Original subtitles

[woman VO] Josh, do you wanna be in the middle this time?

[Josh VO] No, I'm not being in the middle ever.

[woman VO] What?!

[woman VO] That feels like kind of a strong thing that we should

talk about.

Oh my God, I'm cold.

Let's do some squats.

-[Lorena laughs] -[Aryn] I might, actually.

This was not here the other day; it's weird.

-Which one? -'The Mole People.'

'The Mole People.'

I wonder what it means that you selected that book out of...

any of the other books.

Okay, what do we got here? What's on the left?

'Just...'

'You Just Don't Understand.'

Oh, man, do I resonate with that book.

[Aryn and Josh laugh]

Lemme get that one.

-Lemme get this book. -Okay.

You guys-- you guys, go onto the other ones.

Aryn, would you like 'Freud on Women,'

'The Art of Happiness,'

'The Ink Blots,'

'Open Marriage?'

Wow, definitely 'The Art of Happiness.'

♪cool theme music♪

♪pensive ethereal music♪

We had the most tumultuous week we've had.

It was, first of all, a scheduling thing about me

getting an opportunity for a, um,

circus gig, but it's, like, near New York,

so I get to spend more time with Josh,

and I assumed that Josh would wanna have more time with me,

'cause I'm spending, actually, a lot of time in Las Vegas.

Just so I'll understand concretely,

this would mean that you would be in New York regularly more

than you were planning to be?

[Aryn] Yeah, two to three days more per week.

Got it.

And I think it's like, that's definitely exciting,

but the conversation around something that would impact me

dramatically was never...

-had. -Mm-hm.

The majority of the conversation was focused on logistical...

exercises and assumptions.

Rather than asking you...

how would that impact you?

Or just like, "Hey, we're a team.

Like, let's sit down and-- this would be a big impact on you.

Like, can we just talk about the ways in which this will impact

you and if you're up for this?"

What are you thinking, Aryn?

I was honestly pretty hurt that I, like...

wasn't immediately welcomed in our home.

That, like, everything you've ever told me

is, like, you want more time with me,

so I was like...

[voice wavering] It felt contradictory to everything that

you've ever asked for.

But you're each talking from your own...

hurt or grievance.

In a way, you're each saying, "Why don't you understand what

hurt me?"

But you're talking about different things.

But shouldn't we be focusing our energy on the beginning parts of

the friction and argument?

I think-- I think that's one way to possibly go.

From my experience, it doesn't really [chuckling] work.

And it doesn't matter who started.

Mm, I just feel like it does matter who started it.

It matters if you're in court.

I mean...

It doesn't matter if you wanna just make things better.

Oh, man, I just feel like, for the person that initially causes

the miscommunication...

But people don't always see things the same way.

Who knows when it started?

It could have started...

half an hour before the conversation even started.

[sucks teeth] Oof...

That's hard for me.

[Orna] I understand.

I feel like, in most of the conflicts that I'm in...

I'm the one that's more clear about the emotional range that

I'm experiencing, and I get that there's, like,

a whole bunch of reasons why that isn't the case for

women in the United States,

-just culturally... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Right?

But Josh, you're getting abstract, and-- and...

-Let's stay a little closer... -Okay.

[Orna] To what actually happened.

What do you think about this -- about this conversation?

Where are you?

I think one of the things that I, personally,

struggle with the most is that I have no point of

real reference of what it would be like to be in partnership

with Josh if Aryn was here consistently.

And I think Josh and I's time together is predicated on Aryn

being busy, pretty much up until really recently;

when Aryn comes home, I don't really see Josh,

or our plans would, like, drop.

And you have worked really hard on...

shifting that or making things consistent.

-Yeah! -And I do appreciate it.

And you've also been so great about that, too!

About being flexible and understanding that.

Yeah, I guess I'm thinking about, like,

a few weeks ago.

That was really frustrating.

We had breakfast plans at 11.

I texted him at 10AM like, "Super excited to see you,

have breakfast, whatever."

Don't hear anything.

You call back and it's like 10 minutes before we're supposed to

hang out, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, no, I'm...

I'm gonna have coffee with Aryn,

so I'm not gonna be able to be there.

I'm gonna leave here in 15 minutes,"

so that means you're gonna show up 30 minutes after we

discussed.

And so that, like-- that kind of stuff really eats me,

'cause I'm like, "What does this mean if Aryn moves home?

Like, does that mean...

I really am just, like...

secondary?

And if so, I really wanna know that so I can orient myself

appropriately, 'cause I'm pouring a lot into this."

What are you...

feeling?

In those moments, I can totally understand and empathize how,

all of a sudden, having the time being slightly shifted --

even if it's a small amount of time --

can be emotionally hard to experience and confusing.

Do you get that it's less about the time thing, though?

Yeah, it's more about the larger part of it...

What's the larger part?

Which is the feeling the secondary -- that your time is

not respected as much as Aryn's time,

and that it can just be moved around...

-Yeah. -With, like,

little consent to you.

N-- no consent.

-Yeah. -Yeah.

Lorena, do you know that Josh suggested changing our

partnership title from "primary partnership" to

"anchor partners" to...

not put you second?

I mean, I -- through, like, context -- kinda understood that

to be...happening.

And I feel like Josh and I, like,

didn't really discuss what "anchor partner" means to us

much, to, like, my own, uh, disappointment a little bit,

but I guess Josh would reassure me that it, like--

it's kind of like a primary partnership but without

the inherent hierarchy. Or is there--

I mean, I think I wouldn't have-- I didn't ever describe it

as similar to a primary partnership,

I think I said, "Wow, we actually --

based on our relationship and how it has evolved --

we actually prescribed way more to relationship anarchy and the

values of relationship anarchy,

and those things are us creating the rules of our relationship

between us, ourselves."

♪moody synth music♪

[Josh kissing]

♪♪♪

In working with people that are ethically non-monogamous,

they organize themselves differently on a continuum of,

like, how much do they stay...

loyal to some idea that there's a primary couple...

Right.

[Orna] Versus what they call "relationship anarchy?"

Ah, they haven't...

I haven't seen that word so far.

As in "everything goes" versus...

Not exactly "everything goes," but, like,

anything that smacks of power and hierarchy

is suspect.

♪♪♪

Josh is living with a bunch of other people,

and then Lorena lives in a completely different place.

Aryn, when she comes into town, stays with Josh.

Each of them have other lovers and other people that they're

involved with.

And, by the way, Aryn and Lorena are not lovers.

[Virginia VO] I see.

♪♪♪

[Orna VO] I'm trying to wrap my head around who my couple is,

and then what does this unit need?

♪♪♪

Mm.

I left my list.

[both chuckle]

I got--

The list of all the great things you wanted to say about me

-in there? -No, I'm snitchin'!

-[laughs] -Of all the things that

I gotta talk to Orna about with you.

[laughs]

Such a hater.

-Is it hate? -Yeah.

[both laugh]

[Mitch VO] Snitch.

"The baby's pampers, you know, garbage needs to be thrown out.

Did you clean the dishes?

Clean his high chair?"

And I'm going through a list with you every week.

If I don't explain to him that these things need to get done,

they don't get done, they fall on my plate,

and I have to now put in the extra hours.

There are certain things I do fall short of in terms of, like,

performing in this relationship.

Like what?

[Mitch] Like, um, anticipating needs.

Like recognizing the garbage needs to be thrown out,

-for an example, and doing it. -Whose needs?

Hers.

That's interesting...

that the garbage is her needs...

'cause it already puts you in a position of...

you're having to respond to somebody else;

it's not yours.

Yeah, because I don't feel a part of the home.

Which I guess, in my mind, that already captures the whole

dynamic that you're here for:

in a way, that Elíana is the one generating the needs,

you responding, not responding,

well, not well.

That's actually a really good way of putting it.

I've never [chuckling] thought of it like that.

[Mitch] Yeah, 'cause, I mean, um--

But you're both trapped already, just by that.

[Elíana] Yeah.

It's very exhausting for there to constantly be that comparison

of just, like, you know, how things go when she's doing it

versus how things are going when I'm doing it.

It's one of those things where it's like,

"Bro, I do this...

-all the time by myself." -[Orna] Mm-hm.

"You can't figure it the fuck out?"

Like, it's frustrating, because if I'm like,

"Hey, I'm about to start studying.

You're good?

You have to watch him."

"Wait, wait, wait, before you go, I'm just gonna...

brush my teeth."

I brush my teeth twice a day.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

So it's-- it's one of those things where--

But you just did it!

[Elíana] What?

I do it twice a day.

-You just compared! -[Elíana] Right!

And-- and when you do it in the way in which you do,

it-- in a sense, it comes off as if...

"Well, why can't you do it if I'm already doing it?!"

But I'm letting you know that I don't know he's able to do these

things, or he's able to be good by himself while I'm brushing my

teeth, which is why I'm asking you,

"Can you do it?!"

And the way you're communicating it to me --

the way in which you just did now --

is not a way in which I prefer for it to be communicated to me!

Do you understand what I'm saying?!

So then how would you want me to say it?

Wait, but what do you understand?

I'm understanding that me...

highlighting [chuckles] the fact that I can do it...

-That you can do better. -[Elíana] By myself...

-Or better... -That you can do better.

-[Elíana laughs] -Mm-hm.

Ugh, hold on, lemme bring it back.

Your highlighting that you can do better is not having a good

effect.

Right. [laughs]

[Orna] That's what we're hearing.

I'm not trying to say that I could do it better--

-But you are. -[Elíana] That's not my point.

-But you are. But you are. -[Elíana laughs]

-And y-- and y-- -[Elíana] That's not my point!

[Orna] It doesn't matter what you're trying,

that's what you're doing.

And when you were explaining it to Orna,

you said it in about three different ways,

in three different examples!

Yeah!

But this is how you communicate!

But it's like, there's an expectation there!

-And-- and-- -Whose expectation?

[Elíana] There is an expectation there...

Who?

For him to be the adult in the room when I am not around!

Okay, let's build a different, um...

-math formula. -[Elíana] Okay.

The end result is...

What do you want the end result to be?

For all the shit to get done. [laughing] Like...

Okay, we're gonna have to negotiate on that end result,

-but let's say... -[Elíana laughs]

"The important shit to get done."

[Elíana] Okay.

I think what we're learning here is that

by using language where you're saying "I can do it better..."

-[Elíana] I don't say-- -"I need an adult,"

-you're... -I don't say these things.

I don't say, like, "I can do it better than you" and--

Yeah, of course you're saying it.

You are.

[Elíana] I'm not saying it explicitly!

It doesn't matter, we all hear it.

We're all hearing it.

[both laugh]

So that method is not gonna get you that end result.

[Elíana] Okay, so what will get me the end result?

I don't know, let's hear.

If you came to me, and I said, "Hey, like,

can you watch Law while I go brush my teeth?"

and you said, "Oh, he'll be fine.

Like, the electric toothbrush will entertain him enough.

Don't worry about it, you can do your thing and he'll be cool,"

I'd be like, "All right!"

And I'd go brush my teeth.

But you follow it up by saying things that are further

-condescending. -Condescending?

-Yeah. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, "Why can't you be the adult in the room?"

-Yeah! -[Elíana laughs]

Do you understand?

-"Why can't you be the adult?" -I don't say that.

-[Mitch] But you just said it! -You just did.

[Elíana] Okay.

What you just said was "Why can't you be the adult in the

-room?" -Right.

And that's how you typically say things!

[Orna] Elíana, the idea is to try to...

have a different internal message.

I understand that you're frustrated...

-[Elíana] Yeah. -And that you want help.

But you've developed, already, a whole language -- a rhetoric --

-in your mind... -Mm-hm.

That is, indeed, based on frustration and on the idea that

you can do better, Mitch is just not functioning as an adult...

Yes.

[Orna] So...

understandable...

that you developed that narrative,

but it's not gonna get you -- any of you --

where you wanna go.

[Elíana] Yeah.

So how do we reframe the whole thing?

Let's do something radical here.

Like, what if we change the whole direction of things?

'Cause right now, the direction is still you want,

and you...

are somehow responding to a want.

Mm-hm, and...

[Orna] Well, what do you want?

Tell me what you want with your son.

I mean, I don't necessarily have any expectations for him outside

of, you know...

raising him to be a good person.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Um...

I feel that, at this point in his life,

she does that best,

and when he gets older, he's going to need guidance,

and at that point, that would be when I

step in as a dad and--

[Orna] What age are you thinking that is good for him?

I don't know, probably around...

middle school, high school.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

What do you think of that?

[Elíana] Your son needs you every day.

It's the day-to-day things now that will allow for those things

to be possible.

I was taught and raised to believe that, like,

raising a kid at this age is the woman's domain.

So--

Can you say something about that?

My parents, uh, they separated when I was 12 years old.

I had a stronger relationship with my father as a kid

than I did with my mom.

When, you know, they separated and, you know,

he went his own way, I was in middle school and,

you know, he wasn't around, I navigated the world on my own in

a sense, because there were certain things that I couldn't

-speak to my mom about. -Mm-hm.

So I see that the father's, I guess,

"time to shine"...

is at that age, because that's the age I was where I felt I

-needed that guidance. -I see.

So that's why you're focusing on that age.

[Mitch] Yeah, so I'm not saying--

So maybe you're kind of taking for granted the early years.

I wanna be a dad that is present...

Mm-hm.

And I don't really know

how much impact I'm having or not having right now.

[Orna] Yeah.

Because I'm not around him enough to really know.

Right.

Look, we have to stop, but let's stay with this.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[Elíana] All right.

Do you wanna try to stay at the house a couple days?

That sounds like a good idea to...

-[Mitch] Yeah! -[Elíana] Okay.

-Yeah! -[Elíana] All right.

Yeah.

-Okay. -[Orna] Good.

[whispering] Thank you.

You're welcome, [speaking Spanish].

-Thank you so much. -[Orna] Okay.

[Elíana] Thank you, have a good week.

[Orna] See ya next week.

♪grooving Latin music♪

[Elíana] Vamos.

♪♪♪

Most people who love you...

fall in love with Tallulah. [chuckles]

Tallulah?

Like, 'cause he identifies as two-spirit.

Yes.

[Alexes] I don't know if you wanna explain it better.

Yeah, so I've always felt a strong female spirit and energy

-inside of me. -Mm-hm.

I was like, "Her name is Tallulah."

Mm.

-And then-- -When did she...

-[Casimar] I mean... -Emerge?

-She had always been there. -[Orna] Mm-hm.

I was just able to give her a name.

Even though I don't know yet how that plays into all of this,

you each told me, in different-- a little bit,

that you're...

complex beings.

Right?

You have at least two living in you...

Mm-hm.

You mentioned that you dissociate...

Mm.

-[Orna] So... -Oh my God, that parallel...

Yeah!

So...

there's a lot of different parts of you trying to be understood,

and maybe contradicting each other.

Pshoo!

♪curious tender music♪

My gender identity and expression just kind of hit me

when I learned about two-spirit.

We're Puerto Rican, and the Taíno culture was super

important to my dad.

"Tallulah" means "leaping water."

I was like, "This is what I am!"

[Orna] When Casimar described to me this two-spirit thing,

suddenly, I was like, "Oh, thank you!

Now I know what's going on!"

'Cause I felt this-- this Tallulah.

Can you say how you feel Tallulah?

It's-- it's like you're talking to one person and,

all the time, I feel behind him...

-Ah... -The presence of another entity.

And then, when he said the two-spirit, I'm like,

"Oh, thank goodness, yes!

Tallulah!" [chuckles]

[Casimar VO] Up until I was 10, I was "Casi."

Casi is my nickname.

And I went up to Mr. Frieberg, and I was like,

"Hey, they keep calling me 'Gay-si.'

Like, they're rhyming "gay" with "Casi..."

[Orna] Mm-hm.

"It's not very clever, but it's hurting my feelings."

[Orna] Mm-hm.

"Can you please start calling me by my birth name,

-which is Casimar?" -Mm-hm.

And, like, there was, like, this immediate shift...

of, like, "Casi," and then there's "Casimar."

[Orna] Mm-hm!

And "Casimar" is, like, this...

protector, this defender, he's the wordsmith.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I needed to defend myself when I was a kid.

'Cause that was at 10; by the age of 12,

I was homeless,

and I had a whole 'nother hurdle of issues,

so Casimar was just getting stronger and stronger

-and stronger. -Mm-hm.

And relating that over to Alexes, this person that I

-created to defend me... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

I'm using him in all the wrong places.

How is it affecting you?

If we're both...

kind of reverting to this, like, protective personality...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

That we've had since children, that personality is like,

[laughing] "I don't care about you,"

-you know? Like... -[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, "I'm protecting my own," you know?

So I wanna hear more of your history,

like get the background.

I was raised by my mom, um...

I have a little sister.

I kind of, like, raised my sister.

Like, there was a lot of, like, us-parenting-ourselves kind of

situation.

Um...

and, uh, then around like nine, um...

my mom's uncle's, um, husband, um...

started to sexually abuse me.

Your mom's uncle's husband...

[Alexes] Yeah, my great uncle, yeah.

[Orna] Started sexually abusing you at nine?

Yeah.

So, I now understand that that's where my dissociation started.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Um...

I started cutting.

[Orna] What age?

Um, probably like almost immediately,

so, um...

So did you...

try to get any help from anyone?

Could you tell anyone? Did you try?

I think around 11, um, my aunt, who lived in Florida,

kind of noticed that I had become, like,

a different person.

Like, I wasn't, like, talking, I wasn't, like,

my smiley self, um...

so she confronted my mom at that time.

Saying "Something's wrong?"

Yes, and then my mom cut her off...

[chuckles]

and I could not speak to her.

Meaning she absolutely did not wanna know.

[Alexes] Yeah.

And that-- nothing happened, that was it.

-Um... -Nothing happened?

[Alexes] Nothing happened, uh...

I didn't go over anymore, but they would still come...

to the house, and abuse still continued in the ho--

in my house.

What?!

So at some points, I was just one room away from my mom or my

sister or...

or my uncle, um, when abuse was happening in my bedroom

or in the hallway.

Um...

That's really unforgivable.

My mom was also very physically abusive at home,

so...

Just nowhere to go.

-No, I didn't have any control. -[Orna] Yeah.

At all.

Um...

which I think was why the cutting was helpful.

-Yeah. -[Alexes] Not helpful but...

Yeah, I left when I was 16?

Um...

It was-- it was a really big deal, um,

to sever the relationship with my mom.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

It was really hard.

I mean...

to this day, she still, you know...

Since I've cut her off, I've seen her, like,

a handful of times?

Like, he's met her 'cause my cousin was married and...

-Yeah, it was wild. -Yeah.

Like, at some point, like, I didn't even know her

and I'm like...

She's his mom, so I'm like-- I know all of this at this point,

I'm, like, trying to be respectful,

and she's like, "He's not well, he's sick,

he's making all of this up."

And, like, I just stopped talking to her, like,

-immediately. -[scoffs]

I was just like, "Aaaand nice to meet you, goodbye."

-And then we went out. -Yeah.

It was wild.

Like, once I had control over my own life,

I never was letting go of that.

Mm-hm.

[Alexes] And I was always very ambitious.

I wanted to...

like, prove that I was not broken.

-[Orna] Mm-hm. -Um...

You somehow found your way out of this maze of

abuse and betrayals.

[Alexes] Yeah.

I'm proud of you.

It's, like, weird to hear that. [chuckles softly]

Well, I'm very upset, moved, and...

carrying this for both of you.

Thanks.

-This is us! -[Orna] Mm-hm.

[chuckles]

♪moody ambient music♪

There's this overwhelming pull that Casimar and Alexes have

on my psyche,

which, of course, it's good --

good to care about the people we work with and-- and...

But this is something more.

But there's some more here.

[Virginia] Yeah.

Like, they're sitting there as their adult selves,

but I think I immediately pick up on...

the children in the room.

I'm a little worried that, when I get kind of pulled into

-a case like this... -[Virginia VO] Mm-hm.

[Orna VO] With that level of intensity...

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] It's kind of, um, an indicator of, like,

savior fantasies that are getting provoked in me.

♪♪♪

♪It's not enough, baby♪

♪Let's keep it hush tonight♪

♪You lost the touch, baby♪

♪I need to see it in your eyes♪

♪See it in your eyes♪

♪Can't take this much, baby♪

♪I need to see it in your eyes♪

♪See it in your eyes♪

♪♪♪

♪It's been so tough lately♪

♪I need to see it in your eyes♪

♪See it in your eyes♪

♪♪♪