Original subtitles

Stella Rimington, a former director-general of MI5,

in particular felt that John le Carre had undermined the importance,

the dignity, as well as the good humour

of ensuring the safety of the British state.

"The room was dimly lit, the air thick with tension.

Liz Carlyle knew she was about to enter into something dangerous,

but she had no choice.

She had made a decision long ago

to serve her country, to protect it.

But now, as she sat across from her superior,

she understood that the stakes were higher than she'd ever imagined.

The line between right and wrong was not always clear

and in the world of intelligence,

loyalty was the currency more valuable than gold."

But she does reject, and I think intentionally so,

an interpretation of what happened in the Cold War

and our understanding of that,

which I think has been heavily coloured by le Carre,

and gives what you might see as a more positive view

of what was going on.

"'A dry martini,' he said.

'One in a deep champagne goblet.

Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka,

half a measure of Kina Lillet.

Shake it very well until it's ice cold.

Then add a large, thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?'"

One of the great assets of British intelligence at its best...

Not all the time, just at its best.

...it realised it could make use of talents

that other intelligence services could not do.

You know, the best-known British spy is a fictional figure,

which he obviously is, cos James Bond is better known

than any real spy in British history.

Happens to be a global box office success.

But no other country has been able to produce

such an extraordinary spy.

'Seven, six, five...'

Bang on time. I admire your courage, Miss...?

Trench. Sylvia Trench.

I admire your luck, Mr...?

Bond. James Bond.

The best-known spy of all is James Bond,

the creation of Ian Fleming.

The Bond books began with Casino Royale in 1953

and continued until 1967.

There were 13 novels in all.

But it is the Bond films

that created the full international scale of James Bond

and his formidable expression, "Shaken, not stirred."

The spectacularly successful series of Bond films

began with Dr No in 1962

and has not yet come to an end.

No less than three US presidents commented on James Bond.

"We couldn't have won the Cold War without you,"

was President Clinton's comment

when declaring Sean Connery an honorary US citizen.

Lyndon Johnson said, "In two and a half years

of working with these men, I have yet to meet a 007."

For a third US president, John F Kennedy,

Ian Fleming was declared to be his favourite writer.

Kennedy's endorsement of the release of Dr No and of Bond

and of Ian Fleming's books

deeply troubled the Soviet authorities.

They regarded Ian Fleming's influence

on Kennedy and CIA chief Allen Dulles as threatening.

'They're off!'

"All the greatest men are maniacs."

"They are possessed by a mania which drives them forward

towards their goal."

"The great scientists, the philosophers,

the religious leaders, all maniacs."

"What else but a blind singleness of purpose

could have given focus to their genius?"

"Would have kept them in the groove of purpose?

"Mania is as priceless as genius."

Someone like CIA Director Allen Dulles,

perhaps surprisingly, perhaps counter-intuitively,

was a big fan of Ian Fleming, was a big fan of James Bond.

"These people like Fleming,

maybe they can get us out of this stalemate.

Maybe all of this crazy stuff that we read about in Bond novels,

or we see on our screens in James Bond films,

maybe there's something to that.

Intelligence is nothing, really,

other than information and knowledge.

"It's not just a question of blowing up a building,

or shooting a prime minister.

Such bourgeois horseplay is not contemplated.

Our operation must be delicate, refined

and aimed at the heart of the intelligence apparat of the West.

It must do grave damage to the enemy apparat,

hidden damage, which the public will hear perhaps nothing of,

but which will be the secret talk of government circles.

But it must also cause a public scandal so devastating

that the world will lick its lips

and sneer at the shame and stupidity of our enemies.

Naturally, governments will know that it is a Soviet "conspiratatsia".

That is good. It will be a piece of hard policy

and the agents and spies of the West will know it too.

And they will marvel at our cleverness and they will tremble."

To capture some of the essence

of Ian Fleming's unapologetically smart and upper-class world,

a description would be needed

of so many powerful, intense vignettes and experiences.

A literary drawing room in London,

created by his three times married wife Ann in Victoria Square.

One that looked down on Ian Fleming's great creation of James Bond.

Of Fleming's own late love affair

with Jamaican socialite Blanche Blackwell,

mother of Chris Blackwell,

founder of Island Records, the record label of Bob Marley.

His wife Ann's extraordinary and loving affair

with a ballroom-dancing leader of the Labour Party, Hugh Gaitskell.

There's a story about Ian Fleming

being asked about who the chap was at the end of the table.

And he replied, "That's Hugh Gaitskell,

the leader of the Labour Party and my wife's lover."

"'The man in the mirror is the only one who can stop you

from being what you are.'

The thought flashed through his mind with a startling clarity.

In that instant, Bond knew that the end was nearer than he thought."

This world is a world which, in Jamaica,

included Noel Coward, Errol Flynn

and so many other players

in the decaying celebrity world of the 1950s.

It would need to include the suicide

of his young, drug-addicted and Egyptologist son, Casper.

Ian Fleming's own melancholy funeral in the small church at Sevenhampton,

attended by just mourners and his slightly late wife Ann.

It would need to know about the frowned-upon marriage

of his admired and glamorous brother Peter Fleming

to Celia Johnson,

soon-to-be the star of Noel Coward's and David Lean's

In Which We Serve and Brief Encounter.

It would also need to know

of Ian Fleming's extraordinary and judgmental mother Eve.

This world of intense luxury, private despair,

and in Ian Fleming's case, and in his own words,

of a very sad man at the heart of his life.

All together making up an intense and powerful world

now long gone.

Ian Fleming's work, however, remains at the centre of the myths

of our current cultural world.

Ian Fleming's personal world was extended by other events.

In 1956 Prime Minister Anthony Eden came to recuperate

at Ian Fleming's home Goldeneye in Jamaica...

...after the disaster of Suez.

Ian Fleming had a half sister.

His mother Eve had pretended to adopt a child,

conceived with the great painter Augustus John.

Amaryllis Fleming became a distinguished cellist,

second only in quality to Jacqueline du Pre.

She appeared in the 1969 film Connecting Rooms

as the arms and fingers of Bette Davis.

Ian Fleming's only young son Caspar

was named after Augustus John's son,

Admiral of the Fleet, Sir Caspar John.

Bob Marley was eventually to buy Goldeneye.

He turned it into a hotel, which it still is.

And it's interesting, and I think important,

that all of his Bond novels

were written outside England, in a very different context.

That isolation that Bond has

has to do with his own sense of dislocation,

which persisted throughout his life.

Well, I can say it's 90% from personal experience, really.

If I started sticking too close to the espionage,

true espionage work of today,

I should be in trouble with the Official Secrets Act in England.

His life was restless, not an easy life.

His father died in the First World War,

when he was nine years old.

It's not the same thing as an abandonment

of the kind that le Carre experienced,

but nevertheless a huge loss.

He was a member of the British establishment,

but it was never straightforward.

What made him was his experience of the Second World War.

He put on a uniform and had a role in life.

There was a great deal of sadness

and, to some extent, disillusionment

in his relationship with British national identity.

"Bond was suddenly aware

that he was living on the edge of an abyss.

He had known the feeling many times before,

but never quite so keenly."

"He was trying to kill a man who was trying to kill him."

"And in doing so, he had to acknowledge

the desolate world in which he lived."

"I found that one must try and teach people...

...that there's no top limit to disaster,

but so long as breath remains in your body...

...you've got to accept the miseries of life.

They will often seem infinite, insupportable.

They are part of the human condition."

An ordinary black leather case,

with 20 rounds of ammunition here and here.

There's an interesting debate among intelligence professionals

as to whether someone like James Bond

has been good or bad for the business.

Flat throwing knife. Press that button there.

Some people would argue that Bond has been incredibly good

for the British intelligence community.

But then there is other ways to look at this.

And some intelligence professionals would say

that Bond has been incredibly bad to their profession

because Bond gives the impression

that this is all about conspicuous consumption,

jet-setting, sex, martinis, Savile Row suits,

and that, arguably, is not a true reflection of the monotony

and the humdrum that accompanies a lot of intelligence work.

OK.

The gadgets seen in James Bond books and films

are not the idiosyncratic ideas of an imaginative author,

but are based on the actual extraordinary inventions

created during the Second World War

by the remarkable mind of Charles Fraser Smith,

one-time missionary.

Working in the clothing department of the Ministry of Supply,

he devised untold gadgets during the Second World War.

Fraser Smith is, quite simply, the inspiration for Q.

Maybe you've been down here too long.

The ultimate in British engineering.

You must be joking.

As I learned from my predecessor, Bond, I never joke about my work.

Aston Martin call it the Vanquish.

We call it the Vanish.

Oh, very good. Adaptive camouflage.

Tiny cameras on all sides project the image they see

onto a light emitting polymer skin on the opposite side, you see.

To the casual eye, it's as good as invisible.

Plus all the usual refinements, ejector seat, torpedoes,

target-seeking shotguns to shoot down mobile objects.

Why don't you acquaint yourself with the manuals?

You ought to shoot through that in a couple of hours.

It just took a few seconds, Q.

I wish I could make you vanish. Hmm.

Fraser Smith's Q gadgets

ranged from miniature cameras

to hair brushes containing a map

and steel shoelaces that could be used for garrotting the enemy.

After the war, he became a successful dairy farmer.

Magnificent, isn't she?

Zero to 60 in 3.2 seconds. Fully bulletproof.

Few little tricks up her sleeve.

It's a shame, really. She was meant for you,

but she's been reassigned to 009.

But you can have this.

Does it do anything?

It tells the time.

AI, as currently put together by computer scientist,

is really good at looking at a million photographs

and very quickly, very, very quickly,

a thinking fast assignment,

very, very quickly finding the photograph

of a Russian bomber in the sky.

What AI can't yet do is tell you

where that Russian bomber took off from,

where it's going and, most importantly of all,

what on Earth is it doing in the sky?

That's where you still need humans in the loop.

Ian Fleming himself was much less fascinated by all that

and, really, quite wanted to rid himself of Bond

at the end of From Russia With Love,

when Rosa Klebb,

one of the more sinister women in spy fiction,

poisons Bond with the blade embedded in her shoe.

All sorts of elements into the Bond persona

were imported into the film,

which really don't exist in the novels.

It's easy to forget how short Ian Fleming's life was.

He died in 1964, in his 50s.

He was a very heavy smoker.

He drank heavily.

He changed,

so Bond in the context of the decline of British power

and certainly the decline of British confidence,

Bond becomes an all-conquering hero.

James Bond in No Time to Die

marks a remarkable moment in cultural and social history.

The touching scenes of Bond as father and loving partner

and his death mark an intense change

in the cultural description of his persona.

The recent sale of the exclusive rights

to the depiction of Bond on film to Amazon

makes for an intriguing prospect of "where now?"

for this powerful representative.

Perhaps not just a British, but an international icon,

representing how audiences and politicians

describe the geopolitical and personal worlds

of our collective lived life.

We find Bond no longer representing a national identity.

He has become a family man,

which is not at all part

of the central Bond identity.

Bonne nuit.

Ferme les yeux.

She's not yours.

But... OK, the blue eyes? The... Just...

She's not yours.

OK. He has a five-year-old daughter.

He has a relationship, a loving relationship,

with Madeleine Swann.

And his death on screen

is not to protect any kind of national interest,

though, as ever, he is fighting evil,

it is to protect his daughter

and to protect Madeleine Swann.

You have made...

...the most... beautiful thing I've ever seen.

She's perfect...

...because she came from you.

I love you.

I love you too.

She does have your eyes.

I know.

I know.

In the lives of Ian Fleming and John le Carre,

there exist hauntings of the ghosts of fathers.

Ian Fleming's father

always existed as a perfect exemplar to live up to...

...and miss so much.

John le Carre raises the question

of whether it is possible to trust your father.

The father seems to always betray.

This is also the threat that all spies face

in their professional lives.

The State, our collective father,

also cannot be trusted.

It cannot support spies in their hours of greatest need...

...and may even, through state violence

and the actions of state traitors, kill you.

The argument made by the State

is that intelligence and espionage are essential,

whatever the human cost,

to protect the state and its population.

It is impossible in all this

not to hear the words of Jesus Christ on the cross

during his crucifixion by the Roman State,

asking his own father, the living God,

"Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The coincidence of the personal and professional

is vivid in the lives of Ian Fleming and John le Carre.

To this can also be added Winston Churchill,

who, even after his great achievements of the Second World War,

was to ask if his much loved but neglectful father

would be proud of him now.

In Triumph And Tragedy,

the final volume of his history of the Second World War,

Churchill wrote,

"I have achieved so much to have achieved nothing in the end."

Perhaps thereby prefiguring the same disappointments

as those felt by Ian Fleming and John le Carre.

You could say that the State is the father figure

and that David's ambivalent attitude towards his employers,

that's towards the State, towards Britain,

towards the establishment,

reflects his ambivalent feelings about his father.

He knew his father was a monster who ruined people's lives,

who was a man without any principle,

but he was also the only parent in his life,

the only parent figure that he loved.

Self-examination is an activity rarely undertaken by States

and their inhabitants, particularly, it may be said, in Britain.

How remarkable it is that in Britain,

in the writings of Graham Greene,

Ian Fleming and John le Carre,

intelligence and spying

contain personal and national self-examination.

In the case of le Carre,

the outcome becomes increasingly bleak and bitter.

Recently, the Guardian newspaper has suggested

that the increasing interest in spy fiction and films...

...is because of the distrust of the State by the general population.

I feel actually he's, to some extent, still in the room with me.

I still feel his hand on my shoulder

and I would be happy to see him again.

Not that I ever will.

The most visually attractive KGB dead letterbox

in the whole of London

was in the main Catholic Church, in Brompton Oratory.

At the main entrance, the instructions say,

"Look for the side altar,"

which contains a reproduction of Michelangelo's Pieta.

This is the dead Christ in his mother's arms.

The original is in St Peter's in Rome.

Look immediately below the statue...

...for the last words from the cross,

in Latin, "Consummatum est," "It is finished."

Then move along to the left of, "Consummatum est"

and there are two pillars set into the wall.

Go to the second one and at the level of the inscription,

put your hand behind it.

And there is the dead letterbox.

For intelligence organisations,

the nature of threats to the State

and changes in internal and external terrorism...

...have presented new risks and new solutions.

"Security comes at a price.

The threat of terrorism imposes restrictions on individual liberty,

as the gates to Downing Street mutely remind us.

And there is a price in terms of personal privacy

to allow the authorities to generate the pre-emptive intelligence

on which much of the effort to maintain public security rests.

The price buys the security

under whose wings the benefit of good government can be reaped."

I think the difficulty that intelligence agencies face

is that they cannot really communicate on their success, right?

They cannot say, "This is exactly the kind of terrorist attacks

that we manage to prevent."

This is where this sort of pervasive conspiratorial mindset,

which is ingrained in the public, kicks in.

The last two decades were mostly about counterterrorism.

We've entered a new phase

since the Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine.

And what we mean by that

is usually the return of great power rivalry,

even though it's always been there.

Not to say that counterterrorism has completely disappeared,

but, of course, a whole set of resources

is being relocated to different kinds of threats as we speak.

The reasons for joining intelligence services,

particularly British intelligence services,

have changed enormously over the last generation.

Anyone who wishes to become a member of either MI5 or MI6

or other branches of the intelligence setting,

all they've got to do is log in.

But in the old days, it was a tap on the shoulder.

The question was never, "Would you be interested in becoming a spy?"

If you applied to the Foreign Office,

you might get a supplementary communication

which said, "Would you be interested

in certain other jobs which may become available?"

I'm sure you're both wondering what all this is about.

Did you get any clues at our previous interviews?

No. Well, I made a guess.

Seems to have been wrong. What was it?

Some sort of Commando work,

but, obviously, if Ms Williams is involved...

As a matter of fact, your guess wasn't so far out.

Commando work isn't a bad way of describing it.

I want you both to go to occupied France.

France. How?

By sea or air. Only, you won't be going in uniform.

What do we do when we get there?

Organised resistance, act as liaison officers with London.

Would we be working together? I hope so.

Ms Williams would be your wireless operator.

I don't need to say the job is difficult and dangerous.

That must be obvious to you both.

Are there any questions before you decide?

What made you pick on us? It wasn't just haphazard.

We make extensive inquiries before we recruit our people.

Do you think we're the right people for the job?

We're sure of it. All right. I'm on.

Over the past couple of years,

especially since the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

we've seen quite a lot of changes

in how States and their intelligence agencies recruit agents abroad

and we've seen this especially when it comes to Russia.

We've seen that Russia now hires various agents online

and uses them to carry out various covert operations,

such as assassinations or sabotage operations,

attacking critical infrastructure

that is used to deliver various supplies to Ukraine.

We sometimes get access into their phones

and we see thousands or tens of thousands,

in some cases hundreds of thousands, text messages

that they have exchanged with their Russian handlers.

The Russians have told a number of youths in the UK,

who were meant to carry out an arson attack in East London,

to watch the TV show The Americans.

They tell us what to do and we do it.

That's how it works.

There is, since the war in Ukraine,

a significant increase in various covert operations

and we are now witnessing the most intense wave of sabotage

since World War Two.

And we've seen this in the UK. We've seen this in Germany.

We've seen this in the Czech Republic, Poland

and a number of other frontier states.

There's clearly been attempts to also blow up cargo planes.

After the wartime success of Ultra

and the breaking of the Enigma code at Bletchley Park,

the history of allied post-war intelligence events

includes intelligence-led actions

in Kenya, Malaya, Korea,

Operation Gold, Operation Ajax,

intervention in the Iran and the Congo,

Guatemala, the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam,

Operation Cyclone in Afghanistan,

missiles in Cuba, Gary Powers and the U-2 incident,

Aldrich Ames and Edward Snowden.

Grudgingly, I may be sympathetic

to some of Snowden's revelations about, you know, mass surveillance,

invasions into our privacy, grudgingly.

I'm absolutely not sympathetic

to the stuff he put in the public domain

that was tipping off our enemies.

The post-colonial intelligence services

of countries that had been within the British Empire

retained close connections with MI6 in Britain after independence.

More disturbingly, in the sometimes hasty withdrawal

and, in the case of India, the scuttle from colonial rule.

British colonial intelligence services

instituted and administered harsh and repressive policies

in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus,

showing a cruel and vindictive edge

to the late Imperial use of British and colonial intelligence capability.

Calder Walton goes on to argue,

after accessing the recently declassified records,

that despite the Cold War being emphasised

in history, fiction and films,

that it's Middle Eastern terrorism,

with what he says is chilling contemporary relevance,

that was a far bigger threat to Britain and the British Empire.

The colonial office in London was nearly spectacularly blown up

in 1946 by a female Stern Gang agent.

Later, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem,

killing 91 people.

The Irgun were led by Menachem Begin,

who was later to become the Prime Minister of Israel

and joint winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

'After a bomb explosion caused by terrorists

on the British headquarters of Jerusalem,

one entire corner of the King David Hotel,

a building of seven stories, was razed to the ground.

The stone floors were cut clean away,

as if they'd been hit by a 1,000-pound bomb from above.

Housed in the destroyed wing

were the greater part of the government office,

where work was in full swing at the time of the outrage.'

The British response in Kenya, Palestine, Malaya, Aden and Cyprus

often included rendition and torture.

Withdrawal from Empire was partially overseen by MI5,

throughout the British colonial withdrawal.

MI5 was closely involved in assessing risks and outcomes.

The official narrative of a peaceful change from Empire to Commonwealth

is challenged by the evidence being revealed by the documents

slowly being released from MI5

and the Joint Intelligence Committee files.

As there remain many documents still to be declassified,

there are likely to be further revelations

that are unlikely to be welcomed.

At the same time as colonial powers were withdrawing from Africa,

Russia, through the KGB, was becoming increasingly influential.

Though after the fall of the Soviet Union,

much of this influence was lost.

It is now China that has both soft and hard power

through its One Belt One Road economic development strategy.

The British government changed policy about secrecy

when it became clear that conspiracy theories

about intelligence were sounding less conspiratorial

than the government would like them to be.

Historians like Christopher Andrew and others

were allowed access to documents previously kept secret.

One of the reasons why intelligence services and intelligence agencies

have used fiction to, you know, communicate on their activities,

is also to establish, not only the legitimacy of secrecy,

but also to say that, "This is not what we're doing,"

but actually they're adding another layer of secrecy

and protecting what should remain secret.

The Middle East was always an area of dramatic concern and intervention.

The Israeli intelligence organisation Mossad was continuously effective.

At Entebbe, in the destruction of Iran's nuclear reactor,

in Operation Wrath of God

and most recently with widespread pinpoint targeting and assassination.

Israel's Foreign Intelligence Service, the Mossad,

has a long history in conducting assassinations.

Assassinations have been a part

of their statecraft toolkit, if you will.

But we are seeing them use more technology

and more sophisticated technology

to carry these out in a way where, perhaps,

the officers who are carrying these operations out

do not have to be in the theatre.

I think the nature of Israel's predicament

that it's surrounded by, it perceives as hostile states...

There are individuals within Israel as well

that are seen to pose a threat.

And that naturally, then, shapes their perception

and understanding of intelligence work.

There was still a steep learning curve there

when it came to al Qaeda, ISIS

and religiously motivated, or should I say,

politically-religiously motivated groups.

We had a head start because, obviously, we had to deal with

the IRA in Northern Ireland in the '70s and '80s.

So the counter-terrorism mission was not alien to us.

Northern Ireland remains a largely hidden area of British intelligence.

Recent revelations surrounding the double agent Stakeknife

further confirm that British intelligence success

in infiltrating the IRA may have led to the IRA's decision

to, in effect, jointly create or even force the peace process.

MI officers using back channels,

using the techniques of covert diplomacy

to lay the foundations for the Good Friday Agreement

that Blair and Clinton and Mo Molan put together.

'The great powers of the world

should avoid putting imperialistic pressure

on innocent and weak nations like Iran, Egypt, Tunis, Algeria,

Morocco, Palestine and others

and prevent the world from catching fire and disintegrating.'

One counter to the arguments

that spy fiction and films are overly dramatic

and emphasise the sensational

would be provided by the extraordinary events

surrounding the removal from office

of the Prime Minister of Iran in 1953.

The British and American governments,

through their secret services, MI6 and the CIA,

organised a coup, which lead to the overthrow

of the democratically elected and popular Prime Minister Mosaddegh.

It was led by Kermit Roosevelt, the grandson of Theodore Roosevelt.

The cause was that the British government

had lost its majority financial interest in the Iranian Oil Company,

through its nationalisation by Mosaddegh.

The problem about secrets is they need to remain the secret,

which is why you can't share them with others,

unless you're British, American, Canadian, Australian or New Zealand

because deriving from the Second World War,

you can't possibly fight a war

unless you share with your allies what you're up to.

International big business has made revolutions before now

to safeguard its interests.

At one time, it made them in the name of liberty, equality and fraternity.

Now with socialism to fight...

...it makes them in the name of law and order and sound finance.

Assassination.

If an assassination is going to be good for business,

then there will be an assassination.

"The Cold War was never as simple as good against evil.

It was about men in suits,

darkened corridors

and decisions made with a glance, a gesture or a word

that could kill or save thousands.

The truth was a commodity,

a weapon that the right person could use,

but no-one ever really told it.

Not in the business of espionage, anyway."

But our sharing extended to intelligence as well.

But because we have an intelligence sharing arrangement,

often known as the Five Eyes,

we can do so.

And being able to discuss what you deduce

about the way the world is going,

as being of one of only five countries that can do so,

gives us enormous advantage over all the others.

But the next question must always be, what are we missing?

So a sense of your own limitations.

Without that, you cannot be a good intelligence officer.

We need to acknowledge in 2026

and the deeper we go into the 21st Century,

arguably the biggest collectors and producers of intelligence

are not state intelligence agencies.

They are, in fact, corporates.

They are the Amazons, the Metas, the Facebooks, the Googles.

A senior and veteran intelligence officer

told historian Peter Hennessy about the dark side

of intelligence, spies and spymasters.

Hennessy describes this in his book The Secret State

as combining, amongst others, the Cold War,

the experience of Submariners on Polaris submarines,

posts in Eastern Europe during the Cold War

and clustering around the worlds of intelligence and nuclear weapons,

the first and last lines of the country's defence.

So, when you talk to intelligence professionals

about, "What's the sort of day-to-day reality

of working in an intelligence agency?"

they often talk about what they call the burden of secrecy.

You cannot talk about what you do with your wife or with your husband,

when you go home, or with your children.

Social anthropologists regard these as special enclaves.

These are areas of exceptional pressure.

They were in worlds apart.

This is the defence of the realm.

This extended after the Cold War, into special situations.

Dealing with al Qaeda and other terrorist groups

and dealing with countries that do not sign up

to the international human rights norms

is everyday business for us now.

These states do not have the equivalent

of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.

We are always going to have to make judgments

that, in retrospect, will be contentious

within our own courts of jurisdiction.

Internal terrorist investigations now face the same dark side issues.

Subtitles by Sky Access Services www.skyaccessibility.sky