Original subtitles

BALLOON POPS, CHILDREN SCREAM

BALLOON POPS, CHILDREN SCREAM

In 1964, Granada Television brought together

In 1964, Granada Television brought together

a group of seven-year-olds.

We have followed their lives every seven years.

We have followed their lives every seven years.

They've talked about their dreams,

They've talked about their dreams,

their ambitions

their ambitions

and their fears for the future.

Give me a child until he is seven,

Give me a child until he is seven,

and I will give you the man.

I read the Financial Times.

I read the Financial Times.

Sometimes, we go and play nicely with the boys,

Sometimes, we go and play nicely with the boys,

and sometimes, we go out and argue with the boys.

and sometimes, we go out and argue with the boys.

Do you want to be rich?

Well, yes, because I don't want to be tied down

Well, yes, because I don't want to be tied down

to the dourness of an everyday job.

I think, if you're healthy and have good friends,

I think, if you're healthy and have good friends,

you can get on perfectly well.

What do you want for yourself, then?

Just be content with what I'm doing. To know where I'm going.

Just be content with what I'm doing. To know where I'm going.

Just be content with what I'm doing. To know where I'm going.

And to remember fondly what I've done.

I'd like to find out

I'd like to find out

all about the moon and all that.

all about the moon and all that.

Do you want to take up farming? No.

Do you want to take up farming? No.

But it's a last resort.

I was gonna be a film star,

but now I'm gonna be an electrical engineer.

but now I'm gonna be an electrical engineer.

Aren't you worth more than this?

Aren't you worth more than this?

I'm going to work in Woolworths.

I'm going to work in Woolworths.

I would help the poor, yeah, cos the poor,

I would help the poor, yeah, cos the poor,

if you don't help them,

they'd sort of die soon, wouldn't they?

they'd sort of die soon, wouldn't they?

Well, some people are just born into rich families,

Well, some people are just born into rich families,

and they're lucky.

An education is very important.

An education is very important.

Good education, that's something that no-one can take away.

Good education, that's something that no-one can take away.

Because we've been to private schools,

it's not that we're better qualified,

it's not that we're better qualified,

we've been taught to expect more.

we've been taught to expect more.

They're posh and, "Oh, yes, oh, yes, oh, yes."

They're posh and, "Oh, yes, oh, yes, oh, yes."

They're posh and, "Oh, yes, oh, yes, oh, yes."

They're nuts.

Obviously, if you come with a silver spoon,

Obviously, if you come with a silver spoon,

you're gonna get more attractive jobs and easier life.

you're gonna get more attractive jobs and easier life.

But I think you've also seen

But I think you've also seen

that it doesn't always work that way.

that it doesn't always work that way.

At 7 and 14, everybody was in love with you.

At 7 and 14, everybody was in love with you.

And now nobody speaks to me.

When I leave school, I may want to go to university,

When I leave school, I may want to go to university,

but I don't know which one yet.

What does "university" mean?

What does "university" mean?

Why is it that you three haven't changed?

Why is it that you three haven't changed?

We've all had a stable background with stable relationships.

We've all had a stable background with stable relationships.

You can be born shy. You can be born as an extrovert.

You can be born shy. You can be born as an extrovert.

You can be born shy. You can be born as an extrovert.

You can be someone who likes to make people laugh.

You can be someone who likes to make people laugh.

You can be someone who's much quieter and deeper.

You can be someone who's much quieter and deeper.

And I think that's in you.

And I think that's in you.

But then life happens.

I have had regretful behaviour various times.

I have had regretful behaviour various times.

We all make mistakes in everything,

We all make mistakes in everything,

from parenting to decisions in life.

from parenting to decisions in life.

And that's how you become the person you are.

The years are flying through my mind at the moment.

The years are flying through my mind at the moment.

The future is not maybe as bright as it would have been

The future is not maybe as bright as it would have been

for a kid coming out of university, like me, in the late '70s.

for a kid coming out of university, like me, in the late '70s.

I can't really recognise myself.

I can't really recognise myself.

He looks a little bit lost and a little bit sad,

He looks a little bit lost and a little bit sad,

and I'm quite sort of surprised to be sort of contented.

and I'm quite sort of surprised to be sort of contented.

The moment of pure, unadulterated joy in my life

The moment of pure, unadulterated joy in my life

was when my son was handed to me when he was born.

was when my son was handed to me when he was born.

I have never felt so optimistic,

I have never felt so optimistic,

so just purely unworried about anything.

so just purely unworried about anything.

so just purely unworried about anything.

Real-life TV,

with the added bonus that you can see people grow old,

with the added bonus that you can see people grow old,

lose their hair, get fat - fascinating.

lose their hair, get fat - fascinating.

Cheers!

Cheers!

Every time this programme starts, it says,

Every time this programme starts, it says,

"Give me a child till you're seven, and I will give you the man."

"Give me a child till you're seven, and I will give you the man."

Is that true or false?

What's the point of the programme?

It's... The point of the programme is to reach a comparison.

It's... The point of the programme is to reach a comparison.

I don't think it is. The point...

I don't think it is. The point...

Because we're not necessarily typical examples.

Because we're not necessarily typical examples.

I think that's what people seeing the programme might think.

I think that's what people seeing the programme might think.

Yes. Falsely.

The idea of the film was to examine the British class system

The idea of the film was to examine the British class system

to see whether it was changing, see if it was reflecting

to see whether it was changing, see if it was reflecting

the great cultural upheavals that were going up in the United Kingdom.

the great cultural upheavals that were going up in the United Kingdom.

The most serious thing the programme would be saying

The most serious thing the programme would be saying

is that Suzy's got more opportunities than you three

is that Suzy's got more opportunities than you three

is that Suzy's got more opportunities than you three

to do what she wants.

Let's put it this way. I...

So far, I've done more or less what I wanted to do.

So far, I've done more or less what I wanted to do.

I... Money...

All right, it might have stopped it to a certain extent, but...

All right, it might have stopped it to a certain extent, but...

I mean, it's not sort of... I've not sort of gone around

I mean, it's not sort of... I've not sort of gone around

thinking, "Oh, there's people got more money than me,

thinking, "Oh, there's people got more money than me,

"and I can't do what I wanna do and..."

"and I can't do what I wanna do and..."

It's just complete rubbish.

You live the life you're in. I mean, that's it.

You live the life you're in. I mean, that's it.

♪ Ambiclitella, ambiclitella... ♪

♪ Ambiclitella, ambiclitella... ♪

♪ Ambiclitella, ambiclitella... ♪

Well, I think we're in a...

Well, I think we're in a...

pretty well a classless society nowadays.

pretty well a classless society nowadays.

Even if there's not, I feel there's still a class system.

Even if there's not, I feel there's still a class system.

Even if there's not, I feel there's still a class system.

SCHOOL BELL RINGING

I think you've still got divisions.

I don't think it's class, necessarily.

I don't think it's class, necessarily.

Although, to be honest,

the aristocracy will always be the aristocracy,

the aristocracy will always be the aristocracy,

unless we have a revolution.

And I don't think that's gonna happen.

SCHOOL BELL RINGING

It is them and us.

You'll always have a Tory leader gone to Oxford or Cambridge.

You'll always have a Tory leader gone to Oxford or Cambridge.

You'll always have a Tory leader gone to Oxford or Cambridge.

There is still a working class. Of course there is.

There is still a working class. Of course there is.

There's still a middle class, and there's still an upper class.

There's still a middle class, and there's still an upper class.

But the boundaries have just... blurred now.

But the boundaries have just... blurred now.

But the boundaries have just... blurred now.

I think, obviously, if you come from a monied background,

I think, obviously, if you come from a monied background,

you have a certain advantage.

you have a certain advantage.

But... money isn't the same thing as class.

But... money isn't the same thing as class.

But... money isn't the same thing as class.

Yeah, there is still a class system in England,

Yeah, there is still a class system in England,

Yeah, there is still a class system in England,

but I think it's a lot more blended now, which is good.

but I think it's a lot more blended now, which is good.

And I think people now

And I think people now

who have maybe had a harder start in life,

who have maybe had a harder start in life,

they can now really get up and go.

PIANO PLAYING

If you want to improve your situation,

If you want to improve your situation,

you have to work for it and educate yourself.

you have to work for it and educate yourself.

you have to work for it and educate yourself.

For the average person, education opens doors.

For the average person, education opens doors.

For the average person, education opens doors.

The system now is based on celebrity.

The system now is based on celebrity.

It's based on money, and it's based on celebrity.

It's based on money, and it's based on celebrity.

You can be... You can go anywhere and do anything

You can be... You can go anywhere and do anything

if you've been on a...

if you've been on a...

I was gonna say a reality TV show,

but then I'm really on a reality TV show,

but then I'm really on a reality TV show,

and it hasn't really changed my life.

and it hasn't really changed my life.

Every time this programme starts, it says,

Every time this programme starts, it says,

"Give me a child until you're seven,

"Give me a child until you're seven,

- "and I will give you the man." - Mm.

- "and I will give you the man." - Mm.

I mean, you are the classic example of it not being true.

I mean, you are the classic example of it not being true.

I mean, you are the classic example of it not being true.

You know, your own life went into a kind of freefall somewhat.

You know, your own life went into a kind of freefall somewhat.

The change of you at 14

The change of you at 14

to the change of you at 21, to on a building site,

to the change of you at 21, to on a building site,

was staggering.

How can you explain that vast changing?

How can you explain that vast changing?

I thought differently. I had different aspirations.

I thought differently. I had different aspirations.

I wasn't content with a quiet, domesticised life.

I wasn't content with a quiet, domesticised life.

I had to go out and seek adventure.

I had to go out and seek adventure.

And it had its downside because I hadn't really

And it had its downside because I hadn't really

been well prepared for it in my childhood.

been well prepared for it in my childhood.

'I was a very spoilt child.

'I was a very spoilt child.

'And, erm, my first seven years probably didn't give me

'And, erm, my first seven years probably didn't give me

'And, erm, my first seven years probably didn't give me

'any real introduction to what life was gonna be like.'

'any real introduction to what life was gonna be like.'

In the winter, if you lived in the country,

In the winter, if you lived in the country,

well, it would just all wet,

and there wouldn't be anything for miles around.

and there wouldn't be anything for miles around.

And you get soaked if you tried to go out,

And you get soaked if you tried to go out,

and there's no shelter anywhere except in your own house.

and there's no shelter anywhere except in your own house.

But in the town, you can go out on wet wintery days

But in the town, you can go out on wet wintery days

because you can always find somewhere to shelter.

because you can always find somewhere to shelter.

I slept in a bulldozer once.

I slept in a bulldozer once.

I've slept in bitterly cold huts and on seats and things.

I've slept in bitterly cold huts and on seats and things.

Squatted in London, yeah, I think in two different addresses.

Squatted in London, yeah, I think in two different addresses.

It would be pretty tough to convince most people that what you have here,

It would be pretty tough to convince most people that what you have here,

the way you live, the way you look, is better than a suburban life.

The way you live, the way you look, is better than a suburban life.

The way you live, the way you look, is better than a suburban life.

Well, I don't want to convince anybody - I know it is.

Well, I don't want to convince anybody - I know it is.

See, what I look like isn't necessarily what I feel like.

See, what I look like isn't necessarily what I feel like.

I'm not claiming that I feel as though I'm in some sort of nirvana.

I'm not claiming that I feel as though I'm in some sort of nirvana.

I'm not claiming that I feel as though I'm in some sort of nirvana.

But I'm claiming that if I was living in a bedsit in suburbia,

But I'm claiming that if I was living in a bedsit in suburbia,

I'd be so miserable, I'd feel like cutting my throat.

I'd be so miserable, I'd feel like cutting my throat.

What my background has given me is a sense

What my background has given me is a sense

of just being part of, erm...

of just being part of, erm...

a very impersonal society.

a very impersonal society.

The suburbs force this kind of feeling upon somebody.

The suburbs force this kind of feeling upon somebody.

The suburbs force this kind of feeling upon somebody.

Do you ever think you're going mad?

I don't think it, I know it. I, erm...

I don't think it, I know it. I, erm...

Well, cos we...

We're not allowed to use the word "mad" to...

We're not allowed to use the word "mad" to...

I-I think most people are mad here, really.

I-I think most people are mad here, really.

You see... But then, I think it's a mad world.

You see... But then, I think it's a mad world.

We're in France, where I now live.

We're in France, where I now live.

And this is a lovely bookshop,

And this is a lovely bookshop,

where I spend half a day a week working voluntarily,

where I spend half a day a week working voluntarily,

which I really enjoy.

Fills the week and gives a framework to the week.

Fills the week and gives a framework to the week.

I am still married but separated from my wife.

I am still married but separated from my wife.

The marriage was active only for four years.

The marriage was active only for four years.

Oh, well, it very suddenly ended, and, erm...

Oh, well, it very suddenly ended, and, erm...

I was at a bit of a loss to understand that.

I was at a bit of a loss to understand that.

So, probably years of living on my own, I'd become...

So, probably years of living on my own, I'd become...

So, probably years of living on my own, I'd become...

..without realising it, much more selfish

..without realising it, much more selfish

than I would have wanted to be.

than I would have wanted to be.

I'm not very good with others.

And even the friends who've remained,

And even the friends who've remained,

I suppose that they're only friends

I suppose that they're only friends

because I don't see them every day of the week.

because I don't see them every day of the week.

They're people I can turn to, but I'm not the sort of person

They're people I can turn to, but I'm not the sort of person

who goes around in groups with others.

who goes around in groups with others.

'What did they say was wrong with you?'

'What did they say was wrong with you?'

'Well, I have always had a nervous complaint.'

'Well, I have always had a nervous complaint.'

I had it since I was 16. And it has been...

I had it since I was 16. And it has been...

It was responsible for my leaving university

It was responsible for my leaving university

and for some of my difficulties with work.

and for some of my difficulties with work.

What is this nervous complaint?

Well... it's basically depression,

Well... it's basically depression,

periods of very bad depression, which make it... difficult

periods of very bad depression, which make it... difficult

periods of very bad depression, which make it... difficult

for me to do anything constructive.

for me to do anything constructive.

And it has side-effects,

because when I'm trying to pretend as if I'm not depressed,

because when I'm trying to pretend as if I'm not depressed,

this is when my behaviour can become erratic.

this is when my behaviour can become erratic.

It's trying to act a role which is impossible

It's trying to act a role which is impossible

It's trying to act a role which is impossible

that can make the situation worse.

that can make the situation worse.

But as you know, you can't afford to go around looking depressed.

But as you know, you can't afford to go around looking depressed.

That in itself is bad enough. So, can you lick it?

That in itself is bad enough. So, can you lick it?

It remains to be seen.

I've tried to avoid being caught up in situations

I've tried to avoid being caught up in situations

where I know I'll be at a disadvantage

where I know I'll be at a disadvantage

where I know I'll be at a disadvantage

without trying to avoid the whole of life.

without trying to avoid the whole of life.

I've come across people who've...

obviously had similar kind of problems

obviously had similar kind of problems

and just become total recluses.

and just become total recluses.

And in the end, that doesn't help them.

And in the end, that doesn't help them.

If somebody has a mental health problem,

If somebody has a mental health problem,

it doesn't mean they're odd,

it doesn't mean they've chosen to be weird or anti-social.

it doesn't mean they've chosen to be weird or anti-social.

It's just part of... As much as a person's sexuality,

It's just part of... As much as a person's sexuality,

it's not something they choose, it's what they are.

it's not something they choose, it's what they are.

And can we get to being a society that recognises this?

And can we get to being a society that recognises this?

And can we get to being a society that recognises this?

I'm probably as happy as I could be, given my life.

I'm probably as happy as I could be, given my life.

I'm probably as happy as I could be, given my life.

A great deal more could have gone wrong than has done.

A great deal more could have gone wrong than has done.

I am still quite lonely at times.

I am still quite lonely at times.

But this is a common characteristic of our age.

But this is a common characteristic of our age.

And I don't suppose there's anybody who can really say, "I'm happy."

And I don't suppose there's anybody who can really say, "I'm happy."

And I don't suppose there's anybody who can really say, "I'm happy."

They must be deluding themselves when they say that.

They must be deluding themselves when they say that.

CHORAL SINGING

I think, was it Edith Sitwell whose final words were,

I think, was it Edith Sitwell whose final words were,

I think, was it Edith Sitwell whose final words were,

"It's all been rather good, really, hasn't it?"

"It's all been rather good, really, hasn't it?"

And I'd like to be able to say something like that

And I'd like to be able to say something like that

when I... when I go out.

when I... when I go out.

I would like to get married when I grow up.

I would like to get married when I grow up.

Well, I don't know what sort of boy, but I think one that, erm...

Well, I don't know what sort of boy, but I think one that, erm...

Well, I don't know what sort of boy, but I think one that, erm...

GIGGLING So, erm...

GIGGLING So, erm...

..that's not got a lot of money,

but has got some money, not a lot.

but has got some money, not a lot.

I'd like to be able to have a happy family.

I'd like to be able to have a happy family.

I'd like to be able to have a happy family.

I mean, I know that's not possible, to be happy all the time,

I mean, I know that's not possible, to be happy all the time,

but as much of the time that was possible.

but as much of the time that was possible.

Here, look. Through there, that's...

Jackie was married last year.

Jackie was married last year.

She has decided not to have any children.

She has decided not to have any children.

'Basically, I would say because I'm far too selfish.

'Basically, I would say because I'm far too selfish.

'I enjoy doing what I want, when I want and how I want.'

'I enjoy doing what I want, when I want and how I want.'

And, er, that's not to say that that's a forever decision.

And, er, that's not to say that that's a forever decision.

And, er, that's not to say that that's a forever decision.

Some people can make it work. I just don't think I could.

Some people can make it work. I just don't think I could.

Right, Charlie, there's yours. Right.

Right, Charlie, there's yours. Right.

And please eat it all up. I will.

And please eat it all up. I will.

And James. Thanks, Mum.

And James. Thanks, Mum.

Good boy.

And last but not least...

Gonna eat that one for me?

This is actually a place called Newmains,

This is actually a place called Newmains,

which is about... it's about a 40-minute drive from Glasgow.

which is about... it's about a 40-minute drive from Glasgow.

So, how did you land up here?

So, how did you land up here?

Well, because the boys' dad's Scottish,

Well, because the boys' dad's Scottish,

and this is his home town.

Not long after settling in Scotland, Ian and Jackie split up.

Not long after settling in Scotland, Ian and Jackie split up.

Not long after settling in Scotland, Ian and Jackie split up.

Bye, James.

'We're now living on our own, although he's a regular visitor

'We're now living on our own, although he's a regular visitor

'and sees the children quite often.'

Lee!

'Can you tell me about breaking up with Ian?'

'Can you tell me about breaking up with Ian?'

No. No.

No. No.

I can't. Sorry. Was it painful and...?

Yeah.

And it's not really for public display,

And it's not really for public display,

so I'd really rather not.

But it was a hard time for you?

Yeah, and it was a hard time for the boys,

and it was a hard time for him.

But...

..it's not... I'm just not going into it, Mike, I'm sorry.

..it's not... I'm just not going into it, Mike, I'm sorry.

That's all right.

So, I mean, what are your hopes for the boys?

So, I mean, what are your hopes for the boys?

'It's a bit like having a favourite uncle

'that sometimes you love and sometimes you really don't like.

'that sometimes you love and sometimes you really don't like.

'I have never said, "No, I won't do the programme."

'I have never said, "No, I won't do the programme."

'But as I've said before, there are personal issues

'But as I've said before, there are personal issues

'that I don't go into with him.'

Good work.

'But it didn't stop him trying.'

'But it didn't stop him trying.'

Cut.

'I mean, I'll be totally honest now. I wasn't happy.

'I mean, I'll be totally honest now. I wasn't happy.

'I wouldn't let him interview me at 35

'I wouldn't let him interview me at 35

'because I was so fed up with him.'

'I know there's a question I've got to ask them.

'I know there's a question I've got to ask them.

'I know there's a question that, if I don't ask it,

'I know there's a question that, if I don't ask it,

'the audience will say, "Why didn't he ask that?"

'the audience will say, "Why didn't he ask that?"

'And I know that question might be hurtful.

'And I know that question might be hurtful.

'Now, to some of them, I wouldn't ask

'because it would break them down.

'Others, I think, are more resilient, and I ask it.'

'Others, I think, are more resilient, and I ask it.'

Cheers. Cheers!

'And sometimes they get upset about it.'

'And sometimes they get upset about it.'

Does your temper get you into trouble?

Does your temper get you into trouble?

You're probably the best one to answer that. Does it?

You're probably the best one to answer that. Does it?

I mean, you and I have had arguments on occasions.

I mean, you and I have had arguments on occasions.

Do you think you've settled down too young?

Do you think you've settled down too young?

I mean, what do you mean by "settled down"?

I mean, what do you mean by "settled down"?

I mean, if you think that getting married,

I mean, if you think that getting married,

as far as we're concerned, is a case of going to work,

as far as we're concerned, is a case of going to work,

come home, cook tea for hubby, going to bed,

getting up, going to work, you're totally mistaken.

getting up, going to work, you're totally mistaken.

The whole thing is you're saying... 'I like it when you shout at me.'

The whole thing is you're saying... 'I like it when you shout at me.'

'I'm not sure you do, really.'

I mean, I don't know.

Is it settling down now? You're asking me,

after five months of marriage, have I made a mistake?

after five months of marriage, have I made a mistake?

I mean, God, if I've made a mistake

after five months of marriage, mate, then...

after five months of marriage, mate, then...

I think you're being absurdly defensive about it.

I think you're being absurdly defensive about it.

I simply asked you whether you think you've seen enough men...

I simply asked you whether you think you've seen enough men...

He didn't ask... He's gonna get bolshy now.

He didn't ask... He's gonna get bolshy now.

..to know that you've made the right choice. Yeah, right.

..to know that you've made the right choice. Yeah, right.

You notice he waits till it's on bloody camera.

'What happened at 21?'

You asked me if I'd had enough experience

You asked me if I'd had enough experience

with men before I got married.

with men before I got married.

And I thought that was actually an insulting question,

And I thought that was actually an insulting question,

and I got very angry.

And we actually stopped filming because of it.

And we actually stopped filming because of it.

'And if you look at the tapes of me at 21,

'And if you look at the tapes of me at 21,

'I'm sitting, and to all intents and purposes,

'I'm sitting, and to all intents and purposes,

'I might as well have not been there.'

But I was really angry

that you even thought you could get...

that you even thought you could get...

You wouldn't have asked some of the other people

You wouldn't have asked some of the other people

in this programme that question.

You would never have gone near them with it.

You would never have gone near them with it.

But you asked me, and you asked Sue, and you asked Lynn.

But you asked me, and you asked Sue, and you asked Lynn.

So you tell me why you asked us

when you wouldn't have asked the others.

Shall I answer that? Yeah.

Well, because you married young,

and I wondered whether you were ready to get married.

And I wondered whether you were ready to get married.

So, there was nobody else at 21 that had been married?

So, there was nobody else at 21 that had been married?

That was married?

Well, there are only four women in the film, and...

Well, there are only four women in the film, and...

I'm not just talking about the women, I'm talking about the men.

I'm not just talking about the women, I'm talking about the men.

Why do you differentiate?

Why do you differentiate?

Well, I think I do a bit,

Well, I think I do a bit,

between women's sexual experience and men's sexual experience.

Between women's sexual experience and men's sexual experience.

Between women's sexual experience and men's sexual experience.

And women's, you know...

And women's, you know...

The fear of pregnancy and stuff like that,

The fear of pregnancy and stuff like that,

I think there's more at stake with women and sex,

I think there's more at stake with women and sex,

at least in that period of time...

..when there wasn't the pill widely used and whatever.

..when there wasn't the pill widely used and whatever.

..when there wasn't the pill widely used and whatever.

Well, I think you're probably looking at the wrong era,

Well, I think you're probably looking at the wrong era,

cos the pill was quite widely used, exceptionally widely used.

cos the pill was quite widely used, exceptionally widely used.

I actually believe it was something to do with this...

I actually believe it was something to do with this...

I mean, this programme originally started off on a class...

I mean, this programme originally started off on a class...

it was to see how the different classes -

it was to see how the different classes -

working class, middle class, upper class - react.

working class, middle class, upper class - react.

I remember, at 14, we filmed a sequence -

I remember, at 14, we filmed a sequence -

Sue and I doing drama with our drama teacher.

Sue and I doing drama with our drama teacher.

He was actually a university-educated,

He was actually a university-educated,

intelligent man.

He was there when we did that, and he said,

He was there when we did that, and he said,

"You'll never see that clip in the film."

And I said, "Why not?"

He said, "Cos that's not what they want people to see.

He said, "Cos that's not what they want people to see.

"That doesn't fall into that category."

"That doesn't fall into that category."

And it was right, because it was never seen.

And it was right, because it was never seen.

So, you think it's not that the ideas

So, you think it's not that the ideas

of class in the films has been bogus,

of class in the films has been bogus,

you think it's more that I've misrepresented

you think it's more that I've misrepresented

certain groups of you? To a degree, yeah. Yeah, I do.

Certain groups of you? To a degree, yeah. Yeah, I do.

I mean, I know you had preconceived ideas on this programme

I mean, I know you had preconceived ideas on this programme

about, erm, certain people

about, erm, certain people

and where you thought they would get to

and where you thought they would be.

Would everybody please sit round now, get on with their work?

Would everybody please sit round now, get on with their work?

I don't want to see any backs to me.

I don't want to see any backs to me.

Shouldn't be anybody turning round. Tony, do you hear as well?

Shouldn't be anybody turning round. Tony, do you hear as well?

Tony!

Tony!

Don't turn round again.

So, are there many villains in the East End?

So, are there many villains in the East End?

Er, there has been in the time, I suppose.

Er, there has been in the time, I suppose.

Like, obviously, the originals were the Kray twins.

Like, obviously, the originals were the Kray twins.

We're in Vallance Road now. As it goes, they used to live here.

We're in Vallance Road now. As it goes, they used to live here.

Wherever you go, there's villains,

and whether you mix with them or not,

and whether you mix with them or not,

I mean, it's up to you.

Does it worry you, the possibility of becoming one of them?

Does it worry you, the possibility of becoming one of them?

How can I become a villain?

If it's not in there, it's not born in you,

you won't become one.

I think, what I've learned all the way through

is the less I do, the better,

that the more I let them speak for themselves,

that the more I let them speak for themselves,

try not to lead them anywhere I think they should be led

try not to lead them anywhere I think they should be led

and let them do the leading.

I got into a situation, I think, early on,

I got into a situation, I think, early on,

when I become judgemental about people,

when I become judgemental about people,

that if they didn't agree with my standards

that if they didn't agree with my standards

of success, failure, happiness, whatever,

of success, failure, happiness, whatever,

then, you know, that I would feel they were the lesser for it.

Then, you know, that I would feel they were the lesser for it.

News Of The World about three weeks ago...

Yeah? ..a Pakistani family arrived here.

Yeah? ..a Pakistani family arrived here.

They went up the council and went, "I'm here now, where's my house?"

They went up the council and went, "I'm here now, where's my house?"

Yeah. "Where's my house?"

And if they ain't got a house, they can, er...

And if they ain't got a house, they can, er...

straight away, they can go on labour,

straight away, they can go on labour,

they can get, like, money under false pretences... Yeah.

they can get, like, money under false pretences... Yeah.

..and get in a hotel on the taxpayer's money.

..and get in a hotel on the taxpayer's money.

Thing is... When there's - wait - a poor lady

Thing is... When there's - wait - a poor lady

who lived here all her life, with two kids,

divorced or something, can't manage...

divorced or something, can't manage...

Oh, yeah. ..they've got no house.

But are you gonna blame that onto them?

Surely, you should go deeper than that -

blame it on the whole structure.

The thing is, they're not to be blamed.

Nobody's questioning their moral character at all.

Nobody's questioning their moral character at all.

No, all right. Or their ability to work or anything.

You can't blame that on immigration. Do you sympathise?

You can't blame that on immigration. Do you sympathise?

Or let's put it this way.

Rather them than me,

because I wouldn't want the worries going home.

because I wouldn't want the worries going home.

When my door's shut, I can just go to bed with a clear mind.

What would you vote in the election?

It should be Great Britain first, then any other people second.

It should be Great Britain first, then any other people second.

It should be Great Britain first, then any other people second.

With the utmost respect,

I understand the plight of people coming here,

I understand the plight of people coming here,

but they're not coming from war-torn countries.

but they're not coming from war-torn countries.

Sometimes, I wondered whether Tony was pushing it too far

Sometimes, I wondered whether Tony was pushing it too far

what he was saying, and so, in 56, I just came out with it.

What he was saying, and so, in 56, I just came out with it.

What he was saying, and so, in 56, I just came out with it.

Listening to you, sometimes you sound racist.

Listening to you, sometimes you sound racist.

I mean, you talk about Asian... Racism?

One minute, you talk about Asians, you talk about Japanese,

One minute, you talk about Asians, you talk about Japanese,

and yet here in Spain, you seem to really work

and yet here in Spain, you seem to really work

to integrate into the community.

Well, look, Michael, with respect to you,

Well, look, Michael, with respect to you,

that word, "racist", it covers leaps and bounds of characteristic...

that word, "racist", it covers leaps and bounds of characteristic...

I've never been racist in a million years.

I've never been racist in a million years.

In a million years.

I love people. I'm a people lover, you know?

I love people. I'm a people lover, you know?

And I'm... No way. I think that's, with respect to you, over the top.

And I'm... No way. I think that's, with respect to you, over the top.

Mildly, I'm putting over an interview towards you

Mildly, I'm putting over an interview towards you

how I perceive the world to be.

how I perceive the world to be.

There is an undeniable truth.

Yes, Tower Hamlets, all the East End,

Yes, Tower Hamlets, all the East End,

has changed to the Asian community.

has changed to the Asian community.

Now, what is offensive of me, or racist, saying to you that?

Now, what is offensive of me, or racist, saying to you that?

It's the truth.

But has it changed for the worse because of the Asian...?

But has it changed for the worse because of the Asian...?

I can't comment on that.

So, my father was actually born in Austria.

So, my father was actually born in Austria.

And when the Nazis invaded Austria in 1938,

And when the Nazis invaded Austria in 1938,

And when the Nazis invaded Austria in 1938,

he came over with his mother to the UK.

he came over with his mother to the UK.

He had a sort of basic knowledge of English.

He went to a boarding school up in Hertfordshire.

He went to a boarding school up in Hertfordshire.

Then he went to Cambridge.

Then he went to Cambridge.

And then he joined a bank,

And then he joined a bank,

where he stayed for the rest of his life.

where he stayed for the rest of his life.

My mother was French.

My mother was French.

She lived in Paris during the war.

She lived in Paris during the war.

So I'm actually the son of two migrants.

So I'm actually the son of two migrants.

You know, migration is such an issue at the moment.

You know, migration is such an issue at the moment.

So maybe it's important to say that...

So maybe it's important to say that...

it's not just people coming over in boats

it's not just people coming over in boats

who get put up in asylum hotels, but people who make a...

who get put up in asylum hotels, but people who make a...

who get put up in asylum hotels, but people who make a...

you know, who may be fleeing persecution, like my father was,

you know, who may be fleeing persecution, like my father was,

and make a really valuable contribution,

and make a really valuable contribution,

as I feel he did.

as I feel he did.

I don't know, I should've been a racing driver, you know.

I don't know, I should've been a racing driver, you know.

Do you like the West End, what you see of it?

It's all lights, you understand? Yeah.

But you must have sort of, er, the bright lights where you are?

But you must have sort of, er, the bright lights where you are?

But you must have sort of, er, the bright lights where you are?

I'm not saying not so good...

'I do remember the whole lot.

'I do remember the whole lot.

'I've picked most of them up in my cab.'

'I've picked most of them up in my cab.'

I walk down here, and I can be attracted as much as that.

I walk down here, and I can be attracted as much as that.

PIANO PLAYING

'I picked Lynn, God bless her, when she was working in Docklands.

'I picked Lynn, God bless her, when she was working in Docklands.

'She worked in Bethnal Green Library.

'She worked in Bethnal Green Library.

'I picked Neil up walking along Hackney Road with that walking -

'I picked Neil up walking along Hackney Road with that walking -

'I recognised the walk and the shuffle.

'I recognised the walk and the shuffle.

'He walks three and shuffles once, walks three, shuffles once.

'He walks three and shuffles once, walks three, shuffles once.

'I took him home.

'I took him home.

'We gave him a tea and a ham sandwich.

'And the kids just coming home from school, and it was so noisy.

'And the kids just coming home from school, and it was so noisy.

'And the kids just coming home from school, and it was so noisy.

'It was too much for him.

'He asked me to take him home, which I did.

'He asked me to take him home, which I did.

'Bruce Balden - coincidence again.

'Bruce Balden - coincidence again.

'Not only did he teach in my old school,

'Not only did he teach in my old school,

'he taught in my old classroom.

'he taught in my old classroom.

'And my Auntie Flo used to do his washing and ironing for him

'And my Auntie Flo used to do his washing and ironing for him

'And my Auntie Flo used to do his washing and ironing for him

'in the laundrette.

'It may not seem a lot to you,

'but it's like celluloid going through my mind.'

'but it's like celluloid going through my mind.'

Go on, mate. Jesus.

Go on, mate. Jesus.

You've got all your theatres here. Like, you've got...

You've got all your theatres here. Like, you've got...

'John Brisby. I'm at the airport.

'John Brisby. I'm at the airport.

'He come from Bulgaria, in Terminal 5.

'He come from Bulgaria, in Terminal 5.

'I picked him up. We had tea in a nice china cup.

'I picked him up. We had tea in a nice china cup.

'Met Claire again, his dear wife.

'He paid me £75 for the fare.

'He paid me £75 for the fare.

'Couldn't believe it - I thought he was game for a laugh.'

'Couldn't believe it - I thought he was game for a laugh.'

Now, you're interested in politics,

Now, you're interested in politics,

would like to be a politician.

What kind of things would you change?

What kind of things would you change?

I wouldn't allow any strikes.

How would you do that?

I'd set up a tribunal

I'd set up a tribunal

where people, workers, could apply for better wages.

where people, workers, could apply for better wages.

where people, workers, could apply for better wages.

And this tribunal would have the final word,

And this tribunal would have the final word,

and if it said no wage rise, no wage rise.

and if it said no wage rise, no wage rise.

John declined to be interviewed at 28.

John declined to be interviewed at 28.

He felt satisfied with what he had said in the previous films

He felt satisfied with what he had said in the previous films

and had nothing more to add.

When I was 28,

I hadn't been very happy with the way I'd been portrayed

I hadn't been very happy with the way I'd been portrayed

I hadn't been very happy with the way I'd been portrayed

in the first three programmes.

Years ago, when I first started at the Bar,

Years ago, when I first started at the Bar,

a lot of people who subsequently became good friends

a lot of people who subsequently became good friends

said they instinctively disliked me.

said they instinctively disliked me.

They said they'd approached me with a completely different idea

They said they'd approached me with a completely different idea

of who I was.

'I was made to appear, aged seven,

'as an awful little prig and everything,

'and people I've talked to who knew me when I was seven

'and people I've talked to who knew me when I was seven

'said I was actually quite nice -

'you know, a bit of a dreamer.

'And, you know, you don't see that at all,

'And, you know, you don't see that at all,

'that side of things.'

Stop it at once!

298.

I felt that I had been set up

I felt that I had been set up

to represent an outmoded class system

to represent an outmoded class system

to represent an outmoded class system

that had no validity in the modern world.

that had no validity in the modern world.

I didn't have a relationship with Michael Apted.

I didn't have a relationship with Michael Apted.

He had a sneering and somewhat supercilious manner, and...

He had a sneering and somewhat supercilious manner, and...

He had a sneering and somewhat supercilious manner, and...

I didn't feel he was on my side.

I didn't feel he was on my side.

'Are you popular here?' 'I hope so, reasonably.'

'Are you popular here?' 'I hope so, reasonably.'

Well, I do know lots of people, yeah.

Well, I do know lots of people, yeah.

I mean, are there people who don't like you,

don't like what you stand for?

I don't think I stand for anything.

Well, I mean you... Do you?

Yes, I would think that if someone didn't know you well...

Yes, I would think that if someone didn't know you well...

Yes, I would think that if someone didn't know you well...

You know, you stand fairly wealthy.

You know, you stand fairly wealthy.

You know, you're not short of money.

You belong to the Dining Club, and you go beagling.

You belong to the Dining Club, and you go beagling.

And I would think you stand for those things.

And I would think you stand for those things.

Well, I suppose...

Well, I suppose...

Honestly, yes, there are a lot of people

who might have their backs put up, but, you know...

who might have their backs put up, but, you know...

..not when you actually sort of transcend the impersonal image

..not when you actually sort of transcend the impersonal image

and sort of get to know... the real people.

and sort of get to know... the real people.

and sort of get to know... the real people.

"Fall-out" is too big a... an expression.

"Fall-out" is too big a... an expression.

"Fall-out" is too big a... an expression.

I didn't fall out with him.

If I'd met him, I'd have been perfectly civil to him

If I'd met him, I'd have been perfectly civil to him

and him to me.

But I didn't like him, and I didn't trust him.

But I didn't like him, and I didn't trust him.

Michael Apted wasn't really interested in me as a person,

Michael Apted wasn't really interested in me as a person,

the real me.

He wanted the fake me as a bogeyman.

He wanted the fake me as a bogeyman.

Did you have that conversation with him at any point?

Did you have that conversation with him at any point?

Did you have that conversation with him at any point?

No, because I...

No, because I...

..thereafter was not interviewed by him.

..thereafter was not interviewed by him.

After the 35, I was prepared to come back.

After the 35, I was prepared to come back.

The ice had been broken, so to speak.

The ice had been broken, so to speak.

But I felt I was entitled to say,

But I felt I was entitled to say,

"If you want me, these are the terms."

"If you want me, these are the terms."

I dislike intensely being on television,

I dislike intensely being on television,

and I'm only doing it this time because I see this as an opportunity

and I'm only doing it this time because I see this as an opportunity

and I'm only doing it this time because I see this as an opportunity

to draw the attention of viewers in this country

to draw the attention of viewers in this country

to the awful problems in Bulgaria...

to the awful problems in Bulgaria...

..and in the hope that they may wish to do something

..and in the hope that they may wish to do something

..and in the hope that they may wish to do something

to help the situation here.

And some good did come of it,

because we received one very generous donation

because we received one very generous donation

from someone who'd been moved by what they saw.

There's an assumption that you would have a substantial contribution

There's an assumption that you would have a substantial contribution

to the future of English life, and that's good.

To the future of English life, and that's good.

What happens if you don't make it?

I dare say I would be disappointed.

I dare say I would be disappointed.

But on the other hand, I mean...

But on the other hand, I mean...

when I'm talking about making a contribution,

you would do it at any level.

I mean, you don't just have to be a sort of Cabinet minister

I mean, you don't just have to be a sort of Cabinet minister

to be able to sort of do your bit. You can be...

to be able to sort of do your bit. You can be...

Even if you're the best dustman in Lambeth, I mean...

Even if you're the best dustman in Lambeth, I mean...

Yah, exactly. But is that good enough for you?

Yah, exactly. But is that good enough for you?

Not really. I've got to do some sort of positive good.

Not really. I've got to do some sort of positive good.

At one stage, I had a big involvement

in lots of well-known insolvencies.

in lots of well-known insolvencies.

Enron, Lehman's, Barings.

Enron, Lehman's, Barings.

I acted for years for the Maxwell pensioners,

I acted for years for the Maxwell pensioners,

who were seeking to recover sums

who were seeking to recover sums

that had been misappropriated from the pension funds.

that had been misappropriated from the pension funds.

that had been misappropriated from the pension funds.

Many years' worth of furious litigation.

Many years' worth of furious litigation.

And I'm pleased to say

the Maxwell pension funds were reconstituted,

the Maxwell pension funds were reconstituted,

so the pensioners received their full entitlements to pensions.

so the pensioners received their full entitlements to pensions.

So it was a good result.

I think The Beatles are mad because they make too much noise

I think The Beatles are mad because they make too much noise

I think The Beatles are mad because they make too much noise

and their hairstyle is so bad. I...

and their hairstyle is so bad. I...

If they composed softer music,

If they composed softer music,

If they composed softer music,

I wouldn't mind so much.

I wouldn't mind so much.

Erm, I just loathe their haircut.

Erm, I just loathe their haircut.

'That was John.'

If you loathe the haircut,

you wouldn't have liked Henry V's haircut.

you wouldn't have liked Henry V's haircut.

you wouldn't have liked Henry V's haircut.

From a Liverpool suburb,

returning home from the comprehensive school,

returning home from the comprehensive school,

Neil and Peter.

I don't think you want to go to university

I don't think you want to go to university

if you want to be an astronaut.

Well, I...

changed my mind completely, of course.

Mum and Dad might say "No, son, that's not life.

Mum and Dad might say "No, son, that's not life.

"You don't get a job you like."

"You don't get a job you like."

And, er... I'd like to think I could.

Teachers are undervalued and underrated.

Teachers are undervalued and underrated.

And the whole... the system's beginning to crumble.

And the whole... the system's beginning to crumble.

You know, people outside of it don't realise that, but it is.

You know, people outside of it don't realise that, but it is.

And it's, er...

And it's, er... it's very disillusioning.

Are you surprised by the way England's being governed?

Are you surprised by the way England's being governed?

I'm not surprised with the people

I'm not surprised with the people

who are governing us at the moment, no.

Why? I've even stopped being amazed.

Why? I've even stopped being amazed.

Why? Why?

Why? Why?

Well, I don't wanna get dragged into party politics, you know,

Well, I don't wanna get dragged into party politics, you know,

but basically, this is the most incompetent,

but basically, this is the most incompetent,

uncaring bloody shower we've ever had.

uncaring bloody shower we've ever had.

'After 28 Up, Peter decided not to continue in the film.'

'After 28 Up, Peter decided not to continue in the film.'

'After 28 Up, Peter decided not to continue in the film.'

I pulled out because of the responses and the reactions

I pulled out because of the responses and the reactions

I pulled out because of the responses and the reactions

I pulled out because of the responses and the reactions

that, erm... my participation drew in the weeks afterwards,

that, erm... my participation drew in the weeks afterwards,

that, erm... my participation drew in the weeks afterwards,

particularly in the tabloid press.

particularly in the tabloid press.

They decided they were gonna portray me

as the angry young Red in Thatcher's England.

as the angry young Red in Thatcher's England.

as the angry young Red in Thatcher's England.

I think I was articulating at the time

what a lot of people of my age and my background were thinking.

what a lot of people of my age and my background were thinking.

what a lot of people of my age and my background were thinking.

'And I was an easy target.'

'And I was an easy target.'

'And I was an easy target.'

I mean, I wasn't calling for violent revolution or anything. You know?

I mean, I wasn't calling for violent revolution or anything. You know?

I mean, I wasn't calling for violent revolution or anything. You know?

CHUCKLES

If you look back now, what I would say, it was fairly mild, I think.

If you look back now, what I would say, it was fairly mild, I think.

If you look back now, what I would say, it was fairly mild, I think.

But that's not how the Tory rags saw it.

But that's not how the Tory rags saw it.

They were quite nasty.

And although I thought, although people said to me,

And although I thought, although people said to me,

"Look," you know, "it's only The Sun, for God's sake",

"Look," you know, "it's only The Sun, for God's sake",

you know, "Who cares what The Sun thinks about you?",

you know, "Who cares what The Sun thinks about you?",

it still shook me up quite a bit to see what people who'd never met me

it still shook me up quite a bit to see what people who'd never met me

it still shook me up quite a bit to see what people who'd never met me

thought about me from ten minutes on television.

thought about me from ten minutes on television.

And I think some of that, also looking back,

And I think some of that, also looking back,

definitely had to do with where I was from.

definitely had to do with where I was from.

And you took it very personally?

And you took it very personally?

Yeah, yes, I did, yeah.

There was a particularly dark period I went through some years ago.

There was a particularly dark period I went through some years ago.

It was my then-partner, now my wife, who said,

It was my then-partner, now my wife, who said,

"Love, this is not normal.

"You need to go and speak to somebody about this."

"You need to go and speak to somebody about this."

One of the best definitions I've heard of depression is this,

One of the best definitions I've heard of depression is this,

that most people know at the back of their minds,

that most people know at the back of their minds,

even when they're going through a rough patch,

they know really, instinctively,

that they're gonna come out the other side of it.

that they're gonna come out the other side of it.

The difference with a depressive is that you don't have that.

The difference with a depressive is that you don't have that.

I think it's become easier as I've got older,

I think it's become easier as I've got older,

because I've had more experience of it.

And I know what it is, it's an illness,

And I know what it is, it's an illness,

and I know I will be able to deal with it

and I know I will be able to deal with it

and come through it and get back out of the pit.

and come through it and get back out of the pit.

What do you want out of life?

The satisfaction of knowing...

The satisfaction of knowing...

..that I've left some sort of imprint

..that I've left some sort of imprint

rather than just lived out MY life.

rather than just lived out MY life.

Quite often, I've been asking myself questions... about...

Quite often, I've been asking myself questions... about...

Quite often, I've been asking myself questions... about...

..why I'm here, what am I doing, where am I going?

..why I'm here, what am I doing, where am I going?

I think that's at the heart of a lot of the work I've done, I think.

I think that's at the heart of a lot of the work I've done, I think.

I think that's at the heart of a lot of the work I've done, I think.

'I am now completely focused

'I am now completely focused

'on songwriting, performing, making records, touring.

'on songwriting, performing, making records, touring.

'on songwriting, performing, making records, touring.

'Then I wrote a novel. And I have co-written a musical.'

'Then I wrote a novel. And I have co-written a musical.'

'Then I wrote a novel. And I have co-written a musical.'

♪ The ghost of a cowboy Looked up to the stars

♪ The ghost of a cowboy Looked up to the stars

♪ The ghost of a cowboy Looked up to the stars

♪ Said, "They'll all be here When you're gone

♪ Said, "They'll all be here When you're gone

♪ Said, "They'll all be here When you're gone

♪ "You just keep on chasing No matter how far

♪ "You just keep on chasing No matter how far

♪ "You just keep on chasing No matter how far

♪ "Something that was there All along

♪ "Something that was there All along

♪ "Something that was there All along

♪ "The only thing certain Is leaving this life

♪ "The only thing certain Is leaving this life

♪ "The only thing certain Is leaving this life

♪ "So don't leave it With any regrets

♪ "So don't leave it With any regrets

♪ "So don't leave it With any regrets

♪ "Nobody remembers the miles That you rode

♪ "Nobody remembers the miles That you rode

♪ "Nobody remembers the miles That you rode

♪ "Nobody remembers the miles That you rode

♪ "It's the rider That no-one forgets..." ♪

♪ "It's the rider That no-one forgets..." ♪

♪ "It's the rider That no-one forgets..." ♪

So, retired? No, no! I've... HE CHUCKLES

So, retired? No, no! I've... HE CHUCKLES

I... Yeah, people would say I've retired,

I... Yeah, people would say I've retired,

because I don't do... you know, I'm not a teacher any more.

because I don't do... you know, I'm not a teacher any more.

But, no, I'm busier than ever I was.

But, no, I'm busier than ever I was.

Watch this.

Checkmate.

♪ "Only stop dreaming Get on with your life

♪ "Only stop dreaming Get on with your life

♪ "Wake up

♪ "Now it's time to go home." ♪

♪ "Now it's time to go home." ♪

♪ "Now it's time to go home." ♪

APPLAUSE

APPLAUSE

'Leading a life of fulfilment is so important.

'Leading a life of fulfilment is so important.

'Leading a life of fulfilment is so important.

'And feeling that you're doing that

'And feeling that you're doing that

'and feeling that I'm living according to my own lights...

'and feeling that I'm living according to my own lights...

'..that's the thing.

'And I feel, by and large, I'm doing all that.

'And I feel, by and large, I'm doing all that.

'I'm not happy all the time,

'I'm not happy all the time,

'but I feel like I am where I've wanted to be.'

'but I feel like I am where I've wanted to be.'

'but I feel like I am where I've wanted to be.'

"Look into the world of 14-year-olds,

"their ideas, prejudice and ambitions.

"their ideas, prejudice and ambitions.

"It stands up by itself as a glimpse of contemporary Britain

"It stands up by itself as a glimpse of contemporary Britain

"from a refreshing point of view."

"from a refreshing point of view."

Is that right? What's the next bit...?

Is that right? What's the next bit...?

"It is also depressing to see how class-ridden

"our present and future society is."

"our present and future society is."

'There is an issue over TV and what it does to people.

'There is an issue over TV and what it does to people.

'There is an issue over TV and what it does to people.

'That was my concern with Michael and why I didn't engage,

'That was my concern with Michael and why I didn't engage,

'certainly after 28, because I felt he had cast everyone,

'certainly after 28, because I felt he had cast everyone,

'certainly after 28, because I felt he had cast everyone,

'and they had their role to fulfil.

'and they had their role to fulfil.

'And didn't they know it, in some cases?'

'And didn't they know it, in some cases?'

Cheers!

When I leave school, I'm going to the Dragon School. I might.

When I leave school, I'm going to the Dragon School. I might.

When I leave school, I'm going to the Dragon School. I might.

And Mum is... And I might go to...

And Mum is... And I might go to...

After, I might go to Charterhouse, Marlborough.

After, I might go to Charterhouse, Marlborough.

And what did Charles want to do?

And what did Charles want to do?

I'd say probably scribbling away in some basement

I'd say probably scribbling away in some basement

I'd say probably scribbling away in some basement

for some London newspaper or something.

for some London newspaper or something.

Charles did scribble away for an East London newspaper.

Charles did scribble away for an East London newspaper.

Charles did scribble away for an East London newspaper.

He then moved on to the BBC, where he became a producer.

He then moved on to the BBC, where he became a producer.

Since 21, he's taken no further part in these films.

Since 21, he's taken no further part in these films.

'So, what happened? I don't know.

'My memory of it is that

'My memory of it is that

we were made to sit back in the headmaster's study,

'and this bloke, who subsequently I found out was Michael Apted,

'and this bloke, who subsequently I found out was Michael Apted,

'turned up, and he just chatted to us.

'turned up, and he just chatted to us.

'And we were filmed, and we had no idea, really, of what was going on.

'And we were filmed, and we had no idea, really, of what was going on.

'So, of course, when I understandably gave my mother,

'So, of course, when I understandably gave my mother,

'subsequently, a hard time about this,

'she said, "Well, we didn't have a choice.

' "The school just said they wanted you to do it,

' "The school just said they wanted you to do it,

' "and I think the headmaster wanted to promote the school."

' "and I think the headmaster wanted to promote the school."

'And therein lay the seeds of the problem,

'because we had never given consent.

'because we had never given consent.

'Obviously a seven-year-old can't really,

'but our parents didn't really know what was going on.

'but our parents didn't really know what was going on.

'And I was stuck with two boys who were perfectly nice,

'And I was stuck with two boys who were perfectly nice,

'they weren't mates of mine,

'and I was gonna be forever branded, in terms of casting,

'and I was gonna be forever branded, in terms of casting,

'as part of that group.

'I felt I was different from them.

'And it ended up turning into a long-running series.

'And it ended up turning into a long-running series.

'Well, those weren't the terms of engagement on day one.'

'Well, those weren't the terms of engagement on day one.'

I think perhaps a lot of class differences

I think perhaps a lot of class differences

are exaggerated by people who wish to make

are exaggerated by people who wish to make

capital of some sort out of it.

Yes.

Or by people who, for some reason or other,

Or by people who, for some reason or other,

are insecure in their position,

so they have to empathise their identification

so they have to empathise their identification

with one group or another. And it's...

'21 was quite a painful film.

'21 was quite a painful film.

'Already, I look a bit different from the other two.

'Already, I look a bit different from the other two.

'I think I had a sense, when I watched,

'I think I had a sense, when I watched,

'at being slightly trapped in a sort of situation

'at being slightly trapped in a sort of situation

'which I didn't really feel was me.

'which I didn't really feel was me.

'In 1979, '80, it would have been, I was looking for jobs.

'In 1979, '80, it would have been, I was looking for jobs.

'In 1979, '80, it would have been, I was looking for jobs.

'I decided I had to get on to the BBC trainee scheme.

'I decided I had to get on to the BBC trainee scheme.

'So I thought, "Well, I better go to Oxford,"

'cos everybody seemed to go to Oxford who'd been at the BBC.

'cos everybody seemed to go to Oxford who'd been at the BBC.

'So I went there and then went onto their training scheme

'So I went there and then went onto their training scheme

'and went through the process at that point.'

'and went through the process at that point.'

I think that's right, and it's obviously a worry when...

I think that's right, and it's obviously a worry when...

when people do believe things that, actually,

the producer and director have gone to great trouble

the producer and director have gone to great trouble

to actually faithfully record

to actually faithfully record

are perceived by the audience to be unreal.

are perceived by the audience to be unreal.

'I also just slightly feel that I was working in telly,

'I also just slightly feel that I was working in telly,

'I also just slightly feel that I was working in telly,

'and if anybody could demonstrate the fact

'that you didn't have to be in if you didn't want to be,

'that you didn't have to be in if you didn't want to be,

'it was important that I did that.

'it was important that I did that.

'21, 11 and a half million people watched that programme,

'21, 11 and a half million people watched that programme,

'21, 11 and a half million people watched that programme,

'if I remember correctly. That's a lot of people.

'if I remember correctly. That's a lot of people.

'I used to dread the seven-year cycle.

'I used to dread the seven-year cycle.

'You know, the phone would ring at eight in the evening.

'You know, the phone would ring at eight in the evening.

' "Oh, hello, it's Mike from Hollywood here."

' "Oh, hello, it's Mike from Hollywood here."

'You know?

'I remember Michael turning up in a very fancy car, an Aston Martin,

'I remember Michael turning up in a very fancy car, an Aston Martin,

'I remember Michael turning up in a very fancy car, an Aston Martin,

'at my father's house to talk to me, to persuade me to do it.

'at my father's house to talk to me, to persuade me to do it.

'Obviously, there will be an interest

'Obviously, there will be an interest

'in there being a current photo of me.

'in there being a current photo of me.

'So therefore, the conclusion to that is...

'So therefore, the conclusion to that is...

'is to do it in a controlled way

'is to do it in a controlled way

'and... offer you a picture or two of me

'and... offer you a picture or two of me

'and... offer you a picture or two of me

'doing maybe something, climbing, which I've got lots of,

'doing maybe something, climbing, which I've got lots of,

'which sufficiently misleads people as to how I exactly look now.

'which sufficiently misleads people as to how I exactly look now.

'which sufficiently misleads people as to how I exactly look now.

'which sufficiently misleads people as to how I exactly look now.

'But also because I think...

'..the climbing and out-there world is the next part of my life.'

'..the climbing and out-there world is the next part of my life.'

'..the climbing and out-there world is the next part of my life.'

Are you excited to be a gran?

LAUGHTER Don't know about that!

LAUGHTER Don't know about that!

She doesn't like being called Granny.

No, I will be... I will be Gran, not Granny. Thank you.

No, I will be... I will be Gran, not Granny. Thank you.

MIA FUSSES

Mia was born on the 21st of November.

Mia was born on the 21st of November.

And, unfortunately, on the 18th of November,

And, unfortunately, on the 18th of November,

her grandad Ian, the boys' dad,

her grandad Ian, the boys' dad,

was severely injured in a road traffic accident.

was severely injured in a road traffic accident.

He, erm... subsequently died of those injuries.

He, erm... subsequently died of those injuries.

Unfortunately, Ian never regained consciousness,

Unfortunately, Ian never regained consciousness,

so he never even met her.

so he never even met her.

But he took a photo of her in his coffin.

But he took a photo of her in his coffin.

Phew.

That was a...

..monumental...

..mess.

'The boys were devastated.

'As much as Ian and I didn't live with each other,

'As much as Ian and I didn't live with each other,

'it didn't mean that we didn't love each other.'

'it didn't mean that we didn't love each other.'

I couldn't live with him, but...

I couldn't live with him, but...

I don't think I've ever stopped loving him.

I've moved down to Norfolk.

I've moved down to Norfolk.

Major reason for that was that I needed

Major reason for that was that I needed

to have some peace for myself.

to have some peace for myself.

The sunshine helps, makes me feel better.

The sunshine helps, makes me feel better.

And overall, I think it's just made me happier... in total.

And overall, I think it's just made me happier... in total.

And overall, I think it's just made me happier... in total.

It's not just, you know, one aspect of my life is better.

It's not just, you know, one aspect of my life is better.

This is a retirement complex, basically.

This is a retirement complex, basically.

This is a retirement complex, basically.

There you go. Nice one. Thank you.

There you go. Nice one. Thank you.

Ooh, pull this up.

'I call him Ed, he prefers Eddie. But this is Eddie.'

'I call him Ed, he prefers Eddie. But this is Eddie.'

'We knew each other vaguely when we were really young.

'We knew each other vaguely when we were really young.

'We knew each other vaguely when we were really young.

'Jackie was always playing downstairs with her sisters.'

'Jackie was always playing downstairs with her sisters.'

She said, "I wonder whether you know what I look like?"

She said, "I wonder whether you know what I look like?"

And I said, "Well, I did see you every seven years."

And I said, "Well, I did see you every seven years."

SHE LAUGHS

So that's how we sort of got back into it again.

So that's how we sort of got back into it again.

Since I've moved here, life's been easier, a lot easier.

Since I've moved here, life's been easier, a lot easier.

Since I've moved here, life's been easier, a lot easier.

'I've got a chance to enjoy my retirement, have fun,

'I've got a chance to enjoy my retirement, have fun,

'I've got a chance to enjoy my retirement, have fun,

'do what I want when I want, how I want.

'do what I want when I want, how I want.

'So I think I'm actually living my second childhood, really.'

'So I think I'm actually living my second childhood, really.'

And what are you most proud of?

My children. My boys. And they are MY boys.

My children. My boys. And they are MY boys.

My children. My boys. And they are MY boys.

But, yes, I'm very proud of all three of them.

But, yes, I'm very proud of all three of them.

If I could, I would have two girls and two boys.

If I could, I would have two girls and two boys.

Do you think about death at all?

I don't like to think about it a lot.

I don't like to think about it a lot.

I'm not too sure that it worries me.

I'm not too sure that it worries me.

It wouldn't worry me if...

It wouldn't worry me if...

I walked out tomorrow and got... knocked down by a car.

I walked out tomorrow and got... knocked down by a car.

I walked out tomorrow and got... knocked down by a car.

It would worry me if it was, er...

It would worry me if it was, er...

friends and relatives who are very close to me.

friends and relatives who are very close to me.

That's what bothers me most of all when I think about it,

That's what bothers me most of all when I think about it,

it's not my death that matters to me, it's other people.

it's not my death that matters to me, it's other people.

it's not my death that matters to me, it's other people.

Oi, watch it! All right, then, your go.

Oi, watch it! All right, then, your go.

At 35, Lynn started having blackouts.

At 35, Lynn started having blackouts.

They discovered that I've got these veins

They discovered that I've got these veins

up here that shouldn't be there.

up here that shouldn't be there.

In your brain? Mm-hm.

And what can they do about it?

Not a lot at the moment. They're investigating other...

Not a lot at the moment. They're investigating other...

..treatments. But the surgeon says that, er...

..treatments. But the surgeon says that, er...

..he doesn't want to operate at the moment because the risk...

..he doesn't want to operate at the moment because the risk...

It's too near the optic nerve,

and there's an 80% chance of hitting the optic nerve.

and there's an 80% chance of hitting the optic nerve.

'So, is it frightening to know you have this condition?'

'So, is it frightening to know you have this condition?'

'It was for about a week.

'But, er... it got itself into its own place within my system,

'But, er... it got itself into its own place within my system,

'But, er... it got itself into its own place within my system,

'where... it's sort of amongst my rungs of priorities.

'where... it's sort of amongst my rungs of priorities.

'where... it's sort of amongst my rungs of priorities.

'And I overcame the fear of it. Now it doesn't worry me at all.

'And I overcame the fear of it. Now it doesn't worry me at all.

'And I overcame the fear of it. Now it doesn't worry me at all.

'You look at how you can better yourself

'You look at how you can better yourself

'with your own view of how things have gone,

'with your own view of how things have gone,

'with taking on life experiences and learning more over the years,

'with taking on life experiences and learning more over the years,

'with taking on life experiences and learning more over the years,

'and, hopefully, making me able to develop ME more.'

'and, hopefully, making me able to develop ME more.'

'and, hopefully, making me able to develop ME more.'

I mean, I'm me. What you see is what you get.

I mean, I'm me. What you see is what you get.

I mean, I'm me. What you see is what you get.

I'm happy overall with the way my life has gone.

I'm happy overall with the way my life has gone.

I'm happy overall with the way my life has gone.

CHILDREN CHATTER

CHILDREN CHATTER

I can't find the beginning.

'If I can change in the world, I'd change it into land.'

'If I can change in the world, I'd change it into land.'

'I mean, what do you think is

'I mean, what do you think is

'the greatest danger to our planet?'

'the greatest danger to our planet?'

'From age 13, I've been concerned about us polluting it.

'From age 13, I've been concerned about us polluting it.

'You know, that's been the theme of my life professionally.

'You know, that's been the theme of my life professionally.

'I'm very concerned about what's gonna happen.

'I mean, I'm scared we're gonna have oceans

'I mean, I'm scared we're gonna have oceans

'that are depleted of oxygen

'that are depleted of oxygen

'and full of nothing but jellyfish, and, er...

'and full of nothing but jellyfish, and, er...

'And I'm worried about fish stocks plummeting

'And I'm worried about fish stocks plummeting

'and drought in all sorts of parts of the world.

'And, yes, those things are upon us.'

'And, yes, those things are upon us.'

I don't know if that's why we're getting

all this migration out of Africa, probably not quite yet,

all this migration out of Africa, probably not quite yet,

but I'm very worried about...

..vast numbers of people being displaced because there's...

..vast numbers of people being displaced because there's...

..vast numbers of people being displaced because there's...

their food supplies are in jeopardy.

their food supplies are in jeopardy.

their food supplies are in jeopardy.

Yeah, I'm worried about those things.

And what about yourself? What about the future for you?

And what about yourself? What about the future for you?

Well, I mean... As you can see, I have lost...

Well, I mean... As you can see, I have lost...

Well, I mean... As you can see, I have lost...

I lost 60 pounds in the last year.

I lost 60 pounds in the last year.

I have... I am seriously ill. I have a cancer in my throat.

I have... I am seriously ill. I have a cancer in my throat.

I have... I am seriously ill. I have a cancer in my throat.

I have... I am seriously ill. I have a cancer in my throat.

And I don't know what the prognosis...

you know, I don't know what's going to happen.

you know, I don't know what's going to happen.

So I'm not really focused on the long-term future,

So I'm not really focused on the long-term future,

So I'm not really focused on the long-term future,

I'm focused on fairly short-term futures at the moment.

I'm focused on fairly short-term futures at the moment.

I'm focused on fairly short-term futures at the moment.

I'm just keeping going

and not asking too many questions about the long term.

and not asking too many questions about the long term.

and not asking too many questions about the long term.

'I had a stroke last autumn,

'I had a stroke last autumn,

'and apparently, they asked Cryss numerous times

'and apparently, they asked Cryss numerous times

'if they should just let me die.'

'if they should just let me die.'

I had no idea that I was going to be this ill,

I had no idea that I was going to be this ill,

and I had no idea I was gonna keep living.

and I had no idea I was gonna keep living.

But, yes, I think it's a surprise to my doctors that I'm still around.

But, yes, I think it's a surprise to my doctors that I'm still around.

But, yes, I think it's a surprise to my doctors that I'm still around.

Curious, really.

Curious, really.

Cos it's like, one of them who was saying,

Cos it's like, one of them who was saying,

"It does happen that people in your condition survive,"

"It does happen that people in your condition survive,"

"It does happen that people in your condition survive,"

but made it clear he didn't... as sure as...

but made it clear he didn't... as sure as...

sure as something or other, didn't expect it.

sure as something or other, didn't expect it.

OK

They should train them to be more tactful.

They should train them to be more tactful.

But I don't remember anything.

I don't remember how long this has been going on.

I don't remember how long this has been going on.

I remember being in the hospital,

and they wouldn't let me have a drink of water,

and they wouldn't let me have a drink of water,

cos they said I might choke on it.

But that's... I remember a few things,

But that's... I remember a few things,

but I don't know, I've been...

for the last few months, have been...

for the last few months, have been...

..zooming out to the hospital or to a clinic

..zooming out to the hospital or to a clinic

to have fluid drained off myself,

to have fluid drained off myself,

and that process is really exhausting as well.

and that process is really exhausting as well.

Everybody else has had to just pick up all the slack.

Everybody else has had to just pick up all the slack.

I feel awful about it.

And I'm gonna burst into tears repeatedly.

And I'm gonna burst into tears repeatedly.

And I just... hobble around on my walker,

And I just... hobble around on my walker,

and when I get to the hospital,

they've gotta get me into a wheelchair just instantly

they've gotta get me into a wheelchair just instantly

cos I can't cope. I mean, I can...

cos I can't cope. I mean, I can...

My son wanted to take me for a haircut yesterday.

My son wanted to take me for a haircut yesterday.

I got out of the car, and I took two strides

and said, "I can't do this."

And he just looked at me, he didn't believe me.

And he just looked at me, he didn't believe me.

But I had to get back in the car and come back.

But I had to get back in the car and come back.

I could not get from the car to the... to the barbers.

I could not get from the car to the... to the barbers.

I could not get from the car to the... to the barbers.

And it was just like ten paces away. I was gonna collapse.

And it was just like ten paces away. I was gonna collapse.

And it was just like ten paces away. I was gonna collapse.

'What has been the saddest thing?'

'What has been the saddest thing?'

I mean, right now, I'm... I'm struggling with being ill,

I mean, right now, I'm... I'm struggling with being ill,

I mean, right now, I'm... I'm struggling with being ill,

and I'm very sad for the people who are being affected by that.

and I'm very sad for the people who are being affected by that.

and I'm very sad for the people who are being affected by that.

Are you frightened about it?

Are you frightened about it?

Not for myself but for them a bit.

Not for myself but for them a bit.

Yeah, I'm frightened for them.

Cryss, can I pass you some stuff? Of course, sweetheart.

Cryss, can I pass you some stuff? Of course, sweetheart.

He's been absolutely wonderful, Cryss.

He's been absolutely wonderful, Cryss.

'Oh, well, I don't just think about my illness.

'I don't think about the illness all that much.

'I don't think about the illness all that much.

'In a way, I mean, I'm quite scared of going in for my next scan.'

'In a way, I mean, I'm quite scared of going in for my next scan.'

'In a way, I mean, I'm quite scared of going in for my next scan.'

I think it's kind of stupid of me, really,

cos I spend far more energy than... I would like to

cos I spend far more energy than... I would like to

worrying about what they're gonna find on the next scan

worrying about what they're gonna find on the next scan

and what they'll do if they find something I don't like.

and what they'll do if they find something I don't like.

and what they'll do if they find something I don't like.

But that doesn't mean

that's what I spend most of my time thinking about.

that's what I spend most of my time thinking about.

'I've had this lifelong process of jumping in with both feet

'I've had this lifelong process of jumping in with both feet

'I've had this lifelong process of jumping in with both feet

'into things that were intimidating

'into things that were intimidating

'and that I could easily have said, "No, I can't do this."

'and that I could easily have said, "No, I can't do this."

'And, you know, in the Dales, you just push through,

'And, you know, in the Dales, you just push through,

'and you push through, and you push through, and...

'and you push through, and you push through, and...

'For various reasons, I've just kept pushing through

'For various reasons, I've just kept pushing through

'and trying to do things.

'But the film has helped with that.'

'But the film has helped with that.'

'So, what did you think of it all?'

'Good for a laugh.

'Who was that strange kid with his head between his knees?

'Who was that strange kid with his head between his knees?

'I don't know. What a pathetic character.'

'I don't know. What a pathetic character.'

'Was it... Is it serious enough?

'Was it... Is it serious enough?

'It's not serious.'

'It's entertaining, it's interesting.'

'It's entertaining, it's interesting.'

But what are the serious implications of the programme,

But what are the serious implications of the programme,

do you think? Are there any?

Not any obvious ones.

Not any obvious ones.

Well, I mean, we were talking about my ambitions as a scientist.

Well, I mean, we were talking about my ambitions as a scientist.

I mean, my ambition as a scientist

is to be more famous for doing science than for being in this film.

is to be more famous for doing science than for being in this film.

But, unfortunately, Michael, it's not gonna happen!

But, unfortunately, Michael, it's not gonna happen!

'To me, this is tremendously important.

'To me, this is tremendously important.

'In my life, there's always been another episode of this coming up,

'In my life, there's always been another episode of this coming up,

'In my life, there's always been another episode of this coming up,

'and it's kind of exciting.'

So I'll miss it. I mean, you know, when you guys pack up and leave,

So I'll miss it. I mean, you know, when you guys pack up and leave,

So I'll miss it. I mean, you know, when you guys pack up and leave,

and I'm fairly sure we're not gonna do this again,

and I'm fairly sure we're not gonna do this again,

I think I'll feel that there's a hole in...

I think I'll feel that there's a hole in...

..things that I haven't experienced since I was six.

..things that I haven't experienced since I was six.

..things that I haven't experienced since I was six.

It's been with me since I was six.

'You know how you see this time-lapse photography of a flower,

'You know how you see this time-lapse photography of a flower,

'and, you know, it blossoms and then fades away and so on?

'and, you know, it blossoms and then fades away and so on?

'And it's amazing to see a flower grow

'And it's amazing to see a flower grow

'and then decay in a couple of minutes.

'and then decay in a couple of minutes.

'Well, seeing that with a person is also amazing

'Well, seeing that with a person is also amazing

'because we don't see that.

'because we don't see that.

We're so busy seeing the day-to-day life of a person

We're so busy seeing the day-to-day life of a person

that we don't see the big picture of how they change over time.

that we don't see the big picture of how they change over time.

CHILDREN SHOUT, SQUEAL

CHILDREN SHOUT, SQUEAL

There's teddy bears in that room!

There's teddy bears in that room!

'We've brought these 20 children together

'We've brought these 20 children together

'for the very first time.

'They're like any other children,

'except that they come from startlingly different backgrounds.'

'except that they come from startlingly different backgrounds.'

'except that they come from startlingly different backgrounds.'

'The point of this programme, really, I suppose,

'The point of this programme, really, I suppose,

'is whether or not you can see the man in the seven-year-old.

'is whether or not you can see the man in the seven-year-old.

'What are your thoughts about that?'

Yeah. Still.

Yeah. Still.

For myself, I can still see myself there. I...

For myself, I can still see myself there. I...

For myself, I can still see myself there. I...

I think what I was like then, I'm still the same.

I think what I was like then, I'm still the same.

I think what I was like then, I'm still the same.

Still...

..stilted in speech and...

..stilted in speech and...

..not overly confident.

..not overly confident.

'If you looked at most of us, there are a couple of exceptions.

'If you looked at most of us, there are a couple of exceptions.

'If you looked at most of us, there are a couple of exceptions.

But I guess most of us have probably...

But I guess most of us have probably...

..kept pretty much to what we were born into.

..kept pretty much to what we were born into.

So maybe... maybe that is...

So maybe... maybe that is...

maybe there is some truth in that Jesuit saying.

maybe there is some truth in that Jesuit saying.

maybe there is some truth in that Jesuit saying.

My daughter-in-law said, "You know, since you've retired,

My daughter-in-law said, "You know, since you've retired,

"you've got the sense of fun that you had as a child.

"you've got the sense of fun that you had as a child.

"you've got the sense of fun that you had as a child.

"Because you don't have the pressures of work,

"Because you don't have the pressures of work,

"you're more relaxed."

She actually described it as childishness.

She actually described it as childishness.

CHUCKLES

'Everybody is who they are, or who they were, at seven.

'Everybody is who they are, or who they were, at seven.

'When you saw the first programme, and you saw them in the zoo

'When you saw the first programme, and you saw them in the zoo

'When you saw the first programme, and you saw them in the zoo

'and in the parties and everywhere...

'and in the parties and everywhere...

'Yeah, I think they're the same people.

'Yeah, I think they're the same people.

'We're all the same people.'

Stop it at once!

I was very indignant

because somebody was throwing buns at the polar bears,

because somebody was throwing buns at the polar bears,

despite there being a "no polar bear feeding"...

despite there being a "no polar bear feeding"...

"don't feed the bears" sign, and, erm...

"don't feed the bears" sign, and, erm...

That's again a typical...

That's again a typical...

you know, slightly horrible, bossy little John, you know?

you know, slightly horrible, bossy little John, you know?

Laying down the law. Laying down the law, yes, exactly!

Laying down the law. Laying down the law, yes, exactly!

I've never bought into the idea

that, seven year old, you know, there is the man.

that, seven year old, you know, there is the man.

That's... That's just not true.

'You encounter different circumstances, different people

'You encounter different circumstances, different people

'who have a huge impact on your life. I certainly did.

'who have a huge impact on your life. I certainly did.

'And I think, therefore, you become more than that seven-year-old.'

'And I think, therefore, you become more than that seven-year-old.'

'And I think, therefore, you become more than that seven-year-old.'

As a person, I believe that you're there

As a person, I believe that you're there

in your traits and in some of your attitudes.

in your traits and in some of your attitudes.

in your traits and in some of your attitudes.

'I don't think when you are seven, you are defined,

'I don't think when you are seven, you are defined,

'I think you are there to be moulded.'

'I think you are there to be moulded.'

And that depends on so many aspects in your life.

And that depends on so many aspects in your life.

You need the right people around you,

You need the right people around you,

and if you're lucky enough to get that,

and if you're lucky enough to get that,

then you've got a really good chance of turning out to be

then you've got a really good chance of turning out to be

the man or woman that you should be.

the man or woman that you should be.

'I've given up any notion of objectivity.

'I've given up any notion of objectivity.

'I mean, you know, I care about them all,

'and it's the favourite thing I've ever done,

'and it's the favourite thing I've ever done,

'the thing I'm most proud of.

'the thing I'm most proud of.

'It's nerve-wracking, because you always think you're gonna blow it.

'It's nerve-wracking, because you always think you're gonna blow it.

'And I've learned a lot of lessons about it.

'And I've learned a lot of lessons about it.

'A lot of them had found real comfort

'A lot of them had found real comfort

'in their families and their extended families.

'in their families and their extended families.

'I was of the belief in my life that you can't have everything.

'I was of the belief in my life that you can't have everything.

'You know, that I had pursued a career, I was ambitious,

'You know, that I had pursued a career, I was ambitious,

'and I paid a price for it,

'I wasn't as good a father or a husband as I should have been.

'I wasn't as good a father or a husband as I should have been.

'I wasn't as good a father or a husband as I should have been.

'And sometimes, I thought, "Well, maybe that's my way,

'And sometimes, I thought, "Well, maybe that's my way,

' "and maybe that's the right way."

'But then I saw the payoff that people who'd put

'But then I saw the payoff that people who'd put

'their energies into their families

'and their loyalties into their families,

'and their loyalties into their families,

'that at this age, in their mid-50s, you know,

'that at this age, in their mid-50s, you know,

'they'd got real pleasure and power from it.'

'they'd got real pleasure and power from it.'

'they'd got real pleasure and power from it.'

This, sitting in front of a camera, is not easy.

This, sitting in front of a camera, is not easy.

This, sitting in front of a camera, is not easy.

You have to think on your feet, and sometimes, you talk utter rubbish.

You have to think on your feet, and sometimes, you talk utter rubbish.

But Michael was the calm voice, the calm voice,

But Michael was the calm voice, the calm voice,

and you knew you could rely on him.

and you knew you could rely on him.

He knew us, he knew me.

He knew us, he knew me.

So you could sort of settle into it.

So you could sort of settle into it.

And... Yeah. He was a lovely man.

And... Yeah. He was a lovely man.

Now, Michael Apted, the director best known

Now, Michael Apted, the director best known

for the iconic Seven Up series of documentaries on ITV,

for the iconic Seven Up series of documentaries on ITV,

has died at the age of 79.

has died at the age of 79.

'The World Is Not Enough' by Garbage

'The World Is Not Enough' by Garbage

'It's the first American feature

'by the talented young English director Michael Apted,

'by the talented young English director Michael Apted,

'and it's won seven Oscar nominations.'

'and it's won seven Oscar nominations.'

'He'd developed early-onset dementia,

'He'd developed early-onset dementia,

'which we didn't know at the time.

'which we didn't know at the time.

'When we came to make 63 Up, he was having really serious memory issues.

'When we came to make 63 Up, he was having really serious memory issues.

'When we came to make 63 Up, he was having really serious memory issues.

'And, erm... a year later, he had a terrible fall,

'And, erm... a year later, he had a terrible fall,

'and that aggravated his dementia.'

'and that aggravated his dementia.'

It was a sad thing, I could...

you can still picture him, you know, like...

you can still picture him, you know, like...

making you smile and laugh, although you wouldn't think

making you smile and laugh, although you wouldn't think

that he... as a director, he would be doing that, but he used to do it.

that he... as a director, he would be doing that, but he used to do it.

While he always wanted to become

While he always wanted to become

a big Hollywood film director,

a big Hollywood film director,

he always had a great fondness for this series

he always had a great fondness for this series

and would always come back to do it, whatever he was doing.

and would always come back to do it, whatever he was doing.

You know, and it would have been an interruption to his schedule.

You know, and it would have been an interruption to his schedule.

You know, and it would have been an interruption to his schedule.

And, you know, I'm sorry he's not here.

And, you know, I'm sorry he's not here.

Every time I talk about Michael,

I get quite emotional because, erm...

I get quite emotional because, erm...

..I really loved him.

He was like a diamond out of a jeweller's

He was like a diamond out of a jeweller's

He was like a diamond out of a jeweller's

that you hold in your hand,

with this documentary, and say, "That was the man that did it."

with this documentary, and say, "That was the man that did it."

with this documentary, and say, "That was the man that did it."

It's really difficult. I miss him.

It's really difficult. I miss him.

There are parts of him I don't miss,

but that goes for anybody, I think, you know.

but that goes for anybody, I think, you know.

but that goes for anybody, I think, you know.

He's, erm...

He was one of the nicest, most respectful men,

He was one of the nicest, most respectful men,

as far as this programme is concerned,

as far as this programme is concerned,

that I think could have done it.

He's... He opened doors,

He's... He opened doors,

it opened things up to me that I would never have seen.

it opened things up to me that I would never have seen.

But he could be infuriating.

So, I have to ask you, did you get married too young?

So, I have to ask you, did you get married too young?

No. Michael, you have a nerve!

You can ask ag... I mean, you ask this in virtually every programme.

You can ask ag... I mean, you ask this in virtually every programme.

BALLOONS POP, CHILDREN SCREAM

BALLOONS POP, CHILDREN SCREAM

♪ People say that I love you

♪ People say that I love you

♪ And you know it's true

♪ And you know it's true

♪ If you said that you loved me

♪ If you said that you loved me

♪ What could I do, ooh?

♪ What could I do, ooh?

♪ What could I do, ooh?

♪ What would I do if you left me?

♪ What would I do if you left me?

♪ What would I do if you left me?

♪ What would I do in the... ♪

♪ What would I do in the... ♪

We lost Lynn a few years ago.

We lost Lynn a few years ago.

We've now lost Nick, we've now lost Michael.

We've now lost Nick, we've now lost Michael.

We all started off as a little bunch,

and suddenly there are people missing,

and suddenly there are people missing,

people from the jigsaw are missing.

And that's quite a... You suddenly think of your own mortality.

And that's quite a... You suddenly think of your own mortality.

And that's quite a... You suddenly think of your own mortality.

I hope it doesn't involve too many doctors

I hope it doesn't involve too many doctors

and hospitals and that sort of thing.

and hospitals and that sort of thing.

My ideal would be to...

My ideal would be to...

..break my neck after a good day's hunting,

..break my neck after a good day's hunting,

just as the hounds are about to go home.

just as the hounds are about to go home.

♪ I'll always follow you Tell you... ♪

♪ I'll always follow you Tell you... ♪

♪ I'll always follow you Tell you... ♪

I had one dream when all the world was on top... top of me,

I had one dream when all the world was on top... top of me,

I had one dream when all the world was on top... top of me,

and everything was on it, and I just about got out,

and everything was on it, and I just about got out,

and everything was on it, and I just about got out,

and everything flew up in the air.

and everything flew up in the air.

It all landed on my head.

It all landed on my head.

Death is two things.

Death is two things.

Death is the end of all things, but it could be...

Death is the end of all things, but it could be...

Death is the end of all things, but it could be...

..an open door to somewhere else.

..an open door to somewhere else.

And I sort of like to feel we don't just disappear into the...

And I sort of like to feel we don't just disappear into the...

And I sort of like to feel we don't just disappear into the...

you know, into the ground or into a crematorium.

you know, into the ground or into a crematorium.

you know, into the ground or into a crematorium.

Where does your soul go?

I think probably if you leave behind you...

I think probably if you leave behind you...

..people who speak warmly of you...

..people who speak warmly of you...

..that will do for me as an afterlife.

..that will do for me as an afterlife.

But in terms of the meaning of it,

But in terms of the meaning of it,

well, the meaning of it is to live it.

well, the meaning of it is to live it.

The meaning of life is to live it. And that's it.

The meaning of life is to live it. And that's it.

You have to learn to be kind to other people

You have to learn to be kind to other people

and forgive people, you know?

and forgive people, you know?

For their failings.

And if there's things that you don't like about people,

And if there's things that you don't like about people,

you've gotta try and look for the things that are good about them.

you've gotta try and look for the things that are good about them.

Live the best honest life you can,

Live the best honest life you can,

and then rich yourself and your family with your family life.

and then rich yourself and your family with your family life.

The happier families are,

it just goes on... you know, spreads out, doesn't it?

it just goes on... you know, spreads out, doesn't it?

All I can think is just be kind to people.

All I can think is just be kind to people.

It's coming to an end now. Yes.

It's coming to an end now. Yes.

How does that feel? That feels wonderful.

How does that feel? That feels wonderful.

ANDREW LAUGHS

No, it's... There's a good symmetry between 7 and 70, isn't there?

No, it's... There's a good symmetry between 7 and 70, isn't there?

No, it's... There's a good symmetry between 7 and 70, isn't there?

That's a good time to close it. I certainly don't wanna be...

That's a good time to close it. I certainly don't wanna be...

That's a good time to close it. I certainly don't wanna be...

Another seven years might be pushing it a bit, you know?

Another seven years might be pushing it a bit, you know?

LAUGHS

So it's nice to go out when we're...

So it's nice to go out when we're...

..most of us are reasonably healthy and...

..most of us are reasonably healthy and...

..early on in our retirements.

..early on in our retirements.

You know, a bit like when you're a child,

you have the whole of your life ahead of you,

you have the whole of your life ahead of you,

now we've got our retirements ahead of us.

now we've got our retirements ahead of us.

My life has been great.

My life has been great.

So thank you very much for this programme.

So thank you very much for this programme.

And thank you...

Oh! I didn't expect to get emotional, sorry.

Oh! I didn't expect to get emotional, sorry.

It's, erm...

I'm just glad to have had the opportunity to do this,

I'm just glad to have had the opportunity to do this,

because it is very special.

because it is very special.

It is an extraordinary legacy.

It is an extraordinary legacy.

A part of my little life story,

A part of my little life story,

and I'm a nobody, I'm just a normal person.

and I'm a nobody, I'm just a normal person.

And my little life story's on film forever.

And my little life story's on film forever.

And my little life story's on film forever.

And that's the one thing

that I've taken from this programme, is that...

that I've taken from this programme, is that...

..my story is special because it's been seen.

..my story is special because it's been seen.

..my story is special because it's been seen.

Not because it is special, just because it's been seen.

Not because it is special, just because it's been seen.

Not because it is special, just because it's been seen.

How many other people can say that, that their story from seven to 70...

How many other people can say that, that their story from seven to 70...

How many other people can say that, that their story from seven to 70...

..has been on television?

Nobody. Well, virtually nobody!

Nobody. Well, virtually nobody!

Yeah, so that's what I get from it.

Yeah, so that's what I get from it.

So, it's not about education,

So, it's not about education,

whether Oxford, Cambridge, primary, comprehensive schools.

whether Oxford, Cambridge, primary, comprehensive schools.

whether Oxford, Cambridge, primary, comprehensive schools.

It's about what life's got to offer.

It's about what life's got to offer.

I think it's now, it's...

I think it's now, it's...

it's a film about...

..living a human life.

Ooh!

For me, personally, what a life,

For me, personally, what a life,

what experiences it's given me.

what experiences it's given me.

Cos... I've loved it, I've loved it.

Cos... I've loved it, I've loved it.

CHUCKLES

And with that, I'm saying done, finished, over.

And with that, I'm saying done, finished, over.

And with that, I'm saying done, finished, over.

Thank you.

Ooh, Jesus, I don't believe I did that. Ooh!

Ooh, Jesus, I don't believe I did that. Ooh!

Ooh, Jesus, I don't believe I did that. Ooh!

Oof!

Oof! I need a bloody gin. LAUGHS

Oof! I need a bloody gin. LAUGHS

Woohoo!

Woohoo!

'At the end of their very special day in London,

'At the end of their very special day in London,

'we took our children to an adventure playground,

'we took our children to an adventure playground,

'where they could do just what they liked.

'where they could do just what they liked.

'Those from a children's home set about building a house.

'Those from a children's home set about building a house.

'Paul...

'..and Symon.

'There's Nicholas...

'..and Tony.

'Andrew...

'..John...

'..and Bruce.

'Jackie and her friends.

'Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man.

'Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man.

'Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man.

'This has been a glimpse of Britain's future.'

'This has been a glimpse of Britain's future.'

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