Original subtitles

♪soft pensive music♪

[Orna VO] Most people, when they come into therapy,

have a story that they tell themselves

that helps them make sense of their life.

♪

And the therapist is recruited to be

the witness for that narrative,

but also to ask questions

and pull in threads that seem incompatible,

so that the narrative can change.

♪

And that can be hard for people,

because it's very destabilizing,

and sometimes, it's just too difficult to bear.

♪

All right, so Boris and Jessica.

They left.

-[woman] Oh! -[gasps] They left therapy?

-Mm-hm. -[Ken] Whoa.

[Kali] They explained it?

Each of them explained it in their own ways?

I didn't get an explanation personally yet.

You weren't a home either.

I wasn't a home either.

Because the home is not outside.

Yeah.

[Ken] He was the one who left?

Or was it both of them?

[Orna] I'm sure it's him.

[Ken] Yeah, that's what I think too.

-I'm sure it's him. -[Ken] Yeah, yeah.

I think the question would be: what about it --

for him, specifically --

is intolerable?

[Kali] Yeah.

[Ken] But I don't know if he would be able to say.

-Right. -[Kali] Yeah.

For a while, I was thinking, like,

"Maybe she really isn't offering him enough empathy,"

and I tried, in the session, to see if I can get her to,

like...

address his...

hunger.

Um, but nothing;

-nothing worked. -Mm-hm.

But also, I think she was happy to see that someone's seeing,

-"Look what I'm dealing with!" -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"This is impossible! You see?!

Every time I try, he just says, 'No,

not enough, not good enough.'"

[Kali] Did he identify with you at all?

He briefly identified with me,

only when I was, like, 100 percent empathic.

The moment I established any kind of difference between...

his experience and my interpretation --

any difference --

I was just, like, useless to him.

[Kali] Yeah.

But to leave a therapy that's not working...

sometimes it's the right thing for them to do.

Yes.

♪melancholy piano music♪

When patients just get up and leave,

when treatments abort,

I do a lot of self-examination.

"Should I? Could I have?"

It's not easy.

♪

In hindsight, I would've gone slower.

♪

And maybe not bring up too much?

But it's pressure

when you're, like, wanting a lot for your patients.

♪

Orna, you are present in a lot...

of how I deal with things now.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Before...

I was just on a...

-treadmill! -[Orna] Mm-hm.

By myself...

thinking that I was gonna be saved by my therapist,

or my medication,

or friends, or...

-life. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And now, I'm actually...

doing the work to make us better.

-Internally. -[Alison] Yes.

Mm-hm.

[Rod VO] I'm just curious; where do you think that anger

comes from?

Did something happen in your life to give you the anger?

Yeah, my dad!

Okay.

It was easier to distract...

than deal!

Like, scream, put down, and just-- and just dismiss?

Dismiss, and then, come back with

"Is everything okay?"

Like, a whole-- like, could be an hour or two later.

-It's like Jekyll and Hyde. -[Alison] And...

[Rod] No, I mean--

Okay, but when you say that to me...

[Rod] Yeah?

That starts with me getting angry.

Like, that's--

So rather than get angry--

[Alison] I don't wanna get angry.

-Right. -[Alison] So I'm gonna--

So why don't you explain to Rod in a way that is--

-Okay. -Kind...

-Okay. -What makes you angry about it?

The Jekyll and Hyde comment...

you used to say to me...

when we were first together,

and now that I am working on that

and more aware of it than ever...

Mm-hm.

It's very hurtful to me.

It doesn't feel good when you say that.

M'kay.

[stutters] I-- I really-- I thought that was great that you

could, like, really say it in a way that is very easy then to

take in.

Yeah, I mean, that was big for me.

[Orna] Yeah!

'Cause I could've just blew up and flipped out.

Right, which would do...

-[Alison] Slim and nothing. -Yeah.

Well, I get there, and I think of you while that's happening.

I'm definitely catching myself at times to take a moment.

You seem to interrupt less, which is great,

'cause that used to be a passion of yours,

so I think you really think about thinking before you talk.

And what about you?

This has made me more conscientious as well,

of course, of my actions.

-I mean, like, being more-- -[Orna] Of what?

Involved in the conversation

-and not... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Stepping back in the conversation,

which invites you to then...

go for my jugulars, and then I'll retreat.

-That's great. -[Rod] Mm-hm.

[Alison] I want you to be you;

I need be to be me.

I need to respect you,

instead of trying to fix you.

But I'm not broken.

That's not how I view you.

No, but you said, "I don't wanna fix you,"

so I just said, "What is there to fix?"

It's-- it's an interesting thing to pause on...

[Alison] Okay.

Because...

I think Rod is saying something to you about the message he's

-getting from you... -Mm-hm.

Meaning what image are you sending each other?

[Alison] Correct.

Today was a better day.

Yeah, it was.

We were supportive of each other.

Today was definitely a better day.

Describe.

Like, you giving me a kiss last night before we went to sleep,

-you know? -[Rod] Mm-hm.

What did it-- how did if affect you?

I felt calmer.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

It was that little of a th-- of something

that made me feel calmer!

Mm-hm.

I just know...

that I have to back off.

Mm-hm.

[Alison] And stop being so overbearing.

And I realize

that it makes a huge difference when I am...

-calmer. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Alison] For everyone.

Without a doubt.

And I'm heard, instead of...

barking,

because it was easier to do that than deal!

-It's like my dad. -Mm-hm!

And Rod, I was curious;

who did you, um, talk to more at home as a child?

My mother.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

My dad was always-- always there,

but always very reserved, very quiet.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Not much of a speaker at all,

and that used to make my mum actually pretty infuriated.

-Like, she wanted-- -Him being that way?

Yeah, like, you know, she wanted more conversation.

[Orna] Sure.

-And it just didn't happen... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

So I guess there wasn't a-- that was always a rift between

my parents.

-Yeah. -[Rod] Yeah.

I've got my mum's anxiety and my dad's reservedness.

-[chuckles] -Great.

Or...

the pattern that you're...

familiar with is that pattern.

Yeah.

How did you feel when you would watch them

that way?

Certainly sad.

I remember there was a time-- what triggered it?

Just had a quick memory.

My father was from Los Angeles, my mum's from London.

Mm-hm.

I remember going back to California to visit my

grandparents, probably when I was maybe about our daughter's

age -- like, eight, nine, ten --

and my parents were having some kind of big blow-up

argument, and I just--

-I ran out of the house. -[Orna] Mm.

And I remember distinctly walking down the Hollywood Hills

by myself, and I just had to disengage from the kind of,

you know, toxicity that was going on.

Did you have any wishes?

Like, "I wish Dad would...

blah blah blah," or "I wish Mom would...?"

[Rod] Not really.

But when my parents finally did get divorced,

I was...

probably late teen-- no, late teens or early 20s,

-and I was actually relieved. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

'Cause I felt like the marriage was...

-off-tracks. -[Orna] Yeah.

I remember the action of me running out of the house

and like, "No, don't do it!"

-Like, wanna cover your ears. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And like, "Enough!"

Like, "No more shouting! No more screaming!"

[Orna] Yeah.

I mean, our daughter's done that sometimes.

I just don't want her to witness what we witnessed

with our parents.

♪chill soulful music♪

♪You are more♪

♪Than the kind of love I prayed♪

♪Prayed for♪

♪You're the kind of love that will endure♪

- ♪Yeah, honey...♪ -[both chuckle]

♪You're mine♪

♪Mine♪

♪Mine, mine, mine, mine♪

♪Even still...♪

-Ah! -♪Uh-huh♪

♪You made me, darling, lose my will♪

♪I do things♪

♪I never thought I'd do♪

♪And it's all, all because of you...♪

[both laugh]

♪Oh yeah!♪

♪Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right♪

[Mondo VO] In my life, with my upbringing,

I was raised on conditional love with my parents.

[Orna VO] Mm-hm.

Where, if you want this relationship,

you have to want to do this, this--

[Orna] Accommodate.

You have to accommodate that.

Mm-hm.

Can you just tell me a little bit about that?

So, my family -- strong Christian background;

typical Mexican;

very hard machismo representation;

men are men, women are women.

-Mm-hm. -So...

me being gay was the shaker of the family.

Like, I was the black sheep.

My parents absolutely could not stand it.

It was the first time I've ever been beaten by my parents.

[scoffs]

Like, literally, I was getting hit over the head with

the Bible.

Like, "Pray your sin away.

Pray for God to turn you straight.

Pray."

You know, and my mom is saying, "But nobody will ever love you.

You're gonna die."

Um...

And they did everything they could possibly do to turn

me straight.

Like, I mean, my mom even went so far as to look for

a witch doctor...

-to, like... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Do some spells on me, just to turn me--

And how did that all affect you?

-Internally, how did you-- -[Mondo] It was just like...

[sighs]

[voice wavering] I just wanted my mom to love me,

I wanted my dad to love me, I wanted to--

I wanted everything to go back to normal.

So I said what I had to say just to get...

through.

To get through and to maintain some...

-connection. -[Mondo] Yeah, yeah.

And I finally confronted them in my early 30s and said,

"We're gonna put this to bed now and forever more.

I am very gay, and I need you to understand

how I questioned my worth,

-how I felt conditional love." -Mm-hm.

Like, I was like, "Mom, that was probably the--

the nastiest thing that you could have ever done to me."

You know, when you first started talking about yourself

here, you talked about yourself more as a translator.

[Mondo] Mm-hm.

But now, I'm understanding that you also translated

and kind of distorted yourself constantly,

just to keep a connection with your parents.

Yeah.

[Orna] It must have been...

crazy-making.

It was awful.

So where are all these realities when the two of you...

[chuckles] Cross?

-[chuckles] -Mm-hm.

[Mondo] All I've ever wanted was unconditional love,

-right? -Mm-hm.

Whereas Kyle turns around and gives it to me the way I only

know it,

-which is conditional. -Mm.

[Kyle, in muffled speech] Well, as you were talking about your

experience, I was thinking about when we went to The Eagle.

The Eagle is one of the well-known leather gay bars

in Hell's Kitchen.

I know The Eagle. [chuckles]

Who doesn't know The Eagle?

-[laughter] -[chuckling] Yes.

And there was this guy that...

started to hang out with us,

-and I was trying to-- -Started to hang out with you.

It was you.

[Kyle] In the beginning, he was hanging out with us.

And later on, I...

started to notice how he was

paying more attention towards me.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And yes, we made out, and...

it wasn't coming from a place of

"Oh, he's not here anymore. Great."

No!

You were at the bar over there,

and...

I said, "Okay, you're over there,

you're gonna be back."

There was no, um...

-hiding for me. -Mm-hm.

[Mondo scoffs]

-Okay. -[Kyle] Yes.

And so I felt safe.

-No. -Um...

I completely disagree with everything he's saying,

by the way.

I just c-- I have to say that, I'm sorry.

That's not how it played out for you?

[Mondo] Not for me!

-No way! -[Orna] Interesting.

It was not...that...at...all.

And, like, you know, this is gonna get really dense,

but I'm sorry that I have to say this...

Mm-hm.

But there was also a racial element that I was also kind of

looking at,

because it was...

a perfect example where, finally,

I could bring it up to Kyle and say,

"By the way, have you ever noticed that we're in a biracial

relationship?"

And then, I said, "Have you ever noticed how you've been

primarily focused on, as a white man,

to another white man?"

And...

he doesn't notice it because he's in the...

-Yeah. -Moment of being validated

by another man.

Well, he doesn't notice it also because of whiteness.

[Mondo] Could be whiteness.

-[Orna] That's... -Could be whiteness as well.

Part of being white -- you don't notice.

So then, I have been in situations where...

I've watched my partner being flirted with,

and I completely disappear because of the fact

-that I'm brown. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And in this experience, while he was flirting with this white

man, I was-- I was addressed like this.

[scoffs]

-Mm-hm. -By him?

[Mondo] Yes!

-Like this. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Mondo] It's very subtle, but it's very obvious.

Yeah.

And as a brown person living in a white-predominantly world...

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -I know what it feels like!

And it's taken me a long time to actually vocalize this,

-right? -Mm-hm.

So, when I see myself being rejected by my partner because

he's getting attention from another person,

and now I'm not even addressed or acknowledged?

[Orna] Mm-hm.

That was it.

-"Bye!" -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Literally, I felt this --

-"Bye!" -[Orna] Yeah.

"Go away."

And it's like...

I felt like that young kid.

It just sucked.

But do you...

retreat?

I-- I do step back.

I do.

Interesting.

[Mondo] Yeah.

I have.

Because there's the component-- there's many components.

It's the "All right, well, I want Kyle to enjoy it.

I want him to have a...

a moment."

Is that the right opportunity to...

mention "Hey, uh, no?"

Like-- [chuckles]

I don't know!

-[Mondo] No! -Maybe there's enough--

-Oh my God, no! -[Orna] I-- I don't know!

-I don't know! -No, I'm saying no, it's not!

I don't think it is!

I don't even think--

I think this might be interesting for the two of you

to talk about.

What would be an alternative to retreating?

[Mondo] Mm-hm.

Yeah, we-- we haven't really explored all of that.

That have to do with "Well, how do you-- how do we keep

each other included?"

-[Mondo] Right. -[Kyle] Mm-hm.

Yeah.

-To be continued. -[Kyle] To be continued.

[Mondo] Yeah.

-[Kyle] Okay. -[Mondo grunts]

♪chill groovy music♪

[Nick VO] I mean, I think that I'm having a tough time,

um, being here.

[Orna VO] Mm-hm.

Is it mostly about sharing what happened in college?

Maybe.

I think it's kind of everything.

Mm-hm.

You know, I had been sort of holding onto that...

-secret... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Or just the stuff that was really bothering me,

and I think that, um...

I don't know.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I mean, there's probably something...

very important about...

in a way, dragging it on like that and holding onto the secret

-- maybe, in certain ways, as important as the secret itself.

Mm.

Sort of the thing that gets accrued around it.

-[Katherine] Mm. -[Nick] Mm.

It's interesting; I-- I, uh...

during ayahuasca, I had, like, these, like,

electric shock almost, like,

shakes with negative thoughts that I was having...

-Mm-hm. -[Nick] About it.

I actually do that now, totally subconsciously.

Like, if I'm, like...

lying in bed and I'm thinking about, like...

something that really bothers me, like...

I actually, like, physically...

shake.

Meaning it goes-- instead of going into thought,

it goes into the body.

-Right. -You know...

I mean, this just occurred to me;

his mom died from Parkinson's...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Which is, like, I feel like it's so related.

Like...

-[sighs] -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Even the shaking.

Like, the...

I don't know.

Mm-hm.

But I sort of always thought that.

Like, I've always just felt her so much in him,

and, like...

there's something...

deeply, like, similar about them.

Mm-hm.

[Nick inhales deeply]

[exhales]

How did it feel to hear Katherine say that?

[exhales forcefully]

Um, it's-- I don't know.

It's right, it's correct, and it's, like...

it's-- it's upsetting.

[chuckles]

I don't know, there's a lot of things that I don't like about

my mom.

There's a lot of things that I'm angry at her about,

and I think a lot of it is related to, like...

self-hate,

ugliness,

inability to, like, accept herself

and, consequently, accept other people.

Mm-hm.

Like, he would tell me that he had no privacy.

Like, his mom would go through his stuff,

his room, his...

-Oh. -[Katherine] Closet, his bag,

she would read his journal,

-she would find, like... -Wow!

[Katherine] Love notes.

Yeah.

[Orna] And that is not a neutral thing.

I mean, there's...

possessiveness and...

[Katherine] Looking for something.

Looking for something.

[Nick] Mm-hm.

I mean, I also think that's why the college incident

-felt so violating... -[Orna] Mm.

'Cause, like...

it was, like, again, an attack on his privacy.

[Orna] Yeah.

And I've noticed that, like, even...

early on in our relationship, like,

if I ever went in his computer or I looked at his ph--

like, it was-- he-- he would...

-get very upset. -Mm-hm.

[Katherine] Like, "Don't touch my stuff."

Yeah.

And it was so much so that in the beginning,

I was like,

-"What is he hiding?" -[Orna] Mm-hm.

It made me want to go through his phone,

-'cause I was kinda like... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

"Why are you so protective of your stuff if there's nothing

to hide?"

You know, I was also thinking about that.

Like, what was it about for you --

-the waiting and holding it in? -[inhales and exhales deeply]

And it made me think of the way the two of you described

the ayahuasca journey.

Mm-hm.

That they were really having to, like,

keep coming back to you and, like,

pull things out of you.

[Nick] Mm.

I mean, that experience, for me, was-- was...

very much...

I felt like I was not resisting,

I felt like I was like, "I'm here,

take it from me.

Like, please."

And she couldn't.

Mm-hm.

I don't know.

What is the "it?"

I mean, in that experience, it was something very physical.

It was, like, ugly feelings, anger...

shame, grief...

But it was very physically manifested,

so to me, the "it" was an object;

it was a thing.

But maybe those intense experiences --

like grief and anger --

somehow, with the way you organize it inside you,

-they become an "it." -Mm-hm.

They're not an immediately-experienced

part of you.

It's an "it,"

and somebody else has to, like, deal with it,

and then it becomes kind of a tug-of-war...

Mm-hm.

Between you and the "it,"

or between the outside and the "it,"

or between you two.

Mm-hm.

And what I've seen you try to do here is to try to own it,

and speak it,

but with a lot of ambivalence.

Mm-hm.

[Orna] Wanna tell, don't wanna tell.

Wanna feel, don't wanna feel.

[Nick clears his throat]

I don't know-- I don't know why this con-- conversation's

making me un-- me uncomfortable.

I don't know why, I don't know what's going on.

Describe it.

I don't know, I feel like I'm getting, like,

an anxiety attack or something.

I feel like I'm getting hot and uncomfortable.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

You're on the hot seat.

[chuckles] That's probably what's going on.

[Orna, playfully teasing] Ha ha!

Yeah.

Is the discomfort because...

I'm missing something, or...

because I'm touching something, or...?

No, I think you're touching something,

and I think it's just...

[inhales deeply]

getting into it and generally not wanting to get into it.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -[exhales]

-[Orna] Yeah. -And avoiding that.

[Orna] You do and you don't; you do and you don't.

-Right. -It's really a struggle for you.

[Nick] Right.

I feel like I need a m-- I need a minute.

-Can I take a minute? -Mm-hm.

Just-- can I walk outside for one second?

-[Orna] Sure. -Thank you.

[clears throat]

[door slides open]

♪sparse pensive music♪

So we started to work on his very complicated relationship

with his mother...

and he suddenly had a panic attack.

Wow.

And he had to get up and leave the room.

[inhales and exhales deeply]

♪

[exhales deeply]

♪

[Orna VO] You know, he keeps a real lid over it all.

[exhales deeply]

[Orna VO] But he's in a lot of pain.

And it's hurting both of them.

[Virginia VO] Right.

♪