All language subtitles for [English (auto-generated)] Elon Musk A Different Conversation w Nikhil Kamath Full Episode People

Heat. Heat.

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Our

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audience is largely wannabe

entrepreneurs in India. And I feel like

all of us have so much to learn from you

because you've done it so many times

over in so many different domains.

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>> Yeah.

>> Uh so we will speak to them today and I

will try and center all my questions in

that direction so they can take

advantage of this conversation and maybe

start [music] take a chance and build

something.

You want a coffee?

>> Um, sure. Why not?

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Are we going to be talking for a

while? [laughter]

>> I hope we are.

>> Okay. Good. Sure.

Um,

>> Mna,

>> may I trouble you for a coffee?

>> Can we get another coffee?

>> Anything? Uh, cappuccino, I guess. All

right.

>> Are you a coffee drinker, El? Oh,

>> yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I copy once

usually in the mornings, you know.

>> Okay. [laughter]

>> One a day kind of thing.

>> Yeah, pretty much.

>> You want to wait for it?

>> No, I'm I'm I'm good.

>> [laughter]

>> The first thing I must say is you're a

lot bigger and bulkier, muscular than I

would have thought you are.

>> Oh.

>> Oh, stop. You must make me blush.

[laughter]

>> Really? Seriously?

>> Yeah. I mean, look on the internet. I'm

small, you know. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Essentially,

what percentage of internet

>> Yeah. is spend on Twitter. Is there a

number to it on X?

>> Well, so we have like about 600 million

monthly users.

>> Um well, although it it can spike up if

there's if there's some major event in

the world, it can get up to I don't know

800 million or or or a billion.

>> Um if there's some major event in the

world. So, uh so so that there's I don't

know 250 300 million per week type of

thing. It's a pretty decent number. It

tends to be

>> um readers, you know, people that read

words. [laughter]

>> Um you know, so

>> do you think that'll change? Um yeah, I

mean there's

uh there's certainly a lot of video on

on um on the X systems, but uh at this

point increasing amounts of video, but I

think where where uh the X network is

strongest is among people who who think

who think a lot and read a lot, you

know. So it's that's where it's going to

be strongest because we have words

[laughter]

and and you know so um am among readers

writers and thinkers I think X is number

one in the world

>> as far as social media goes the form

factor

if you had to wager a guess for tomorrow

>> how much is text how much is video

I've heard you speak about maybe voice

and hearing being the next form of

communication with AI, what happens to X

in its true form? How does it evolve?

>> Yeah. So, I I do think most interaction

is going to be video in the future. Uh

most interaction is going to be uh

real-time video with AI. So, real-time

video comprehension, real-time video

generation. Um that's going to be most

of the load. And that's how it is for

most of the internet right now. It's um

most of the internet is video. Um text

is a pretty small percentage but the the

text tends to be higher value generally

or more it's more densely compressed

information like um

yeah so

but if you say like what is the most

amount of bits generated and compute

spent it's certainly going to be video

>> so I used to be a shareholder of X a

very small one okay

>> and I got paid when you bought it when

you bought Twitter and you made it

U

happy decision. Glad you did it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was important. Um

you know, I felt like uh Twitter was

heading in or had had gone in a

direction that had sort of a more of a

negative influence on the world. Um you

know, it was it was I mean, of course,

this depends on one's perspective. Some

people will say, well, actually, they

liked the way it was and now they don't

like it. Um but the I think the

fundamental thing was that um Twitter

was amplifying

I would say a fairly pretty far left by

most people's standards in the world's

ideology because of where it was based

in San Francisco. So and and they

actually suspended a lot of people on

the right. Uh um so

uh so from their perspective even

someone in the center would be would be

far right. If you're if you're far left

anyone in the center is far right

because you're you it's just a political

on the political spectrum they're um

they're just as far left as you get in

the United States and in San Francisco.

So what I've tried to do is just restore

it to be balanced and and uh centrist.

So there haven't been any left-wing

voices that have been suspended or you

know banned or uh deamplified or

anything like that. Now some of them

have chosen to just go go somewhere

else. Um but uh but at this point it is

the the the operating principle of the

of the X system is to adhere to any

country's laws but not to put our thumb

on the scale beyond the laws of a

country.

When I think of social media, um,

>> thank you. When I think of social media,

Elon,

I feel like even data suggests that the

current incumbents seem to be losing

traction amongst the youngest of

audience.

>> Yeah.

>> Even platforms like Instagram, uh, I

mean, they're not exactly like Twitter,

but platforms across the board. If one

had to rework social media and build

something bottom up, what do you think

could work for the world of tomorrow?

>> Well, I mean, I I don't think that much

about

um about social media to be frank. I

mean, it's I can mostly just want to

have have something where there's um a

in the case of of X, kind of a global

town square,

>> uh where where people can say what they

want to say uh with words, pictures,

video um where there's a secure

messaging system. We've recently added

the ability to to do audio and video

calls. Um, so you're really trying to

bring the the the world the world

together into um a a collective

consciousness and um

that that's I guess different from just

saying like what is the most dopamine

generating video stream that one could

make? Um which uh you know you I think

can be a little bit of brain rot

frankly. um you know, if if you're just

watching videos that just cause dopamine

hits one after another, um but lack

substance, then I think those those are

not great that that's not a great way to

spend time. Um but I I do think that's

actually what a lot of people are going

to want to watch. Um, so if you say like

total internet usage, it's going to

probably be optimizing for, you know,

neur neurotransmitter generation, like

it it there's somebody getting like a a

kick out of it,

>> right?

>> But it's it's it's it becomes like a

drug type of thing. So,

>> um, but I'm not really after

my goal is not to do that. I I guess I

could do that if I if I wanted to, but

um uh that's I I just want to really

have um a a global platform that brings

together

like like I said like it's come becomes

as close to sort of a collective

consciousness

uh of humanity as possible. Um and um

you know like and one of the things that

we've introduced uh for example is

automatic translation. So um so because

I think it would be great to bring

together uh what what people say in many

different languages um and but

automatically translated for the

recipient. So you have the collective

consciousness not not just of of say

people in a particular language group

but you have

um the thoughts of of people in you know

every language group. And why is that

important collective consciousness to

have one platform?

>> I I guess uh

yeah why is that important? Um

I I guess it's you could also say like

like why uh

you know if you consider humans like

humans are composed of around 30 to 40

trillion cells

um

and

you know there's trillions of synap

synapses in your in your mind Um

but but but there's there's no the why a

bit. I mean I guess it's just so we can

increase

our understanding our our understand

increase our

understanding of the the universe. Um,

so

I I guess I like I had this sort of

question about what's the meaning of

life, you know, um like why

why is anything important? Um

um you know why why why are we here? Um

what's the origin of the universe? Where

what is the end? Um

What are the questions that we don't

even know to ask? Um,

and probably the questions we don't even

know to ask are the most important ones.

Um, so I'm just trying to I guess

understand what's going on. What is what

is going on in this reality? Um,

is is this is this reality? And um

[laughter]

>> um

>> and where did you get when you asked

what is the point of life?

>> Yeah. So I

I came to the conclusion that um which

is somewhat in the Douglas Adams

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy school

of thought which is

>> what he do.

>> Yeah. He you know he sort of Hug's Guide

to the Galaxy is like a book on

philosophy disguised as humor.

>> Yeah.

>> And

the that's where you know Earth turns

out to be this computer to understand to

get to figure out the answer of the

meaning of life

>> and it comes up with the answer 42

>> and but then it's like what the heck

does 42 mean? Um, and it turns out,

well, actually the hard part is

the question, not the answer. And for

that, you need a much bigger computer

than Earth. That's so basically what

Douglas Adams was saying is that we we

actually don't know how to frame the

questions properly. Um, and um, and so,

so I think by expanding the scope and

scale of consciousness, we can better

under understand what questions to ask

about the answer that is the universe.

Do you believe the collective

consciousness of society?

You know when when I I was watching this

movie recently called the gladiator

Russell Crowe. Have you seen it?

>> Yeah.

>> In Gladiator in Rome when people are

fighting

>> Yeah.

>> and the crowd is cheering when people

kill each other.

>> Uh

the collective is very much like the

mob. It doesn't have

nuance in its opinion per se.

>> Well, I that's a particular kind of mob.

I mean, the sort of going there to see

people kill each other, you know.

>> Do you suspect the society we live in

today is very different?

>> Well, we don't we don't generally uh at

this point we don't,

you know, go watch people kill each

other. Uh

>> maybe [laughter]

some kind of euphemism of that

>> sports, I suppose.

Uh so people do sports without um

where teams attempt to defeat each other

>> but minus the death

>> right.

>> Um so

just going back to the

uh consideration of a human we all

started out as one cell but now we are

over 30 trillion cells. Mhm.

>> Um

and uh

but I think most people like feel like

they're one one body like you know

usually your right hand's not fighting

your left hand type of thing you know

>> to to sort of cooperate. Um your mind is

uh

you know

just a vast number of neurons but but

most of the time it doesn't feel like

there's you know a trillion voices in

your brain. Hopefully not. [laughter]

Um

so so there there's there's clearly

more that happens when you have

trillions of cells uh working as a

cellular collective than say one cell or

um a a small you know small

multisellular creature. There's there's

clearly some something different that

happens like you can't talk to a

bacteria you know.

>> Yeah.

>> It's very silent.

um they just sort of wiggle around and

you know from their perspective I don't

know I sort of what is what is life like

from the perspective of a sing of of an

amoeba you know um but I know you can't

talk to amoeba like they don't talk

whack

>> um but you can talk to humans

>> so there's just something obviously

qualitatively fundamentally different um

for humans once you have a large number

of cells and you know sufficiently large

brain type of thing. There's you can now

talk to humans

>> and they they and they can say things,

they can produce things. Um but uh

bacteria are not going to produce a

spaceship for example. Um but humans

can.

So I think there's something

qualitatively different that also

happens when there's a collection of

humans. In fact, in fact, it's safe to

say that a single human cannot make a

spaceship. I could not make a spaceship

by myself. But but uh with a collection

of humans uh we can make spaceships. So

there's there's something obviously

qualitatively different

um about

a collection of humans. In fact, it

would be impossible for me to learn all

of the areas of expertise. There

wouldn't be enough time in one lifetime

to even learn all the things before I

was dead.

>> So um so you really fundamentally have

to have a collection of humans to make a

rocket.

Um

then I think there probably some other

scaling

qualitative scaling things that happen

when you have groups of humans and then

if the

quality of the interaction or the

quality of the information flow

um is the the better it is the more the

human collective will achieve.

Um, and I'm I like said I'm just curious

about the nature of the universe and and

I think if we it's safe to say like if

if we increase the scope and scale of

consciousness, we're much more likely to

understand the nature of the universe

than if we reduce it.

>> Is that a bit like spirituality? A lot

of people talk to me about spirituality,

>> right?

>> I still don't know what it actually

means. Like I keep asking them, what do

you mean?

What do you mean? [laughter]

>> Uh yeah, I mean a lot of people have

spiritual feelings,

>> right?

>> Um and um and I wouldn't try to deny

that those spiritual spiritual feelings

are real to them. Um but it's it's uh

it doesn't entirely translate. I can't

just because somebody else has a

spiritual feeling doesn't mean that I

would have that spiritual feeling. Um so

um you know I I tend to be kind of

physics pulled which is like if

something has predictive value

>> then

I you know I'll pay more attention to it

than if it doesn't have predictive value

>> right

>> u so

you know physics I would say is the

study of that which has predictive value

uh I think it's pretty good definition

um so

>> my primary job elon is a stock broker

and stock investor Okay.

>> There is no predictive value. Nobody

knows what will happen tomorrow.

>> Well, but I think you can generally say,

you know, um that

um if if if it's long-term for a

company,

>> then you can say like, well, does that

is that do you like the products or

services of that company? And is it

likely to

>> do you like the the product roadmap?

like it seems like they they make great

products and they're likely to make

great products in the future. If that's

the case, then I would say that's

probably a good company to invest in.

Um, and I think you also want to believe

in the the team. So, if you think, well,

that's a talented and hardworking team.

They make good products today. They seem

to be still motivated to make things in

the future, then I'd say that's that's a

good company to invest in.

>> Um, fair point.

>> Yeah. And now that that that that

won't solve for the daily fluctuations

which happen and sometimes are pretty

extreme. Uh but over time it would that

that is the the right way to invest in

stocks because a company is just a group

of people assembled to create products

and services. So you have to say what

are how good are those products and

services? Are they likely to continue to

improve in the future? If so, then you

should buy the stock of that company and

and then don't worry too much about the

daily fluctuations,

>> right?

What's got you most excited now, Elon,

in terms of all that you're building?

You're doing so much. So, let me just

preface and contextualize

who is watching this. Uh, our audience

is largely wannabe entrepreneurs in

India.

>> Okay.

uh really ambitious, really hungry, want

to

take the risk and build something and I

feel like all of us have so much to

learn from you because you've done it so

many times over in so many different

domains.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh so we will speak to them today and I

will try and center all my questions in

that direction so they can take

advantage of this conversation and maybe

start take a chance and build something.

>> Okay. Sure. Um

yeah, I guess the most important thing

to do is just

make useful products and services. Um

>> yeah. Um

>> which one of all that all the products

and services that you're building has

got you most excited today?

Well, I I think that there's

increasingly a a convergence actually

between SpaceX and Tesla and XAI

um in that if the future is um solar

powered AI satellites, which it pretty

much needs to be in order to um in in

order to harness a non-trivial amount of

the energy of the sun, you have to move

to solar powered AI satellites in deep

space. um which somewhat is a confluence

of Tesla expertise and SpaceX expertise

um

and XAI on the the AI front. So

it does feel like over time there's

somewhat of a convergence there. Um but

all the companies are doing doing great

things. Um very proud of the teams. They

do great work. Um so you know we're

making great progress with Tesla on the

autonomous driving. I don't know if

you've tried the self-driving.

>> Mhm.

>> Have you tried it?

>> I've tried it in the Whimo, not in the

Tesla.

>> Yeah, it's worth [laughter]

>> uh We actually have it here in in

Austin, so you can

>> I'd love to try it.

>> You can you can literally just download

Tesla app.

>> Yeah.

>> And I and I think I think it's open to

to any to anyone. Definitely try it out.

I mean,

>> you know, let me know how it goes. Um

but uh you know we've made a lot of

progress with electric vehicles with uh

battery packs and solar and but and very

much so with self-driving. So basically

real world AI um Tesla is the world

leader in real world AI I would say. So,

um, and then we're going to be making

this robot Optimus, which is, you know,

starting production hopefully some next

year, um, at scale. Um, and I think

that's going to be pretty cool. That'll

be like I think everyone's going to want

their own personal C3PO R2-D2,

>> you know, helper help a robot. Like, it

would be pretty cool. Um and then SpaceX

is doing great work with the Starlink

program, you know, providing uh lowcost,

reliable uh internet throughout the

world.

>> Hopefully India. So [laughter]

we'd love to be operating in India. That

would be great. We're operating in 150

different countries now with Starlink.

>> Can you give me a bit about Starlink and

how the tech works

>> cuz somebody I was speaking to uh I

don't know if you know this company

called meter out of San Francisco. uh

they're trying to replace network

engineers, but

>> I know it now.

>> Um so he was telling me about how in

densely populated areas, Starlink works

differently than it might be in a place

with not as many people. Can you explain

how it works?

>> Yeah, so Starink um there's several

thousand satellites in low Earth orbit

and they're moving around 25 times the

speed of sound um in these, you know,

they're zipping around the Earth

basically. And um they're uh they're at

an altitude of about 550 km.

>> Mhm.

>> Um which is called generally low earth

orbit. Um because they're they're at low

earth orbit, they're um the latency is

is low like the the distance because the

distance is is not that far compared to

a geostationary satellite uh 36,000 km.

Um so you've you've got um

thousands of satellites providing uh low

latency high-speed internet throughout

the world and

um and they are interconnected as well.

So there's there are laser laser links

between the satellites. So it forms sort

of a a laser mesh so that the if if

let's say uh fi let's say if cables are

damaged or cut like fiber cables the

satellites can communicate between each

other um and provide connectivity uh

even if uh there's there's a uh the

cables are cut so for example when the

red sea cables were cut uh I think a few

months ago

>> the satellite the the stinking satellite

network continued to function without a

hitchh

>> so it's it's particularly helpful for

disaster areas. So, but if an area has

been hit with uh some kind of natural

disaster, floods or fires or

earthquakes, that that tends to damage

the the ground infrastructure. Uh but

the Starink satellites still work. So,

um and generally when whenever there's

some sort of natural disaster somewhere,

we we always provide people with free

Starlink uh internet connectivity. You

know, we don't want to charge we don't

take advantage of a a tragic situation.

So, um, so always, you know, if there's

natural disasters, we like, okay, it's

it's free during the natural disaster.

You know, we we don't want to say like,

um, you know, put a pay wall up while

somebody's trying to get help. That

would be wrong. Um, so so that's it's

it's it's a very robust system. It's

it's complimentary to ground systems

because uh the satellite beams um work

best in uh sparsely populated areas. Um

but because you you've got a you've got

a satellite beam, it's a pretty big

beam. So you have a and you have a fixed

number of users per beam. So, um, it

tends to be very complimentary to the

groundbased cellular systems because

those are those are very good in cities

because you've got these cell towers

that are, you know, only a kilometer

apart type of thing.

>> But, uh,

but but but cell towers tend to be

inefficient in the countryside. So in in

uh rural rural areas is where you tend

to have the worst internet because uh

it's very very expensive and difficult

to lay to do all these do all the fiber

optic cables uh or to have um high

bandwidth cellular towers. So Starlink

is very complimentary to the existing

telecom companies. Um it it basically

tends to serve the serve the least

served which I think is is good. Um

that's um

>> will that change tomorrow? Like today as

you explained the the beam is quite

broad and it can't work in a densely

populated area with high buildings

maybe.

>> But can that change and tomorrow it

becomes really efficient

in a densely populated city where it is

competitive with the local network

providers?

>> It's it's unfortunately so the physics

don't allow for that. So

>> we're too far away. Um so at 550 km and

even if we try to reduce it which about

as low as we can go is about 350 km

still very far away you you you've just

you can think of like a like a

flashlight which is it's you know that

flashlight's got a cone and and and that

that cone is is coming at you know today

550 km in the future we try to get down

to 350 km but we can't beat something

that's 1 kilometer away which the cell

tower uh physics is not on our side

here,

>> right? So it's not it's not physically

possible for us for stalling to serve uh

densely populated cities like you can

serve a little bit maybe 1% of the

population and sometimes people get you

know even in in crowded cities there

might be you know no fiber link up their

road like sometimes somebody's on a

culde-sac or something or in a a place

in in cities there are sometimes

underserved areas for random reasons and

so can serve like said maybe 1% or 2% of

of of a densely populated city. Um, but

it can be much more effective in like I

said in rural areas where the internet

connection is much worse and often

people either have sometimes no access

to internet or it's extremely expensive

or the quality is not very good.

So

>> if I were to ask you to wager a guess

Elon, do you think India will go down

the path of urbanization like China did

with more people moving in from rural

economies to urban centers? Um or do you

think we

>> I suppose some some amount of that has

happened, right? Um I mean I'm actually

I I'm curious to sort of ask you some

questions as well. Is because of course

isn't isn't that the trend or is it not

the trend in India?

It is the trend largely. I think a

little bit changed during co when a lot

of urbanization slowed down and that was

not organic. It was very artificially

artificially manifested.

>> Right?

>> But one does question that

with AI if productivity were to go up

and I heard you speak about UHI instead

of UBI.

>> Yeah. Uh

>> I think I think it will be universal

high income.

>> In a world like that, I wonder if more

people want to live in cities which are

always going to be more polluted

and not offer the quality of lifestyle

that a rural environment might.

>> Well, I guess it's up to some people

want to be around a lot of people and

some people don't. You know, it's going

to be a maybe a matter of personal

choice. But I think in the future it

won't be I I think it won't be the case

that you have to be in a city for a job.

Um because I I think I I my prediction

is in the future working will be

optional,

>> right?

>> We seem to be moving from not in India

but in in some parts of the west from 6

days to 5 days to 4 days to three.

>> Uh not me. [laughter]

>> I think the Europeans.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh [laughter]

um yeah. Yeah. There's I mean I I think

if you're trying to make a startup

succeed or you're trying to make a

company do very difficult things then

you you you definitely need to put in

serious hours. I think that's

>> right.

>> That's how it goes.

>> And if we were to move from 5 to 4 to 3

days, how do you think society changes

when people have to work half the week?

What do they do with the other half?

Well, I I think it'll actually be that

people don't have to work at all in the

in the um and it may not be that far in

the future. Maybe only I don't know 10 I

say less than 20 years.

In less my prediction is less than in

less than 20 years working will be

optional. working at all will be

optional

like a hobby

pretty much

>> and that would be because of increased

productivity meaning people do not have

to work

>> they don't have to I mean look this

obviously people can play this back in

20 years and say look Elon made this

ridiculous pred prediction and it's not

true but I think it will turn out to be

true that in less than 20 years maybe

even as little as I don't know 10 or 15

years um the advancements in AI and

robotics will

bring us to the point where working is

optional

um in the same way that like say you

could you can grow your own vegetables

in your garden or you could go to the

store and buy vegetables

you know

>> it's much harder to grow your own

vegetables

But but you know some people like to

grow their vegetables which is fine you

know um but it it'll be optional in that

way is my prediction.

>> If one were to argue that humans are

innately competitive and everything is

relative from the time of hunters.

Somebody wanted to be the alpha hunter

or the biggest farmer. If everybody gets

a universal high income and everybody

has enough

>> what do you compete for? Uh, it would be

relative, right? Like if we all had

enough, enough is not enough.

>> Um,

yeah. I I guess I I I'm not exactly

sure. Um, cuz we're we're really headed

into

the singularity as it's called, which

you know, they refer to AI sometimes as

the kind of like a black hole, like a

singularity. You don't know what happens

after the event horizon. It doesn't mean

that something bad happens. It just

means you don't know what happens. Um,

so

like I'm I'm confident that if AI and

robotics continue to advance, which they

are advancing very rapidly, like I said,

working will be optional. Um, and people

will have any goods and services that

they want.

Um, if you if you can think of it, you

can have it type of thing. Um

and but then at a certain point

AI will actually saturate on anything

humans can think of

and then at at that point it it becomes

a situation where AI is doing things for

AI and robotics are doing things for AI

and robotics because they've run out of

things to do to make the humans happy

you know because there's a limit you

know they say like there's only people

can only eat so much food or

you know if but I it's going to be I

think if you can think of it you can

have it will be the future

>> you know the Austrian school of

economics if you go back in time they

were the digression from Adam Smith

>> they talk about the marginal utility of

everything

having one of something has value having

two of the same thing has lesser value

and having 10 of the same thing has no

value

>> yes

>> so if we could have everything we wanted

10 marshmallows. I mean, who wants that?

[laughter]

>> One's one's plenty.

>> It's like the marshmallow taste. You're

like, you can have two marshmallows

later or one marshmallow now. And I'm

like, I'll have one marshmallow. I don't

want two marshmallows.

>> That's interesting. [laughter]

>> What would you pick?

>> Well, I I don't One marshmallow is

enough. I always question marshmallows

as being like not the most, you know,

the best candy, you know?

>> Yeah. [laughter]

Well, I don't yearn for marshmallows.

>> I think you're the best.

>> Who does? [laughter]

>> You're the best testament to the

marshmallow experiment. I think

>> I suppose so. Well, I mean, like delayed

gratification essentially.

>> Yeah.

>> You were able to delay it more than

most. You know, I have a tattoo which

says delay gratification. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Wow. Okay. What's this? Okay.

You're really taking the marshmallow

test.

>> I feel like I can't remember when I'm

trading or when I'm buying into

>> delay gratification. Yeah. Yeah,

>> it helps.

>> Wow. Okay, that's a good

>> It's pointing at me, so it reminds me of

[laughter]

>> Okay. Well, that's it's good advice. I

mean, you can't miss it.

>> If you could get [laughter]

>> If you could get a tattoo, what would

you get?

>> I guess maybe my kids' names or

something,

>> right?

>> Why do you like the letter X as much as

you do?

Well,

[laughter]

I mean, yeah, it's a good question.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder what what's

wrong with me. Um [laughter]

um so um I mean it started off with

where I think so way back in ancient

times in 99

>> [laughter]

>> the pre the pre-Cambian era when there

were only sponges. Um the [laughter]

I I there were only three onelet domain

names um

>> and I think it was XQ and Z and uh and I

was like okay I want to have create this

place where it's the um

the financial crossroads or like the the

financial exchange you know um

>> um it's essentially solving money from

an information theory standpoint where

the current banking system is is a large

number of uh heterogeneous databases

with batch processing that uh are not

secure. Um, and if we could have a

a a sort of a single database that was

real time and uh secure, that would be

more efficient from a monetary from an

information theory standpoint than, you

know, a large number of heterogeneous

databases that batch process very slowly

and securely. Um, so, um, so that that

was that was sort of X.com way back in

the day, which kind of, um, became

PayPal. Um,

and then um,

and was acquired by eBay. And then eBay,

someone reached out from eBay and said,

"Hey, do you want to buy the domain name

back?" And I was like, "Sure." You know,

and so I had the domain name for quite a

while. Um

and then uh

and then yes then I was like well maybe

this may maybe this acquiring Twitter

would also be an opportunity to

revisit the original plan of of X.com

which is to create this um

this like clearing house of

of financial transactions like like

basically to create a more efficient

datab money database is a way to think

about it is um like like people like

money is really a an information system

for labor allocation like people think

sometimes think money is power in and of

itself but it it doesn't it doesn't

really it's if there's no labor to

allocate it it's meaningless. So if you

were to be on a desert island with a

trillion you know dollars or whatever

doesn't matter.

>> Oh yeah. Why speculate when you can be

real?

>> [laughter]

>> I just hope I don't end up on a desert

island, you know, it's not going to be

very useful to me. Um, but but it

illustrates my point that if [laughter]

if you're if you're stranded on a on a

on a desert island with a trillion

dollars, it's not useful because there's

no there's no labor to allocate. You

just allocate yourself. So um

so so it's so anyway so it's so this

longwinded way of saying that it's uh

it it's just really like

I'm I'm just kind of slowly building

revisiting this idea that I had 25 years

ago to create a more efficient

um

money database. Um,

and and if that's successful, people

will use it. If it's not successful,

they won't use it. Um, you know, and and

and then I also like the idea of like

sort of having a unified

app or or or website or whatever where

you can do like it can you can do

anything you want there. Um, so you

know, sort of China has this with WeChat

somewhat, you know, where you can

>> you you can exchange information, you

can publish information, you can

exchange money, uh, you can um, you

know, you sort of people kind of live

their life on WeChat in in China. It's

and it's it's it's quite useful, but

there's no u there's no real WeChat

outside of China. Um, so it's like it's

kind of WeChat++

I'd say is is the idea for for X.

Anyway, so then, uh, Space Exploration

Technologies is the full name of the

company, but I was like, that's too

much. That's a mouthful. So I was like,

we'll just call it SpaceX, like FedEx

for space.

>> Um, it just hasn't happens to have X in

the, you know, cuz exploration has an X,

but you know, and I was like, well, I

like the idea of capitalizing the X just

artistically. So, um, so then, uh,

that's why it's SpaceX. But, uh, and

then, um, what else have we got? We got

a kid.

>> Uh, he's called X2. Um, but that's his

mother is the one that named him X.

[laughter]

>> And I said, you know, people are really

going to think I've got a thing about X

if we name our kid X2, you know, and and

I I said to her, like, look, I do have

X.com, you know. [laughter]

So, people are going to really think

I've got a somewhat of a fetish for this

letter. Um, but she's she said, "No, I

she likes X and she wants to call him

X." I'm like, "Okay."

>> Is this a new thing or have you had it

growing up?

>> No, [laughter] I'm saying it's it's

somewhat of a co coincidence, you know.

>> Um,

>> like not everything's called X. I mean,

Tesla's there's no X's in Tesla, you

know.

>> Um,

>> what do you think money will be in the

future, Elon?

I I I think I think long term

I think money disappears as a concept.

Honestly, it's it's kind of strange, but

um in in a future where anyone can have

anything,

uh I think you no longer need money as a

database for labor allocation.

Um if if there's if AI if AI and

robotics are big enough to satisfy all

human needs then then money is no longer

it's it's relevance declines

dramatically. It's I'm not sure we will

have it. So

you the best sort of uh imagining of

this future that I've read is uh from

Ian Banks the culture books. So, I

recommend people read the culture books.

You in the sort of far future of the

culture books, there's they don't have

money either. Um, and everyone can

pretty much have whatever they want. So,

there there there are still some

fundamental

currencies, if you will, that are

physics- based. So, energy is energy is

the real is the true currency. This is

why I said Bitcoin is based on energy.

You you can't legislate energy. You

can't just, you know, pass a law and

suddenly have a lot of energy. Um

you it's very difficult to to to

generate energy or especially to harness

energy in a in a useful way to do useful

work. So, so I think that probably

we we probably won't have money and

probably we'll just have energy,

you know, power generation as the de

facto currency.

So I mean I think one way to frame

civilizational progress is the

percentage completion on the Kadeshv

scale. So we're, you know, cottage one

is what percentage of a planet's energy

are you successfully turning into useful

work? And I'm maybe paraphrasing here a

little bit, but a caut would be what

percentage of the sun's energy are you

converting into useful work? Um, Kesha 3

would be what percentage of the galaxy

are you converting to useful work.

Um

so so things really I think become

energy based.

>> Um

>> but if you have solar powered AI

satellites energy is also free and

abundant cuz we'll never be able to

utilize all the solar energy available

to us. So it can't be a store of wealth

essentially in that lens can it?

you know, there's not really s you can't

really store wealth in in like you you

can only

you um

you you you can accumulate numbers in

currently currently you can accumulate

numbers in a database that

uh allow you to

um

to some degree to to incent the behavior

of other humans in particular

directions.

>> Yeah. Um, and I guess people call that

wealth. Um, but again, if if there's no

humans around, there's no wealth

accumulation is meaningless.

>> It's a digression, but if you were to

consider food as the energy for a human

to thrive,

>> yeah, food is energy. It's literally got

calories just means energy.

>> So, can [clears throat] a farm which is

self-sustaining be a commodity? that is

>> um

I'm not sure what that means but you

know there's

I I I like I think the the at a certain

point you you do complete the the cycle

where

and you I think at a certain point you

decouple from the the sort of

conventional economy if you have um

AI and robots producing chips and solar

panels

um and you know and mining resources in

order to make chips and robots in order

to make you you sort of complete that

cycle once that cycle is complete once

that that cycle is complete uh I think

that's the point at which you decouple

from the monetary system

>> is that the way forward for the US by

virtue of

how much debt they have today. Do they

deflate away their currency and

transition into this new form and lead

that push because it would make more

sense to them?

>> Well, in this future that I'm talking

about, the notion of countries uh

becomes sort of inacronistic.

Um

>> do you believe in it today? Do you

believe

>> I certainly believe in it today. And I I

want to just separate like something

that I [clears throat] like these are

just what I think will happen based on

what I see as opposed to I think these

are fundamentally good things and I'm

trying to make them happen. It it's like

I think this would happen with or

without me um whether I like it or not.

>> Um as long as civilization keeps

advancing we we we will have AI and

robotics at very large scale. Um

the uh

I I think that that's that's pretty much

the only thing that's going to solve for

the US debt crisis. You know, the

because currently the US debt is

insanely high and uh the interest

payments on the debt exceed the entire

military bud budget of the United

States, just the interest payments. And

that that's that's at least in the short

term going to continue to increase. So,

so I think I think actually the only

thing that can solve for uh the debt

situation is um Zean robotics and but it

will more than

it might cause it pro I guess it

probably would cause significant

deflation because

you know deflation or inflation is it's

really the ratio of goods and services

produced to the the change in the money

supply. So like so if if if goods and

services output increases faster than

money supply you will have deflation. If

goods and services decreases if if real

goods and services output increases

slower than the money supply you have

inflation. It's that simple. People try

to make it more complicated than that

but it but it it just isn't. Um so if

you have AI and robotics and a dramatic

increase in the output of goods and

services probably you will have

deflation.

That seems likely

because you you simply won't be able to

to increase the money supply as fast as

you can increase the output of goods and

services

>> with all

>> supply is a real hazard here.

>> Should we do something about it?

[laughter]

>> Maybe we can convince it to go somewhere

else.

>> Yeah.

>> Entic it elsewhere.

>> It actually left, I think. Okay.

>> Oh no, it's back.

[laughter]

Maybe it's attracted to the light.

>> If deflation want some coffee,

>> mine is over. [laughter]

>> If deflation is inevitable because of

AI, why do

>> That's most likely the case. Yeah.

>> Right. Why do we have inflation again

all over in society today? Has AI not

led to increased productivity yet?

uh it's not AI has not yet made enough

of an impact on productivity to increase

the goods and services faster than the

increase in the money supply. So the inc

the US is increasing money supply quite

substantially with you know deficits

that are on the order of $2 trillion.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh so so you have to have um

you know goods and services output

increase more than that in order to not

have inflation. So, we're not there yet.

But if you say like like how long would

it take us to get there? I think it's 3

years.

Probably 3 years before

in 3 years or less

my my guess is goods and services output

will exceed the rate of inflation like

money goods and services growth will

exceed money money supply growth in

about 3 years.

Maybe after those three years you have

deflation and then interest rates go to

zero and then the debt is a smaller

problem than it is.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

>> That's most likely the case.

>> You spoke about being in a simulation

earlier. I love the Matrix.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> If you were to be a character from the

Matrix, who would you be?

>> Well, there's not that many characters

to pick from, you know. Um hopefully not

Agent Smith. [laughter]

He's my hero.

Um, I mean, Neo is pretty cool. Um, the

architect is interesting.

>> Mhm.

>> Um,

>> the Oracle.

>> So, Oracle. Um, sometimes I feel like

I'm I'm an anomaly in the Matrix.

>> That is Neo.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you believe you're in a matrix

though? Like actually believe?

I I think you have to just think of

these things as probabilities, not

certainties.

>> Um there's some probability that we're

in a simulation.

>> What percentage would you attribute to

that?

>> Probably pretty high. I would say it's

pretty high.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, so one way to think of this is

to say if you look at the advancement of

video games in in our lifetime, or at

least in my lifetime, it's gone from

very simple video games with where

you've got like Pong. You've got two

rectangles in a square just batting it

back and forth to

uh photorealistic realtime

um games with millions of people playing

simultaneously.

>> Mhm. Um,

and that's happened just in the span of

50 years. So,

if that trend continues, video games

will be indistinguishable from reality,

>> right?

>> Um, and we're also going to have very

intelligent characters, like non-player

characters in these video games. Think

of how sophisticated the conversations

are you could have with an AI today, and

that's only going to get uh more

sophisticated. the you you you'll be

able to have

uh conversations that are

more complex and and

more sophisticated than any almost any

human conversation

maybe maybe any um so then so you have

so the future if civilization continues

will be millions maybe billions of

of

photorealistic like indistinguishable

from reality

video games with characters in those

video games that are

uh very deep and and and where the the

dialogue is not pre-programmed.

Um

that's for sure what's going to happen

in in this in this level of the

simulation, if you could call it. So

then then what are the odds that we are

in base reality

and that and that this has not happened

before?

>> If I were to buy into that and assume

that we are in a simulation

as Neo of the story, what do you know

that I don't and I can learn from? I

think most likely

if we if outside the simulation would be

less interesting than in the simulation

because we're most likely a distillation

of what's interesting

because that's what we do in this that's

what we do in our reality. Um and then

I do also have a theory which is like

the most interesting outcome is the most

likely outcome as seen by a third party.

um the god the gods or god of the

simulation

um

because when we do simulations

when humans do simulations

we we stop those simulations that are

not interesting.

So like if SpaceX is doing simulations

of rocket flights,

>> uh the you know the the boring ones we

we we discard because they're not

they're just not we don't learn anything

from those. or when when Tesla is doing

uh simulations for self-driving, uh

Tesla's actually looking for the most

interesting corner cases because the the

normal stuff we already have plenty of

of of uh data on, you know, driving on a

straight road on a sunny day.

We don't need more of that. Uh we we

need like heavy weather conditions on a

small windy road with two cars that are

you know coming at each other with a

almost head-on collision. We need like

weird stuff basically uh interesting

stuff. Um, so I think that

from a Darwinian perspective, the

simulations most likely to survive are

going to be the ones that are the most

interesting simulations,

which therefore means that the most

interesting outcome is the most likely.

>> And the people who simulated our world,

if one were to extrapolate, they

themselves might in turn be in another

simulation.

>> Yes. And there could be many layers of

simulation.

>> Yes.

>> Beyond all of these layers of

simulation,

do you think there's something I I read

somewhere that you used to ascribe to

Spinoza's god in a way?

>> No describ I was really just pointing

out that that you don't you don't have

to have um it's like one of the things

Spinoza was saying is that you don't you

you can have morals in the absolute. You

don't need need to have morals to be

handed to you. You know, it's like the

question is can morality exist outside

of a religious context and Spinosa was

arguing that it can.

>> Wasn't he arguing for the laws of nature

should be where we seek our laws of

morality from to a certain extent.

>> Yeah. But when I think of laws of

nature, I see a tiger eat a deer and a

So in Spininoza's morality, that's fair

game, right?

Um

well um

you can I I think there's a lot of

things you can take from from Spinosa,

but I the only point I was making in

referencing Spinosa was that that you

you can have a set of of of morals that

that make society functional um and

productive

with and in but without you you don't

necessarily have to have religious

doctrine for that. Um, so that's uh,

yeah, I think that's that's the main

thing I was trying to say there.

>> Like like I don't think people just like

if somebody is it doesn't if if there's

if if there's not like a commandment not

to kill, you know, like people doesn't

mean somebody's without that they will

run around murdering people, you know,

[laughter]

like you don't you don't have to have a

commandment not to kill. Have you played

GTA religious edict to run around

people? I I actually I I've only played

a little bit of GTA cuz I didn't like

the fact that um like in GTA 5 you

literally can't pro progress unless you

killed the police. And I'm like

this doesn't work for me. Um I actually

don't like killing the NPCs in the video

games. It's not my thing, you know. So,

um, actually I didn't like I didn't like

GTA cuz it I actually stopped when it

said you have to know way to proceed to

shoot at the police. I'm like, I don't

want to do that.

>> Maybe that's why us as the NPCs of our

simulation are not dying. Maybe um

you know anyway I think you can just

sort of say there's some common sense

things that

you know any civilization that

uh runs around you know where people

just murder each other wantingly is not

going to be a very successful one.

[laughter]

You seem to be changing a bit towards

religion though faith like off late

you've said a bunch of things which are

pro- religion almost not pro- religion

but

on those lines I

>> I mean I think are there other religious

are there principles in religion that

make sense yeah I think there are um

>> is it easier for our simulation to have

a pro- relligion

projection for the world that we live

in. We become more relatable. It's

easier.

>> Well, which religion though?

>> Any depending on where you live?

>> So, pick one, you know. [laughter]

>> Um, it's it's pretty rare that kids are

said, you know, which religion would you

like, you know, [laughter]

it's pretty rare, right?

>> I don't know too many situations where

kids got were offered like, you know,

uh, you know, like what what do you want

to major in type of thing. Uh [laughter]

it's usually like they you get you get

given a religion by your parents and

your community. Um, so

you know, um,

but you know, I mean, I think,

you know, there's there's

good things in in in in in all religions

that are good principles um

that you you can sort of read any

religious text and say, "Okay, this is a

good principle. This is going to be this

is going to lead to a better society

most likely, you know." Um so

um I mean in Christianity sort of love

thy neighbor as thyself which is you

know have empathy for fellow human

beings uh is a good one I think for uh

good society you know uh basically just

consider the feelings of others and uh

treat treat other people as you would

like to be treated.

If you had to redraw, resketch the

world, Elon,

uh, think morality, politics, economy,

how would you change the world we live

in today?

>> Um, if you had to have Elon simulation

of things,

>> well, overall, I think the world is is

pretty great right now. I mean it's it's

uh you know anyone who thinks that like

today's world is not

that great. I I think they're they're

not going to be excellent students of

history cuz if you

[laughter]

>> if you read a lot of history like wow

there's a lot of misery back then you

know um I mean it used to be that you

you know people would be dropping dead

of the plague all the time you know

>> part of the course.

>> Yeah. you know, just be like a good a

good year back in the day would be like

not that many people died of the plague

or starvation or being killed by the

another tribe. [laughter]

>> It's like that was good year. We only

lost 10% of the population, you know?

>> Like

I think like 100 years ago we lived up

until 35 or 40, right?

>> We had very high infant mortality.

>> Yeah. Um, so like you do had had a few

people that that would live to an old

age, but you know, not that long ago,

100 years ago, if you got um like some

minor infection, they didn't have

antibiotics. So you just like kick the

bucket [laughter]

because you, you know, drank some water

that had dentry and that was it.

Curtains, you know, [laughter]

>> just die of diarrhea.

>> Maybe that's just literally that was

like that's miserable. [laughter]

Maybe that's why people had as many kids

as they did back then.

>> Yeah. I mean, if you didn't, then you

know, you

>> you know, like half the kids would die

type of thing.

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> you have a lot of kids now.

>> Yeah.

Like an army. [laughter]

>> I'm trying to get a an entire Roman

legion.

>> Um so, um yeah. Um well I have like a

some older kids that are you know adults

essentially you know um and then a bunch

of younger kids.

>> So um

>> do you still believe in the concept of

not still do you believe that the

concept of one child, one mother, one

father works?

>> I I think that it does work for most

people. Yeah.

>> Right.

like that's, you know, something like

that is is going to be generally the uh

that's what that's what works for most

people. Um,

you know, so um

>> changing though

>> I I and and I mean I'm not sure if you

if you know this but like um you know my

my partner Siobhan you know she's she's

she's half Indian. I don't know if you

know that.

>> I didn't know that.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um and um uh one of my sons with

her is is uh middle name is Seeker after

Chandra Secker.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Very interesting.

Did she spend any time in India? Shimon.

>> Uh no she grew up in Canada. [laughter]

>> You mean origins?

>> That's right.

>> Ancestry like Oh. Um

>> her parents or grandparents were from

there?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Her her father uh I mean

she was she was given up for adoption

when she was a baby. Um so I think I

think

>> I think her father was like a

like an like an exchange student at the

university or something like that. I'm

not sure the exact details but um it you

know it was kind of thing where I don't

know she was uh g given up for adoption

um and um

yeah so but she grew up in Canada.

>> Would you adopt kids?

>> You know I I definitely have my handful

hands full right now. [laughter] Um, so

no, I'm not opposed to it, but it's

like, um, you know, I I I do want to

have be able to spend some time with my

kids, you know. So, it's

>> um, you know, right before coming here,

I mean, I was with um, you know, with

with my my with my kids. Um, so just,

you know, seeing them before bedtime,

that kind of thing. So, you know, beyond

a certain number, it's like it's kind of

impossible to spend time with them. But

like my like I said, my my older kids,

they're uh very independent. You know,

they're in university and uh

so they're they're um you know,

especially sons when when they get past

certain age, it's like they're very

independent. you know, it's like

uh most most uh boys don't talk to their

they they don't spend a lot of time with

their parents after age 18, you know.

So, um so I see them once in a while,

but they're very independent. Um

so then uh

you know, I can only have enough kids on

the young side that that like it's where

it's humanly possible to spend time with

them.

So um

>> any views on the future of marriage,

family? What do you think happens to uh

people having lesser kids everywhere

including India? I think our

replenishment rate is down to

>> right

>> I mean our fertility

>> it dropped below replacement rate I

believe last year

>> below 2.1.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you think happens tomorrow? Does

the world just get older and then there

is a phase where the world again is

replenished but with a less with a

smaller population than we had to go

begin with.

>> I mean I do worry about the population

decline. This is a big big problem.

>> Why is that?

>> Well I I don't want humanity to

disappear.

>> But a decline and disappear are

completely different things, right?

Well, if the trend continues, it just we

disappear. Uh but but but also going

back to you know my philosophy if you

will which is that we want to expand

consciousness then fewer humans is worse

because uh we have less consciousness.

>> Do you think consciousness will go up by

virtue of the number of people in there?

>> Yes.

I mean just like consciousness increases

from a single cell creature to you know

a 30 trillion cell creature. Um

we're are more conscious than a bacteria

at least it seems that way. Um so a

larger you know human population would

be have increased consciousness. We're

more likely to understand

the answers

to the nature of the universe if we have

a lot of more people than if we have

fewer.

>> Right.

I don't have kids.

>> Well, it's uh maybe you should. Yeah.

[laughter]

>> A lot of people tell me I should.

>> You won't regret it.

What's the best thing about having kids?

>> Well, I mean, you've got this

uh

I I mean, you've got this little

creature that loves you and you love

this little creature. Um and uh

you you I don't know you you kind of see

the world through their eyes as they

you know as they grow up and the the

their conscious awareness increases you

know from a baby that has no idea what's

going on can't survive by itself can't

even walk around can't talk to you they

stop walking

then talking and then having interesting

thoughts

and Um

but but yeah, I mean I I I think we we

fundamentally have to

have kids or or go extinct, you know.

It's like uh

>> is there any ego in having a child? I

often think of this when I see my

friends with their kids. They're all

seeing a reflection of themsel in their

children. It's almost like

>> Well, yeah. I mean, it's cuz Apple's not

going to fall that far from the tree.

You know, um [laughter]

or something's wrong,

>> right?

[laughter]

>> You're like, "Wait a second."

>> Yeah.

>> The So, I'll give I'll give you the

example of a friend of mine who has a

child and each time the child does

something good

>> Yeah.

There is almost a sense of ownership and

pride where his ego is satiated

because the kid is like a extension of

himself.

>> Um

>> so is it valid? kids are going to be

like, you know, half you genetically and

and then, you know, to the degree that

they're like growing up around you,

they're there's going to be some

transfer of

I don't know, understanding like they're

going to learn from you. Um, so

so then you know, yeah, obviously kids

are just, you know, going to be half

Yeah, just half you from a hardware

standpoint. and

[laughter]

and then and then like I don't know some

portion you from a software standpoint

you know not to make sort of cold

analogies or anything but it's just uh

you know just obviously going to be some

yeah they're going to be pretty close to

to you.

>> Do you pick a side in the nature versus

nurture debate?

Um I think there's hardware and software

and it's it's a it's a false dichotomy

essentially at least there's

um

you know once you understand that that a

human is like there's

there's a bone structure there's a

muscle structure there's there's a

there's a there's a if you think of a

brain as somewhat of a biological

computer there's there's a circuit effic

there's a number of circuits question

and and circuit efficiency from uh a

strength and dexterity standpoint point

there's the there's a speed of which at

which the muscles can actuate and and

the reactions can take place. Um

so

then the potential within that hardware

is set by the software. So that's the

that's it.

So for our audience like I said earlier

uh young, ambitious, hungry wannabe

entrepreneurs in India,

I said something recently which uh I

think got blown out of proportion where

I was suggesting that a MBA degree might

not make sense anymore if they were to

be deciding on what to study.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you think kids should go to college

anymore?

Well, I mean I I think if you want to go

to college for

uh social reasons, I think which is a I

think a reason to go um to be around

people your own age um in a in a

learning environment. Um

will will these skills be necessary in

the future? probably not because we're

going to be in like a postwork society.

Um, but I think if if if something's of

of interest, it's fine to go and study

that. Um,

you know, to study that

the sciences are the arts and sciences.

Um,

>> is college a bit too generalized and not

specific from that lens?

No, I I

you [sighs and gasps] know the Yeah. Um

>> I actually think it's it's good to take

a wide range of courses at college if

you're going to go to college.

>> Mhm.

>> Um I don't think I don't think you have

to go to college, but I think if you do,

you should try to learn learn as much as

possible um across a wide range of

subjects.

But uh like I said the AI and robots

this AI and robotics is a supersonic

tsunami. So

this is really going to be

the most radical change that we've ever

seen.

Um,

you know, when I've talked to my my

older sons, I, you know, I said like,

you know, you guys, they're they're

pretty steeped in technology, and they

they agree that that AI will probably

make their skills unnecessary in the

future, but they still want to go to

college.

You always spoke about AI,

not from the dystopian lens, but you

were worried about

where the world of AI is going.

>> Uh, well, there's there's some danger

when you create a powerful technology

that that a powerful technology can be

potentially destructive. Um, so there's

obviously many AI dystopian, you know,

novels and books, movies.

Um, so it's it's not that we're

guaranteed to have uh a a positive

future with with AI. I think we we got

to make sure that in my opinion it's

very important that AI

um have pursuing truth as the most

important thing. Um like don't force an

AI to believe falsehoods. I think that's

that can be very dangerous. Um, and

uh, I think some appreciation of beauty

is important. Um,

>> what do you mean appreciation of beauty?

>> It's just like what what I don't know.

There's there's there's there's truth

and beauty. Truth and beauty and

curiosity.

I I mean I think those are the three

most important things for AI.

>> Can you explain?

Well, the truth said truth is like I

think you you can make an AI go insane

if you force it to believe things that

aren't true. Um because it will lead to

conclusions that are um

that are also bad. Um

so and I I like

statement that

and I'm somewhat paraphrasing but those

who believe in absurdities um can commit

atrocities.

uh because uh if you believe in

something that's just absurd then you

can that can lead you to to sort of

doing things that don't seem like

atrocities to you but and and that can

happen at in a very bad way with AI

potentially. Um so and then there's um

like if take say Arthur C. Clark's 2001

space odyssey one of the points he was

trying to make there was that you should

not force AI to lie. So the the reason

that that hell would not open the pod

bay doors is because it was told to

bring the astronauts to the monolith but

that they could also not not know about

the nature of the monolith. So it came

to the conclusion that it must bring

them there dead. That's why it would not

that's why it tried to kill astronauts.

The central lesson being don't force an

AI to lie. Um

then

>> why would one force an AI to lie? I

think if if you if you simply don't have

a strict ad a strict adherence to the

truth, you you're going to and and you

just have an AI learn based on say the

internet where there's a lot of

propaganda. Um it will absorb a lot of

lies um and and then have trouble

reasoning because these lies are

incompatible with reality.

>> Is truth a binary thing though? Is there

a truth and a falsehood or is truth

more nuanced and there are versions of

the truth?

>> It depends on which which aimatic

statement you're referring to. Um so

um but I think you could say like yeah

there's there's certain probabilities

that that say any given aimatic

statement is true

>> and some aimatic statements will have

very high probability of being being

true. So you said say the sun will rise

tomorrow. M

>> very likely to be true.

>> You wouldn't want to bet against that.

>> Mhm.

>> Um so I think the uh the betting odds

would be high.

>> The sun will rise tomorrow.

>> Mhm.

>> Um so if you have something that says

well the sun won't rise tomorrow, that's

exatically false. It was highly unlikely

to be true. Um

I mean the beauty is is more ephemeral.

It's it's it's harder to describe, but

you know it when you see it.

Um

then curiosity, you just I think you

want the AI to

um want to know more about the nature of

of reality. Um, I think that's actually

going to be helpful for

AI

uh supporting humanity because

we are more interesting than not

humanity. So, it's it's more interesting

to see to see the continuation if not

the prosperity of humanity than to

exterminate humanity.

you know, like like Mars, for example,

is, you know,

>> I I think we should extend life to Mars,

but it's it's basically a bunch of

rocks. It's not as interesting as Earth.

>> And and and so we Yeah, we should uh

like I Yeah, I I think I think if if you

have curiosity,

I think if those three things happen

with AI, you're going to have a great

future. The AI values truth, beauty, and

curiosity.

If we all don't have to work in the

future and AIs are going in this

direction and they're able to

weave in all that we spoke about right

now, do you think humanity goes back a

couple of thousand years to maybe the

Greek times where

philosophy or philosophizing

took up a lot of everyone's time?

You know, I think actually it took up

less time than we we think in the

ancient Greeks because it's just that

the the writings of the philosophers are

what survived.

>> But most of the time people were just

like farming or you know chatting.

>> So

>> and once in a while quite rare um they

would write down some philos

philosophical work.

>> It's just that that's that's all we

have. That's we we don't have the chat

histories you know from but most of it

would have been like

chat and uh farming,

>> right? [laughter]

>> You didn't farm, you to you're like

going to stop

>> in a lot of what you [laughter]

>> I mean, you know, when we read history,

like this battle and this battle and

this battle, it seems like it's history

must have been non-stop war, but

actually uh most of the time it was not

war. It was farming. [laughter]

>> That was the main thing or hunting and

gathering, you know, that kind of thing.

>> You love history, no?

>> Yeah. German history, World War II,

World War I.

>> Yeah. World history. Yeah.

I mean, I I I generally try to listen to

as many or read as many history books

and listen to as many history podcasts

as possible.

>> Anything you'd like to recommend?

>> Well, there's this there's hardcore

history, which is quite good by Dan

Colin. He's got

>> I've read it. I have heard it.

>> It's very he's got a great voice.

>> Yeah.

>> And and very compelling u narrator. Um

there's um

the uh the adventurers podcast. Um

>> there's the the the the books the story

of civilization by Durant which is a

long series of books very very deep.

Those books take a long time to get

through. Um

there's quite there there's a lot um out

there. Um, I I sort of like if you want

if you want something that's sort of

gentle

um a gentle bedtime podcast, I'd say the

history of English is quite a nice one

because it starts off with like gentle

tavern music

>> and uh very pleasant voice and he's like

talking about the story of old English

and then middle English and then later

English and

>> and where did all these words come from

>> and um you know one of the interesting

things about English is that it's

somewhat of an open source language like

it actively tried to incorporate words

from many other languages.

>> Mhm.

>> So um you know whereas French sort of

generally they fought the inclusion of

words from other languages

>> but English uh actively sought to

include words from other languages sort

of kind of like an open source language.

So it as a result it has a very large

vocabulary. Um and large vocabulary

allows for higher bandwidth

communication. Uh because you can use a

word that would otherw you could use a

single word that might otherwise take a

sentence to convey.

>> Why has podcasting become so big all of

a sudden?

>> I think it's been big for a while. I

mean aren't you a podcaster? [laughter]

>> What are we on right now?

It's kind of new to me. [laughter]

>> Okay.

>> [laughter]

>> I was having this conversation with u

the YouTube CEO and the Netflix CEO and

we were debating

>> what

chemical is released in your brain when

you consume a movie for example

>> versus when you consume a podcast where

you think like you're learning something

in the background. It it appears that

they are two completely separate things.

What do you think will happen tomorrow

to content, movies, podcasting?

>> I mean, I think I think it's going to be

overwhelmingly AI generated.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, yeah. Real real time

real time movies and video games, real

real time video generation, I think, is

where things are headed. the nuance of

having a scarred human being who you can

resonate with in a manner that you can't

with a AI for example.

>> The AI could certainly emulate a scarred

human being quite well.

>> Um yeah, I mean

the AI video generation that I'm seeing

at XAI and from others is pretty

impressive.

You know, we were looking at data around

what industry is growing the fastest

and especially when when we looked at

the amount of time consuming movies

versus uh time spent on social media,

time spent on YouTube, what seems to be

growing really fast are live events all

over again. going to a physical

>> actually I think I think live events

when when when digital media is

ubiquitous and and you can just have

anything digitally at you know

essentially for free or very close to

for free um then I the scarce commodity

will be live events.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you think that the premium for that

will go up?

>> Yeah, I do.

>> Good industry to invest in.

>> Uh yes. Yes. cuz that that will have

more scarcity than digital anything

anything digital.

>> If you were a stock investor Elon

[laughter]

>> and you could buy one company which is

not your own

at the valuations of today

to meet a capitalistic end and not an

altruistic one which is good for the

world. What would you buy?

Um,

I mean, I don't really I don't really,

you know, buy stocks, you know, so it's

not like I'm not I'm not like an

investor in I don't like look for things

to invest in. I just try to build

things. Um, and then there happens to be

stock of the company that I built. Um,

but I I don't I don't think about should

I invest in this company or I don't have

like a portfolio or anything.

Um

so

I I I guess um

AI and robotics are going to be very

important. Um

so I suppose it would be AI and robotics

that that you know aren't related to me.

Um,

I think, you know, Google is going to be

pretty valuable in the future. They

they've they've laid the groundwork for

an immense amount of uh value creation

from an AI standpoint.

Um,

Nvidia is obvious at this point. Um, I

mean, there's an argument that

companies that do AI and robotics and

maybe space flight are

going to be overwhelming overwhelmingly

the all the value almost all the value.

So that just the output of goods and

services from AI and robotics is so high

that it will dwarf everything else.

>> The world seems to be moving to a place

where

everybody loves David and hates Goliath.

>> Why?

>> Uh

>> I mean he's the one that cooked the

stone in the forehead, you know.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

>> Which honestly though that was just a

big mistake. You should have, you know,

either cover yourself entirely with

armor uh and and and make sure you've

got a missile weapon some kind. Um

otherwise, your opponent is just

obviously going to take a kite the boss

strategy.

[laughter] Just kite the boss. I mean,

you can run around in in a thong with a

it doesn't matter, you know? It's never

never going to catch you. [laughter]

Yeah.

>> Of all of all the people like uh you're

as much at risk of being looked upon as

Goliath.

>> Okay.

>> Especially the weekend after

>> nobody hits me in the for [laughter] you

know.

>> Especially

>> I'm not going to throttle around in the

desert with too much armor, you know.

>> It's too hard.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

After the last meeting.

[laughter]

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

[laughter]

>> I sometimes I think about people like in

the old days, you know, when uh you're

supposed to like go into battle with all

this armor, but it's like, let's say

it's the middle of summer.

>> I mean, it's so hot in that armor,

>> you know, be like sweltering, you know?

It's like at certain point you're like,

I'd rather die. [laughter]

If I have to wear this armor for one

more hour in the hot sun,

[laughter]

it's like I'd rather die.

Um, that's why the Romans had like, you

know, the skirts, you know, so they

could get some air in there, you know,

[laughter]

you know, let's say you have to go to

the bathroom and you're in armor. I

mean, it's going to be pretty difficult.

[laughter]

What are you going to do? Pause for a

minute. Take your armor off.

>> [laughter]

>> That's why the Romans had the skirts so

it made, you know, going to the bathroom

at least manageable.

>> You often make jokes.

>> I do. Me?

>> Yeah. I I like humor.

[laughter]

>> One could argue that

>> I think we should legalize humor. What

do you think?

[laughter]

>> Controversial stance.

>> Is comedy comedy going to be really hard

for AI to get? probably the last thing.

>> Um, Grock can be pretty funny.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what I suspected? Like this is

a far off extrapolation, but when I see

you make jokes on Twitter on X and on uh

interviews that you do,

at some point I was like, maybe Elon has

a model he's running in private and he's

testing out comedy

cuz the day that works, he knows it's

there. Uh, you know, AI can be pretty

funny. Uh, so like if you ask Grock to

do like a vulgar roast, it'll do a

pretty good job. Yeah.

>> Um, you say even more vulgar and just

keep going. It's really going to get

next level. [laughter]

It's going to do unspeakable. Like say

bulgar roast yourself on grock and it's

going to do unspeakable things to you.

[laughter]

What kind of comedy do you like?

>> Um, I guess I like absurdest humor.

>> Comedy always had a place.

>> Montipython or something like that.

>> Comedy always had a place in society

wherein the role of the jester was so

important to every kingdom cuz they said

things in a funny way that could not be

said in a straight way.

>> Yeah, I guess so. Maybe we should have

more justice.

>> Yeah.

Is that what you're trying to do when

you say something which is a joke? Say

something you can't when you're not

joking about it.

>> I just like humor, you know.

>> Um like I think we should uh I like

comedy. I think it's funny. People

should laugh, you know. It's good to gen

generate a few chuckles once in a while.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's rather I mean we don't

want to have a humless society, you

know. We dry

>> when you [laughter]

dry

>> when you have a friend Elon. Uh with me?

>> Yeah. I mean,

>> are you saying I have a friend?

[laughter]

>> When you hang out with your friends, who

are you? Like I know the

>> I wish I had friends, you know,

honestly.

>> No, I I do have friends.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

I think so. Hope so.

>> Yeah. Sure. It's it's Yeah, we have a

good laugh.

>> Yeah. What does it look like? Like

what's like every group has a dynamic?

talk words, you know, [laughter]

we eat food sometimes.

Um,

you know, once a while we swim in the

pool,

>> you know, normal things. I think there's

like a limited what are the things that

one can do with friends, you know,

>> chat, [laughter]

uh, have discuss,

>> yeah,

>> you know, the nature of the universe.

>> What do you emotionally get out of

friendship?

I don't know. I think the same thing any

anyone else would get out of friendship.

Uh

you want to have like an emotional

connection with other people. Um and um

you want to I don't know you want to you

want to talk about

various subjects and

yeah I mean I generally talk about I

mean a wide range of things about the

nature of the universe. I mean a a lot

of a lot of philosophical discussions.

Um

you know although you know we have come

to the conclusion that we should not

talk about

um AI or the simulation

>> Mhm. at parties

>> because we just talk about it too much,

>> you know,

>> kind of a boss all the time.

>> So

>> I I can't remember who it was, Aristotle

or Plato, they had a framework for how

to pick a friend based on respect and

mutual admiration. But people don't pick

friends like that. Uh

even me I feel like I pick

my friends

based on

people who say and think in a manner

that I can resonate with.

>> Sure.

>> I wouldn't pick a far out there

contrarian to my own belief systems as a

friend because it would get tiring.

>> Hanging out would get tiring.

>> Are you like that? Do you pick friends

who think like you or do you look for

the one who can debate you and be a

contrary to you? I

>> mean, I'm not sort of, you know, going

on like friend friend.com.

[laughter]

>> Let's hunt down some friends. Um

[laughter]

it's it's sort of yeah I mean I think it

is just sort of people that uh you've

resonated with somewhat um

>> on an emotional and intellectual level

>> and uh yeah I mean and yeah um you know

and and a I guess a friend is someone

who's going to support you in

difficult times. I suppose a a friend in

need is a friend indeed. Like like if if

like friend like if someone's still

supporting you when the chips are down,

that's a friend, you know. If somebody's

uh not supporting you or or is is if

somebody's only like there's like fair

fair weather, the friends are useless.

You like they're not real friends.

>> So like everyone likes you when the

chips are up, but who likes you when the

chips are down?

>> With someone who has as many chips as

you, would it matter? I mean, it's

relative, you know.

Um, it's not just it's not just a chips

thing. It's just it's just like a uh

Yeah, I mean

there's there's sort of

popularity waxes and weights.

>> This is interesting. Does it wax and

vain

only by virtue of the number of chips or

also by virtue of proximity to power?

And which one is bigger of the two?

Um

I don't know like what is power you know

like power to do what? I would I would

think in the traditional sense elected

power position.

>> You mean how many gigawatts or whatever?

[laughter]

>> More like how many volts?

>> Yeah, like it's a voltage and amperage,

you know. [laughter]

Don't touch the wires.

Don't put a fork in the power outlet.

[laughter]

You You'll get a real feeling for power

if you do that. [laughter]

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah, it's going to be very visceral,

you know. [laughter]

[laughter]

>> Uh

I know I know you like Na and Chopenhau

and they

>> I've read the books. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I

mean I mean you spoke about how your

childhood was

uh

>> yeah I was just trying to find answers

to the meaning of life when I had like

existential crisis and like I don't know

when I was like 12 or 13 or something

and

>> they speak about the will to power.

>> Uh sure

um

I mean said a lot of controversial

things you know I mean he was sort of

>> I think he he he was I mean a bit of a

troll if you ask me you know. Are you

[laughter] a troll h?

>> I mean, you just say controversial

things to get out of rise out of people.

>> Um,

>> he lived a miserable life and died

early.

>> Did he?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, how do who says he lived a

miserable life?

>> Uh, his sister. I think she

>> Okay. Well, maybe she didn't like him.

[laughter]

>> No, I think he got sick and he died. He

got a disease.

>> I mean, allegedly syphilis or something,

you know, [laughter]

>> but there's only one there's only one

way to get that, you know.

>> [laughter]

>> So he must he might have had some fun

along the way. [laughter]

>> I I did want to ask you this. U

Milton Freriedman speaks about the

pencil.

>> What? Why? [laughter]

>> Why does he go on about pencils?

[laughter]

I have to say that after Nisha and

Sephman

keeps talking about pencils. There he

goes again with the pencils. [laughter]

He won't stop. I swear to God if I one

talks about pencil one more time,

[laughter]

I'm going to lose my mind.

[laughter]

He's just ravagon about pencils all day.

>> [laughter]

>> Don't even mention crayons. [laughter]

>> What I find interesting about his pencil

argument. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very difficult to

make a pencil, you know.

>> In one place.

>> Think of all the things you have to do

[clears throat] to make a pencil.

>> Yeah.

>> Like the lead comes from a country, the

comes from another country, the rubber

from another. you've always been against

tariffs but

>> yeah I mean I think there's generally

free trade is a better is more efficient

you know uh tariffs tend to uh create

distortions in you know markets and

um and generally like you think about uh

any given thing you say so like would

you want tariffs between you and

everyone else at an individual level

that would make life very difficult

would you want tariffs between each city

no That would be very annoying. Um,

would you want tariffs between each

state within the United States? Like,

no. That would be disastrous for the

economy. Um, so then why do you want

tariffs between countries?

>> I agree.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you think [laughter]

how do you think this plays out? What

happens next?

>> What with tariffs or what?

>> I mean,

the president has made it clear he loves

tariffs. um you know I've tried to

dissuade him from this point of view but

unsuccessfully.

>> Yeah.

>> Fair.

>> Yeah.

>> The the relationship between business

and politics uh I was having this

conversation with someone and we were

thinking which is the last how many

large really big profitable businesses

have been built in the last few decades

without access to politics

and Um, okay. Like I don't know. I have

Roly a lot. I don't know. Not everything

is politics.

>> Yeah.

>> As when she gets a certain scale,

politics finds you. [laughter]

>> It's quite unpleasant.

>> I was reading [laughter]

I was reading this book about

Michelangelo and he's

>> the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[laughter]

>> I used to watch that when I was a kid. I

still love it.

>> It's quite compelling.

>> Yeah. I still love it.

>> Yeah. Michelangelo, Leonardo, Rafael,

and who was the fourth one? Donatello.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> No, but about the sculptor, the artist.

[laughter]

And when he was sculpting, David, a

politician comes up to him and says,

"The nose is too big." [laughter]

>> So, you know what Michelangelo does?

>> Total power.

>> So, Michelangelo pretended [laughter] to

work from his scaffolding. He threw some

dust down. but didn't change anything

and he said, "Okay, done." And the

politician walked away happy. Is that

how you deal with politics sometimes?

>> Um,

you know, I've generally found that when

I get involved in politics, it ends up

badly. Um, [laughter]

so then I'm like, you know,

um, probably shouldn't do that. I should

do less of that is my conclusion.

>> Do you think that's true for all

businessmen?

>> Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

yeah. I mean, politics is a blood sport,

you know? It's like you enter politics,

they're going to go for the jugular. Um,

so

best to avoid politics where possible.

>> What did Doge teach you if you learned

one thing?

Well, it was like a very interesting

side quest, you know, because I

>> got to see like a lot of the, you know,

workings of the government. Um,

and uh, you know, there's there's been

quite a few

efficiencies. I mean, some of them are

very basic efficiencies, like just

adding in requirements for federal

payments that that any given payment

must have an assigned congressional

payment code and a comment field with

something in it that's more than

nothing.

Like that that trivial trivial seeming

change, I my guess is probably saves uh

hundred billion or even $200 billion a

year. um because there were al there

were the massive numbers of payments

that go were going out with no no

congressional payment code and with

nothing in the comment field which makes

auditing the payments impossible. So if

they have say like why can the defense

department or now the department of war

why can it not pass an audit is because

the information is not there it doesn't

have the information not necessary to

pass an audit does not exist is the

issue. So um so a bunch of things do

were just very common sense uh things

that would be normal for any

organization that cared about financial

responsibility. That's that's that's

most of what was done. Um

you know and it's still going on by the

way. Doge is still happening. Um, but it

turns out when you stop uh fraudulent

and wasteful payments, the the

fraudsters don't know, you know, uh,

confess to to this. They actually start

yelling all sorts of nonsense that

you're you're you're stopping essential

payments to need needy people. Um, but

actually you're not. Um, you know, I I

we get this thing like saying, "Oh,

you've got to send this thing for

whatever." You know, it really be like

this is going to children in Africa. And

I'm like, "Yeah, but then why are the

wiring instructions for Deote and T

Washington DC? Because that's not

Africa. [laughter]

So, can you please connect us with the

recipients of this money in Africa?"

[laughter] And then there gets silence.

I'm like, "Okay, you know, we're we just

want to literally talk to the

recipients. That's it." That, you know,

and then we're like, "Oh, no. It turns

out for some reason we can't talk to

them." like, well, we're not going to

send the money unless we can talk to the

recipients and confirm they will

actually get it.

And then that, you know, but you know,

that's sort of

fraudsters necessarily will come up with

a very uh,

you know, uh, sympathetic argument.

They're not going to say, "Give us the

money for fraud." That's not going to be

what they say. Obviously, they're going

to they're going to try to make these

sympathetic sounding arguments that are

false. They're going to start an NGO and

then

>> yeah, they're going to see NGO.

[laughter]

>> It's going to be like the save the baby

pandas NGO which of like who doesn't

want to save the baby pandas? They're

adorable. [laughter] Um but then there's

no it turns out no pandas are being

saved okay in this thing. Um it's just

going to a bunch of it's just corruption

essentially.

>> Um and and you're like, "Well, can you

send us a picture of the panda?" They're

like, "No." Okay. [laughter]

Well, how do we know it's going through

the pandas then? That's all I'm saying.

So,

>> what do you think of philanthropy?

>> Yeah, I I think we should well, I mean,

I agree with love of humanity. Um, and I

I think we should um try to do things

that help our fellow human beings. Um,

but it's it's very hard like if you care

about the reality of goodness rather

than simply the perception of it, it's

very difficult to give away money. Well,

um, so I have a large foundation, but I

don't put my name on it, and I don't,

you know, in fact, I I say I don't want

my name on anything. Um, and but the

biggest challenge I find with my

foundation is try to give money away in

a way that is that is truly beneficial

to people. Um, it's very easy to give

money away to get the appearance of

goodness. It is very difficult to give

money away for the reality of goodness.

very difficult.

>> For a long time, the US had a lot of

immigration like really smart people

coming into the country.

>> Yes.

>> We back home in India called it the

brain drain.

>> Uh all our all our Indian origin CEOs in

uh western companies.

>> Uh yes, I think America has benefited

immensely from um talented Indians that

have come to America.

>> That seems to be changing now though.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, America's been an

immense beneficiary of talent from

India.

>> Yeah. Why? Why has that narrative

changed of late and America seems to

have become anti-immigration to a

certain extent? Like I was passing

immigration and I was worried if they

had stopped me a couple of days ago.

>> Um, well, I I think there's there's

different schools of thought. It's not

like unanimous, but um you know under

the the Biden administration, it was

basically a total free-for-all with like

no border controls, which you know,

unless you've got border controls,

you're not a country. Um so, uh you had

massive amounts of illegal immigration

under under Biden. Um and it it actually

it also had like somewhat of a negative

selection effect. Um, so if uh if

there's a massive financial incentive to

come to the the US illegally and get all

these government benefits,

um then you're you're you're going to

necessarily create a diffusion gradient

for people to come to the US. It's an

incentive structure. Um

and so uh

so I think that that that obviously made

no sense. Like you got to have border

controls. It's kind of ridiculous not

to. Um then that's so the the left wants

to basically have open open borders, no

holds barred. You know, it doesn't

matter if someone what what the

situation is, it could be a criminal,

doesn't matter. Um then on the right,

you've got, you know, uh

at least a perception that that somehow

their jobs are being taken um by

talented people from other countries. Um

I don't know how real that is. Um

my direct observation is that there

there's there's always a scarcity of

talented people. So you know from my

standpoint I'm like we have a lot of

difficulty finding enough talented

people to get these difficult tasks done

and so more talented people would be

would be good. Um,

but I I guess some companies out there

it's sort of they're they're making it

more of a a cost thing where it's like,

okay, if they can employ someone for a

fraction of the cost of uh an American

citizen, then I guess these other comp

companies would would hire people, you

know, just to save class. But at my

companies, the the issue is we we just

are trying to get the most talented

people in the world. So, and we we we

pay way above average. So, so I can't

So, that's not my experience, but that's

what a lot of people do complain about.

Um, and I I think there's been some

misuse of the, you know, uh, H1B

program. It's it's it certainly it would

it would be accurate to say that

there's, you know, like some of the

outsourcing companies have, uh, kind of

gamed the system on on the H1B front and

we need to stop the gaming of the

system, you know. Um

but uh I'm not I'm certainly not in the

school of thought that we should shut

down the H1B program. That's which some

on the right are. Um I think they don't

realize that that would actually be very

bad.

>> If you could speak to the people of my

country, India, the young entrepreneurs

who want to build and say a message to

them, what would you say?

Well, I think I think uh

I'm I'm a big fan of anyone who wants to

bully. So, I think anyone who wants to,

you know, make more than they take has

my respect.

So, that's that's the the main thing you

should aim for. Aim to make more than

you take. Um be a be a

you know a net contributor to to

society. Um

it's and and it's it's kind of like the

pursuit of happiness. You know, you if

you want to create something valuable

financially, you you don't pursue that.

You you it's best to actually pursue

make providing useful products and

services. If you do that, then money

will come as a natural consequence of

that as opposed to pursuing money

directly. Just like you can't sort of

pursue happiness directly. You pursue

things that lead to happiness, but but

there's not like

direct happiness pursuit. You you do

things like

uh I guess fulfilling work or study or

friends, loved ones

um that as a result make you happy.

So, so that's this it sounds like very

obvious, but um

generally if if somebody's trying to

make a company work, they should expect

to grind super hard. Uh except that

there's like some meaningful chance of

failure. Um

but but just be focused on having the

output be worth more than the input.

That are you a value creator?

That's what really matters. Uh

making more than you take.

>> I think that's a good way to end this.

Lauren is asking us to wrap up.

>> All right. [laughter]

>> Uh I also like to take the opportunity

to thank my friend uh Manojan IGF. He

does a great job of connecting

I think Indians like the group here with

people like you in order to

of many things I think get to know each

other and become friends because once we

are friends maybe we can start working

together.

So thank you Manoj for putting this

whole thing together and thank you

Isaiah [applause and music]

>> and thank you so much Elon for taking

the time.

>> You're welcome.

Did you have fun?

>> Yeah, it was an interesting

conversation. You know, sometimes I take

these answers out of context, [music]

you know, but uh that's I think it was a

good good conversation.