copied theirs from ours.

Another point:

You report the bloody sacrifices to their gods.

Yes! cruel gods, horrible !

Like these people.

It is indeed a demoniac horror.

We agree.

But

If they are not at the same level of human being

as we are.

If they are closer to animals.

Can we blame them for these sacrifices?

You see my point.

I understand the subtlety, your Eminence.

They can be blame for human sacrifices

only if they are human.

Eminence

I say, for the moment,

their ignorance and naivety know no bounds.

And us!

Were we not naive and ignorant?

Did we have sirens and amazons?

men with head in their chests,

pygmies wraping themselves in theirs ears.

Eminence the world is full of dream and rumors.

This continent was unknown to us.

It grew up isolated

for thousands of years.

The encounter amazed everyone.

Because nothing was similar.

Even the animals, the trees were different species.

They didnít have, cows, sheep.

Why

in two such different worlds

should the human condition alone

be the same?

Eminence, all indicate

that God designed them under our power.

You must also know

that they are unable to understand

the simplest things.

Like the redemption of Christ

or the pardon of the confession.

They do not have any activity of the soul.

No idea of art.

I can't let pass that!

No activity of the soul!

At Mexico City, Fransiscans

opened a school

Isn't true?

Where the sons of the Aztec princes receive our education.

They have the same results that the Spanish.

Isn't true?

Some even learned Latin verse.

You said the sons of princes.

And their architecture?

Before we destroyed all their cities.

Cortez wrote to the King of Spain

that he never saw anything so beautiful on these lands

He said ìanything comparable in Spain,

the most beautiful thing in the worldî.

And this sentence:

"Some of us asked,

if what we see is but a dream?"

A dream!

The conqueror in need of power

cannot belitlle his conquest.

And their irrigation system? writing?

their arithmetic? their drawing?

their knowledge of the sky!

Their calendar,

more precise than our.

How barbarians without God

achieved so much?

Their societal structure?

Their zoos?

Nothing similar in Europe.

Nothing!

It was not our war.

Eminence

you have never journeyed to the New Indies?

No

I've not the heart of an explorer.

So to give you an idea

of their "art".

I brought one of their idols made out of stone.

Can I show you?

Now?

Since we talk about it.

Stop.

Remove the cover

It is one of their gods

called:

"The plumed serpent"

"Qetzacoat"

They worship that?

Yes, in all their temples

Temples that emit the vile stenche of a slaugtherhouse.

The monsters before whom they kneel.

Whom their priests,

if one can use this word,

open the breast of the living men

with a stone knife

and pull out their bleeding hearts.

It is indeed very ugly.

Horrible.

It is really repulsive.

How to compare this to Italians sculptures.

Or to Berruguete.

they think this is art?

Eminence

This is just one example, a sample

You should see their entire art

They make also frescos, fabrics

clay figurines.

They sculpt stones.

We cannot compare what is not comparable.

They have true artists.

With birdís feathers

Yes... we shall stop here with the feathers

Brother BartolomÈ you are very excited

you need

some rest.

Myself

I need to think.

We will resume this discussion tomorrow morning.

Who are you?

What are you doing here?

what are you doing here?

Stop!

Stop!

Stop!

what are you doing in this monastery?

We came from Mexico. We live there.

We heard about this debate.

Do you have farms over there?

Do you manage them?

Yes Eminence.

Mines too?

Yes some mines.

You arrived from there directly?

We arrived three days ago.

Come to see me after the dinner.

What is it?

It is nothing, it is mine.

Donít worry about that.

I suppose you're worried for your farms?

For your incomes?

That's why you are here?

It is normal.

Itís human.

If God put gold in earth, he meant for us

to find it and use it.

But

Do not think that Rome is not informed

of what's happening there.

We sent secret emissary.

We have their detailed reports.

Eminence

Our situation is not easy.

It took a large effort to put the land in culture.

The country is rude and hostile.

I have a brother who died there.

The Indians hate working for us.

Some time they prefer to die.

But life is nothing to them.

They kill themselves to pass the time.

I am not sure that when you're dead

time passes more quickly.

We do what we can for them.

We look after them, we show them our tools.

We teach them our language.

But naturally we are worried.

If our conditions will change.

If what was told to us is not true any more.

Are you a good Christians?

Certainly Eminence!

You go to confession? You take communion?

Every week Eminence.

We will have a bishop in our province.

Then trust the Church.

It is our mother to all.

No matter what the Church decides, it is right.

Always right.

Therefore you must show your obedience.

You can leave.

Tomorrow if you wish,

you can attend the debat.

Is it safe?

God speaks through many voices.

Anything else?

No, I am fine.

Good night.

Sleep in peace Eminence.

Let the light of our Lord be with us

today, as yesterday.

Amen

Yesterday Professor Sepulveda gratified us

by a blow of success

by producing his plume serpent.

It served its purpose.

Today it is my turn

to surprise you.

I asked myself what would be

the best way

to decide in conscience

and I finally choose to bring here,

to Spain,

a few specimens

of this Indian species.

It seemed to me having them here

It will be easer for us

to examine them at length

to see if they are or are not

like us.

Let them in...

Eminence you sent a mission there?

Yes it took months.

Apparently we have a man alone.

Who is in Spain since sometime now.

He is a kind of acrobat, I believe.

And then, a family.

The father, the mother, a child...

Their name is too complicate I cannot read it.

But that's not important.

They come from Mexico.

Let us examine them

without bias.

Brother Emiliano who learned their language

will be the interpreter.

To save time, I asked for

a doctor's report, on their physical condition,

which is in any case similar to ours

except for one difference.

The men have no beards

and hardly no body hairs.

What does that tell us?

I asked myself.

There is nothing in the scriptures that say

a man created in God's image

has to have a beard.

Does someone know about this?

One point I should like to settle!

Are we sure that their females

can be impregnated

by the Spanish?

Yes, it is certain!

There have been cases?

Thousands of women have been raped.

And impregnated?

Certainly! many of them.

I ask only because some said

that chimpanzee females in Africa

were made pregnant by Portuguese.

It turned out to be pure invention.

You confirm the fact?

Yes, Eminence. No question.

The children born from these unions

are viable and well-formed?

Unless exception, yes, Eminence.

I thank you.

Before we do anything Eminence.

These men and this woman are cold.

They come from a warmer country

They are sensitive to the cold.

They are shaking.

They are sick.

Most of those we brought back have died.

Encouraging the belief that they were weaker than us

and so God strike them down.

Blankets.

... language...

You speak their language?

Hardly a hundred of words.

Do you know them?

No Eminence.

By their clothes

which place they held in their society?

Hard to say , they put their festival costumes.

More and more, they dress like us.

Because they prefer our clothes?

Because they are forced.

Go close to them.

Ask them who they are?

This one especially.

Yes this one, here we are

If you wish to examine them more closely

Please do so.

... language...

He says he's the son of an employee of the Emperor's register

His parents died.

Now he works for the Spanish in Mexico

as mason.

Has he heard of the true faith?

Does he believe in God?

Ask him.

... language...

He remains faithful to his ancestors's gods.

To this horror?

Yes Eminence.

Nonsense!

Has anyone explained to him

about the miracles?

Many time, we even have to argue.

They heard about the Blessed Virgin?

Of course they are interested but...

Someone brings iron tool, a big hammer, go on!

What is their argument?

They say ìit is the belief of our fathersî

ìWe always worshiped these godsî.

ìWe don't want the antique rule of life destroyedî.

They have been told that these gods can not protect them?

That their Religion

is foolish and powerless before ours.

We told them?

And what do they say?

Their defeat shaked them.

Our preaching confuses, puzzles them.

They thought that nothing should have change.

They say: "Word of gods became obscure.

We do not understand it any more ".

Yes, "our gods choose to be silent"

"Who will comeback to give us the words?î

"nothing will be as before?"

"Should we disappear for ever?"

They are too thick to see the truth.

No! many have converted.

The reports I have seen doubt

the sincerity of these new "converts".

and Brother Emiliano himself...

This attachment to their belief is natural.

all the nations are attached to their thoughts

They are curious about us, as I said.

They look at us as we look at them.

They listen to us, they understand us.

Most of them follow us, but they were alone

for very a long time, isolated.

One moment

Yes

I would like to say to Brother BartolomÈ one thing

Very simple.

Say it simply then.

Two things.

Either they are like us.

Created in God's image and saved

by the blood of his son.

In this case they cannot be allowed to deny the truth.

Or

they are another species.

What is your sincere feeling professor?

They are from another category.

And born to be dominated.

As form rules matter,

a soul, the body.

a man, the animal.

a husband, a wife.

a father, a son.

It is a natural order.

Established for the good of all.

The one who was born slave

If he remains without Master he is lost.

He gets erased of this earth.

All of that it just a word games.

Sophistry!

We cannot decide on their nature

by logic.

I understand why logic bothers you,

you speak in contradiction.

You say they are gentle, humble.

And that the Spanish are cruel monsters.

And you say at the same time.

That they are like us.

We see that they reject our faith.

But if the Christ wanted it, wouldn't they be Christians?

Isn't this true?

Isn't this true?

The fact that they reject the Gospel is the proof of what I say.

They are by birth

set outside of the divine grace.

They do not reject Christ.

It is Christ who doesn't want them in his kingdom.

Cover them, cover them.

You, yes you.

Come here

Hit their Idol.

We shall see how they react.

Go ahead hit it!

You are not afraid?

Hit it, they are used to!

You saw that.

He almost reacted.

Yes, but his wife stopped him.

What does that prove?

it proves that they can think.

To estimate the situation.

Do they feel pain?

You wish to see?

Here, in a monastery!

Yes they suffer.

like us when they are struck.

What about psychological pain?

Can they be melancholic?

Yes I told you.

They have all the reasons to be sad.

Can they feel homesick?

Do they understand eternel damnation?

Yes they have a kind of hell.

and paradise?

Yes they live after death.

and they are the notion of the soul.

Do they believe in forgiveness of sin?

Do they believe in the resurrection?

Do they have a memory?

Do they have love for their God?

Do they believe in the Immaculate Conception?

Do they practice the prayer?

Do they believe in the purgatory?

Do they believe in St Sacrament?

Do they believe in the last judgment?

You, yes you, come here.

Go up to them.

Grabe the child.

Grabe the child and threaten to hurt him.

We will see then.

... language...

No! donít talk to them!

Back off!

and you, grabe the child!

threaten him, go ahead!

No Eminence, donít do this!

Seize the child, I am telling you!

It is over now! Stop, stop.

Put your sword in the sleeve.

Talk to them now, reassure them.

Tell them it was a mistake..., a game...

What ever you want...

Eminence, we must stop this examination.

It is a cruel and unnecessary.

They have the same heart as us.

Animals also defend their young.

Especially the females it is a law of nature.

Both males were not so brave.

One of them didnít even move.

It is not his child.

Precisely they donít have any fraternity.

No social bond, they are selfish.

Like barbarian in a virgin forest.

But this one is already corrupted.

He learned how to beg for money.

To lie, to please us.

The others are bewildered.

They donít understand where they are.

You said, they donít understand.

Imagine, yourself over there.

Subjected to a strange judgment.

in the medium of priest with feather.

could you understand?

Understand that it was decided

whether or not you are a man?

Often the Spanish welcome them with the smile

then stab their swords through their body.

My God so often.

He is indeed an acrobat?

Yes Eminence.

Which trick does he do?

He is a juggler I believe.

We need a break.

Tell him that we are watching him.

ÖLanguageÖ

They are dexterous with their feet,

like monkeys.

The clowns arrived, Eminence.

have them come in.

I ask to come here,

some clowns from the court.

Itís said that the faculty to laugh

only belongs to the Human.

We shall see then,

If your Indians have sense of humour.

Eminence, they are not

in the mood to laugh.

Laughter is spontaneous.

An excellent idea.

Have them come in.

Give them some room, quickly.

Make room to his majesty

To the justice of the king.

Bring the seat to his majesty.

Quickly! Quickly!

Bring the robber.

What did you steal?

Nothing majesty!

You obviously stole something

No!

If no, you will not be a robber

What did you steal?

I beg your majesty, I beg you,

One moment.

I struck him, I must confess.

Mea culpa...

For penitence.

Eminence I beg you to stop this masquerade.

For the respect of the sacraments.

The clowns have all the rights Brother BartolomÈ.

But this is not a farce.

We speak of these people

who suffer and die.

A real nation.

What bothers you,

it is that your Indians didnít laugh.

Their lips didn't move.

But how can they laugh.

A "robber" they don't understand this word.

They don't know the confession.

They did not learn from your teaching.

They are unable to learn.

They are insensitive to our mystery's beauties.

No!

I've told you, no!

They are sensitive like us.

They know the love and fear.

The most subtle emotions.

But to see them, to really see them.

We must look at them with other eyes.

Or we will never see them as they are.

Look at them like a mirror.

in which to seek our own face.

A face that you have forgotten.

In this mirror, can you see yourself?

At any moment.

I said it yesterday.

They have confused your spirit.

But look at them for once.

Forget your rhetoric and your papers.

And look at them! Look at them!

With human eyes!

Brother BartolomÈ!

Brother BartolomÈ!

Eminence!

Who is on trial here?

The murderer or the victim?

Brother BartolomÈ!

They laughed, this time they laughed.

I beg your pardon, Eminence.

But this time, they laughed!

Who saw them laugh?

Who else?

Yes I saw them, they laughed.

They laughed, it is true.

They laughed.

It is true.

Ask them if they laughed?

... language...

They don't even understand the question.

They understand very well.

I know them.

But they fear that we'll punish them

for laughing.

They are afraid of us.

We have lost their trust.

We have frightened them.

Send the clown away.

That's enough!

Go. Out, out!

Our time is short now.

I must take a decision this afternoon

before going to Rome.

Brother BartolomÈ give us a summary

in a few sentences.

Do not go over the massacres.

Human being like me

I don't doubt this.

They are my Indian brothers.

And I see myself in them.

I didnít prepare any surprise.

But when I see them.

When I look at them.

I hear the scream of spilt blood.

All these questions on their lips.

"Why are you killing me?

Why burn me and my temples

and my books?

Why butcher my children?"

The answers is always:

ìThey sacrifice men to their gods.î

And it is true.

Yes it is true !

But letís look at our history.

Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son to God !

And it is because he thought that God

would appreciate his sacrifice.

Our God, the true God.

Didnít always refuse a sacrifice of Human life?

He even gave his son in sacrifice.

The comparison is very excessive.

Eminence the sacrifice gives to God

the prove of our adoration.

These people as yet untouched by the true faith,

under the natural law, offer to their

false gods all they hold most precious...

A Suspicious argument, it put in parallel

a supposition and a declared fact. No sense!

Professor, it is up to me to judge, do not intervene.

To destroy their habits that we call barbarians.

We were even more barbarians.

How can they understand?

We are telling them donít kill your brother

under any pretext.

And then you kill them.

If they are our brothers!

Because if we believes Aristotle...

The reign of Aristotle is dead.

Aristotle is pagan who burns in hell.

Today we talk to the name of Christ.

The word of Aristotle was a terrible error.

Tyrannical!

Infernal!

All Christian philosophy condemns him.

What do we read in each page of the Gospels?

We are brothers.

We should treat others

as we would like to be treated.

The Spaniard ran wild like wolves

in a sheep pen.

But Christ said the opposite.

I send you like sheep

to the wolves.

Do you want to hear St Paul?

really hear him?

Listen to the apostle!

There is no Jew, nor Greek.

There is no slave, nor free man.

There is no male, nor female.

All are one front the Christ Jesus.

All one!

It is in their hearts that we must break their idols.

In their heart only.

How can there be Christian and slaves?

How?

What would you propose Brother BartolomÈ?

I learned one thing.

That the truth progresses by itself, fragile.

Always attacked by thousands of enemies.

Lies on the contrary have lots of help.

We must give them back their rightfull liberty.

Because they are free by nature.

The Spanish must withdraw from the new lands.

Otherwise Spain will be cursed.

and struck down by God.

No! it is precisely the opposite!

How so the opposite?

We will admire Spain

for having

rid the earth of a sanguinary and cursed species.

for having brought some to the true God.

for having taught them what we know.

and especially

Our work will be acknowkledged for revealing the truth.

Our meeting here,

Our discussion,

without precedent in the history of nations.

can only bring glory to Spain!

You truly believe that?

Yes I believe it!

I strongly believe it.

The question is not to give up the Indies.

We know well that it is a dream

and that we will stay there.

The question here, is philosophycal.

What should we do, and what can we do?

As you said yourself,

We must convert them, all Christians.

"Compelle eos intrare" St Luke said.

ìForce them to enter!î

Without this, no good in this life

no salvation in the other.

How to convert them?

How long? At what price?

This is the second part of the question,

And on this point Brother BartolomÈ we disagree.

You say: "Christian and slaves; No,

The two terms are mutually exclusive"

and I say, why not?

During some time,

While waiting for a complete conversion.

Because this is the most important.

You also say:

"The wars which we lied are not just".

And I say that a just war is one fought for justice.

Which is the greater good?

You speak through St Paul,

I answer through St Augustine.

ìThe loss of one single unbaptized soulî

Said St Augustin,

ìis worst than the

mortal death of countless victims,

even innocent.

The greatest good is the salvation of the soulì.

Thatís why we want to convert them, so hard.

Otherwise their souls are lost.

And nothing in this world is more precious

than their souls.

You admit then that they have a soul.

I desire to be well understood.

I say.

That they don't have a soul like ours,

of the same quality,

or even near it.

And we donít have any reason

to treat them like us.

But in the case I am mistaken,

Which is possible,

in case Aristotle is mistaken.

If their soul is similar to ours.

Then I say,

a soul is creation's most precious pearl,

that at any price we must save it.

Which is better?

A terrestrial life without glory,

lived in error and sin,

followed by an eternity of suffering?

Or a shorter life.

Harder perhaps,

and an early death.

But followed by an eternity of light

near to the true victorious God!

is there anyone here,

who doesn't know the right answer?

Are you finished?

Yes Eminence.

Who still wishes to speak?

Maybe you?

No, I feel everything's been said.

No one?

May I say something?

Certainly, come closer.

I am not so good at speaking.

I did not learn well.

But what I have to say

everyone should hear.

We are listening.

We came, my friend and I

To talk about our settlement over there,

about our life!

We have to work with them there's no choice.

But they are dirty.

Lazy, thieves,

They don't have words.

Why should they work to death for you?

Brother BartolomÈ you spoke enough, listen to others.

You must know one thing.

If we must pay them,

treat them like Christians,

take care of them.

that will take money. A lot!

Maybe itís not the place to talk money but...

Go ahead

And this money, it will have to be withdrawn

from the income of the crown and the Church.

Impossible to do otherwise.

This had to be said.

In what proportion?

An enormous amount

The whole system will have to be change.

Spain and the church will have to

send money there instead of receiving it.

Sure, a lot of money!

You, who know them well.

Tell me.

Do you think they have a soul?

A soul, I don't know!

What I do know is that they

refuse to believe in the miracles of Christ.

They would like me to do miracles!

Since I can't.

They don't have recognition

for what we taught them.

Taught what?

The Torture! The syphilis!

Brother BartolomÈ! Once more.

We didnít teach them the torture.

They already knew.

We gave them, tools, clothes, books.

Before, they were slaves

and we freed them.

This freedom they are not used to.

They abuse it, they run away,

they hide to avoid work.

They are weak and die of disease.

If we have to pay them,

better to give up the Indies.

Both our business and saving their souls.

This had to be said.

You don't speak so badly.

I speak bluntly Eminence.

We are going to stop here.

I will give my decision this afternoon.

Yes, come in.

Eminence, a letter from the King.

You don't read it?

I already know what the king whishes to say to me.

Others already told me.

My decision is made.

As I told you it will be confirmed by His Holiness

and by the whole Church.

The people of the new lands,

which is called the Indies,

are born from Adam and Eve, like us.

They enjoy, like us, a spirit

and an immortal soul.

They have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.

They are therefore our brothers.

They must be treated with the greatest

humanity and justice.

Because they are human beings.

This decision will be made public and proclaimed

through every Church

of the old and new worlds.

Eminence, forgive me.

Of course I respect your choice.

But did you really examine

the repercussions of these words?

Do you suspect me of lightness?

Not at all !

But you must know that you condemn

to bankruptcy all the Spanish establishments.

Professor did I give

the impression of not having thought about it?

Certainly not.

Do you believe that I didnít weigh my responsibility?

that I Have not prayed through these nights?

Do you believe that I donít realize

all the consequences,

that nothing will be the same?

Do you believe for a second that God

would abandon me now,

at this moment to choose among these creatures.

No Eminence.

We would make, however a great mistake,

by thinking that the Church,

can ignore the legitimate

interests of its members.

We are in fact very aware

of what a serious blow

this could be for colonization.

There is perhaps a solution,

that I would like to remind you of.

If it is Clear that the Indians

are our brothers in the name of Jesus Christ

endowed with a reasonable souls like ours,

on the other hand it is also certain

that inhabitants of Africa

are much closer to animals.

These inhabitants are black, very crude.

Ignorant of art and writing.

They buildÖ, some huts.

All their activity is physical, it is certain.

And since the Roman Empire,

they' ve been subdued and domesticated.

Some Africans have already made the crossing?

Yes, Eminence since the beginning.

They adapt quickly to the climate.

They are even rather resistant.

Who sends them?

Portuguese, they capture them and sell them

very expensive!

I can obviously only suggest this but...

Why not gather them up yourself

in sufficient quantity?

you'd be sure to have

a robust labor

and even less expensive.

I suppose that in Africa they are easy to find.

Their King sells them.

The Church would not oppose this?

Why would it?

Does the King oppose it?

Eminence that is likely to become a big business

and be out of control.

leading to wars, revolts!

Listening to you Brother BartolomÈ,

nothing can be worse than what we do already.

Yourself, If I recall

you had a black slave?

For a short time

And I never treated him as a slave.

You were satisfied with his service?

Very satisfied.

Did you not say yourself,

if I remember well,

that it was a very good solution

and you recommended it?

I said it, yes in my youth

to save the Indians.

But Eminence I changed, everyone changes.

Today I am ashamed of my words.

And I say on the contrary...

All right! All right!

... that African are human beings

like us, son of Adam.

and it would be a mortal sin.

We will not start again.

We are not here for that.

All right!

We will add a codicil

You will prepare a drafting.

In the name of His Holiness

I thank you for your help.

Grace to God for being with us

until the last moment.

In nomine patris et Filii et spiritus sancti.

Amen.

In the ensuing years after the Valladolid controversy,

Sep˙lveda continued to be the defender of the slavery

while Las Casas established himself

as the outstanding defender of the Indians.

In so doing, both of them significantly

expanded on their arguments.

Not surprisingly, the controversy failed

to materialize into palpable benefits for the Indians.

(Subtitles made by Jean-Marc Fontaine, 2008)