All language subtitles for Jacob.2019.1080p.WEBRip.x264-RARBG

I first met Jacob Appel,
it was the early 2000s,

and he came to Gotham
Writers Workshop

because he was interested
in teaching fiction.

And so I was the person
interviewing teachers

at the time, so I
interviewed him.

Then I saw something
on his resume

that made me do a double take.

I noticed that he was in
Harvard Law School at the time.

He wasn't about to finish it.

He was right in the middle
of Harvard Law School.

And this confused
me, and so I said,

OK, you're in Harvard
Law School right now.

He said that's right.

And I said, but you want
to teach a fiction writing

class in New York
City at the same time?

He said, yeah, that's right.

And I said, so you'll
commute back and forth?

It's a fairly long commute.

He goes, that's no problem.

OK.

And then I said, but
correct me if I'm wrong.

Isn't Harvard Law School hard?

Isn't there a lot of studying
that needs to be done?

And he said, no, it's
really not that hard.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I thought he was a
professor at Brown.

That's not a bad thing to be.

It really wasn't until
a bit later I found out,

Jacob Appel is a lot of
things at a lot of places.

I didn't know that.

Probably the most prolific
fiction writer I know,

and I know a lot
of fiction writers.

I had been teaching
playwriting at Hunter College,

and Jacob shows up
outside the door

as I'm admitting the
class, and he says,

I want to take your class.

And I say, are you
a Hunter student?

And he says, no, I'm not.

I'm in medical school and
I'm preparing to be a doctor,

but I want to take your class
because more than anything

in the world, I want
to be a playwright.

I think he gets it that he's
smarter than most people

and has more degrees
than most people,

but he's not a jerk
about it, you know?

Jacob and I have stayed in
touch since high school.

And each time I
talk to him, it's

like he had a different degree
or had done something else.

Wait, you're a lawyer now also?

Oh wait, now you're a doctor?

Oh cool, so now you got a PhD?

I mean, I can't keep up with
it, but it's really good for me.

He's very resourceful.

He's giving me
psychiatric advice.

He's giving me legal advice.

So I mean, he's a
good friend to have.

How he balances all
these things, why

he would want to balance all
these things, I have no idea,

but I think that's Jacob Appel.

Oh, this is my clapper.

You know in the films,
they have the little clap?

Oh yeah.

So I'm going to
announce the take--

You're fine.

--and I'm going to slap it.

And it will be near your faces .

Good.

Great.

OK.

Yeah.

Great.

OK.

Doctors Appel, early childhood.

I want to ask you, what did
you think when you first

heard that I was making a
documentary about your son?

I thought, why are you doing it?

That's exactly what I thought.

Who would want to see this?

You know, maybe you could
promote it among my family,

but I doubt that.

You don't have to answer that.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I do like being in school.

School is interesting.

If you think work is
more fun than school,

you have to go back to school
again to learn otherwise.

So I graduated
from Brown, which I

have to tell people is
a four-year college,

with a BA in English
and History and also

with an MA in European History.

And then I got an MA in
American History in '98

and an MPhil in 2000
in American History

from Columbia University.

I have an MFA in Fiction
Creative Writing from NYU.

I have a medical degree
from Columbia's College

of Physicians and Surgeons.

I have a law degree from
the Harvard Law School.

I have a degree in playwriting
from Queens College, CUNY.

I have a degree in
Bioethics and MS

from the Alden March
Bioethics Institute,

which is part of Albany Medical
School and Union College.

It's Union University now.

And I have an MPH from the
Mount Sinai School of Medicine.

All in all, do you know
how many degrees that is?

I think it is nine plus the BA.

Well, my grandmother would
have been very proud of that.

My grandfather would
have pointed out

there were still five
Ivy League schools left.

Do you know of anyone
who has more degrees?

Yes, there is a
gentleman in Virginia.

I don't know these
people personally.

It's not like we have
a little club of people

with many degrees and
we hang out at weekends

and brag to each other,
but a gentleman in Virginia

who has more than a
dozen, maybe 13, 14.

And then a gentleman
in Michigan,

who is married to an
administrator at a community

college or a small college,
who has more than 20 degrees

because he could
take courses for free

and he's been doing
it his entire life.

I suppose my next step is to
marry a college administrator.

And one can never
tell what will happen.

I mean, the fact that he's
a doctor and a psychiatrist

now, who would ever
have thought of that?

I mean, that would have been--

He might become a
rabbi next year.

We don't know.

All I can say is--

Oh, please, I don't know.

--he could become
whatever he wants,

but I'm not paying for it.

I met Jacob first year, first
semester at Harvard Law School

back in 1996.

He always just seemed to have
a lot of projects going on.

Yeah, I always did wonder
where he sort of got the time

to do all the
things that he did,

and not to mention
the mental capacity

which is, I think, in
a different universe

from most of us.

I figured that the
guy just didn't sleep,

which I later found out
to be pretty much true.

We all like to toot
our own horn a bit.

If we have
accomplishments, we like

to make them known in a
subtle way or an obvious way.

Jacob Appel is perhaps the
most accomplished person I know

and perhaps the most modest
person you will meet.

When you're in
conversation with him,

he won't slip these things in.

You have to find
them out on your own.

But you're going to have a
good conversation because he

is a fascinating person.

He's collected all these
degrees, which I don't even

know all of them, but
underneath all those things,

he's not just stacking them up.

He's kind of crossing
them over and creating

this interdisciplinary
way of life for himself.

As an adult, it seems
like he's trying

to synthesize this massive
worldview that encompasses

everything that he's
learned, and it's

complicated and hard and messy.

And in a way, being
a creative writer

and being such a
prolific writer,

it allows him to take
all of these issues

and sort of dump them
out into his stories.

This looks promising.

Is it fan mail?

Yeah.

This is a journal.

Since they sent me two copies,
I imagined I published it.

Oh, how do you like that?

I actually published a poem.

And you just found out by
getting the book in the mail?

They didn't email you
or send you a letter?

Oh no, I'm sure I had a
contract and an agreement

and all of that.

I just don't
remember it anymore.

That's great.

What is the poem?

How do you like that?

I have three poems.

That's very exciting.

What is the name of the journal?

The name of the journal
is the Delmarva Review.

OK.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Give me some numbers of
rejection letters and numbers

of submissions.

My estimate is I've gotten
about 21,000 rejection letters

from literary publications.

That does not include people
I wanted to date and employer.

One of my favorites is
this rejection letter

from a magazine called
City Primeval that

says do not submit any more
of your work to City Primeval.

The editor clearly
did not like the story

that went on to be published
in another journal rather

successfully.

So 21,000 rejection letters.

And how many acceptance?

Well, I've published-- and
this is a very rough figure.

I published roughly 215 stories.

I've had a dozen plays produced,
maybe a couple of times each.

I have 11 books
published now and I

guess four more under contract.

So that gives you some
sense of the ratio.

It's hard to remember
a time before I

was interested in writing.

So when I was a little kid,
I was interested in writing.

I wrote a novel in fifth grade.

We had watched the musical 1776
as part of Ed Grossman's class,

so I wrote a novel, 1777.

I picked up where
the musical ended.

But it was only about 80
pages long and probably

not very good, though
somebody may discover it

someday and discover
this with my masterpiece

and it's been all
downhill from there.

Jacob has published in every
prestigious literary journal

there is, just about, and in
many of them, more than once.

He's won all sorts of
prizes and fellowships.

So to most of us
who are writers,

he's very accomplished.

Hello.

I'm Alicia, and today, I
have another review for you.

Today, we're talking about
The Topless Widow of Herkimer

Street by Jacob M. Appel.

I'm pretty sure it's not apple.

It's spelled appel, I think.

Now, this book is actually a
collection of short stories,

and I didn't really think
they were going to be good.

I didn't really have high
expectations for this,

but every now and
then, you get a gem.

And this is definitely a gem.

And the way that they all
ended made you just sit and go

Buh buh buh!

Jacob, he looks under
rocks and finds characters

that most of us
either don't know,

or if we meet them on a daily
basis, we walk right by them.

He writes more about those
quirky kind of characters--

the locksmith from Turkey
who's living in Queens

and who's trying to
protect his locksmith shop

from eminent domain
to build a hockey

rink for a semi-professional
hockey league.

So I have a story
about an alien who

is sent by his planet to study
the ways of life on Earth.

So he describes himself
as a Latvian restaurateur

in a small town in Alabama.

And then an abortion
clinic opens up next door,

and suddenly, he gets this very
skewed view on American life.

My goal is to use unusual
things to shed an unusual light

on the way we live.

Jacob wrote a play
about three young women

who inherited a house from
their parents when they died.

And so one woman, to make it
clear that she owned her third,

she walled off her own
little third of the house

and wouldn't let anybody
into it and built

these platforms
and these ladders

where only she
would have access.

And we were all totally charmed
by the originality of his idea.

Nobody else had anything
sort of to compete

with what he had on his mind.

And I said, Jacob,
this could be put on.

And it was put on a
number of years later.

So my initial reading
of Jacob's story

was that these are stories that
are quirky for quirky sake.

And I had trouble
sort of reading them

at the level of sophistication
they really had.

I had to learn how to
read a Jacob Appel story.

And he said to me
a long time ago,

when we had these
kinds of discussions,

he would say, look, sometimes
it's not about how deep you go

but how far out you
wade from the shore.

When is an idea you have--

how do you distinguish whether
it's a short story, a novel,

or a play?

I read it, and if
there are characters

talking without scenes
then I know it's a play.

And if it's longer
than a certain length,

I assume it's a novel.

I mean as you formulate an idea.

You know what I meant.

I know exactly what you meant,
but it's a hard question

so I tried to deflect it.

I'd like to say there's
an easy answer to that,

but again, that's usually
a materialist explanation.

It's not that I sit here
with all these sorts of ideas

floating through
my head and decide,

I'm going to write that one,
and then realize it's a novel.

It's I decide, I'm
going to write a novel,

and then I have all these
ideas floating through my head

about characters that might
work in a novel or scenes

that might work in a novel
and I harvest all of them.

In Jacob's best work--

and there's a lot of
great work by Jacob--

in that best work,
what you see poking

through the surface
of that quirkiness,

of those strange premises
and outlandish characters,

you find that he's talking
about unrequited love.

That happens a lot
in his stories.

A character who wants to
love another character

or who wants that
character to love him back.

A character who has a longing
for another character and they

can't quite connect.

A character who struggles
to express a kind of love

or affection they have
for another character.

And the bizarre circumstances
maybe get in the way.

And then Rosalie.

I love all of these
dedications to Rosalie.

He talks about her
so fondly, and I

think, oh, I guess
for his entire life,

he will dedicate all of
his books to Rosalie.

And I think, how wonderful.

I've been married to the
same man for 56 years.

I've dedicated a few things to
him but also to my children.

But Jacob and Rosalie.

Constancy!

Rosalie Purvis, take one.

Sorry.

I remember meeting him at this
party and we wound up talking.

And you know, he
was just so funny

and we were getting
along really well.

And we had this sort of
intellectual connection

and spark.

It just seemed so organic.

Like, all of a sudden,
we were expressing

that we loved each
other and that we were--

or cared for-- you know,
had feelings for each other.

And so then we had like
a young teenage version

of a relationship.

But then very quickly, I
had to go back to Amsterdam.

How do we understand who we are?

We understand ourselves in
a lot of different ways.

One of the ways we do is by the
people that are close to us.

That how we interact with them
and how they interact with us.

They give us a window
into who we are.

Rosie is that person for Jacob.

It's so obvious to me.

Like, obviously, my
relationship with Rosie

is closer than my
relationship with other people

for various complex reasons.

The truth is, Rosie and
I have a very healthy

non-romantic co-dependent
relationship.

Ah.

How is it co-dependent?

It is co-dependent in that
many things in my life

don't become real until
I discuss them with her.

And I imagine the same is
similar in many ways to me,

and she is someone who, when
I need wisdom on something,

I turn to.

And she knows me so well that
she's not going to surprise me.

I often even know what
she's going to say.

But it's good to have someone
reflect that back to you.

I feel like we are each
other's best friends.

Even though the kind of romantic
part of the relationship ended,

revolved, we became really
close friends after that.

And in some ways, had
a deeper relationship

than we'd had even before.

But in some ways, I
feel like we don't

have a romantic relationship.

We didn't get married.

But we did wind up together.

We just wound up together
in a different way.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

The company I run,
One Day University,

is based on the idea that
people would like to go back

to college but just for a day.

No homework, no
exams, no studying.

Just listening to
college professors

who were renowned
on their campuses

to be really
fascinating teachers.

Please welcome
Professor Jacob Appel.

So I heard through
the grapevine--

Can you all hear me?

--that Jacob Appel was one of
the most popular professors

at Brown University.

So we contacted him to see if
he might want to teach a class.

It turns out, he's also
a well-known writer.

He's also a doctor.

He's also a lawyer.

On and on and on.

Bioethics is the
study of morality

and ethical issues at the nexus
of law and medicine or law

and health care.

I don't remember when he
first mentioned, perhaps,

going to medical school.

You know, I went
to medical school

and I knew I was the
math science nerd

and he was the literary
genius, and that's

how I thought we existed.

And I thought, well, I don't
really see him in my realm.

But I could tell that, for
this particular pursuit,

that he thought that he really
needed a medical degree.

What do I mean by
medical exceptionalism?

I want you to compare
this with barbery.

Let us say I walk down
the street one day.

The barber looks out his
window and he sees my haircut.

And he says, nobody
should walk around

with a haircut like that.

And he charges out with his
shears and he starts snipping.

My mother, by the way,
this is her dream in life.

We don't let barbers
do that, ever.

You cannot be a
beneficent barber.

There are laws against that.

In contrast, sometimes, you
can be a beneficent physician.

Bioethicists do two
very distinct things.

On the one hand,
they serve a role

in the health care
system in a hospital,

doing consults, offering
recommendations.

I've been involved in that
sort of work in the past.

And the other thing
they do, which

is much more of what I do
now, is offering commentary

on social issues
out in the world.

Writing articles, being
interviewed, publishing op eds.

I think there's a
difference between saying

I would do something
personally and thinking

one should be able to do it.

I have no particular qualms
with designer babies.

Parents to be able to
choose whether they

want to have male children
or female children.

I am fairly radical in
my views in the sense

that I would permit abortion
up to the point of birth.

I always favor the right to
physician-assisted suicide.

Under limited circumstances,
I favor euthanasia.

I think there should be
a financial mechanism

for allowing people
to sell their organs.

While I think bestiality,
per se, should be legal,

I think there may be
forms of bestiality that

transcend into animal cruelty.

And there, the government
might want to step in.

Well, I think on a
whole, I am fairly

libertarian-minded in
my bioethical thinking.

I think the goal
should be to let

people do what they
want to do unless there

is a compelling reason not to.

At its best, science
is all about humanism.

Jacob is a scientist,
but one could also

say he's a scientist
of the human soul.

And that's where his
artistry comes in.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

You cannot board non-psychiatric
patients on psychiatric units.

You've got to have a
psychiatric diagnosis.

And the other thing I do is
I'm the director of ethics,

education, and psychiatry.

I teach the ethics curriculum
in a residency program.

And there, my role is
a very different one.

It's not to advocate for
particular positions,

but instead, it's
to make sure people

think logically and clearly
about various complex issues.

Pediatrics.

In pediatrics, what
standard do we use?

Parents would have wanted?

No.

Oh, no.

Definitely not.

Standard of care?

What's in the child's
best interest?

The best interests
for the child.

The goal is to make the
students aware of ethical issues

and develop some interesting
ethics, because you're not

going to teach them
all of psychiatry

or all of psychoethics
in the course of an hour.

Then I wanted to plant a
couple of ideas in their head

about the kinds of situations
in the hospital that raise

legal issues or ethical issues.

Because they're not
going to know the answer,

but they may know enough to
step back and call someone

when they come up.

Jacob will teach students
who tend to be more

on the progressive spectrum.

And Jacob will not allow
those students to be

complacent in their ideas.

He won't let his students
be self-satisfied.

Just as it seems
that students are

coming to a certain
consensus, he

will always find a way to
puncture that consensus.

So I really feel
that in some ways,

that's a centerpiece
of who Jacob is.

He will write op ed pieces on
the question of medical ethics,

on euthanasia, things
like that, and he

will get a lot of
negative feedback

from people around
the country because he

is testing boundaries.

This individual,
bioethicist Jacob M. Appel,

calling for putting
lithium in the water

to make you behave yourself.

And they're talking
about it like it's

good they're getting the
public ready for lithium

in the water, which
is an antipsychotic.

I can't even continue.

And the guys have found a
video of this bioethicist.

In areas where lithium
in trace amounts

is in the drinking
water, there seems

to be a lower level
of suicidality,

and in the Texas counties
that were studied,

there's actually a
lower crime rate.

I just can't believe it.

They are drugging your water.

Lithium is a toxic heavy metal
that's also deadly and has

serious health side effects.

It's a hardcore
chemical lobotomizer.

[SIGH]

Would you say he
was a smart baby?

That's tough and I hope I
don't get in trouble for this,

but he went to preschool
in Branford, Connecticut

where everybody in Branford
has an average IQ of 12.

No.

No.

And the kids were
having trouble--

That's wrong.

--putting together
one-piece puzzles.

President Trump, you're
going to get into trouble

if you say things about
Branford like that.

OK.

You need somebody
to restrain you.

Branford is a place
where people live.

And that was such
a long time ago.

Who knows who lives
in Branford now?

Anyway, yes.

OK, so let's say he was
smarter than the other kids

in his preschool.

Yes.

OK.

That's clearly true.

I have known Jacob
since kindergarten.

We both went to the
same elementary school.

And he was always different.

And I think he probably
got less credit for it

when he was in elementary
school and more credit for it

as he's grown up.

He was always smart.

Everybody always knew he
was really, really smart.

And he wasn't smart necessarily
like math smart or multiply

all these numbers together
in your head or something,

and now that I'm an adult,
I see it in other kids.

He was just, like, odd smart.

But you don't really
gain a lot of points

for being kind of a weird kid
when you're seven or eight

or being really super smart.

His first sentence
was "There's a plate

of creatinine in the backyard."

Yes, that's true.

That's a substance in
nephrology and kidney disease

and that was his
first full sentence.

I sometimes think his
parents did a phenomenal job,

because I think it would be hard
to have a kid as smart as Jacob

and yet out of the norm
in a time of kids life

where it's very
important to be the norm.

Jacob wasn't the norm, and yet,
he navigated in his own way

and in a successful way
through all those times.

He was pretty
young at this time,

but he would come home and
say, I corrected the teacher

on so-and-so.

And I can think of
examples, like--

now, this doesn't
say great things

for some of his teachers,
but one of his teachers

thought there was,
I don't know, 365--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

--degrees in a circle.

And he said he corrected it.

And I don't know if he may
have been in third grade.

He said, no,
there's 360 degrees.

Like, she said an
alligator was an amphibian.

He said, no, no.

They're reptiles.

I think a lot of the teachers
learn that most of the things,

he was usually pretty right on.

Because again, he had
read a lot at that point.

There were five elementary
schools in our hometown,

and we went to this
one called Heathcote.

And I think when we
got to middle school

and we started mixing
with the other kids

in the other schools,
it wasn't like there

was a Jacob at each of
the other middle schools

or each of the other
elementary schools.

He was the only Jacob
in the whole town.

And he's the only Jacob
that I know in the world.

So it's not like, oh,
he's a quirky kid.

Like, he redefines quirky.

When we got into high
school, Jacob's, I think,

intelligence and width
really definitely stood out.

Again, because I think
when you're in high school,

you do get points for
being really smart.

It was almost like a trick.

Like, Jacob, say the names
of all the presidents.

And he would, in like
11 seconds or something,

he'd go Washington, Adams,
Jefferson, Madison, Monroe,

Adams-- and then, like, he
would just rip through it.

I can probably do it still.

Let's try.

Washington, Adams, Jefferson,
Madison, Monroe, Adams, Van

Buren, Jackson, Harrison, Tyler,
Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce,

Buchanan, Lincoln, Johnson,
Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur,

Cleveland, Harrison, Cleveland,
McKinley, Roosevelt, Taft,

Wilson, Harding, Coolidge,
Hoover, Roosevelt, Truman,

Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson,
Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan,

Bush, Clinton, Obama, and Trump.

So where are we now?

We are opposite Grant's tomb.

We're walking up
Riverside Drive.

So to our right is
the Sekura Park,

which was donated by
the Japanese government

in the early 20th century.

I believe 1912.

Tour guiding.

I do it-- I did a lot more
of it a long time ago.

I do it for special events.

I usually custom-design the
tours when people want them.

A lot of people want
a literary tour.

In the old days, getting
your touring license

was actually fairly challenging.

It was a very hard test.

There was this giant map of New
York that filled half a room.

And the administrator,
who was this elderly woman

with this battle ax who clearly
had been doing this for a very

long time, would point out
different spots on the map

and ask you what
was located there

and you needed to tell her.

You really had to know New
York City very well in order

to pass this exam.

And how did you learn
what you needed to know?

Well, one of the challenges is
there was really no guidance

on what you needed to know.

You just needed to
know everything.

So I read the blue guide to New
York City from cover to cover

and learned as much of it
as I could, and I still

barely passed.

We are now jaywalking, which
makes us true New Yorkers.

They redid Grant's
tombs, accouterments.

If you're interested in seeing
coffins, it has two of them.

So if anybody ever asks you
who's buried in Grant's tomb,

the answer is--

Let's see.

I mean, obviously, Grant.

That's good.

And Mrs. Grant?

And Mrs. Grant.

Very good.

Grant and Mrs. Grant are
both buried in Grant's tomb.

But not Julia Grant's pet cow.

That is an urban myth.

Although Julia Grant
did have a pet cow,

but he's not buried in the
tomb, to our knowledge.

And Grant was the
what president?

Grant was the 18th president.

All right.

Do you know the dates or
approximate dates of his--?

So I can figure it
out pretty quickly.

So Lincoln was
assassinated in 1865,

and then Johnson took
over and served till '68,

so Grant would have
served from 1868 to 1876.

But I believe one of the
reasons the presidents get

pensions is because
Grant died in poverty,

and Congress was determined
that no other president would

die in such a way
because it looked

really bad to have the
president begging for money.

So I taught Jacob in
AP European History.

And Jacob being who
he is immediately

became a person in
the class who everyone

expected great thoughts from.

He would often listen and
then the pearl would come out.

Some observation about whoever
it was or whatever activity

that we were doing,
Jacob would come through

and he would be able to say
something that we'd all go,

oh yeah, that's really good.

I wish I came up with that.

The debating.

The debating team.

Where he was very
good in debating.

I mean, came in--

it was one-on-one debate.

I think he was
very good because--

Because he won New York State?

Yeah, well that.

He eventually was number
one in New York State.

The number one debater.

I mean, I remember that because
he came home so late that I

was getting really
angry and angrier,

but apparently, if
you keep winning,

you keep staying
longer and longer

and going against
as it narrows down.

And he was the
last one standing.

But it's hard to have a dinner
conversation with somebody

who's number one in debating
in New York State one-on-one.

Let me put it this way.

At the top of my
resume, I do not

have listed 1988 New York
State Debate Champion.

Had you not mentioned
this, I might never

have thought about it
again in my adult life.

And one of the things
that I loved about Jacob

was that he totally
beat to his own drum

but really didn't care.

I mean, sort of
in an age where I

think people are really
self-conscious and trying

to fit in, Jacob really
stood out as his own person

and I think was super
confident about that.

Like, I don't know if you've
ever seen Jacob dance before.

Jacob is a phenomenal dancer.

He has his own style of dance.

I mean rocking out dancing.

Dancing with all
his heart and soul.

And I think a lot of people
would be super self-conscious,

but he was just having
the time of his life.

And that was Jacob.

He really just was really always
comfortable in his own skin,

and I loved that about him.

Still love that about him.

I'm actually glad
that we grew up

when we did because I
think if Jacob grew up now,

they would have medicated him.

They would have
tried to evaluate him

where on the autism spectrum
or something he might be.

And I honestly don't think
he is because he can be

quite social if he wants to be.

And somebody would
have tried to mess

with what was going
on there in some way,

and so I'm glad that nobody did
because I don't think we need

a toned down version of Jacob.

I like the full-fledged
one that we have.

He has a strange mix of being
super confident but extremely

humble at the same time.

He must know what a genius
he is, but I don't think he

sort of looks at himself
or sees himself that way,

which is incredible because
he totally is a genius.

No matter what the topic,
Jacob knows stuff about it

and has insights about it.

And I just love the
fact that he is somebody

who, while having all of this
knowledge and being so smart,

never makes anyone else feel
like they're beneath him.

He always treats people
in a very equal way.

And it makes Jacob somebody
who I could easily say, God,

I love this guy.

Well, knowledge and smart two
very different things because--

I wouldn't say
anybody-- most people,

you can cram a lot of
knowledge into them

and then it can
evaporate fairly quickly.

And if we choose the right
topic, I can know an awful lot.

If we choose quantum physics,
I can know very, very little

very, very quickly.

I'm not very talented at music.

I probably could not put
together your carburetor.

So it's a very
arbitrary mix, and I'm

good at some of those things.

Most of the things I
do are not things that

require a great deal of genius.

They are things that require
a fair amount of hard work

and a lot of blind perseverance.

How did this place
help shape you?

I think I've met some
very special people who

influenced me.

I had some teachers who really
took me under their wing

and cared for me more
than they should have.

There were lots of rules that
I've learned to transgress,

and I think I got my rule
transgressing education here

and then my rule
following experience later

on in medicine.

So it's a nice balance.

Would you ever consider
moving to a Scarsdale

or a Scarsdale-type community?

I would never move to Scarsdale.

You don't want to be
prisoner to who you were

when you were 15 years old.

And more importantly,
you don't want your kids

to be a prisoner to who you
were when you were 15 years old.

Expand on that.

What do you mean?

Why?

Who's a prisoner of anything?

So, if my kids went to Scarsdale
high school, all it would take

is one older teacher
who remembers me

to reconceptualize them as me.

And whether I was a great
student or a bad student,

I would be me, and I would
want them to be them.

So I don't really
understand the people

who move back to their
hometowns in this context.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

How long have you lived here?

Roughly 20 years.

Is there any way that
these books are arranged?

I know sort of where
different things are.

It's like, I'm renting an
apartment, not a library.

OK.

The pennies and the
change over here.

I'm just too lazy to
take them to the bank.

Eventually, I will
take them to the bank,

or the ceiling in the apartment
below me will fall through.

Most of the perceptions
about psychiatrists

are accurate and unfortunate.

It's that stereotype
where you start

talking to your psychiatrist
while you're lying on the couch

and he leaves the room.

And when an hour comes
back, he shows up again

and takes your check.

So on the one
hand, psychiatrists

are viewed as unwilling to
share their personal experience

and passive.

I think there are
many psychiatrists

out there like that.

I try not to be like that.

You don't want to share
too much to undermine

the therapeutic
relationship, but you also

don't want to not be a human
being relating to people.

I think another concern about
psychiatrists is many of them

go into the field
because they want

to solve their own
psychological problems

or deal with their own trauma.

Whether or not I have my
own psychological problems,

I'm confident it's not why
I went into psychiatry.

I think Jacob's a
wonderful doctor.

In a psychiatric emergency room,
which is his full-time job now,

your decision is
essentially, do you

admit somebody or discharge
them to the hospital?

Any time you discharge
someone, presumably, you're

taking a risk that
something bad might happen.

And even a lot of
the times when you

admit somebody, if you're
admitting them involuntarily,

you're temporarily taking
away their civil liberties.

So it's a kind of
high-intensity job.

And he has a comfort, I
think, in his own decisions.

I like the ER because on the
one hand, it's very discreet.

It's shift work.

So you work, you help
people, and then you leave.

And on the other hand,
most of the people we see

are very different from me.

So they're unlikely to
influence my writing.

They're unlikely to create
the kind of emotional baggage

that I'm going to
take home with me.

Jacob is a terrific
fiction writing teacher.

I've watched him
teach a few times.

He's really interesting too.

He makes interesting
points that I

don't see other teachers make.

I remember, one time, I
was watching him teach

and he was talking
about first lines.

And he read a few first
lines, and he explained,

the first line of a story
tells the whole story

if it's done well.

It's all concentrated
in that first line.

And he went through
some examples.

And it was fascinating.

I had never heard that before.

Realistically, you submit
to workplaces, and whether

or not they read the
second line depends on what

they think of the first line.

So when I teach my classes, I
emphasize that to the students.

Not just first lines but opening
pages, opening paragraphs.

It's not like your third
grade teacher necessarily

said you have to have
a hook, but there

has to be some reason for
somebody to keep on reading.

And if nothing interesting
happens at the beginning,

most people assume
nothing interesting

is going to happen in the
middle or the end either.

At the same time, you don't
want to start your tension

all the way up here at
some uneclipsable moment.

Basically, if your story
begins, I died on Thursday,

Friday is going to be
really hard to write.

So it's a balance.

I thought what
might be interesting

for the viewer is for me to
read the opening line from some

of his short
stories, these being

some of his short stories.

"Scouting for the Reaper.

Nothing sells tombstones like
a Girl Scout in uniform."

"Exposure.

Wednesdays and Saturdays are
my day off at the pharmacy,

but Saturdays my
wife is off too,

so I do my flashing on
Wednesday afternoons."

"Rods and Cones.

Another family crisis--
the rabbit goes blind."

"Coulrophobia."

This is wonderful.

This is a wonderful story.

"My father fancied himself
a shrewd landlord--

he refused to rent to lawyers,
the children of lawyers, even

a college girl who had law
school written all over her,

but he bit off too much
when he sublet to the mime."

He's really able to put
into his creative writing

a lot of these thoughts
and areas of knowledge

that he has from the other
elements of his life.

So it's almost like
that's why he's studied

all these things so much.

He's able to put them
into his creative writing.

I think Jacob writes about
the sublime human comedy,

but also, I think he's
a superb craftsman

and that his writing
is very beautiful.

And from time to
time, I embarrass him

and I say, oh Jacob, you
write like a real writer.

I mean, your sentences
and your paragraphs

are so beautifully wrought.

And he sort of
looks embarrassed,

and you know, and I
know he is a writer,

but there's that part of me
that is dazzled by his craft

because he handles
language so well.

I think there are
certainly people out there

who really enjoy my books.

There may be more that don't,
but they don't write me notes.

But no, I think there's a small
but devoted following of people

who really, for one reason
or another, like my stories.

And I like doing events.

I do book clubs, I do book
festivals, I do new stores.

I think I went on about
30 trips this fall.

So I'm really thrilled
to introduce Jacob Appel.

So I have written 215
stories, 15 books.

Everywhere I go, I am known
for one very short piece

of writing.

We've been living
together for eight months

when we adopted the hedgehog.

I want-- I write perfectly
competent short stories

that people enjoy reading.

[APPLAUSE]

Thank you.

Should I make it after someone?

Karen.

K-A-R-E-N?

K-A-R-E-N.

But I can't imagine
any author out there

who wouldn't say they would
like a larger readership.

Free copy?

Fantastic.

Of course.

Great.

Great.

You can't go wrong.

Thank you.

And when I listen to the
things you're talking about,

it inspires things in my mind.

That means a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Have you been in
therapy yourself?

No.

You never have?

No.

Why not?

It's like, there
are some people who

are really interested
in psychoanalysis

and learning more
about themselves.

I have no interest
in psychoanalysis.

I have no idea why
anybody would want

to know more about
themselves, unless you're

pathologically ill, which
I'm trusting I'm not.

For some people, knowing
more about themselves

can be beneficial.

For other people, it simply
is narcissistic indulgence.

If you keep peeling an
onion, eventually, you

don't end up with anything left.

What makes Jacob M. Appel tick?

I think it's what makes--

I wouldn't say everybody tick,
but most reflective people

and certainly most reflective
educated creative people tick,

is deep sense of insecurity.

The need to fill
the holes in one's

childhood even if one doesn't
know exactly what they are.

I think we are all driven by
a great sense of inadequacy.

I don't think my parents think
that I'm a failure in life,

but I doubt they think that I'm
as successful as I could be.

I mean, if you ask me
what my younger son

[Jacob's brother] does,
I say, he does law.

He's a lawyer and attorney and--

And that's what he is.

But if you ask me
what Jacob does,

I have to pause and say,
well, who am I speaking to?

Is this somebody that I can
easily say he's a psychiatrist,

or do I say he's an ethicist--

Or a writer.

--or do I say he's a writer?

For many people, they don't
know him as a psychiatrist,

they know him as a writer.

So I mean, all three of
those come into play here.

We don't say he's a lawyer.

We don't.

Oh, we do not say he's a lawyer.

So you had a date
the other night and--

And I-- I didn't tell a
joke, I just made a remark

that I thought
was rather amusing

and my date didn't think
it was rather amusing.

Do you remember the remark?

Yeah.

So my date was talking
about how she's

at an age where she's worried
that she may have passed

through that window of an
opportunity to find a partner

and have kids and all.

And to reassure her, I
told her that there's

a woman in India who
just had children--

this is true-- had children
at the age of, I believe, 72.

I said that with
modern technology,

anything is possible.

And then I added.

I said, this woman
had the child at 72

but she wanted to wait till 80.

But you know, she
got knocked up.

And I thought I was amusing.

My date did not.

This may be the one thing that
Jacob Appel is not good at--

women.

He has no talent
there whatsoever.

It's not that he's so wrapped up
in all of his life of the mind

that he's not interested
in having relationships,

but he has no aptitude for it.

None whatsoever.

I'm sorry to say.

Well, there are two
ways of viewing it.

One way of viewing
it is unsuccessful

because I'm single.

The other way of viewing it is
successful because I'm single.

He's so busy and he
keeps himself so busy

that maybe he just
doesn't need it.

He just doesn't need
someone to sit down and talk

with at the end of
the day or whatever.

I normally wouldn't
get this, but we'll

make this an exception.

You could get the fruit.

I could, but in
the movie, I want

to be remembered
for my indulgences.

You got what you want?

There you go.

No problem.

No problem.

Jake is very self-sufficient
and independent

and that doesn't
mean that I don't

think that if he meets
the right person,

he wouldn't maybe also have a
relationship with that person.

He's not the kind
of person who are

like they need to live with
someone in order to be happy.

OK, we're all looking for love.

I mean, maybe there are
a few people who are not,

but I think most people
either are looking for love

or have found it.

And I guess there are people
out there who have found

it who were still looking.

I don't want to be
the only person alone

in the corner in
the old age home

when everybody else is
playing cards in couples.

That would be very disturbing.

Now, the problem that is
Jacob's hours and his craziness

is unique to him.

It might be difficult
to sort of arrange

for a person to be fully in that
kind of world that he lives in.

You know, he writes
all the time,

and he goes out to
places where there's

going to be productions
of his plays,

and he comes up to
visit his grandmother

and he has lunches
with former teachers.

Part of his uniqueness is
that he is so focused in areas

that he wants to be in.

And there's an
isolation in that.

Are you happy?

I mean, happy is a strange word
because it sort of suggests

a uniformity of sentiment.

I am probably happy
more than I'm unhappy,

which I guess is a good sign.

I mean, anybody who's happy
all the time is an idiot,

and anybody who's
happy none of the time

really needs to be treated.

So I'm somewhere in the middle.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Part of me doesn't
believe that Jacob exists.

And in fact, when I ran
into Rosalie, his dear,

dear friend who he dedicates
all of his books to, when I ran

into her in a restaurant--
because I'd met her a few

times--

and she was dining by herself.

And I said, Rosalie, come on.

Fess up.

Jacob isn't real, is he?

And she sort of said,
no, he isn't real.

And I said, I knew it.

I knew it.

That it's all this incredible
sort of Houdini act.

Now you see him, now you don't.

And I bet you
anything, when you try

to look at the footage of
this video you're making,

nothing will be there.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Now that you've
been interviewed,

do you have a different
take on why I might be

making this film about Jacob?

Well, I'm absolutely
convinced you're not

going to make money on it.