Original subtitles

[Alison VO] [inhales]

[exhales]

[inhales and exhales]

[softly] It's actually really quiet right now.

It's so nice.

I love quiet.

♪curious ambient music♪

[Orna VO] How are you two?

Last week was pretty intense.

[Orna] Okay.

Yeah, it was.

How do you feel about last week?

-It was intense. -Wait-- wait, you're...

passing on the ball.

-Yeah, of course. -Yes, I am.

Okay.

Say more.

As Alison's, you know, said a few times,

I'm not...

prone to speaking too much,

so when-- when I do...

talk or let, you know, feelings kind of,

you know, surface,

it can be, you know, raw and difficult,

because it's something I, you know, tend to

suppress more so.

Mm-hm.

This morning, we were talking about,

you know, plans for the weekend,

and that just triggered upset, and I felt quite vulnerable.

[Orna] Okay.

More specifically, what did you feel vulnerable talking about?

[Rod] Alison did get a part-time job.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Mm-hm.

And she's been working weekends,

and traditionally speaking, for most our marriage,

-weekends we've had together. -Mm-hm.

[Rod] So the last few weeks, I've had some down time.

So this Sunday, I was completely off;

I just felt really down and blue.

Mm.

And I just kind of dug a kind of mental hole for myself.

What-- what kind of thoughts make you blue?

Pretty much business related,

thinking about, you know, career and

where I should be and where I am...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I walked downtown, I went to a coffee shop,

notepad, telephone, trying to just kind of

be constructive with my kind of-- my thoughts.

Mm-hm.

But instead of a kind of a enjoyable Sunday where I

could've, you know,

done something maybe to feed myself emotionally,

instead, I kind of mentally beat myself up.

[Orna] Mm.

I asked him in the afternoon how he was feeling 'cause I

know-- I knew he was completely off.

I mean, I just knew he was, like,

into himself, into his brain, into everything.

He's like, "I'm fine!"

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Alison] But I didn't press it...

-Mm-hm. -Like I usually do, right?

Mm-hm.

[Alison] We didn't go at each other.

We left it alone.

Mm-hm.

♪soft curious music♪

Rod and Alison came in both in a state of confusion and

almost panic about their relationship.

Yeah.

[Orna] With a lot of bickering...

[Virginia] Yup.

A lot of comedy, and a lot of sound.

That frustrates more than anything!

[Orna VO] A lot of noise.

It was like a lot of talking, chatter,

chatter between them, back and forth,

back and forth, interruptions,

kind of a...

cacophony of sound.

[Virginia VO] Yes.

I can't hear you, and I'm sure you can't hear each other.

But she's getting there; she's doing serious work now.

Like, the way she is in sessions,

it's really unrecognizable.

Wow.

Namaste.

Namaste.

-[laughs] -[Rod chuckles]

[sighs]

I wanna learn...

[Orna VO] I mean, she still goes back to the anger,

but she catches herself.

[Virginia VO] That's great!

Great.

But Rod, he, on the other hand,

I haven't made enough of a...

dent with.

He knows when he's unclear about what's going on inside of him --

like, emotionally -- that he recruits her.

[Virginia VO] Mm-hm.

[Orna VO] Or he does something where she can do all the

emotional work,

and his instruction is to try to then go inward,

rather than invite her to act out.

[Virginia VO] I see.

So he knows where he ought to go but he doesn't yet know how to

find himself.

-[Orna] Yeah. -Okay.

[Orna] So I should open that door some more.

Yeah.

The question is: what do you wish for,

-want from Alison? -Mm-hm.

[Orna] What do you need from Alison?

Kindness.

Respect.

-Respect; how do you mean? -She does--

I mean, she's always been incredibly supportive.

I mean, my career and throughout-- since we met,

always.

I mean, I wouldn't be where I am without her,

so I praise her immensely.

Can you say that again, please?

[chuckles]

No, you've given me--

But those are the-- but are the things that are so important:

-the recognition-- -No, absolutely.

-You've given me-- -Recognizing you?

[Rod] Yeah.

Right, but what's happening right now is you're

-interfering... -[Alison] Yes.

With Rod's ability to try to figure out what he wants.

Yup, yup, you're absolutely right,

so I'm just gonna sit here and behave.

[Orna] You--

-[Alison] No, I want to! -Don't--

-[Alison] I want him to-- -Don't just sit here.

Don't just sit here.

Listen.

Listen, and see how you can...

um...

invite more...

-[Alison] Mm-hm. -From Rod.

-Don't just do nothing. -Okay.

-[Orna] Try to do that! -Mm-hm.

Alison's personality is, you know, bold!

And, you know, we kinda-- and, you know, she's...

I guess we have this balance; I'm more refined and she's

louder, and it's-- you know, there's an attraction...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

But sometimes, it overtakes me.

So I guess I've chosen to put myself kind of, uh...

on the backseat...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

You know, within the relationship and,

yeah, so that's it.

But are you saying, "Alison, I want you to continue...

to take a front seat...

and be loud and dominant in our relationship;

I want that?"

No, I guess what I'm saying is I want, uh,

evenness -- you know, 50/50.

How do you want Alison to...

-[Rod] To let me-- -Contribute in that?

To have a moment of patience and let me open my mouth and,

you know, construct my thoughts and feelings,

without interrupting.

[Orna] Okay, good.

So what did you hear...

Rod say?

[inhales and exhales]

That I need to give him time...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

To talk.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I will give you time.

Mm-hm.

Do you wanna say more?

Thank you! [chuckles]

No, I feel like this process has given Alison awareness.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And me as well, of course; I'll own it as well.

-[Alison] But-- but-- -What?

But it's given me aware--

I guess-- I guess I just wish...

[Rod] Yeah?

That it wasn't "I know it's giving Alison--"

How do you know that it's giving me enlightenment?!

I said "awareness."

But I'm just saying, how do you know that reaction,

that I'm getting awareness?

Well, I don't.

-It's an assumption. -[Alison] No, just--

I don't.

I understand that, but that's what we do: we assume!

We don't listen.

You assume I'm having enlightenment...

M'kay.

[Alison] And what are you having?

What just happened here?

I don't-- Alison got really upset and I couldn't figure out

what triggered it; I don't know.

Uh-huh.

I don't know, I saw red lights.

-I don't know. -[chuckles]

-[Orna] What-- what-- -I just saw red.

It's-- it's a trigger!

-[Orna] What is a trigger? -I just--

the trigger is him going,

"Alison, she..."

You know, like, it's-- I feel like he always--

Talking about you.

[Alison] Always about me.

Okay.

It's about me, it's about me, it's about me,

-and I want it to be about... -[Orna] So--

-Him! -[Orna] Okay.

-[Alison] Also! -[Orna] So, right,

so that's what we're trying to work on, right?

So if you want it to be about him...

-[Alison] I need to listen! -Be a better listener.

[Alison] Yes.

-And... -[Alison exhales deeply]

Don't pass the ball!

[Rod] Okay.

And I need to own my-- own my space.

[Orna] Own your space!

Mm-hm.

That was brilliant.

I never heard you ever say that.

Just made it up.

[Alison] Well, it was really good!

-[chuckles] -[Orna] Mm-hm.

It was!

I actually like him right now.

Mm-hm.

[Alison] Is that what happens?

Yeah.

I like you better today than I've liked you in the last,

like, three or four weeks.

-Like, this minute. -Why?

'Cause I'm owning my space? Okay.

[Alison] Because you actually talked!

Mm-hm.

♪quirky mellow music♪

[muffled speech] We never really talk much about it,

but how does...

race...

-affect us... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

As a couple together -- me being a white man,

you being a BIPOC person?

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And looking back,

with the interaction that we had with that guy at The Eagle,

that already is in my mind; it's already, like...

stamped in my mind,

"Okay, if that white person comes to us and wants to

interact with us,

how do I make sure that...

you're okay, I'm okay, we're okay."

And...

this is a dialogue that you and I have not had.

Never.

No!

[Mondo] I didn't know if I had a place at the table...

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -To even say,

"Hey, I feel weird," right?

Like, why do I feel weird?

-Well... -[Mondo] And--

"Weird" is...

[Mondo] "Weird" is a dis--

-It's not "weird," it's... -Sure, we can call it

-"discrimination"... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

-We can call it "exclusion"... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

We can call it "segregation," whatever it is...

"Othered."

Yes, very othered, right?

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Mondo] Maybe there is a bit of avoidance;

-we're avoiding... -Mm-hm.

The subject in some way because of what-- what is inside.

Mm-hm.

I'm brown and you're white,

we have two different cultures,

we have two different thought processes,

-but... -Mm-hm.

We...

have never created any sort of...

conversation that...

forces us to think about it inside the home.

Mm-hm.

♪soft curious music♪

Kyle and Mondo came in with whether to open the

relationship.

[Virginia VO] Right.

[Orna VO] But it turns out that the arena of, like,

introducing a third person into their relationship...

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] Is, like, the arena in which they understand a lot

of things that they can't understand just the two of them.

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

It's not that they were opening the relationship in order to

understand something that they didn't even know was relevant to

understand, they thought they were just doing X.

But it turns out a lot more comes-- comes through that door.

[Orna] Right.

And I'm wondering if that's part of why people do this --

why people open the relationship.

[Virginia] Yeah, 'cause--

That only through the introduction of someone else,

you break a certain...

symbiotic lockdown.

Yes.

[Orna VO] I think it feels tricky to them to talk about

certain things at home, and they need this kind of third space.

[Virginia VO] Right.

[Orna VO] So where are you with the open relationship?

[Mondo] I'm like, "You know what?

Fuck it.

-You go have sex." -[laughs]

"I'm gonna go have sex.

We'll figure it out."

-Well-- -[Mondo] It's very strange.

Before, I didn't feel like it was something we had earned

-as a couple. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Mondo] But since we came into this space with you...

Mm-hm.

We were analyzing ourselves, our relationship...

Mm-hm.

[Mondo] I now know what it feels like.

-In terms of what? -In terms of...

the openness and feeling, uh, comfortable with it happening.

Well, describe what it feels like.

What's the...

interior of that feeling?

Freedom?

-I guess? -Mm-hm.

There's a-- there's some freedom there,

there's...

-uh, there is a lot of trust... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Saying, "I trust you that you won't do something dumb,

and you're just gonna take care of whatever you gotta do."

Mm-hm.

And for me,

as long as you're able to get your ass home,

-I'm okay. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

If you're not home, I'm gonna go nuts.

Mm-hm.

And that happened last week,

where he just left the home, and I just thought,

"Where are you at?"

Where'd you go?

[Mondo] I went out and had a drink with my friend.

Mm-hm.

Confirmed it, showed texts, showed pictures.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

-Timestamps... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, "Look, I was here at this time."

-[laughing] You know? Like... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Mondo] It was actually kinda cute,

the way he came up to me and was like,

"Did you-- did you hook up with someone?"

And I'm like, "No!"

-[Kyle] It was the-- actually... -[Mondo] It's funny.

I think actually the very first time where I sat down and said,

-"Babe, I need to talk to you." -He looked genuinely concerned!

He was so concerned!

"Um, I'm not feeling good about this.

I'm gonna go down and talk to him,

because I'm-- if I don't talk to him,

I'm gonna get anxiety."

[Mondo] Yeah.

But what was your anxiety?

"You were gone for an hour, so what was going on?

What's up?

Were you with somebody?

You can tell me.

I just want you...

to tell me something so I can get reassured that you were...

not doing something super crazy out-- outside of our home."

And he confirmed "Nah," he clarified,

and...

What's the "super crazy" fear?

I know!

It's so interesting!

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -What?

What?

This "super crazy" fear!

Like, what is this...

doing something stupid?

Like...

I think the table has turned around a little bit.

[laughs]

The table has turned.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Now I'm the one that "was the adult."

Mm-hm.

And I realize that I was scared that,

once you find that person attractive,

you will leave me.

-[groans affectionately] -[Orna] Mm-hm.

No, Bubba.

No.

-Yeah. -No!

It's just me growing up with that mentality that...

eventually, someone will leave me.

Mm-hm.

[Kyle] My dad, my stepdad...

And I don't know if I told you, but...

the time that I fucked up in the past in our relationship,

it was because it's like, "You know what?

I am so...

unworthy of this that I will just go ahead and fuck it up,

because eventually, you will leave me."

Mm-hm.

What-- what were you doing to sabotage?

Self-medicate,

smoke,

-drink. -Mm-hm.

[Kyle] And I had a few hookups behind his back.

-Mm-hm. -[Kyle] Yeah.

Yeah.

But you've come a long way.

Pffoof!

-Mm-hm. -[Kyle] I have!

[Orna] What is the "long way?"

I've said it before and I will say it again:

I am always a late bloomer.

I will eventually catch up.

Mm-hm.

It's like, "Oh, okay, so this is what it's supposed

to be like."

What are you thinking?

[Mondo] It's just so interesting to me.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -I'm listening to myself!

-Right? -[Orna] Mm-hm.

We've been in this room for almost three months.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I was on the other side of this couch.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -[Mondo] It's very nice.

What's it like?

[Mondo] It's really awesome.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Huh?

It's really awesome.

What?

-To be on the other side. -Yeah!

Because it's taken the burden of being the parent for Kyle.

I feel like now, I've, like, "Okay,

I don't have to do that anymore."

-Mm-hm. -[Mondo] Right?

And now, I feel like I'm having a relationship with a m-- with--

with Kyle, right?

Like, now, it's like, "Okay, this is a relationship.

You're-- you're helping me out here."

It doesn't feel like as if I'm the one carrying the

relationship like this.

-Mm-hm. -[Kyle] Yeah, yeah.

[Mondo] So...

-thank you. -[Kyle] Yeah.

Welcome.

Welcome to Team Kylondo.

Welcome.

♪mellow pensive music♪

♪Can you see the light?♪

♪Step into the night♪

♪Can you find whole♪

♪Darkness that you throw?♪

♪You throw, you throw♪

♪Can you see the light?♪

♪Black inside the night♪

♪Deep inside the hole♪

♪Do you know what's right?♪

♪What's right, what's right♪

♪Open up my door♪

♪Open up my door♪

♪Open up my door♪

♪Open up my door♪

[Katherine] I feel like all this energy has been focused on

-Nick's pain. -Mm-hm.

In my head, I would be like, "I feel bad for you,

and also, like,

stop doing the thing that's getting you all the attention."

Yeah.

And...

sometimes, I just wanna be like, "What about my pain?!"

[Orna] Mm-hm!

♪uptempo percussion♪

[Orna VO] Nick most recently went through disclosing the big

event that happened to him in college.

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] And that's been taking most of our time

in the sessions.

[Virginia VO] Right.

It's impossible not to be completely drawn in emotionally.

-Yes, but you have to intervene. -[Orna] Yeah.

You have to stop that gravitational pull to him...

Right.

[Virginia] And say, "I wanna hear her part of the story."

Yeah.

One of the things I have to do is to determine how much is it

-really Nick's issue... -[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] That needs to be dealt with,

and how much of that can be resolved systemically by

actually paying much more attention to the other person...

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] Who's waiting in the wings?

[Virginia VO] Right.

[Katherine VO] I've been feeling really tired lately,

and I've been feeling very far away from

the ayahuasca experience.

[Orna VO] Mm-hm.

I've struggled a lot with food and, like,

my relationship with food --

like, disordered eating, just a really unhealthy relationship

with it, punishing myself, overexercising,

restricting, then overeating, like...

-Mm-hm. -[Katherine inhales deeply]

[sighing] I don't know.

Like, spending money.

Yup.

Wh-- tell me more what you mean by that.

Well...

go for it!

Okay, all right.

Um...

Katherine went out with Luna on...

I forget what day it was.

-Friday. -Friday.

And they were gone for most of the day,

and I think they did a lot of fun stuff,

and then Katherine called me on her way home and-- and said,

"I've-- I've...

spent a lot of money," and uh--

Well, I was trying to warn you before you, like--

She was trying to warn me. [laughs]

[chuckling] Looked at our account.

[Nick] Right.

Yeah, it was, like, close to a thousand dollars...

-Mm-hm. -[Nick] Just for the day,

which actually represented, like...

On?

A pretty good chunk of money that,

like, we needed.

[Katherine] What'd I spend it on?

-Mm-hm. -Um...

took her out to eat twice, we went to the nail salon...

Mm-hm.

[Katherine] And I spent $280 at Sephora.

That's how Sephora is; it's like a vortex and it sucks you in.

Mm-hm.

I think that the thing here is that, like,

this happens often; this is not the first time.

Like, she will leave the house with Luna,

and they will go to Target, and there'll be, like,

a 470-dollar bill,

whereas if I leave the house--

Target is also like a vortex!

No, but, like, whereas if I leave the house with Luna,

Luna gets one toy for, like, 50 dollars,

and I'm mulling over, like, a 20-dollar shirt.

Mm-hm.

But, like, I think this is less about

me and my power and my control,

and more about, like,

some stuff that you've been working through since you were

younger --

dynamics with other people that are outside of money.

That have to do with...

money, class...?

Yeah, I mean, like, it's the same thing; like, I--

Class, but also, I think, being bullied,

-people being mean... -Yeah.

Feeling not attractive,

feeling not cool,

all of those things --

which she is.

-But, like, some "not enough"-- -[Nick] But those old feelings.

-"Not enough." -[Nick] Those old--

Yes, not being enough.

Like, I remember being ashamed of my neighborhood,

and, like, my house, and, like, people coming over,

and, um, when I was 12, 13,

I was, like, really overweight,

and I even look back at photos of myself then,

I-- I try to find, like, love for this person, and I'm like,

"Wow, Katherine.

Like, you were a disaster."

-And it still lives in me. -Mm-hm.

And it's so crazy 'cause I'm like, "I'm 40.

Like, that person is not me anymore."

We-- so-- so let's think about these arguments about money...

Mm-hm.

And what might be happening between the two of you...

with all of this in mind.

[Nick] Um...

Do you have thoughts?

I don't know.

There's a lot to unpack with me too.

-[Orna] Right. -So there's th--

-I play a role here, like-- -[Orna] But let's--

-let's bring in-- -With my own financial stuff

because I...

had a gambling addiction,

I've gone through not having money,

I know what it's like to want...

Mm-hm.

And then I know what it's like to literally, like,

go through cognitive behavioral therapy and become

very controlled around it.

Mm-hm.

But I also recognize that, like...

if it is an addiction or something that runs deeper,

-you can't... -Mm-hm.

[Nick] Tell your partner, like...

"Don't do that."

"Don't be addicted to something."

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -"Don't..."

I mean, she's fighting a deeper...

feeling.

And for me, it comes from that place of compassion,

which is like, "I want her to have a healthy relationship to

food, I want her to have a healthy relationship to herself,

I want her to love herself."

It goes back to the original thing,

which is actually, like...

-But the difference is-- -I do see you,

and I actually want you to not shop...

-On the ayahuasca retreat-- -I want you to love who you are.

You would've just hugged me...

[voice wavering] and been like, "I love you."

That's what hurts me is, like--

and that's what I feel like we're losing.

It's like...

-I just want, like... -[clears throat]

Like, warmth!

And, like, someone who's, like--

who I know, like, loves me, and is, like, there for me,

and I haven't been feeling like that from you recently.

Like...

you're, like, cold sometimes,

and removed,

and, like, aloof.

Mm.

I don't feel like I have, like, someone who just loves me.

Mm-hm.

[Katherine] You know?

Like, I don't get that, from anyone.

Except my daughter.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I've been letting her, like,

sleep with me at night, because she, like,

cuddles me and, like...

Just holding.

[Katherine] Yeah, and just-- and I like that!

Like, I need that!

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I think if we had to talk about, like,

the underlying theme that we're getting closer to is this...

this sinkhole of deprivation,

of not having enough.

Right.

And, like, me trying to fill that with, like,

things.

Mm-hm.

Whether it's food, whether it's stuff,

whether it's, like...

-attention and... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And you're saying to Nick, "Maybe a hug or warmth

would be enough."

[Katherine] Just warmth!

Mm-hm.

Being like, you know, "It's okay!"

Like...

Like, just hearing that -- like, "You're enough."

Mm-hm.

You're enough.

[Katherine] Yeah.

♪tender music♪

[softly] Thanks.

♪♪♪

-Thank you. -[Nick] Thank you.

-[Orna] Bye.

♪I've spent enough days alone♪

♪Memorized all the numbers on my phone♪

♪Mornings bleed into the night♪

♪I'm not feeling all right♪

♪Stuck in the unknown♪

♪I try to break up the cycle...♪

[Luna giggles]

♪I swear I'm not in denial...♪

[Mondo sighs]

♪If I go outside, act like someone else♪

♪Maybe I'll stop hating myself♪

♪I'm trying♪

♪When everything feels the same♪

♪I've found the ways to numb the pain♪

♪Build new roads in my brain♪

♪But those turn into bad habits♪

♪They tell me that's just how it goes♪

♪But I'm still feeling like a ghost♪

♪Try to find new ways to cope♪

♪But those turn into bad habits♪

♪When everything feels the same♪

♪I find ways to numb the pain♪

♪Build new roads in my brain♪

♪But those turn into bad habits♪

♪They tell me that's just how it goes♪

♪But I'm still feeling like a ghost♪

♪Try to find new ways to cope♪

♪But those turn into bad habits♪