Original subtitles

We are in San Diego. We are at the little rental that we have down here,

which has been a really nice port in the storm.

Yeah, so we've started documenting Liz's life right now.

people kind of constantly around us starting to capture these moments

because what we're going through right now well i mean at its simplest level i

feel like the reason why liz has been turned into this monster is because

nobody knows who she is right and like in absence of knowing somebody it's

really easy to make them feel other and scary like it's easy to build up this

myth around who the person is when you don't know who they are so we've kind of

made the decision that the best way for people to understand who she is is by

just giving like radical transparency and, you know, as much access as

possible into our daily lives.

Everything from like, you know, putting the kids to sleep to, you know,

what we're building and everything in between.

It is 120 nanometers.

But we don't even, you know, these are irrelevant to our human system.

Like, we're like, you know, infections of frog embryos and stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So, like,

you know, I didn't... Yeah, I just want to show that it works. The magic show.

I want you to show me that it works.

And, my love, you said small molecules, but you think so? Brilliant.

Wait, is what though? of the counts associated with the charges on patients

and patient testing, and I don't have any money. I'm deeply in debt for

the legal fees associated with my criminal case, but I do want the ability

to defend myself and would ask for your consideration in that.

Thank you Our work is in

able to make

testing works.

Elizabeth Holmes built her company Theranos on this invention she called

the iPod of healthcare, a miniaturized blood analyzer that would disrupt the

$60 billion lab testing industry. It was, she claimed, quote, the most

important thing humanity has ever built. And Elizabeth Holmes became the youngest

self-made female billionaire in the world. She was also at the center of a

massive multi-year fraud. Each day I greet the sun.

And the earth got trees.

She's like, I train my body for battle.

And I train my mind too.

From ABC Audio, this is The Dropout. Elizabeth Holmes on trial.

You said that Ms. Holmes was manipulative. What do you mean by that?

You had these older men around her that she manipulated.

She just let this man on. She had a job.

I think she's really good at telling you what you need to hear to keep going.

She's pathological.

She told everyone that that worked and it didn't work at all. They

really

run this company as a couple and they

perpetrate this fraud as a couple. Prosecutors say he and Elizabeth Holmes

are partners in virtually everything.

Technology did not work. She was convicted on four counts of fraud for

defrauding a sister.

She was not found guilty of fraud.

Miss Holmes has

not spoken to the media since 2016.

Her trajectory launched a cottage industry of podcasts, TV shows,

Halloween costumes, and the actress Amanda Seyfried's Emmy Award-winning

turn as Miss Holmes.

In the Hulus, the dropout.

The black turtlenecks, the kabuki red lipstick, the green juices, the dancing

to Lil Wayne.

Somewhere along the way, Miss Holmes says, the person, whoever that is, got

lost. At one point, I tell her that I heard Jennifer Lawrence had pulled out

after crying her in a movie. She replied almost reflectively, you're not playing

me, you're playing a character I created.

That seems like another thing that you would never say in a million years.

We would never say a character I created. Probably something they

created.

We should probably just tell them a little stuff that I didn't say.

Yeah, I mean, we have recordings of a lot of it. Like, 90% of the stuff that's

quoted in here we recorded.

Do you do that with me?

No.

Not yet.

It's probably a good idea.

The way in which they use words. We should probably talk to Glen and Lisa

just about, like, what it means.

i mean we need to go back on a few of these things because it's just like

factually inaccurate

The world believes a reality about me that

isn't true. And so what is the reality?

and how did we get here where all these people believe these things it didn't

happen how did that happen but you didn't commit any crime you think

i i know i didn't commit any crime

can i tell you a little bit of an

insecurity of mine okay i read that

you asked um general mattis to be on the board of your company

and you know he's a military guy but he's not a science guy

so part of me maybe is a little insecure that you look at me as someone

who is uneducated on science and scientific

things so i can't question you in a way that another person who is uh would

So why me?

I think we've been thinking about this first and foremost as a human story.

Because you could have gone to science reporters and investigative, but you

didn't. Because what?

Do they suck or do you think they suck or something?

I don't actually at all. Okay, I don't know.

I mean, to me, the purpose of this was not to litigate the science.

Although I really hope people look at the testimony in the case and all the

documents that support that.

It starts with who I am and what my intent

was and still is.

I do want to say to you for just full transparency, I have read a lot about...

um theranos and you and you know i do believe there is a lot of evidence

that points to the fact that you defrauded investors and

also deceived um you know regulators and uh the public

and and patients and um were involved in conspiracy

too

I look, I mean, I understand what people have said about me.

And I understand that people believe those things.

All I know is my truth and

my

love for my family.

taken away from them.

Do you want like a tissue or something? Hold on.

I'm going to need to put a pin in that.

Okay. Because it's 1220 now.

You have a ton of calls that you need to do.

I don't want to speak for you.

So

what

do you think you guys want to film next?

Well, I was planning to go work out.

If you'd like to come and do that.

Pick your piece wisely.

What is this again? It's a pink pineapple.

In talking to Liz, it sounded like the vision she had with Theranos hasn't

died. Is this just kind of like a random thought or are there plans for this?

No, there's not just plans, but there's plans in the works.

taken a lot of the first steps to make this happen.

Um, and as it relates to her, her intention with this,

she hasn't stopped talking about it since when I met her.

Wow. The idea is to put the band back together and do it all again.

You know, we're committed to the cause.

2.0, you know, there's 1.0, which was the first version

And it's the second generation of the same idea.

Theranos 2.0. Yeah.

What is up first for you guys tomorrow?

We've got a 9.20 appointment for Ivy.

And we typically don't like going on the weekends because on the weekends there's

like a million people. So it's Friday morning. What day were you thinking the

bonfire?

I haven't thought that through yet. I was going to call my brother and see

what his availability is.

Okay. One conversation that we had yesterday with somebody.

with the guy who brought us to the studio yesterday, is that

he said that he would be very willing to speak with you on camera,

but obscuring his identity. Why did you take the eggs over? What was she doing

wrong with mixing the eggs?

I just wanted to help her so she could focus on talking to you.

Okay. What I was doing wrong is he doesn't think that I'm mixing them

vigorously enough. She does it like this. She does it very lightly.

the eggs don't taste as good because you just really want to make sure that

they're well stirred she's got it she's got it thank you

How did you two meet?

We met at a friend's party on October 7th, 2017.

And, um... Yeah, we just...

Sorry, I got distracted.

By what?

Just a thought.

What's the thought?

I was trying to think back to that moment, and I was just... I don't know.

There's so many things that went through my head in that moment.

Like when you met her? Yeah. Like what?

Well, first I didn't know who she was.

But you, did you know who she was in general? Like, did you know who

Elizabeth Holmes was at that time?

I did. Yeah. I mean, I was working in Silicon Valley and I had just toured her

building the week before.

Uh-huh. Because we were looking at renting her building.

So, like, I knew exactly who she was. I'd read a lot of the same media that

everybody else had. So how did you not recognize her?

She was, like, wearing a big hat and sunglasses, and she had, like, a Band

-Aid on her face.

So I didn't know who she was. Why a Band-Aid? I had just gotten a Husky, and

he'd scratched my face.

He was a puppy, and I had this cut on my face. So that may have also been part of

the idea with the sunglasses.

was it love at first sight i think for me it was really i don't know yeah i was

like very flirtated i was trying to be flirtation you were yeah definitely what

do you like when you flirt i just i didn't know what to say to him so i was

just kind of staring at him so is that your technique you like hold eye contact

yeah yeah and when i started talking and very quickly

kind of like everything else ceased to exist like it was just the two of us you

know when you're in a conversation with somebody and there's other people around

but it really just becomes the two of you i mean at the time in 2017 there was

a lot of bad news about theranos it was only bad news and you just didn't know

who she was no idea yeah when did you realize maybe an hour into talking and

what did you say that made you realize something about giving people access to

health care which made me kind of realize our testing and diagnostics oh

that's who this is it was super fast it went from zero to 100

really quickly i mean the first time that he started talking about spending

our life together i thought he was kidding and i asked him about 30 times

if he was serious because i was like are you do you mean that do you feel like it

would have gone in the same direction with you guys if he knew from the very

start it was you as opposed to

I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe not.

I mean, the bias is so strong.

I fell in love in that first conversation.

Before or after she revealed she was the founder of Theranos?

Probably before.

Okay.

So you fell in love in a few minutes, so then you were stuck? Yeah, and maybe in

an hour. It was just there. It was clear.

You couldn't even see her face, though.

Yeah, I guess that wasn't what mattered to me.

Like, you're a very handsome man.

You're an attractive guy.

I'm sure you're popular with women, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I like women.

I know you like them, but, like, I'm sure... Yeah, I was dating other people

at the same time I met Liz.

You were?

Yeah. How many?

Nobody too seriously. Maybe three people.

And then you meet Liz.

Yeah. And she gets indicted for a crime. Yeah. And you are choosing at that point

to be like, okay, this is what I want for my life.

Yeah.

Why?

I think which speaks to how much I love her.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I mean, weren't you worried she was sort of, like, scamming you?

100%. 100%. But what did she have to gain from me?

Well, isn't your family rich?

Yeah, I think that there's, like, a lot of different levels of wealth, right?

Okay. And I think I certainly come from a family that has done well, but...

level of wealth you should you should no i'm not going to answer that question

more your parents is that where the money is or i mean they've built a

business you gotta go okay it's 5 30.

my cousin's thing started at 5 15. oh okay sorry i didn't know um

How do you decide what to put in and what to leave out?

Right now I'm putting everything in and then I'll cut once I

sort of see it all together and how it fits together.

Did you write about signing at all?

I did.

It's a big part of my life.

guys together?

Almost 12 years.

Wow.

What was Sonny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer of the company and the vice

chairman of the board.

And what was your role?

I was the CEO and the chairman of the board.

I believed in him because I thought he was the best in the world at what he was

doing.

But I know that I didn't question

him in the way that I otherwise would have had that relationship not

been in place.

An overly trusting person.

For sure.

But I think that's the best way to build the relationships that are successful

ones, because I think if you start from a place of complete trust, then if it is

going to be a good relationship, it will be that much stronger because of it.

That's a really nice philosophy.

That's how Billy and I met and built the relationship that we have.

Two, three, I got it. One, come on.

Come on, man. One,

two, three.

do things get lost like how are you where you are right now i don't i

don't know i what's your best guess i mean if you're you feel

like everything that you did was above board and you operated in good faith and

do you feel like your legal team you know their advice has led you to this

point

No, I think they've put their hearts and souls into fighting it.

And they're still fighting.

So who messed up then in this process?

I wish I knew.

I don't know. I don't feel like I understand that.

Do you think that's part of the reason why people can't come around to you is

because they feel like you're not admitting to the things that you did?

Probably. Yeah.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel?

makes it hard to stand up for the truth, but I would never be able to live with

myself if I didn't.

What do you feel like is the hardest thing for you to do

emotionally?

What do you mean?

Like, when it comes to emotions.

What's the hardest thing for you?

It took me a really long time to be okay with

letting someone see me cry.

At a high level, the New York Times is unwilling to change the, I created a

character. Even though we told them, like, look, we've got all these tapes.

It wasn't said anywhere.

And they feel strongly that she took sufficient notes to cover that. But they

don't have, like, they haven't come back saying, well, here's the place that you

said it. Or this, like, we have any recording of this.

They just say that they stand by their reporting.

Let Liz describe it to you.

Do they have proof you said it?

I don't know. I know that we, as she would speak with us, we would record the

conversations too, because that's what our comms person said to do. Yeah, yeah.

But we don't have any recording of me saying, I created a character.

You should find out if there's a recording.

We don't. Come on. Okay.

Sorry. To be continued. Okay, to be continued. Because I do, okay. I want to

ask, just because the thing that, I know it's such a small thing, the New York

Times thing, but the reason I'm so interested is because if you...

didn't say this it really shows the narrative of people trying to make me

into that turn you into that but if you did say it it speaks to the fact that

maybe you don't recall some things that you've said or done yeah so the answer

to this question feels very relevant for sure yeah my process was my memory and

then reviewing all our tapes and confirming yeah and then following up

based on that

Okay, yeah, I know you have to go, so anyways.

Can we continue? Okay, great, thanks.

Yeah, they're sort of filming the screen as it was writing, so I know it's like

trying to hide the sections that I'm not sure if I want to include or not.

Not film the screen.

No.

Listen, you've got to fucking stand up for yourself, okay?

This whole thing is about whether I'm an honest and transparent person.

I mean, just to be clear, this person has no deep experience. This is a

student with a passion for trying to highlight problems that exist within the

legal system who is interested in

dedicating herself and her life to that continued pursuit.

I'm telling you, you guys just kill the Wi-Fi every time.

I mean, when I was on the steering, it was, like, dropping.

It just makes us, our ability to do business, like, untenable.

I don't think it has anything to do with our equipment.

It 100% does.

Because, like, at night, I've got zero problems. It's only... Something's

interfering, because, like, even when I tried to do that hearing the other day,

it dropped, like, 10 times.

Really? Yeah, I feel like we're on different frequencies, right?

It's not.

I think it's the monitors.

I'm unable to connect to this Wi-Fi. I'm unable to connect to our Wi-Fi. Would it

be the monitors? There we go.

Hi. Hi.

Can you guys hear me?

Yeah, sorry. We were having serious Wi-Fi issues.

So nice to meet you.

So nice to meet you.

Would you know, with the fact that you've involved in similar cases, was

that disclosed at trial?

they were able to get into it at like the highest level but not really no the

entire government's case was predicated on this idea that the technology didn't

work right but they had no evidence to that so they had three patients all of

which liz was acquitted of like each of those counts and then they had nothing

else so they brought in this expert witness and had him say whatever the

fuck they wanted him to say right like i mean it's just procedurally totally

incorrect i mean you know some of some of the questions that i that i would

have

Every single time that you guys are here the Wi-Fi does not work

And so you're thinking of working with her on your case?

You know, the truth is, like, I don't have the money to pay her to do that. So

the question would be, like, would there be a role for her in, like, the telling

of our story? I don't know.

But she could help give context as to where there are strings to be pulled.

You know, it's this weird thing because I've seen a lot of places where I think

there's just, like,

fundamental wrongs.

And, you know, I hope that you guys can look into it, because I think it will

yield results that will really surprise everyone.

But it takes time and energy and effort and, like, passion and somebody to care

about it, so... So maybe you have it, Nathan.

The ability to think independently and actually, like, look into facts.

Because the rest of the world seems totally fucking incapable of it.

Any thoughts?

Hmm? Any thoughts?

I was just listening.

I still have this weird feeling that there's some things that I'm not seeing

totally about you guys.

I know you guys invited me to stay here with you and I declined the offer.

But I've been thinking maybe if I do take you up on your offer and to really

be here.

You are welcome to be here.

Does any part of you worry about me being here 24-7?

I don't think so.

That's what you asked for, is to see everything.

So this is everything.

But what if I see something that makes you look bad, that makes you look

guilty, really guilty?

I'm not guilty.

But what if I see something that makes you look that way?

Then you'll ask questions about it.

You really feel you did nothing wrong?

I did not.

You never tried to deceive anyone?

I've never tried to deceive anyone.

Ever in your life?

No.

Tell me this.

Have you ever lied in your life?

I don't think so.

What?

You've never lied in your life? You've never said something untrue?

Not intentionally.

A white lie?

I mean, I don't know when I was a kid, you know, or like, but I've always tried

to say what I believe.

That's how I've built my life. That's why this is so important to me.

What's your definition of a lie?

intentionally saying something you believe to be untrue.

Like, let's say, you know, you didn't want to go to a party, like a friend's

or like an acquaintance's party.

And you're just like, oh, I'm like not feeling great. I don't want to. You've

never done something like that? Or if you don't like someone?

I'm sure. I mean, I was thinking about lies as like the kind of things I've

been accused of.

But... Well, you've done lies like that.

Telling a friend I feel sick when I don't? Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

That's mommy's jacket. Thank you.

Is that mommy's jacket or daddy's jacket?

Mama's jacket?

Okay.

This adhesion is essential for cell survival.

If cells become detached from their microenvironment, they will die through

a process known as apoptosis.

This phenomenon, which is called adhesion dependency of survival.

Okay, is that thing on the bed all there is, or is there a mattress too?

Is that what we're in there?

For the gas tub, yeah.

Yeah, we've got everything in the storage container. Oh,

okay, okay. Yeah, we've got... Just wasn't sure if it was only the... Yeah,

we like sleeping on just bed frames here.

Doesn't that mess with your head, though, when money is involved, like

that much money?

No, that's not what motivates me.

But what about when the company started to be worth so much money?

I had never once sold a share.

It was never what this was about.

Can I play you a piece of audio that you said?

It's a clip from this interview you did with this journalist for Fortune,

Parloff, I think that was his name.

So you say there, the fact that we have a single device that can perform any

test is a big deal.

But from what I know, you couldn't do every test on a single device. That's

the whole problem. That's why you're going to prison, right?

No, that was our invention. And in the case, I talked about the fact that we

had invented a device that could do any test.

But if you had a single device that could run any tests, then wasn't that

the whole thing?

I don't know what you mean by the whole thing, but what you said is not the

case, and hopefully I can explain that.

What I said is not the case?

What do you mean?

That those statements were untrue.

That's a true statement.

Yes. that you have a single device that can perform any test. We did. That's

what we invented.

So this is the famous scam device.

I mean, it's not a scam device.

But that's what people think, right?

I don't know what people think. What I know is what we invented.

And to me, the technology is amazing.

So this works, you're saying?

It did. Right now, these are just components of a system.

It opens itself.

Did you invent this?

How it opens like that?

Our team did. I don't remember who the inventor was on that.

That wasn't your idea.

I don't remember.

Our technologies worked by allowing the cartridge.

when it was inserted into a device to call the cloud and send

protocols from the cloud down to the device, telling you what to do with the

cartridge that had just been put in.

And we developed that for all these different methods of chemistry that we

were running tests.

So in that way, you can run any test because it's based on the cloud sending

information to a device and you can pre-load any different type of chemistry

into the cartridge that makes sense so the device is different than

the chemistry exactly the device is capable of running any test yes

but because currently the device cannot run every

test you have to you have to develop the small sample chemistries for each test

yeah validate them for certain tests i guess that you hadn't done successfully

on it it's theoretical yeah because this is a platform that can

run those things it's what you're referring to is a future based the

device can is is capable of running any it's the word i guess can i'm talking

about here is what we invented what you invented yeah so when you said the

device can run any test what you meant was the device

is capable of running any test well what i'm talking about here is

that the device is capable of running any test yes assuming additional

chemistry is developed.

Assuming you have the chemistry to do those things.

But do you understand that if someone heard the device can run

any test, how they could interpret that as currently this

device is running any test?

I think we...

provided information about the the tests that uh we had developed and were

developing and because people were saying oh that it can only run 12 tests

on this thing but i think the problem

is the thing that you're asking nathan is like what the general public

understood and was saying this thing like what like you're communicating this

thing and Everyone got a different picture than what you meant.

I was, I mean, I was just trying to communicate the best I knew how, you

know? And you were trying your best to be clear.

Of course.

Because when you say this and describe this, I'm like...

Well, wait a sec. I guess, yeah, the device can, like, that's right, what

you're saying.

But I'm also like, well, why choose those words? Like,

why not just, like, add one word that would make it clear?

But I'm a bad communicator. I don't know a lot of words.

Is that what you're like?

I feel like I know I was

trying to fully communicate what we've created. And I

feel like now I'm living in a parallel universe.

Yeah, I don't... I know what you're feeling.

No, you don't.

I gotta quickly take this legal call.

Do you mind cutting the mic for a second? Sure, yeah.

suspicious that she's ever lied to you? No. Never.

No? Never.

I know it seems weird, but... And is, like, you can shower whenever you want?

Or at certain times?

If I tell somebody I'm busy, is that a lie?

If you're not. Yeah. Yes. Okay.

So I'll say that.

Yeah. And Liz will be like, yeah, Billy's available. He's right here.

Right.

So you lied. Yes.

Yes. Absolutely.

Not that I've known her to. You have to wake up at 3.30? And I know it seems

totally improbable. I understand that. It's weird.

But she's really weird.

She's just not normal.

But the fact that she's most famous for lying. For that thing, you know. The

thing she's never done.

You believe that.

You actually believe since high school she's never told a single lie?

What is an invasive strip search?

Can you see visitors that first weekend?

i think that there's um why are you being so weird and cryptic with your

words say say what you're what's there okay all right thank you

Do you know who Abbott and Costello are?

No. Not really.

No.

Have you heard of the comedy routine Who's On First?

You haven't.

Okay. Can I play this for you?

Okay.

Something we were talking about the other day made me think about this.

Oh, sure.

You know, they don't play it nowadays.

I mean, the Q&A.

A lot of funny names, you know, like Stinky Fields.

Stinky Fields.

Goofy Dan.

Boopy Barber. Boopy Barber.

Well,

let's see now. We have on our team, we have who's on first, what's on second, I

don't know who's on third.

That's what I want to find out, the guy's name.

That's what I want to find out, the guy's name. Now tell me, who's on first,

what's on second, I don't know who's on third. You know the names of the

baseball teams? Yeah. You know the guys' names? Well, I should. Well, you tell me

the guys' names of the baseball teams. I'll tell you who's on first, what's on

second, I don't know who's on third. You ain't seen nothing to me yet. Go ahead

and tell me.

I'm telling him. You said none yet. Go ahead and tell me. Who's on first?

What's on second? I don't know. Who's on third?

You know the guy's name's on the baseball team. Well, go ahead. Who's on

first? Yes. I mean the guy's name. Who? The guy playing first. Who? The guy

playing first base. Who?

The guy on first base.

Who is on first?

What are you asking me for? I don't know.

Now, wait a minute. I'm asking you who's on first. That's his name. Well, go

ahead and tell me. Who? The guy on first. That's it.

That's his name.

I ain't asking nothing. You did. You know the guy's name on first base? Sure.

Tell me the guy's name on first base. Who?

Who is on first loop? What are you asking me for?

I'm asking you a simple question. Who's on first?

That's it. That's who?

So that's maybe the most famous comedy routine of all time.

Do you understand why that's funny?

We couldn't understand each other.

Did you find it funny?

I did.

What did you find funny about it?

That they were just talking over and past each other in a way that I thought

was funny.

And what was funny about it? What did they not understand?

who the player was on first. And what was his name?

I don't know.

The guy who's on first, what was his name?

I didn't pick it up. The guy's name is who?

I didn't get it.

You didn't get that?

No. And so they didn't understand each other because who...

Sounds like someone is saying who's on first.

It's like a question.

But the guy's name is who?

You get it now?

When you were telling me your explanation of what you meant by the

statement, the fact that we have a single device that can run any test is a

big deal.

It felt like to me, well, that statement is so clearly.

confusing to almost like a comedic level but you didn't see it that way when we

were talking i still don't and so i was thinking about it and i was like this

feels like who's on first is that

how it feels to you this what do you mean

billy do you understand what i'm saying i know exactly what you're saying And

it's like one of the, I'm really glad you showed us this because it's like in

some ways perfectly illustrates something that I've tried to communicate

and probably not done well enough, which is she just thinks differently.

And it's what allows her to see the world differently and to do things

differently. But yeah, I think it's one of the most beautiful things about who

you are.

Yeah, something like that might not resonate with her and make sense.

i don't know i mean i i felt then and i still felt that i was

describing i

thought that i was communicating effectively

you know and um

is my is it am i off on this or is this like i i don't know i mean i

don't know i think he's right what he's saying

is that you see the world differently and that you are communicating very

clearly in your mind that your mind works differently than others and when

other people heard the thing that you were saying that they heard it in a way

in which they interpret it

different than what you were saying in your mind i think it's i think it's a

really apt analogy that's not a bad thing you didn't think i was

communicating clearly most people view this and they understand sort

of the joke of who is a confusing name for a baseball player

but you watch this and you didn't see

where the confusion was happening.

I don't know if it gives you more clarity or confusion, Nathan, but...

Well, I don't know. I'm like... I'm not surprised by that.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm not surprised by that at all. I'm honestly

just wondering if your mind, it doesn't grasp how a certain statement can be

read as confusing.

You go get that

Curious George visits the zoo. Where's George?

Right here.

The monkey is George.

Hi. Hi.

I'm Nathan.

Hi, Nathan. Nice to meet you. Very nice to meet you. I'm Noelle.

Noelle.

Pleasure to meet you.

I thought the Hulu series was untruthful. I mean, but people believe

these things, you know. They take these things as gospel.

I read that you worked at Enron.

I did.

How was that?

You spend your life building up your name and then suddenly

you're associated with something that just kind of goes under and has a

horrible reputation.

I think that's painful for anyone.

Sort of happened to Liz too, huh?

Yeah.

Except Elizabeth was by no means guilty of anything.

Where do you think things went wrong for her?

I can tell you exactly what I think. That's really, that's an easy question

to answer.

Okay, you answer it then.

Yeah, so things were wrong for Elizabeth when she got raped.

And I think that she was so stunned by having been raped.

That led to the second thing that really changed her, and that was when Sonny

Balmati came into her life.

Elizabeth was like 19, and he was, what, close to 40?

Did you know he was 40?

No, I knew he was older.

You could tell by how he looked? Yeah.

Liz said she couldn't tell.

He's 30 years old and going to a freshman college program where he does

sexual to other students. I think that's a pretty clear example of trying to seek

out young kids.

So Elizabeth...

Do you

find

it, like, the fact that you saw Sonia and you knew he was really old, do you

find it... Hey guys, as much as I love you guys doing an interview right now...

Liz really wants to spend time together as a family.

Yeah, however long you want, but I just, you know, the purpose of you guys being

here is for us to be able to spend time together. Yeah, I know.

Do you want us to leave, Billy?

No, I don't want you to leave. I just want, I think you guys should document

us spending your time together.

I'm just trying to learn, yeah. Sometimes

I can't tell Billy, like, wants

us here or not.

Do you, um, I guess, like, Sunny was this very important relationship in her

life, or at least a big one, yeah.

How do you feel about the fact that she's getting into business with Billy

after what happened with Sunny? Do you feel like it's smart to get into

business with someone you're romantically involved with?

Good question.

I trust Billy.

And Elizabeth is a lot wiser.

Elizabeth is a lot wiser. She knows.

I guess Billy wants me to come outside.

Yeah, I'll do it with you before I go.

You'll watch the dropout with me?

I mean, I'd prefer to watch as little of it as required, just because I think

it's going to disturb me a lot.

But I'll watch it.

Only if you want to. Only if you can do it. But I would love to watch it with

you. Because I also haven't seen it.

Can you say the company name?

Theranos. I thought it was Theranos.

No, Theranos. It's a mix between therapy and diathesis.

Why not?

Theranos?

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we cut that part? Cut the name.

So, currently we have 500 employees.

You know what?

It's fine.

Okay,

I'll check with you.

When are you going to move in?

It depends.

On what?

On how it goes today with my parents.

Yes, on every parent's dream.

Are you ready, sir?

Katana.

Look at it.

Ask Larry Ellison about retirement. He loves Japan.

How are you on the numbers?

Uh, both blood tests are priced too high. We offer a low-cost alternative

with the possibility to scale up.

Don't talk about saving the world.

I'm not going to talk about saving the world.

Don't use your giddy voice.

Don't say boss.

I don't want to be too beautiful.

It won't take you seriously.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

I know this journey is a shitty one and I know it's like infinitely hard.

I think she gets fussy when I hold her because she wants to feed again every

time I hang with her.

Okay,

okay.

Isn't it weird that I, like, did a TV show about kind of business scams and

you're sort of, like, in trouble for, like, a business scam?

I never actually made that connection.

I think it's a pretty different situation.

If you just said that Theranos was a comedy bit, maybe you could

get off scot-free.

It was real.

Yeah.

It was just a joke.

Okay. As you know, I'm literal.

No, no, I know. I was just kind of making a little joke. Maybe it was bad

taste.

it's always felt free to me being in the water it's like so vast and beautiful

and untamed the closure has resets you

you're

asking me to go yeah

Yeah, I'm normally afraid of cold water.

Okay.

I could break the rule, but yeah.

No pressure.

What are you guys going to need to work on now?

We'll start following up with people and giving people calls.

Okay. About starting to work on, we can do some prototyping.

I wanted to ask you.

are starting to think about an idea for a new type of sensor.

Thank you so much for taking the time. There's a real opportunity to leverage

what's next generation tech in self-driving and tunable lasers and all

these other dimensions into the field of medicine.

We have a laser. The idea is to be able to directly measure like analytes in a

sample.

we think there's enough off-the-shelf components like in existing research

institute labs that we could go there and run some samples yeah absolutely and

the idea is like we get our hands on one determine how good the data is and then

our process would be how do we miniaturize and cost cut which liz's

experience building theranos i think is so relevant whatever the limitations and

the optics are going to be i think can be potentially compensated for in part

through the data set and through the algorithms.

I think you would be able to come up with some of the best algorithms that we

could make to do this great.

Yeah, just like look at it and see like how, you know, an expert virologist,

like what can they tell? If you can hit a dollar a test in low income, like low

resource settings where there's no testing infrastructure, you can change

things. I think the bigger question is can you get the test that cheap because

of the compute required to run it, you know, how many cycles you're going to

need. Totally, totally agree with that.

Yeah, so I think that's probably the best way. This is going to be a classic

moment for the fail path.

From wherever I am, I'm going to continue to work on inventing, like even

if it's inventing from a page, I have to do it. The power of that bee might not

be too happy to see this come about. Wow.

This is really cool.

Yeah, he said that he's really inspired that we're still trying to see this

through. He thinks it's amazing and he wants to help raise money.

I feel so energized after that.

Yeah? Yeah.

Why?

Because it's like what I feel like I was born to do.

What I'm thinking is, is as I work on my ideas, I'll just lay them out in letters

and write to you with ideas and drawings and...

diagrams we can do like a once a week patent session with him and the team

like with a patent lawyer so we can take those ideas and then we can follow them

yes i mean at a high level like the tangible goal is how do we go from idea

to working prototype in under 365 days i totally agree with that i mean i think

doing bottom up on the milestones that we've built and then also having goals

with this on the research side quality over quantity i think that like leads to

learning to be like oh and i think near-term goals is

I think the opportunity is super simple to illustrate to people who are watching

that you

are constantly present.

And I think visually representing that in some way is really important for the

kids. Like illustrating, reading them a book or something, or singing to them.

So this one over here is just face.

So kind of chest up. And it's going to do two things. So it's going to capture

a three-dimensional image of her face. And then it's also going to overlay the

photos on top of that to capture the color. Right. So we're going to do a

neutral of you, just like you are now. And then after we do that one neutral,

we're going to come back. You're going to put your hair back and put a bald cap

on you.

And then I'm going to put just several markers on your face.

washable kind of thing that I use for doing facial markers.

And that's for stitching all these expressions together inside of a

software. So I have 220 cameras in this room for the whole body. I have 70 in

here that generates a high resolution piece of geometry.

And they use these expressions to stitch together you later through a hologram or

a game or a video.

Do you guys have any questions or anything?

I have a weird history with being on the camera because I wasn't on the camera

for a long time. And then I had all these people telling me to go get my

picture taken and, like, do all these pieces. And it ended up hurting us so

much. Like,

the last thing this ever would have done was do this, right?

But, like, now that is the thing that she's very known for because, like, some

photographers have posed like this.

You're talking about the famous photo, right?

Yeah.

I mean, you know this media narrative about me is that, like, somehow I wanted

to be in the media or wanted to be in all these stories, and I had all these

people telling me to go do those stories to help, um, help my company.

Anyway,

now I'm just, like, wanting to make sure that we use it in the right way, and

that's the right thing to do.

Three and then go ahead up ahead. Yep. That's good. We're gonna do two of these

one Two and then our other pose was this yep one

Two and three and now come up. I mean she'd also hold her phone

Let's get one with you texting.

I don't think texting. No? She's not going to text.

Okay. I think that's good. Yeah. All right. I got it.

Let's do a happy. Let's do a smile. Happy.

Yeah. Good.

And then, okay, this is jaw open. Eyes closed.

Open wide. Like, ah.

Okay. Open your eyes.

Like, ah.

It's like an open jaw.

Hey, here it goes.

Watch for it, Izzy.

Oh, there it is. There was, right? Yeah.

You know, there's so much going on, but on my own, I'm perfectly happy.

What else?

Favorite sweater?

I didn't wear this.

I love it.

Perfect.

Why would I deceive you?

There's no... There's no reason for me to do that.

It's weird. The thing that's throwing me the most is how inviting you are and

that you're giving me so much access and you're letting me listen to you all day

long and you're doing this thing again.

You're continuing with Theranos. You're building it again.

It's like everything here points to someone with nothing to hide.

It's because I don't have anything to hide.

I'm building the idea again. It's not Theranos, but it's the invention, the

technology, the ideas.

Right now, the only thing I really have to go off of is you. Because ultimately,

if it's about what you meant by what you said, you're the only person that can

answer that.

I know. I know.

I mean, hopefully I'm showing that with my actions.

I'm not just telling you there's a truth. I'm living by that belief.

But you're smart. You're smart, right?

I don't know about that. You're very smart. Come on, right?

I mean, that's what we're fighting. That's why I'm not. That's why I'm

fighting.

Otherwise,

I would settle and have more time with my baby, which is what I want more than

anything in the world.

I feel like this is a really nice place.

It's kind of green in it.

Immediately, it feels different.

I look forward to looking at houses, finding a place that's safe and secure

for items and walls.

Yeah, maybe we stay.

We do have, like, incredible friends here.

I know this is your final couple hours together. I don't know if you...

We're all here, but if you want to have a moment, I'm happy to step out and

you guys can have some time. But if not, that's okay.

We do need to take a shower because we didn't shower this morning.

Just to give you the option, because you're going to be gone for a very long

time. You won't be able to...

to have sex, so I'm happy to just leave. I can go in my car if you want some

time, just the two of you. I'm happy to pull the cameras out and go away.

And there was this huge fight over Elizabeth's patent during COVID, you

know, when she was already not even associated with a company where people

were arguing over getting their hands on it.

But none of that is picked up on because it's all very frothy right now. You

know, people are making a fortune, you know, off of Elizabeth's story, the

negative side of her story, not the positive side.

But you watch. I mean, I'll be dead when this all happens.

But you watch.

A few decades from now, the whole story is going to be coming out about my

daughter, our daughter.

Oh, hey.

How was it?

Good?

Okay, so we're going to print this, and then... I'm

going to put these shoes on.

Liz,

I got you, like, a little card and a thing.

kind of like a bit of a gag gift but i didn't know your parents would be here

or whatever well i don't know don't get offended it's just kind of like a joke

it was like uh you know like hair dyeing glasses in case she wants to like flee

to another country last minute just a joke sometimes i joke with her too

but anyways maybe not appropriate for the moment

All right.

I'll just send you the contact list. Thank you so much.

So we got that.

Have milk for Ivy in the fridge.

Okay.

Bring it to her.

Yeah, all right.

Thank you.

Like, we don't know where there are roadblocks.

So in a year, I think I'd like to

have a working prototype, a team of people assembled, and then I'd like to

start developing the first tests.

Yeah. I tried getting a hold of that New York Times reporter to see if she had

that quote.

Can you send them to me?

I haven't checked the whole thing for everything.

All right.

Well, so working prototype within a year, you say?

Yeah, that's the goal.

Okay. That's the goal.

I guess give me a call when it's done.

Your company is here? Yeah.

We use lasers.

There have been developments over the course of the last handful of years that

the approach that we are taking and the way in which we are solving the problem

is uniquely possible today.

Artificial intelligence allows you to do that.

And I think a lot of people don't yet know that that's possible. And the

reason why we know this is because Joe really, not me, has been at the

forefront of the most innovative technology in the world.

for these subcomponents and how they're used. We have a technology where we can

look at a specific molecule and start with extremely high resolution, tell you

what's different about its fingerprint today than it was last week.

I mean, that changes everything in the medical universe.

The purple boxes here are lasers.

Okay. So those lasers can be 10,000 different wavelengths of light each. You

send light through a sample, blood or urine or saliva.

That light changes wavelength depending on what's inside of it. And once we

catch that light, we then put it into our computer to interpret the results.

Is this the new device?

These components are part of the device.

All of these will be shrunk down into something about half the size of a

Kleenex box, so you can test for disease with it, with accuracies around 96, 97%.

Is it, like, harder to make decisions together now?

you and liz i think there's just so much trust that most things i

don't really consult her on like i know what she'd want i mean i don't know

anybody else that has a relationship as close as we have

into the magma flow how long does it take to take audio clips and then like

clone her voice um we can get an initial version of it up and running in like 20

or 30 minutes oh really okay wow

it's

it's so crazy because when this was taken

She was, she had given birth like a month before.

She looks so different now.

Like she looks so much healthier.

Now?

Yeah.

She doesn't look healthy here?

No, it's not that she doesn't look healthy. I don't mean healthy. That's

the wrong way to describe it. She looks so much more fit.

Like, like she's got abs.

Healthy is the wrong way to describe it.

That's what this is all about. It's being able to look at a person's body

chemistry at a molecular level.

How do you feel about being a part of carrying on the Theranos

mission? If you're going to solve the problem, it happens with multiple

failures.

Theranos is one failure on a path, and there will be more.

What do you feel like they did wrong?

Oh, they used the wrong technology.

And it was a step along the way, and there are people doing it right now. I

appreciate the line of questioning, but I think that the truth is Joe wasn't

there. Well, I can figure out the question to ask.

Is that okay?

I look at the Theranos endeavor as a wealth of information.

Some things what to do and some things what not to do.

And as far as how it imploded, the claims that they made, I mean, let me

just put it this way.

Entrepreneurs, even the best of them, Elon Musk, make claims that are not

true at any given point in time.

We're going to have...

of self-driving car uh and and people paid money for it so the the point of

right now what's going on you guys can turn off the cameras thank you what's

the issue if you'd like to talk about it turn off the camera i want to know the

issue i'm asking you to turn off the camera bill you can't just walk in in

the middle of an interview i didn't turn off the cameras whenever you want you're

not the director of this i'm not the director yeah i'm not trying to be the

director right so i'm asking you to turn off the cameras i'm not going to engage

with you So can you tell me? I have no idea what you're talking about right

now. I can tell you when the cameras are off, but not talking to you. Okay,

sorry, sorry, Joe. As I've asked you now ten times. Okay, turn off the cameras.

I submitted an application to visit Liz in prison with the...

For it to get the cameras in there.

Oh, it's never gonna happen.

Why?

Because I know more about what they are allowed

to do you think there's no chance it's gonna happen chances below negative

And I love how we are repeating our story about the woman who picked

blueberries and changed the world with her gesture of kindness that went on

from one person to the next.

I really meant it when we were talking about discovering all the most profound

insights from our study and discoveries in nature on Dr. Yes.

So many incredible inventions are to be had.

Tomorrow we will work on our design again together.

I am literally living for it.

um i think liz would tell you if she was here let me speak for her for a moment

is the thing that she thinks she will be remembered for

is for our relationship like what she says is that every action she

takes for as long as she lives will be building monuments of love

For you?

Yeah, that's what she would say.

Liz told me you can get pretty heated sometimes, but she didn't

elaborate, really.

Yeah. So what did she mean?

I mean, you saw it today. I got really frustrated. I'm really protective.

Can I ask, what are your arguments like with her when you guys fight?

We've never really had a significant argument.

I know that sounds crazy, but we really don't argue.

You don't argue ever?

No.

Are you able to sense when she's frustrated with you?

I don't think she really gets frustrated with me. I know it sounds crazy.

Have you ever asked her?

i mean she tells me just about like we're we tell each other just about

everything that we're thinking so you're saying you can sense that she would tell

you if she was frustrated with you yeah even without you asking do

you feel like she has a track record of

standing up for herself in relationships

are these billboards that are all over la are these yours i have nothing to do

with it i have literally nothing to do with it how what are they like what

do you know i don't know because i haven't asked but my vet is in la he's

probably spent three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in billboards probably

another 250 to 300 in florida who's he had two billboards in times square so

just so you know this guy he's the guy who just hates seeing people who are

wrongfully accused of things.

He also happens to run one of the largest diagnostics labs in the country,

and he feels like she's innocent.

How do you feel about this?

Him using her face like that to promote his stuff?

Look, I really admire his conviction and effort to try and help Liz.

But he's using that famous photo of her, right? Oh, man. You know what?

He's a very nice guy. The one that makes her really upset.

No, his intentions are, like, pure. He really wants to help Liz.

In 2007, when I went to pharmaceuticals and introduced my machine and they

started testing it on patients, no one could understand what I was trying to

show.

You took five... Sir, gotta go now!

Listen, you took $500,000.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hey bud, I gotta run.

Oh, we're going to get her out soon, man. Like, I just feel like the tide is

turning. Hit me later?

Yeah, I'll give you a run.

I do.

All right, bye.

Is that the billboard guy you were talking to?

Yes, that was Ryan.

Do you have plans for more of those billboards?

Yeah, he cares a lot about Liz, so he checks in.

He flew out here last weekend.

Is she okay with him using her image like that?

How many people have used her image?

Without her consent.

That's the nature of being a public figure. But it really upset her. Like,

the last time she talked about that photo, she was, like, crying.

Which photo?

The famous photo. No, she doesn't care about that photo.

Well, she said that, like, people used it not how she wanted it, and it hurt

her.

I haven't heard her say that.

You don't remember that? We were all there. I don't know what you're talking

about.

But what I can tell you is his intention is really pure.

He cares a lot about Liz. The whole family does.

I mean, I watched some of his videos. The guy's, he's like, sort of seems like

a kook. Do you think that association's good for her?

Probably not, no. Okay, so then why'd you do it?

Yeah, his delivery's different than mine would be, or Liz's. He hired a blonde

woman to pretend to be Liz at a strip club, and then came in and grabbed her

neck, and then pretended to blow himself up. At 11.

At what? I think it was 11.

The strip club?

Well, it's a club.

It's like a music club in Miami.

discretion so they can actually do whatever they want. They're like, look,

the guideline says I should do this, but I'm giving you probation.

I'm giving you 18 months.

Once I looked it up, I, you know, I heard that there's a show about it.

The Hulu show.

So I started to try to watch that.

I mean, I didn't get far, but I just know Theranos.

What was it?

Therapy and Diagnosis?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

you know she goes to Stanford drops out second year to create this device right

that could no their focus was about all the chemistry it was about uh

the test itself so everybody focuses on the box but the box like because that's

what every time she goes to like them different investors they say where's

working prototype right and they couldn't get it to them

So that was like the whole craziness.

Yeah, man, it's tough.

I can't even imagine what you're going through, to be honest.

Yeah,

so we've started documenting Liz's life.

around us starting to capture these moments because what we're going through

right now, well, I mean, at its simplest level, I feel like the reason why Liz

has been turned into this monster is because nobody knows who she is.

So she can focus on talking to you. Okay.

Can you say the monkey name?

Theranos. No,

Theranos. It's a mix between therapy and diagnosis.

Why not Theranos?

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we cut that part? What about the name?

What was Sonny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer of the company and the vice

chairman.

And what was the role?

I was the CEO and the chairman of the board.

I believed in him, but I know that I didn't

question him in the way that I otherwise would have had that relationship not

been in place.

What? What?

How do you feel? How do you feel?

It's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking. The whole thing is very, very

wild.

When you, like, played her, what were you, like, how did you base your

performance of her? Like, what was that based on?

Well.

I had the 10-12 hours of deposition tapes, which is just her sitting there.

And then I watched every interview she's ever done, but I know that it was told

to me from the beginning, we are not allowed to talk to her, she's not

allowed to talk to us.

How did that feel to you?

Good. Good.

Because I was like, oh good, we have parameters here. We're working in

fiction land.

You saw the show as fiction.

With...

ridiculous amounts of research and most of the things we were allowed to every

time we veered off path a little bit it was because it was allowed because it's

you know tv and so that washing that was like weird i

don't know she really could just be

crazy

And she said she didn't want to be famous, she didn't want to be in

pictures, but, like... But

that's not the kind of person that could create what she created.

What? What kind of person?

I think it takes somebody... I think it takes something else.

Yeah. And I'm sorry, but she did... The things that were frustrating... There

was a lot of things that were frustrating, and one of them being that,

like... Sonny is the bad guy and she was just a victim of Sonny. And now she's

going to... That's not... I mean, is that

possible? That Sonny just is the reason... Sonny was the guy lying to

people?

I mean, the challenge I'm having with all of this is she was taken away and

went in and...

now it's billy just saying i know what's going on with her and he even said to me

like i don't even have to talk to her to know what she wants i wish there was a

way you could find out some real shit on billy bring it to her find what break

them up you want them to break up no find some shit on billy yeah of course i

do no woman wants to see another woman go be controlled

by that

Not that I would do this, but I fantasized for a minute, like, playing

her post-trial.

When did you fantasize?

Just when I was watching it. Oh, when you were watching it. I forget what

scene it was.

When you were sitting there on the couch with her, you could talk.

She's like, what?

She just...

I feel like a little haunted.

Because I have to just sit with the discomfort of A, not knowing, and B, not

knowing how I feel about it, and C, being able to do nothing about it, and

D, just feeling shitty about myself and my own feelings about

it. Lots of things.

She's not just an idea in my head. This should actually happen.

Oh my god.

They were like renting it when we shot.

It's really dusty.

Were these vitamins here?

I don't remember that. Okay. This coffee machine for sure, this toaster, this

obviously, fridge, microwave.

Was this here?

I think she used that for... They had that here.

She didn't really drink coffee.

Do you miss her?

Miss? I mean... It must be weird.

This is a weird word.

Can I tell you something or a story about how this, like something that

happened here that I still sort of think about?

Yeah.

It was before we had cameras here. It sort of...

So it relates to how this whole project came about.

Like when you first met?

Yeah.

Basically, I went down to meet her and Billy for the first time in San Diego

after I heard a rumor through the grapevine that maybe she was interested

in having her life documented.

You sure you don't want any of it?

I'm all right. Thanks.

I took notes after on everything that happened and so this script is sort of

based on my memory of what happened and like those notes I had.

They showed me a clip of something that you made on YouTube.

You were at a gas station talking to the owner.

Oh yeah, that was from a comedy show I used to make called Nathan For You.

It was pretty clear from the moment I met her that She had no real clue who I

was or had seen anything I had made before.

And then she asked if you had kids. Do you have kids?

No.

Being a dad.

Which was so bizarre.

I don't know. It was weird because, like, When she said that, it actually,

like, made me feel good for some reason.

It felt super sincere.

But because I was feeling that, that weird mix of this feels so authentic

with her, but then I don't trust it, it felt like watching a magician.

Do you know who David Blaine is, the magician?

I do.

And that just came to your mind?

Yeah, in the moment. And I wrote, this is basically verbatim what I told her.

All right, so David Blaine does this thing where he sticks an ice pick right

through the palm of his hand.

And the way he presents it, it looks like a magic trick.

But I actually think he's really sticking the ice pick through his hand.

Like I saw in an interview, he said he dug a tiny hole through his hand, so it

actually is going through.

But it always just looks like a trick to people because of how he presents it.

And what I find so interesting about you, is that in the aftermath of

everything that's happened with you, with the reputation you have, no

offense, but I don't think anyone will ever believe you ever again.

Like, you can be telling the truth as much as you want, and just no one's

going to believe you. So when I said that to her, I remember her eyes lit up,

and she was, like, very excited by this idea.

And you're not really saying that it's, like, a good thing.

No. And she's taking credit.

Did you hear what Ethan just said?

No. What did he say?

He said, I'm like, I remind him of David Blaine.

She sort of paraphrased what I had said.

And then they had this weird look between each other.

Like the two of them shared this knowing look. And I was like, what?

Billy said that your mind works in an interesting way.

Okay.

We... Only want to let people into our lives who think outside the box.

And you look at things differently.

And you don't give a fuck what people think.

So after that, things came together really quickly. We basically went from

that first meeting to coming down to shoot in the San Diego house they were

renting within a week.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Wow. There was this urgency to get started with the project because she was

going to prison soon.

So we began filming with them before she had signed any appearance release.

But the thing that I can't get out of my head is something that happened at this

meeting that Billy said he wanted to have before they agreed to sign

anything.

He requested we come to their friend's house in LA.

It was me, Lance, the co-director of this, and two executives

from A24.

And we all sat around this table and Liz started reading the opening chapter to

this, I guess, a book she was writing. The first chapter I'm calling Waking Up.

Love ignites a courage that cannot be extinguished. The sheets in our bed are

so soft. I roll over and look at you.

You are perfect.

Your arms are wrapped over my heart.

We didn't know what the reason for the meeting was. So when she started reading

it, we were like, oh, is there a point to this?

I wouldn't say to the writer, but every time I saw the beams falling through our

windows, I was a little sad.

I didn't know what to say before.

That's it.

That's it.

So great.

That was incredible.

So you guys are all saying how great it is. Well, we were trying to be polite.

Absolutely. I didn't know really what to say. For sure. Of course.

And then you could hear her oldest child like sort of yelling and playing in

another room. Yeah.

So she gets up in that moment from the table and goes to see the kids.

Okay.

So, guys, I think we need to have a conversation about the terms of our

involvement in this project.

Okay.

What do you mean by that?

Once she was gone, Billy started talking about money.

I don't know what your vision is for this project.

You guys are artists, and that's what drives you.

But I do know that there is potential for this movie to also make a lot of

money, and... I feel

strongly that if this movie were to make money...

that we should be entitled to some of it. Which is not customary and just kind

of unethical. It's not customary for people to make a profit off the

documentaries that they're appearing in. I mean, I was vocal with them, too.

I said, I agree with Ravi on this completely.

It is not a good idea.

Why not?

I mean, the optics are terrible.

If you guys are making money from this documentary, people are going to

question your guys' motives for being in it in the first place.

And also, it might give the perception that you guys have a creative say over

what the final product is. This is not, it's not good for the film. No, but I've

looked into this, and there are many, many examples of documentary subjects

getting paid.

The Meghan Markle and Prince Harry documentary on Netflix, I read somewhere

that they got paid $100 million to make that. That's not real.

documentary i know but lance i know it's bad but the fact is that they did get

paid for that but then it ends it's a non-negotiable with him eating a slice

of pizza yeah i guess the friend had got pizza for this meeting so there was like

several pizzas there um like what did you decide well

at this point like he had all the leverage so a24 felt they had like no

choice but to give him a portion of the profits shut the up yeah

how did that make you

feel well i was really frustrated because i felt like the integrity of the

project might be out the window and i actually considered just leaving the

project and saying well i can't do this but then i also thought there might be

something interesting about the fact that we were sort of witnessing how

these guys do business and how she operates with her romantic partner in

relationships.

I assume that even though, like, Liz wasn't in the room when he started

making demands, he would eventually, like, obviously tell her about the deal

he made.

Yeah. But then days before she headed to prison, she said something that made me

reconsider.

And this is actually something that we have on camera. So it's really, can I

show you? Yeah. Okay. Yep.

This is still in San Diego.

Yes.

I think this is the moment in time to capture this

story before I'm gone. And hopefully the truth comes out. Because obviously I'm

not making any money or having any economic interest in this whatsoever.

So I just think that's the right thing.

What do you make of that?

Like what?

having any economic interest in this whatsoever so i just think that's the

right thing like when this happened you can see on my face that i like i

honestly didn't know how to respond i mean there's obviously a chance that

this is all complete right there's a theory that this was a

coordinated event

That she intentionally left the room at a certain point so Billy could talk

about this.

And ultimately, it was just all a ruse or a

scheme to keep her hands clean while her partner does the dirty work.

And this is an insight into how she operates.

But for some reason, when she is saying this and the way she says it,

I don't know why, but my first instinct is to believe her. This is the moment in

time to capture this story before I'm gone. And hopefully the

truth comes out. Because obviously I'm not making any money or having any

economic interest in this whatsoever.

Yeah, she seems just like... Here's the thing.

Can she really be this out of the loop? Like, when deals are being made in her

name?

This is the woman that created Theranos.

Like, I don't even know if there's two ways about it.

Either this is fully sincere and she actually has...

no clue about the deal Billy made, or she

honestly might be the most manipulative person that's ever lived.

It wouldn't be our fault if we got duped by her again.

I don't want to let it happen.

That's just personal for me.

She has nothing to gain from him behaving like this.

It's crazy.

Money. Like she said, she's never cared about money. And she probably still

doesn't. She probably doesn't know. Do you believe that?

That she doesn't care about money?

I think she cares about money. I think she tries to make a point that it's not

about the money.

Don't get taken in.

Don't get lured. Don't let her get in your head.

She still looks kind of innocent.

If he would be interested and, you know, if he's

available, I don't know. I think I could probably disarm him and then ask him the

questions that were there to ask him.

Well, what could you get from him that I couldn't?

I just feel like people trust me. People talk to me.

They sometimes say too much.

I would take advantage of that.

Does he know anything about the reenactment?

No. What does Billy know about my involvement in this?

All I've told him is that we've gotten to know each other casually,

that you're in Texas, and that I asked if you'd, like, tag along.

And he seemed like he was into that.

Did he ask why I wanted to?

He actually didn't.

Alright, you're safe.

She doesn't know me or anything about me.

So what does that mean?

It just means I feel like an undercover cop right now. Like, crazy.

And you do like that feeling?

I do.

You okay? Yeah.

Yep, just another day, you know?

Let's go grab our food.

Uh-oh, is somebody out here?

Yeah. Oh, wow. No, for the kids.

Okay. Is there food outside? Amanda, nice to meet you. You're so tall.

What do you need?

Okay, let's go read your guys' books.

I'm going to go read your books. I'm going to put you to bed, and I'll be

back in maybe 15 minutes with our grandchildren.

Say goodnight. Give her a big hug. Listen, you are a real stand-up lady,

okay?

And...

Hey,

baby.

I'm here with Wills and Ivy.

I know we only have

two minutes, but we love you. Two minutes.

And then Nathan and Lance and Amanda's here. Say hi.

Hi.

Did you know I was going to be here?

ruin your two minutes with your beautiful family we're having a good

time you're you're you're you have a beautiful family no i i

don't know i don't even yeah sorry you're wonderful i i love you

yeah you can give me a call later

okay say bye mommy bye mommy wheels big bye okay

Say goodnight, everyone.

Goodnight.

I don't know if I knew. I don't know if I knew.

You know what?

She said, did you know I was going to be here? I don't know if I knew.

Is that what she said? Yeah.

Do you know how much stock she ever sold?

Nothing.

Zero.

She literally could have had...

billion and a half dollars personally and still been a majority shareholder in

the business. How are you guys making money now?

She gets paid 30 cents an hour.

What about you?

I've got my own business.

I don't know. I mean, to be honest, the thing I've been thinking about is just

like, like,

how decisions are made and how much is,

You know, her, these are her desires or these are yours or these are both.

I think they're one in the same because the life that the two of us intend to

live is one for our family.

Like she is my, she is my soul.

Do you have conjugal visits?

There's no conjugal visits in federal prison. I've been laid for 899 days.

It's day 899. Tomorrow's day 900.

I count the days.

That you haven't had sex?

Yeah. Day 900.

Other than, like, Pamela Henderson.

Excuse me?

She's masturbating.

Yeah, it's a joke.

I feel like a lot of women would say sex is better by myself.

Yeah, that's because most men aren't good at it. Are you good at sex?

Yeah, I'm fucking excellent.

How do you know?

Because I lied every time.

You lied about what?

To every partner.

Like, you'd say if it was bad, oh, that was so good. Yes, of course. So how do

you know you weren't getting that? That's my point.

Can we change the subject? Let's talk about something else.

Sex. So how is Liz getting info? Like, she doesn't have the internet in there,

right? We send her so many emails.

So she has email but not internet?

Yeah.

So she's, like, sending tweets, like, today.

How does that work?

Yeah, some of them are just me.

Some?

And she does others?

Yeah, I'd say 80% of it's her.

How does she do it?

Well, I mean, I'm physically putting it on the internet, but she sends me an

email saying, here's this line of text, and I copy it, and I paste it, and I put

it on the internet. But she writes it.

Do you tell her that you're doing it?

Yeah.

She knows that whatever she sends is, like, fair game for the... No, she just

trusts me.

Some things that she doesn't frame as, like, for the internet, i put up put

there how did it begin like was she like i want to start no i told her to i just

said fuck this i'm tired of the silence what's she saying and you

and i can read you some of them what are you yeah what is it what what's the what

is she talking about like biotech is she talking about what she's doing

So there's this photo of, like, shitty weed. It says, what do you call this

kind of weed where you are from?

Wait, she posted this? No, somebody posted this. Oh.

And I wrote.

Or she wrote.

No, I wrote this.

But as her.

Yeah, from her account.

I said, mandatory sentence extension and a free trip to the solitary housing

unit.

Oh, my God.

You wrote that.

I wrote this. Oh, my God. What would she say if she saw her ex account? She was

like, this is not me.

No, it is her. She'd think it's hilarious.

Yeah.

How did the account get like?

She had an account from years ago, 15 years ago. And so how did you get

access? I messaged one of the top people at X, and I just said, hey, this

is who I am. Here's a power of attorney.

I need access to her account.

Power of attorney?

Yeah, I can do anything legally for Liz. Anything.

You have power of attorney?

Yeah, like unalienable, so I can literally do anything.

I don't understand how the fuck you got that.

She signed a document that said I had power of attorney. Why would she do

that? Because we trust each other. But she's alive.

Yeah. And functioning.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of things she can't do.

But don't do anything crazy.

I mean, there's just a bunch of, like, nasty things in here that I really

shouldn't say.

The problem is if I had to, like, clear everything by her, I think for too long

she just let things slide, and I don't fucking take it.

I know, but that's not her.

Yeah. That's you.

And that, I don't think it's good. I don't think it's helpful.

She's cool with everything that I say.

Amanda,

with all due respect, your advice is one of the last ones I would take on this

subject. You said yourself. Your experience with social media hasn't

exactly been successful over the course of the last six months. It's been very

successful, actually.

In distance and 50% of the country.

Wait, for what?

Yeah, Amanda was getting dragged on social media because she said something

shitty about Charlie Cart.

I just said he was hateful.

For two days, I was like... She got fucking dragged.

Is she a Charlie Kirk fan?

I am.

You are? Yeah. I think he's a fucking pussy.

And... I hope his voice cares. Can I say something about him real quick? You're

not going to like me politically. I don't want to hear it, but can I ask...

Because I'm better read than you.

I don't like the fact that he was performative when he was with those

people. You're a fucking actress.

And then an asshole... Yeah, but my own feelings... Who played my wife with no

research. Talk about performance. One character, but it wasn't her.

It was based on her. I think the writers and the producers of the shows are

deplorable people.

Well, listen, let's talk about the videos. Because they just made a bunch

of shit up. I hear what you're saying.

I'm just giving you a little bit more context. Yeah, I'm going to ruin their

lives. I hear you. Whose lives?

I hear you. Fucking everyone.

I've got a vengeance in my heart.

Everyone? Fucking everyone.

You can still be angry, but you can cause more of an impact.

well the problem is i'm good at it good at what i mean i'm pretty strategic i'm

well resourced i know people who can do just about anything um to harm people

i mean it's exactly what it says

But then Liz is in my mind, and she says, don't feel that way.

It doesn't matter.

I love you.

Everything's okay.

And then I get calm.

He is batshit crazy.

He's an angry fucking guy.

Why the fuck would you be her voice?

The only voice she has in the world right now when she's in prison?

I mean, some of the things he's posting just... Well, I don't know if this is

coming from him or her, but it just doesn't sound like her, like a response

like that.

But does Ernos have a technology promise? Yes, you fucking idiot. Like,

she would never say that.

She would never say that. But this is her Twitter and it's like verified.

It's crazy.

Like, someone's asking, are you sharing a crypto token? And she goes, fuck off.

Like, in what world? That's not being supportive of her having a voice.

at all this is sort of a crazy one because so someone asked her on twitter

did you watch the dropout and she wrote never will

but she's seen it and when this documentary comes out this will be like

seen as a lie nathan i i'm 99.9 sure she has no idea

that that's been written

with whey protein in it. So you can get a medium and split it into two cups.

Yeah,

that's what I'd recommend.

Thank you so much.

When I left the prison the other day with both of the kids in the car and

just me, there's three cars tailing my car.

So I recorded an interview for the purpose of, like, if anything happens to

me, it goes live.

What do you mean by anything happens to you? Like if I'm killed or if I get hurt

or... If somebody tries to silence me, then everything goes

out. So it's kind of like insurance.

But do you feel like there's an imminent threat right now?

I mean, there's a reason why I carry a gun on me 24-7, 365.

You have a gun on you right now?

Oh, here. It worked. Yeah.

It is scary good if you give it the right data.

What's the goal with something like that?

Let people do whatever they want with it.

Huh. Yeah.

It's just like the public do it. Yeah, it's going to happen anyways.

So if you're going to have it happen, you might as well have the

representation of her like actually look like her. Right. Well, what if they

think images of her like having sex like pornos?

yeah not super worried i think people are gonna do that like there's no

stopping that okay

let me ask you this is liz

aware of the details of the deal you made for her to appear in this

documentary which which details so liz told me uh

Before she went in? Well, she's aware of some of the details.

The stuff related to, like, the money?

No.

I purposely didn't want her to be aware of all of it.

Why?

Because she was handling a lot of shit at the time.

Okay.

Like, be specific.

and I'm happy to answer any very specific question.

Okay.

Is she interested in making money from this?

No.

The central thing...

that you guys have been trying to argue from the beginning is liz is someone who

doesn't care about money that's not what someone motivates her yeah so you're

taking an action that directly puts that into question yeah and she didn't want

to but i'm i'm practical well the reason i'm bringing this up is like there's

still like opportunity to to change this i mean when you profit off like the the

back end of a movie like that doesn't pay out until the movie comes out so

like you know i

hear you and i will uh i'll think about it

when you said

we we said that we knew some of the details of the deal that you made

yeah what were those details oh gosh i don't remember all i do remember is that

she was not involved in the process

so i don't remember what she saw or what she knew of um

all right i

don't know if she's ever seen that

Dear Elizabeth, comma,

I'd like to try to establish a direct line of communication to you

if that's something you'd be open to, period.

It's been challenging to talk like we used to.

Period. Billy is concerned about leaks to the press, and because your mail is

monitored, I know I can't say much.

Comma.

But you've been on my mind a lot lately, and I

have some questions that I think only you can answer.

Period.

I'm in a hotel room in New York City right now.

I'm here because I recently went through a breakup, but you don't have to worry

about me because I'm doing okay.

Exclamation point.

Billy had mentioned that there's no way to schedule a phone call with you at a

specific time because It's first come, first serve in there, and everyone just

has to wait in a really long line, period.

So how about this?

I assume it's at least three days before you receive this letter.

So on December 19th, I'm going to be by my phone from 7 a.m. to

7 p.m. your time, Texas time.

i really hope to hear from you that day liz uh keep it up in there

or from

comma nathan

Okay, Billy just messaged.

Liz said you wanted her to call this morning.

Is that still something you want? Can you give me context?

So she told him.

What is the window?

He just messaged that.

Would 8.15 her time work for her?

Hello?

Hello, hey. I was trying to get a hold of you while I had her on the video to

confirm the call, but she just left the video.

Okay. Can she call, though?

Well,

I couldn't confirm it with her. I was trying to call you while she was on the

video to be able to tell her.

Oh, but I texted you that I'm around.

I thought it was already confirmed.

Is she going to be around to talk?

the subjects without giving me any context beforehand for us to be able to

talk through them. Yeah, because I want it on camera.

It's a documentary.

And I think that my willingness to facilitate your conversations with Liz

are pretty low right now because, yeah, I would just say I don't know if you're

going to get that.

Well, why would you not want to facilitate things?

The warden is in a place right now that if she gets light of you

recording her while she's in prison, she'll be shipped to a different

facility.

If anyone records her while she's in prison?

If they think that she is knowingly facilitating recording,

she could get sent to a higher...

security facility, which means that the kids and I wouldn't be able to see her

on the weekends.

And the last thing that I want to do is to make it so I need to move to fucking

Arizona.

I just think... I just think we need to hear her.

I get it. The subject of your film, you cannot talk to.

It makes for an impossible scenario.

I totally understand.

But if you guys are going to be putting this out, I can promise... She's gonna

get fucked.

Just hope that you can see it from my perspective.

So we'll see if she calls you about it.

Hold on.

Oh, no.

Fuck.

No, I went to West now.

Oh, it's probably me. It's probably me. Okay, give me your phone.

We're from a federal prison.

You will not be charged for this call.

This call is from Elizabeth Holmes.

This call...

future call press 7.

to reject this call hang up now you may begin speaking now

Hello. Hey.

Hi.

I was trying to get a hold of you and it wouldn't let that phone number go

through, but I don't know if you guys are together.

Oh, yeah. You called Lance's phone.

Oh, yeah.

No worries.

How are you?

I'm good.

How are you doing?

Good. Will you move a little further away from the mic? Yeah, yeah.

I've been thinking about you and everything that you've been going

through. I'll find the right person.

I know it.

That's nice of you to say.

I know what it means from going through all this.

It's nice to hear your voice.

I know.

We gotta get you out here soon.

Yeah.

I think that would be great.

Me too.

The phone minutes are going to be short, by the way. It's going to cut out.

Mm-hmm.

How is your dating going?

What do you mean?

Pardon me?

What do you mean by that?

I shouldn't quite say it like that.

okay it's close enough oh just sort of uh open-ended i i

don't know what's been going on i was just curious just like

How's your day?

It's like, well, I'm in a cell and locked down a lot.

Mm-hmm.

I wanted to ask you something.

Oh, gosh. This guy's gonna hang up. I won't be past my minutes, but I just...

You need to come visit.

Oh, um, yeah. I want to see you.

We'll make it happen. Come, come, come.

Okay, okay.

All right, bye.

Okay.

You just need to get there.

It's the only time you're going to have any private moments with her.

And I also think she's covering because she's being recorded by the prison.

That's why she wants you to come.

But then the issue is sort of like we don't have the ability to bring cameras

in there.

But you're going to have to just trust yourself.

Trust yourself in the fact that you're really going to ask him questions.

How do you convey what I experience?

I will reenact whatever you want me to reenact, and... I mean, this is no

offense to you. You're a very talented actress, very good performer, but, you

know, you're not her.

No, I know. And so... But guess how many people believed that that was

her when I played her?

A lot.

I know, but the point isn't convincing people that this is her. The point is...

Okay, whatever I discover in there, that should

be conveyed accurately.

What did he do?

He farted.

He's old.

Sorry, I'm a little sick.

So what happened?

The first thing you do is you go through security.

You're not allowed any electronic device, no camera, no recording

equipment, not even a watch.

The only thing you're allowed to bring in is a credit card and your ID.

I know from talking to Billy that he doesn't show up right at the start of

the visitor time, which is 8 a.m. So my thinking is if I get there right at 8,

then I'll have like a full hour with her at least before he shows up.

Then the door opens from the inside of the prison to the visitor room and two

other inmates come out.

not her what are you thinking well there's no clock in the room so i don't

know how much time is passing and they're supposed to call her and she's

supposed to be there within five minutes so i start looking for a clock and i

can't find one yeah and then i sort of wander over to the vending machines

and i'm looking at those and i see there is a clock on the credit card

reader on the vending machine and I see in there the time is like 8 30.

So I've been waiting for 20 minutes and she's not out yet.

I go back to my seat and I keep waiting and I start to wonder if

she's going to show up at all.

So the door opens again, and it's her.

She looked right at me, came towards me. I stood up, and she hugged me.

And it was a very strong hug.

And I felt her body, like, vibrating, like shaking in the hug.

And it lasted about 10 seconds, I'd say.

Was her shaking?

authentic yeah that's how it felt from her then immediately she says to

me you look different oh yeah how you seem more serious

did i not seem serious before so i don't know whatever but

we sit down and i noticed a family member of another inmate was carrying

him

from the eating machines and she was like looking over at that so i just felt

oh like do you want some food and she was

like that'd be great but you don't have to we just we're not allowed to buy

snacks ourselves from the machines yeah oh uh yeah no problem uh what do you

want i like the turkey jerky Funny that she likes turkey jerky so much.

So you get to the vending machine and it's already 8.55 and you know Billy's

coming in like five minutes.

I know Billy comes around nine so I just don't know how much time I have.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried she says?

I mean the way she says it is Seyfried.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried?

So she brings me up.

So yeah, she brought you up. Are you surprised by that?

She says, you know, people in here think that Amanda's show is a documentary.

They think everything in there happened.

A guard came up to me and said that I was a terrible person and I asked what

they had read.

And all they had seen was Amanda's show.

Yeah, I don't know really about that stuff.

I get treated worse in here because of her portrayal of me.

And it's really fucked up that a woman would do something like that to another

woman.

Okay, wow.

I didn't do that to her.

She did that to herself.

I think it's, I mean, my defenses are up because I'm like, yeah, I feel

bad for the way you're being treated here.

But also, it's not our job to teach people things.

I mean, I have nothing against Amanda personally, but the women who made their

show, all of them, they knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that the

show was filled with lies.

I mean, lies aren't, it's not lies. Like, those aren't lies.

It's fucking TV, you know.

If the show hadn't been made, people would still have... fucking bully her

for what they think she did when the machine exploded and blood squirted out

and then she said you know what it doesn't matter did that happen i

don't know if she says you know what it didn't matter because she behaved as

though you know what it didn't matter but there's no it's possible that she

said that but that line is made up yeah absolutely we weren't there it's so

painful to to i'm just i'm tired of of having other people speak for me

just i just don't want that to ever happen again

i think this is all billy getting getting into her head it's what is it

it's a conspiracy now amanda's show okay hmm okay

so i'm starting to get a little nervous because we haven't gotten to the thing

that i came to talk about yet, and I just don't know when Billy's going to

show up.

So, when we were with you a few years ago back in San Diego,

Del Mar, did Billy ever tell you the details of the deal he made for your

involvement in this project?

I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

negotiated a contract to get paid a portion of the profits of the film.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not really involved in

that because it's just not really my thing.

Billy told me you knew some of the details about the deal he made.

What details did you know?

And Liz says, well, I knew he was talking to you about it.

Well, I knew that he was talking to you about it.

So she knew that when she went upstairs.

to check on the kids that the money stuff was going to be discussed

because she's telling you she knew and that clarifies

the fact that she had knowledge of the deal which is very strange um and it

does start it's starting to feel like she is just trying to keep her hands

clean because it's interesting because when she said that to me

How do you feel?

I didn't instantly receive it as... Or

she must be deceiving me, so... Maybe she didn't actually say it like this,

I'm wondering.

Maybe she said, well, I knew he was talking to you about something, not it.

Well, those are two different words for sure.

And, yeah, I feel confident about that. Okay.

So can you change that in your script, actually? Will you change

it to something?

I knew that he was talking to you about something.

He did?

Yeah. Again, this is more his thing.

We are very separate on these things.

I guess what I'm wondering is, is this something that you want?

Because there still is time to change it.

It's not my world.

And more, it doesn't pertain to me, you know? It was not my focus at the time.

How does it not pertain to you?

You negotiated a deal to profit off your participation in this movie. A deal that

you're both going to benefit from.

And you keep ringing this bell that you don't care about money.

I don't.

Okay, so you have...

No opinion about how turning this thing into an opportunity for profit is going

to affect that perception of you? I completely understand where you're

coming from, and if you think it's bad for the project, I'll talk to Billy.

But our finances are completely separate.

Come on, Liz.

You have kids together.

So whether or not she knew about the financial part of the deal is one thing.

Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

But I could not get a sense of how she felt about it. And it almost seemed like

she had no opinion of her own. Let me talk to Billy.

And I'm sure whatever the path is, it'll be the right one.

This is so frustrating.

How is she going to get any help if she's just like hiding behind this

jackass?

I find it interesting that you can be someone who doesn't care about money,

but you're intertwined with someone who does.

And you're not eager to influence decisions in that relationship.

Does that actually mean you don't care about money?

Sort of hard to tell, right? Nathan, I don't have the option to care about

money. I owe hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution.

Every dollar I make, they take from me.

I promise I'll talk to him.

Are you even aware of the decisions he's making on your behalf?

That photo of yourself that you hate is currently blown up on billboards all

across America.

I heard about that.

He told you about that?

I mean, he's created an AI version of you that can say whatever he wants it to

say. And he's pretending to be you on Twitter?

Telling people to go fuck themselves?

I can't imagine that these are things that you want.

Billy has his own way of doing things.

Okay.

This whole experience, this fire that we're going through together,

it's just annealed our love in...

Such an intense way.

And Neil?

Yeah.

I feel him so deeply.

Even when I'm in my cell, alone, you know, I...

I feel him with me.

And we don't even need to speak.

And that's how I talk to him.

I have conversations with him in my head.

And I know what he's feeling and what he would say.

I see these couples who've been together for years and years, and they're

supposedly in love, but you can see that they're not.

And I'm like, why?

Why?

Why would you do that to yourself?

And I've never had that with Billy.

Not once.

Not once.

And I don't have to. pretend with you so it's just so real

you guys and we're building monuments of love

for each other each and every day

ever

since billy has come into my life i've become convinced that our idea of what

we believe to be god is actually love

i

mean i don't know if this is like a stockholm syndrome symptom i

don't know i guess in the moment i

Thought it was like, kind of nice.

Are you kidding me? He's the most selfish?

He's a, he's a narcissist.

Well, I think the love is like, real.

I did

not sense.

duress.

I did not sense fear.

I sensed just complete, unbridled, genuine love for this man.

I got that.

She looks great.

Okay,

I think I'm gonna cut out. I'll give you guys some time. You sure you don't want

to stay?

Yeah. Okay, let's go outside.

I'll get permission.

I'm just curious if there were

moments or was a moment when you guys were alone in the prison

and I'm just wondering if there was maybe a moment where

she was being deceitful

or manipulative and you're not including it because you're

being protective of her.

Why would you think I was doing that?

I don't know.

What do you mean?

It's coming from nowhere? No, I just feel like maybe you're just

don't want to portray something that might hurt her.

Why would I not want to portray something that might hurt her?

Because you care about her?

I'm not putting, I'm not really putting my feelings into this, or I'm trying not

to, I'm just trying to be accurate.

Why are you smiling?