Original subtitles

[Rick Rubin] What was the first hip-hop line you can remember hearing

where you realized more was going on

in the words than what was on the surface

- of what was being said? - Mm.

The one that sti-- one that comes to my mind immediately,

I did a, um...

Fresh Gordon was a producer out of Brooklyn...

and a friend of Jazz.

And we used to go by Gordon's house and make tapes

before we had any kind of thing going on for ourself.

And we would make, I guess mixtapes, that's what they--

You know, and these freestyles we would do.

One time we went over, and Jazz and Big Daddy Kane

was meant to-- now, like, Kane is Kane in Brooklyn.

I don't think he has an album out yet,

but he's performing with Biz,

and he's like writing songs for Biz Markie

and everyone hearing about this guy, Big Daddy Kane,

who's a rapper from Brooklyn.

And Jazz already had a name in Brooklyn.

And so, through contacts, these two guys

were meant to make like a-- a mixtape together.

They were gonna do a freestyle at Gordon's house,

and Jazz brought me.

"You want to get on it?" He's like, "You mind if my man get on it?"

And Kane's like, "I don't care. Cool."

And I rap, and then Kane goes.

Kane comes setting it off. This is before the record.

We don't-- this is the first time we're hearing these-- these lyrics.

"Setting it off, letting it off, beginning, rough to the ending.

"You never been in, to move the groove with the smooth rap lord,

"bottle of juice, rhymes are getting poured

"down your ear, crisp and clear, as I prepare

"to wear, smear, and tear, and then I'm outta here,

"with a mark left that you can all cling,

"'cause rocking a party is just a small thing.

"I rock the site on a regular basis.

"I've been there and there at the party.

The mic left the prints and on it was a body."

And I'm like, okay.

"So put a quarter in your ass 'cause you played yourself."

In the-- the arcade games, you put a quarter in,

and blah-bah-bah. and "you played yourself"

wasn't a popular phrase yet.

And I was like, wow! Whoa.

- Yeah. - "So put a quarter in your ass

- 'cause you played yourself." - Yeah.

And it's like, oh, okay. I got a ways to go.

It just opened a new door in you of what was possible.

Yeah. I remember leaving there

thinking, oh, I got a ways to go.

You know, I'm not there yet. But the strange thing

about that whole thing is it led to me and Kane working together,

'cause that tape started traveling.

- There was no internet, obviously. - Yeah.

So, if this tape made it to Florida,

- it was like, how? - Yeah.

- People was like-- - Tell me about mixtapes.

Tell me about the whole mixtape culture.

So, you know, you just created this--

It was a freestyle, really, and you made a cassette tape.

And those days, those cassette tapes was like equity.

It showed how cool you were.

That's why people stayed up late night

recording pirate radio, The Supreme Team Show...

- Yeah. - ...and all these things because when you move with these tapes

and you put this on, it told--

It informed the world who you were.

Yeah.

"You had a Supreme Team.

Wow, that's cool. Where'd you get that from?"

"No, I stayed up. Stretch and Bobbito."

Um, you know, what was the one that was--

um, Chuck D was on in Long Island?

- HBI? - HBI.

And these tapes said something about who you were.

- Yeah. - So, this tape made it

up and down the Eastern Seaboard.

Everyone was talking about this tape,

and everyone's talking about, "Who's the kid?"

They knew Kane, they knew Jazz.

- Yeah. - They was like, "Who is the kid? He's nice."

Everyone was asking, "Who's the guy?"

- Yeah. - "Who's that young guy?"

That's how me and Kane, so Kane like Jazz.

"Yo, Jazz, you mind if I work with, um, homeboy?"

And that's how me and Kane started working.

I ended up going on tour with Kane.

So, you went on tour with Kane before you had any records?

- I had nothing out. - Yeah.

- Years before I had anything out. - Wow.

- Yeah. - Good experience?

Great experience.

Actually learned how to put a show together watching him.

He would do things like cut the record off.

- He wouldn't let it play all the way. - Yeah.

- He-- he's playing, "setting it off, letting it--" - Kept it exciting.

- He kept it exciting. - Yeah.

So, he would just switch records,

"Setting it off, letting it off, beginning.

Mm, mm, mm."

And then go into another record, and it was like, "What?"

- Yeah. - Not that quick, but, you know.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like he was cutting records off,

going to another record, and it was driving the crowd insane,

'cause he had so many records he could play like that.

He didn't have one record.

I remember one time he had, like, the Top 8 at 8,

he had like six records out of the eight.

- Wow. - You know, when he had Smooth Operator

and Warm It Up, Kane, and he was the first rapper

that I was seeing, like, dominate radio

in this space like that, with like, more than one.

Like, Run-DMC dominated, they had Sucker M.C.

And then, they came back later and they had It's Like That,

or they had, like, one at a time.

He had multiple at the same time.

What's the first time you remember hearing hip-hop

from outside of New York?

I think it was Ice-T or--

either Ice-T or N.W.A, around-- around there.

'Cause Ice-T was out for a long time...

- He was out before them-- - ...but we-- we didn't really hear about him

- in New York so much. - Yeah.

- I wasn't aware of Ice-T until later. - Yeah.

When you heard N.W.A, what was your reaction?

This was incredible, it felt like Richard Pryor albums.

- Yeah. - It's-- I felt like,

should we be listening to this? It was like...

- Dangerous. - Dangerous. Yeah.

I actually visited the studio when they were making Straight Outta Compton.

- Really? - Yes.

- Wow. - That was the first time

I was really around a lot of guns in hip-hop.

- Mm-hmm. - Before that, it wasn't really like that.

Right.

A lot of people with a lot of guns.

- Right. - It was different.

Yeah. And you-- you listen

to those early Dre records, you realize the-- the influence

that Public Enemy and Hank Shocklee.

- For sure. - That's what he was-- he was trying to make.

"All of us are in da--"

[singing melody]

He was making Public Enemy,

and, like, he was-- he was emulating Hank Shocklee in it.

Yeah, and when Ice Cube

left N.W.A, he made a record with The Bomb Squad.

- Exactly. - Exactly.

He was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go to who you looking to."

- Yeah. - "Who you look up to,

- I'm gonna make the record with," and it worked. - Yeah.

It's also interesting that The Bomb Squad and Dre,

even though Dre was inspired by The Bomb Squad,

- they sound nothing alike, really. - Exactly, yeah.

- Yes, there's inspiration. - Uh-huh.

But it's a whole different thing.

Yeah, because his music bed,

where their music bed was James Brown.

- Yes. - It was the basic music bed

- that they drew from. - Yes.

He was drawing from Parliament-Funkadelic

'cause it's the music of the West Coast.

- Yes. - It's the sounds that he was listening to.

His application of it was over that music bed.

It was the same and it sounded different

because he had a-- he had a different music bed to it.

The other difference I'd say is that the Public Enemy sound,

Chuck liked the dissonance.

Like, Chuck liked that it was noisy and crazy.

- Mm-hmm. - And I don't think Dre's stuff is like that.

- Yeah. - Like, Dre may have had a high line.

- Right. - You know, a high synth line,

but it-- everything was smoother

- and nicer on the ears. - Right.

- Because his music bed was smoother. - Yeah.

- Whereas Chuck's was more like almost punk rock. - And-- and--

and it's sunnier.

The weather had a lot to do with it.

- Absolutely. - Who wants to be hearing high things

- when it's sunny outside? - Yeah.

You wanna... [singing melody]

♪ One, two, three, and to the four ♪

It worked because it's sunny out.

You can't be like, "All of us are in danger.

I want to fight--" it's like, that's...

Have you ever been misunderstood?

Yeah, sure. All the time. Yeah.

Rap is misunderstood, right?

So, my voice is definitely-- being one of the people

at the forefront of this genre, I've been misunderstood a lot.

- Mm-hmm. - Yeah, definitely.

Definitely. This music is just all about,

like, glorifying the lifestyle, or all about money and cars,

or all about being-- it's like, you're not listening.

Oh, Renegade is, "Do you fools listen to music

or do you skip through it," was like one of the lines,

is like everyone talk about. Like, it's one of the lines

that carried on, like, when people are trying to explain it.

It's like, "Do y'all listen to music

or do y'all skim through it?"

You're not listening, obviously,

because you're picking up on buzzwords.

- Yeah, taken out of context. - Everything taken out of context.

Money, Cash, Hoes, "Money, Cash, Hoes."

Listen to that song or 99 Problems.

- Yeah. - You would come out with a different thing.

That song is not about what you think it's about.

Yeah, it's easy to miss it if you're not paying attention.

- Mm-hmm. - The savvy necessary...

to understand the complexity of the verses.

I can't fault people.

- But they are missing out. - Mm-hmm.

- That's right. - They're really missing out.

That's great, that's-- that's a great thing to say.

- It's true. - Yeah, yeah.

- Most people don't know the lyrics. - No.

Listened to a song 1,000 times and don't know the lyrics.

You know, like a song like, um, Bridge Over Troubled Water.

- Mm-hmm. - I've been hearing that song my whole life.

I never knew the words.

And I did a cover of it with Johnny Cash,

and when he sang it, it was the first time

- I ever understood the words. - Right.

I nev-- it never registered before.

And part of the reason was Simon and Garfunkel

have these beautiful, like, operatic voices

and they're singing in a way where the sound of their voice

is so beautiful, it's not really about the words.

- Yeah. - It's about this beautiful melody.

And Johnny doesn't have that kind of a voice.

- Mm-hmm. - He's telling you a story.

- Mm-hmm. - And when you hear him tell the story,

- you know that story. - Right.

And you believe the story 'cause that's his gift

as an artist is if he says it, you know it's true...

- Right, right. - ...because he talks with the authority of truth.

So, I understood it for the first time,

- and it was a great experience. - "Johnny Cash, I'm a real G.

I cut myself today to see if I still bleed."

- It's on a song called Nickels and Dimes. - Yeah.

I was trying to think of that earlier when I was like,

I've always been a Johnny Cash fan, I'm--

"I cut myself today to see if I still bleed.

Johnny Cash, I'm a real G."

[both laughing]

Um, have you ever been betrayed?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. As I told you, my friend--

a friend of mine shot three times at me

from this distance. He tried to kill me.

It's a-- there's a really long story about entitlement,

was a reoccurring thing in-- in my life.

We had a town...

and these guys came to our town.

Guys I knew from the projects, from Marcy, from Brooklyn.

And we set 'em up with a situation.

And my friend after a while believed it was his situation,

but it was really the guys that was with us

that was helping them and working with them.

And I'm still working with the guy.

And he thinks, "Why are you trying to cut my throat?

You're working with my guy."

I'm like, "Yeah, but he's not your guy.

I gave you the guy," it was--

And then when I say it's-- it's a reoccurring thing,

'cause it happens within the music business.

When you hear Kanye made the song,

"I told Jay I made a song with Coldplay.

Next thing I know--" he's got a song called Big Brother.

"Next thing I know, he got a song with Coldplay."

It was over most-- if I betrayed him

by having a song.

Chris is my friend. I introduced him.

- [chuckles] - But that's how he says it.

And then, the world hears that, and they take it like,

"Jay fouled. Like, he tried to..."

It's not off the table that I'm doing a song with my friend

- 'cause you did a song. - Mm-hmm.

But that's the sort of thinking.

That's why I'm saying it's a reoccurring thing.

But you could put yourself in his shoes and understand it.

- I can. Doesn't make it right. - No.

- Yeah. - I-- I would say, we never really know what's right.

- Yeah. - You know what's right for you.

Yeah, but part of it is an entitlement.

- Mm-hmm. - We don't own people.

We don't own people.

He could do 1,000 songs with 1,000 artists.

- Whether you did the song first or not, who cares? - Yeah.

So, he my friend, has a guy.

He likes him 'cause the guy's good.

I put him with a guy that was amazing.

So, he thinks it's his guy.

And now, we're arguing over it.

And that's when the shooting happened,

and, like, we're-- we're fighting over that.

And the guy who was my best friend at the time,

was the guy who brought him down there against my wishes.

I already knew this was gonna happen.

It's like, that's not a person that you bring where we are.

You have to-- we're over here thinking every day,

- how do we stay out of trouble? - Yes.

How do we stay low-key? And this guy's Sonny...

from Godfather. Like, he's a hothead.

If any problem's gonna happen, he solves his problems...

his gun is coming out.

Hence the three shots, right?

Like, that's how he solves his problem.

With a problem, the gun is coming out, for sure.

And we're thinking men. We're different.

Yeah.

Don't bring that into this element.

But because he wanted to be cool with this guy,

he brings him down anyway against my wishes,

and this is how the whole thing happens.

So, betrayed by...

one friend I grew up with,

and my best friend at the time.

And that was just the beginning of betrayal.

But, yeah, I've been betrayed many, many, many times.

Did either of those ever get resolved or not?

- No, it... - Too much.

- Too much. - Yeah.

Too much. That's--

- That's too much on the thing. - Yeah. No, I understand.

[chuckles] Yeah. The best thing I could--

the best way-- and this is an act of friendship.

The best way I can resolve it is by not acting

- on doing something, too. - Yes.

- I just remove myself. - Yes, no revenge.

- No revenge. - Yeah.

- "I love you." - "Move on."

That's the highest form of love I can...

- Yeah. - ...I can-- I can show you.

Have you ever been the betrayer?

Yeah.

- Yeah, um... - What would motivate that?

No-- no malice, not-- not consciously.

You know, it has to be, again, emotional IQ,

like an oversight.

And I have a-- I have a thing where

if the communication isn't there,

a lot is left-- left to assumption.

So, if you put someone in a certain box

without having the conversation, you don't know what's happening.

And obviously, in relationships, that's easy, right?

Not to be flippant about it, but that was like, again,

not having the emotional IQ

to, like, properly nurture a relationship until now.

I'm just trying to, like, create a scenario

where someone could feel like that, like-- like I betrayed 'em.

It's like, if there's no communication

and I feel like someone's done something to me

and I put 'em in a-- a certain box,

everything's off the table.

I don't have any reason to be loyal to you.

But not like I'm trying to hurt you, just like,

- you're in a certain box-- - You've moved on.

And I move on like that. Irv Gotti one time.

Irv, who was like my DJ...

in London, like, it was like early-- early days.

I've done everything for Irv. I do a song,

and then his artists start talking crazy about me.

So, he's allowed that,

- you know what I mean? - Yeah.

So, then he tried to sign Nas, and at the height of our beef,

I did a commercial with 50 Cent.

That's betrayal because that's his-- that's his rival.

But in my-- in my estimation, I'm justified in it,

'cause I put him in a certain box already.

You already showed your hand and you already done moves

to take you out of the space of a person

that I have to have loyalty and integrity to.

But it's still betrayal.

Did you ever discuss it with him or no?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And better or not?

Did it ever get worked out?

Irv is like a serial line-stepper.

He'll never stop. It's just who he is.

Like, he'll calm down for a second, and the minute

he gets a little bit of air, he's gonna do whatever.

He's just ambitious that way.

He's gonna knock you-- he gonna knock all the china

off the table if you invite him to dinner.

- Just who he is. - And if you know who it is,

you know how to-- it's like--

- You're not invited to dinner. - Yeah.

- [chuckles] - And it's okay.

And that's okay. But we-- I still, you know.

A couple years ago, I help-- walked in a room

for a meeting for him to get a movie deal with BET.

- Yeah. - He's-- he's still my guy.

But it's-- it's changed and it's different.

And I know you're gonna knock the china off.

You can't help yourself.

Call me for anything, I'll-- I'll help him out.

But as far as like the dinner, no dinner.

- Understood. - Yeah.

[Rick] Tell me the Nas story.

How did the rivalry start and how did it end?

[Jay-Z] I think it just ended, it just...

It fizzled out at the end.

And I-- you know, the whole-- during the whole thing,

we had so much respect for one another.

Um, it got personal, but it wasn't really personal.

- Yeah. - It was just like more of competition.

- Yeah. - From my lens,

I came out with Reasonable Doubt,

and then Stoute was in both of our ear,

you know, who was a friend of both of ours, but he's--

he's a competitive chap, that Stoute. [chuckles]

And I come out with Reasonable Doubt.

Nas come out in '94, I come out in '96.

Nas was supposed to be on my first album.

He just never showed up to the studio.

And I'm not really a guy like that,

like you just say you come in, and don't come.

So, I-- I moved him over there.

- You can't count on him. - Can't count on him.

Not gonna ask him ever again.

- That was that. - Yes.

Never asking him again, but not a problem.

- No, no, completely understood. - We don't have a problem.

- Yeah. - Never asking him for anything again.

That's the end of it.

And then, on his second album...

he came out, and, like, one of his lyrics was like, uh--

everyone know I had the Lexus with the TV sets.

And he goes, "Lex with TV sets the minimum.

Ill sex, adrenaline." Like, he was taking,

what I perceived to be shots.

- So, that began like a Cold War. - Do you think it was shots?

I'm almost sure it was shots.

- Could be. - I'm 99% sure.

[chuckles]

And that-- that began like a-- like a Cold War of-- of sorts.

And then, you know, it just escalated to a point

where it was like a-- a full-on, like, just a battle.

- But no violence. - Yeah.

- Rap battle. - And-- rap battle.

And then, we just-- we just moved on.

And now, we're like, really good friends.

Would the competition have made you both better, you think?

Oh yeah, definitely, 'cause you had to be sharp.

- You rose to the occasion. - You had to rise to the occasion.

And to his credit, he really rose to the occasion.

I'll-- I'll say that.

You know, I don't think he was like--

I don't know how interested he was

at being a recording artist at that time.

Like, he would make a-- an album or something,

and he was just gone. He would disappear.

And then after that, he was making music on a regular basis.

I'm not saying that I was the cause of it,

but, like, you-- I'm answering the question.

Like, I'm sure that it-- it lit a fire under him.

And for me, I was rolling at the time.

This is Blueprint, you know, Volume Two era.

I was, you know...

selling five, six million records,

going on tour, I was, like, unstoppable.

And it definitely kept me sharp in that-- in that--

in that, uh, in that space.

How did you decide to do Life and Times One,

Two, and Three, as opposed to different album titles?

- Mm-hmm. - And how do you decide to do Blueprint One, Two, and Three?

Why the series and why the threes?

I think the series started out of-- of Godfather.

- I was a super fan of. - Yeah.

I think that the idea sparked from there,

and then once that happened, it was like,

okay, continue another series.

I remember on Blueprint Three--

- that's the one with the three bars on the cover? - Mm-hmm, yeah.

It felt like there was a shift in your sense

- of the graphics. - Mm-hmm.

Like, up until then, it was usually a photograph,

but this was like a piece of art on the cover.

- That's different. - Yeah. Yeah.

- Do you remember what changed? - Yeah.

I started getting into art at the time.

So, I start-- I was collecting art by then.

And my focus was becoming more worldly.

If you listen to that album, that's why all--

it has so many big records on that album

'cause my intention...

and this was a thing that was-- that's fascinating for me,

is even when you set your intention to do something,

even if you don't do the thing,

you typically reach your goal.

The intention that you set out, even if you don't do it

the way you thought you was gonna do it.

So, my intention with Blueprint Three

was to make a world album.

- I reached out to Femi. - Mm-hmm.

- Um, Fela's son. - Mm-hmm.

Called him up, "Hey, man, I'm gonna come there."

So, I was gonna go to Nigeria, go to all these places,

- connect with musicians in the town... - Yes.

- ...get all these sounds... - Yes.

...and create this album.

I end up having my biggest world album,

I make in New York.

A song about my hometown. I didn't have to go anywhere.

- I made it about my hometown. - Yes.

It was the song that went everywhere around the world.

My biggest-selling single, my first number-one single.

And it was the song about my hometown,

'cause I set the intention that I want to have a world album.

- And it was just a different version of a world album. - It's just a different version.

Like, I didn't do everything I set out to do.

- Yeah. - But it accomplished the same exact thing,

- which is amazing. - Yeah. Maybe better.

Yeah. Yeah.

Intention, that's how strong it is.

[Rick] Yeah. You have a line about, um,

- "This spiritual shit works." - [chuckles] Yeah.

Tell me about that line and what was going on.

You know, you grow up all the time

thinking like, "What you on, some spiritual shit,"

and bah-bah-bah, you know, in your immature stage.

And then at some point,

you find, you know, things happen.

Like, we're talking about coincidence,

things like that and, you know.

The more-- the more living you do,

the more you tap into yourself

and the more you notice something bigger than yourself.

And I was being funny there.

Like, you know, "This spiritual shit really works."

And you, like, you-- you're talking to yourself really, right?

In that line, I'm talking now to my wife,

"This spiritual shit really works."

But it's like, all the things that we didn't believe in

that we was doing. "Therapy?

"That's for crazy people.

Not gonna be in therapy. Are you..."

My nightmare is to talk to someone.

- Right? Back to-- - Yes.

Back to everything we said. That's-- that's--

If you wanted to-- If I had to, like,

describe a nightmare to me...

talking to a stranger about my most personal business,

- insane. - Sounds insane.

- That's insanity. - Yeah.

And a nightmare for me, personally,

as someone who come from where I come from...

- Yes. Yes. - ...never speaking about my personal business...

and never speaking to strangers.

- [laughing] - [Rick] Yeah.

It's like, everything.

So, like, that's the-- that's pretty much

what the line is saying, like, doing things

that you wouldn't have done, and be like, "Oh, man."

And you grow and be like, "No, actually,

that is the right-- that actually helped us."

[Rick] Yeah. Do you remember the first time

you sat down to do therapy?

I don't think it was in person, I think it was on the phone

- the first couple times. - Yeah.

And were you able to do it at first?

- No, I was-- the mo-- - Yeah.

- It was the most difficult thing ever. - Yeah.

I remember the first time I went to therapy.

It was a long time ago, but-- but I remember

I didn't know-- I didn't know how I felt.

I didn't know how to talk at all.

- I mean, I knew how to talk to my friends. - Yeah. Yeah.

But talking about me and what was going on in me,

I had no idea.

And then, like, your therapist, like, push you

to do, like, shit you would not do.

"Okay, well, have the conversation with your dad

if he was here."

I'm not gonna pretend on the phone

and be talking about that.

This shit is not natural. [chuckles]

It's just-- all-- everything was, like, just counterintuitive

to everything that I've done my whole life.

You know, and then when you surrender to the process,

it becomes a different thing, but that takes a minute. It's like...

- Absolutely. Absolutely. - Knocking the ice off the-- the sculpture,

and, you know, stripping the armor,

and all the cliches that people say.

But that's what that line's about.

[Rick] Tell me about, um, the difference

between your recording process

and your wife's recording process.

My wife's recording process is wild.

She'll record her vocal...

and then she'll stack it up a thousand times.

She'll try-- Her creativity,

a lot of it is in the melodies, and the harmonies.

She'll find some amazing harmonies,

and she'll stack that 30, 40, 50 times

just to find that right thing, and she'll try anything.

Like, she'll scream, "Ah!" [growls]

And it's-- for me, I'm like, it's kind of liberating.

I'm-- I'm kinda like, uh...

uh, like, "Damn, I wish I could do that."

I would be too conscious to try anything.

Like too-- too self-conscious...

- Yeah. - ...to try, uh, to be screaming.

"Ah!"

And then, she get these great pieces.

And mine's pretty much my voice straightforward.

And I'll play in that, you know. [vocalizing]

And I'll play with the music and melody

more so than characters.

I just say her thing is way more layered.

I do-- I'll run the verse.

Sometimes I'll run it down one time.

Maybe throw an ad lib on there, maybe not.

- Mm-hmm. - You know, depending on how raw

the vocal sounds, and-- and I'm done, you know.

- So yours, would you say is more spontaneous? - Yeah.

- Or improvisational? - Yeah.

And hers is much more layered, much more.

- Yeah. - Like, again, 30, 40 harmonies

- in different places. - And does she know the song

before she's singing it, or...?

- Yeah. Yeah. - So, it's already written.

- Yeah. - So, the processes are really different.

- Mm-hmm. - But you each found the way that works for you.

Yeah.

Tell me the feeling in your body

when you record something, like you finish doing a verse,

and you like-- like, you know you did good.

- Mm-hmm. - Tell me what that experience is.

- Euphoria. - Yeah.

Just like, it feels like you're solving something.

Like, yes, this didn't exist a second ago.

This is unbelievable, like, you know,

it's like this feeling of, like, accomplishment,

euphoria, like...

- and amazement. - Yeah.

Like, wow, where'd this come from?

You know, still reverence of it.

Like, still is like-- almost like I'm separated from it.

- Like, man, where'd this come from? - That's the beauty.

- That's the beauty, the reverence. - Yeah.

- What a great word. - Yeah.

- And then, we play it 1,000 times. - Yeah.

And the reverence is not of yourself.

- No, it's of the thing. - The thing.

- [chuckles] Yeah. - It's like this thing.

- Yeah. - Yes, it came out of me.

But this thing here,

can you believe that this is here in the world now?

Yeah. This didn't exist 20 minutes ago.

And listen, we're listening to it.

- Thank you. Thank you. - [chuckles] I do that often.

- Same. - Finish one little song, like...

- Thank you. - Thank you.

- Yeah. - Yeah.

Would you say the stakes are higher for you now in your life,

- or when you were on the street? - Oh, definitely on the streets.

- This is like... - Now you're playing with house money, it's okay?

Yeah, exactly. It's like, that is nothing.

You gonna cut me off the radio? Okay.

- [laughing] - That's-- that's why I was conditioned for that,

- 'cause it was like... - 'Cause now it's not life and death.

"What are you talking about? You gonna take me off the radio?

"They tried to take me off the Earth.

- Are you kidding me?" - Yeah.

Do what you would do, do as you may.

- Yeah. - It wasn't a threat to me.

- Yes. - The things that they believed

that they had weight over, their bargaining chip,

didn't mean a thing to me.

They lost all power when they were speaking to me

'cause they were speaking to somebody who was like,

"I don't care what you do."

It doesn't matter to me.

That's nothing compared to what this is.

I came here with nothing.

- I'm way up. - Yeah.

I'm way, way up.

Was there any point in time where you lost faith

in the process, where you thought,

"This is not gonna keep going good"?

Or, like, bumps in the road, or anywhere along the way

- where it felt like open-- - There was bumps,

but we just adjusted. Again, we were prepared.

This was nothing. This was like child's play

based on the things we had to overcome.

You know, Reasonable Doubt came out,

was a darling in-- on the streets,

and culturally, everyone loved it.

It didn't sell a bunch of records, but it was the album.

Then, we tried to create commercial success

with Volume One.

One-- One, I wish I could get back.

- We spoke about regrets, that's a-- - Yeah.

If I could get Volume One back, that one I would wanna do over.

I want a mulligan on that.

Because the first song I made for that,

which is the last song that Biggie heard,

was, Streets Is Watching.

And I remember playing Big Streets Is Watching,

and his mouth just like...

And then he said, "Play it again."

I played it again.

"Play it again." Played it about five times.

I gave him the tape.

"Just keep it, man, like..." And he looked at me.

And he was like...

"Whole album gonna sound like that?"

I said...

- [laughing] - Wow.

- I was like, "Yep." - Wow.

And then, you know, I made a couple records

trying to mimic that, like, commercial success,

and that wasn't for me.

- Yeah. - I think it came to, like,

number two, or something like that.

It was a graduation from the last album...

- Yes. - ...as far-- in terms of sale.

But as far as like the feeling,

it wasn't the same because everyone knew

I was trying to do something that wasn't naturally me.

So, right after that we went and we made a s--

the movie Streets Is Watching.

We got "The Streets" right back, so we took all the great records

and just got rid of the other-- and made it with those records.

So, Streets Is Watching was on there,

Where I'm From, uh, You Must Love Me.

- Yeah. - So, we took all the good pieces

and shot visuals around 'em.

- Yeah. - So, whenever there was like this second guessing

and things like that, those hardships,

we just adjusted,

because we were so used to adjusting to life.

It was just second nature to say,

"Okay, that's not working," not harp on that.

Yeah, you never felt like it was out of your control.

- Yeah. - Because you could just make the next move.

"Okay, what do we do? How do we fix this?

Let's get in the room. Let's talk about this."

Boom. Streets Is Watching thing.

Everyone loved it. It was like a straight-to-DVD...

- Yeah. - ...VHS underground thing

that just-- "Streets" was just back.

- And then, Volume Two. - And then after that, it was Lights Out.

And then Volume Two came, and I was like,

"Oh, okay. I know how to make songs."

It's not compromise to reach a certain audience.

It's not about being a commercial artist per se.

It's about melody.

I know how to make great melody, but it'd be about...

what I'm about.

I know how to source that.

And that's when Hard Knock Life came,

and then, Can I Get A... came.

Those big records from there, because now I got it.

I know how to make songs now.

Hard Knock Life was the first song of yours I heard.

That's the first one I remember hearing.

- Right. - Tell me the story of making that.

- Did you hear the sample first? - Yeah.

- It was a great story about that. - Tell me.

It's '97. I'm on Puffy No Way Out Tour.

I'm going on super early with the vest on,

you know, because it came a thing 'cause of the cover.

And they treated me horrible.

It was like closet for a dressing room and all that.

And Puff knew who I was.

So, he kept intervening like, "Yo, make sure," boom-boom.

But only so many times I'm not that kinda--

Remember, I'm a different guy,

so I'm not gonna let Puffy come talk to me.

And-- and at the time it was like getting--

I had a couple guys with me still,

so it was contentious.

I was like, "I'm not gonna mess this guy's tour up,"

you know, 'cause that's where this is going.

- Like, we're not having any disrespect. - Yeah.

And it's gonna be a fight one day,

and it's-- maybe a stabbing.

So, I tell him after New York, I'm leaving the tour.

When we get to New York, I'm playing New York,

and then I'm gone, I'm off the tour.

One of the last shows, I perform,

and I'm walking off stage and I hear...

[singing melody]

♪ It's a hard knock life ♪

...with this beat under it.

I'm like, literally, like, getting off the stage,

literally stopped everyone, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait."

- What's that? - What is that?

Yeah.

Get off the stage, around the back to the DJ.

- Kid Capri was the DJ. - Yeah.

He was in the house.

So, we go around. You know the hallways.

- Yeah. - We go, like, by the dressing rooms and all that.

And we go to the other opening. "Yo!

Come here." Comes down in the tunnel.

"Who is that?"

Mark 45 used to make these instrumentals.

- Yeah. - And one of the fa-- most famous one is that...

[singing melody]

- Yeah, yeah. - And he would just put out an instrumental.

And he made this instrumental with Hard Knock Life.

So, now, "Mark the 45 King." "Give me his number."

He was in Maryland or Virginia somewhere.

- He was-- you know, he was off the scene of music. - Yeah.

And...

I find him, I go...

I don't know if he-- I don't know if he came back

and we made it in New Jersey.

I'm almost sure that I went to him.

- Mm-hmm. - I didn't make this in the studio.

Like, I made it in like a house.

- Mm-hmm. - So, he must have come back

and we made it in-- in his house or somewhere.

And I knew it.

I got this tape. Now I start playing it.

I remember pulling up on Juan,

who was-- who was a continuing character in the story.

- Yeah. - And we were in-- he was higher than me.

He was in the truck, he was in the Range Rover.

I think I must have been in a-- like a coupe.

And I remember looking up to him and saying,

"This record is gonna take us all around the world.

It's gonna change our lives."

And he's listening to the song like, "You sure?"

I'm like, "Trust me, this is the one."

I remember playing that song for Lyor,

and Lyor says to me...

I'm excited. Like, "No, no, no.

You don't understand. This is it."

Remember, I did Reasonable Doubt.

- I did Volume One where I tried it. - Yes.

I'm like, "No, no, no. I got it now."

- Yes. - "I know what I'm doing."

- Yes. Yes. - "I got it. I got it."

And I played it.

And he was like,

"Jay, don't do that.

"You can't put that record out, it's a Broadway show.

"And it's so, like--

you're going to ruin your street credibility."

[laughing]

And I took the tape and I was like, "I'm gonna show you."

And, two, I don't have street credibility.

I'm from the streets.

- That's different. - It's different.

- Yes. - I don't have street credibility.

- No, you don't need it. - I don't need it.

- There's no such thing. - Yeah. Yes.

Either you're from the streets or not.

- Yeah, that tells you it's fake. - [chuckles] Yeah.

- Yeah, it's fake. - Yeah.

And left the office, and then...

- the rest happened. - Yeah.

First rap album, number one five weeks in a row.

- Amazing. - You know, et cetera, et cetera, six million.

And that was it. We were gone from there.

I remember when we finished our song for The Black Album,

we had worked-- I remember that week,

tried a few different things.

I was just making some different beats. I don't make beats. This was--

I hadn't made a hip-hop record in 10 years.

And I tried some different things, you know, like,

"Oh, try something else, try something else."

And then, finally, you came in and was like,

"Okay, let's do this one."

And then, you wrote the words. And then when we finished it,

I remember you saying, "Do you know what this is?"

- [chuckles] - And I said, "No."

- [both laughing] - And you're like, "We'll-- I'll show you."

It's like, "This is more important than you realize."

Mm-hmm.

And I had no idea, you know, I'm just making--

- I just make music. - Yeah.

But you definitely--

- you said it, you called it. - Feel those, you feel 'em.

- You feel 'em. - You called it.

Like, there's certain ones when you make.

I remember making "New York," and I called--

'cause I was going to put Mary on "New York" first.

- Yeah. - But because of the keys,

the... [singing melody]

- Yep. - I thought it would be a better performance

with Alicia because she can really play the piano,

and it was like such a major part of the song, the piano licks.

And I called her and I was like,

"I promise you, this song,

"if it's not considered better than the Frank Sinatra version,

"it would be talked about in the same way.

It would be up there."

- And I know that sound crazy. - Crazy.

She was like, "What?"

- Yeah. - Like, I'm telling you.

You know, you just know them certain ones.

You don't know all the time, you know.

I didn't know when-- I didn't know Big Pimpin'

- would be as big as it would be. - Yeah.

- I knew when I heard that. - I didn't know.

- I just thought it was-- I liked it. - I knew when I heard that one.

- Obviously, I thought it was great... - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

...and I love Pimp C's performance on there,

- and I thought it was-- - Yeah, it's just so catchy.

- It was so-- it was so good. - So crazy ca--

- and the video's so great. - But, and it's called "Big Pimpin'."

- Yeah. - You know, I didn't think that it would--

it would be a pop record.

- You know what I'm-- like, it's called "Big Pimpin'." - Yes, yes, yes.

And we're talking about BLADs, which is Blades.

They call 'em Blades 'cause they look

- like they chopping grass. - Mm-hmm.

- So, they call they rims blades. - Yeah.

So, I'm like, we're talking about rims.

The song is called "Big Pimpin'."

- Yeah. It's too inside. - It's too inside.

- Yeah. - I knew the feeling

of Hard Knock Life, everyone could relate to.

- Yes. - Everyone could relate to being an underdog

feeling like they getting, "instead of treated,

"they getting tricked.

Instead of kisses, we're getting kicked."

Who can't relate to that?

That's-- I knew everyone could relate to that.

You know, I knew everyone could relate to the feeling of hope

in Empire State of Mind.

"Oh, I can go somewhere and I can make it?"

- Yeah. - Like I could be some--

♪ New York, concrete jungle where dreams are made of ♪

"There's nothing you can't do."

You tell a person there's noth-- like my mother

saying, "You can be anything."

You tell a person that? Oh.

They'll believe it.

I knew that-- that-- that had a message

- that could relate to the entire world. - Yeah.

I did not know Big Pimpin'.

But that tells how the world changed because of hip-hop.

The world changed to where Big Pimpin'

- could be a hit song. - Yeah.

- Yes, this is true. - That's what happened.

Yeah.

How is success different

than you envisioned it before you had it?

Um...

it's-- yeah, it's way, way...

I-- it's-- there no way I can envision any of this.

I thought I was gonna have one gold album.

So, everything is different.

I envisioned having a gold album...

one album,

and being able to make a living.

I had no idea,

zero idea, that it--

it had no ceiling on it, no limits, no governor.

What? What is this thing?

How powerful is this music?

- Yeah. - How far can we go with this?

This-- this is-- this is wild.

I had no songwriter's heart, I had no aspirations for that.

By the way, I didn't have a dream to have a Grammy.

- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, most musicians' dream

is-- was like, "I wanna perform at the Grammys.

I wanna win a Grammy."

Obviously, a gold record,

like, that was part of the dream.

I had one of them.

I had a gold record, and everything else?

- Yeah, bonus. - Everything is a change

above the gold record. That was my goal and dream.

- Yeah. - That's it.

The experience of success,

if you envisioned what it would be like

to be successful in the world versus the actual experience

of being successful in the world...

is there any disconnect?

- I-- I can answer that in a different way. - Okay.

And I told my grandmother this.

My grandmother, again, and she's like where my mom

get it from, is a super proud woman.

You know, like, she can-- she'll have a heart attack quietly.

I remember, she was sitting on the step,

and I know that's not my grandmother.

She's sitting on the step for a little too long.

- Yeah. - She don't sit down for that long.

And I was like, "You okay? You good?"

I know. Going back to body language.

- She doesn't-- - Something's up.

Something's wrong. She don't do that.

But, you know, let me calm this thing down.

Remember, I told you how to turn it down

because we in the music business and I'm not gonna die.

So, let me turn it down. Maybe I'm reading

too much into it, maybe she's just--

she is 89 at the time.

- She's 96 now. - Wow.

She is 89. She's sitting down.

Some point, she gotta sit down. You know what, turn it off.

The next day, next afternoon when I'm driving,

me and B, we're going on a date.

We-- we're coming back from a date, my phone rings.

Grandma's having a heart attack. She's in the hospital.

I knew it.

Now, I'm mad at myself.

- I knew it. - Something was wrong.

I knew it something was wrong.

Artery-- arteries was clogged,

so she wasn't getting all the proper...

- Mm-hmm. - ...circulation, so she wasn't getting the right oxygen,

and she was tired.

So, she won't tell you when she's sick.

Yeah.

So, the way I explained it to her was like,

you know, success for me, I never wanted to be successful.

That was not part of the deal. I never wanted to be famous.

In fact, it's a nightmare...

for me to be famous, 'cause that's not who I am.

I don't wanna be famous. I never wanted to be famous.

I never wanted to do interviews.

I never wanted to do any of that stuff.

I never let cameras go around me.

Became part of the thing. It became part of it.

So, part of how I rationalize success is...

I can get you any doctor in the world.

That's how I weigh it against paparazzi

waiting outside my hospital when I have my daughter,

and I can't have that moment to myself,

where I gotta go hide in the Hamptons

so I can just enjoy my daughter outdoors

because I can't take her outside

because there's 50 people outside.

So, in order for me to stay sane,

I weigh it against, that's fine, because you know what?

The good side of this, it afford me access

to any doctor in the world.

You gotta tell me. You have to let me know.

- And that's how I view success. - Mm.

- Mm-hmm. - You see the-- it's funny.

It's a funny way to think about it, of...

it gives you acces to things

you wouldn't have access otherwise.

- Mm-hmm. - And the price you pay

is a nightmare...

- Yeah. - ...for you.

Yeah, and that's nothing. I can do it.

And be-- if I can do this for you...

I can deal with that all day long.

- It doesn't bother me. - It's the whole benefit

- of your position. - It's the whole benefit.

Some people like it.

- And some people like it. - Some people like it.

- And some people like it. - Some people are driven by that.

- Exactly, yes, a lot of people. - And you're not one of those people.

- Yeah. - A lot of people, and I'm just not one of those people.

So, this is the thing that makes-- helps me.

- So, allow me to-- - You can do good.

- Allow me. - Yes.

- Allow me to do that. - Yeah.

- [chuckles] - [♪ "Anything" playing]

♪ Uh-huh, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ Duro, you gotta let it bump, unh ♪

♪ Unh, unh, like that, yeah ♪

♪ Come on, bring the chorus in ♪

♪ I'd risk everything ♪

♪ For one kiss, everything ♪

- ♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪ - ♪ Anything? ♪

♪ Anything for you ♪

♪ Yeah, I'd do a bid, lose a rib ♪

♪ Bust a cap, trust in that ♪

♪ Run up to heaven doors, exchange my life for yours ♪

♪ Leave a steak out the door, mi casa su casa ♪

♪ Just remember to turn the lights off in the hall ♪

♪ My brother from another pop minus one shot ♪

♪ We Nino and Gee Money, man, we all we got ♪

♪ From the stoop to the big dudes ♪

♪ Stopping us from playing hoops ♪

♪ And us getting mad, throwing rocks off the roof ♪

♪ Straight thugging, man, I thought we would never progress ♪

♪ But look at us now, man, we're young execs ♪

♪ My nigga Dame, my nigga Biggs ♪

♪ My nigga Ty, my nigga High, my nigga Gotti ♪

♪ We embody all that's right with the world ♪

♪ No matter how pretty she is, you never liking my girl ♪

♪ That's how we run, when you ain't around ♪

♪ I spank your son, keep him in line ♪

♪ If you should die, I'll keep him like mine ♪

♪ God forbid, keep this in mind, my nigga ♪

♪ I'd risk everything ♪

♪ For one kiss, everything ♪

- ♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪ - ♪ Anything? ♪

♪ Anything for you ♪

♪ I'd risk everything ♪

♪ For one kiss, everything ♪

- ♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪ - ♪ Anything? ♪

♪ Anything for you... ♪