All language subtitles for Kane Parsons & James Wan ¦ The A24 Podcast (1080p_30fps_H264-128kbit_AAC)

Hello, I'm James Juan and I'm Cain Parsons
and you're listening to the A24 podcast.

Cain, buddy.

How are you, man?

I'm doing well.

I'm doing good.

I'm well as well.

So we're here to talk about all things
back rooms and everything related to it

and yourself, obviously.

I have a lot I can say.

It's been pretty all consuming like four
years or so now.

So it's been, it's been a pretty long
journey for you from I guess from where

you started with the shorts, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The first short all the way to now the
full on proper feature film version of it.

Yeah.

And it's been quite the journey.

It is changed in ways that I definitely
did not expect when I initially posted

that short.

I mean, you were you were present at the
very beginning of that.

I think I think from not mistaken the
first time we met.

it was over zoom and I think you were in
post on an ochre man.

Right.

That sounds so you walked in and you were
eating a salad.

And you said hello.

And we talked for like one or two minutes.

I think that was, I think that was the
first time.

That was the first time we met by zoom.

Yes.

And I was eating a salad.

Oh, one of us.

It's seared into my brain.

And that's funny.

It's forever, my.

That's cool.

And but then we met in person when you
came up to LA.

Yeah.

To visit us on the set of night swim.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I can't remember what you was that.

That was 2023.

That was 2023.

Okay.

2023.

So just like three years ago.

Exactly.

Three years ago.

And how old were you when you came to
visit us?

What about 1717.

Amazing.

So I definitely have a lot of questions I
want to ask you.

And I guess the best place to possibly
start is, let's go all the way back.

You know, let's take us back.

I've actually go back beyond.

You know, to what you were doing that led
you to your interest in making shorts and

filmmaking in general.

So I'd love to hear a little bit about,
you know, your history there and your

passion and what kind of got you into all
of this.

Yeah.

I mean, I try, I try my best to trace it.

So I'm sure there's some things that are
like results of random subconscious.

You know, of course, there's going to be
so much noise to it that I can't quite

pick up.

But I know that I've always kind of had a
tendency or a bias since childhood to go

towards something a version of creativity
in some way.

And I've had, you know, an upbringing that
did not directly like disable that desire

is like I was able to find ways to do it,
mostly through like, you know,

like I was drawing growing up quite a bit.

Like that was a big thing.

I would spend a lot of time doing and that
would turn into like, like I eventually

got like, like an old like, did you cam
camera?

And I would like go and like do a little
stop motion animation Lego.

And it's like, I don't think it was a
particularly unique start in that way.

It's like, it's like, it's like,
it's a pretty common, I guess like

activities as a kid.

Yeah, I want to want to go in that
direction.

I remember probably by around the time I
was like nine or so.

I was like, I had like the term filmmaker
was a thing or director was in my brain

enough that I was like, yeah, I like,
I like movies.

I want to make movies.

That's cool.

I didn't have like a lot of access to the
internet until I was around like eight or

nine or so.

Right.

Because your parents were keeping you away
from the internet.

But it sounds to me like they were very
supportive of the kind of things that you

went to, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the fact like you said that they
didn't hold you back and they just kind of

let you experiment and play and basically
just explore your creativity.

So it's something to me like you were
really into, you know, like you were kind

of drawn to things that were off the
visual arts.

Like you were definitely attracted to
visuals.

Yeah, visuals my brain is very like
strictly visual most of the time,

like usually like words or visuals in my
head rather than actual like sounds and

stuff.

So it's usually like very just visuals.

So you see things in your head.

You see it and then you try it clearly,
but I can't get it out.

So I can't do for some reason I can't do
like written language in my head,

but I can only do visual.

So it's like I kind of, I totally get it
quite a bit.

Yeah, that's super cool.

Yeah.

So like I know that around that time I had
PlayStation 3 and I was very into,

I got into Minecraft for my friends and
there's this game little big planet.

Like these are sandbox games where you can
like the hell of create functions.

And so I was, you know, exploring what
it's like to, you know, create something

under the guys of like a technically a 3D
program even though it's inside of like a

game engine and it's like oriented as a
game.

I was sort of like getting the feeling for
like, oh, look, I can make a thing and

then other people come in and interact
with this thing.

And then I can kind of upscale the feeling
of like, I want to curate this experience

more and more.

These are not this.

Yeah, but what I would, I guess what I
like is like no different than what I

think most of my peers were doing like
even people who don't have a desire to go

into art fields.

It was like building stuff in Minecraft
creative mode was very like.

Right.

Right.

You just plan.

Basically, right.

It was playing and I would take a little
more seriously, probably where like I

would like come up with super contrived
rules for like some random like sub game

we wanted to play or something.

And then it was like simultaneously
watching a lot of VFX driven work on

YouTube, like independent YouTubers like
world or cruise sort of stuff.

You know, encouraging people to just like,
hey, like any anyone can kind of with the

right software.

You don't even need the good hardware for
it and it's like a simple camera.

You can you can do rudimentary VFX work
and I kind of got a bit of an appetite for

that and then I pirated way too much
software and got a bunch of viruses and

technically doing like some filmmaking
stuff on like my parents phone.

And it was kind of like game oriented
largely.

Like I said, you know what this is
actually good to talk about because what

it does show is your journey to become a
filmmaker actually went down to paths.

Right.

Like you were shooting stuff.

You were making little things on the side.

But also like you were saying your brain
of like being into the technical like the

computing side of things.

That then also informs the way you make
your little shorts.

Right.

Yeah.

So you understanding the computing aspect
of filmmaking of just storytelling in

general.

And how you would use that to inform the
kind of stuff that you would make.

And so that became a big part of what you
did.

Right.

Like a big part of like, you know,
like all that sort of computer language

and programming and understanding that you
have there and sort of using that as the

visual effects sort of backbones to what
you were making your shorts with.

And so I think that's really interesting
that you didn't actually necessarily go

down the path of hey, I want to be a video
game maker.

But I used to step to storytelling
filmmaking, but using the craft that you

had the passion and you had learn acquired
to kind of assist you in your filmmaking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like I definitely it was around
like the beginning of middle school that

that's what I was, you know, getting this
software and trying out after effects for

the first time and was like doing a bunch
of tutorials and it was mostly like

project based where, you know,
I'm getting excited about a scene or a

visual or a moment in my head that I
wanted to see exist.

But it had, there was nothing surrounding
it supporting that moment.

So it's like, okay, so now I got to learn
how to do these things so I can make that

moment.

So I got to learn this software.

And also like I need to learn how to edit
it properly so I can put the right kind of

reverb on this music that I'm hearing.

Right.

So it's a whole little short film around
this moment, just so it makes sense in a

context and then that was kind of like I
accidentally, but I kind of just like went

through the process a few times with a few
different short films when I was again,

like these things are not on YouTube for a
reason.

Like I've probably added that.

But like, you know, I was, I was
definitely pretty active doing stuff in

any free time I could get.

It was like the only thing I would do
starting starting in like end of

elementary school, which became a pretty
like laser focused sort of obsession.

And I think like it was once I got it,
once I really kind of like felt like I was

getting a hang of After Effects and like
the 3D tools available to me in there and

taking advantage of some student licenses
and stuff.

Then that just kind of became an
addiction.

And I was like only only using,
but you enjoy it.

Right.

Oh, yeah.

You're using this program so much fun.

It's so funny because I started using
After Effects in high school.

And you know, I started using it because
it was part of my school program and stuff

like that.

I got bored of it.

The technical stuff.

I enjoyed the technical stuff of
filmmaking and doing stuff like this.

But they're just sitting.

I got to a certain point of way.

I'm like, uh, this is too much for me.

I just want to get out there.

I just want to get out there and just
shift from the hip and just, you know,

kind of, you know, just become a bit more
running gun.

Right.

I found the process a little bit to the
technical side.

Sometimes a little bit too limiting at
least for me.

But clearly you enjoyed it.

And you embraced it.

Yeah, it's because I think the,
I like, I have a hard time with

uncontrollable variables and whatnot.

So I think that for me, I enjoy a certain
level of running gun.

But, but I, I think I am the kind of
person who needs to know every single

thing about the thing I'm making before
fairing any other people are even involved

with it or before anything else even
before there's a chance for something to

get away.

But that's a really good trait for a
direct to the half.

I am well prepared.

Yeah, of course.

But I think like, you know, because I was
a kid in middle school, I wasn't like,

I was doing filmmaking, but I wasn't like
serious.

Like, it was inherently there was like a
joke component to what I was doing.

But it was like, you know, just playing
around it.

It was a career path yet at that point,
right?

That wasn't thinking about it in that way.

I did a few like local level film
festivals around that time.

And like, so, you know, part of my brain
was definitely thinking about it in that

way.

But I was still thinking like,
okay, time to go through high school and

then I'll go to college for film school.

And then I don't know what happens after
that.

But I'll probably make movies.

It's like some vague notion of that.

So let's talk about that.

How in your journey did all of that what
you just stayed at there, right?

Let you to your very first short with back
rooms.

I'm sure you made a lot of other stuff
before that.

But how did all this lead to back rooms?

It was a beginning of the pandemic.

I got into blender.

I started teaching myself blender.

I was fortunate enough to have a situation
where I was just, you know, blocked that

home and I was doing zoom classes and I
was able to sort of...

So this was 2020?

2020.

And how old were you?

I was 14.

Okay.

You know, I was getting into blender.

I was maybe didn't mention earlier.

I'm a big fan of the valve properties like
portal and half life.

And those majorly informed a lot of my
creative sensibilities, I think growing

up.

And that was around the time half life
Alex was coming out and I was wanting to

do fan art for that.

And that got me like really motivated to
figure some stuff out in blender.

And then I did some things and then I was
like, wait a minute.

Now I just kind of knew how to use blender
and so I could start within like a couple

of like two weeks or so.

Like blender is really intuitive.

You know, when you're young and near
software, you're able to kind of pick it

up throughout this most is kind of like
quickly.

But I do think it's just genuinely a...
they've streamlined the software in such a

way that it is like very accessible.

But I started doing that.

I made a few films again like that year.

But then by 2021, I had gotten back into a
tack on Titan, which is obviously a pretty

big property around the world.

And I was basically adapting set pieces
from that into... found footage,

but it was in like 1930s, 1940s war film
footage of like set pieces inside that

world.

And those like, that was when my channel
actually took off.

Okay, wait, hang on.

You were creating images for that.

But just just inventing, making them up on
through blender or whatever program.

Yeah, what I was doing is because an anime
manga.

This was like a fan kind of like,
you know, short of what a fan project.

So it was an anime manga and what I was
doing was like a series of these videos.

Well, I did one thinking it was going to
be one, but then people lost their minds

over it.

started doing more.

But it was like, cool.

Basically, what would it look like?

What would it actual honest perspective
into that world look like if it was

somehow real.

So just like, what does a scarier more
realistic approach of just viewing this

thing look like?

And so I put out using blender.

So it's all things from the series, but
just through a slightly different lens.

But was it still animation?

Like, I like to do a lot of compositing.

So it looks roughly, I mean, like hoping
you see past the effects flaws.

Like the goal being it looks like real
authentic.

But it really was like 30s or 40s.

Like action.

Yeah, black and white live action,
totally like trying to look photo real.

And so like that, I'd never had any kind
of engagement like that before.

It's like the first one did like 10
million views and like the next one did

like another 10 million.

Like, it kept like going big in my
channel.

I think got 200,000 subscribers from that.

And then wow.

But I did that for all of 2021.

And I was writing a high with like that
was really exciting.

Yeah, it was great having you getting
validation from basically fans out there.

It was like motivation to like every week
they wanted to do things.

Like I was constantly kind of turning
stuff out.

And that was just fun.

It's cool.

Especially during the lockdown when you
didn't really have...

Yeah, I certainly found a lot to do during
that time.

But then I got fatigued by it because I
used up all the plot points in the series

that I could adapt.

And people wanted more still.

And I was kind of like, okay, well,
I kind of wanted to do other things now.

that winter in 2021.

I guess for a preamble, I have to do a
preamble about what the backgrounds are.

I would assume probably.

It was a little bit of history of where
all that comes from.

Yeah, for 2019, there is this for chain
post, which is totally anonymous.

Anything posted there, or at least in this
context, is not really traceable.

And we can't at this point in time
determine who ever who posted any of this,

which has been a big defining part of the
backgrounds.

It's weird.

But basically, it was an image posted of
an off-yellow sort of dingy.

It was unclear if it was an office space
for the back of a furniture store, or what?

With just a caption, like a single
paragraph caption, basically setting up a

concept of, if you're not careful,
and you know clip out of reality in the

wrong areas, and know clip is a video game
term for phasing through solid surface,

like out of the world.

If you pull out of reality in the wrong
areas, you'll end up in the backgrounds,

which is essentially an essentially
endless array of like kind of not quite

repeating, but you could think of it as
procedurally generated, or just like,

you could keep going and walking in any
direction, and you'll just be stuck in

this world of, you know, drop ceiling,
this yellow wallpaper that's just kind of

like, self-relooking and great.

Right.

So it's a maze like, well, that it just
kind of keeps going.

It's a maze like world that doesn't have
an inherent point to it.

And I think the idea, what I always
appreciated is that it's just described

like, it's a natural phenomenon.

There's nothing like, like spiritual or
like, there's nothing more or moreality to

it.

So it's not like, it's a divine judgment.

If you've done wrong, if you've got guilt,
Harvard, it'll take you away or something.

It's just like, it's not hell.

Yeah, it's not hell.

It's not even like quite purgatory because
you don't do anything to end up there.

It just randomly happens and you can't
really do anything to get out.

Like I said, a procedural dungeon run.

It's just a hypothetical, like,
it's just, it's playing into the feeling

of glitching and getting stuck in a video
game basically.

Exactly.

Right.

There's no fairness in it.

It's just like, that really sucks if that
happens to you.

And so that's why it kind of caught on.

It's like, man, that's like a pretty
abysmal.

Can you imagine that?

It's like, you know, imagine being in
like, that monotonous, you know,

it's like such a mundane mediocre sort of
environment that could be.

Right.

And any place, basically.

Yeah, because visually, it's not that
sexy, right?

It's not, it's not like a dark creepy
place.

That's why people read comes from.

Yeah.

Just the mundane is it just like how bland
it looks, right?

I've seen it.

It's done it with a picture, right?

Like that one picture, but then people
started building upon it, right?

Yeah.

And stories to it.

So they're adding myth and law to it.

Is that how it is?

So that picture that picture was posted.

Someone else saved it.

I mean, that picture had been floating
around since the early 2000s.

It's from a furniture store in Oshkosh,
Wisconsin.

But basically, yeah, they posted it with a
caption.

And that became a screenshot.

And then like, it, that screenshot floated
around like everywhere as a meme around

May of 2019.

And I saw it.

I was in middle school.

I was aware of it.

I didn't see it.

And immediately go, whoa, I need to make
a, I need to make a series and a movie.

Right.

That was very, that wouldn't have ever
crossed my mind.

It was, it was more of a, this is,
this is a random thing on the internet.

But it's weird, the intriguing.

And I can tell why people are interested
in this.

And I kind of want more of it,
but there's nothing more to get because

it's just an image in a caption.

And then then I moved on and everyone else
moved on.

And we stopped hearing about the
backgrounds for the most part.

And you would get an occasional reference
to it here and there.

You would get, you know, memes,
a character falls through the ground out

of a teapoot.

Like Peter Griffin falls through the
sidewalk and lands in the background or

something.

And then punchline is just wow,
he's fucked.

Pretty much.

And, and it basically, like people I
understand now, and I did kind of

understand at the time.

Like there were some groups on like,
like wikis and stuff writing, basically

doing more with the notion of the
backgrounds where it's like, what if,

sort of like a game like level system to
it.

And again, like I'm, I don't need to
misrepresent like that side of the community.

But it's in my understanding that it's
more of like a community driven sort of

like the scp foundation, if people are
aware of that.

It's sort of like most anyone can add
because there's no direct author and

there's no claim to authorship of this
thing.

So it's just like the main lore that
people would consider outside of my

adaptation of backgrounds would be just
kind of a miscellaneous collection of

little entries that like many different
people with many different views of the

background.

Right.

Right.

But it somehow viewed as one coherent
thing, even though it's definitely not.

Got it.

So then you came into it.

Yeah.

And then tell us your contribution to the
world.

I mean, I just wanted to like I didn't,
in my mind, I wasn't thinking of like,

these people are not getting the
backgrounds.

I'm gonna step in and show up.

It was not, you know, like so far.

I was just into, you know, like I was
getting back into these things in life.

You know, it's a discovery process.

Right.

And you discovered it.

I was, I was getting back into these
liminal space photo compilations and stuff.

And it was like, man, this is,
I want to scratch this itch.

I want to see what comes with this.

And I wanted blender and I made
environments that felt true to what the

background wanted to be.

And we're trying to be in.

I just kind of like move the camera
through.

And it's like, this is just a fun relaxing
project where I tried to evoke the feeling

of this place.

But in the video form rather than imagery.

I didn't even like the opening thing was
just like a thing I filmed after I did

everything else when I was like,
okay, well, to make this a proper like

film, like how do I, what's a way in,
what's a quick, easy way in that just gets

us out of the real world and into the rest
of the short.

And it's like, just got my friends at
school one day just to stand around and

they didn't really know what it was for
exactly.

And I just like got my, I was doing it on
my phone and I ran the whole thing through

the VCR.

So, so it, you know, it doesn't look like
iPhone footage really.

But I guess like at the end of it just
can't go to the ground and they're like,

what was that?

Why did you do that?

And it's like, I'll show you in a few
days.

And then I got posted and it didn't do
great for like the first two days.

And then somehow, I guess like some,
some shadow figure behind the scenes

pulled the lever or something because it's
like, it suddenly started getting in the

inboxes of, or sorry, in the like the
feeds of certain reaction youtubers and

they started watching it.

And that made it like, go, go nuts.

And it went nuts.

But pretty much immediately within the
same day.

Because I'm neglecting to mention one kind
of important part of this, I think,

which is that I had had this other story.

And you know, as you do just another
random story that I had in my head.

For a little bit at the time, it wasn't
defined exactly, but it was like enough of

an engine there that is like, I knew I
wanted to explore.

I didn't know how, like what the
opportunity would be.

And I realized backgrounds could just
totally like these two things could melt

together.

And then boom, there's like a very
specific plot and structure that I can

just start immediately.

And I did.

And so like within like a day of that
first short, I started teasing this

element with like this, the Async Research
Institute, which makes it more of a sort

of sort of like a worn down.

Like a mystery techno thriller with
supernatural elements, like underneath.

I'm not great with genre labels, but I
would say that's kind of what it's become.

Right, right, right.

So obviously it's not very innocently,
but then as you sort of like progressing,

the unease came to you, like, well, maybe
I can put a supernatural spin to this.

Yeah, well, I think it's inherently
supernatural.

Like my version of supernatural,
I personally am really drawn to any...

like I need my supernatural to feel like
hard sci-fi usually.

I like things to feel like nature.

I mean, like I was talking about the
backgrounds.

I think I personally as a creative
struggle with things that promote an

overly human view of existence and of
life.

And usually I'm biased towards things that
feel like humans are incidental to nature

in some way, rather than being like a
driving factor to the world, right within.

And letting the laws of the universe be
more, you know, factors that resulted in

our consciousness being the way it is in
perceiving a sort of sense of importance,

being like derived from just happenstance
and being essential to existing and living

and procreating and stuff.

So, anyway, I feel like what I was excited
about with that concept was being able to

sort of get past like the initial like,
okay, we have a short about someone

falling into the backgrounds and it's a
scary place.

But I think it's like more intriguing than
people give it credit for.

Like I think people do miss the marks
sometimes with their own backgrounds

projects when they go for like a space
where the lights get too dark,

it gets too green.

It's like scary, scary, like it's trying
to be like a dark haunted house or a

dungeon, it just falls apart because
that's not right, right, right, right.

The original image is very bright and it's
very like low contrast and kind of like

faded looking.

So you're saying, try that the key here is
to not make it look like a horror movie.

Yeah, I think that's the blandness,
the simplicity, the fact that it feels

like everyday life is what makes it kind
of terrifying.

It's the context in the way it
extrapolates pretty much infinitely.

That's like the, that's where the horror
lies.

It can't be in the inherent visual.

It's the context that does it.

Though the visual is off putting.

And can I ask you, so philosophically,
do you think there is this concept of the

fear of technology?

Or obviously that's not the case because
you know, you're obviously embracing

technology in such a big way.

But do you think, is that what you
speaking to to some degree here when you

said, you know, like you sort of leaning
to the more like the hard signs of way,

you know, a lot of like the scary stuff is
coming from.

Yeah, so I would say that the background
is the thing in the first place because.

I mean, I would say one of the main
anxieties it's reacting to if not the main

anxiety is this sort of pervasive.

I don't use the word anxiety again.

The pervasive fear that that, you know,
with all the resources that we,

I guess, at least in this part of the
world where we have the resources and we

have the connection of the internet.

Our feeling like is, you know,
we have more information than ever.

It's starting to mean less and less the
more we get.

Information is starting to get put through
a blender and fed back to us in a way

where the human race is now starting to all
play as itself it almost starts to seem.

A little bit in the matrix.

A little bit.

But I think that like gradually and this
is not like new and I'm not saying

anything like profound about this because
I think I think we've known this for a

while.

But we've been like trending for a few
centuries into like a spiral of

industrialism that's causing and it's not
like malice.

It's not like malicious by any means.

Like yes, there are individual people that
you could name and say they are malicious

and that's easy to do.

But it's the fact that it's a natural
phenomenon that arises in like every

culture and it's a systemic thing that is
almost impossible to root out of our

species.

And so there's these, you know,
obviously patterns beyond us that I try to

engage within a sympathetic way.

And I think that like the background is
reacting to the fear of like, okay,

we're kind of getting stuck in this this
monoculture.

Literally even in an architectural context
where you are everywhere you go,

like a drop ceiling is maybe not the most
prevalent.

It's not like everywhere in the world,
but like at least in this part of the

world like drop ceilings are kind of a
symbol of of uniformity or or.

I guess efficiency, I mean they're pretty
pretty effective at what they do.

They're not bad.

I'm not criticizing the drop ceiling.

But it's functionality to them, but
they're not the most interesting or forms.

It's the idea of spending all of existence
in that place in that non space basically

of like that industrial environment that's
it is purgatory to some degree.

It is.

It's a purgatory that we built.

It's not like a like a purgatory beyond
humanity.

It's like one that we're clearly pushing
ourselves towards, but we've been prisons

for ourselves.

That's essentially what is we're building
prisons for ourselves.

Yeah, it's like getting us further and
further from what the human nervous system

evolved to basically thrive on.

And we're kind of getting past a place
where like, you know, we've evolved into

our environments and then we change the
environments and now we're I wouldn't be

surprised if that's doing doing something
to to a lot of.

It's subconscious.

And just the general, you know,
energy and health of people.

So can I ask you then?

So a lot of these themes that you have in
your head, did you feel like the back

rooms?

You know, like that was a great,
like a good platform for you to explore

other ideas that you have.

So like what led to like subsequent,
you know, like other shorts that came

along, you know, in the back rooms.

Well, you said that guy, I want to
explore, you know, like other elements

within this world and then that basically
what led you down like the series of them.

Yeah, I wanted to, I mean, largely
expressed what I was just talking about a

little bit.

It was like a lot of it for me is just
exploring these ideas myself and I want to

wait at check myself and test myself.

And if I could find a way to wrap up
these, you know, academic ideas in a

creative package, then I can get
creatively excited about it.

And it's like medicine with the sugar sort
of where I'm like internalizing these

things and testing myself on these things
and not in like a true.

There's no compared, like this is not
comparable at all to like an actual school

experience.

It's not what I'm trying to say with that.

But for me, just as someone who enjoys
learning and enjoys just knowing more

about literally anything.

It's kind of what the film is about in
some ways.

It's like, you know, that part of the
brand that forces human beings into a

state of curiosity.

So did you find when you started making,
you know, this series of these shorts that

there were many people out there that
shared the same interest as new,

like, you know, the people were fascinated
by what you were doing and they wanted to

see more of it.

Is that what kind of like kind of force
you down that path or not force,

but you know, made you want to go down and
continue.

I was very aware that those people existed
and it was kind of the audience that I

was...

The audience that I speak to is the
audience that I'm also a part of,

which I think is maybe why I've had a
decent rhythm with them for as long as I

have, which is like...

I grew up watching... like web series and
ARGs and like consuming that stuff and not

necessarily when I say watching,
it's...

I guess I mean, just following because
sometimes it's not even something to watch.

Sometimes it's you're visiting a web page
and you're looking at the metadata of

files shared on that page and you get
story information from that.

Or you're, you know, like a lot of the
time you're actually paying attention to a

YouTuber who's talking about and
summarizing a series because sometimes

these series get so dense and complex and
hard to follow.

That the real story, like a more
entertaining story is in the recap of it.

So I kind of like engineered my stuff to
work on a recap level, I think.

And a lot of the stuff on YouTube has been
exactly that.

And I was amazed, like I was kind of
losing my mind when the shorts first

caught on because it was like all the
people I looked up to online were like

suddenly talking about it.

For obvious reasons that would be exciting,
I think for anyone in that position.

But it was like...

Can you imagine who are some of these
people?

It's just like YouTube channels,
like a brand of people, next-po,

night-mind, I think it's like...

Forget like a full list of the time,
but it was like film theory.

It was so cool.

It was, you know, like it must have been
validated.

It felt like it felt like it was very
weird.

It was bizarre.

It was validating, but also like...

Is this great?

Yeah, but I guess it was just like seeing
like getting it through my teenage head

that like the world that I watch on a
screen.

And I know this is so obvious and I knew
it, but I didn't feel it.

It was like...

I guess like when I was younger,
like so many of the things that I looked

up to artistically, sort of like...

above in some way.

Like there's some inaccessible barrier
there where it's like...

Right.

You could never meet these people.

You could never never never...

Never interact with this brand or this
fictional world in any way.

Right, right, right, right.

It's like I'll get to know different
worlds.

You can do fan art, but like you don't get
up there.

And it's like...

So here with this, you actually have the
opportunity to break through it.

And that's kind of what you did,
right?

And it's been a very casual way with no
fanfare.

I mean, it was exciting, but it's very
simple.

And I was like, oh, this is what it is.

This is how it feels.

That's usually how it works.

I don't know.

When you're always expected, that's when a
good stuff happens, right?

You just do what you do, be passionate
about what you want to do.

And like I've always said, you know,
like I say that to...

to sort of young filmmakers like yourself
and you know, anyone out there who ask me

for advice.

I just say, just make your movies,
just do it.

And you know, if you do something great,
people will discover it.

Especially with technology that we have
today, right, like YouTube.

I mean, like there's so many platforms out
there that you can just put it out there.

Go shoot something for no money.

You don't need money.

You just, you can shoot anything with your
phone these days, right?

You don't need a special camera.

It's like, like I had to have when I was
growing up making these little shorts.

So just go make something and put it out.

They can be anything and you're bound to
find fans.

And that, that fandom could be...

It doesn't matter how small they are,
how big they are.

It helps to flame the creativity in you.

And it makes you want to do more.

And so, and I think that's kind of
basically what happened for you, right?

I mean, I've been... I continued doing...
I did a few different series on YouTube.

And I've been doing these with all the way
up until things became hot enough on this

film that we were good to go.

And I was able to jump over the floor.

Can I ask you how many shorts did you make
of the backroom series?

I don't know the number.

It's like three hours or so currently.

So it's enough of... it's like...

It's like a bit where it's...

The Async has an arc and then there's a
few like three videos that aren't from

that perspective, but are kind of like the
first short where...

So then, okay, I need to ask this.

At what point during any of these process
did you eventually say to yourself or

thought to yourself that, hey,
one day I could potentially turn this into

a feature film?

Well, I mean, it was...

I put out those shorts in January of 2022.

Or I started doing it the first short one
out in January 7th.

It was like less than a month later that I
started getting my first emails from

anyone in the industry.

I had no interaction with anyone in the
industry ever.

Like, prior to that point, so I was
definitely... I was caught off guard.

I was very cautious and paranoid.

Whereas I was like, I've grown up seeing
just like so many beloved IPs.

Just get torn to shreds by, you know,
random suits in the industry who grab an

IP, take it, pulverize it by giving it to
some writer who knows nothing about the

property, and then film it's dead and
everyone hates the movie.

And it was, you know, not maybe a
worthwhile adventure.

But so I was like cautious of that.

I had that in my head.

And it was like assuming, okay,
I don't find something really helpful.

That's what it's going to be.

So I met with a lot of people and it was
like it turned into like no meetings ever.

And then suddenly in February,
I think every single day, every weekday

had like three meetings, like generals.

So really happened that quickly.

Almost instantly.

It was like a binary, like it switched on.

So that's incredible.

And I... Atomic Monster was one of the
first...

It was like within the first...

I think it's like the second week of that
probably.

Right.

And then I met with 21 laps as well.

And I did like...

I remember being conflicted.

And I forget the exact order of things.

But then there was...

You guys came together.

Together.

Yeah.

And then I talked to all you guys
together.

And that was sort of like, you guys solved
the conundrum I was having.

Because I liked the comic and I had 21.

And then boom, they decided they wanted to
do the thing together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

I mean, listen, we, you know, credit to
you.

Because, you know, we saw the potential in
it.

And we felt like, you know, we wanted to
work with you.

Like, you know, we, we saw, you know,
like the kind of brain that you have.

The kind of creativity that you have.

And we definitely saw the potential that
you have to kind of take this project and

make it something bigger.

Right?

Like, you know, kind of break it into the
future world.

And yeah.

And so, you know, between, you know,
us at Atomic Monster and 21 laps.

We're like, let's collaborate.

Let's collaborate.

And the more the merrier.

Thank you for doing that.

We can do with this.

Yeah.

So...

So I'm glad to hear from your perspective
how it came together.

There are unknown unknowns everywhere.

So I'm just going to make sure I don't do
anything without like quadruple checking.

And so I was very thorough about like, you
know, beginning a process with you guys.

And it was, I mean, it was just very,
I felt it was very positive.

And I felt like it was what I was looking
for.

That's cool.

What I was looking for.

And was, was really like, backgrounds on
YouTube is very creatively fulfilling for

me.

And I will do it.

I can, I will do more in the future.

And I'm not like leaving YouTube by any
means.

But no.

It's great.

But, but it is limited.

Like it came about because I guess like
what you were saying a moment ago with,

you know, the accessibility of YouTube and
filmmaking and whatnot is that like,

I like, I found when maybe what I would
advise, although I'm not, I don't feel

like I'm quite a place to give advice
here.

I mean, we should let this film come out
and then like wait a year or two before I

start saying anything.

No, man, you can always give it advice.

I feel like in the short period of time,
you've experienced a lot.

Yeah.

So you can speak to your own experience.

I can speak to your own experience.

I can speak to your own experience.

And people kind of like, you know,
latch onto whatever.

Because, because almost the first thing I
would say is like the thing that I've

learned the most is like what worked for
one person is like don't expect it to work

for you.

Unless it's like a universal truth or
something.

Like it's, it's kind of like, it feels
like the most simple thing you do have to

follow is, is.

I think what I managed to do, whether or
not I realized it with the background

stuff.

And with what I was doing on YouTube is
like, I found a rough thing that I could

achieve.

It's like, what can I do with free
software on a laptop in the blender?

A bit of After Effects touch up.

Like what can I do there?

With no extra anything, no live action
shooting, no actors.

Like what, just me, my microphone.

Like what can I do there?

And then what's the, if I just keep
working on that, refining that until it

becomes like the best version of itself.

It becomes like a unique product.

Oh, I just said cut that.

I just said product.

Oh my God.

Do you know what happens when I go to LA?

Yeah.

I absorbed the language.

Now it starts my friend.

I know.

This is why I'm just business for one
movie and now I'm kidding me.

Yeah, this is why I'm going to the woods
after I'd say it.

Listen, this is so great stuff to have.

Because I have to take it to market and we
have to make this movie so objectively it

is a product.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's an item that has...

It's so much money involved.

You know, like, as artistic as we want to
be, as much of like, oh, tears as we want

to be.

We have to think about, you know,
like the studios that are financing our

movies, the investors that are financing
our movies.

And we do kind of have to trade it, you
know, to some degree with that respect.

And the key here is, you know,
for someone like myself who's been doing

this for a while now is like, how do you
somewhat appease what the investors are

looking for?

But yet making it your own.

So every movie that you make should be
personal to you.

Yeah.

You know, like, it doesn't matter how
commercial it is.

You know, like the big filmmakers that I
truly respect.

You know, all filmmakers as well.

But from the likes of your Steven
Spielberg to Tim Burton to whomever, right?

They, they're able to play in that
commercial world.

But yet every movie is super, super
personal to them.

And that is how I approach one of my
movies.

And I think that's who you are as well.

I feel like whatever movies you make here
onwards, everything would be highly

important for you.

Every film you make will speak to you on
some level that you want to talk about.

You know, that's good to have.

So, you know, you're just going to be
mindful.

You know, as, as a director now,
making these kind of movies, you kind of

have to wear two hats, right?

Yeah, what I feel is like, again,
going back to like, because I do get full

creative satisfaction out doing stuff on
YouTube.

There's equal to what I do here.

There's almost no difference.

It's just, it's a bit of a different
process.

And I socialize a lot more when working
like, like I just did on vac rooms.

But, but I like in terms of fulfillment,
it's identical.

And I do make a living off of YouTube.

Like, it's, you know, it's, it's,
I don't need much.

I have a desk and I have a laptop.

That's amazing.

I stand in an empty room at my desk.

There's something I want to ask before we
get further down here.

Because like, this is so great to kind of
hear, talk about, you know, the history

and how you started all this.

Obviously you started very young doing all
this stuff, right?

Your parents.

What do I think about all of this?

You know, when you were just starting out
and then eventually now you, you know,

you're making a first feature film in
Hollywood.

How do they feel?

They must be super proud and they, they
must feel, you know, like, I don't know.

It must be surreal for them as well to
see, you know, the trajectory and the

journey that their son have taken.

I don't want to speak for them,
but, but I would.

They are proud and, and they're,
I mean, my parents are both really create

people and have obviously, like...

I mean, in my life and have always, like,
you know, helped this come about in a way.

Like, by just, by not doing it,
but just by not being in the way.

I think it's like, you can be two hands on
and you can be two hands off and I think

they were just like...

They found the right balance.

They found the right balance.

And, you know, like, they, they get what's
going on and they, you know, like,

they're not in the industry.

So it's not, like, they get it,
get it.

But, but you know, what do you live?

What do you live?

I don't...

Me and all of them live in Northern
California, like, Sonoma County, like.

..

Oh, okay.

That's where you're from.

Yeah.

Sonoma Marin.

Right.

And I, you know, like, like, they get it
and like, I talk to them like once a week

or so.

Like, I'll, I'll call them individually
and talk to my parents and try to talk to

my younger brother.

And it's been hard on this film just
because of how busy it's been to,

like, stay in contact with everyone in my
life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you're making a movie, you have
pretty much isolated from the rest of the

world.

Yeah.

Which happens.

I don't mind.

I like, I usually am this way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's fine.

Yeah.

But it's people like us.

It's actually not a bad thing.

Yeah.

It works quite well.

It's been like 10% more than then I'm
maybe used to.

Right.

So it's been, it's been a little,
a little more on the intense side.

But like, again, I'm here for that.

But yeah, they, they, um, I try to,
you know, loop them in and then they're

going to become another premiere when we
do that next week.

And it's going to be, you know,
a whole lot of fun.

So I got front and, you know, they've,
they've, you know, they're, they're

familiar with the film.

Like, they got to, they were, I was
showing them everything we were doing.

Yes, we were building up to this.

And so, you know, they, and my dad's
always like on YouTube looking at like

reaction videos to my stuff.

And it's constantly, constantly,
like, you know, it's a good thing to do.

That's what they should be doing.

Yeah.

So, okay.

I want to talk about your feature film
experience, right?

So you've transitioned from these shorts.

And to, you know, the process into making
a feature film through this pretty big

infrastructure, right?

You know, of making this feature with,
you know, a proper film crew up until now.

You've pretty much done everything
yourself, right?

Yeah, mostly.

And your actors are your friends.

But now you're moving into the super big
world.

Yeah.

And into the big leagues, so to speak.

And you're working with professional crew,
professional cast actors, you know,

what was that like?

What was it like for you at the very start
of that initial process?

Was it overwhelming?

Or did you fully embrace it?

Or was it a little bit of everything?

So unlike some things that I've mentioned
in our conversation, like, that wasn't

abrupt.

Like, there was a very gentle lead into
that that made sense over COVID period.

And so, you know, I went up to Vancouver
to do a test shoot in April.

So that would have just happened over a
year ago.

And that was my first time working with a
crew that is not like my personal friends

from like high school or something.

And so that that I think I had questions
my head.

But I think it was like easy enough
because it was a skeleton crew.

It was pretty small and we were doing like
a very minimal lean test shoot.

Right.

And I think there was something I found
which was like, you know, I had it in my

head wondering, you know, all these
notions of what a director has to be and

what I have to be facilitating.

What do I not know?

I'm assuming there's a million things I do
not know and I'm thinking of all the ways

that could poison the process.

But what I found is...

It could be a good thing, right?

Oh, you don't know what you don't know.

But exactly.

Like, I don't know what I don't know.

So, like, I'm like, you know, doing what I
can't.

And like, I'm realizing, like,
as I'm getting there and we're starting

and it's like, that's all you can.

That's all anyone can do.

That's like literally what I'm just...

I go here.

I know what I want.

I don't know why I'm overthinking that
part.

I just need to tell the people around me
what I want.

And concise manner and explain why we want
it so they can also be personally

motivated to achieve that thing.

And then we're just doing that in a few
different ways.

And then we...

The day's done and we got what we wanted
and boom.

And then we do it again.

And like, I guess I just...

I think I did overthink it up front.

And again, those were...

That was just the test shoot.

So it's like a bit of a...

I guess I'll jump to when we were going to
day one.

It was the same kind of thoughts coming
back again.

It was like, okay, that was small before.

Like, what if...

It's gonna be so many people now that I
haven't met.

Like, during pre-production, I got to work
with all these department heads.

And you're saying like how working with
all the actors of my friends before.

Like, I would say everyone that I worked
with at that point by the time I went to

camera were my friends now.

And like...

Right, that's great.

It's cool.

The cast and crew and everyone.

It was a very friendly vibe across the
board.

It was a collaborative experience for you.

So you felt like what you were asking for.

People kind of step up and kind of helped
deliver the vision of what you were...

Yeah.

So we went to...

When I went up to Vancouver and we got
greenlit a few days into...

We had like a few days of prep.

And then we needed to get greenlit before
we could continue.

But when that was happening, I was meeting
all the heads of all the departments.

And we had kind of met before a little
bit.

They all know each other and they're all
friends.

And it's like part of a great group that
sort of...

Chris, the producer up in Vancouver,
where I worked closely with, and has sort

of really helped bring together over a
good period of time.

And so they're all very tightly in it.

And it's pretty great up there.

But I...

So you see, just to clarify, you found the
pre-production process of planning the

movie, and kind of laying it out and
talking to the crew, and talking to

producers and locations and sets and stuff
like that.

You found all that pretty smoothly the
actual process.

It was smoothly... I mean, it wasn't easy,
but it was smooth and easy.

No, it was easy.

We were getting...

Making films.

Yeah.

It was time consuming and like,
used all my brainpower each day,

but it was like, we got through it.

And I enjoyed it.

Did you find that at any time that the
sort of...

The bigger machination of filmmaking that
kind of...

Kind of like, when against how you used to
do things?

No.

No.

I felt like it had any identical scaling
of what I normally do.

That's great.

Like, the sets, when I got there,
I mean, I brought my computer with me.

I'm on the laptop.

And like, all the sets that we built,
because our production office was on the

sound stage, or like, right outside of it.

And so we would like...

We had these four big stages that we could
build on.

And we were working out, you know,
like our construction budget at the time

and everything.

And I...

In the script, we were iterating on the
script as we were going through prep and

stuff.

So some things were changing.

And so everything was changing a little
bit.

And it's too hard to describe the exact
order in which things changed.

Like, one change would retroactively
affect the change that change and whatnot.

But...

Right.

But, like, the sets are all...

Like, I made them all in Blender.

Like, I designed all the sets.

And it's pretty much one for one for what
we have in the movie.

Like, those all exist in the Blender
files.

And, you know, like I would cross
reference and talk with Jeremy Cox,

the EP I worked with, who's great.

And, you know, like, I would kind of like,
I was showing him how to use a bit of

Blender.

So we could, like, send files back and
forth if he wanted to tweak a few things

to, you know, on the day.

Really cool.

Build the sets to accommodate for shots
that we wanted.

Because we were shot listing in Blender as
well.

So basically, you were doing that,
like, previous.

Yeah.

It was previous on everything.

Yeah.

That's fantastic.

So you pretty much previous the whole
movie.

That's what I mean when I say, like, I
need, like, the variable control up front.

So I know I like knowing every single bit
of what we're going to do and let

everything be deliberate.

Your process and the way your mind works,
you know, where you need to be in control,

you need to kind of, like, be prepared
really helps with, as you can see,

the filmmaking process, right?

Like, there's nothing worse for a director
on a film set.

Oh, there's nothing worse for a film crew
in a production is a director that is not

prepared.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's horrible.

It's horrible.

If they don't know what they want,
they don't know how to achieve it.

That's really draining on a production.

And so someone like you, it's a breath of
fresh air to come in so prepared knowing

exactly the world, what they want,
what they want, the characters to be,

what they want, the shot, the scenes to
feel like, that goes a long way.

And I think, you know, I think that helps
with why the transition for you was kind

of pretty smooth going.

Yeah.

I would also, like, you know, sing the
praises of all the people we worked with,

because everyone in all of the departments
are, like, genuinely, like incredibly

nice, really productive and really focused
people.

That's amazing.

Obviously, it's like giving them infinite
credit on this.

Like, really the set, it's like,
I made them in blender.

But like, you know, even the construction
crew, like they were tirelessly going at

this thing.

It was like 30,000 square feet of the
background.

It's incredible.

The set looks amazing.

Yeah.

And, but again, you know, the crew really
wants to, you know, help you bring your

vision to life.

Yeah.

And so, like, we trusted you because,
you know, this movie is, you know,

it is an altered driven film.

And so, like, so it's kind of great that
everyone trusted you and wants to help you

bring all that, you know, to fruition.

Yeah.

And it looks amazing.

Very generous.

You guys see?

You know, hey, man.

No, seriously.

Yeah.

We, you know, we take a lead from someone
like yourself.

And I want to talk about what was it like,
you know, collaborating with, with Oz.

Oz good.

Oh, he's great.

Yeah, what was he like?

Yeah.

So, so it was, it was before we,
it was after the test shoot, it was before

we went to get greenlit.

Like, before we went up to Vancouver for
the long stay for the long haul.

Um, and I met Oz, because Chris works
closely with Oz and Oz is like,

yeah, basically at every step of the way.

Oz is a producer.

Just to explain.

He's a good person.

He's a good person.

He's a producer.

He's a director in his own right as well.

But he's a producer.

He on the film with us.

Yeah.

He was writing his next film while,
like we were in prep on this.

And so he'd be like just hovering around
the entire time, just hanging out and.

Like a big brother.

Yeah.

Some degree.

Yeah.

And he's, he's great.

Yeah.

And we would like, I know like when I went
to first got there is like, uh,

we would just like every Friday.

We would just go to a little theater and
like watch a movie that would like help

for the film.

And it's like, I remember that when we
first got there, we just like went rented

out a theater and just like watch 2001.

That's amazing.

It was like a lot of fun.

Um, but then we, we basically like,
he, he was very helpful.

I think in, because it was a certain level
of, of change and iteration that went on

with, you know, the, the script and
getting.

it right for the project that I've,
you know, I've put an online over the

years and people are so specific about
like, I think maybe that's not always

taken into account.

Actually, I know it's not taken into
account because it's been something that

just would have fight for a little bit
along the way.

And like a healthy matter, it's like
reasonable why it wouldn't be considered

because it's, it's a bit insane when I say
it out loud.

But like, because it's a very like,
it's not just a fan base thing.

It's not my fan base.

It's not a group of people.

It's kind of a prevalent mindset that has
come from, I think my generation who has

grown up with the internet, a lot of the
same, youtubers and a lot of the same

mentalities around media deconstruction.

And it's, there's been this notion that
when it comes to like internet driven

horror, especially horror is the main
target for this.

But anything that's mysterious or horror
driven and comes from the internet is

like, okay, so that means it's got to be
riddled with easter eggs and those easter

eggs are crucial to the plot.

And like the plot, the true story is lying
under the surface.

There's like a, there's a meta level to
this thing.

There's like, you can zoom in all these
things.

There's like, the expectation is there's a
lot of rich, really specific information.

And you know, I do that because I'm a part
of that group of people who think that and

I'm used to projects that give me that
level of like engagement and depth and

like growing up with that.

So, so when I'm making the background's
web series, I'm designing it as such and

when, you know, a object or like a light
switch or a pillar or something moves over

a few feet to the right.

It's not because we had to move it there
because of like some logistical thing or

like we had to rebuild the set and there
was a pillar there so we had to account

for like a shift.

It's like, no, it has to be because of the
narrative reason because the building

shifted in some way and that means
something that will get addressed later

on.

So people can kind of catch things like
that.

It's not a mistake.

I love it to death, but it's like I made
the deliberate decision to let audiences

know that those little things aren't
random and that they can expect everything

they catch.

It puts them on guard that there could be
a lot of things that they don't know are

important until later.

And sometimes you need multiple viewings
to a catch loop.

Yeah, like it's great.

The stuff I make on YouTube is built to
be... and I would say even the movie is

built to be paused and analyzed.

It's not meant to... it's inherently made
for that.

That is nuts.

And I think that, you know, trying to
bring that to this level involves asking

for a lot of things that seem unproductive
to people who aren't so mature.

Yeah, it's like, why is he doing that?

Yeah.

And we don't win every battle because it's
impossible because we don't have the

resources to paint out every tiny cable
and conduit that aren't exactly from 1990.

And the fire sprinkler models aren't
exactly the model that would have been

used in this type of piping in this year
and stuff.

And I know it's... this is what I mean.

It's like, come on, guys.

Give the film some slack.

But I know my audience...

Listen, you're an identity page.

You need to give them a little... the goof
section.

Something for them to write about,
right?

Yeah.

But anyway, I love him to death.

And I think that, you know, that
synchronizing, you know, everyone on that.

Like took a minute just to explain why we
had to do it.

But then we got... we did a lot.

We got a lot of mileage in that area.

So can I ask, so knowing you have to serve
as a lot of that kind of thinking and

partially because that's who you are as
well.

Did you, was that a fine balance between
that and a, you know, like a more

traditional storytelling script that you
guys had to write to get it out there?

Because, you know, this is not just little
vignettes of moments, right?

You know, like you have to tell a pretty
straightforward narrative to some degree,

right?

Like that has a start, you know,
at zero mark and has to add an hour and a

half or two hours into the movie,
right?

Was that a, was that a bit of a process
for you?

No.

I think that the YouTube series knew what
it was and it wasn't meant to be a

substitute for something structurally
similar to a feature film.

So you're saying as a feature,
you approach it different to how you

approach it differently.

The shorts have their arcs.

They're very vignette driven, like you
said, where you get a lot of these pieces

that, you know, for people online, it
makes sense to put these things together.

And then the story comes through repeated
viewing and stuff.

Or even one viewing will get it.

But it's like, not maybe not appreciated
to its fully degree, fullest degree.

Because it's sort of like a, like I guess
a more concept driven version of the

perspective into the story where it's not
quite, you know, the hope, I think I meant

to say this earlier.

But like, you know, with the desire to do,
like, that I want to do a film with

backgrounds, who's like, yes, and the goal
would have been to, like, sort of get the

foot in the door to, you know,
get audiences who are not up to speed on,

my version of the backgrounds and who are
not, you know, quite, I think the idea

would have been to make something that
worked for my audience that had direct

continuity with what I've made.

And people have never heard of it.

Yeah, no idea what it is.

And so it could be a first step that kind
of does the same thing that first short

did in terms of sort of, like,
opening the door to it.

And then the real, like, thing.

Exactly.

When I talk about having something in the,
like, the ending that I want to reverse

engineer from, or like, at that moment,
I really want to get to.

It's like, that's not, that's,
like, there's so much stuff.

I love every step along the way.

But like, this is all driving in a
direction where I would say that,

you know, the material that is planned and
is written out is like, it goes outside

the confines of the YouTube series.

And it goes outside the confines of the
film.

These things lay inside a broader,
I guess, like, tree of the narrative.

Right.

Which leads me to your cast.

Right.

This is the first set of, I would say,
professional actors that you've worked with.

And, and so what was it like working with,
she would tell and Renata.

I mean, it was...

And everyone else in the movie.

Yeah.

And everyone was great across the board.

And I was saying earlier about them being
my friends, like, do you mean that lovely,

lovely people?

And I think it was, like, in the case of,
like, when we're casting Clark,

and he's like, you know, I, I like his
brain.

I was very curious about, like,
you know, talking to him.

And I did.

He's great.

They're both great.

But I met with him first.

He was the first person that we were
really going out to.

And, I mean, he was the first and only
person we spoke to about the character.

I really got it in my head that,
like, after that conversation I had with

him and seeing the things he was curious
about with the project and with the

backgrounds in general.

And, you know, just the general,
you know, understanding of culturally what

the background is where it comes from and
what it needs to achieve to be a

meaningful addition to anything.

It's just, like, okay, so he gets it and
you've got a curiosity that's,

like, I found this with you're not a very
much so as well as, like, I like,

when I can tell they've got, like,
the people I'm working with have,

like, a personal curiosity that they're
trying to fulfill with this thing.

Like, some reason that they're,
something they're trying to find beyond

just, like, my agent set this up and like,
let's do a horror film.

It's like, not that at all.

It was very much like there was something
almost spiritual or profound about it.

Yeah, bringing the personal life and story
into the character.

Yeah, and that's just what you always
want.

That's all that's exactly what you want.

And I just found that I enjoyed the
conversations we were having.

I, I mean, I guess it's, like,
I give it, given the level of interiority

needed for, like, some of the stuff with,
with, with, with Renata and I knew they

would be fits for, like, the pieces we
needed them to fulfill.

And then obviously, once we actually went
to production, it was, it was mostly the

case of, you made, they made my job
supremely easy, right.

But, but it was, you know, a good case of
just, like, they would, you know,

hang out, like, behind the camera,
they wouldn't go off.

They would, like, you know, be around and
just, like, chat with people.

And it was, like, very good danger and
fun.

And, and I think it helped, like, again,
having those sets that were, like, there.

And there wasn't CG and you could,
like, walk through them and not see the

blue screens and not see, you could,
like, walk through several rooms before

you realize you're on a set.

That's really cool.

And so it's, like, I was trying to
provide, as, like, answers to any question

they could possibly have and have nowhere
the walls are and basically let things

still be fluid.

Well, like, very strictly knowing what can
and can't happen.

So that, you know, we stay on a very tight
course narratively.

So we arrive at the right spot.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

And they, you basically use the A
characters as, as a way in into the world.

Especially for people that are not
familiar with those with this well.

And, and they basically, you know,
that they play everyday people.

Right.

But get caught in this crazy, surreal,
back room, you know, liminal space horror.

So speak, right?

And, and they really kind of captured the
idea that, you know, they're these two

guys, you're two people that are,
that are like stumbling into this

supernatural world and not knowing what is
going on.

And they have to, and the more they dig
into it, the more they discover how this

particular space reflects themselves,
right?

That personality.

And I think that's really great,
you know, between yourself and the

screenwriter, what you guys shape and
create it in terms of a story to try and

bring in audiences that are not familiar
with this particular world.

Yeah.

I'm glad it came through in that way.

You definitely, like, that was a pretty
huge focus.

And I think it's kind of crucial to the
project.

So we don't have like a insane.

It's definitely more of a scenario where
the risk would be putting too much lore

and information into a single film rather
than trying to scale up.

Like a short that's not built for a future
into something larger.

So it was like, and so I think we trimmed
out like, or, or rather focused on the

right most foundational elements of what
made the idea work.

The background is a general idea and,
you know, found a way and it does not

involve or or necessitate a understanding
of like what where this YouTube series

goes.

But it's still related to it in some way.

One of the things I do want to talk to you
about is, you know, your, your shorts were

made for YouTube.

And so people generally, for the most
part, watched it on their iPhones on the

computer, on the iPad.

But now here you are making a theatrical
version of the feature film, right?

And so the feature film version for the
theatrical big screen experience.

How do you feel about that firstly?

And how do you think that would translate
from the tiny little screen to frickin'

iMacs?

We all make movies in computer these days.

It doesn't matter what the platform is,
right?

There's so much more thought tolish that
goes into this.

And we do like billion iterations of each
shot and like constantly refining and all

that.

But like, I have, I would say that this
film, you know, being able to,

and this is what I wanted from the
beginning with this whole process.

The thing that I hope to get out of this
was being able to, you know, I fulfilled

the niche of the found footage work
online.

Because that's what I could do by myself.

But what I wanted to be able to do is be
able to have stuff that got out of that

and was more human-centric and more
getting into the character work that could

be portrayed by actual human actors.

Who, you know, were there for that.

And, you know, this, in this film,
we finally had the resources to attack the

concept of the backgrounds through that
lens, which has never happened before.

And I think we get to see, like,
you know, a much, a far more personal and

intimate version of this story,
which sort of, like, I would say,

comes second in the conversation of,
like, people understand the background.

And it's, like, enough online at this
point that it's, like, and now this.

It's, like, this is the next, or this is
the slight advancement of the idea.

And we're seeing a slightly more,
let's say, a slightly more thoughtful and

elevated version of that that gets us to a
place where we actually get to have a

distinct relationship between individuals
and the environment, rather than letting

the relationship be largely between.

Yes, there's a character always behind the
camera, but more often than not,

audiences come away with the feeling of,
like, I'm kind of the person behind,

like, they kind of relate to the person
behind the camera in a way that is,

like, almost more, like, playing a game or
watching a game, play through or

something, which is not something I
deliberately catered to.

I just have observed that something that
happens.

And now they can see the face,
it's so simple, but, like, actually being

able to give the time to these characters
in a more direct way and let their context

in life in the world outside of their
relationship with the backgrounds,

giving that weight.

I think we'll go all the way.

of what you're saying, he now translates
to the big screen experience.

Oh, yeah, no, without a doubt.

I mean, it's like, it finally gives
emotional context.

Like, it allows everything that we build
with these human beings, like,

then is transposed when they interact with
the backgrounds and gives the backgrounds

of, in inherently, without the backgrounds
having to, it's the same location.

That stays pretty much unchanged.

That whole element, the complex.

But now it's much of a life.

Because of the human element, because of
how it's framed through the eyes of these

people, who you can relate to,
which you didn't have before.

And that's also just some cool set pieces.

Some big set pieces here that you can kind
of...

I guess you know how you were talking
about the fans or the people from the

world just sing little details there.

So, like, I guess, you know, when it's
blown up so huge, big, you know,

you can actually pick up little things
that you may not actually experience or

have noticed on your phone or on your
computer, right?

So...

My audience would notice that anything and
everything, but...

But, yes.

But it's easy to go through the stuff and
it's great, because you can't pause it on

your computer.

So, for a select time, you'll maybe have
to watch it a couple times to find

everything that's in there, because
there's a lot.

That's cool.

Well, Kate, this has been amazing,
man.

It's been amazing.

Thank you, dude.

Thank you for having a chat with me about
this.

I love the movie.

I think you guys all did a fantastic job.

The movie is great.

And I really think you captured the spirit
of what, you know, you did with the

shorts.

And here we have the feature film version.

And so, you must be excited to have people
up there see this movie when it finally

comes out.

I'm tremendously excited.

Like, thank you so much for just
supporting this for the time you have.

And it's like, we're talking...

like, you know, like how this happened.

But you've been around supporting this
since the beginning.

Like, literally the first month that any
of this was happening.

We came into contact and it's just been a
great partnership.

Okay.

This has been awesome.

Thank you, man.

Thank you, man.

This is lovely.