Original subtitles

And others are the same.

Only not three.

Not only eight.

Not only three. Me and Doc.

Come on, man. We gotta go.

Defense calls FBI Supervisory Special Agent Gary Nesner to the stand.

As the lead negotiator for the FBI, how many hours did you spend on the phone

with the Davidians?

It's hard to say definitively. Hundreds.

Seems like you got to know them pretty well then.

I guess so.

Well enough to get some of them to come out.

Yes. 35 people came out during the siege, including 21 children.

How did you do that?

Get so many people out?

You build trust over time.

You start small, you give them something. In return, they give

something. You compromise.

Trust.

Was it difficult to build that trust when other members of your team were

cutting the power to the Davidians' home or rolling tanks over their cars or...

using sleep deprivation techniques like blasting floodlights or music throughout

the night?

Yeah, my team, the negotiation team, worked in conjunction with the tactical

team, HRT.

And although our efforts were coordinated, sometimes we took different

approaches.

In that relationship with HRT, would you describe it as adversarial?

But just remember, the ATF's not gonna be around to take the blame this time. I

don't give a shit!

It could get heated, but we always had the same objective, to get everyone out

safely. Now, days before the final raid, you had reached an agreement with the

Davidians regarding their surrender, correct?

David had promised to come out before and never did. It's not uncommon in

situations like this for people to say one thing and do another.

So... The FBI didn't believe the Davidians were going to come out, and a

decision was made to go in.

Who made that decision?

The Attorney General.

In a meeting on April 12th? Sure.

Were you at that meeting?

I was not.

Was anyone from the negotiations team there?

No. Why not?

If you were a team... Why wasn't half the team at this very important meeting?

You'd have to ask them.

But you supported the decision they came to.

To raid Mount Carmel on the 19th.

Leadership felt it was the best way to avoid more loss of life. I'm not asking

what leadership thought. I'm asking for your personal opinion.

Be careful, Mr. Cogdell.

On April 16th, do you remember Steve Schneider asking you for

a computer?

Yes. And why did he want that?

He said it would help Koresh write the seven seals out, and once that was done,

they'd come out.

This is a request you made for the computer.

Is that your signature there at the bottom? Yes.

And the date next to the signature?

April 16th. So four days after a decision had been made to conduct a raid

on Mount Carmel, you requested a new computer for Steve Schneider?

Yes. And how long does it normally take for a request like that to go through?

A week or so. A week.

So you ordered a new computer knowing that it wouldn't arrive until after the

raid?

Well... Why do that?

Why order something knowing that it wouldn't arrive until after the raid?

Unless you didn't know the raid was coming.

I don't recall exactly when I was told about the raid. You didn't know. They

didn't tell you because they knew you'd be against it.

Leadership made a tactical decision. It wasn't a tactical decision.

It was an emotional one. They were getting embarrassed on national TV and

they were sick of it. No, they just felt Koresh wasn't serious about coming out

and they believed they were out of options. Because you failed?

I don't believe negotiators ever fail. We either solve a situation or we create

more time for HRT to prepare.

HRT cited, and I quote, once negotiations failed, we were left with

no choice.

That wasn't my assessment of the situation. They gave you 51 days, didn't

they? That's a pretty long run to wind up with nothing.

I wouldn't call it nothing.

We got 35 people out. And who knows? Maybe you could have gotten another 35

if you weren't running over their cars.

That wasn't us.

That wasn't the FBI? No, it was the FBI, but it wasn't my team.

Oh, so that doesn't count.

For Christ's sake, why don't you just ask it?

Excuse me?

I know where you're heading with all this.

Cut to the chase.

Just ask the question.

What question would you like me to ask?

Objection.

Overruled.

You want to know if it was inevitable, if they were planning to die all along.

So, you should just ask me.

Was it inevitable?

No, it was not.

They were running out of water and resolve.

And I believe without the tactical maneuvers in a little more time, we

could have gotten a lot more of them out.

Perhaps all of them.

Did you tell that to leadership?

I did.

And that's why they didn't bring me to meet the Attorney General.

That's why I was rotated out. Some FBI leaders were tired of the press and the

attention.

The American public was tired of it. Everyone was tired.

The FBI wanted it over at any cost.

Holy shit.

No further questions, Your Honor.

I have one question for you, and I better like your answer.

Why were you in Andy's trailer?

That was yours?

That was Andy's? I mean, I... I was... I was... I'm stupid. I was high, and I

just went into the wrong trailer.

When I realized I was in the wrong place, I left. Is that a crime?

Go ahead and search me. Go search my stuff. I didn't take nothing.

Wayne. We've got women and children in danger.

Wayne. Tell them to pull back.

That call was placed by Wayne Martin moments after the ATF raid began.

Wayne Martin isn't here to tell you about it today because he was burned

alive 51 days later.

Every case, every trial, asks a question.

And it's up to you, the jury, to answer that question for the rest of the world.

I thought I knew what the question of this trial was.

See, I thought the question of this trial was, does the United States

government have the right to attack its own citizens?

It's a scary question when you say it out loud.

But that's not the question.

Because the government already believes it has that right.

The real question that you, the jury, are tasked with answering today is this.

When the United States government comes for you and your family,

with no plan for peaceful surrender, do you have the right to defend yourselves?

That is what's at stake here today.

For you, for all of us.

You were really brave.

Well, I'm a badass, Gary. What can I say?

Do you know what tipped them off to you?

No, I don't know.

Maybe they saw me at Andy's house.

What? Wait, you went to Andy the German's house?

Yeah, I snuck in there and no one was looking. You shouldn't have done that.

Well, I found something, so you're welcome.

He had a notebook, okay, with a bunch of sansi top stuff, a lot of chemicals.

What kind of chemicals?

Nitromethane.

Anhydrous hydrazine.

Anhydrous hydrazine?

It's racing fuel.

And adamantium nitrous ammonium nitrate.

That's it.

Fertilizer. Racing fuel and fertilizer.

That's the same combination they used in the Turner Diaries to build their bomb.

Robert Clank.

Hey, happy early birthday.

What?

April 19th.

Come on up, quick.

There you go I

received

another vision from God

That's wonderful.

Well, I'm not sure everyone will agree with you.

What he's asking?

A lot of people might say it's wrong.

We don't judge you for what he asks you to do.

Thanks, Clyde. That's very comforting.

Clive Doyle, get up.

The verdict's in.

Dad, can I ask you something?

Of course.

Is everything David says the word of God?

Why? Sometimes is he wrong?

David hears the voice of God.

You believe everything he says, even when it's something strange.

All rise.

Has the jury reached a verdict?

We have, Your Honor.

The

jury rules

as follows.

On the first count, conspiracy to murder federal agents. The jury finds all four

defendants not guilty.

On the second count of aiding and abetting the murder of federal agents,

the jury finds all four defendants not guilty.

On the count of using an illegal firearm in the commission of a crime, the jury

finds Paul Fada, Livingston Fagan, and Ruth

Riddle guilty.

What does that mean?

It means you've been cleared of all charges. You'll be free to go in a

couple of hours.

What about the others?

It just doesn't... Your Honor, we'd like to ask the court to

reconsider that last verdict.

On what grounds?

On the grounds that it doesn't make a lick of sense to be convicted of using

an illegal firearm to commit a crime when you weren't convicted of the actual

crime. Well, that's not for us to say. The jury ruled... Hang on, hang on, hang

on. Mr. Cogdell's right.

How can I be guilty of using a weapon during a crime if that crime never

happened?

Interesting legal paradox.

But... I agree with the defense.

I'm vacating the convictions on the firearms charges.

The defendants are to be released.

Are you sure?

I'll tell David.

Take it.

Take it.

George Rodin has been put in a mental hospital because of his outburst in

court.

You know what that means?

That's something you should know. Deep inside of me.

All

we

have to do now is take these lies.

And make them true somehow All we had to see

Is that I don't belong to you And you don't belong to me And

you don't belong to me

God has given me this land and everything on it.

I'll give you all ten minutes to get off my property.

For what?

Or we do this mean?

We're going to live here by God's laws, not by man's weakness anymore.

Those of you who want to stay can stay.

But there's going to be some new rules.

No drugs, no drinking, no smoking, no sex.

If you stay, you stay to study your Bible, to find a new way, a better way.

And if that doesn't interest you, well, it's time you found a new doorway to

darken.

Oh, Jimmy. Hey, Mitch.

I got nothing to say to you. Okay.

Look, I know you're pissed.

I need your support on something. Yeah, well, you can't have it.

Please, just hear me out. You took internal bureau discussions and you

aired it to the world, Gary. You made us look like amateurs.

Indecisive, spiteful little... I told the truth.

You made us weaker.

People don't expect the government to be perfect, okay? But they do expect us to

be accountable.

You think I'm not accountable?

You think I'm not accountable?

You had the luxury of criticizing from the sidelines, Gary.

You got to leave.

I didn't. I stayed, made the tough call, and watched those people die.

And I got to live with that.

Oh, you think you're the only one still dealing with the consequences of Waco?

I still dream about it every night. So do I!

But you know what, Mitch?

I think that's what we deserve.

What happened at Waco, it affected all of us.

It affected the entire country.

And I know you understand what I'm talking about.

We both saw the protesters at Mount Carmel. We saw the increased militia

presence.

And that has only gotten worse since the fire.

And I believe that these people are planning an attack, something big.

And I need the Bureau of Support to look deeper into it, but I can't get it

alone.

I need your help.

What do you mean by attack?

The advantage that we've had in dealing with these groups is handling them one

at a time, sir.

If Gary's right, and we started communicating with each other through

extensive fax networks, there's a real chance they could morph into some kind

of headless terrorist network.

If Gary's intel's good, I think we need to take a closer look. If the intel is

good.

That's a pretty big if.

You're asking me to go way out on a limb here based on the word of an

unsanctioned CIA nobody has met.

Well, I think the intel's good. I trust her. I know you trust her.

But before I go deeper into this, I need to meet her myself.

Okay.

You're going to do great.

So, you're this mystery CI I've heard so much about.

Yes, sir. Nice to meet you.

And how did you get to know this group?

The Aryan Brotherhood.

Well, I was dating this guy. His name was Wild Bill.

He liked to rob banks, do all kinds of crazy shit like that.

But then one night we got into an argument, and he beat me up pretty bad.

I still can't see super good out of this eye, you know, and that pissed me off.

So I narked on him.

No offense.

None taken. We're not narks.

We're feds.

Oh, yeah. That's much better.

Sort of.

So this place, this Elo M. City.

You think they're building a bomb of some kind?

Yes.

There was a bunch of chemicals that could be used to build a bomb written

down in Andy the German's notebook.

And they talk a lot about making the government pay for what happened at

Waco.

Have you been in contact with Wild Bill since he was arrested?

No, sir.

That's over.

So if I told you that I had the phone logs from Arkansas State Penitentiary,

where Wild Bill is incarcerated, would that change your answer?

I might have called him a few times. How many?

I don't know for sure. More than five? Maybe. More than ten?

Maybe.

This Aryan Brotherhood, they just let you live there.

and read their notebooks with no problem.

No.

They almost killed me. I had to run.

Did anyone see this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.

You know, there's been a lot of chatter from groups like these, you know, saying

things like they wish the FBI would dare try something like we did at Waco. Have

you heard any of those people saying anything like that?

I...

I don't know. Not in those words exactly. Did they ask you to tell us

this? Why would they? I don't understand.

To goad us into maybe another conflict. You know, something they can all rally

around. Did they ask you to tell us this?

No, I'm telling the truth, okay?

Hey, Helen, could we have a moment, please?

Come on, what are you doing?

She's been through a lot for us.

For you.

No, for all of us.

She's a good kid if I knew you were gonna berate her like this does not

matter if Everything she says is true if she can't hold it together understand.

Well, I can work with her I can get her to calm down. We cannot afford another

Waco It's over I gave you your

time

They're not gonna pursue it.

Did I screw up?

No.

No, he had his mind made up before we even walked in the room.

You have somewhere to go?

No, I don't.

You know, you asked me once how a nice girl like me wound up in a place like

Elohim City.

Well, it's easy.

They're the only ones that wanted me.

And Gary, if we ever cross paths again, you act like you don't know me.

It's safer that way, okay?

Good luck to you, Carol.

I've spent too long away from home

bit of the things I could have

done gone on the days

of endless love I know that I'm not

Hey, is Jocelyn working tonight? She usually works Tuesdays. The waitress?

Yeah. She quit this morning.

And I was going to propose to her tonight.

Yeah, she seemed cool.

Kind of came out of nowhere.

She begged for the job a couple of months back, then just up and quit.

Wait, when did you say she started working again?

Just after New Year's, I think.

Like January 7th, like when we started working here?

Could have been.

Excuse me, Mr. Condor. Oh, yeah. You have a call up front.

Hello?

Yeah, what's up?

The judge did what?

Why do you say we get out of here?

That sounds good to me.

Wait a sec.

Wait a sec.

What's wrong?

What's going on?

I need to take you back inside.

Your release has been delayed.

Delayed? What do you mean? No, it's over. I said she was not guilty.

Hands behind your back.

So the judge already said that she... No.

No. No, but I'm free. You can't do this. I'm free.

I'm free. Figure it out, Ruth.

I'm free.

No.

I have had some time to reflect, and I believe now I was too hasty in my

initial decision to vacate the convictions on the weapons charges.

Thus, I am reinstating them now, and will move on to sentencing.

Your Honor, this seems wildly outside of the... Please, don't interrupt me.

Mr. Cogden. But you're finding them guilty of a non-existent crime, a crime

that you yourself were willing to vacate. There is no reason to set aside

these guilty findings merely because the verdicts cannot be rationally

reconciled. I'm sorry, are you serious? You're supporting a decision that you're

admitting is irrational?

If they were found guilty of using a weapon in the commission of a crime,

then, by that verdict, they must also be guilty of the crime the weapon was used

in. But they were found not guilty of that crime.

I have made my decision. Take a seat. That doesn't make any sense. I said I am

ready to move on to sentencing.

The only person to

show any contrition was Ruth Riddle, and as someone who was clearly manipulated

by Mr. Koresh, you're not entirely to blame for your actions.

Therefore... I am ordering you to be committed to the custody of the U.S.

Bureau of Prisons for a term of five years.

Five years?

Paul Farah, I am ordering you committed to the custody of the U.S. Bureau of

Prisons for a term of 15 years.

I wasn't even there.

Quiet. I wasn't even there. Quiet.

Livingstone Fagan, 40 years.

40? What? Your Honor, there's no way this outcome was the jury's intention.

They made their intention clear with their verdict. You know what? This isn't

justice. This is the government demanding their pound of flesh.

They can't stand to let our clients walk away, and they're getting you to do

their dirty work.

Another word, and I will fine you $1,000, Mr. Clark. I'm already broke.

You can't get blood from a stone. Don't be so sure. That just cost you $1,000.

People will remember this. This will be the first line on your obituary someday.

Don't you want to be on the right side of this? Another grant.

The next time you speak, I will ask the bailiff to remove you from the

courtroom.

Okay. Okay.

All right. Okay.

Furthermore, Paul Farah, Livingstone Fagan, and Ruth Riddle, upon your

release, you must pay the U.S. government restitution in the amount of

one million...

Oh, that's bullshit.

The people decided this was wrong, that what the government did was wrong. If

you answer that judgment by steamrolling them, you're just asking to have this

happen again. I am applying the law. The law is supposed to be fair. I decide

what is fair.

It is not my job to cater to the moral... It's not your job to subvert

the will of society. Please take Mr. Cogdell out of my courtroom.

Who got to you? We need to be asking questions about how this happened. We

need to question the government.

and the people that made the decisions that led to this tragedy.

Who got to you? Who got to you?

Ladies and gentlemen, my decision is made and my decision is final.

Order, gentlemen.

Hell of a case, wasn't it?

Are you here to rub it in because I'm happy to add an assault charge to this?

No. No, I'm not here for that.

You were a worthy opponent.

Well, that's a nice consolation, seeing as the wheels of justice just ran right

over my clients.

Everything I did was above board.

Oh, really? Even Jocelyn?

Who? The pretty waitress at the bar. Don't tell me she wasn't a spy.

Well, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. But if she was, she

wasn't with us.

Man, what do you want?

I'd like to prosecute the ATF for perjury.

And I could use someone from outside the system to help me.

I might be able to make a little time for that.

You might think that what you see here is a run-down old shell of what this

place used to be.

But your eyes lie to you.

I alone see the truth.

This land right here under your feet, it's not land at all.

It's a doorway through which we will change the whole world.

When I look around at these old broken buildings,

I see the building blocks of one giant house that we will build right here

together.

One giant house that we will all live in together as one.

You believe it, don't you?

You believe it still, don't you, Clyde?

I do.

So now the FBI is sending agents to spy on us as we want?

No, I'm not here for the FBI. I'm here for me.

I care about what happened to you.

That's why I'm here today.

Maybe you could say some words to that effect Okay,

I Was the lead negotiator here at Waco

Sometimes I feel like I never left This

place these events will stay with me forever

Now, I know there may be some of you here today, and there's others that

believe that the FBI came here and just wanted to purposely see everybody get

killed.

We didn't want that.

None of us wanted that.

So if we didn't want it to turn out this way, and neither did you, then how could

it?

When nobody wanted that.

A religious friend of mine proposed once that maybe it was evil that made it

happen. And I suppose he was right, but not necessarily in the way he meant.

Because I believe that the whole idea of evil, it keeps us from seeing a thing

clearly.

It blinds us.

Because...

The evil is never on our side.

It's always the other guys.

I think what's closer to the truth is that we were scared.

And you were scared.

And then we called you evil and you called us evil. And then we both stopped

seeing each other and communicating.

And that's when the tragedy came.

And now it keeps me awake at night worrying that if we cannot find a better

way to remember that even though we might disagree or be on opposite sides

of a thing, we are all fallible people.

I make mistakes, and so do you.

We're more the same than we are different.

A great divide opened here among us, and I'm here today to push against that

divide.

And I hope that each and every one of you can help me in that effort.

Or I don't know what will happen.

Your last meal request any particular channel Yeah

The news

Please

join us for a moment of silence as we told the bell one time

for each life that was lost

Okay.

The bombing in Oklahoma City was an attack on innocent children and

defenseless citizens.

It was an act of cowardice, and it was evil.

The United States will not tolerate it, and I will not allow the people of this

country to be intimidated by evil cowards. I have met with our team,

which we assembled to deal with this bombing.

And I have determined to take the following steps to ensure the strongest

response to this situation.

First, I have deployed a crisis management team under the leadership of

the FBI, working with the Department of Justice.

And cheese.