Original subtitles

[Mitch VO] So, um...

we did your experiment...

uh, this week, and... [chuckles]

What are the results?

-[Mitch] Bittersweet. -Okay.

The good parts were that we got to spend a lot of time together.

As you'd probably gathered from the sessions,

I'm very, like, charismatic and exciting.

-[laughs] -So...

it had a positive effect on her, um...

on her demeanor on a daily basis;

I've noticed that my presence in her life uplifts her,

makes her a better person, and, uh,

she enjoys it.

You like yourself so much you should date yourself.

-[laughs] -That is great!

Which also has a trickle-down effect into our relationship,

because when she's happy in her individual life...

I'm happy.

This is a lot.

[Mitch] Yeah!

The bitter part is the shock that

my continuous presence had on Law.

Like, he just started biting him.

Law doesn't bite, like not even in daycare.

So, like, for him to start biting him,

I was like, "What is going on?!"

Like...

What's going on?

We call it, in jargon...

-Oedipus! -[Elíana and Mitch laugh]

[Elíana, laughing] What is that?!

-That is "Mommy's mine..." -[Elíana] Y-- okay.

-"And..." -Okay.

[Orna] "Daddy's my competitor."

[both laugh]

[laughing] My God!

Okay, so...

you're cured!

No.

[Orna and Mitch laugh]

♪cool theme music♪

♪pensive ambient music♪

[Orna VO] Usually, I see couples for less than a year.

The idea is that you identify the key dynamic,

and you try to introduce a certain kind of systemic change.

♪♪♪

Some couples need more time and some couples stay long term,

but that's rare.

With Casimar and Alexes,

my connection with them is very strong;

like, the countertransference...

is very intense.

Right.

I emailed them...

[Virginia] Uh-huh!

Which is, like, not something I do --

with, like, a description of what I thought was going on...

Uh-huh.

That they both had very traumatic histories,

and they developed very different paradigms of how to

-cope with those... -[Virginia] Uh-huh.

That Casimar finds a way to keep peace with everyone;

he keeps peace with his mother and with his father --

he got permission to keep the peace with his father.

Uh-huh, wow.

Alexes, on the other hand, spent so many years being abused and

then the mother totally denying is experience.

-Chilling. -[Orna] Yeah.

So he was coerced into silence,

-and for him, no more. -[Virginia] Right.

"I will never do that again."

There's something perfectly fitting about their traumas,

and then perfectly triggering.

[Virginia VO] Perfectly triggering, right.

♪sensitive folk music♪

Hello!

-Hello. [clears throat] -[Alexes] Hey.

♪♪♪

[Alexes sighs]

[Orna VO] I feel...

a mood coming in.

[softly] Yeah.

Who's gonna tell me what's happening?

My last fuck was given last week,

because he shows up in this room in ways that I've never

-experienced him. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

That stops and ends with that door.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

He left this last session...

within an hour, doesn't know why we're doing this.

This is a cycle that needs to be broken;

I am tired of this constant pain.

What is the cycle?

This cycle of, like, when we are good,

we are in this place that others can only dream about,

but it's not a place with a solid foundation--

Meaning...?

[Casimar] Because when the floor is cracked...

Mm-hm.

It's not like my foot falls in; my whole body...

[Orna] Yeah.

-Goes through. -[Orna] Yeah.

Which is-- as we've discussed, that is to be expected when you

come with-- each of you with, like,

really traumatic histories,

so there are really major gaps inside each of you between...

different modes.

The way that I understand stuff is that I attach it to something

else that I already know and understand fully.

[Orna] Right.

So I think of, like, phobias, right?

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Somebody's afraid of heights,

they don't wanna go on the rollercoaster, like me.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I don't stop everyone else from going on the rollercoaster.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I have the issue; you all can go have fun,

come see me when you come down.

But in the realm of trauma and a realm that I'm still

understanding -- and this is not directed at you at all --

that it's kind of like,

"I have the issue so nobody else can do this around me,

and when everyone else wants to go on the rollercoaster,

I'm mad."

And it's like, "No, you don't understand;

I'm going through this. You can't go up there...

-'cause I'm going through this." -[scoffs] My gosh...

-So... -[sucks teeth]

Please, I'm trying to tell you my understanding of trauma,

not you!

Trauma is still new for me!

I understand, and I'm sorry to interrupt,

but you're comparing...

Oh my goodness.

It's incredibly devastating that you think...

talking about...

multiple years of rape is similar to a rollercoaster!

Alexes...

The comparison you're making is insulting!

It's not about you, and if you would have heard that,

that was the first thing that I did!

You cannot help but take a moment that I am speaking about

my own understanding, that it is new for me --

I am learning!

So, but...it just can't be said in front of me.

It just can't!

[Casimar] But then that's a you issue!

That has nothing to do with me!

You have to control your feelings!

But I'm allowed to have boundaries!

[Orna] Here's what's goin' on...

[sighs]

Casimar is trying to tell you something about the process

which he's going through to try to be a better partner to you.

I understand that you're saying that the comparison is driving

you crazy.

So let's figure out other ways that the two of you,

when you get into this kind of...

lock --

trauma material, blame...

you start to feel each other as dangerous --

what else can you do to take a timeout?

'Cause, obviously, you're unbelievably capable of thinking

through this stuff...

not in the heat of the moment.

I honestly don't know because...

I can tell you.

Please.

I don't want you to feel blame, but it is a hundred percent what

you do when you're frustrated -- when you reach your limit --

is then you fucking stab me!

[voice wavering] Because you want me to hurt!

Because you're hurting, and I get why you're doing it and it's

not that you don't care, it's that...

that's your defense and protection.

Can you say...

"I need time?"

[Alexes] I...

can try, but I...

I--

Like, you know, a safe word.

"I need time."

I-- I'm telling you; sometimes my...

I-- I can't even tell you what I'm thinking because it's going

so fast in my brain.

It's just like, whoo whoo whoo.

Like, I can almost, like, hear it, honestly.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And just can't...

Like, my whole body is, like...

-just paralyzed. -Mm-hm.

[Alexes] And the only way I can...

get out of it, usually, is if I get really angry...

-[Orna] Right. -Which I've told him this!

And then if I'm angry, I'm mean,

and then I'm who I don't wanna be, you know?

Or if I have a drink!

Or, you know, like, those-- that's how I get out of...

Right.

[Alexes] Like, this paralytic --

I don't know if that's the right word --

like, feeling!

Dude...

[sighs]

[voice wavering] This is hard!

And I don't wanna leave you.

But if we cannot...

walk together...

I will.

I've hurt enough.

-[Orna] Meaning? -[sniffles]

I've experienced enough pain...

[sniffles]

in trying to love you, in trying to understand!

[sniffles]

I can't out-love this trauma.

-[Orna] Mm-mm. -I-- I thought I could.

Did you have any reaction to Casimar saying "I was hoping to

love you out of trauma?"

[Alexes] Mm, I'm scared that it's just not possible.

I'm just too broken, you know.

♪tender indie rock♪

-[Orna, softly] Bye. -[Casimar] Thank you.

♪♪♪

[Orna VO] Tell me about God.

Yeah, to me, it's, like...

everything physical, spiritual, emotional,

like...

it's the very being of who I am.

Like, there's no me without...

like, being a Christian.

Like, I don't even know who I am or what I would need to do and

why I need to be living if I wasn't a Christian --

almost like a parent, right?

He was like my father -- the father I never had --

and it's like, "Oh, how can I be good?

How can I be seen as, like, the perfect daughter?"

And, honestly, that was the way I, like,

survived through my childhood:

I...

talked to Him -- to God -- all the time.

Um, I've cried, prayed,

but it's the way I've been--

-I've survived through life. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I'm grateful for that.

And do you have anything to tell me about God and your

relationship to God and religion and...?

I was introduced to Christianity by Joey.

It was not, like, by choice...

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -So to speak.

Um...

I thought myself as...

atheist or apathetic, and then, I was--

Has anyone in your family been religious?

Not too entirely religious, but they do practice...

-Chinese tradition. -Mm-hm.

And then, shortly before we started dating,

I started practicing Buddhism.

There was a center; I'd go there, like,

once a week, just chant out all my problems...

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -The day, just to feel happier.

And then, uh, you know, I met Joey and she-- she told me...

[chuckles] She-- she forced it on me,

basically, saying that, uh, "Oh, that's the Devil,"

um, "There's only one true God,"

"You have to change your religion to Christianity."

And, you know, slowly but surely,

-you know, I just convert... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

To Christianity.

Any...thoughts, Joey?

Uh, all of the, like, Buddhist stuff or everything that he's

done before was before we were official.

He feels like it's forced, but I didn't force him.

-You have a choice. -It was a pre-req.

Right, it's a pre-req, but we weren't dating.

I told you, like, "Hey, I wanna find a partner who is a

Christian, and, to me, that's important,

so if we're gonna build a life together,

-yes..." -[Orna] Mm-hm.

"We can't coexist having these different values and belief

systems."

I told her that we could coexist.

I fail to see the reason why we couldn't...

if I was still practicing Buddhism --

or Chinese tradition....

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Why couldn't we make it work?

Like, she never...

accepted that, because her truth is just...

God alone.

I think what he's referring to is the Chinese tradition called

"Baai San," which is like, um...

like, every year, all-- most Chinese culture go

and they go see, like, the graves of their ancestors.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And they pray, say something, worship,

like, put stuff there, and I told him, like,

I was uncomfortable with that because...

if he truly has accepted, like, Jesus as his savior,

how can you believe something else that kind of conflicts

with that belief?

And I started to feel a certain way...

What's "a certain way?"

Like, a little perturbed because...

I thought this was...

already put to bed, and I don't know why it's coming up now.

Well, it's coming up 'cause I'm asking.

Right, but I mean as in, like, it wasn't even an issue,

or at least I wasn't aware it's still an issue.

Do you wanna say something?

Baai San, right?

That's just a once-a-year thing where my family,

we just put a bouquet of flowers in front,

and I say, "Hi,

thank you for taking care of me,

goodbye," and we leave.

And she says that practice...

is...not good.

You've said that the roots were [chuckling] religious, right?

So it doesn't matter if you spend 15 minutes and you're not

doing the whole shebang;

it's still, like, coming from roots of a religious practice.

So, to me, it's very black and white.

Let's bring in the mothers.

Um, so-- so tell me about your mothers on this.

Oh, I would say she's probably even more,

um...

you know, black and white with things,

because she's also very traditional.

When her mom was around, that's all you hear:

"You two are going to Hell."

I'm sure that that takes a toll on Joey.

I mean, that's terrifying.

It's just-- my whole life, it's been terrifying,

so...

I wanna do what...

you know, makes my Father happy, and what would make Him proud.

Religion is definitely with us.

I'm, like, a little out of my element.

You're scared? Or nervous?

-Or what's the...? -[Orna] I don't know!

I feel a little...

potentially at some disadvantage because I grew up so secular.

Yeah.

Like, with Joey, she was talking in a very moving way about how

God has been...

-her friend! -[Eyal] Yes.

-[Mary] Her father. -From childhood!

-It is, it's-- -[Orna] Her father...

So it's pleasing Him.

Her friend, basically her lover!

Mm-hm.

Separating her from her actual...husband!

[Mary] Mm-hm.

[Eyal] But also saving her as a child.

For really religious people,

the relationship with God,

it's like a parent, or even above...

-parents. -[Orna] Yeah.

And for the Korean Church, thinking about Joey's mother,

that's her community, that's her people,

she immigrated, she left her country,

she left her Motherland.

This is something that she can share with her mother that keeps

them connected in a way that may have some good in it.

And if she breaks that, then the mother is really gone.

[Mary] Yeah.

The Church and the community binds.

♪moody electronic music♪

♪I have a story I tell♪

♪About a god who came came to grief♪

♪She made the world so well♪

♪And felt the world was everything♪

♪Her son said to Judas, "I need you to do this:♪

♪To spend eternity in Hell"♪

♪Know♪

♪What your heart ignores♪

♪Falls just like leaves to the ground♪

-[chuckles] -[exhales deeply]

[Josh VO] Maybe we should talk about the fire thing real fast.

Once you told me the fire story, I was just like,

[chuckling] "Oh, everything makes way more sense."

So tell me about it.

I'll try to say it as succinctly as possible.

Um...

when I was in college, it was, like,

a Wednesday night, we were very bored,

everyone wanted to do something,

um, three of the guys that I was friends with and very close with

were from the Middle East, and they'd never had s'mores before.

And so I was like, "Oh, guys, you gotta have this American

experience of having s'mores.

Like, I'll take you to this beautiful place,

I know a really wonderful hike that's incredible,

and we'll have s'mores."

And so it ended up being 10 of us going on this hike.

We were just kids -- you know, 18, 19.

We weren't doing anything rowdy,

we were just having a beautiful time,

it was very peaceful, very calm,

we had s'mores,

the fire was about the size -- if not smaller --

than that book right there.

And then, we stomped on the fire,

we poured water on it, we did everything you're supposed to do

to make sure the fire was out, and we left.

We went home, went to sleep, woke up the next day,

regular day,

and that sunset, in the hills,

we did start to see smoke.

-Mm. -[Josh] Yeah.

So 16 hours later, a fire started in the general vicinity

of the area that we were at.

It burnt around 2,000 acres of land...

[Orna] Oh...

It caused $900 million in damages,

it burned down 215 homes...

Oh my God.

The fire went for, like, six days...

[exhaling] Phoo...

Uh, and then, while I was going into my criminal justice class

to do a midterm,

I was pulled out by two police officers,

and they interrogated me for 12 hours,

and the whole time, I was kinda just like,

"There's no way I had anything to do with this.

Our fire was 16 hours ago!

We checked it multiple times.

Like, we were super careful and cautious.

Like...

people go to our area to have fires all the time!"

Mm-hm.

They actually took me in their squad car with them and the fire

marshals up to the property that we were in,

and they were like, "You put the fire in the best place that you

could've possibly put it."

And by the end of it, I'm, like, friends with these

investigators, and they were just like,

"There's no way you had anything to do with this!

It's impossible!

Thank you so much for being so accommodating!"

And then, they were like, "Hey, is there any way we can,

like, corroborate your story with some of the other nine

people that were there?"

And I was like, "Yeah, of course!

For sure!"

You know, what I thought was gonna be, like,

just a few guys coming with me to go talk to the other

people ended up being, like, the entire department,

essentially, coming.

Separated all 10 of us, took everyone's individual

statements.

And then, they left.

The next day, I didn't hear anything.

The day after, they did a press release saying that they had

found the 10 people responsible for the fire.

After about four months, they released our names to the

public, uh, and then...

[chuckles]

[sighs]

[tuts tongue]

[sucks teeth]

and then...

we went through the criminal court proceedings.

The District Attorney of...

[softly] Gimme a second.

[sighs]

[chuckles]

[whispering] Thanks.

[Josh] So then...

the District Attorney...

[sucks teeth] said...

there was not enough evidence...

[sniffles]

[clears throat]

to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we were responsible

for the fire.

But they had fucked us.

And they had fucked us because the civil court cases have a

-different standard of guilt. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

And that the irresponsibility of the police department...

[sighs]

[sniffles]

[clears throat]

had probably ruined our lives.

[inhales sharply]

[sighs]

So felt fucking terrible,

because I had jeopardized my nine friends...

[sucks teeth]

[chuckling] and these three, like,

Middle Eastern kids, who, like, during the interrogation,

they were like,

"Was anyone in your group like,

'Let's burn down America!?'"

So I tried to take as much responsibility as possible for

everyone's actions, just because I was like,

"Fuck, now these three kids are never gonna be able to come to

the United States ever again, they're gonna get kicked out."

So I was considered, like, the "gang leader,"

this ringleader of this group.

So! [sniffles] [sucks teeth]

The court case finished, um, but then the civil court cases

started, uh, and...

those lasted for about five years,

and I was sued for, like, tens and tens of millions of dollars,

um, and--

So the town basically wanted money.

[Josh] Yeah, exactly.

[Orna] And what happened between the 10 of you -- the 10 kids?

I don't talk to any of them anymore.

I tried to take as much responsibility as possible,

and then I just became...

that person that caused all the damage in their life experience

and inhibited their life.

There was, like, some family issues then, right?

My parents thought I was a criminal,

so I was kicked out of my house.

There was, like, all these other follow-on effects that happened

because of that environment.

-Terrible. -[Josh] Yeah.

There are lots of significantly more terrible experiences,

but mine was-- it's a unique blend of terrible.

-[laughs] -[Orna] What, um...

I mean, one of the themes that the three of you have talked

about is the issue of blame.

Mm-hm.

[Orna] Um...

and I'm just wondering how this particular history...

-[Lorena] Mm. -[Josh] Connects to blame?

[Lorena] Mm.

Has primed you to experience blame in a particular way.

Maybe.

When I heard about the fire, that actually made me understand

a little bit more about the way I feel like you...

orient around blame and taking full accountability.

I didn't, like, understand...

when some of this energy would come up,

because it would feel fast and sudden,

and it would be like-- it felt old.

I think when it's really your anger and your hurt and your

feelings of betrayal,

the intensity of loss feels like a lot.

Like, you're getting up and you're leaving.

Like, our night is over, you don't wanna talk to me,

you're-- my apologies are meaningless to you.

Like, that's what you say.

Like, there's-- there's a huge sense of, like...

I feel like I can do nothing.

It seems...

unsalvageable.

It's unsalvageable;

I think that is actually the-- like, the energy of it.

[Aryn] Yeah.

When people "blame" each other,

a lot of the time, it's not just about that incident;

they might be carrying

a whole lot of history.

And what happens to the recipient is that they receive a

package of blame

that is bigger than them.

[Lorena] Mm.

And I would imagine that this kind of history would make you

very prone to make those kind of...

big blaming...

statements or questions of loyalty...

that make it very difficult to respond to,

'cause...

who can make up for what happened?

[Josh] Mm.

♪pensive melancholic music♪

[Orna VO] I feel terrible for Josh.

[Virginia VO] Yeah! Oh my God.

He obviously has had a very bad experience of being...

thrown under the bus because somebody needed a villain...

[Virginia] Right.

-The town needed a villain. -Yeah.

[Orna] So that's already complicated;

how do you bear responsibility for an entire community?

Right.

And the other nine people who will never talk to him again...

[Orna] Yeah.

[Virginia] Talk about being completely isolated.

He's holding, like, a great deal of trauma,

fury about that.

But then, I think every transgression that he meets in

his partners...

some of the fury from the fire situation gets kind of funneled

into this.

♪♪♪