Original subtitles

Thank you for joining me on Apple TV+

from my home in Lockdown, California.

Well, like so many of you, I've been watching

the heartbreaking news coming out of Italy

as COVID-19 surpasses China

with deaths in Italy.

They are now at the epicenter of this virus.

And so I've been to Italy so many times--

I love the culture,

love the vibrancy of the people,

love the food--

and now Italians find themselves

being brought to their knees

in the eye of the storm of this virus.

So I wanted to talk to two people there

on the ground

who can help us understand what this has meant

for the people of Italy

as well as what this could mean

to millions of others, to us, around the world.

Hello, Monica Maggioni. Good morning.

Good morning, Oprah.

-[Oprah] Yeah. -Pleasure being here.

[Oprah] Thank you for talking with me.

I know you're one of Italy's most respected journalists

and also the CEO of Rai Com,

which is a division of Italian public television.

I just wanted to tell those who are watching

a little bit about you.

You're also a veteran news anchor

who spent much of your career as a war correspondent

in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

And you're now in lockdown.

Tell us first about your own personal situation.

I heard that you had to make a decision

between your parents and your husband.

Well, yes, because, you know, it happened all of a sudden.

We didn't have that much time to make a decision,

and so I normally live in between Rome and Milan

where I tend to have both my families,

but all of a sudden, we realized

that someone had to stay close to the other parents

and so I decided to come here.

Here means just half an hour from Milan

in the middle of the red area of Lombardy,

and it's a total lockdown.

And explain to us what that means.

I mean, I'm in a total lockdown in California.

You all were much earlier than we were,

and I think part of the issue in Italy with so many deaths

is that there was confusion about whether

it was a complete lockdown

or whether you still could go out

and associate with your friends but keep a distance, correct?

Yes, obviously, it took a while to understand

exactly to what extent it was a lockdown,

and at the beginning, it was especially in this area

in Lombardy, because it's exactly where

the biggest outbreak took place.

Then it arrived in all Italy,

but the problem is that at the beginning,

it was perceived like you can do something

and not many other things,

so you cannot gather in big groups,

you have to keep a distance,

but right now, it's a total lockdown,

meaning you have to fill a form to go and get groceries,

and it's strongly suggested to go once a week

or one person per family,

and you're supposed not to move.

Just you have the possibility to move

for extremely urgent situations.

-[Oprah] So... -Which means...crisis.

Which means if you're caught out on the street,

just doing activity that pleases you,

you could be fined.

Absolutely, it's more than fined, it's--

you're gonna go to the jury

and they could be super, super tough,

because all of a sudden, what has been realized

is that this lockdown is one of the few means

that we have to use to try to fight this virus,

and so we're trying to do that to the maximum extent.

I understand that this virus has hit your family personally,

that you lost an uncle.

Yes, it happened three days ago.

It was-- he was a priest.

He was my mom's brother.

But you know, Oprah, what is really sad is this,

is that you're not only you are in a lockdown

but you don't have any chance to stay close

to those who are passing away,

because what happens is that, for instance,

my uncle, he was in a house for the elders

just few hundred meters from my house,

but it was impossible to go and see him.

Not only, even the burial is done by himself,

with just one priest,

and you cannot even go and mourn them,

and this is really, really sad

and this is taking a huge toll on families, on people,

and there are so many.

Imagine how many friends of mine called me these days,

saying, "Hey, my dad passed away,"

"My mother passed away,"

"These friends passed away."

It's-- it's really tough.

Mm.

I'm sorry for the loss in your family

and for really everybody's loss.

You know, we mourn the loss of people we don't even know,

but something you wrote in the "Washington Post"

actually got my attention.

It's why I wanted to talk to you.

On the 13th, you wrote an opinion piece

on the crisis for the "Washington Post,"

and the title actually stopped me in my tracks.

You called it, "In Italy, We Live in Silence,

We Die in Silence, and We Wait."

And in it, you wrote, "I find myself confined

"in a place where time is suspended,

"where everything is absolutely still

"outside my window.

"No sign of life.

"The sound of ambulances breaks the silence

from time to time."

And you admit to turning a blinding eye yourself

to what was happening in China,

which I think the whole world did.

You know, this is such an incredible example

for all of us, of how we are connected in ways

that we never even realize

and that what affects one

even in another part of the globe,

affects us all,

so let's speak to that blinding eye

that you turned and I think all of us turned.

I mean, I remember when, hearing it, about China,

thinking, "Oh, that's them over there.

Too bad. Sorry."

Not really even engaging.

No, you're right, you're totally right, Oprah.

Because you know, even now, while we are talking,

out of this window,

there is literally no sound at all.

No sound, no human being,

just the ambulances from time to time,

and sometimes even very often, but now it's my life,

what happened before,

why, even as a reporter, when I saw this China thing,

was remote.

It's because we-- we are in denial.

I mean, we speak about globalization, yes,

but what we forget is that globalizations mean

that now as a planet, we are all connected.

There is absolutely nothing that can happen

even very far away that is not gonna affect you

in one way or another,

and this has to teach us a lesson.

[Oprah] Yeah, absolutely.

I'm praying that our entire world gets the lesson.

You said it was the Pope, actually, that took--

made Italians take this really seriously,

when the Pope did his webcast.

You know, this Pope is someone

who's really so close to people.

-You know that, Oprah. -[Oprah] Right.

And he's so close, so physical, so touchy,

and now all of a sudden, you see him on the Sunday

not even from the window but from a remote location,

and in that moment, people started saying,

"Hey, we have a problem here."

-[Oprah] Mm. -Something's happening.

[Oprah] I read where,

I think in that "Washington Post" article,

where you said this moment has caused you to reflect

on what it means to be a reporter

and how the news is delivered.

What have you learned yourself from this experience?

What have you come to realize?

All of a sudden, I realized that in all the stories

and all the pieces, we were reporting like,

"Okay, this is affecting elder people.

This is going to take a toll if you're more than 70."

And my mom and my dad, they're both more than 70,

and we were telling all these people

in an aging society

that they were, in a way, "disposable,"

or not so important because what was told

about the virus is that it was affecting much more them.

And that made me think of it, the way we, you know,

we put the news on the air on a daily basis,

what kind of words we use,

what kind of reality we talk,

and again, maybe we have to think more

of people on the other side of the camera.

[Oprah] I think--

I think you're so right,

that one of the reasons why people

didn't take it seriously sooner

is because of something in our country

people were calling boomer remover.

You know, those who were of the, you know,

boomer generation being removed from this moment

and sort of, okay, it's all right

if you all pass on because you're old

and that's okay.

And I think that message has also filtered

through the United States, and it's why kids

are still on the beach, you know, having spring break.

[Monica] Yeah, it took time even here in Italy

to persuade people

that it was very serious, even for millennials,

and so they should respect the laws and the new rules.

How are your parents?

Because you made the choice to be there with your parents

rather than being in Rome with your husband.

How are your parents faring?

You know, they try to cope, and this is--

and these very days is taking a toll on my mom

because, you know, she knows that her brother passed away

and she couldn't be there and that's tough.

But they're trying to cope with that,

I'm here, I'm trying to give strength and energy,

and, I mean, we're gonna make it,

us and all of you.

Advice for us? For the rest of the world?

Don't wait. Don't wait a second.

Don't lose time.

Don't talk. Just do what is needed.

I mean, it's-- it has a lot to do with time,

all of this toward,

because what the scientists are telling us

is that they need time

to develop medicines and vaccines,

so let's do together what is needed

to have this time and to let them work.

[Oprah] Well, for you, your family, and all of Italy,

we say blessings to you.

We'll all get through this together.

Thank you so much for talking to me, Monica.

Thank you.

Thank you, Oprah. Thank you.

Hello, Dr. Marco Vergano.

-Hello. -[Oprah] Hi.

I know you're in Turin, Italy?

And that right now, you're at home,

because you just-- I just heard that you got

a couple of hours' sleep.

Is that true, a couple of hours' sleep?

-Yeah, a couple. -A couple hours' sleep.

Little less than a couple hours.

A little less than a couple of hours.

And that normally,

you are at the San Giovanni Bosco Hospital?

-Yeah. -[Oprah] Yeah.

So I want to explain to everyone watching

that you are also the chair

of a medical ethics group in Italy,

which is coming into sharp focus

during this crisis,

and having just had a couple of hours' sleep,

I understand you've only been-- you've been getting

a couple hours' sleep for the past couple of weeks,

which you know isn't good for you, Doctor.

No, it... [laughs]

I know.

It's not a couple of hours every day.

I mean, my average sleep time in the last three weeks

have been four times per day-- four hours per day.

-[Oprah] Four hours per day. -Yeah, four to five, yeah.

-[Oprah] So with only-- -And sometimes three to four.

[Oprah] Sometimes with only three and four,

and that's because the overwhelming responsibility

of all of the people who are coming to you

in need of medical care, so what is happening, how--

describe what's happening at your hospital

and other hospitals right now.

So what is happening now

is exactly an overwhelming flow of patients,

and they're increasing day after day,

so in Turin, now we are probably

a couple of weeks behind Lombardy.

They started experiencing this overwhelming flow

at the beginning of March,

and what I mean is that if the speed is increasing

like in Lombardy,

it means that we will double our patients

every three or four days.

So, because this is what happened in Lombardy

for more than two weeks.

So they had 100 patients in the ICU,

and then 200, and then 400, 800 patients,

and this has been happening for 15 days continuously.

So the hospitals are overwhelmed.

Yeah, the hospitals are overwhelmed,

especially in some provinces and hospitals around Milan,

like Brescia, Bergamo, and Pavia, Lodi.

And so what we are all hoping is that this equation

will not become a nationwide equation,

and that the lockdown measures will be able to avoid

this intensity of this epidemic peak to other regions in Italy.

Well, if the numbers are doubling every day,

you eventually are gonna run out of room.

So how are you holding up, physically, emotionally,

spiritually,

with this kind of overwhelming situation?

I know nobody has seen anything like it in our lifetime.

How are you holding up and your staff?

Yeah, I think we are working well

with my staff, and we are tired,

especially those of us who are directly involved

in also organizational issues

and not only on direct patient care.

For example, my last two shifts tonight and Saturday night,

I was directly involved in COVID patients care

in the ICU and then meeting new patients

and trying to find place in ICU beds

also outside of my hospital,

and these shifts are quite exhausting

because the ratio, the doctor-patient ratio

and the nurse-patient ratio is different

from before the epidemic,

and those patients are really intensive patients.

-They have severe pneumonia. -[Oprah] So what--

And they require a lot of skilled professionals

in order to be treated in a proper manner.

[Oprah] What is the ratio now compared to what it was?

Yeah, it depends, but probably for doctors,

it used to be between one doctor

for three ICU patients or four, in my ICU,

which is quite a good average

compared to the national ICU average,

and now it is one to five or one to six.

-[Oprah] Mm. -The ratio now, so--

[Oprah] And you see that going up?

You see that even increasing?

Yeah, and this is increasing because, I don't know,

probably we will be forced to open other ICU beds

for COVID patients before the end of this week.

[Oprah] Several of your staff members have tested positive,

I understand, for COVID-19.

How are they,

and are you worried about your own health?

Yeah, my staff in particular, just a few,

because I think we are behaving in a good way.

A couple of nurses and one doctor tested positive,

and they were immediately isolated,

and they tested all of us.

I've been tested twice,

and twice my result was negative, so--

and the fact that it was negative

after maybe ten days between one test and the other

working every day on COVID patients

is really encouraging because it means

that we are working well.

But there are many hospitals in Italy

where a lot of health care workers tested positive.

They were isolated,

and so this is an additional burden to patients

because hospitals become more and more understaffed

with health care workers isolated.

And a few colleagues were admitted to our ICU

and to other high-dependency units

in my hospital in the last days, yeah.

They are doing well now, but of course,

when you treat your colleagues, you always think

that you could be in that bed and just exchange the roles.

What do you want-- what can you say

to the rest of the world about this virus?

I think-- I would say,

do not underestimate the severity

of this pandemic, and--

because this happened everywhere,

and if I think about my life the last month,

when it was-- it was normal,

and I was, for example, skiing in the mountains

around Torino when my colleagues in Lombardy

were already admitting the first ICU patients.

And when you admit severe patients,

it means you've had a lot of virus circulating

in the society,

and so, probably,

if you wait too long,

this will have a devastating effect.

You have to be proactive, and you have to act very--

in a timely manner

at the beginning of the epidemic surge,

because otherwise you will be just overwhelmed

by the events and it will be catastrophic,

really, for many countries.

I heard you believe that this experience

has strengthened your character

in ways that you never expected.

How so?

Yeah, I think this will shape my character in some way

because also we faced a lot of harsh criticism

because of the recommendation we issued 15 days ago,

and I am one of the leading authors of this document,

and many colleagues outside of the red zones

criticized the fact that we were depicting

a scenario like a war-- war medicine scenario

that was not real.

Then in the last week, they--

almost all of these critics understood

that the crisis and emergency is very real,

and also a lot of people defending

first-come, first-serve criterion

are starting now to understand that if you have

10 ventilators for 30 people,

you have to be very, very clear in your indications

because if you admit ten hopeless patients,

then you will have these patients dying

maybe after one or two weeks

and many more dying outside of the RCU,

so they have-- they're starting to understand

that you are responsible not only for your patients

but also for everyone in your community

and outside of the RCU in your hospital.

Have you had that situation?

Have you been faced with that dilemma personally?

You have 10 ventilators for 30 patients?

[Marco] We are working on a network,

and we-- we have really huge force

in order to increase the availability

of ICU beds and ICU staff,

and also we are transferring continuously patients.

For example, in the last two days,

I transferred three patients to other hospitals,

and also I admitted patients from other hospitals,

because-- so you can treat everyone,

so that's the aim.

What we need to understand is that if you reach

the most severe condition of this COVID-19,

for frail, elderly people with comorbidities

and, for example, hypertension, obesity, diabetes,

chromic pulmonary disease,

COVID-19 will be deadly,

so if you are not very stringent

in your indications,

you will be able to keep those patients alive

for maybe five days or ten days or a couple of weeks,

and then you will have to realize

that they are dying patients,

but if you have this obstinacy in keeping them alive,

you will really prevent many more people

from receiving a life-saving treatment,

so this is what happened in some hospitals.

Well, I can't speak for the world,

but I think I do speak for so many people in the world

when we say that you and your colleagues

all over the world are heroes.

We can't thank you enough for your dedication

and your commitment and caring enough

to put your own lives at risk.

So thank you very much on behalf of everyone.

Thank you so much.

We need support,

and we appreciate it a lot, so thank you.

[Oprah] Okay, how-- how can we,

the people of the world, who are just already isolated

in our own homes,

be of support to people like yourselves?

Yeah, this is just the-- the most important thing

is just staying isolated at home.

-[Oprah] Yeah. -So...

[Oprah] We can help you by staying at home.

We can help you, yeah.

This is a real--

the only medicine now for coronavirus is prevention.

And if you don't flatten the curve

of the epidemic peak,

too many people will get sick at the same time

and the same month, and national health services

will collapse under this pressure.

So the best message is the same,

always the same around the world, and it is,

please stay at home, stay isolated,

and follow the health care authorities'

instructions in your country.

[Oprah] Yeah.

Thank you so much, Dr. Marco Vergano.

I think what you said is so important.

Stay at home so that we don't reach a point

where there are 10 ventilators for 30 patients.

Yeah. Yeah.

-Thank you. -Thank you so much.

Been a pleasure. Thanks.

Pleasure. Pleasure.

Thank you.