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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,999 British intelligence, at one critical moment in the 1980s, 2 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,439 had to act to prevent nuclear war. 3 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,239 It was able to do so because it had its own mole 4 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,959 at the heart of Russian intelligence. 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,560 That Russian double agent was Oleg Gordievsky. 6 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:37,839 Gordievsky became aware 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,519 that Russia had mistaken US and British nuclear war exercises 8 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,279 as preparations for a nuclear first strike. 9 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,039 Gordievsky also knew that in reaction, 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,400 Russia would launch its own nuclear first strike first. 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,559 He also knew that his own cover was blown, 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,719 that he'd been recalled to Moscow for interrogation, 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,999 and unless he could leave, he would be executed. 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,999 British intelligence got him out of Russia into Finland, 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,639 in the boot of a car. 16 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,199 The car was searched. The car boot was about to be opened, 17 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,679 when, suddenly, one of the British agents' wives 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,759 tore off her baby's nappy, 19 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,079 thereby distracting the tracker dogs, 20 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,759 who could not resist the smell. 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,239 The car was waved through. 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,079 Gordievsky's escape was signalled to him 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,679 by the playing of Sibelius' Finlandia 24 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,159 on the car cassette player. 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,279 Nuclear oblivion for the world turned on a baby's nappy 26 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,039 and the presence of mind of a small child's mother. 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,759 Gordievsky's escape also could be said 28 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,559 to have led to the Geneva summit in November 1985, 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,240 and the beginnings of a real end to the Cold War. 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,119 The world - and Oleg Gordievsky - were saved. 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,359 He lived for the rest of his life in secret and in disguise 32 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,559 in Surrey, England. 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,319 It was a threat. It was a huge military threat, 34 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:11,759 and it's still a threat, 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,599 even the military of the new Russia, 36 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,239 which is still a nuclear superpower. 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:18,919 And the KGB was a threat. 38 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:21,999 The KGB was less efficient than the Western intelligence services, 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,759 but the KGB was huge. 40 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,079 The KGB used to have, and still, they still have 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:33,000 about 2,500 active officers in the West. 42 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,959 Look, we're getting to be old men, and we spent our lives 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,080 looking for the weaknesses in one another's systems. 44 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,159 I can see through Eastern values, 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,960 just as you can see through our Western ones. 46 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,039 Both of us, I am sure, have experienced ad nauseum 47 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,040 the technical satisfactions of this wretched war. 48 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,160 But now your own side is going to shoot you. 49 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,359 Don't you think it's time to recognise 50 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,880 that there is as little worth on your side as there is on mine? 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,999 The Cold War ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall. 52 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,759 The film The Lives Of Others strikingly portrays 53 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,639 the surveillance by the communist East European government 54 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,359 of its own population. 55 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,399 The Stasi were unflinchingly portrayed 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,480 in this Academy Award-winning film. 57 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,760 And gradually, it dawned on him... 58 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,279 ...if a dawning can take place in total blackness... 59 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:32,719 that his life had consisted of a run of rehearsals 60 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,119 for a play he had failed to take part in. 61 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,839 And that what he needed to do from now on, 62 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:40,799 if there was going to be a now on, 63 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,199 was abandon his morbid quest for order 64 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,759 and treat himself to a little chaos, 65 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,199 on the grounds that while order was demonstrably 66 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,599 no substitute for happiness, 67 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,240 chaos might open the way to it. 68 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,919 But I think what we're seeing today, 69 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,439 and what we started seeing, especially in the 2010s, 70 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,839 is disinformation on an industrial scale. 71 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:13,599 And now, with the rise of AI, 72 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,879 we don't know very much about how many states are using AI 73 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,519 to carry out disinformation, but based on what we know about AI, 74 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,519 this is only going to accelerate 75 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,999 the tempo of propaganda and disinformation 76 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,560 carried out by states such as Iran or such as Russia. 77 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,319 There's no way out, he announced with satisfaction, 78 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,479 and no amount of wishful dreaming will produce one. 79 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,319 The demon won't go back in its bottle. 80 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,159 The face-off is forever, the embrace gets tighter, 81 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,920 and the toys cleverer with every generation. 82 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,199 Not for the main players... 83 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,879 not for the nasty little newcomers, 84 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,519 who each year run themselves up a suitcase bomb and join the club. 85 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,239 We get tired of believing that. 86 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,279 Because we're human, 87 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:10,160 we may even con ourselves into believing the threat has gone away, 88 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,320 It never will, never, never, never. 89 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,479 The Russian view of the Cold War is rarely heard. 90 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,359 The deep resentment 91 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,159 of first the Soviet Union and now Russia 92 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,839 has not gone away. 93 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:33,199 Stalin and Khruschev both resented Russia not being seen 94 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,319 as an equal partner of the United States, 95 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,719 both at the end of the Second World War 96 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,240 and subsequently. 97 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:48,639 On the invasion of Ukraine on February 24th 2022, 98 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,479 President Putin expressed this view in extreme form. 99 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,199 Where does this insolent manner of speaking come from? 100 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,799 Where does this exceptionalism, infallibility 101 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,439 and all permissiveness come from? 102 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,959 Wherefrom comes that condescending, arrogant attitude 103 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,000 towards our interests and absolutely legitimate demands? 104 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,639 In contrast, George Robertson, 105 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:20,079 who was Secretary-General of Nato between 1999 and 2004, 106 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,319 said Putin, at their first meeting, 107 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,119 told him that he wanted Russia to join NATO, 108 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,279 and for Russia and Russian culture to be part of western Europe. 109 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,679 But he did not want to stand in line 110 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,280 with a lot of countries that don't matter. 111 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,199 He said the same thing to David Frost in a BBC interview. 112 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,639 Putin expected to change NATO to take account of Russian interests 113 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,879 and reflect Russia being part of European culture. 114 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,640 This was obviously unlikely to happen. 115 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,479 Thucydides wrote in the fifth century 116 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,999 that the Greek wars were the result of the rise of the power of Athens 117 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,239 and the fear this produced in Sparta. 118 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:07,519 Vladislav Zubok remarks that 25 centuries after Thucydides 119 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,359 that war has countless causes: 120 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,999 seeing the other as the enemy, 121 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,399 a need for moral superiority, 122 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,999 ideological delusions. 123 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,319 All the varied traditionalist, revisionist 124 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,759 or post-revisionist interpretations of the Cold War 125 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,080 remain simply interpretations. 126 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,519 Feature films like Argo, Munich, Bridge of Spies, 127 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,399 Enemy of the State, and The Good Shepherd 128 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,279 tackled controversial political themes, 129 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,320 though some facts were changed for the benefit of dramatic effect. 130 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,559 So, another way to think of intelligence 131 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:08,039 is through what we call the dirty hands dilemma, 132 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,119 which is, essentially, who is willing to carry the burden 133 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:17,439 of doing, you know, immoral things in order to protect the realm? 134 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,599 And one of the things that you see 135 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,679 when you watch a spy film, or a spy TV series, 136 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,919 is actually these people carrying the burden 137 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,559 of doing all sorts of immoral things. 138 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,759 And you, as a spectator, might experience 139 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,759 all sorts of extremely problematic feelings 140 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,920 when you watch a scene of torture, water-boarding and so on. 141 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,080 Look at me. 142 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,879 You don't look at me when I talk to you, I hurt you! 143 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,039 And, so, in a way, there is a sort of conflictual pleasure 144 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,479 to see people doing the sort of things 145 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,040 that you're not ready to do as an individual. 146 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,399 Someone just tried to blow up... 147 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,079 Zero Dark Thirty was an interesting one, 148 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:12,839 because the CIA actually agreed to give sensitive information 149 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,599 about the Bin Laden raid to the filmmaker, Kathryn Bigelow. 150 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,799 Start working on the American Al Qaeda cells. 151 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:20,959 Protect the homeland. 152 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,559 Bin Laden is the one who keeps telling them to attack the homeland! 153 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:27,759 One of the main messages of that film was, 154 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,279 enhanced interrogation worked. 155 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,599 Torture worked, 156 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,639 when it came to the hunt for Bin Laden. 157 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,879 Had it not have been for enhanced interrogation of terrorist suspects, 158 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,639 they would never have found Osama bin Laden. 159 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,279 There was an anger that the CIA had given this material to Bigelow, 160 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,559 essentially to justify some of the... 161 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:51,359 to justify the kind of gloves-off approach 162 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,279 to the war on terror that it took. 163 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,479 There is debate as to whether information derived from torture 164 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,679 actually led to the capture of Osama Bin Laden. 165 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:02,559 Kathryn Bigelow wrote, 166 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:05,039 "Torture was however, as we all know, 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,479 employed in the early years of the hunt. 168 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,559 That doesn't mean it was the key to finding Bin Laden. 169 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,560 It means it is a part of the story we couldn't ignore." 170 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:15,999 The Guardian reported, 171 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,319 "Though torture was used by CIA the in the early 2000s, 172 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,799 it may not have been part of the story 173 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,879 of finding Osama Bin Laden." 174 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,239 Everyone will have their own moral compass. 175 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,999 For instance, when officers are running sources, 176 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,919 one of the dilemmas could be, you know, 177 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,119 how long am I going to ask the source to stay in place? 178 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,319 Should we be running sources who are conducting, perhaps, 179 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,519 illegal or various violent acts? 180 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,599 Oleg Penkovsky was a high-ranking Soviet official 181 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,239 providing key intelligence to the West. 182 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,519 He was arrested by the Soviets in 1962, 183 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,199 tried and executed in the following year. 184 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,359 Penkovsky is providing a whole range of information, 185 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,679 not just on the Soviet order of battle 186 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,759 when it comes to nuclear information - 187 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,239 so the nuclear stockpile of the Soviet Union 188 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:09,799 and its nuclear capability - 189 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,159 but Penkovsky is also providing a range of information 190 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,839 on Soviet military intelligence, 191 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,399 the types of strategies that the Soviets are going to employ 192 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,280 in their war against the West, should the Cold War break out. 193 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,999 But he's also, like other defectors 194 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,319 and other individuals further down the line, 195 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,159 he's providing information on Soviet intelligence's order of battle. 196 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,919 He's providing information on, 197 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,359 who are their leading intelligence officers 198 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,119 being sent overseas? 199 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,519 And it's the mundane information 200 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,599 that really is the building blocks of good intelligence. 201 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,560 ♪ SOMBRE MUSIC 202 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,120 Everything passes. 203 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,080 Everything wears out. 204 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,440 Everything breaks. 205 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,359 It's just that I'm tired of being told I look at life too simply. 206 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,239 It isn't naive to believe that good exists, that evil exists. 207 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,239 I have known both of them - I've seen them, I've felt them. 208 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,719 They aren't just ideas that you can twist into deep phrases. 209 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,959 They aren't words to be clever with. 210 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,839 They are too vital. 211 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,479 We live by them, 212 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,840 or else we make everything meaningless. 213 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,479 While some recent practitioners 214 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,239 have maintained the sombre view of espionage 215 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,199 that often characterised the fiction and films 216 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,079 inspired by the Cold War, 217 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,359 others, as, for instance, the Austin Powers series of films, 218 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,839 appearing from to 1997 to 2002, 219 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,079 have seen the potential for satirical comedy in spy stories. 220 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,799 That really hurt! 221 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,719 Who throws a shoe? 222 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,359 Spy is a spoof film from Paul Feig, 223 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,079 the director or Bridesmaids, 224 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,399 that is full of affection for the conventions of the spy film. 225 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,399 Susie, get Rayna to safety now! 226 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,440 I've got her! 227 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Get away! 228 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,120 Who puts a roof on a scooter? What are you, the Pope? 229 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,519 The Bridge Of Spies, made in 2015, 230 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:48,040 is based on historical reality, on a real story. 231 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,919 But it explores the ambivalence 232 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,319 around the contention between different ideologies, 233 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:04,359 the motives behind those who are entangled 234 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,079 with those confrontations. 235 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,639 But there is in The Bridge Of Spies a compelling sequence 236 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,879 when the handover is to take place. 237 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:23,040 Waiting for the arrival of a second American figure. 238 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,280 I acted honourably, I think they know that. 239 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,760 But sometimes people think wrong. People are people. 240 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,280 Let's see how they greet me. 241 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,320 What can I look for? 242 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,920 If I'm embraced or just shown the back seat. 243 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,119 Perhaps hell is like that, 244 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,479 a discordant confusion of anxious souls. 245 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,959 Some argued, some slept, 246 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,999 some shouted, some wept, 247 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,879 some wrote, some sketched, 248 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,640 and many conspired about their coming interrogation. 249 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,839 But mostly, they did no more than stare into space, 250 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,920 eyes unfocused as they tried to see tomorrow. 251 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Insubordinate. 252 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,560 Insolent. 253 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,760 A trickster. 254 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,759 Perhaps with criminal tendencies. 255 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,159 Yes, that's a pretty fair appraisal. Sir. 256 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:48,599 Good. 257 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:56,719 Social class has always been a prominent feature 258 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:03,000 within spy novels and indeed in spy film. 259 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,600 Mr Grantby? 260 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,519 Mr Grantby, we are looking for an important piece 261 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,679 of scientific equipment. 262 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,360 It was lost on a train. 263 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,080 We think that you might be able to help us get it back. 264 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,280 Shh. 265 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,239 Later writers react against this, 266 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,799 and here it's worth mentioning Len Deighton. 267 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,639 Who came from a very different background 268 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,679 from that that we would encounter 269 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,719 in say, Graham Greene or Ian Fleming. 270 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,040 The image of Harry Palmer... 271 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,119 ...is a fascinating one at a time when 272 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,479 you're thinking about class in post-war Britain. 273 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,479 I haven't seen you here before, sir. 274 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,439 No, well I don't, erm... 275 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,439 really care for these American shopping methods. 276 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,479 One has to move with the times, I suppose. 277 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,199 He is very much the anti-Bond and the working-class hero, 278 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,960 and his mannerisms towards superiors and how he how he treats them. 279 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,600 Yes, sir. 280 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,359 And the girl Courtney too. You didn't come here... 281 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:36,680 Excuse me. Sorry. 282 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,279 You didn't come here to talk to me about... 283 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,919 Oh, men! 284 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,999 ...button mushrooms and birds. 285 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,879 But I also think there's still an element here of the bourgeois 286 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,199 and something that people would like to live up to 287 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,760 in terms of his lifestyle. 288 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,199 Champignon. 289 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,400 Nothing but the best for our Palmer. 290 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,079 And in terms of, you know, the presentation of intelligence, 291 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,439 very much... you know, forward-thinking. 292 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,399 The room was silent, 293 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,360 except for the hum of the fluorescent lights. 294 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,560 I sat at my desk, reviewing the report. 295 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,160 Another one of those routine cases. 296 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,440 But something about it nagged at me. 297 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,439 There were no big names, no major intelligence, 298 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,200 but still, something didn't add up. 299 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,120 The problem with this job... 300 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,799 ...is that you never know who to trust. 301 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,279 We do see a complacent acceptance 302 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,359 of older ideas about gender and the role of women, 303 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:52,039 which Deighton is quite happy to accept. 304 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,960 - Hello? - Bald Eagle wants to see you urgently at his place. 305 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,240 Look, he's expecting you at at 1200 hours. 306 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,960 Tell Ross, er... 307 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,040 ...I'll be late. 308 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,639 Really work on the insubordinate bit, don't you? 309 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,840 You're useless in the kitchen. Go back to bed. 310 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,640 "I've been taking things too seriously for years," I said. 311 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,560 "I'm afraid it makes me a difficult man to live with." 312 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,520 "But I've stayed alive, sweetheart." 313 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,560 "And that means a lot to me." 314 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,999 One of the striking features about spy fiction and spy films 315 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,639 is that it is a very male-dominated genre. 316 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:52,799 It is partly because it's an action-based genre. 317 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,999 That it often involves 318 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,639 international travel, exotic location, 319 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,199 all things that were not so immediately accessible 320 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,559 to women writers. 321 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:12,279 In the middle of the 20th century, in the context of World War Two, 322 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,959 we have Helen MacInnes, a very accomplished novelist 323 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,919 who was writing on the basis of personal experience. 324 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:28,239 Von Aschenhausen sat on the edge of a large desk. 325 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,679 His eyes were fixed on the man standing 326 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,000 over the girl roped to a chair. 327 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,519 He spoke again, 328 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,080 "You fool, you stupid little fool." 329 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,840 "Can't you see I must, I will find out." 330 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,319 Her novel Above Suspicion was based 331 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,559 on a honeymoon journey through Europe, 332 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,879 with her husband, who was a classical scholar. 333 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,559 So, she was writing about a world that she knew. 334 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,679 She was a very politically engaged writer, 335 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,319 always pushing back against what seemed to her 336 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,639 the dangerous self-deceptions of Europe 337 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,920 in the context of poisonous, political ideologies. 338 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,359 There's nothing like self-pity for thoroughly dissipating a man, 339 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,279 and when a nation indulges in that luxury, 340 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,000 it finds itself with a dictator. 341 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,279 The Bond girl, 342 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,839 whose role in the early Bond films 343 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,599 was always to be gorgeous 344 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,479 and, broadly speaking, sexually available, 345 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,719 that role has been superseded 346 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,519 by the formidably active figure, 347 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,999 who is as capable of inflicting damage in a fight 348 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,759 as any of her male colleagues. 349 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,360 And is fully involved in the plot, 350 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,439 rather than just a kind of passive vehicle. 351 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,719 In a recent television series, Black Doves, 352 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,359 you see a complex spy narrative 353 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,879 which is dominated by women. 354 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,639 This isn't a complaint. This is vengeance. 355 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,639 What are you talking about? 356 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,439 We can't undo what's done. We can't bring people back. 357 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,079 This here is a good an ending as you're gonna get, 358 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,839 so take it. Helen. This is NOT you. 359 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,720 Who do you think I am, Sam? 360 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,439 Women have always been at the heart of Britain's history of espionage 361 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,199 and I think what we tend to miss is how effective these women were. 362 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,159 Even with the founding of MI5 and MI6, 363 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,640 there were women who played key roles. 364 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,199 Breaking the Enigma code was hugely important 365 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,839 to Allied success in the war. 366 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,599 Bletchley Park, 75% of the staff there were female, 367 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,159 couldn't have operated without that input. 368 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,279 And there were women at very senior levels, 369 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,679 language experts and mathematicians working on the codebreaking. 370 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,399 The women who joined the SOE, the Special Operations Executive, 371 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,359 came from 13 different nations. And Eisenhower said 372 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,519 that they probably shortened the course of the war by some months 373 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,039 and made a very considerable contribution 374 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,040 to ultimate Allied victory. 375 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,799 It was only in the 1950s that Britain started making films 376 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,519 like Odette and Carve Her Name With Pride, 377 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,559 that showed the role that women had played 378 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,319 with the SOE or behind enemy lines. 379 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,559 My name is Maurice Buckmaster. 380 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,919 I have been asked to say a forward to this story. 381 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,279 My only claim to do so is that, as their commanding officer, 382 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,599 I knew intimately all the volunteers 383 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,679 who formed the French section of Special Forces. 384 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,039 It was in September 1942 that Odette Sansom, 385 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,039 alias Madame Odette Metayer, 386 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,519 number S-23, known to us as "Lise", 387 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,439 completed her training. 388 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,119 For her bravery and bearing, when in the hands of the enemy, 389 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,479 Odette was awarded the George Cross, 390 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,759 the highest British honour that can be bestowed on any woman. 391 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,599 This is her story. 392 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,119 Au revoir, Lise. Good luck. Au revoir. Merci. 393 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,879 Perhaps one of the ironies is that 394 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,399 it's because women tend to be overlooked 395 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,439 that made them so useful in many roles in the war. 396 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,999 And why it is relevant to be a woman is not because they were beautiful, 397 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,999 it's not because they were seductresses, 398 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,519 it's because women do have a superpower in the 1940s, 399 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,079 arguably still today, 400 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,199 and that is that they are overlooked and they are underestimated, 401 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,919 and that gave them perfect opportunity 402 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,840 to serve in intelligence gathering. 403 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,399 The women faced exactly the same fundamental threat as the men, 404 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,119 and many of them lost their lives. 405 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,399 We don't need to have a female James Bond, 406 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,919 because we actually had real female 407 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,319 Special Operations Executive agents out there 408 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,519 who were playing that role. 409 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,239 They weren't Bond girls, they were Bond. 410 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,119 Better than Bond, because they were real, 411 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:21,839 they were in place, in the role, in the war. 412 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,560 So, these are the stories that we still need to tell accurately. 413 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:33,999 There had been earlier explorations of race and ethnicity 414 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,319 and here we might mention Sam Greenlee's really seminal book, 415 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,439 The Spook Who Sat By The Door. 416 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,959 Sam Greenlee's deeply challenging book and film 417 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,839 present a fictional scenario and a realistic fictional apocalypse 418 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,399 based on a Black ex-CIA agent 419 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,879 becoming a CIA-trained and revolutionary Black Power leader 420 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,959 and fomenting an insurrection 421 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,599 to overturn White power in the United States, 422 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,519 based on the very techniques learned by Sam Greenlee himself, 423 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,360 when he was himself a spook trained by the CIA. 424 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,839 The book, initially published in Britain, 425 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,959 and the film that Sam Greenlee co-produced 426 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,359 show a young Black CIA agent turning against the state 427 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,239 and the institution that trained him 428 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,799 in the intelligence methods and techniques 429 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,320 to be used against foreign powers. 430 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,199 He uses them to marshal a Black Power insurrection 431 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,040 in the United States. 432 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,359 Created at the time of the assassination 433 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:48,599 of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, 434 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,999 with a background of accompanying demonstrations and riots 435 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,919 throughout the United States, 436 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,839 the book and film represent one of, 437 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,519 and perhaps the only, full dramatisation 438 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,159 of the radical aims of an extreme incarnation 439 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,119 of the Black Power movement. 440 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:13,279 Released by United Artist, Sam Greenlee, and others, 441 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,559 believe that the FBI removed 442 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,279 all prints from cinemas showing them, 443 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,999 when it became clear that the film was going to be a great success. 444 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,079 Negatives were lost or destroyed. 445 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:32,360 One was eventually rediscovered for the DVD release in 2004. 446 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,079 Sam Greenlee never recanted on, or changed his views, 447 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,519 on the need for a revolutionary freedom for Black Americans. 448 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,159 The book and the film are a powerful account 449 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,759 of the frustrations and injustices 450 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,439 powering the Black Power movement in the United States in the 1970s. 451 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,919 It is a remarkable creative assault 452 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,519 on the more usual personal fictions and representations 453 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,200 of intelligence and espionage. 454 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,719 The American writer Aya De Leon 455 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,119 writes from the perspective of a Black woman, 456 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,519 in A Spy In The Struggle in the 2020s, 457 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,119 where she is thinking about divided loyalties, 458 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,919 as so many spy writers do. 459 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:30,399 Loyalty between national interests and the interests of Black people, 460 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360 which, in that novel, are quite often in conflict. 461 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,839 The deal wasn't just about money, it was about power. 462 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,199 The women at the table didn't just want the cash, 463 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,399 they wanted to show they could run the game 464 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,119 better than the men who'd been in charge for years. 465 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,680 They had the skills, the knowledge and the ambition. 466 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,400 But ambition wasn't enough. 467 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,319 It was the willingness to break the rules, 468 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,919 to bend them so far they snapped. 469 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,800 If they wanted to win, they had to play dirty... 470 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,040 ...and she wasn't afraid to get her hands bloody. 471 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:19,559 The central points of concern in spy novels and in spy films 472 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,720 change as the years go by. 473 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,399 Bourne waited in the Renault, 474 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,039 two hundred yards east of the restaurant entrance, 475 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,119 the motor running, prepared to race ahead 476 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,600 the instant he saw Villiers drive out. 477 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,159 Several others had already left, all in separate cars. 478 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,879 Conspirators did not advertise their association 479 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,360 and these old men were conspirators in the truest sense. 480 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,999 They had traded whatever honours they'd earned 481 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,639 for the lethal convenience of an assassin's gun 482 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,760 and an assassin's organisation. 483 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,679 Age and bias had robbed them of reason, 484 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,319 as they had spent their lives robbing life 485 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,280 from the young and the very young. 486 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,239 The easiest thing in the world 487 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,240 is to convince yourself that you're right. 488 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,720 As one grows older, this is easier still. 489 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,039 You see it reflected in a different light, 490 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,599 in Robert Ludlum's The Bourne Identity. 491 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,479 Where the story turns on the central character's 492 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,599 having lost his identity. 493 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,240 What was it? 494 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,600 Why won't it leave me? 495 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,599 Some terrible thing is deep inside me 496 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,120 trying to break out. 497 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,080 Trying, I think, to kill me. 498 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,320 Help me, Marie. For God's sake, help me. 499 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,999 I mean, we're all trying to find out who the hell we are. 500 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,680 Aren't we? 501 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,879 So, the image of the CIA 502 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,599 throughout the Bourne films, the Bourne books 503 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,599 is really of an agency that, yes, is attacking individuals overseas, 504 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,959 but Bourne himself is fighting rogue elements within the CIA. 505 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,239 And this is, you know, plays into that broader idea 506 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,439 that post-911, the CIA can get up to whatever it wants. 507 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,999 The CIA is involved in extraordinary rendition. 508 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,959 It's involved in torture. 509 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,400 It's involved in drone strikes and extrajudicial killing. 510 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,920 Jason Bourne had no memory of who he was. 511 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,719 He had no idea how he'd ended up in a hospital in Paris 512 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,480 fighting for his life. 513 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,839 All he knew was that he was being hunted 514 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,719 and that the people after him would stop at nothing 515 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,640 to make sure he was dead. 516 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,440 But as his mind began to clear, he realised something else. 517 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,959 They weren't just hunting HIM. 518 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,080 They were hunting what he'd become. 519 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,559 A man with a past, a man with no future... 520 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,440 and a man with no hope of escape. 521 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,079 There are certain things that secret intelligence agencies can do, 522 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,519 that the everyday citizen and corporations cannot do. 523 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,719 So, in the case of the UK, 524 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,159 only the UK's intelligence security community, 525 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,959 MI5, GCHQ and SIS, 526 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,119 and can break law. 527 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,319 They are given express permission 528 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,399 by a Secretary of State or a senior civil servant 529 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,079 to breach the legal frameworks that are in place. 530 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,079 So, we know that the US intelligence community 531 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,560 is really interested in social media. 532 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,319 They're interested in the power of social media 533 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,839 for what they're calling "anticipatory intelligence". 534 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,759 So, can a computer, can an algorithm 535 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:17,319 be made to scan the world's social media in real time, 536 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,759 to gauge the temperature of a population? 537 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,519 To gauge how close a group or a certain population 538 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,239 is close to protesting, is close to rioting. 539 00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:31,639 That's the kind of "Brave New World" thinking. 540 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,599 One London hedge fund 541 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,159 has successfully used these kinds of ideas 542 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,960 to outperform financial markets by a considerable margin. 543 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,719 The US intelligence community was completely blindsided 544 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:46,879 by the Arab Spring back in 2013. 545 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,759 Some intelligence professionals and some computer scientists 546 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,279 would have you to believe that, when perfected, 547 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,199 AI and computers will mean that the intelligence community 548 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,600 will never be blindsided by an Arab Spring event again. 549 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,919 Standing on the tube, 550 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,759 Coe was studying his fellow passengers, 551 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,200 gauging their identities. 552 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,759 There was a checklist he'd memorised, 553 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,439 a crib sheet on how to spot a terrorist. 554 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,879 And there was another checklist, allowing for the possibility 555 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,919 that terrorists might have got hold of the first checklist 556 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,199 and adapted their behaviour accordingly. 557 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,640 And Coe had memorised this too. 558 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,919 And he was mentally running through them, 559 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,879 scoring his fellow travellers, 560 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,399 when it struck him there was conceivably a checklist 561 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,239 for spotting members of the security services. 562 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,919 He was doubtless ticking all the right boxes himself. 563 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,159 The thought made him want to giggle, 564 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,440 which was itself on one of the checklists. 565 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,799 Mick Heron has been a hugely popular writer in recent years, 566 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,559 perhaps primarily because of the brilliant adaptations 567 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,680 of his work for television. 568 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,359 This was the blissful break, 569 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,199 when the world seemed a safer place, 570 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,120 between the end of the Cold War and about ten minutes later. 571 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:25,440 The office was as bleak as its inhabitants. 572 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,639 Jackson Lamb stood by the window, a cigarette dangling from his lips, 573 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,400 watching the rain pour down. 574 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,959 The city outside was alive, 575 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,880 but inside the walls were closing in. 576 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:49,799 Slough House, the graveyard for MI5's failed agents, 577 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,680 was no place for hope. 578 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,999 Lamb had long given up on it, 579 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,279 but there was always one last job, 580 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,440 always a reason to keep pushing forward. 581 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,679 Even if that reason was just to spite the people 582 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,400 who had left him here. 583 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,519 I think I'd put to you that hostile intelligence agencies, 584 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,679 they don't invent discontent within society. 585 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,159 They don't invent angst, hostility, division within society. 586 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,359 But what they do is they exploit it. 587 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,119 They exploit already existing discontent. 588 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,759 They exploit and amplify and weaponise 589 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,719 existing divisions within society. 590 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,799 So, whenever we see things in the news, protest, riots, 591 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,159 we should always think to ourselves, 592 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,119 you know, how is this going to be exploited 593 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,879 by people who would do us harm? 594 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,639 Get your own house in order, 595 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,639 that in itself is a tool of resilience, 596 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,359 that in itself is a barrier to hostile acts by your enemies. 597 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,319 They take their instructions, or tasking, from the government. 598 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,199 Intelligence agencies are only responding 599 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,919 to the demands of the government themselves, 600 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,159 so, to borrow the criticism of the CIA in the 1970s, 601 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,679 they're not a rogue elephant. 602 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,879 They are responding to specific tasking by a government, 603 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,719 and they are following through 604 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,759 on what they're told to go out there and collect. 605 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,639 And that's the great sort of divide 606 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,960 between the popular depictions of intelligence and reality. 607 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,679 For decades to come, 608 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,799 the spy world will continue to be the collective couch 609 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:41,240 where the subconscious of each nation is confessed. 610 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,479 Other novelists have looked at differing approaches to espionage. 611 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,959 Like Stella Rimington, 612 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,999 Charles Beaumont has personal experience of MI6. 613 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,919 His A Spy Alone is based on the fictional premise 614 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,639 of an Oxford spy ring, in an echo of the Cambridge ring, 615 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,039 with members who have different reasons 616 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,719 of being prepared to work for Putin's Russia. 617 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:16,999 Some recent spy fiction, 618 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,279 including Adam Brookes's Night Heron trilogy, 619 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,760 have turned their attention to China as a global threat. 620 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,199 "The greatest long-term threat 621 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,399 to our nation's information and intellectual property 622 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,479 and to our economic vitality 623 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,399 is the counter-intelligence and economic espionage threat 624 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,160 from China." 625 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,000 It's the oldest question of all, George. 626 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,680 Who can spy on the spies? 627 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,919 The idea that, somehow, the CIA and the British 628 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,919 are behind everything and they're the evil enemy 629 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,079 is something that's pushed forward by other external actors, 630 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,439 like the Russian state. 631 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,759 And I think that it comes back to this idea 632 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,999 of weaponisation of history, and also weaponisation of image 633 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,760 is key in shaping propaganda hearts and minds. 634 00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,839 He betrayed his country, yes. 635 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,320 Perhaps he did. 636 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,599 But who among us has not committed treason 637 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,880 to something or someone more important than a country? 638 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,559 They never understand it, do they? 639 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,680 They never know what it costs. 640 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,920 The sordid tricks of lying and deceiving. 641 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,080 The isolation from ordinary people. 642 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,799 They think you can run on their kind of fuel, 643 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,160 the flag-waving and the music. 644 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,799 But you need a different kind of fuel, don't you? 645 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,320 When you're alone. 646 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,960 You've got to hate. 647 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,200 And it needs strength to hate all the time. 648 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:17,719 And what you must love is so remote, so vague... 649 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:19,520 when you're not a part of it. 650 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,079 What I worry about is the Americans weaponising 651 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,520 American intelligence access for political ends. 652 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,719 Back in 1973, 653 00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:37,799 the Nixon administration and Henry Kissinger 654 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,079 were becoming increasingly alarmed by their perception 655 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,559 that the Brits were getting too friendly with Europe. 656 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,039 And Kissinger and Nixon had been saying to Heath, 657 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,679 "You know, just slow down on European integration, 658 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,279 the European project," and Heath wasn't listening. 659 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,479 Kissinger picked up the phone to the NSA and said, 660 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,439 "Can you just stop sharing priceless NSA intelligence 661 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,439 with the Brits until these people in Downing Street 662 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,919 start singing from our hymnal." 663 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,599 My worry is that Trump will say to NSA, 664 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,919 maybe Britain is doing something that Trump is not happy about, 665 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,319 my worry is that he will try to whip us into shape 666 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,759 by saying to the director of NSA, 667 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,120 "Yeah, let's, um... let's just turn the tap off." 668 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,319 Ukraine's successful intelligence-led drone attack 669 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,559 on a large section of Russia's bomber fleet, 670 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,519 previously bombing the Ukraine, 671 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,079 both may change the nature of defence, armaments of warfare 672 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,679 and present an almost Bond- and Q-like ability, 673 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,079 to make brilliantly conceived gadgets, 674 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,599 combined with total intelligence, 675 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,919 more effective than billion-pound aircraft carriers, 676 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,960 wings of attack aircraft and big armies. 677 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,279 Intelligence and the nature of warfare are changing. 678 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,519 Israeli intelligence created 5,000 exploding pagers 679 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,839 with deadly effect. 680 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,639 Ukraine's president, Zelensky's father 681 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,479 is one of Europe's leading experts in computing and cybernetics. 682 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,319 It is hard not to wonder if, 683 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,439 with the possible help of MI6 684 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,879 and President Biden's intelligence-fed information, 685 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,839 that the Zelenskys created an extraordinary 686 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,439 intelligence-led military coup 687 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,920 when Ukraine successfully attacked Russia's bomber fleet. 688 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,519 World events and personal political opinions 689 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,560 are being weaponised by both benign and malevolent state actors. 690 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,799 In the real geopolitical world 691 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,399 of increasing international conflict, 692 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,479 the breakup of the post-war settlement and NATO consensus, 693 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,319 an apparent new Cold War, 694 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,199 continuing conflict and destruction in the Middle East, 695 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,039 the rise of China, 696 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,080 the real world of intelligence becomes increasingly important. 697 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,079 There is the possibility in the West of the Five Eyes 698 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,559 intelligence-sharing arrangements breaking down. 699 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,279 In short, all the familiar patterns of spying 700 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,000 and secret intelligence are changing. 701 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,399 The worlds of appearance and reality, 702 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:20,879 of public and private, 703 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,840 of the fiction and the real geopolitical world are merging. 704 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,880 Subtitles by Sky Access Services www.skyaccessibility.sky 57795

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