Original subtitles

Hi, everybody. Still at home.

Thanks for joining me on Apple TV+.

During this time, I know a lot of people are feeling

the sense of being isolated

and the uncertainty of not knowing

when is this going to end,

when are we gonna be released back into the world.

Well, I know a man who knows a lot about that.

Back in 2016,

I met Shaka Senghor.

Let me tell you about him.

He not only survived an extreme form of isolation,

but taught himself to use that time

to grow and improve his life.

At 19, Shaka was convicted of second-degree murder,

served 19 years in prison for four consecutive years.

He was alone in solitary confinement

inside a 6 by 9-foot cell

with no link to the outside world

and never knowing if he would ever get out.

He shared his story in his New York Times bestselling memoir.

Great memoir, it is.

Writing My Wrongs.

I wanted to talk to him again now because

even if you think you can't relate to something

as extreme as prison,

I think we can learn from how

he was able to endure isolation.

Real isolation.

Morning, Shaka, Shaka!

-Good morning, how are you? -How you doing?

-Good to see you. -I'm good.

Likewise. So good to see you as well.

Well, thanks for sending me the article that you did

on the onset of this pandemic

where you wrote for Medium,

What Four Years in Solitary Confinement

Taught Me About Surviving Isolation.

I want to talk about that in a moment.

But for people who are meeting you for the first time--

there may be a few around the world--

can you explain to them how you grew up,

what your dreams were,

and how you ended up in prison in solitary confinement?

Yeah, so I grew up in the city of Detroit

in what on the outside looking in

was a model for working middle-class black America.

Two-parent household.

But unfortunately, there were things happening

inside of our household.

[Oprah] Not just two-parent household.

Two-parent household, beautiful tree-lined street,

you know, the American dream.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, every--

we were living like the black Brady Brunch.

I mean, that's how my siblings and I always described it

in terms of, like, you know, we had the brick home,

you know, sitting right in the middle of the block,

fruit trees all around, and everything

you could imagine a great start for a kid would be.

-And during that time-- -You were a straight A student.

Had dreams of becoming a doctor.

[Shaka] Yeah, absolutely.

I wanted to be a doctor, and, you know,

growing up, that was my vision.

You know, I thought that would be a career profession

that my mother would be proud of and would love.

But unfortunately,

things weren't always what they appeared in the household

and I found myself running away

when I was around 13 or 14 years old.

And,

you know, I ended up in this street culture,

a very adult street culture.

I was super naive and easily manipulated

like so many other young men and women are

in that culture, you know, where they get exploited

by older, more seasoned hustlers.

And I experienced every imaginable horror

that comes with that culture,

from childhood friends being murdered

to being robbed at gunpoint,

and eventually, at the age of 17,

I was shot multiple times

standing on the corner of my block.

And one of the things that I recognize now very clearly

is the level of PTSD that came as a result of that experience

and how that impacted my life decisions.

And 16 months later,

found myself in a conflict about 2:00 in the morning.

And that conflict escalated relatively quickly.

And I fired what turned out to be four fatal shots

that tragically caused a man's death.

I was subsequently arrested, charged with open murder,

and sentenced to a total of 17 to 40 years in prison.

And you served how many years? 19?

I eventually served a total of 19 years.

Seven of those years was in solitary confinement

with the longest stretch being 4 1/2 years straight.

And now you've come out and done miraculous things.

You've been out now ten years.

[Shaka] Yeah, June will mark my tenth year at home.

It's been an unbelievable journey

of second chances,

something I'm a great advocate of.

I believe in the power of redemption

largely because I live it.

I life my life fully transparent

and present in the turnaround.

And, you know, I knew that when I came back home,

one of my biggest responsibilities

was serving the community,

especially young men and women who have grown up

in an environment similar to where I came from.

And I knew I wanted to lend my voice to them

in a real meaningful way.

Yeah, one of the things you said that struck me

in 2016 for Super Soul Sunday--

it's still one of my favorite interviews of all time.

[Shaka] Mine as well.

[Oprah] What struck me is that you said

you believed and knew in your heart

that nobody is the worst thing they've ever done.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean--

And that's why redemption is necessary, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you know, when I reflected back,

for years, it took me a long time to get there

because I felt so guilty for the decision I made.

And I felt horrible. I felt horrible as a person.

[stammers] You know, it took me a long time to get--

'Cause you took another man's life.

Absolutely, and devastated a family

and caused a great deal of harm to my community.

And, you know, that was one of the things

that made it hard for me to come to that realization

that that was one moment in my life.

So in that ten years that

you have been out of prison,

you have done extraordinary work

to turn your life around and to show yourself

to be worthy of that redemption.

What are you most proudest of

that you've done in the past ten years being free?

Yeah, I think the thing that I'm most proud of

is the impact I've been able to have on young men and women

through the various schools that I've adopted

throughout the country.

It enriches my life

in ways that I never even thought possible.

[Oprah] Mm.

You were in pri--

during those years where you were in--

which brings us to why we're talking about this pandemic.

You were in the mainstream prison for a period of time,

but you were in solitary confinement,

like, in a 5 by 7 prison cell,

alone, for how long?

Yes, so it was a 23-hour lockdown

five days out of the week,

24 hours the other two days.

I served a total of seven years in solitary,

but 4 1/2 years straight

was the longest I served in solitary.

-Wow. -Yeah.

And so... [chuckles]

There are people who are now, as you know--

that's why you wrote that article--

feeling isolated with three weeks.

And you have a few things to say about

how to deal with isolation.

How does one not lose one's mind?

One of the things that I realized

when I was in solitary the last time,

the first two years, I was very anxious.

I was very stressed out.

And I realized that I was trying to control things

that were beyond my control.

And so what I did is,

I began to shift the way that I saw the environment,

shift the way that I saw myself,

and realized that I can only focus on

what was in front of me, what I can control,

and focus on the moment.

I think as humans, we tend to live in two places

that we just don't have any control over--

our pasts, which no longer exists,

and the future that hasn't arrived yet,

and a lot of times, we miss the magic of the moment.

And for me, I knew that if I can get past

the pain of those moments,

I can come out on the other side.

And it's one of the reasons

I decided to write the piece for Medium.

Yes, well, you wrote this about your time in prison.

"There were days when the ghosts of the past

and the uncertainty of the future

threatened to crush the little bit of hope I had

of ever being free."

And you go on to say,

"Remember each moment is all we really have."

So I think this present moment living,

which I've been talking about for 20 years on my past show,

on Super Soul Sunday,

being able to live in the present moment

'cause that's all we have--

how did you learn to do that for yourself,

and how can you help other people get it?

I think the first steps was just reading.

I was reading everything I could get my hands on

'cause I really wanted to understand

how we process things in the midst of trauma,

and who I had become in the midst of my own trauma.

And so reading and meditating--

you know, I started meditating when I was about 20 years old

and I was in solitary at the time.

And I had--I didn't even know what the word "meditation" was,

but I came across this pamphlet,

and it was just like, you know, focus on your breathing.

And I remember those first moments were horrifying

because everything that, you know,

bad had happened in my life was coming up, and I was like,

"Oh, I don't want to deal with all this."

But I stayed with it.

And so being able to center myself in that way

has just been one of the best gifts.

Well, after many years in prison

and a lot of spiritual reflection,

I know from your book, Writing My Wrongs,

which is still one of my favorite memoirs ever,

that you were finally able to turn your cell into--

that 5 by 7 cell into a space of enlightenment,

of creativity.

You made your cell a space of higher learning.

Absolutely, one of the--

I knew that the only thing I had control over is my mind

and what is in my mind, and I was really fortunate.

I had some of the most incredible mentors

when I was in prison.

These men gave me books-- the importance of me

even when I didn't believe in myself.

They saw something in me.

And I'm so thankful that they guided me to books

because when I was in solitary, I structured my days

as if I was at a university of higher learning.

And I would study and I would read and I would write.

And writing for me was like meditation.

Like, I'd journal.

It was the first time I had began a journal,

and to really see myself clearly

through the written word was so powerful

because I understood that my thinking had lead me there

and I believed in the laws

that if it can lead me down a path of negativity,

it can absolutely lead me down a path of positivity

'cause those laws are unwavering.

It's just all about the focus,

and so journaling helped me see that.

Writing letters to my family and friends

really helped me see myself clearly.

Creating a vision board, you also did.

I knew never this until I read this Medium article

that you created a vision board--

did you ever tell me?

I don't think you told me this--

that you created a vision board,

and I was on that vision board.

Absolutely.

The vision board that you wanted to one day

be interviewed by me.

[Shaka] Yes.

And then that ended up happening.

Yeah, so when I wrote my first book,

I wrote my first book in solitary.

And I asked the guys on the tier

if they wanted to read the book.

And one of the guys was like, "Man, be quiet.

This is not Oprah's book club."

And instead of getting upset, I was like, "This is a goal.

I want to be interviewed by the woman who loves to read books."

-And I wrote that goal down. -[chuckles]

You've been working to make sure

we don't turn our backs on the prison population.

I was talking to Dr. Bruce Perry the other day

and we were sharing--

as you and I have discussed too--

that when we all come out of this,

the people who were marginalized before

are going to be even marginalized now

and it is up to those of us who are people of privilege

to do what we can.

What do you want people to know about

the men and women who are currently incarcerated,

and how we can show them compassion?

It is the scariest thing right now.

I literally just got off a call this morning

with a friend of mine-- he's one of my mentors,

one of my longest-serving mentors.

He's getting out of prison in a few weeks.

He just served 47 years.

And he said it is horrifying in there right now.

They don't have enough information,

so they've given some people masks.

But they haven't given them information

on how to maintain the sanitary--

sanitizing the masks.

Just recently, I raised money to send 100,000 masks

to several jails and prisons throughout the country.

You did that with Reform Alliance, right?

With Meek Mill and Jay-Z, yeah.

Yeah, Reform Alliance.

And we partnered on that and I had some donors who said,

"Hey, let's help."

But it's horrifying in there right now.

And we really have to think about--

we have the freedom to socially distance.

Women and men in prison, they don't, you know?

So they're forced to be in cells together,

oftentimes in big spaces where there's, you know,

30 to 40 men or women at any given time in one space

with limited access to showers and things like that.

And, you know, the reality is, if we don't act now,

we really have a humanity crisis on our hands.

And I think this is a defining moment for us as Americans,

is we're either going to realize

that we're really courageous or we're really cowardly.

And so, you know, it's--

you know, you're thinking about people who are at home

insecure with food, insecure--

like, this is our time to redefine

what is possible for our country.

Yeah, it's also a time for us to redefine ourselves.

Those who have children at home

and relationships with our children--

I know over the years, every time I'd ask people,

you know, "What would make you happy?"

People always said,

"Oh, just being able to spend more time with my children."

[laughter]

People want to have so much time with their children.

They're like, "Something else would make me happy."

But I know you have a beautiful son, Sekou.

What are you telling Sekou about this time,

and how are you managing your time with him?

[Shaka] So Sekou is a wonderful child.

Ebony and I, his mom, we started early on

really just talking to him as, you know,

we were talking to one of our peers.

So he's very informed. He loves to learn.

And the more he knows about something,

the less anxiety he feels, you know?

-[Oprah] Yeah. -[Shaka] So Sekou and I,

we've been making dance videos.

We've started this little book club.

[laughs]

So he's having so much fun

just making his little videos about books he read.

Oh, Sekou trying to give me competition

with the Sekou Book Club.

Listen, Sekou is hilarious with his book club.

So as one who's spent a lot of time being self-isolated,

you don't feel that this time is an isolating time.

No, I mean, there's a very,

you know, big difference, you know?

And I really want people to really get this

'cause I think people are being a little bit harsh

on themselves even with the language.

This is quarantine.

We still have the option to go out in our backyard

and walk around.

We still can safely socially distance

as we go out into the grocery store.

You know, obviously, we want people to be safe.

But there is a difference between quarantine

and not having your freedom

and not having the ability to socially isolate.

Exercise even without the gym.

I mean, there's so many different ways.

When I was in prison,

I would roll my mattress up and tie a sheet around it

and then I would just use that to exercise with.

I mean, you could put water in jugs and things like that.

So there's so many things that we have at our advantage--

Or--or, Shak, you could learn to make prison wine.

Absolutely, I would definitely teach a course on that.

[laughter]

Prison wine.

We should do, like, a master class on it.

Oh, my gosh.

A lot of geniuses using their imagination in prison.

-Absolutely -Well, thank you so much.

This is a good time, everybody, to read Shaka's book,

Writing My Wrongs, one of the best memoirs ever.

-[Shaka] Oh, thank you so much. -[Oprah] Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Shaka Senghor, thank you.

-Talk soon. -Talk soon.

-Bye. -Bye.