Original subtitles

♪ upbeat mellow music ♪

I'm Rodney.

And I'm Alison. Can you hear me?!

We are in New York City, and I apologize for the noise,

but hey, it's New York City.

♪

[Alison] Rod, you look very cute.

- Handsome? - [Alison] Yeah.

- Fabulous? - [Alison VO] You're fabulous.

[laughs]

Hi.

[kiss] Love you tons.

You too.

- See ya later. - [Alison] Bye.

Bye.

♪

One thing I've learned through a lot of this therapy,

and a lot of us being here together...

- Mm-hm. - Is...

- I guess I expect more... - [Orna] Mm-hm.

Than I'm getting.

[Orna] "Expect."

You're using a very particular word.

You're not saying "I long for,"

you're saying "I expect," which means...

that sets up Rod to fail.

Okay, okay.

You expect, and then the person fails you.

[Alison] Mm-hm.

[Orna] So that's already a dynamic that is toxic for the

two of you.

Because then, I get a response--

[Rod] But what is it you expect?

If you were expecting, what is it you expect?

I don't know what-- I don't know what I want.

That's important.

[Alison] I don't-- I'm not sure what I want.

But you know you're disappointed.

Because-- right.

And none of you even know what's missing.

[chuckles]

- [Alison] Not even close. - [Orna] Yeah.

You don't know what you want, you don't know what is expected.

Both of you just know it fails.

Correct.

Meaning there's nothing there, really.

[sighs]

This is, like, some cover-up for something else.

- Mm-hm. - Yes!

Okay.

But the reason I sometimes choose to avoid

- these conversations is-- - [Orna] Yeah.

Maybe because they're difficult,

and dare I say anything about finances and that's it;

- that's, you know-- - But it's not--

- Hold on. - [Alison] Okay.

[quietly] Sorry.

[Rod] There's a lot of pressure on me.

What you want of me, I want of myself.

It's not bad to kind of, you know,

be more successful for a second.

But when you deliver it with that, you know,

jab, it feels-- ugh!

- It feels what? - [Rod] It feels--

It feels what?!

What does it feel?!

- It feels like-- - It feels like a jab!

- [Alison] Okay but-- - But look, right there--

But doesn't--

But I'm asking you nicely.

But the anger's manifesting right now.

- I mean, you're getting-- - It's not-- I'm not--

- I'm not, Rod. - [Rod] Okay.

- I'm really not! - [Rod] Okay.

Well, you sound angry.

- [Alison] Okay. - You sound frustrated.

- You don't-- - [Alison] Because I feel like--

Okay, okay, because--

You do not sound like you wanna hear what it feels like.

I do wanna hear it.

- So do something-- - [Alison] Okay.

With your demeanor that invites that.

You just witnessed it; she triggers so quickly...

Mm-hm.

[Rod] And it's like, "Whoa," again--

Well, did you see what I did?

[Rod] Yeah, you did, absolutely.

- You can do that. - Mm-hm.

We need to tackle our issues!

[Orna] What does that mean?

We need to talk about our finances!

We need to get help and figure out what we need to do together!

Do you wanna try talking about finances?

[Alison] Sure.

Go ahead.

- [Rod] We know the answer. - Okay.

[Rod] We need to make more income; that's the answer.

We can't cut back on anything 'cause there's nothing to cut

back on.

We need to bring in more.

There are things you spend on that I don't,

and it's another X amount here, another X amount there.

And we don't have conversations about that.

All of a sudden, I see, wow, $700 out of the bank.

- Where'd that go? - What are you talking about?

You went to get your eyes tested last-- a couple weeks ago

and you spent $700!

But you know it's once a year that I go and I get my

eyes checked.

- I'm not gonna justify that. - Okay.

[Alison] I'm not!

And this is where I get angry, 'cause this is where, like,

that-- that's the conversation we're having?

It just came up, it wasn't even-- it wasn't conscious.

I wasn't--

What conversation do you wanna be having?

You wanted to talk about money,

and here's a conversation about money.

It just-- it--

So why didn't you talk to me about it then?

Why did you have to wait?

Like, if there's something bothering you--

So...

if you want...

Rod to talk to you more,

you have to make the conversations...

- inviting. - [Alison] Okay.

If you're gonna keep being angry,

you're not gonna have that thing you want.

What triggered the anger?

That [indistinct] glasses?

[Alison] Because I've taken a lot of time away to be with our

- daughter. - Mm-hm.

And I don't regret one minute;

I am thrilled that I've been home.

But...

we lost a lot of money...

- when I was home! - [Orna] Mm-hm.

[Alison] So now, it's like catch-up.

Mm-hm.

But it sounds like you're regretful for the last decade.

[sighs]

And then when he says something like that,

I just-- I'm not interested to talk to him about it,

- 'cause, like-- - Why?

Because it-- it is so...

it's so condescending!

You're in a job, so I'm frustrated!

Mm-hm.

I just feel like it's the same dialogue,

over and over again.

- Years of it! - Mm-hm.

'Cause I feel like it's so suppressed for so long...

on the reality on how much it hurts!

What hurts?

I don't know what I'm saying; I don't.

- I really don't. - I-- I agree!

[Alison] I really don't.

I don't know how to communicate.

I don't know what to say.

Mm-hm.

I just think that you can apply yourself so much more,

and you don't.

And maybe this is who you are!

And, like, this is who I am!

Mm-hm.

Anxious and angry over...

performance!

Over whose performance?

[Alison] Rod's!

Because I didn't have a performance.

Mm-hm.

I took too much time off.

And that's what I'm angry at.

I'm angry at myself.

Yeah.

[Alison] That's it.

I mean, that's-- that's...

so honest, I can't be any more honest.

And yes, I expect a lot from you!

Over the last decade--

that's how old our daughter is--

I've stepped five lev--

What did you just hear Alison say?--

But-- but he didn't!

- Okay, sorry, sorry. - Hold on.

[Alison] Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

What did you just hear Alison say?

She's admitted that she's upset with herself for taking so much

- time off. - [Orna] Yeah.

And that's obviously, you know, true and deep.

- And hard. - [Rod] Yeah.

But I didn't acknowledge that.

I heard it, but I didn't acknowledge it.

[Orna] Right.

But also, because of that, we have a awesome kid,

and you're an awesome mum.

So you have to also give yourself a pat on the back for,

you know...

It might not be in the bank, but it's certainly in the

- life experiences. - That's great...

but not the point.

- Yeah, uh-huh. - [chuckles] Thank you.

No, it's not!

Doesn't-- doesn't feel good.

[sighs]

[dog whines]

I feel the same way, Nico.

If I could lay on the floor, I would do the same-- I would!

Do the same exact thing right now.

- [laughs] - [Alison] On the sisal rug.

I would lay right like that.

Now, that's how I feel.

♪ cool funky music ♪

[Orna VO] Let's talk about Kyle and Mondo.

[group VO] Yes.

[Orna VO] They're, like, deeply committed to doing the work.

[woman VO] Mm-hm.

[Orna VO] Maybe even too committed.

[Ken] Yeah, it's-- I was aware

that Mondo was saying far more than Kyle.

Mm-hm.

And I wonder if Mondo doesn't fill in...

- [Orna] Mm-hm. - In some ways.

- He does; he works so hard. - [Ken] So hard.

[Mondo] It's like I'm not sure what...

[Orna VO] I found myself imagining Kyle's experience in

therapy the way I imagine his childhood.

[woman VO] Mm-hm.

[Orna VO] Sort of in this, like, silent, lonely,

out-of-sync place,

where people on the outside are, like...

having experiences that he's, like,

- not connecting to. - [woman VO] Yeah.

[Orna] I-- I have to hear more about that.

- Yes. - Mm-hm.

[Kyle VO] [muffled speech] My grandmother was deaf.

[Orna VO] Oh!

And she eventually married my step-grandfather,

who was deaf as well.

Aha!

The culture back in Poland, not a lot of resources

for the deaf individual.

We're talking, like, back in 19...

- 50s, 1960s. - Yeah.

My mother had to be the one who would take care of her brother,

she would take care of the family,

she would take care of the home

while their parents were out and about.

[Orna] Wow.

And my mother hated it.

Yeah.

Finally, she married my dad, who was abusive--

very abusive.

- Eventually, she left. - Mm-hm.

But this one moment that I will never forget was...

I remember...

playing in the hallway, and my mother coming out.

She was covered in blood.

Mm!

I knew my dad was in there, but I didn't understand what was

happening, and then she smiled at me,

and she was like, "Go play outside."

Fast-forward, I'm in this room with this social worker.

Mm-hm.

She was asking me, "Have you ever seen your mom cry?"

And I remember, I looked over to my mom and my sister,

and I say, "What color are crying supposed to be?"

And my sister and my mom look at each other,

and she was like, "Clear, of course!"

And I look over and I was like...

"I remember seeing red!"

[softly] Wow.

I mean, there are many aspects of you

talking about being isolated that sound--

I'm imagining it as difficult and...

- sometimes heartbreaking. - Mm-hm.

But I'm also thinking about the fact that it provided

a certain kind of protection

from all the madness that was going on at home.

[Kyle] Yeah.

I didn't know what was happening.

[Orna] Yeah.

It's like watching a silent movie.

Oh, yeah.

In black and white.

[chuckles]

No music, nothing.

It's just like, "What's happening?"

And I realized, "Oh, I'm alone,"

- and I was a child. - [Orna] Yeah.

[Kyle] Finally, she married my stepdad.

And then, one day after school, came back home--

it was the year 2002--

I came home and I asked, "Where's George?"--

my step-father.

"Oh, he packed up.

He left."

"Oh, that's all you're gonna say?

Okay."

And I've never seen him ever since.

Wow.

No proper goodbyes, no explanation.

And so after that, I started to, you know...

started to think to myself, "It was probably my fault."

Mm-hm.

The same thing with my father;

he probably left me because I was too inconvenient for him.

I required hearing aids; he didn't wanna pay for that.

I required braces; he didn't wanna pay for that.

He was complaining about how expensive it was to pay

35-dollar child support every two weeks!

Please...

That's how worthy I am?

Okay, I see where you're going.

Mm-hm.

Um, from my perspective of listening to what you're telling

me, it feels like so far away.

I hope that you can see that it's not...

it's not your present, and, like,

how much, as your partner,

it hurts me to see you question your worthiness in the present,

where I'm just like,

"Kyle, snap out of it!

That's not-- that's not the narrative right now!"

Mm-hm.

That was the one lesson you taught me in the very beginning

of our relationship:

- "Snap out of it!" - Yeah.

Like, "Be here with me!"

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Kyle] It's work!

[Orna] Yeah.

♪ mellow funky music ♪

[Boris] [clears throat]

♪

[exhales deeply]

[whispering] How you doin'?

Not good?

Are you gonna be able to do this?

[sighs]

What are you supposed to do when

two people in a relationship have just...

diametrically-opposite feelings about

one of the most prominent experiences in their lives?

Like their home?

Like-- yeah, like their home life.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

As I mentioned here before, I-- I feel like we have made our

lives-- and particularly my life--

much, much harder...

through the choices that we've made,

and Jessica has a different experience of our lives,

and...

I'm unhappy and she's happy.

[chuckling] What do you-- what do you...

There's only so much

hiding in your love for your kids that you can do.

- [Orna] Mm-hm. - [Boris] Right?

I would-- I would say that I'm clinically depressed.

- Mm. - [Boris] Right?

And I think I'm clinically depressed in a cumulative

reaction...

to...

an ongoing series of failures to find a place that feels

- like home. - Yeah.

And I c-- like, putting a smile on my face while I feel that is

- like-- - [Orna] Impossible.

Right, it's like asking a paralyzed person to get up;

it's just-- it's...

it's a mental issue; it's just...

I can't do it.

- And-- - Can I ask you to pause?

Where are you, Jessica?

[softly] I have never asked you to put a smile on your face.

- I-- I don't-- - Ever!

- [Boris] I-- I don't-- - Where are you?

[Jessica] I'm not good.

[voice wavering] I'm very tired.

I'm very tired of talking about this,

I'm very tired...

[sniffles]

I'm very tired.

Tell me.

Um...

I think it's just assumed that I can't understand,

and that I...

can't change, I can't...

give him what he wants.

[sniffles]

- Which is? - Understanding and...

solutions.

Well, I guess those are two different things.

[Jessica] Yeah, they're different things.

So if I understood him,

I could help us find solutions...

for this problem.

For me, the issue is not understanding,

it's acknowledgment.

Or being in there with you.

As you've said, feeling like it's "our problem,"

rather than "your problem."

Yeah, it's a feeling, it's a matter of tone;

it's not a matter of words.

Any words can get said,

- but you can't fake feelings. - Mm-hm.

Can you say more about what it's like to be...

in your shoes?

[sighs] I don't know.

[Orna] Keep going.

What's coming up for you?

[sniffles] [tearfully] There's nothing to say.

There's really nothing to say.

[Orna] Because?

Because we've had this conversation so many times,

and it's just...

blown up in my face. [chuckles]

[sniffles]

Right, but I'm here, so let me at least hear how it potentially

blows up for each of you, and maybe I can help.

[Jessica] [sighs]

So we know we can't move.

What can we do to help you feel comfortable for now?

Is there anything that we can do that...

would give you...

any comfort?

And the answer is no.

[whispering] Right. [sniffles]

The remoteness of the place is the problem,

homeownership is the problem,

joblessness is the problem,

professional and financial insecurity is the problem.

Like...

there's nothing that my wife and kids can do.

The only thing that would make me feel less alone is if I felt

like my wife wasn't gritting her teeth

through the times that I brought this up.

Can't you understand how this move has-- this-- this thing

that is helping you thrive...

I don't understand; it's so plain, it's so simple!

Like, can't you see how it's made my life harder?!

Yes, Boris.

I-- I-- yes!

[sniffles]

And I would do almost anything, at this point,

to help you feel better.

I know that...

you're in a lot of pain.

[sniffles]

But my knowing...

[chuckling] doesn't seem to help.

[sniffles]

And I have...

failed to make you feel that I...

[sniffles] have sympathy for you,

or that I'm proud of you...

for doing everything else that you've done.

[sniffles]

[sighs]

And so you feel really alone.

[sniffles] And I'm sorry.

[whispering] Thank you.

[sniffles] It doesn't mean anything.

[sniffles]

[whispering] I'm sorry, it doesn't.

Yeah. [sniffles]

♪ mellow curious music ♪

[Jessica] [sniffles]

- [whispering] Take care. - [Jessica] [sighs]

[whispering] Thanks.

[sniffles]

♪

[sniffles]

♪

[Orna VO] It's really important for people to recognize when

their partner is offering them something.

And with Jessica, she's really trying,

and he's just refusing to see it.

- [woman VO] Yeah. - [door shuts loudly]

[Kali] Do you think the therapy is making it worse?

[Orna] I don't know.

Mm.

♪

[Orna VO] But there's something about the therapy--

like, sitting there in a pressure cooker--

which is really not good medicine for these guys.

[man VO] Yeah.

They're too fragile.

[Orna VO] Yeah.

♪

You know, we have two couples like that--

them, and also Nick and Katherine--

where I think it feels dangerous to them

to talk about certain things.

Come on, let's go!

Let's go, let's go!

Can you make a shot over me?

[Orna VO] It's like a fear of judgment...

Whoa!

[Orna VO] Even though they're actually beautifully

nonjudgmental with each other.

[man VO] Right.

♪

[Nick] Nice!

You know, we've been talking about my, like,

showing up and being vulnerable,

and I feel like that's what's been on my mind.

Describe it.

Well, I was thinking about it today,

and I feel like...

the reason that this show and this whole experience

- makes it more acute... - Mm-hm.

Is because it's-- it revolves around, like...

the thoughts and opinions of other people...

- [Orna] Mm-hm. - [Nick] I don't know.

- I'm just worried about-- - I know, there's everybody...

There's sort of just this...

vulnerability around my story,

- and my pain. - [Orna] Mm-hm.

[Orna] Yeah.

But I feel like it's not just the show,

it's sort of just, like, how I show up in the universe.

Yeah.

If I have, like, a work call or I have a social engagement with

a new friend or something like that like we had this week,

and I just feel like, um, there's a...

I can't relax and just kind of...

There's like a fatigue that comes over you.

There's a fatigue.

- I think "fatigue" is right. - Yeah.

But the fatigue-- if we take it as, um...

you know, the way we were talking about your insomnia--

what psychological operations...

exhaust you or keep you up?

Like, what's-- what's the underlying...

thing that is churning?

[Nick] [inhales deeply]

Something happened to me that, like,

made me feel a lot of shame,

and made me lose the narrative

- around myself... - [Orna] Mm-hm.

Publicly.

That's big.

You know, we all have our stuff, right?

Our insecurities.

I think-- I definitely had them, but this was, like,

- a pivotal moment. - [Orna] Mm-hm.

[Nick] Like, before that, yes, I was more trusting,

- I was more open, like... - Mm-hm.

I had more fun, I was more joyful,

I was, like...

- excited. - [Orna] Mm-hm.

And then, it was just suddenly like-- ffffwt-- like...

barely leaving the room.

Like a dark depression.

Dark, like...

crying a lot, didn't wanna go anywhere.

Like, it created a sadness, and I think that I had to spend many

years coming out of that to, like,

figure out how to...

- not feel that way all the time. - Yeah.

And I never-- I actually never talked about it

to a single person...

except her.

But right before ayahuasca,

because I thought it was gonna-- I thought it was gonna come out.

- [Katherine] Yeah. - [Nick] Yeah.

Like, he got so good at...

- turning off his thoughts... - [Orna] Yeah.

So that he doesn't feel anything.

[Orna] Yeah.

In general, I understand the need to cope,

but when those defense operations get rigidified,

they rob you of the whole...

spectrum of possible experiences you can have as a human.

[Nick] Absolutely.

I mean, I feel it; I feel that deeply.

I feel like...

I feel like my body has been in fight or flight

every second of...

- 20 years. - [Orna] Mm-hm.

And I don't like it.

- Like, I don't-- - [Orna] No.

I don't like it.

What do you have to say about this?

I mean, I think he's fighting himself.

Like, I think he's fighting...

who he really is.

Mm-hm.

And I think, like, ayahuasca was the start,

but there was, like, I mean, so much...

self-loathing that came out,

I just had no idea that he felt that way about himself.

What-- what is that about?

[chuckles]

[gulps]

I just don't know.

Like, I don't-- I don't feel like...

[sniffles]

I don't know about talking about some of my...

- stuff. - Mm-hm.

It feels too risky?

Yeah, it does.

[clears throat]

[sniffles]

I think that I struggle with sharing the details of this

story with you, and then trying to figure out if that...

unlocks something, because now, you have that story,

and that that changes everything.

Mm-hm.

For me, if I'm gonna tell this story,

I wanna be able to...

tell it, like, confidently.

Like, "This is my story, this is what happened to me,

- it's okay." - [Orna] Mm-hm.

But I don't feel like that's what's gonna happen;

I feel like I'm gonna... [inhales deeply]

stumble through it, and bawl, and, like,

it's gonna not...

- be what I want. - Yeah.

[Nick] And then it's there.

And this story has to do with...

a lack of control around a narrative.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

It could get reenacted all over again.

[Katherine] Yeah.

[Nick] Like, that's been my struggle, where it's like--

Yeah.

"Is it worth reenacting to address what I need to talk

- about it and own it?" - [Orna] Mm-hm.

But I'm not sure I can own it because of my lack

of comfortability--

But I think the power of us being here together and being

here as a couple is that the first time you went through

that, you were alone.

You didn't have anyone.

That's not the case anymore.

Like, I'm here with you.

You're not alone.

Mm-hm.

[exhales deeply]

I mean, I've sort of wondered if, like...

Katherine c-- [chuckling] could tell this story for me.

[laughs]

That's an interesting idea.

[Nick] [sighs]

I suppose we all don't know-- until we talk about it--

how it helps.

[inhales deeply]

[exhales deeply]

Why don't you start?

Go ahead.

Okay. [chuckles]

♪ exciting synth music ♪