Original subtitles

♪curious synth music♪

[Orna] How are you doing?

I'm-- I'm as good as I'm gonna be.

But how are you doing?

I'm okay.

I'm okay, I'm o-- I'm okay with...

her continuing.

Mm-hm.

♪♪♪

So...

there was, like, an incident that had happened to Nick in

college, where he had walked into his dorm room,

and his friends were, like, gathered around his computer,

and...

they had, like, found pornography that he had that was

of, like, larger women, and, um...

as he was sort of, like, exploring,

like, his sexuality and that he felt more,

like, sexually fluid -- like, he was sort of exploring...

attraction to, like...

women, but also to men, also to, like...

you know, a lot of different things, and, um...

so some of the pornography was actually...

was gay porn, and, um...

he felt there was intense judgment about that.

-Mm-hm. -Like, there was intense...

shame in that moment that, like, everybody wouldn't understand,

like, him, and understand, like...

I guess the complexity of his sexuality,

and would, like, pigeonhole him into, like,

"Oh, Nick's gay."

But can I-- can I just ask a few details about the--

[Nick] Yeah.

What the scene with the kids...?

-With your... -[Nick] Yeah, sure.

So they broke into your computer?

[Nick] Yeah.

I actually can't remember anything other than that --

like, walking into the room and having them be like,

"What-- what the hell is this," you know?

Like, "Really?!

Oh, you're into fat women?!"

Or "You're into guys?!"

Or, I don't know, whatever around those things...

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -[inhales deeply]

And then it, like, goes blank from there,

-except that I feel like-- -'Cause you dissociated.

[Nick] Yeah, like...

It was hard for me to go to class,

it was hard for me to go around campus,

because I just felt like, "Okay, now they're telling

other people. Who knows what?"

-Mm-hm. -[Nick inhales deeply]

[Orna] Terrifying.

Yeah. [sighs]

I just felt very trapped by the-- by the narrative that came

-out of that... -[Orna] Yeah.

Or the possible narrative that came out of that that's just...

not true and, like, not-- not being able to...

[sniffles] have my own voice to...

-explain it, I guess? -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Yeah.

I think that caused him to close up a lot,

like, around...

his sexuality.

Because he's been so afraid of being pigeonholed as gay...

Mm-hm.

He's, like, pushed away any "feminine,"

quote-unquote, characteristics of, like,

crying or being emo-- you know, being emotional.

A generalized...

Yeah, like I think he, like, disappeared himself,

and then he literally transferred schools.

Mm-hm.

[Katherine] Because his fear is that there was, like,

a lasting thing that went on,

-and that actually... -May not have happened.

May not have happened, and I think actually--

[Orna] That would be interesting to find out.

Didn't happen.

But, you know, I-- I find this story-- there's something about

this story-- I mean...

you know, there's something so...

symbolic about...

the formation of masculinity in this story --

that from this kind of...

creative, exploratory "Everything's possible,"

there's this demand -- cultural demand -- to become...

a man at a point of transition and, like...

say goodbye to all of that, and just, like,

-"Get in line and..." -[Nick] Yeah.

[Orna] In some way or another, it happens to most boys.

Yeah.

[Orna] Which is just so awful.

Mm-hm.

And violent.

There's so much violence in this story.

And so much loss.

♪curious sparse music♪

[Orna VO] Nick revealed what, for him,

was a very significant event during the first year

of college.

And it's interesting that he described,

even in the ayahuasca trip,

how the guides had to, like, keep circling back to him...

Mm-hm.

To, like, pull the demons out of him.

And I think he had me and Katherine trying to do that for

him, and help him release some of this pain.

[woman VO] Mm-hm.

I mean, considering the level of trauma

that he expressed as having,

that this is what came out in the end...

-[Orna VO] Yeah. -[Eyal VO] Is interesting.

[Orna VO] Yeah.

I don't know why boys are more vulnerable in this way,

but there are certain developmental milestones where

the self-consciousness...

is just so extreme.

Yeah, yeah.

And if they're injured at a certain point there,

it's like a full-blown injury to the core.

Mm.

[Orna] And if they don't have someone to go to...

[Kali] Mm-hm.

It starts kind of -- like a snowball -- accumulating,

like, traumatic energy around it.

[Ken] Right.

But like a snowball melts slowly,

I don't think we saw the full melting of it.

[Eyal] Not yet.

Mm-hm.

♪smooth reggae music♪

-Hi. -[Alison] Hi, honey.

Hi, everybody.

Hi!

I'm gonna behave today!

-[dog whines] -I think.

[Rod chuckles]

♪♪♪

I guess sometimes we come into the room knowing what I'm gonna

-say and... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Right now, I'm not sure.

Do you have anything?

'Cause last week, I just dived right in.

[Alison] But I liked when you were diving in.

Well, maybe now I'm taking the backseat for a moment.

I don't want you to take a backseat.

Believe me, I'm gonna talk, I'm just...

Okay?

Just start yappin'.

[sighs]

I know that you don't want to address anything,

but that doesn't mean that everything's okay.

[Rod] Of course it's not!

And you always say I don't speak, I don't speak,

and that pisses me off, saying I don't talk.

I think to myself, like, "Am I mute?

Why does she keep on saying I don't talk?

I do talk!"

Especially in recent weeks.

Nobody ever said you were mute.

No, but you'll still say, "You never say anything,

you never say anything."

And certainly, in this room, I do speak,

and I do believe outside this room,

I'm being more vocal as well.

But I want-- okay, I guess...

What's your dilemma?

-Say it out loud. -[Alison] [sighs]

It's a complacent place that I see him,

at times, get to.

Sometimes I am complacent, so sometimes you do give me a kick

which is needed, but that's not always the case.

I don't think it's a good idea to encourage Alison

to give you that kick.

Hm.

I think...

it burdens her,

it perpetuates this dynamic,

and you're kind of unconsciously robbing yourself of

getting in touch with your own thing.

'Kay.

Yeah, I know my homework assignment was, like,

-not to fill in the blanks. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I've definitely been, you know, conscientious of that.

I still do it, of course,

but when I did it last time, I was like,

"Oh! Don't do that."

Meaning if you come here and you sit,

and you're like, "I'm not-- I didn't prepare anything..."

[Rod] Mm-hm.

"I don't know what I wanna talk about..."

[Rod] Right.

That's a blank.

Yeah, that's true.

Mm-hm.

So is that a positive?

Noticing blanks is excellent!

It's a portal to something new,

rather than automatically filling it with...

picking a fight or...

[Rod] Mm-hm.

Asking someone to do that for you.

Mm-hm.

I want you to stand by yourself.

-But I-- -[Alison] But I do--

But I'm more than capable.

And that's-- I know you're capable.

I think that that's your--

-Alison. -[Alison] Yeah, sorry.

You start a sentence with "I want you..."

[Alison] Right.

And the other part of your sentence is

"to stand by yourself."

There's a contradictory in the structure of your sentence,

and what you're trying to say.

Okay.

You're telling him what to do.

And that's why sometimes, in our marriage,

I have chosen to kind of, you know,

be the quiet one, take a step back 'cause it's like,

"What's the point? She's telling me anyhow.

Why the point in injecting thoughts or ideas?"

But it's also true that, when you have...

-the time or the space... -[Rod] Mm-hm.

You call her in!

That's true as well, so I'm to blame as well.

-[Orna] Yeah. -Of course, it's 50/50.

So you're both in this-- you're both contributing to

the same dynamic.

Is that a learnt behavior?

Yeah!

It's...

Well, I mean, I'm sure you each came into this marriage

with an inclination to take these positions,

but then you found each other and...

perfected this...

-arrangement... -[Rod chuckles]

Which probably worked for you for a while,

but then stopped working.

It got too...

fossilized.

Yeah.

But what are you avoiding?

What would be different and less comfortable and new

-if you didn't habitually... -[Rod] Yeah.

Engage with each other in that way?

-I don't-- I'm not even sure. -[Orna] Try.

I would love to see it again.

For that to happen between the two of you...

[Alison] Mm-hm.

The two of you need to start imagining it.

How else can you connect?

♪cool funky music♪

[Mondo VO] Okay, so we went to a bathhouse.

[Orna VO] In Mexico?

Yes, first time as a couple doing this,

like, knowing what we were about to get into.

We were both excited, nervous, but mostly excited.

Mm-hm.

And it was a very positive experience.

We had a lot of fun.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Um...

[muffled speech] And I was not...

finished.

So, yeah...

[chuckles]

Okay.

-I wanted more. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

So we had been there for a little over three hours at this

point; that's a long time.

And for me, personally...

how much sex can you really have [laughing] in one night,

-you know? -Mm-hm.

Um, but we had a moment of check-in,

and I was just like, "Okay, we've been here for three hours,

we said we were going to dinner.

Do you think it's time for us to go home?"

And he didn't quite say yes and no,

he just...

kinda looked upset.

And it put me back in that place of feeling like the adult

calling the shots again.

By that point, he had shut down; he wasn't even listening.

And I'm just like, "What the fuck, Kyle?

Like, what's going on?"

Like, I could tell that...

it was killing the mood of what we had just experienced...

Mm-hm.

[Mondo] Which was the euphoria of in this space.

Suddenly, that's out the window,

and I'm like, "Really?

You're gonna shit on this right now?

Like, we're here having a good time.

-Like, what's your problem?" -[Orna] Mm-hm.

But then, he was like, "It wasn't enough.

I didn't have enough, it wasn't enough,

I wanted more.

-I could keep going..." -Mm-hm.

"Just when I started having fun, you took this away from me,

because I haven't been able to have fun until tonight."

And I'm like...

"What the hell have we been doing for the past three days?

What's going on?"

And then, it took a while, but eventually,

it came out of him where he starts expressing how...

the experience of being with our friends and being together in

the house, he was...

missing the deaf component, the exchange of a deaf person's

dialogue, the sign language...

All of that was missing.

Mm-hm.

And I'm just, like, sitting here like,

"Okay, I understand what your feelings are;

they're completely valid.

But...

why did it have to take us going to the bathhouse...

to be completely released?

To suddenly say that 'That was my fun,

and now you can't take that away from me?'"

Can I...

stop you for a second?

Because I'm just wondering if something similar is actually

happening right now...

in the sense that you're talking

and expressing what's going on,

and you're...

silent.

Mm.

I'm listening!

Right.

[chuckles]

What-- what?

Part of what Mondo is talking about is you holding things in

for a long time.

Yes, um...

[Orna] Are you doing the same thing now?

-Are you holding things in-- -[Kyle] No, no.

Rather than speaking?

I was waiting for my turn,

and I just wanted to figure out how we could...

-Yeah. -You're saying a lot, so...

-Yeah. -[Orna] Right.

But waiting for your turn...

I'm just wondering if that's part of what we're

talking about.

I...had a different agenda in my mind.

Oh, did you? [laughs]

Well, it was towards the end of our vacation!

Because you and I had a beautiful conversation about--

[Mondo] Yeah.

[Kyle] Your experiences of the bathhouse.

[Mondo] Yeah.

We had a beautiful conversation about the recognition of me

being selfish; I had not had fun for so long.

And then, when we get to the bathhouse,

I forgot how much fun I had.

[tuts tongue] "We gotta go home to my hearing friends."

Fuck no!

And I was caught in the moment where it's like...

like, "Kyle, come back to being an adult,

come back to being responsible."

Back the fuck up, because I'm having a good time.

I'm in Mexico, I don't have to think about work,

I don't have to think about your friends,

and I don't have to worry about being at a dinner table not

-being able to... -Mm-hm.

-[Kyle] Follow what's going on. -Right.

When they try to engage me,

I got disconnected, maybe I misunderstood,

got overwhelmed trying to catch up...

I give up!

I'm just gonna people watch and not talk about anything.

[sighs]

Damn! That feels good.

[Orna] Yeah, you had a lot to say!

[exhales deeply]

While sitting here quietly.

[laughs]

I was just...

waiting for the point where it was my turn,

so I can finally say something about...

-Yeah. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

So...

I'm developing a private theory that...

you're working so hard...

[Mondo] Uh-huh.

That you cannot pick up on

the cues...

[Mondo] Okay.

That Kyle is sending you.

Yes, I can see-- I can see my personality fit that.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -That, I can totally see it.

And Kyle, you're, like, not sending enough cues --

to Mondo, to your partner...

Yeah.

[Orna] To say, "Hey, I'm in distress!"

[Kyle] Yes.

I...

have had opportunities to...

give you a-- a hint or a cue.

"I'm feeling this way right now.

What can I do?"

Why?

What prevented me?

And it goes back to the common theme of,

if I were to say what I need,

you would turn away and walk away.

Right, you've said that to me.

It's the-- it's the same theme.

-Same theme. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Kyle] Just like my dad.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm repeating a pattern.

A little bit.

-[Kyle] I'm sorry? -A little bit.

♪soft pensive music♪

Bye.

[Orna VO] With most of these couples...

I see progress.

♪♪♪

Their way of using me and trusting me and trusting

the treatment...

is helping them trust each other.

[woman VO] Mm-hm.

[Orna] But Jessica and Boris,

I think they're different from their cohorts.

Yeah.

From the first session,

he talked about himself as a monster,

and then felt completely...

outraged [chuckling] by that characterization.

[group VO] Yeah.

[Eyal VO] And I think he's shocked

that he's having this destructive effect.

[Orna VO] To see the impact on her.

[Eyal VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] 'Cause all he's trying to do is actually just

-be himself. -[Eyal VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] And suddenly, there's this other person that's

mirroring back his impact.

[Eyal VO] Yeah, and destroyed by him.

[Orna VO] Yeah.

There's things in life that one wishes to do,

there's things in life that one doesn't wish to do but one

-has to do... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And there's things in life that one doesn't wish to do and

doesn't have to do,

and there is a fuck-load in my life

that is in the third department!

Like?

I will never again live in a house.

It is somebody else's dream!

I'm-- I'm running around trying to figure out what filter needs

to go into the water softener!

Mm-hm.

You multiply that by 20, 40--

like, there's just...

there's a dozen tasks like that that arrive at your doorstep

every day!

Mm-hm.

[Boris] Our time on Earth is not long!

Like...

Boris, can we just, like-- just-- can...

can we talk about me for a little bit?

I wanna talk about, like...

So I-- we are getting to you, love.

I'm just trying to explain where I am!

Like, don't worry, it'll get to you!

It'll get to you!

You're not forgotten, I promise!

You're on my mind all the time!

This isn't just The Boris Show!

I'm just trying to explain!

We will get to you!

I promise!

So how does all of this play out between the two of you,

and what is the ask?

So-- so I-- I'm just-- I'm radiating negativity!

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Which is no fun to be around for Jessica,

and...

So all of this is on your mind and heart...

[Boris] Yes.

And what happens?

So...

like, right now, I'm feeling like,

"Let's talk about us, and...

the other side of the coin."

Like, there are all the things that Boris feels he needs to be

doing, and then there's the stuff that I need,

need, need to be doing, for-- for us...

to live right now.

I have to make money.

And...

I was more stable at one point, and I'm getting less and less

and less stable.

Because what is happening?

[Jessica] What is happening here...

is now what is happening here.

How?

I've been not physically well for a while.

I've had a persistent cough for, like,

-nearly a year... -Mm-hm.

I've lost weight that I wasn't trying to lose...

-Mm-hm. -[Jessica] Um...

sometimes my hands will shake.

-Mm-hm. -Um...

like, I just-- my immune system is just shot.

Like, if I get something, I don't get over it.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -It just stays.

Um...

that plus...

the emotional part of it, I-- I just see that I'm

[chuckling] heading towards a place where I will probably not

be able to work at all!

Yeah.

And I said to you,

"I think that I need to be...

I need-- I need you to go away for a while.

I need you to move out

in order to...

calm this situation down."

Mm-hm.

[Boris clears throat]

What would you prefer?

I would prefer to stay there.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

It does not-- it's not a life that works for me,

but it's even worse to move out.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Can the two of you imagine what would be a better idea

to just either...

take a break or separate?

What can you live with?

One very...

"easy" thing -- one very clear but not easy thing --

for both of us:

Boris figures out ways of not being so upfront with

everything that's making him upset,

Jessica continues tolerating and acknowledging Boris' difficult

moments by engaging with him in a way that makes him feel like

this is her burden too.

But I wanna ask whether the solution you're looking for --

trying to recruit Jessica to the task --

is the way to go.

I just wanna tell you that sometimes,

that is a fantasy that is not realistic.

Recognition and acknowledgement and shared purpose cannot be

a fantasy.

I don't know.

-[Boris] I-- I-- -I don't know.

[chuckles]

"Recognition" sometimes is a code name for something

that is...

beyond another person's capacity to give.

But then it's not a good dynamic for me.

Trust me, from clinical experience,

sometimes the ask from another person,

they can't give it to you.

It might be that Jessica is saying to you,

"I cannot be the person helping you here."

[Boris] I understand!

The thing that I'm seeking,

the other person can't give.

[Orna] Okay, well, I wanna hear that.

I wanna hear the two of you try to figure that out.

We-- we did this last week.

Let's not-- let's not-- we-- we-- we, like...

So how-- how can I help you with that?

Look, the fact is that Jessica --

and I think a lot of it is valid and understandable --

is fucking furious with me existentially!

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And has very, very, very little rope

to do anything other than grit her teeth

through what I'm going through!

W...

[Boris] She doesn't want to deal with this!

She doesn't wanna hear about it!

What does it mean "to deal with it?"

It's just with real soul and heart,

just be like,

"Love, this is a catastrophe for you!

Like, in terms of personal identity and self-worth or

purpose, whatever you--"

What? Why is that your reaction?

Because I have done that!

-I've done that! -Can you--

And you do not feel that it is enough!

Can you-- can you just-- can you open yourself up to the

possibility that you haven't?

Your feelings are so big,

and so...

They fill up a lot of space...

They take up all the room.

[Jessica] I'm tired of fighting for space.

Mm-hm.

I understand.

[sniffles]

-[Boris sighs] -How else are you feeling?

[sighs]

[tearfully] I was initially hopeful,

and now, I feel...

[sniffles] I feel, um...

doomed.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I just wish there could be some part of you that was like,

"My-- my wife is, like, shriveling.

My wife is unwell.

Let's give her some stability.

Let's prioritize that for just a little bit!

So she can get...

in a good place again,

an okay place again."

[sniffles]

But your problem is so big...

[sniffles]

that there's no room...

for those considerations.

♪melancholy music♪

When I say to him, "This is not something you can necessarily

ask of a partner --

you know, this is your existential plight, it's not...

a shared plight, it's yours,"

he can't stand that.

[Virginia] Right, right, right.

And she talked about, like, really intense

[chuckling] conversion symptoms.

For example, she has this, like, year-long cough...

that she can't diagnose.

[Virginia] Uh-huh, it's made her sick!

Yeah.

So it seems to me that he is more in love

with his neurotic psychodynamics

than he is capable of being loved

by a real person,

and so that in a couples therapy format where you try to

help him get a lot,

if he's more lost in his own psychodynamics,

it's not gonna be meaningful!

Yeah.

I am rendered absolutely useless to him.

Yeah.

Like, when I try to, like,

-intervene in a certain way... -[Virginia] Yeah.

I can go a little bit, and then he just puts the wall down...

-[Virginia] Yeah. -And he's like,

"There's no point in doing that."

I really feel like he...

yeah, he could bolt; like, he does not like me.

I don't know if he's written me off yet,

but...

I-- I'm in [chuckling] dangerous territory there.

♪cool groovy music♪

♪Why you so serious?♪

♪That look upon your face♪

♪You're so mysterious♪

♪Like it's some kind of game♪

♪Are you delirious?♪

♪You think I'm gonna stay♪

♪Well, you're stuck in your ways♪

♪I'm telling you it's gotta change♪

♪Don't say I didn't warn ya♪

♪I'm on the other side♪

♪I've started the letting go♪

♪'Cause you ain't here tonight♪

♪I'm halfway out the door♪

♪Why you acting surprised?♪

♪Well, I don't come for free♪

♪You've got to pay the price♪

♪So if you don't love it, you will lose it♪

♪If you don't get it, it will go♪

♪If you don't love it, you'll lose it♪

♪Babe, you've got to give before it's gone♪

♪Gone♪

♪Gone♪