Original subtitles

We are in San Diego. We are at the little rental that we have down here,

which has been really nice, like a port in the storm.

Yeah, so we've started documenting Liz's life right now.

You know, we have like people kind of constantly around us starting to capture

these moments because what we're going through right now, well, I mean, at its

simplest level, I feel like the reason why Liz has been turned into this

monster is because nobody knows who she is, right? And like in absence of

knowing somebody, it's really easy to make them feel other and scary.

Like it's easy to build up this myth around who the person is when you don't

know who they are.

So we've...

kind of made the decision that the best way for people to understand who she is,

is by just giving like radical transparency and, you know, as much

access as possible into our daily lives.

Everything from like, you know, putting the kids to sleep to, you know,

what we're building and everything in between.

um and but we don't even you know it's these are these are irrelevant human

systems like you know infections of frog embryos and stuff yeah yeah so like yeah

i just want to show that it works the magic show

I did testify in my criminal trial, and I was acquitted of accounts associated

with the charges on patients and patient testing, and I don't have

any money. I'm deeply in debt.

for the legal fees associated with my criminal case, but I do want the ability

to defend myself and would ask for your consideration in that.

Thank you, y'all.

Our work is in being able to make

Testing works.

Elizabeth Holmes built her company Theranos on this invention she called

the iPod of healthcare, a miniaturized blood analyzer that would disrupt the

$60 billion lab testing industry. It was, she claimed, quote, the most

important thing humanity has ever built. And Elizabeth Holmes became the youngest

self-made female billionaire in the world. She was also at the center of a

massive multi-year fraud. Each day I greet the sun.

And the earth fell to trees.

She says, I train my body for battle.

And I train my mind, too.

From ABC Audio, this is The Dropout. Elizabeth Holmes on trial.

You said that Ms. Holmes was manipulative. What do you mean by that?

You had these older men around her that she manipulated.

She just wasn't on. She had a job. I think she's really good at telling you

what you need to hear to keep going. She's pathological.

She told everyone it had to work, and it didn't work at all. They

really

run this company as a couple, and they

perpetrate this fraud as a couple. Prosecutors say he and Elizabeth Holmes

are partners who are doing everything. She claims that they could use one drop

of blood to test a bunch of different things, but it turns out that that's...

Technology did not work. She was convicted of four counts of fraud for

defrauding investors.

She was not found guilty of defrauding patients.

Ms. Holmes was not spoken to the media in 2016.

Her trajectory launched a cottage industry of podcasts, TV shows,

Halloween costumes, and the actress Amanda Seyfried Emmy Award winning

return as Ms. Holmes.

in the hulus the dropout the black turtlenecks the kabuki red lipstick the

green juices the dancing to lo wayne somewhere along the way miss holmes said

the person whoever that is got lost at one point i tell her that i heard

jennifer lawrence had pulled out of portraying her in a movie she replied

almost reflectively

Yeah, I mean, we have recordings of a lot of it, like 90% of the stuff that's

quoted in here we recorded.

Do you do that with me?

No.

Not yet.

It's probably a good idea.

The way in which they use words.

I mean,

we need to go back on a few of these things because it's just, like,

factually inaccurate.

Hey,

it's okay. You can come.

You're coming with us.

You're coming with us. Your voice has been heard. The council has spoken.

Yeah. That's Marge.

Yeah.

More apples.

More apples.

Do you want more bagel?

I'm all right. Thank you so much.

The world believes a reality about me that isn't true.

And so what is the reality?

And how did we get here where all these people believe these things that didn't

happen? How did that happen?

But you didn't commit any crime, you think?

I know I didn't commit any crime.

Can I tell you a little bit of an insecurity of mine?

Please. Okay.

I read that you asked General Mattis, to be on the board of your company.

And he's a military guy, but he's not a science guy.

So part of me maybe is a little insecure that you look at me as someone who

is uneducated on science and scientific

things. So I can't question you in a way that another person who is would.

So why me?

I think we've been thinking about this first and foremost as a human story.

Because you could have gone to science reporters and investigative, but you

didn't. Because what?

Do they suck or do you think they suck or something?

I don't actually at all. Okay, I don't know.

I mean, to me, the purpose of this was not to litigate the science.

Although I really hope people look at the testimony in the case and all the

documents that support that.

It starts with who I am and what my intent

was and still is.

I do want to say to you for just full transparency, I have read a lot about

um theranos and you and you know i do believe there is a lot of evidence

that points to the fact that you defrauded investors and

also deceived um you know regulators and uh the public

and and patients and um were involved in conspiracy

too

I look, I mean, I understand what people have said about me.

And I understand that people believe those things.

All I know is my truth and my

love for my family.

taken away from them.

That must be hard.

Do you want like a tissue or something? Hold on.

Because it's 12.20 now.

You have a ton of calls that you need to do.

I don't want to speak for you.

So

what

do you think you guys want to film next?

Well, I was planning to go work out, if you'd like to.

Oh. Thanks.

Pick your piece wisely.

What is this again? It's a pink pineapple.

In talking to Liz, it sounded like the vision she had with Theranos hasn't

died. Is this just kind of like a random thought, or are there plans for this?

No, there's not just plans, but there's plans in the works.

taken a lot of the first steps to make this happen.

And as it relates to her, her intention with this,

she hasn't stopped talking about it since the moment I met her.

Wow. The idea is to band back together and do it all again.

You know, committed to the cause.

Theranos 2.0. Yeah.

What is up first for you guys? You've got a 9.20 appointment for Ivy.

And we typically don't let go on the weekends because on the weekends there's

like a million people. What day were you thinking the bonfire?

I was going to call my brother and see what his availability is.

One conversation that we had yesterday with the guy who brought us to the

studio yesterday is...

That he said that he would be very willing to speak with you on camera, but

obscuring his identity. Why did you take the eggs over? What was she doing wrong

with mixing the eggs? I just wanted to help her so she could focus on talking

to you.

Okay. What I was doing wrong was he doesn't think that I'm mixing them

vigorously enough. She does it like that. She does it very lightly.

And therefore, the eggs don't taste as good because you... You really want to

make sure that they're well stirred. She's got it.

She's got it. Thank you.

How did you two meet?

We met at a friend's party on October 7th, 2017.

Yeah, we just... Sorry, I got distracted.

By what?

Just a thought.

What's the thought?

I was trying to think back to that moment, and I was just... I don't know,

there's so many things that went through my head in that moment.

Like when you met her?

Yeah. Like what?

Well, first, I didn't know who she was.

But you, did you know who she was in general?

Like, did you know who Elizabeth Holmes was at that time?

I did. Yeah. I mean, I was working in Silicon Valley and I had just toured her

building the week before because we were looking at renting her building. So like

I knew exactly who she was. I'd read a lot of the same media that everybody

else had. So how did you not recognize her?

She was like wearing a big hat and sunglasses and she had like a bandaid on

her face.

So I didn't know who she was. Why a band-aid? I had just gotten a husky, and

he'd scratched my face.

He was a puppy, and I had this cut on my face, so that may have also been part of

the idea with the sunglasses.

Was it love at first sight?

I think for me it was. Really? I don't know. Yeah.

I was, like, very flirtatious. I was trying to be flirtatious. You were?

Yeah, definitely.

What do you like when you flirt?

I just... I didn't know what to say to him, so I was just kind of staring at

him. So is that your technique? You, like, hold eye contact?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And her and I started talking, and very quickly, kind of like everything else

ceased to exist. Like, it was just the two of us, you know, when you're in a

conversation with somebody and there's other people around, but it really just

becomes the two of you. I mean, at the time in 2017, there was a lot of bad

news about Theranos.

It was only bad news.

And you just didn't know who she was.

No idea, yeah.

When did you realize?

Maybe an hour into talking.

And what did you say that made you realize?

Something about giving people access to health care, which made me kind of

realize, oh, testing and diagnostics. Oh, that's who this is.

It was super fast.

It went from zero to 100 really quickly.

I mean, the first time that he started talking about spending our life

together.

I thought he was kidding. And I asked him about 30 times if he was serious

because I was like, are you, do you mean that?

Do you feel like it would have gone in the same direction with you guys if he

knew from the very start it was you?

As opposed to... I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe not. I mean, the bias is so strong.

I fell in love in that first conversation.

Before or after the...

She revealed she was the founder of Theranos. Probably before.

Okay.

So you fell in love, like, in a few minutes, so then... Yeah, and maybe in

an hour, you know, it was just there. It was, like, clear.

You couldn't even see her face, though.

Yeah, I guess that wasn't what mattered to me.

Like, you're a very handsome man.

You're an attractive guy.

I'm sure you're popular with women, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I like women.

I know you like them, but like, I'm sure... Yeah, I was dating other people

at the same time I met Liz.

You were? Yeah. How many?

Nobody too seriously, maybe three people.

And then you meet Liz.

Yeah. And she gets indicted for a crime.

Yeah. And you are choosing at that point to be like, okay, this is what I want

for my life.

Why?

I think which speaks to how much I love her.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I mean, weren't you worried she was sort of like scamming you?

A hundred percent.

A hundred percent. But what did she have to gain from me?

Well, isn't your family rich?

Yeah, I think that there's like a lot of different levels of wealth, right? Okay.

And I think I certainly come from a family that has done well, but

the level of wealth you should, I'm not going

to answer that question.

More your parents.

Is that where the money is? I mean, they built a business.

It's 5.30.

My cousin's thing started at 5.15.

Oh, okay. Sorry, I didn't know.

How do you decide what to put in and what to leave out?

Right now I'm putting everything in and then I'll cut once I

sort of see it all together and how it fits together.

Did you write about signing it all?

I did.

It's a big part of my life.

you guys together?

12 years.

Wow.

What was Sonny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer of the company and the vice

chairman of the board.

And what was your role?

I was the CEO and the chairman of the board.

I believed in him because I thought he was the best in the world at what he was

doing.

But I know that I didn't question

him in the way that I otherwise would have had that relationship not

been in place.

Do you feel like you're...

An overly trusting person.

For sure.

But I think that's the best way to build the relationships that are successful

ones. Because I think if you start from a place of complete trust, then if it is

going to be a good relationship, it will be that much stronger because of it.

That's a really nice philosophy.

That's how Billy and I met and built the relationship that we have.

Two, three, I got one. Come on.

Come on, man. One, two, three.

Sorry.

So where do things get lost?

Like, how are you where you are right now?

I don't know.

What's your best guess? I mean, do you feel like everything that you did was

above board and you operated in good faith? And do you feel like your

legal team, you know, their advice has led you to this point?

No. I think they've put their hearts and souls into fighting it.

And they're still fighting.

So who messed up then in this process?

I wish I knew.

I don't know. I don't feel like I understand that.

Do you think that's part of the reason why people can't come around to you is

because they feel like you're not admitting to the things that you did?

Probably. Yeah.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel?

It makes it hard to stand up for the truth, but I would never be able to live

with myself if I didn't.

What do you feel like is the hardest thing for you to do emotionally?

Like,

when it comes to emotions.

What's the hardest thing for you?

It took me a really long time to be okay with.

New York Times is unwilling to change the, I created a character.

No, we told them, like, look, we've got all these tapes. It wasn't said

anywhere.

And they feel strongly that she took sufficient notes to cover that. They

don't have, like, they haven't come back saying, well, here's the place that you

said it.

They just say that they stand by their reporting.

Oh, let Liz describe it to you.

Do they have proof you said it?

I don't know. I know that we, as she would speak with us, we would record the

conversations too, because that's what our comms person said to do. Yeah, yeah.

But we don't have any recording of me saying I created a character.

You should find out if there's a recording.

We don't.

Come on. Okay.

Sorry. To be continued. Okay, to be continued. Because I do, okay. I want to

ask, just because the thing that, I know it's such a small thing, the New York

Times thing, but the reason I'm so interested is because if you... didn't

say this it really shows the narrative of people trying to make me into that

turn you into that but if you did say it it speaks to the fact that maybe you

don't recall some things that you've said or done yeah so the answer to this

question feels very relevant for sure yeah my process was my memory and then

reviewing all our tapes and confirming yeah and then following up based on that

Okay, yeah. I know you have to go, so. Yeah, until we continue.

Okay, great. Thanks.

I mean,

just to be clear, this person has no deep experience. This is a student with

a passion for trying to highlight problems that exist within the legal

system who is interested in

dedicating herself and her life to that continued pursuit.

She's telling you, you guys just kill the Wi-Fi every time.

I mean, when I was on the steering, it was, like, dropping.

It just makes us, our ability to do business, like, untenable.

I don't think it has anything to do with our equipment.

It 100% does.

Because, like, at night, I've got zero problems. It's only... Something's

interfering, because, like, even when I tried to do that hearing the other day,

it dropped, like, 10 times.

Really? Yeah. I feel like we're... We're on different frequencies, right?

It's not.

I think it's the monitors.

I'm unable to connect to this Wi-Fi. I'm unable to connect to our Wi-Fi. Would it

be the monitors? I think it's this. There we go.

Hi. Hi.

Can you guys hear me?

Yeah, sorry. We were having some Wi-Fi issues.

So nice to meet you.

So nice to meet you.

Would you know, with the fact that you've been involved in similar cases,

was that disclosed at trial?

They were able to get into it at the highest level, Not really, no. The

entire government's case was predicated on this idea that the technology didn't

work, right?

But they had no evidence to that. So they had three patients, all of which

Liz was acquitted of, like each of those counts.

And then they had nothing else. So they brought in this expert witness and had

them say whatever the fuck they wanted to him to say.

I mean, it's just procedurally totally incorrect.

I mean, you know, some of the questions that I would have for you guys, I guess,

would be...

You're supposed to make an important point.

Every single time that you guys are here, the Wi-Fi does not work.

And so you're thinking of working with her on your case?

You know, the truth is, like, I don't have the money to pay her to do that. So

the question would be, like, would there be a role for her in, like, the telling

of our story? I don't know.

but she could help give context as to where there are strings to be pulled.

You know, it's this weird thing because I've seen a lot of places where I think

there's just like fundamental wrongs.

And, you know, I hope that you guys can look into it because I think it will

yield results that will really surprise everyone.

But it takes time and energy and effort and, like, passion and somebody to care

about it, so... So maybe you have it, Nathan.

The ability to think independently and actually, like, look into facts, because

the rest of the world seems totally fucking incapable of it.

Any thoughts?

Hmm? Any thoughts?

I was just listening.

I still have this weird feeling that there's some things that I'm not seeing

fully about you guys.

I know you guys invited me to stay here with you and I declined the offer.

But I've been thinking maybe if I do take you up on your offer and to really

be here.

You are welcome to be here.

Does any part of you worry about me being here 24-7?

I don't think so.

That's what you asked for, is to see everything. So this is

everything.

But what if I see something that makes you look bad, that makes you look

guilty, really guilty?

I'm not guilty.

But what if I see something that makes you look that way?

Then you'll ask questions about it.

You really feel you did nothing wrong?

I did not.

You never tried to deceive anyone?

I've never tried to deceive anyone.

Ever in your life?

No.

Tell me this.

Have you ever lied in your life?

I don't think so.

Liz, what?

You've never lied in your life? You've never said something untrue?

Not intentionally.

A white lie?

I mean, I don't know. When I was a kid, you know, or like, but I've always tried

to say what I believe.

That's how I've built my life. That's why this is so important to me.

What's your definition of a lie?

Intentionally saying something you believe to be untrue.

Like, let's say, you know, you didn't want to go to a party, like a friend's

or like an acquaintance's party.

And you're just like, oh, I'm like not feeling great. I don't want to. You've

never done something like that? Or if you don't like someone.

I'm sure. I mean, I was thinking about lies as like the kind of things that

I've been accused of.

But. Well, you've done lies like that.

Telling a friend I feel sick when I don't? Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah. Mama's jacket.

That's mommy's jacket. Thank you.

Is that mommy's jacket or daddy's jacket?

Mama's jacket.

I'm going to take him down to the beach.

Okay.

This adhesion is essential for cell survival.

If cells become detached from their microenvironment, we will die through a

process known as apoptosis.

This phenomenon, which is called adhesion dependency of survival.

Okay.

Is that thing on the bed all there is, or is there a mattress too?

Is that what we're in there?

For the gas tub, yeah.

Yeah, we've got everything in the storage container. Oh,

okay, okay. Yeah, we've got... Supposing Jericho is only the... Yeah, we like

sleeping on just bed frames here.

Doesn't that mess with your head, though, when money is involved, like

that much money?

No, that's not what motivates me.

What about when the company started to be worth so much money?

I had never once sold a share.

It was never what this was about.

Can I play you a piece of audio that you said?

It's a clip from this interview you did with this journalist for Fortune,

Parla, I think was his name.

So you say there, the fact that we have a single device that can perform any

test is a big deal.

But from what I know, you couldn't do every test on a single device. That's

the whole problem. That's why you're going to prison, right?

No, that was our invention. And in the case I talked about, the fact that we

had invented a device that could do any test.

But if you had a single device that could run any tests, then wasn't that

the whole thing?

I don't know what you mean by the whole thing, but what you said is not the

case, and hopefully I can explain that.

What I said is not the case?

What do you mean?

That those statements were untrue.

That's a true statement.

Yes. That you have a single device that can perform any test.

We did. That's what we invented.

So this is the famous scam device.

I mean, it's not a scam device.

But that's what people think, right?

I don't know what people think. What I know is what we invented.

And to me, the technology is amazing.

So this works, you're saying?

It did. Right now, these are just components of a system.

It opens itself.

Did you invent this?

How it opens like that?

Our team did. I don't remember who the inventor was on that.

That wasn't your idea.

I don't remember.

Our technologies worked by allowing the cartridge.

when it was inserted into a device to call the cloud and send

protocols from the cloud down to the device telling you what to do with the

cartridge that had just been put in.

And we developed that for all these different methods of chemistry that we

were running tests.

So in that way, you can run any test because it's based on the cloud sending

information to a device and you can pre-load any different type of chemistry

into the cartridge.

That makes sense.

So the device is different than the chemistry. Exactly.

The device is capable of running any test.

Yes.

But currently...

The device cannot run every test.

You have to develop the small sample chemistries. For each test.

Yeah, validate them. For certain tests, I guess, that you hadn't done

successfully on it, it's theoretical.

Yeah, because this is a platform that can run those things.

What you're referring to is a future-based...

The device can, is capable of running any, it's the word I guess, can.

What I'm talking about here is what we invented.

What you invented.

Yeah.

So when you said the device can run any test, what you meant was

the device is capable of running any test.

Well, what I'm talking about here is that the device is capable of running

any test, yes.

Assuming additional chemistry is developed.

Assuming you have the chemistry to do those things.

But do you understand that if someone heard the device can run any

test, how they could interpret that as currently this device

is running any test?

I think we provided information about the...

the tests that we had developed and were developing.

Because people were saying, oh, it can only run 12 tests on this

thing.

I think the problem is the thing that you're asking, Nathan, is what the

general public understood in saying this thing.

You're communicating this thing, and everyone got a different picture than

what you meant.

I was, I mean, I was just trying to communicate the best I knew how.

And you were trying your best to be clear.

Because when you say this and describe this, I'm like, well, wait a sec. I

guess, yeah, the device can, like, that's right.

what you're saying, but I'm also like, well, why choose those

words? Why not just add one word that would

make it clear?

But I'm a bad communicator. I don't know a lot of words.

Is that what you're like?

I feel like I know I was trying to fully communicate what

we've created, and I feel like now I'm living in a parallel universe.

I don't, yeah, I don't... I know what you're

feeling.

No, you don't.

I gotta quickly take this legal call. Would you mind cutting the mic for a

second? Sure, yeah.

been suspicious that she's ever lied to you? No, never.

I mean, I know it seems weird, but... And is, like, you can shower whenever

you want, or certain times?

If I tell somebody I'm busy, is that a lie?

If you're not. Yeah.

Yes. Okay.

So I'll say that. Yeah. And Liz will be like, yeah, Billy's available. He's

right here.

Right.

So you lied.

Yes. Yes, she does.

Not that I've known her to. You have to wake up at 3.30? And I know it seems

totally improbable. I understand that. It's weird.

But she's really weird.

She's just not normal.

But the fact that she's most famous for lying. For that thing, yeah. The thing

she's never done.

You believe that.

You actually believe since high school she's never told a single lie?

What is an invasive strip search?

Can you see visitors that first weekend?

Is there evidence that that happened?

I think that there is a lot to learn. Why are you being so weird and cryptic

with your words?

Say what's there.

Okay. Thank you.

Is he okay?

Yeah.

Do you know who Abbott and Costello are?

No. Not really.

No.

Have you heard of the comedy routine Who's On First?

You haven't.

Okay. Can I play this for you?

Okay.

Something we were talking about the other day made me think about this.

Oh, sure.

But you know, baseball players nowadays have very peculiar names. A lot of funny

names. You know, like Sticky Fields.

Sticky Fields. Goofy Dan.

Boobie Bobber. Boobie Bobber.

But let's see now. We have on our team, we have who's on first.

What's on second? I don't know what's on third.

That's what I want to find out, the guy's name.

That's what I want to find out, the guy's name. Now tell me, who's on first?

What's on second? I don't know what's on third.

You know the names of the baseball teams? Yes. You know the guys' names?

Well, I should. Well, you tell me the guys' names of the baseball teams. I

say, who's on first? What's on second? I don't know what's on third. You ain't

said nothing to me yet. Go ahead and tell me.

I'm telling him. You ain't said nothing yet. Go ahead and tell me. Who's on

first? What's on second? I don't know what's on third.

You know the guys' names of the baseball teams?

Well, go ahead. Who's on first? Yes. I mean the guys' names. Who? The guys

playing first. Who? The guys playing first base. Who?

The

Who is on first?

What are you asking me for? I don't know.

I'm asking you who's on first. That's his name. Well, go ahead and tell me.

Who? The guy on first. That's it.

That's his name.

I ain't asking nothing.

You know the guy's name on first base? Sure. Tell me the guy's name on first

base. Who?

The guy playing first base. Who is on first, Lou? What are you asking me for?

I'm asking you a simple question. Who's on first? Yeah. Well, go ahead and tell

me. That's it. That's who?

So that's maybe the most famous comedy routine of all time.

Do you understand why that's funny?

I don't know.

They couldn't understand each other?

Did you find it funny?

I did.

What did you find funny about it?

That they were just talking over and past each other in a way that I thought

was funny.

And what was funny about it? What did they not understand?

Who the player was. And what was his name?

I don't know.

The guy who's on first, what was his name?

I didn't pick it up. The guy's name is who?

You didn't get it.

You didn't get that? No.

And so they didn't understand each other because who sounds like someone is

saying who's on first.

It's like a question.

But the guy's name is who?

Do you get it now?

When you were telling me your explanation of what you meant by the

statement, the fact that we have a single device that can run any test is a

big deal.

It felt like to me, well, that statement is so clearly

confusing to almost like a comedic level.

But you didn't see it that way when we were talking.

And so I was thinking about it and I was like.

This feels like who's on first.

Is that how it feels to you?

This?

What do you mean?

Billy, do you understand what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're

saying. It's like one of the, I'm really glad you showed us this because it's

like in some ways perfectly illustrates something that I've tried to communicate

and probably not.

done well enough, which is she just thinks differently.

And it's what allows her to see the world differently and to do things

differently.

Yeah,

something like that might not resonate with her defense.

I don't know. I mean, I felt that in a...

I still felt that I was describing...

I thought that I was

communicating effectively.

I don't know.

Am I off on this? Or is this like... I don't know.

I think he's right.

Most people view this and they understand sort of the joke of who

is a confusing name for a baseball player.

But you watch this and you didn't see where the confusion was

happening.

Well, I don't know.

I'm like, I'm not surprised by that.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm not surprised by that at all.

I'm honestly just wondering if your mind, it doesn't grasp how a certain

statement can be read as confusing.

It's the zoo. Where's George?

We're here.

The monkey's George.

Hi.

I'm Nathan.

Hi, Nathan. Nice to meet you. Very nice to meet you. I'm Noelle.

Noelle.

Pleasure to meet you.

I thought the whole series was untruthful. I mean, but people believe

these things, you know. They take these things as gospel.

I read that you worked at Enron.

I did.

How is that?

You spend your life building up your name and then suddenly

you're associated with something that just kind of goes under and has a

horrible reputation.

I think that's painful for anyone.

Sort of happened to Liz too, huh?

Yeah.

Except the difference is that...

Elizabeth was by no means guilty of anything.

Where do you think things went wrong for her?

I can tell you exactly what I think. That's an easy question to answer.

Okay, answer it then.

So things went wrong for Elizabeth when she got raped.

And I think that she was so stunned by having been raped that that led to the

second thing that really changed her, and that was when Sonny Balwani came

into her life.

Elizabeth was like 19. He was, what, close to 40.

Did you know he was 40?

No, I knew he was older.

You could tell by how he looked? Yeah.

Liz said she couldn't tell.

He's 30 years old and going to a freshman college program.

Okay, can I push?

So,

so Elizabeth...

Do you find it, like, the fact that you saw Sonny and you knew he was really

old, do you find it... Hey guys, as much as I love you guys doing an interview

right now, I just really want to spend time together as a family.

I didn't mind if you wanted to go for a few more minutes. Yeah, however long you

want, but I just, you know, the purpose of you guys being here is for us to be

able to spend time together. Yeah, I know. We will.

Do you want us to leave, Billy?

No, I don't want you to leave. I just want...

I think you guys should document us spending our time together.

I'm just trying to learn.

Sometimes I can't tell Billy wants

us here or not.

I guess Sunny was this very important relationship in her life,

or at least a big one.

How do you feel about the fact that she's

getting into business with Billy after what happened with Sonny? Do you feel

like it's smart to get into business with someone you're romantically

involved with?

Good question.

I trust Billy.

Elizabeth is a lot wiser.

Elizabeth is a lot wiser. She knows.

I guess Billy wants me to come outside.

Yeah, I'll do it with you.

You'll watch the dropout with me? I mean, I'd prefer to watch as little of

it as required, just because I think it's going to disturb me a lot.

But I'll watch it.

Only if you want to. Only if you can do it. But I would love to watch it with

you, because I also haven't seen it.

Can you say the company name?

There it is.

Theranos. No, Theranos. It's a mix between therapy and diagnosis.

Why not?

Theranos.

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we cut that part? Cut the name.

So, currently we have 500 employees.

Did you do that?

Probably.

You know what?

It's fine.

Okay, I'll check with you.

When are you going to move in?

It depends.

On what?

On how it goes today with my parents.

Yes, on every parent's dream.

Your new sword?

The Tana.

Look at it.

Ask Larry Ellison about Katanas. He loves Japan.

How are you on the numbers?

Uh, both blood tests are priced too high. We offer a low-cost alternative

with the possibility to scale up.

Don't talk about saving the world.

I'm not going to talk about saving the world.

Don't use your giddy voice.

Don't save us.

Okay,

can we have a moment to get advice?

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

I think she gets fussy when I hold her because she wants to feed again every

time.

Isn't it weird that I, like, did a TV show about kind of business scams and

you're sort of, like, in trouble for, like, a business scam?

I never actually made that connection.

I think it's a pretty different situation.

If you just said that Theranos was a comedy bit, maybe you could

get off scot-free.

It was real.

Yeah.

It was just a joke.

Okay.

As you know, I'm literal.

No, no, I know. I was just kind of making a little joke. Maybe it was bad

taste.

It's always felt free to me being in the water. It's so vast and beautiful.

It clears your head, resets you.

You're asking me to go?

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm normally afraid of cold water.

No pressure.

What are you guys going to be needing to work on now?

We'll start following up with people and giving people calls about starting to

work on... We can do some prototyping.

I wanted to ask you...

are starting to think about an idea for a new type of sensor. Thank you so much

for taking the time. There's a real opportunity to leverage what's next

generation tech in self-driving and tunable lasers and all these other

dimensions into the field of medicine.

We have a laser. The idea is to be able to directly measure analytes in a

sample.

We think there's enough off-the-shelf components in existing research

institute labs that we could go there and run some samples.

Yeah, absolutely.

And the idea is we get our hands on one, determine how good the data is.

And then our process would be how do we miniaturize and cost cut, which Liz's

experience in building Xeranos I think is so relevant. Whatever the limitations

in the optics are going to be, I think can be potentially compensated for in

part through the data set and through the algorithms.

I think you would be able to come up with some of the best algorithms that we

could make to do this right.

Yeah, just look at it and see how...

An expert virologist, what can they tell? If you can hit a dollar a test in

low-income, low-resource settings where there's no testing infrastructure, you

can change things.

I think the bigger question is, can you get the test that cheap? Because of the

compute required to run it, how many cycles you're going to need. I totally

agree with that. Yeah, so I think that's probably the best way. This is going to

be a classic moment for the failed bot.

From wherever I am, I'm going to continue to work on inventing, like even

if it's inventing from a page, I have to do it. The power that be might not be

too happy to see this come about. Wow, this is really cool.

Yeah, he said that he's really inspired that we're still trying to see this

through. He thinks it's amazing and he wants to help raise money.

I feel so energized after that.

Yeah? Yeah.

Why?

Because it's like what I feel like I was born to do.

What I'm thinking is, is as I work on my ideas, I'll just lay them out in letters

and write to you with ideas and drawings and diagrams. We can do like a once a

week patent session with Tim and the team, with a patent lawyer.

We can take those ideas and then we can file them.

Yes. I mean, at a high level, like, it's under

365 days.

Totally agree with that. I mean, I think doing bottom-up on the milestones that

we've built and then also having goals with this on the research side. Yeah,

just volume and quantity. I think that, like, it's alluring to be like, oh, you

know, it's going to be this and that.

And I think near-term goals is...

that in some way is really important for the kids like illustrating reading a

book or something but um

and what so this one over here is just face for yup so kind of chest up right

and it's going to do two things so it's going to capture a three-dimensional

image of her face and then it's also going to overlay the photos on top of

that to capture the color right so we're going to do a neutral view Just like you

are now. And then after we do that one neutral, we're going to come back and

put your hair back and put a bald cap on you.

And then I'm going to put just several markers on your face. This is this

washable kind of thing that I use for doing facial markers.

And that's for stitching all these expressions together inside of a

software. So I have 220 cameras in this room for the whole body.

I have 70 in here that generates a high resolution piece of geometry.

And they use these expressions to stitch together you later through a hologram or

a game or a video.

Do you guys have any questions or anything?

I have a

weird history with being on the camera because I wasn't on the camera for a

long time.

I had all these people telling me to go get my picture taken and, like, do all

these pieces, and it ended up hurting us so much. And, like, I just... Like, the

last thing that everyone would have done was do this, right?

But, like, now that is the thing that she's very known for, because, like,

some photographers have posed like this.

You're talking about the famous photo, right?

Yeah.

I mean, you know this media narrative about me, is that, like...

I wanted to be in the media, I wanted to be in all these stories, and I had all

these people telling me to go do those stories to help my company.

Anyway, now I'm just wanting to make sure that we use it in the right way,

and that's the right thing to do.

One, two, three, and then go ahead.

Up ahead. Yep, that's good. We're going to do two of these. One.

Two. And then our other pose with this.

Yep. One.

Two. And three.

And now come up above our head. I mean, she could also hold her phone.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Cool.

That's great.

Okay. Yeah.

And now let's get one with you texting.

I don't think texting. No? She's not going to text.

Okay. I think that's good. Yeah. All right. I got it.

Let's do a happy, let's do a smile, happy.

Yep. Good.

And then, okay,

this is jaw open, eyes closed.

Water like, ah.

Open your eyes.

Watch for it, Ivy.

Wow, there it is. There was, right? Yeah.

You

know, there's

so much going on, but in Simone, I'm perfectly happy.

I'm not that person.

I promise you.

Why would I deceive you?

There's no...

There's no reason for me to do that.

It's weird. The thing that's throwing me the most is how inviting you are and

that you're giving me so much access and you're letting me listen to you all day

long. And you're doing this thing again.

You're continuing with Theranos. You're building it again.

It's like everything here points to someone with nothing to hide.

It's because I don't have anything to hide.

I'm building the idea again. It's not there or else, but it's the invention,

the technology, the ideas.

Right now, the only thing I really have to go off of

is you. Because ultimately, if it's about what you meant by what you said,

you're the only person that can answer that. I know. I know.

I mean, hopefully I'm showing that with my actions. I'm not just telling you

there's a truth. I'm living by that belief.

But you're smart. You're smart, right?

I don't know about that. You're very smart. Come on, right?

I mean, that's what we're fighting. That's why I'm fighting.

Otherwise,

I would settle and have more time with my babies, which is what I want more

than anything in the world.

I feel like this is a really nice place.

Do you know how green it is?

Immediately, I chose to run.

Looking forward to looking at houses, finding a place that's safe and secure

for animals.

Yeah, maybe we stay.

I know this is your final couple hours together. I don't know if you...

We're all here, but if you want to have a moment, I'm happy to step out and

you guys can have some time. But if not, that's okay.

We do need to take a shower because we didn't shower this morning.

Just to give you the option because you're going to be gone for a very long

time. You won't be able to...

to have sex, so I'm happy to just leave.

I can go in my car if you want sometime.

And there was this huge fight over Elizabeth's patent during COVID, you

know, when she was already not even associated with the company, where

people were arguing over getting their hands on it.

But none of that is picked up on because it's all very frothy right now. You

know, people are making a fortune, you know, off of Elizabeth's story, the

negative side of her story, not the positive side.

But you watch. I mean, I'll be dead when this all happens.

But you watch.

Two decades from now, the whole story is going to be coming out about my

daughter, our daughter.

Oh, hey.

How was it?

Good?

Good.

As I got you, like, a little card and a thing.

This is kind of like a bit of a gag gift, but I didn't know your parents

would be here or whatever.

Well, I don't know.

Don't get offended. It's just kind of like a joke.

It was like, you know, like, hair dye and glasses in case she wants to, like,

flee to another country last minute.

Just a joke.

Sometimes I joke with her, too.

All

right,

should we do this? I'll send you the contact list. Thank you so much.

So we got that.

I have milk for IV.

Bring it to her.

Okay.

Like, we don't know exactly where there's going to be roadblocks, but

where there are roadblocks, Liz will come up with solutions to those

roadblocks, and she'll come up with new ideas. So, in a year, I think I'd like

to have a working prototype.

I'd move people assembled, and then I'd like to start developing the first

tests.

Yeah? I tried getting a hold of that New York Times reporter to see if she had

that quote.

Can you send them to me?

No. I haven't checked the whole thing for everything.

Alright.

Well... Still working for us in the beginning of the week.

Yeah.

I guess give me a call when it's done.

We use lasers.

There have been developments over the course of the last handful of years that

the approach that we are taking and the way in which we are solving the problem

is uniquely possible today.

Artificial intelligence allows you to do that.

And I think a lot of people don't yet know that that's possible. And the

reason why we know this is because Joe really, not me, has been at the

forefront of the most innovative technology in the world.

for these subcomponents and how they're used. We have a technology where we can

look at a specific molecule and start with extremely high resolution, tell you

what's different about its fingerprint today than it was last week.

I mean, that changes everything in the medical universe.

The purple boxes here are lasers.

So those lasers can be 10,000 different wavelengths of light each.

You send light through a sample, blood or urine or saliva.

That light changes wavelength depending on what's inside of it. And once we

catch that light, we then put it into our computer to interpret the results.

Is this the new device?

These components are part of the device.

All of these will be shrunk down into something about half the size of a

Kleenex box.

So you can test for disease with it. The accuracy is around 96, 97%. Is it like

harder to make decisions together now?

You and Liz.

I think there's just so much trust that most things I don't really consult her

on. Like, I know what she'd want.

I mean, I don't know anybody else that has a relationship as close as we have.

sink to the bottom beneath the crest of the earth into the magma flow

how long does it take to take audio clips and then like clone her voice

um we can get an initial version of it up and running in like 20 or 30 minutes

oh really okay wow

it's

It's so crazy because when this was taken, she was, she had given birth like

a month before.

She looks so different now.

Like she looks so much healthier.

Now?

Yeah.

She doesn't look healthy here?

No, it's not that she doesn't look healthy. I don't mean healthy. That's

the wrong way to describe it. She looks so much more fit.

Like she's got abs.

Health is the wrong one.

That's what this is all about. It's being able to look at a person's body

chemistry at a molecular level.

How do you feel about like carrying on or being a part of carrying on the

Theranos mission?

If you're going to solve the problem, it happens with... with multiple failures.

Theranos is one failure on a path, and there will be more.

What do you feel like they did wrong?

Oh, they used the wrong technology.

And it was a step along the way, and there are people doing it right now. I

appreciate the line of questioning, but I think that the truth is Joe wasn't

there. Well, I can figure out the question to ask.

Is that okay?

I look at the Theranos endeavor as a wealth of information

of some things what to do and some things what not to do.

And as far as how it imploded, you know, the claims that they made, I mean, let

me just put it this way.

Entrepreneurs, even the best of them, you know, the Elon Musk, make claims

that are not true at any given point in time, right? We're going to have...

a self-driving car, and people paid money for it. So the point of... Wait,

what's going on? You guys can turn off the cameras. Thank you.

What's the issue?

If you'd like to talk about it, turn off the cameras. I want to know the issue.

I'm asking you to turn off the cameras. Bill, you can't just walk in in the

middle of an interview and turn off the cameras whenever you want. You're not

the director of this. I'm not the director. I'm not trying to be the

director. So I'm asking you to turn off the cameras. I'm not going to engage

with you.

So can you tell me? I have no idea what you're talking about. I can tell you

when the cameras are off, but not talking. Okay, sorry. Sorry, Joe. Okay,

turn off the cameras.

I submitted an application to visit Liz in prison.

Or to get the cameras in there.

Oh, that's never going to happen.

Why?

Because I know more about what they are allowed

to do.

You think there's no chance it's going to happen?

Chances below negative.

It's not going to happen. And I love how we are repeating our story about the

woman who picked blueberries and changed the world with her gesture of kindness

that went on from one person to the next.

I really meant it when we were talking about discovering all the most profound

insights from our study and discoveries in nature on Dr. Yes.

So many incredible inventions are to be had.

Tomorrow we will work on our design again together.

I am literally living for it.

I think Liz would tell you if she was here let me speak for her for a moment

is the thing that she thinks she will be remembered for

is for our relationship like what she says is that every action she

takes for as long as she lives will be building monuments of love to me

For you?

Yeah, that's what she would say.

Liz told me you can get pretty heated sometimes, but she didn't elaborate,

really. Yeah.

So what did she mean?

I mean, you saw today, I got really frustrated. I'm really protective.

Can I ask, what are your arguments like with her when you guys fight?

I mean...

We've never really had a significant argument.

I know that sounds crazy, but we really don't argue.

You don't argue ever?

No.

Are you able to sense when she's frustrated with you?

I don't think she really gets frustrated with me. I know it sounds crazy.

Have you ever asked her?

I mean, she tells me just about, like, we're, we tell each other just about

everything that we're thinking.

So you're saying you can sense that she would tell you if she was frustrated

with you?

Yeah. Even without you asking?

Do you feel like she has a track record

of standing up for herself in relationships?

boards that are all over LA.

Are these yours?

I have nothing to do with it.

I have literally nothing to do with it.

What are they?

Do you know? I don't know because I haven't asked, but my vet is in LA. He's

probably spent $350,000 in billboards. Probably another $250,000 to $300,000 in

Florida. He had two billboards in Times Square.

So you know this guy?

He's the guy who just hates seeing people who are

wrongfully accused of things.

He also happens to run one of the largest diagnostics labs in the country,

and he feels like she's innocent.

How do you feel about this?

Him using her face like that to promote his stuff?

Look, I really admire his conviction and effort to try and help us.

But he's using that... famous photo of her right oh man you know he's a very

nice guy that makes her really upset you know his intentions are like here he

really wants to help win in 2007 when i went to pharmaceuticals and introduced

my machine and they started testing on patients no one could understand what i

was trying to show you took five sir how to go now

listen i took five

Yeah.

Hey, bud. I got it, Robbie.

But we're going to get her out soon, man. I just feel like the tide is

burning.

Yeah, I'll give you a ride.

I do.

Is that the billboard guy you were talking to?

Yes, that was Ryan.

Do you have plans for more of those billboards?

Yeah, he cares a lot about Liz, so he checks in.

He flew out here last weekend.

Is she okay with him using her image like that?

How many people have used her image?

Without her consent. That's the nature of being a public figure. But it really

upset her. Like, the last time she talked about that photo, she was, like,

crying. Which photo?

The famous photo. No, she doesn't care about that photo.

But she said that, like, people used it not how she wanted it, and it hurt her.

I haven't heard her say that.

You don't remember that? We were all there. I don't know what you're talking

about. Um, but... What I can tell you is his intention is really pure.

He cares a lot about Liz.

The whole family does.

I mean, I watched some of his videos. The guy sort of seems like a kook. Do

you think that association is good for her?

Probably not, no. Okay, so then why do you do it?

Yeah, his delivery is different than mine would be, or Liz's. He hired a

blonde woman to pretend to be Liz at a strip club and then came in and grabbed

her neck and then pretended to blow himself up. At 11.

At what?

I think it was 11.

The strip club?

Well, it's a club.

Judges, federal judges have incredible discretion, so they can actually do

whatever they want. They're like, look, the guideline says I should do this, but

I'm giving you probation.

I'm giving you 18 months.

Once I looked it up, I heard that there is a show about it,

a Hulu show.

I started to try to watch that.

I didn't get far, but I just know Theranos.

What was it? Therapy and diagnosis?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

You know, she goes to Stanford, drops out, second year, to create this

device that could... No, their focus was about all the chemistry.

It was about...

the test itself. So everybody focuses on the box, but the box, like... Because

that's what, every time she goes to, like, them different investors, they

say, where's the working prototype, right?

They couldn't get it to them.

So that was, like, the whole craziness.

Yeah, man, it's tough.

I can't imagine where you're going to, to be honest.

to capture these moments because what we're going through right now well I

mean at a simplest level I feel like the reason why

Oh, who's that?

Theranos. No, Theranos. It's a mix between therapy and diagnosis.

Why not Theranos?

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we go to that part about the name?

I don't know.

What was Sonny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer of the company and the vice

chairman of the board.

And what was your role?

I believed in him, but I know that...

I didn't question him in the way that I otherwise would have had that

relationship not been in place.

What?

How do you feel?

It's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking.

The whole thing is very...

very wild.

When you, like, played her, what were you, like, how did you base your

performance of her, like, what was that based on?

Well, I had the 10 hours of deposition, 10 to 12 hours of deposition tapes,

which is just her, you know, sitting there.

And then I watched Every interview she's ever done, when I know that it was told

to me from the beginning, we are not allowed to talk to her. She's not

allowed to talk to us.

How'd that feel to you?

Good. Good.

Because I was like, oh, good. We have parameters here. We're working in

fiction land.

You saw the show as fiction.

ridiculous amounts of research and most of the things we were allowed to every

time we veered off path a little bit it was because it was allowed because it's

you know tv and so that washing that was like weird i

don't know she really could just be

crazy

She said she didn't want to be famous. She didn't want to be in pictures, but

like... That's

not the kind of person that could create what she created.

What? What kind of person?

I think it takes somebody... I think it takes something else.

Yeah. And I'm sorry, but she did... The things that were frustrating... There

were a lot of things that were frustrating, and one of them being that,

like... Sonny is the bad guy and she was just a victim of Sonny and now she's

going to prison.

It's like, that's not, I mean, is that possible that

Sonny just is the reason Sonny was the guy lying to people?

I mean, the challenge I'm having with all of this is she was taken away and

went in and Now it's Billy just saying, I know what's going on with her. And he

even said to me, like, I don't even have to talk to her to know what she wants.

I wish there was a way you could find out some shit on Billy.

Bring it to her. Find what? Break them up.

You want them to break up? No, find some shit on Billy. Yeah, of course I do.

No woman wants to see another woman be controlled by that.

Not that I would do this, but I fantasized for a minute, like, playing

her post-trial.

When did you fantasize?

Just when I was watching it. Oh, when you were watching it. I forget what

scene it was.

When you were sitting there on the couch with her.

I feel like a little haunted.

Because I have to just sit with the discomfort of A, not knowing, and B, not

knowing how I feel about it, and C, being able to do nothing about it, and

D, just feeling shitty about myself and my own feelings about

it. Lots of things.

She's not just an idea in my head. This should actually happen.

Oh my god.

They were, like, renting it when we shot it.

It's really dusty.

Were these vitamins here?

I don't remember that. Okay. This coffee machine, for sure. This toaster. This,

obviously.

Fridge, microwave.

Is this here?

I think she used that.

They had that here.

She didn't really drink coffee.

Do you miss her?

Miss? I mean... It must be weird.

I don't know, this is a weird word.

Can I tell you something or a story about how this, like, something happened

here that I still sort of think about?

Because before we had cameras here, it sort of...

So it relates to how this whole project came about.

Like when you first met?

Yeah.

Basically, I went down to meet her and Billy for the first time in San Diego

after I heard a rumor through the grapevine that maybe she was interested

in having her life documented.

You sure you don't want any of it?

I'm all right. Thanks.

I took notes after on everything that happened. And so this script is sort of

based on my memory of what happened and like those notes I had.

You really showed me a clip of something that you made on YouTube.

You were at a gas station talking to the owner.

Oh yeah, that was from a comedy show I used to make called Nathan For You.

It was pretty clear from the moment I met her that... She had no real clue who

I was or had seen anything I had made before.

And then she asked if you had kids. Do you have kids?

No.

It's completely changed.

Great at what?

Being a dad.

Which was so bizarre.

I don't know. It was weird because, like, When she said that, it actually,

like, made me feel good for some reason. It felt super sincere.

But because I was feeling that, that weird mix of this feels so authentic

with her, but then I don't trust it, it felt like watching a magician.

Do you know who David Blaine is, the magician?

I do.

And that just came to your mind?

Yeah, in the moment. And I wrote, this is basically verbatim what I told her.

All right, so David Blaine does this thing where he sticks an ice pick right

through the palm of his hand.

And the way he presents it, it looks like a magic trick.

But I actually think he's really sticking the ice pick through his hand.

Like I saw in an interview, he said he dug a tiny hole through his hand, so it

actually is going through.

But it always just looks like a trick to people because of how he presents it.

And what I find so interesting about you, is that in the aftermath of

everything that's happened with you, with the reputation you have, no

offense, but I don't think anyone will ever believe you ever again.

Like, you can be telling the truth as much as you want, and just no one's

going to believe you. So when I said that to her, I remember her eyes lit up,

and she was, like, very excited by this idea.

And you're not really saying that it's, like, a good thing.

No. And she's taking credit.

Julie, did you hear what Ethan just said?

No. He said, I'm like, I'm reminded of David Blaine.

She sort of paraphrased what I had said.

And then they had this weird look between each other.

Like the two of them shared this knowing look. And I was like, what?

We.

Only want to let people into our lives who think outside the box.

And you look at things differently.

And you don't give a fuck what people think.

So after that, things came together really quickly. We basically went from

that first meeting to coming down to shoot in the San Diego house they were

renting within a week.

Oh my God. Yeah.

Wow. There was this urgency to get started with the project because she was

going to prison soon.

So we began filming with them before she had signed any appearance release.

Uh-oh.

But the thing that I can't get out of my head is something that happened at this

meeting that Billy said he wanted to have before they agreed to sign

anything.

So we come to their friend's house in LA.

Hey, they're in the kitchen. Okay, great. It was me, Lance, the co-director

of this, and two executives from A24.

And we all sat around this table and Liz started reading the opening chapter to

this, I guess, a book she was writing. The first chapter I'm calling Waking Up.

Love ignites a courage that cannot be extinguished. The sheets in our bed are

so soft. I roll over and look at you.

You are perfect.

Your arms are wrapped over my heart.

We didn't know what the reason for the meeting was. So when she started reading

it, we were like, oh, is there a point to this?

I wouldn't say to the writer, but every time I saw the beams flying through our

windows, I was one with my dad.

So you

guys are all saying how great it is.

Well, we were trying to be polite.

I didn't know really what to say. For sure. Of course.

And then you could hear her oldest child.

like sort of yelling and playing in another room. Yeah.

So she gets up in that moment from the table and goes to see the kids.

Okay.

So, guys, I think we need to have a conversation about the terms of our

involvement in this project.

Okay.

What do you mean by that?

Once she was gone, Billy started talking about money. I don't know what your

vision is for this project.

You guys are artists and that's what drives you.

But I do know that there is potential for this movie to also make a lot of

money. And I feel

strongly that if this movie were to make money, that we

should be entitled to some of it.

Which is not customary and just kind of unethical. It's not customary for people

to make a profit off the documentaries that they're appearing in. I mean, I was

vocal with them, too. I said, I agree with Ravi on this completely.

It is not a good idea.

Why not?

I mean, the optics are terrible.

If you guys are making money from this documentary, people are going to

question your guys' motives for being in it in the first place.

And also...

It might give the perception that you guys have a creative say over what the

final product is. This is not, it's not good for the film. No, but I've looked

into this, and there are many, many examples of documentary subjects getting

paid. The Meghan Markle and Prince Harry documentary on Netflix, I read somewhere

that they got paid $100 million to make that.

That's not a real documentary. I know, but Lance, I know it's bad, but the fact

is that they did get paid for that.

But then it ends.

It's a non-negotiable. With him eating a slice of pizza.

Yeah, I guess the friend had got pizza for this meeting. So there was like

several pizzas there.

Um, like what did you decide?

Well, at this point, like he had all the leverage. So A24 felt they had like no

choice but to give him a portion of the profits. Shut the fuck up.

Yeah.

How did that make you feel?

Well, I was really frustrated because I felt like the integrity of the project

might be out the window.

And I actually considered just leaving the project and saying, well, I can't do

this.

But then I also thought there might be something interesting about the fact

that we were sort of witnessing how these guys do business and how she

operates with her romantic partner in relationships.

I assume that even though, like, Liz wasn't in the room when he started

making demands, he would eventually, like, obviously tell her about the deal

he made.

Yeah. But then days before she headed to prison, she said something that made me

reconsider.

And this is actually something that we have on camera. So it's really, can I

show you? Okay.

Yep.

This is still in San Diego.

Yes.

I think this is the moment in time to capture this

story before I'm gone. And hopefully the truth comes out. Because obviously I'm

not making any money or having any economic interest in this whatsoever.

So I just think that's the right thing.

What do you make of that?

I believe that she has no idea that he asked.

For money.

Unless she's just... I believe her. I don't know why.

Like what?

I think this is the moment in time to capture this

story before I'm gone.

And hopefully the truth comes out.

Because obviously I'm not making any money or having any economic interest in

this whatsoever.

So I just think that's the right thing.

Like, when this happened, you can see on my face that I, like, I honestly didn't

know how to respond.

I mean, there's obviously a chance that this is all complete bullshit, right?

There's a theory that this was a coordinated event.

That she intentionally left the room at a certain point so Billy could talk

about this.

And ultimately, it was just all a ruse or a scheme to keep her hands clean

while her partner does the dirty work.

And this is an insight into how she operates.

But

for

some reason, when she is saying this and the way she says it, I don't know why,

but my first instinct is to believe her. This is the moment in time to

capture this story before I'm gone. And hopefully the truth comes

out. Because obviously I'm not making any money or having any economic

interest in this whatsoever.

Yeah, she seems just like... Here's the

thing. Can she really be this...

out of the loop like when deals are being made in her name this

is the woman that created theranos like i don't even know if there's two ways

about it either this is fully sincere and she actually has no

clue about the deal philly made or

she honestly might be

The most manipulative person that's ever lived.

It wouldn't be our fault if we got duped by her again.

I don't want to let it happen.

That's just personal for me. Yeah.

She has nothing to gain from him behaving like this. It's crazy.

Money. Like she says she's never cared about money. And she probably still

doesn't. She probably doesn't know. Do you believe that?

That she doesn't care about money?

I think she cares about money. I think she tries to make a point that it's not

about the money.

Don't get taken in.

Don't get lured. Don't let her get in your head.

She still looks kind of innocent.

If he would be interested and, you know, if he's

available, I don't know, I think I could probably disarm him and then...

Ask him the questions that were there to ask him.

Well, what did you get from him that I couldn't? I just feel like people trust

me. People talk to me.

They sometimes say too much.

I always take advantage of that.

Does he know anything about the reenactment?

No. What does Billy know about my involvement in this?

All I've told him is that we've gotten to know each other casually, that

you're in Texas, and that I asked if you'd, like, tag along.

And he seemed like he was into that.

Did he ask why I wanted to?

He actually didn't.

Okay, interesting.

He doesn't know me or anything about me.

So what does that mean?

It just means I feel like an undercover cop right now. Like, crazy.

Do you like that feeling?

I do.

You okay? Yeah.

Yep, just another day, you know?

Let's go grab our food.

Uh-oh, is somebody out here?

Yeah. Oh, wow.

No, for the kids.

Okay. Is there food outside? Amanda, nice to meet you. You're so tall.

What do you need?

Okay, let's go read your guys' books.

I'm going to go read your books. I'm going to put you to bed, and I'll be

back in maybe 15 minutes.

Say goodnight. Give her a big hug. Listen, you are a real stand-up lady,

okay? And your pajamas are the best, and whatever you're drinking looks

delicious. So you got it really good. It's a white Russian.

You got it going on, huh?

Good night, children.

We only have two minutes with Mommy right now.

So just wait a second.

This call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.

To access this call, press 5.

You may begin speaking now.

Hey, baby. I'm here with Wills and Heidi.

Oh, good.

Booyah!

I know we only have two minutes, but we love you. Two minutes.

Two minutes.

And then Nathan and Lance and Amanda's here. Say hi.

Hi. Hi.

Did you know I was going to be here?

Okay.

I'm so sorry. I don't want to ruin your two minutes with your beautiful family.

We're having a good time.

You have a beautiful family.

No, I don't even, yeah. Sorry, you're wonderful.

I love you.

Yeah,

you can give me a call later.

Okay.

Say bye, Mommy.

Bye, Mommy.

Okay,

say goodnight, everyone.

Goodnight.

I don't know if I know. I don't know if I know.

Why? She said, did you know I was going to be here? I don't know if I knew.

Is that what you said?

Do you know how much stock she ever sold?

Nothing.

Zero.

She literally could have had a billion and a half dollars personally and still

been a majority shareholder in the business. How do you guys make your

money now?

She gets paid 30 cents an hour.

What about you?

I've got my own business.

I don't know. I mean, to be honest, the thing I've been thinking about is just

like, like how

decisions are made and how much is,

you know, her, these are her desires or these are

yours or these are both.

I think they're one and the same because the life that the two of us intend to

live is one for our family.

Like she is my, she is my soul.

Do you have conjugal visits?

There's no conjugal visits in federal prison. I've been laid for 899 days.

It's day 899. Tomorrow's day 900.

I count the days.

That you haven't had sex?

Yeah. Day 900.

Other than like Pamela Anderson.

Excuse me?

He's masturbating. Yeah, it's a joke.

I feel like a lot of women would say sex is better by myself.

Yeah, that's because most men aren't good at it. Are you good at sex?

Yeah, I'm fucking excellent.

How do you know?

Because I lied every time.

You lied about what?

To every partner.

Like you'd say if it was bad, oh, that was so good. Yes, of course I would. So

how do you know you weren't getting that? That's my point.

Let me change the subject. Let's talk about something else.

Sex. So how is Liz getting info? Like she doesn't have the internet in there,

right? We send her so many emails.

She has email but not internet.

Yeah.

So she's like sending tweets like today.

How does that work?

Yeah, some of them are just me.

Some?

And she does others?

Yeah, I'd say 80% of it's her.

How does she do it?

Well, I mean, I'm physically putting it on the Internet, but she sends me an

email saying, here's this line of text, and I copy it, and I paste it, and I put

it on the Internet, but she writes it.

Do you tell her that you're doing it?

Yeah.

She knows that whatever she sends is, like, fair game for the... No, she just

trusts me.

Some things that she doesn't frame as, like, for the Internet, I put up, I put

there. How did it begin? Like, was she like, I want to start?

No, I told her to.

I just said, fuck this. I'm tired of the silence.

What's she saying?

And you, and I can read you some of them. What are you saying? Yeah, what is

it? What's the, what is she talking about? Like biotech? Is she talking

about what she's doing?

So there's this photo of like shitty weed. It says, what do you call this

kind of weed where you are from?

Wait, she posted this? No, somebody posted this. Oh.

And I wrote.

Or she wrote.

No, I wrote this.

But as her.

Yeah, from her account.

I said mandatory sentence extension and a free trip to the solitary housing

unit.

Oh, my God.

You wrote that.

I wrote this. Oh, my God. What would she say if she saw her ex account? She was

like, this is not me.

No, it is her. She'd think it's hilarious.

Yeah.

I did.

How did the account get like... She had an account from years ago, from 15 years

ago. And then so how did you get access?

I messaged one of the top people at X and I just said, hey, this is who I am.

Here's a power of attorney.

I need access to her account.

Power of attorney?

Yeah, I can do anything legally for Liz. Anything.

You have power of attorney?

Yeah, like unalienable. So I can literally do anything.

I don't understand how the fuck you got that.

She signed a document that said I had power of attorney. Why would she do

that? Because we trust each other. But she's alive.

Yeah. And functioning.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of things she can't do.

But don't do anything crazy.

I mean, there's just a bunch of like nasty things in here that I really

shouldn't say.

The problem is, is if I had to like clear everything by her.

I think for too long, she just let things slide, and I don't fucking take

it. I know, but that's not her.

Yeah. That's you, and I don't think it's good. I don't think it's helpful. She

was cool with everything that I said.

Amanda,

with all due respect, your advice is one of the last ones I would take on the

subject. But you said yourself. Your experience with social media hasn't

exactly been successful over the course of the last six months. It's been very

successful, actually.

In distancing 50% of the country.

Wait, for what?

Yeah, Amanda was getting dragged on social media because she said something

shitty about Charlie Kirk.

I just said he was hateful.

For two days, I was like... She got fucking dragged.

Is she a Charlie Kirk fan?

I am.

You are? Yeah. I think he's a fucking pussy.

And... I hope his voice cares. Can I say something about him real quick? You're

not going to like my voice. I don't want to hear it, but can I... Because I'm

better read than you.

I don't like the fact that he was performative.

When he was with those people.

You're a fucking actress.

And then an asshole.

Yeah, but my own feelings. Complaining my wife with no research.

Talk about performative. One character. It wasn't her.

It was based on her. I think the writers and the producers of the shows are just

horrible people.

Well, listen.

Let's talk about the videos. Because they just made a bunch of shit up. I

hear what you're saying.

I'm just giving you a little bit more context. Yeah, I'm going to ruin their

lives. I hear you. Whose lives?

I hear you. Fucking everyone.

I've got a vengeance in my heart.

Everyone? Fucking everyone.

You can still be angry, but you can cause more of an impact.

Well, the problem is I'm fucking good at it. Good at what?

I mean, I'm pretty strategic. I'm well-resourced.

I know people who can do just about anything.

To harm people?

I mean, it's exactly what it says.

But then Liz is in my mind and she says, don't feel that way.

It doesn't matter.

I love you.

Everything's okay.

And then I get calm.

He is batshit crazy.

He's an angry fucking guy.

Why the fuck would you be her voice?

The only voice she has in the world right now when she's in prison?

I mean, some of the things he's posting just... Well, I don't know if this is

coming from him or her, but it just doesn't sound like her, like a response

like that.

But does Ernos have a technology from this? Yes, you fucking idiot. Like, she

would never say that.

She would never say that. But this is her Twitter, and it's, like, verified.

It's crazy.

Like, someone's asking, are you sharing a crypto token? And she goes, fuck off.

Like, in what world? That's not being supportive of her having a voice.

At all.

This is sort of a crazy one because someone asked her on Twitter, did you

watch the dropout?

And she wrote, never will.

But she's seen it. And when this documentary comes out, this will be seen

as a lie.

Nathan, I'm 99.9% sure she has no idea that that's been written.

So you can get a medium and split it into two cups.

Yeah,

that's what I'd recommend.

Thank you so much. When I left the prison the other day with both of the

kids in the car and just me, there's three cars tailing my car.

So I recorded an interview for the purpose of, like, if anything happens to

me, it goes live.

What do you mean by anything happens to you? Like if I'm killed or if I get hurt

or somebody tries to silence me, then...

Everything goes out.

So it's kind of like a insurance.

But do you feel like there's an imminent threat right now?

I mean, there's a reason why I carry a gun on me 24-7, 365.

You have a gun on you right now?

Oh, here. It worked. Yeah.

It is scary good if you give it the right data.

What's the goal with something like that?

Let people do whatever they want with it.

Huh. Yeah.

It's just like the public do it. Yeah, it's going to happen anyways.

So if you're going to have it happen, you might as well have the

representation of her like actually look like her. Right. Well, what if they

think images of her like having sex, like pornos?

Yeah. Not super weird. I think people are going to do that. Like there's no

stopping that.

Okay.

Let me ask you this.

Is Liz aware of the details of the deal you made

for her to appear in this documentary?

Which details?

So Liz told me before she went in. Well, she's aware of some of the details.

The stuff related to, like, the money?

No.

I purposely didn't want her to be aware of all of it. Why?

Because she was handling a lot of shit at the time.

Okay.

Be specific, and I'm happy to answer.

Be specific.

Is she interested in making money from this?

No.

The central thing that you guys have been trying to argue from the beginning

is Liz is someone who doesn't care about money. That's not what motivates her.

Yeah. So you're taking an action that directly puts that into question.

Yeah. And she didn't want to, but I'm practical.

Well, the reason I'm bringing this up is like, there's still like opportunity to

change this. I mean, when you profit off like.

the back end of a movie like that doesn't pay out until the movie comes

out so like you know

i hear you and i will

uh i'll think about it when

you said we said it was knew some of

the details of the deal that you made yeah what were those details oh gosh i

don't remember all i do remember is that

she was not involved in the process

so i don't remember what she saw or what she knew of um

all right i

don't know if she's ever seen that

Dear Elizabeth comma

I'd like to try to establish a direct line of communication to you

if that's something you'd be open to.

Period.

It's been challenging to talk like we used to.

Period. Billy is concerned about leaks to the press, and because your mail is

monitored, I know I can't say much.

Comma.

But you've been on my mind a lot lately, and I

have some questions that I think only you can answer.

Period. I'm in a hotel room in New York City right now.

I'm here because I recently went through a breakup.

But you don't have to worry about me.

I'm doing okay.

Exclamation point.

Billy had mentioned that there's no way to schedule a phone call with you.

at a specific time because it's first come, first serve in there and everyone

just has to wait in a really long line.

Period. So how about this?

I assume it's at least three days before you receive this letter.

So on December 19th, I'm going to be by my phone from 7 a.m. to

7 p.m. your time.

Texas time.

I really hope to hear from you that day, Liz.

Keep it up in there.

From,

Nathan.

Okay, Billy just messaged.

Liz said you wanted her to call this morning.

Is that still something you want? Can you give me context?

That she told him.

I was gonna say, would 8.15 her time work for her?

Hello?

Hello,

hey.

on the video to confirm the call, but she just left the video.

Okay. Can she call though?

Well,

I couldn't confirm it with her. I was trying to call you while she was on the

video to be able to tell her.

Oh, but I texted you that I'm around.

Yeah, but I wanted to get context.

Sorry. I thought it was already confirmed.

Is she gonna be around to talk?

Yeah, because I want it on camera.

It's a documentary.

I would say that it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

And I think that my willingness to facilitate your conversations with boys

are pretty low right now because, yeah, I would just say I don't know if you're

going to get that.

Well, why would you not want to facilitate things?

to confirm with you that you weren't going to be doing that

see now you're

not even acknowledging the fact that you're not doing it the warden is in a

place right now that if she gets light of you recording her while she's in

prison she'll be shipped to a different facility if anyone reports her while

she's in prison

If they think that she is knowingly facilitating recording,

she could get sent to a higher security facility, which means that the kids and

I wouldn't be able to see her on the weekends.

And the last thing that I want to do is to make it so I need to move to fucking

Arizona.

I just think, I just think we need to hear her.

I get it. The subject of your film.

You cannot talk to.

It makes for an impossible scenario.

I totally understand.

But if you guys are going to be putting this out, I can promise you she's going

to get fucked.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't... Just hope that you can see it from my perspective.

So we'll see if she calls you about it.

On. Oh, no.

Fuck.

No, I went to West now.

Oh, it's probably... Okay, give me your phone.

We're from a federal prison.

You will not be charged for this call. This call is from Elizabeth Holmes.

This call...

To accept this call, press 5.

To block this call, an all feature call, press 7.

To reject this call, hang up now.

You may begin speaking now.

We begin speaking now.

Hello.

Hey.

Hi.

I was trying to get a hold of you and it wouldn't let that phone number go

through, but I don't know if you guys are together.

Oh, yeah. You called Lance's phone.

Oh, yeah.

No worries.

How are you?

I'm good.

How are you doing?

Good. Can you move a little further away?

I've been thinking about you and everything that you've been going

through. I don't find the right person.

That's nice of you to say.

You know what it means, from going through all this?

It's nice to hear your voice.

I know.

We gotta get you out here soon.

Yeah.

I think that would be great.

You too.

The phone minutes are going to be short, by the way.

It's going to cut out.

How is your day been going?

What do you mean?

Pardon me?

What do you mean by that?

Oh,

just sort of open-ended. I don't know what's been going on. I was just

curious, just like small talk.

How's your day? It's like, well, I'm in a cell and locked down a lot. Mm-hmm.

I wanted to ask you something.

Oh, gosh. This guy's going to hang up. I won't be past my minutes, but I just,

you need to come visit.

Oh, yeah.

I want to see you.

We'll make it happen. Come, come, come.

Okay. Okay. All right. Bye.

Okay.

You just need to get there.

It's the only time you're going to have any private moments with her.

And I also think she's covering because she's being reported by the prison.

That's why she wants you to come.

But then the issue is sort of like, we don't have the ability to bring cameras

in there.

But you're going to have to just trust yourself.

Trust yourself in the fact that you're really going to ask him questions.

How you convey what I experience.

I will reenact whatever you want me to reenact.

And... I mean, this is no offense to you. You're a very talented actress.

Very good performer.

But, you know, you're not her.

No, I know. And so... But guess how many people believed that that was

her when I played her?

A lot.

I know, but the point isn't convincing people that this is her. The point is...

okay, whatever I discover in there, that should

be conveyed accurately.

What did he do?

He farted.

He's old.

Sorry, I'm a little sick.

What happened?

The first thing you do is you go through security.

You're not allowed any electronic device, no camera, no recording

equipment, not even a watch.

The only thing you're allowed to bring in is a credit card and your ID.

I know from talking to Billy that he doesn't show up right at the start of

the visitor time, which is 8 a.m. So my thinking is if I get there right at 8,

they'll have like a full hour with her at least before he shows up.

Then the door opens from the inside of the prison to the visitor room and two

other inmates come out.

Not her.

What are you thinking?

Well, there's no clock in the room, so I don't know how much time is passing.

And they're supposed to call her and she's supposed to be there within five

minutes. So I start looking for a clock and I can't find one.

Yeah. And then I sort of wander over to the vending machines and I'm looking at

those and I see there is a clock.

on the credit card reader on the vending machine.

And I see in there the time is like 8.30.

So I've been waiting for 20 minutes and she's not out yet.

I go back to my seat and I keep waiting.

And I start to wonder if she's going to show up at all.

So the door opens again, and it's her.

She looked right at me, came towards me. I stood up, and she hugged me.

And it was a very strong hug.

And I felt her body, like, vibrating, like shaking in the hug.

And it lasted about 10 seconds, I'd say.

Was her shaking?

Authentic. Yeah, that's how it felt from her.

Then immediately she says to me, You look different.

Oh yeah?

How? You seem more serious.

Did I not seem serious before?

So I don't know, whatever.

But we sit down, and I notice a family member of another inmate was carrying

just...

And she was like looking over at that. So I just felt, oh, like, do you

want some food? And she was like, that'd be great.

But you don't have to. We're just not allowed to buy snacks ourselves.

From the machines?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, no problem.

What do you want?

I like the turkey jerky.

Funny that she likes turkey jerky so much.

So you get to the vending machine, it's already 8.55, and you know Billy's

coming in like five minutes.

I know Billy comes around nine, so I just don't know how much time I have.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried, she says?

I mean, the way she says it is Seyfried.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried?

So she brings me up.

So yeah, she brought you up. Are you surprised by that?

She says, you know, people in here think that Amanda's show is a documentary.

They think everything in there happened.

A guard came up to me and said that I was a terrible person and I asked what

they had read.

And all they had seen was Amanda's show.

Yeah, I don't know really about that stuff.

I get treated worse in here because of... her portrayal of me.

And it's really fucked up that a woman would do something like that to another

woman.

Okay. Wow.

I didn't do that to her.

She did that to herself.

I think it's, I mean, my defenses are up because I'm like, yeah, I feel

bad for the way you're being treated here.

But also, it's not our job.

to teach people things.

I mean, I have nothing against Amanda personally, but the women who made their

show, all of them, they knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that the

show was filled with lies.

I mean, lies aren't, it's not lies. Like, those aren't lies.

It's fucking TV, you know.

If the show hadn't been made, people would still have fucking bullied her for

what they think she did.

When the machine exploded and blood sprayed out and then she said, you know

what? It doesn't matter.

Did that happen?

I don't know if she says, you know what? It didn't matter because she behaved as

though, you know what? It didn't matter.

But there's no... It's possible that she said that.

But that line is made up.

Yeah, absolutely. We weren't there. It's so painful to...

I'm just, I'm tired of having other people speak for me.

Just, I just don't want that to ever happen again.

I think this is all Billy getting into her head. What is it? It's a conspiracy

now?

Amanda's show?

Okay. Hmm.

Okay.

So, I'm starting to get a little nervous because we haven't gotten to the thing

that I came to talk about yet.

And I just don't know when Billy's going to show up.

So when we were with you a few years ago back in San Diego,

Del Mar, did Billy ever tell you the details of the deal he made for your

involvement in this project?

negotiated a contract to get paid a portion of the profits of the film.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not really involved in

that because it's just not really my thing.

Billy told me you knew some of the details about the deal he made.

What details did you know?

And Liz says, well, I knew he was talking to you about it.

Well, I knew that he was talking to you about it.

So she knew that when she went upstairs.

to check on the kids that the money stuff was going to be discussed

because she's telling you she knew.

And that clarifies the fact that she had knowledge of the deal, which is very

strange.

And it does start, it's starting to feel like she, it's just trying to keep her

hands clean.

Because it's interesting because when she said that to me,

How'd you feel?

I didn't instantly receive it as, or

she must be deceiving me, so maybe she didn't actually say it like this, I'm

wondering. Maybe she said, well, I knew he was talking to you about something,

not it.

Well, those are two different words, for sure.

And, yeah, I feel confident about that.

Okay. So can you change that in your script, actually? Will you

change it to something?

I knew that he was talking to you about something.

He did?

Yeah. Again, this is more his thing.

We are very separate on these things.

I guess what I'm wondering is, is this something that you want?

Because there still is time to change it.

It's not my world.

And more, it doesn't pertain to me, you know? It was not my focus at the time.

How does it not pertain to you?

You negotiated a deal to profit off your participation in this movie. A deal that

you're both going to benefit from.

And you keep ringing this bell that you don't care about money.

I don't.

Okay, so you have...

No opinion about how turning this thing into an opportunity for profit is going

to affect that perception of you? I completely understand where you're

coming from, and if you think it's bad for the project, I'll talk to Billy.

But our finances are completely separate.

Come on, Liz.

You have kids together.

So whether or not she knew about the financial part of the deal is one thing.

Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

But I could not get a sense of how she felt about it. And it almost seemed like

she had no opinion of her own. Let me talk to Billy.

And I'm sure whatever the path is, it'll be the right one.

This is so frustrating.

How is she going to get any help if she's just like hiding behind this

jackass?

I find it interesting that you can be someone who doesn't care about money,

but you're intertwined with someone who does, and you're not

eager to influence decisions in that relationship.

Does that actually mean you don't care about money?

Sort of hard to tell, right?

Nathan, I don't have the option to care about money. I owe hundreds of millions

of dollars of restitution.

Every dollar I make, they take from me.

I promise I'll talk to him.

Are you even aware of the decisions he's making on your behalf?

That photo of yourself that you hate is currently blown up on billboards all

across America. I heard about that.

He told you about that?

I mean, he's created an AI version of you that can say whatever he wants it to

say. And he's pretending to be you on Twitter and...

Telling people to go fuck themselves?

I can't imagine that these are things that you want.

Billy has his own way of doing things.

Okay.

This whole experience, this fire that we're going through together,

it's just annealed our love in...

Such an intense way.

And Neil?

Yeah.

I feel him so deeply.

Even when I'm in my cell, alone, you know, I...

I feel him with me.

And we don't need you to speak.

And that's how I talk to him.

I have conversations with him in my head.

And I know what he's feeling and what he would say.

Okay, let's keep going.

I see these couples who've been together for years and years, and they're

supposedly in love, but you can see that they're not.

I was like, why?

Why?

I've never had that.

And I don't have to pretend with you.

It's so, it's just so real, you guys.

Oh, we're building a body of love for each other each and every day.

Ever since Billy has come into my life, I've become

convinced. That our idea of what we believe to be God is actually

love.

I mean, I don't know if this is like a Stockholm Syndrome symptom.

I don't know. I guess in the moment, I...

I thought it was, like, kind of nice.

Are you kidding me? He's the most selfish?

He's a, he's a narcissist.

Well, I think the love is, like, real.

I did not sense.

Duress.

I did not sense fear.

I sensed just complete, unbridled, genuine love for this man.

Okay,

I think I'm going to cut out. I'll give you guys some time. You sure you don't

want to stay?

Yeah. Okay, let's go outside.

I'll get permission.

I'm just curious if there were

moments or was a moment when you guys were alone in the prison.

And I'm just wondering if there was maybe a moment where she was

being deceitful or manipulative.

And you're not including it because you're being protective of her.

Why would you think I was doing that?

I don't know.

What do you mean? I don't know. I feel like... Coming from nowhere?

No, I just feel like maybe you're just...

To portray something that might hurt her?

Why would I not want to portray something that might hurt her?

Because you care about her?

I'm not putting, I'm not really putting my feelings into this.

I'm trying not to.

I'm trying to be accurate.

Why are you smiling?

It's very complicated