Original subtitles

Hi, everybody.

We're still in lockdown in California.

I hope you and your family are faring well.

Today on Apple TV+ Oprah Talks

I wanted to have a conversation about mindfulness.

Now, it may be a term

that you've heard over the years.

It's actually a principle that I've been using in my life

for a very long time,

and I practice it daily, but I have to tell you

it really is an offering of assurance

when you're in challenging times,

this principle of mindfulness.

I'm gonna talk to the man

who's known as the father of mindfulness,

Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn.

So, his credentials,

he's professor of medicine emeritus

at the University of Massachusetts Medical School,

where he is the one, among others,

who founded its world-renowned mindfulness space

Stress Reduction Clinic.

And with all the challenges that we are facing today,

I thought having this practice of mindfulness

introduced to us by Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn

would help us navigate these unchartered waters

we're all in.

Jon Kabat-Zinn,

I've been thinking a lot about you

for such a time as this.

We've had multiple conversations over the years.

I think we first started talking about

mindfulness in the '90s on The Oprah Show.

Yep.

One of the reasons I wanted to speak to you

and have you speak to the world

through this Apple format

is that in one of our last conversations,

you said, "As long as you are breathing,

there is more right with you than wrong with you

no matter what is wrong."

And so I think those words

or that mantra

and have that be a part of our space

in this particular moment,

our living space at this moment,

as long as you are breathing,

there is more right with you

than wrong with you

no matter what is wrong with you.

I think it's a good thing to remind ourselves,

particularly in this moment.

Yes, and the irony of it is that

that's what the COVID-19 virus

threatens the most in us.

But this is the kind of entry portal

into sanity and clarity

at a time of very great threat and danger.

And so that's what meditation practice

has always been is connecting

with the full dimensionality of the present moment

without getting lost in fear,

for instance, or lost in thought

and a kind of thinking that tries to strategize

how I get the best

out of a bad situation or, you know,

just focusing on myself

and my own small self-interest.

And the beauty-- the sort of hidden lining

in a catastrophe like this

is that we see an outpouring of generosity

and kindness and caring for each other

because the fact of the matter is,

we're all in this together.

-Right. -We're all in this together.

It's like all hands on deck on spaceship earth, basically.

So this means that

if you're not a first responder,

you're doing this for the benefit of humanity

to keep yourself sequestered. Even if it's difficult.

Even if your home situation is challenging.

Or worse,

if you don't have a home. If you're homeless.

If you're one of the people in this society

lacking in some of the basic privileges

of being a member of our, you know, society or culture.

That all clearly needs to change.

If we don't take care of everybody,

then we're not going to take care of

what's most important.

So how--what advice would you give people

to specifically begin to cope with the stress?

I mean, so many people are at home

with people all the time.

You're confined in small spaces--

It gets on your nerves.

It's getting on your nerves.

You're trying to hold onto your mind.

-How can people... -Right.

Begin to cope with the stress and anxiety?

Okay, so mindfulness is really awareness.

And this is kind of like a hidden gold mine

for human beings is that we get a lot of training

in thinking

and we kind of naturally emotionally react.

But we get no training on how to access

this profound form of intelligence

called awareness. So it's nothing special.

We have it all the time.

The question is, can we trust it?

Can we learn to inhabit it?

And so when you see your mind

getting agitated or depressed

or angry or irritable

and even at your children who, of course we love,

but when, you know, we are-- our work is being challenged

and we've got these kids at home

and we don't know how to maximize the day,

this is a time to actually drop in

on awareness itself

including awareness of our reactivity,

our emotional reactivity, our anger,

our shortness of temper. All of those kinds of things.

You can do that by tuning into your breathing.

Because your breathing will broadcast

or telegraph what you're reacting to.

That you're getting stressed out.

So you're saying, come back to your breath.

-Just come back-- -[Jon] Exactly.

-[Jon] You're feeling it. -So come back to your breath

meaning when you're feeling stress

and you see yourself getting out of control,

change that thought

and just become aware of your breath.

Exactly. But you don't need to change the thought.

You just don't need to pursue it.

-Or the emotions. -Don't pursue the thought.

So then you see awareness becomes a refuge.

-Aha. -You can actually take refuge

in your own awareness

which is vast and super intelligent.

Isn't it important to not suppress the feelings,

because you can't tell people not to worry.

But to at least give yourself

a limited amount of time to worry.

So sit with the feeling of uncertainty.

Sit with the feeling of

you're not sure what's gonna happen.

Sit with the feeling of worry

if you must.

But learning how to rest

in the not knowing

is really important right now, I've heard you say.

You are such a super meditation teacher.

-[laughs] -I mean, that's it.

And the more we do this,

the more we're going to come out of this

better and stronger and wiser

because, you know, this is not gonna be

the last pandemic we face.

The country is-- really needs--

it's an opportunity to look at our priorities

and how we define ourselves

because we're all in this together.

It is all hands on deck on spaceship earth, as I said.

And, you know, we need to learn how to honor each other in ways

that perhaps we've not done up to this point.

I think that's so difficult,

particularly for Type As out there,

people who having the certainty,

or having had the certainty that things--

particularly people of privilege,

are--and we are among those people of privilege--

For sure.

Who are accustomed-- that would be everybody

who's accustomed to waking up

and really expecting things today

to be like they were yesterday.

See, this is the big, powerful lesson

to be learned here is that nobody ever has the right

to expect things to be the way they were yesterday.

It's what's called ignorance.

It's delusion.

And the fact that we've gotten away

with it for so long doesn't mean that

that's going to be the way things are

all the time, and when you learn that change

defines everything, the unexpected,

the impermanence of everything, then you have,

and this is the heart of mindfulness practice,

then you have an entirely different repertoire

of capacities to bring to the present moment.

And that not knowing,

suspending judgment element of it,

and not getting out in front of yourself,

that can make the difference between life and death,

sanity and insanity, and kindness

and self-interest run amok.

Right.

So since so many people are at home dealing with work

or kids or a sick loved one,

what are those simple mindfulness techniques?

You know, I loved when you--

you've said this to me many times.

And I think it's in one of the books.

That when you're in the shower, just be in the shower.

-Yeah. -Yeah.

Yeah, I use that as an example because,

you know, every moment is an opportunity

to actually practice being present.

So a lot of the time when we're in the shower,

we're worrying or we're thinking

about the next meeting we're going to go to

or work or whatever.

You're saying you have your 10:00 meeting

in the shower before you even get to

-the 10:00 meeting. -That's right.

You have the whole meeting in the shower

with you in your own mind.

And that's the way we are as human beings.

So that's just an example.

Like when you're brushing your teeth,

can you brush your teeth?

[Oprah] Be right there.

Here is something that might be a valuable suggestion

for a lot of us who are basically,

you know, staying in place at home

and practicing social distancing.

When you wake up in the morning...

try to wake up like 10 minutes earlier.

So that you're in charge of something.

You have decided to control some aspect of life

because so much of it is out of our control.

And for those extra 10 minutes that you're giving yourself,

lie on your back

and just appreciate the fact that you're breathing.

Appreciate the fact that you can let your awareness

fill the body and feel the body

from the sensations in the bottoms

of your feet and your toes

right up through the top of your head

and from the fingers and thumbs

right up through your shoulders.

And just ask yourself,

am I awake in this moment?

Can I feel my breathing? Am I okay now, for now?

And all you need to do is be okay for now.

Because there's no predicting the next moment of now.

Yes.

I mean, they've been estimating, like, you know,

certain stressors will take years off your life.

But not if you have effective ways of handling it.

[Oprah] Okay, Jon, I want to take people

back to exactly what you said

'cause that's how I have gotten through

every crisis in my life.

I remember when there was a terrible thing

that had happened at my school during the first year.

This is over, you know, 13 years ago now

there was a crisis at my school.

-[Jon] In South Africa. -In South Africa.

And I got through it by just completely coming back

to exactly what you just said.

Right now, I'm okay. Right now, I'm okay.

Right now, I'm okay.

And then, in the next moment, now what do I do?

What is the next right move?

But right now, I'm okay. Right now, I'm okay.

And making the next right move depending on what's going on

in your household is, hug your children.

Or help wake them up and connect with them

-in a way that... -Yeah.

Right now appreciates how okay they are.

So you being okay,

appreciating them being okay,

even if they're driving you crazy

-under the circumstances. -[Oprah] Yes.

It's very challenging.

But when you remember that,

then in this moment, you're already grounded.

-[Oprah] Yeah. -You're already calm.

You're already in touch with what's most important.

-[Oprah] I think that that is-- -And the next moment

will take care of itself.

And the next moment is gonna take care of itself

I think is a very important thing

for everyone to remind yourself

of now that I'm okay.

We're okay.

You have a roof over your head.

You have enough food.

Hopefully you have enough toilet paper.

You have enough toilet paper.

-[Jon] True. -And right now, we're okay.

-We're okay. -[Jon] For now.

For now. So how important is it

for parents to practice this mindfulness

in order to benefit their children?

Because I think the children are--

easy for me to say, I know.

So you all don't even have to tell me that.

Easy for me to say because I don't have

young children in the house.

But I do know that young children

are going to mimic the energy

that the parents bring into the home.

Not just the words and the angst.

But they're going to mimic the energy.

Not only that, but depending on their age,

I mean, if you were in school

and all of a sudden you're not in school,

if you have friends and all of a sudden

the only way you can see them is on some device,

but you can't play in the usual way,

they're experiencing their own interior

sort of disruption, if not complete disillusion

of what was meaningful to them.

And so falling back on the household

and on the family and on their core relationships

with parents and grandparents and so forth,

this is key to their being minimally traumatized

going forward so that, again,

it's like not just as long as you're breathing

remembering there's more right with you than wrong with you.

But that as long as we're here together, we're okay.

-We're safe for now. -We're okay.

It's not like we're refugees.

We might feel like we're refugees.

But we're also kind of closeted

in a way that gives us refuge.

And the real refuge isn't in our house or our home.

The real refuge is in our heart.

And that's something that every one of us can do.

And there's no prescription for it.

It's not like, oh, if only I'd learned this 30 years ago

and was a good meditator and everything.

Then I'd be able to handle this now.

No. The world is now our meditation teacher,

whether we want it or not, whether we like it or not.

And the question is, are we gonna get

-with this curriculum? -Yeah.

Or are we going to be stuck with some idea

of clinging to something that was important to us

yesterday but now we're in a different universe.

Yeah, I think it's--you know, what is this here to teach us?

I would think one of the things is

we have been forced inside

in order to look inward.

-[Jon] And to wake up. -And to wake up.

Yeah, because if you're just looking in there

-and nothing happens... -This is huge.

-You don't wake up. -This is huge.

Well, I know 20,000 people joined you

in a meditation the other day, which is an example of--

20,000 people from around the world

which just speaks to how people are yearning

-for something deeper and... -Yeah.

More fulfilling and richer in this moment.

Can you just guide us in a minute's meditation?

-Sure. -Sure.

Because the real meditation is outside of time.

-So a minute is very good. -[Oprah] A minute's good.

Even one in breath

and one out breath is very good.

So especially if you've never had any experience

with formal meditation,

you don't even need to sit

in some special posture or anything.

You can do it lying down in bed when you wake up.

-Or in the shower. -[Oprah] I like that.

Or, you know, dancing with your children

or playing games on the floor with your children

or doing puzzles or whatever.

But the way to practice is

for one minute can we just right now,

-because we're here right now. -[Oprah] Yes.

Drop in on the feeling of being fully aware

of the breath moving in and out of our body.

Can we just feel the breath?

It doesn't mean thinking about it.

But feeling the breath moving in and moving out.

Our eyes should be closed, right?

No, your eyes can be open. I mean--

Okay.

Meditation wouldn't be very valuable

if you had to close your eyes all the time.

especially if you were fighting fires of one kind or another.

-Or performing surgery. -Yes.

Or intubations.

So it's moment by moment.

Whatever you're doing is the meditation.

But can we feel that the breath

is moving in and out of our body?

-[Oprah] Mm-hmm. -Can we feel the body

as a whole sitting here breathing?

Can we be aware of the boundless spaciousness

of our awareness itself?

Through which, like the sky, you know, clouds

and storms and weather patterns will arise

that will look like fear or will look like,

you know, depression or will look like anxiety

or will look like anger

and blame and self-righteousness

and other-ing and all of that kind of stuff.

And just realize those are--

those are storm patterns in your own mind.

-Mm. -And you don't have to fix

anything or make anything go away.

The invitation is to simply drop in

and be the awareness

that knows non-conceptually,

not just thought-based,

that all of this is unfolding and that none of it is you.

Mm.

That the essence of you is the awareness itself.

And if you can learn how to inhabit the space

of your own awareness, like take up residency,

so to speak, in your own awareness,

then you've got extra dimensions

of being in your toolbox

that you can bring to every single moment

that you're facing throughout the day.

Every day is changing so fast.

Every hour is changing so fast.

The only thing we can do, really,

to not lose our minds,

is to actually trust in the unfolding

of this moment,

embraced in awareness,

and our own profoundly intelligent intuition

to navigate the ups and downs with integrity,

with kindness, with self-compassion,

and with compassion for others.

And then you can rest for a few breaths in silence.

I've done a lot of talking just to prime the ramp,

so to speak. Or prime the pump.

But now the invitation is to just drop into stillness.

Just for one in breath.

Just for one out breath.

And here we are again.

And the breath, the beauty of it is, of course,

you can't leave home without it, as they say.

-Yeah. -So it's portable.

And whether--you know, no matter what you're doing,

you can bring that to bear.

And it can remind you and re-body you, I should say,

in ways that allow us to be with

what's totally appropriate what's called for now

given our circumstances

whether we're, you know, practicing social distancing

or whether we're on the front lines

in one way or another of saving the world.

Social distancing is its own retreat, you say.

It is. Every moment.

The real retreat--

but this has always been the case.

I mean, forever, in all meditative traditions,

the real retreat is not going off on retreat.

The real retreat and the final exam,

-so to speak, is life itself. -Is right--

-It's life itself. -Yeah.

And that's the final exam. And no one asked for it.

But we're facing the final exam right now.

And it invites us to bring out

the absolute best in who we are.

Is this the final exam or is this just a big ole test

that a lot of us weren't prepared for?

Well, it's a big test because there's no ultimate final exam.

We're going to make it through this.

But as I said, there will be other challenges in the future.

But if we use this as a wake-up call for humanity,

not just for Americans or not just for me myself,

then actually I think we'll learn some lessons here

that will be beneficial for generations to come

as we transform our understanding

of what it truly means to be human

and the profound interconnectedness

that is associated with our capacity

to actually live life the way it really matters.

Live our lives as if they really mattered.

And we're not in isolation.

And it's not all about me

being the center of the universe.

We're all, in some sense,

so deeply profoundly interconnectedness

that when I take care of me

in this kind of non-narcissistic way

by attending to my own experience,

I'm making space for other people

to do the same and being able to tune to them

in ways where they will feel recognized,

seen, felt, heard, appreciated, and that's love.

So if we're closing, I'd really like to say

that this kind of paying attention on purpose

in the present moment non-judgmentally,

as best we can, or mindfulness,

is really a radical act of sanity,

even when it's not, like, such a crazy time.

And it's also a radical act of love.

And, you know, love of life,

not love of me, myself, in some small sense,

but in the much larger sense.

So if you're still breathing, if you're not dead yet,

the future hasn't happened.

And when that becomes your default mode

and you inhabit that in a certain way

by exercising the muscle that you were suggesting

of mindfulness and compassion

and open-hearted presence...

-That's the love affair. -[Oprah] Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you, Jon Kabat-Zinn.

Beautiful.