All language subtitles for [ISRAEL] 2016 Ben-Gurion_ Epilogue (בן-גוריון_ אפילוג)

Recording the Ben-Gurion interview
at Sde Boker, Israel, 24 frames...

In April 1968 David Ben-Gurion
agreed to give a filmed interview

to a British film crew that built an
elaborate film set near his desert home.

The interview with the leader who declared
the establishment of the Jewish State in 1948

and served as its prime minister
for 13 years,

took place when he was 82 years old,

five years after he suddenly
resigned from the government.

We happened to find the interview
in the Spielberg Archive in Jerusalem

which we came to in order to
restore a feature film

on the life of David Ben-Gurion
produced in the late 60's.

To our surprise, next to it we found
a pile of 35 mm film reels

including his unknown
interview with Ben-Gurion.

The interview is 6 hours long,
and we found out

that it was used for research for
the screenplay of the feature film.

Unfortunately, the soundtrack was lost
and the image remained silent.

The search for the lost soundtrack

led us to the Ben-Gurion
Archive in the Negev.

There, an 86-year-old British Jew

who served as soundman
for the interview,

had deposited the original sound reels
a few years ago

without knowing where the silent
video portion of the interview was.

Thus, in this film,
for the first time is revealed

a long, intimate, rare interview
with David Ben-Gurion.

The interviewer is a young
American Jew,

Dr. Clinton Bailey,

who came to Israel and, following
Ben-Gurion's example, settled in the desert.

The interview was conducted just four
months after his wife Paula's death.

Ben-Gurion lives alone
with his bodyguards

in his desert home.

Mr. Ben-Gurion?

Yes, please.

What do you do
with your tin^.e nowadays?

You see, I left the Government, in 1963,
for a single puripese.

To write the history...

of the remaking of the Jewish State.

Which I regard began not in May 1948,

but in 1870

How long will that take you?

Another six or eight years.

Do you have faith
that you will be able to do it?

It's possible, but I'm not certain.

Tomorrow there may be some accident,
and I am finished.

Almost every day
I hear there is an accident.

People are being killed.

But, in general,
you don't fear death?

Will it help me if I do fear?
Why should I fear?

It will not change anything.

How did your Zionism come to you
when you were a young man?

First of all, they came to my father.

And, it all began in... Plonsk (Poland)...

I didn't like that life at all.

What, were the 'things
you liked to do as a child?

I liked'to read'.

I read Uncle Tom's Cabin
when I was'about eight/years old.

I admired that there is
such a person like Tom,

and such a great man,
although he is a slave,

and I was astonished that there
are people who have slaves

and misuse them.

Because there are terrible stories
there in that book.

When you got your Zionism
at a young age

it came with a lot of dedication.
- I was very young.

When Herzl appeared in our little town
they said: Messiah's come.

And I believed it.

He was a very beautiful person

with a large, long, black beard.

What did you expect when you came to...

What shall we call it, Palestine or The Land?

Eretz Israel.

Well, it depends on what point of view.

From a Jewish point of view,
there were very few Jewish settlements.

Many came,
but, almost the same day

or a week later,
they left again.

Very few remained.

This is before the First World War.

There was complete anarchy
in the country.

One village was fighting
with the other.

My ideal was to work
on the land.

I saw every day,
thousands of Arab workers, are coming,

and going straight to work

A Jew must stand near the synagogue.

The farmer came and looked at his...

Muscles.

And he choose one worker.

And it took me ten days
until I got the first day of work.

But, then I got malaria.
At night it was terrible.

I couldn't work,

I couldn't eat.

I wrote eve'ry week,
two, three letters to my father,

describing the:country.

so he thought I am happy.

But there were many people
from my town,

and they were going
and coming back

and they told my father how am I living.

When he heard that
he sent me a letter:

"Come back!"

So I understood that he learned...

They have told him...

I sent him a letter, "Aba...",
Aba means Father...

"You know I will not leave
this country."

So it strikes me
that in those early years of yours

you were a rebel,

you were not ready to accept
the normal life,

the conformist life,
you were against it...

What is normal life?

The normal life was abnormal life...

We wanted to create a new life.

Not the life which exists.

I believed that we had a right
to this country.

Not taking away from others,
but recreating it.

So when did I reach the ideal
to create everything from the beginning?

Only fourteen years ago.

I once came back from Eilat
(southern border of Israel).

And suddenly I see there are
some young people, a few huts,

so I left my car and I went down,
I said: "What are you doing here"?

They told me, "We were fighting
the War of Independence in this place."

Here I saw that that dream
can become a fact.

And I decided,
although I was then prime minister

and minister of defense,

I decided to join them,
to start building up,

in the desert, where there is no soil,
no water, no grass, no rain...

So you mean to tell me,
that only fourteen years ago...

Beginning...
-That's it! -Your dream..

That's it! That's it!

Create everything from the beginning,
because until then it was impossible.

Mr. Chairman, Knesset members, it is my duty
to inform you on behalf of the government

that unfortunately
Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion

announced yesterday
at the government meeting

that he has decided to resign
as prime minister and defense minister.

Solitude... -Yes?

Has... played a great role in your life.
-Yes.

You've always worked among men,
you've been a leader of people,

yet, by your own choice,

you've sometimes desired and have gotten
solitude, whether it be personal or political.

Has solitude been important to you?
Is this part of a philosophy of life?

It is not correct
that you say "solitude.

For instance,
when I decided to come here,

to live here, it is not for solitude.

But you don't mind being alone.

No, when I have to do some work
I was born to be alone.

Or to read.
I can't read with others.

But no, not to be alone...
or solitude... no.

But I will tell you what is
my view on these things.

I believe that every human being
can be good and can be bad.

It depends a great deal
where he finds himself,

what people are serving
as their example.

This is why, for instance,
I am against having big cities.

The big ©itfes are not
good for humanity.

It's better to live in a small place
where each knows the other man.

They can be more friendly.

We don't ne'ed-a city more than
10 or 15 thousand people.

Why big cities?

All Jews are going to Tel Aviv.

They should... You can have 100 cities.
Even more, 500... in the Negev.

The most important thing
which I learned,

I learned by living here.
Living this life.

I want to live in a place
when I know

- that my friends, and myself,
we did it. Everything.

It's our creation.

You see, the trees which I see,
I know we have planted it.

The trees then speak to me
in another language.

I know it can be created by man.

Rain fell in Sde Bokerthis morning,
reason enough for celebration

in a settlement located in
Israel's most arid region.

The celebration of the rain
coincides with another celebration,

the dedication ceremony
of the radio-telephone network.

Mr. David Ben-Gurion commented on
the general importance of the achievement.

I want to thank you

for bringing us the dubious blessing
of the radio-telephone.

I say "dubious" because
one of my pleasures has been

not knowing the curse of the telephone

which always interrupts me
when I'm reading a book,

but I guess there's no avoiding it.

Since now we've become Northerners;
the distance from here to Eilat

is greater than the distance,
when I came to Eretz Israel,

from the southernmost point
in Eretz Israel to the most northern.

The time has come to put
the new device to the test.

Hello.
Oh, hello, Mr. President!

I'm sending you greetings from
the Negev settlements

over the radio-telephone
that we're dedicating now.

In honor of this important event
the rain started falling

but our guests are happy
and we send our regards.

The greatest teaching,
which in my view is the greatest teaching,

is words - which are not connected
with deeds

"are absolutely nothing".

In our kibbutz I told them
my name is David. Not Ben-Gurion.

So every morning I came to see
what David has to do,

and I went to do the work.

This is what our prophets said,

to serve as an example to other people.

One of the greatest prophets
in my view is Jeremiah.

I have the feeling that what
he was saying is true.

And when he said:
"God said to me"...

he heard it in his heart,
he didn't talk with God,

nobody can talk with God.

But this was his deep feeling.

And he was a great statesman.

He understood politics
more than the kings.

But he was unpopular.

A statesman who is not considering
the things which ought to be done,

whether it is popular or not,

then he is a dangerous man.
If he looks to be only popular.

But you've had many decisions to make
which were unpopular.

At the time you decided to accept
German reparations, for example.

That was very unpopular.

Of course it was unpopular.

First of all, I thought that the attitude
to all Germans as to Nazis is wrong.

It's unjust.
That's all.

I couldn't say that Adenauer is a Nazi,
he was not a Nazi.

Violent demonstrations
throughout Israel today.

Adenauer raus!

Blood money! Guilt money!
screamed the crowd

as stones were thrown at
the parliament building.

At the center of the storm
are the negotiations

between Israel and Western Germany

on reparations to compensate the survivors
of Hitler's concentration camps.

The survivors insist:
Genocide has no price.

Adenauer's Germany

is not Hitler's Germany.

The Germany of our time will never again
be what it was before WWII.

You Germans knew.

Now what we call reparations

you call wiedergutmachen.

When I hear that German word..

do you know what it means
in Hebrew?

Rectifying the injustice!

Not only did they kill six million
men, women and children,

they stole our money, tens
if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

It was a very emotional problem.

People had lost relatives,
they'd lost family.

Yes, I know...

Therefore with people,
who were living in Auschwitz,

I don't discuss this question.

I know I can not explain them.

I don't expect them
to understand it

so with them I don't discuss it.

I discuss it with only with people
who didn't suffer themselves.

But by reason. It is not reasonable,

it is unjust, it is not Jewish.

Because both Jeremiah said,
and the same thing said Ezekiel.

"In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten sour grapes,

"and the children's teeth
are set on edge..."

"every man who eats the sour grapes,
his teeth shall be set on edge".

Those who are criminals, they
will suffer, but not their children.

And not the fathers
for their children, and this is right.

Although in history it is not so.

America is suffering now
from the crimes of their forefathers.

They brought slaves from Africa
and they are paying now for it.

Mr. Ben-Gurion..

But this is immoral.
History is not moral.

This morning at 9:30

David Ben-Gurion
and Chancellor Adenauer met

in the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
where they are both staying.

My meeting with Prime Minister,
David Ben-Gurion, affected me a lot,

For a long time I've been
an admirer of his strength

and his statesmanlike
accomplishments.

I wish the Chancellor every success
in his efforts

to guide Germany
in its path of democracy

and international cooperation.

Thank you very much.

Adenauer and the Israeli
head of government, Ben-Gurion,

signed a secret document concerning
West German deliveries of arms to Israel.

So far more than 5,000 Israeli soldiers

and officers have been trained
by the Bundeswehr (German army)

on the basis of West German-Israeli
secret treaties.

Currently 52 West German scientists
and over 400 arms experts

are working in Israeli
research institutes

which deal with the military
application of nuclear energy.

The nuclear plant in the Negev Desert is
available to them for practical experiments.

Bonn has spent over 81 million marks
for these purposes so far.

Jews, don't forget
and don't forgive the Nazis!

Not only did they kill six million
men, women and children,

Do you think that before the Nazi era

we could have saved more Jews?

You can not save people
who don't know what is their fate.

Those who accuse the Jews that didn't
defend themselves, I think it's wrong.

They were powerless.

Well, a million children were killed,
what could the children do?

More than a million mothers were killed,
what could they do?

They were undressed,
called to stay here,

and then they were killed.

I read whatever was written about that,

I doubt whether they could have
prevented it.

The others could have prevented it,

allowing them to come to Israel.

This yes. But they didn't allow them.

Could Churchill have prevented it?

I doubt it. You see, I can't accuse him.

Churchill had one task, to defeat Hitler.

Churchill was a good friend of Zionism.

But he was right in thinking that
the main task now is to defeat Hitler.

But they could have saved many Jews.

They were asked to bomb Auschwitz,

Treblinka, they could do it.
They didn't do it.

What were yo,mr reactions
when you saw the Jews in Europe

after World War II?

What were you doing in Germany
at that time?

When the war was over,
I decided to go to see the Jews in Germany,

the DP's (displaced persons).

Were you moved when you saw these...

Did you actually see the camps themselves?

Oh, I was in all camps.

We, the last remnant of European Jewry,

we accuse Europe.

We are stateless, homeless.

It was the Jewish people
who made Palestine,

that was Palestine
who made the Jewish people.

There is an obligation

to encourage the administration
of Palestine

asking for freedom of Jewish immigration

which will result in a free and democratic
Jewish commonwealth in Palestine.

Many Jews think of Israel as
a place of refuge for unfortunate Jews.

Why should the Jews come back to Zion?

Well, our mission..

We had a great Jew.

It's about 3,300 years ago.

He was the greatest Jew we ever had.

His name was Moshe.

He said:

"You are the smallest of the nations".

"and you must be an Am Segula".

"Am Segula" could be translated
as "a nation of higher virtues"?

This is one of the meanings.

What would be our virtues, then?

The virtues we should aspire to?

Well, the virtues which we were
asked by our prophets,

was to be just, truthful,

helping all those who need help,

and love other men like yourself.

These are the virtues.

Do you think Israel is carrying out
that mission?

Not yet.

When you were head of the movement

and were prime minister of this coumtry,

did you also tell the people,
or try to,

tell the people to be an Am Segulla?

As soon as the war (1948 War) was over,

as long as the war was going on,

I thought security is our main business.

When the war was over,
this was the beginning of January 1949,

I called together our best men
which we have here...

Buber... Hugo Bergmann...
and others.

And I said to the;m: While until now,

we had to fight, which is against
our belief and our faith,

but destiny imposed it on us.

And unless we will keep and increase
spiritual superiority,

I doubt whether we will be able to achieve
what we ought to achieve.

And therefore we need you.

This is a very big day.

It's Mr. Ben-Gurion's Birthday.

The whole family,
his children and grandchildren,

have come together
with many lifelong friends.

Amongst them is the president
of the State of Israel, Mr. Yitzhak Ben-Zvi

who has come to offer his congratulations
to his long time colleague and associate.

A president's suit must be cleaned,

and Mrs. Ben-Gurion takes care of that.

We grew up with
and without a father.

When I was a child, my father
was the secretary of the Labor Federation

and it didn't pay very much.

When we sat down to eat
and I said: "Come eat with us, Mother,"

she'd say: "No, I'll eat with Father
when he gets home."

When he came home and said:
"Come join me, Paula,"

she'd say: "No, I ate
with the children."

She deprived herself
because there wasn't enough food.

Father never knew of this.

He was in a different world.

It was hard for our mother.

Moving from the city to
a wilderness with no company,

young people... It didn't bother Father,

all he needed was paper
and a pencil and a book.

Mr. Ben-Gurion,
I like the idea of talking to you

in this kibbutz where you've retired.

We spoke about your resignation,
in order to come down here,

suppose was for you
the end of politics.

The end of politics...

was very much against it.

You were against the resignation...

The resignation of the politics.

You'd like him to go on in politics?

Yes, because he could
not exist without politics...

I can exist without politics.

No, you can't... It's born in you.

Mrs. Ben-Gurion, did you share
your husband's Zionist enthusiasms?

Yes...
We obviously have some difficulties.

I also have my opinion.
But I thought that is the right thing.

It must have been a difficult time
to bring up children with all this going on.

How did you make out?

I had no alternative,
I had to make it out.

It's a good thing they^came out something,
when I took care of them.

Well, this was really her task,
because I was traveling...

Of course,
but you managed to do that?

Of course, with nci piaster
(monetary unit) in the house...

Your life must have undergone
a tremendous change when...

you were describing

how looking after the children
with no piasters,

and then you find yourself
the wife of the prime minister...

I knew he was a leader,
what's the difference,

I knew he is a leader...

So, it really didn't make
much difference? -No.

And when they addressed me
as the prime minister's wife

I told them,
I'm not the prime minister's wife,

I'm the wife of Ben-Gurion.

There is a country, Israel,
their nation...

Yes.

How is that going to affect,

the character of Jews
as we've known them?

I'm a Jew, not only an Israeli,
I'm an Israeli Jew, but I'm a Jew.

And what about the Zionist?

Well, Zionists, I've declared

that I'm not a Zionist
more than 10 or 12 years ago.

What does that mean when you say
you are not a Zionist?

See, when I became a Zionist
I thought "I'll be a Zionist"

means to return to Zion, that's it.
Not to live in Plonsk...

Then you think they should all come here?

Yes. When there wasn't a state

nobody is coming,
so what is the meaning of Zionism?

But they are entitled
to call themselves Zionists,

so I'm not a Zionist.

I married a Zionist
and he is not a Zionist!?

Then I saw the name "socialism
has no meaning...

and I asked myself a second question,

who calls himself a socialist?

Hitler, on one side,
National Socialist, and Stalin.

If Stalin is a socialist,

I have nothing to do
with that kind of socialism...

Mr. Ben-Gurion,
you are not a Zionist,

you are not a Socialist,
what are you?

I'm a Jew
who wants to live in a world

where there is peace among all nations

and where there is no exploitation

but mutual help among human beings.

Paula Ben-Gurion, died from
sudden internal bleeding.

Ben-Gurion's friends arrived in Sde Boker
to share the grief of the family.

Many shared the grief of her death.

Your life must have changed considerably
since your wife passed away.

Yet you go on working,
you're not a crushed man.

A crushed man?
No. Why should I be crushed?

Many people are crushed by loss.

By?
-By loss.

By loss...
Yes, well of course.

I don't feel now
what I felt even four months ago,

but I can't help it.

I didn't expect that,
I was certain that I will die before her.

But fate decided otherwise.

This cannot be changed.

I read many of the letters
that you wrote to Paula

in the early years of your marriage,

they reveal a great love,
a great tenderness.

You see...
she was a remarkable woman.

She was not a Zionist,
she had very little Jewish feeling,

she was an American,
she was an anarchist.

At that time, all the progressive youth
were anarchists.

And her hero was
an anarchist woman, Goldman.

This was the greatest man
she knew.

She had no interest in Israel,

she didn't know what for,

America is better,
why do we need the land of Israel?

But when we decided
to marry each other

told her that you will
have to go to Israel,

and I told her what Israel is,
then.

And she agreed.

And so she really later came
in November 1919

she came to Israel with the child.

Then, suddenly, 50 years ago,
I told her: I'm going to the desert.

She thought I am mad

that I am resigning the government
and going to live in the desert,

but she did. she followed me.

Not many women would do that.

So she was very much devoted,
and this is a great thing.

And now I am alone
but I can't help it.

I'm now a half-man
but I must do what I can.

In the channel of Zin Creek
at twilight

the graduation ceremony took place
for the first cohort of the high school

near Sde Boker Academy.

Among the large crowd
sitting on the soft sand

the energetic, active
initiator stood out.

His weathered face
and white quiff

blended into the scenery.

The current sings in the pipes

The pipes are the arteries of the Negev

This is the way of the song

From the valve to the soil

Turn, turn, sprinkler, hey...

When he was asked to speak

he said: "I have nothing to say.
Bless you."

I tried to get the man to speak.

I asked if he'd agree
to discuss matters besides the Negev

but he refused.

He skipped over the rocks
and sand, got into his car

and returned to his green cabin
in Sde Boker.

I'd like to ask you
a question about yourself.

You can work almost
under any circumstances...

I once spoke to Feldenkrais

and he was disparaging willpower.

I said: Ben-Gurion has willpower,
and he said: No.

And his definition was this:

Willpower is something you need to do
what you don't want to do.

Ben-Gurion doesn't work on willpower,

he likes what he does.

Would you agree with that?

That's true that I like what I do.
That's true.

But, you still need
willpower to do it...

Perhaps he is fight...

What type of exercise
did you do with Feldenkrais?

Oh, it is very complicated.

He knows his work.

Before the Sinai Campaign
I again was with lumbago.

He knows th'fe entire- anatomy of man

like no doctor
which I met in my life.

And he healed me, and no more lumbago.

When he started going out on walks

people would phone him,
wanting to talk to him.

He said: I don't have the time,

but if you want to come walk with me,

we have an hour and we can talk.

He couldn't fall asleep at night.

And he'd read not just one
entire book,

he'd read several at the same time.

Why did I make him stand on his head?
The whole world was against it.

But I said to Ben-Gurion:

"Look, you have a small body,

"you've never been proud
of your body

"which is why you neglected it and as
a youth you got into intellectual matters

"without every having had
a youthful stage

"like everyone else.
You're lacking that now,

"which is why I want you
to do something

"which you see as a circus trick.

"What can't you do at all?"

He said: "Stand on my head."

So I said: "Stand on your head

"and you'll see you do it better
than many people younger than you."

Once he managed
to stand on his head

he was the happiest man
in the world.

He competed with Yehudi Menuhin
in Tiberias.

Yehudi Menuhin stood on his head.

Ben-Gurion said he could
stand on his head longer...

Mr. Ben-Gurion?

Yes, please. -Yes.

I'd like to ask you a question

about your connection to Jewish history.

Jewish history?
-And, it's this:

The prophets, in the Bible,

had a vision for the future.

and they connected that vision
with the faith in .God,

the presence of God is in the prophets.

Yes.

They needed strength
and they turned to God.

Do you also turn to God
when you need strength?

Are you sure that they turned to God?

What do you mean by saying
turning to God?

Does God live in some place
and you' turn to him?

They could pray to God...
-God is everywhere.

What do you think-they turned to?

They turned... turning to God
is thinking deeply'about something.

They turn to God..?

They take his address and go there?

Thinking deeply about something?
-Yes.

Meditating?
-Meditating. Of course.

This is turning to God.

Well, the Rambam ^Maimonides) said:
"God. doesn't talk".

He's not a humaip tojeing.

Do you think there is a lot of room
in Judaism for meditation?

Is meditation a theme in Judais^?’

Well, I'm afraid now you use
the word meditation in the Buddhistic sense.

In the Buddhistic sense?
-You, I think.

Meditation is not that meaning
which you now apply to it.

In Buddhism... There is a context
for meditation in Buddhism?

Yes.

Did you find that in Buddhism,
when you were interested in Buddhism?

No. I saw there people were doing it...
meditating.

Do you find that meditation
is helpful?

No... Well, there is meditation
and there is thinking.

Thinking I think is helpful.

Yes?
-Yes.

Are there other things in Buddhism'
that interest you?

Oh, there are manuy.
He was a very great man.

See, U Nu said, we had a talk,
he was sitting in Hong Kong,

I was in Jerusalem

and the American television man
was in New York.

Good evening,

tonight's Small World unites
two statesman and scholars

who are also old friends.

Shalom, Mr. Ben-Gurion.

Shalom, Mr. U Nu.

U Nu, in a recent speech you said
that part of the world's troubles and ills

came from the repeated
use of the word "I."

According to Buddhism

this is the, the very source
of all the troubles.

So if we want to get rid
of all these troubles,

first of all, we must get rid
of this "I."

"I consciousness."

What do you think we should do in order
to get rid of this "I consciousness? "

Meditate. Meditation is the only way
by which we can get rid of that "I."

That's why, when I visited Israel
a few years ago,

I had invited the prime minister
to come over to Rangoon,

and have a little bit of meditation.

He had accepted it.

But meditation, my dear U Nu,
is not enough.

Meditation is merely a personal thing.

Every one of us must do something
for the world, for humanity.

The "I" is not so bad in itself,

the question is whether it's a selfish I

or a human I.

Buddha also believed
in the non-self, Anatta.

His teaching was a teaching
of love, human love.

He said: Hatred doesn't cease
through hatred,

only by love.

This is in Dhammapada, they said.

And this was said
500 years before Christ.

And this also what you find in the Torah.

Very deep, old human morality.

"You shall love your fellow man
as yourself."

"You shall love thy fellow man
like yourself."

So the German teachers of the Bible,
they interpret it, it means only Jews.

But they forgot that in the same chapter,
Chapter 19 Leviticus,

it said a little later:

"If a stranger
will live among you,

"he should be to you like a citizen
and you should love him like yourself

"because you were strangers in Egypt."

So it doesn't mean only Jews.

Mr. Ben-Gurion, do you think Israel
is going to have to fight the Arabs again?

And if so, can we win?
Not... What I would say,

they maybe, they have to fight again.

Even several times, but I wouldn't
say that they must fight again.

For instance, take the prophecy:

"Nation will no longer fight against
nation, nor learn war any more."

They shouldn't learn war any more.

They shouldn't spend their money
and their time

and their people, their young men,

preparing for war.

But if a country has to defend itself
as in the War of Independence?

I think this is the unique case
in the history of the world,

certainly in our time,

that a new state, in the same day
when it was proclaimed,

when it became a state,
it was attacked by all their neighbors.

I don't know of any other case.

Of course this compelled us
to give our best youth,

and our best brains,

for security.

Ten years ago today

Mr. Ben-Gurion read
the Israeli Declaration of Independence

at the historic assembly.

Now PM Mr. David Ben-Gurion
will speak.

The event that took place
in this hall ten years ago

is engraved on the pages
of both Jewish and world history.

I, your humble servant,
was one of the few

who didn't take part
in the celebration.

My heart was full of
grave anxiety.

And I would not express
this personal experience

if I didn't think it would have
important consequences.

Now the first lady of Israel theater,

Hanna Robina, approaches the microphony.

She will read
the declaration of independence

which was read
by Mr. Ben Gurion ten years ago.

"The Land of Israel was the birthplace
of the Jewish people.

"Here their spiritual, religious
and political identity was shaped.

"Accordingly, we,

"the members of the People's Council

"are here assembled on the day of
the termination of the British mandate

"over the Land of Israel. "

But you knew that when you
declared a state

the community here was in danger.

There were people,
United States for example,

which counseled a delay
of the declaration of independence,

yet you went ahead with it.

Were you confident at the time
that Israel could make a stand?

Or did you have doubts?

I knew that we can win.

I couldn't say to myself
"I'm certain that we will"

because it didn't depend
only on me.

It depended, will we be able
to bring over the arms.

In other words, if you had the arms
you could depend on the people.

Yes on the people, yes. I knew
the people, we can depend on them.

They had the right qualities?

Yes. This I knew all the time.

What were these qualities?

These qualities were love for peace

but capability of fighting
when necessary.

The first organization that has
shown that was HaShomer ('The Guard').

This was under the Turks,
before the Mandate.

But the new thing which we'd done
was to guard ourselves.

Meaning self-defense.

To defend the Jewish villages
when necessary,

but to make an effort to have
good relations with the Arabs.

And this was the spirit
of the Jewish army,

to have a force which will
be able to defend,

but also can assure peace
and good relations.

In that respect we didn't succeed.

HaShomer succeeded more in that
than we.

11 know the type of people/
that laid the foundations

for the State of Israel since 1870.

I made a study
and I knew them personally

since I came to this country
nearly 62 years ago.

They were not that type.
They didn't come for war

and for conquest.

They had that vision and that
pioneering spirit and that devotion.

But when there was a danger to their
existence, they must defend themselves.

Do you think there's any danger
that if the military

continues to have such a prominent
role to play in the affairs of state...

Not our army, no.
Not our army.

The army here was not merely
a military unit.

It is the great educational institution
we have in the country;

They brought together
different ethnic groups,

European communities, Asian
communities, African communities.

And when I saw that there are many
who cannot read and write, in the army.

When he came to this country
he was already 15

so you cannot compel him
to go to school.

But he must go to the army.

So he came to the army
and he cannot read and write.

I gave an order that for 6 months

they should be free
from military service and only learn.

And he got it. So he feels
he is rising, he feels great.

So this is the best school for uniting the
people and giving them trust in their leaders.

In Eilat, Israel's southernmost port
and its gateway to the Red Sea,

he reviews a parade
of young soldiers.

How do you feel about
your work as minister of defense

as you look back on it today?

I think it was not bad.

And when a person has to make
big decisions involving countries, lives,

there must always be the fear
of making mistakes.

How do you get over the fear?

You can never know
if you are not making a mistake.

Because if you know you are making
a mistake, you don't make it.

You do something because
you think it's right.

And I never assumed that, no,
I can't make a mistake.

But from what I could understand,
I thought it ought to be done.

But there were several things,
which the government didn't accept,

and the majority is ruling.

But most occasions they accepted it.

You know that most of the countries
that have been established since WWII

have failed at democracy.

Can Israel's democracy survive?

I hope it will.

And sometimes democracy can make mistakes,

but it's better to make a mistake
in democracy, than make right wing.

When you are here,
do you miss...

some of the people that you've been
associated with for many years

who are now politically
alienated from you?

Well, who?

Dayan, Golda Meir...
-For?

Do you miss them?
People that you were accustomed to see...

I don't miss them, I am sorry
that they are doing not the right thing.

They are very nice men,
like them.

And I am sorry they are doing certain
things which they shouldn't have done.

But all right,
perhaps everybody...

I'm afraid I also did certain things
which I shouldn't have done.

I know one speech which I
have made in the Parliament,

now I wouldn't make it.

You wouldn't make it?
-No.

Immediately after the war...
the Sinai Campaign was over.

I was so..

In seven days they took
the whole Sinai.

I thought it's impossible.

The area of Sinai is at least
5 times as big as the whole of Israel.

So I got a little drunk
with that victory

and I said a little too much

which I wouldn't say now.

went too far.

Some of the government thought

that I want to have Sinai
as a part of Israel.

And I was asked this question:

Will you annex Sinai if you catch it?

I said: "No. Our intention
is to go to Sinai,

"is to ensure freedom
of navigation in Eilat".

Let us not forget what happened
this last year,

the Six-Day War.

Good evening. This, the third day
of the Middle East war,

has shown convincing proof
of Israel's military superiority.

" Israeli armored columns continue
their sweep to the (southwest

beyond the Gaza Strip
and to the south in Sinai.

How did it happen?
And, more important, what happens now?

Mr. Ben-Gurion,
is this 1956 all over again?

No, this is 1967

And is it better than 56'?

Well, people must make progress.

You think you are making
real progress today?

I hope so.

Where would you like to stop?

Are you going to occupy
the whole of Jerusalem?

No, we are satisfied
with our present boundaries.

Do you wish to increase
the land area of Israel?

If they will try against our part
of Jerusalem, we will show them.

Do you wish to increase
the land size of Israel?

No. We want to have peace
on the basis of status quo.

We've captured the Temple Mount, over.

Roger. Well done.

This is the Western Wall, and I'm touching
the stones of the Western Wall.

I was in London
when the war broke out in '67,

and near to after the war,
while I was in the hotel,

a telephone rings saying, Tel Aviv calling,
and there was Mr. Ben-Gurion.

And he urged me to some at once,

and I said 1 want to come,

this is my ceuntry
and I want to come, but...

I will choose the time
for coming.

I jusst can't come now.

He did.

And I saw him in England.

I came out with suggestions
as far as Palestine was concerned,

I said: We think that
the Arab case of Palestine

sheul'S be presentee!
by the Palestinians 'themselves.

But we don't have the means;
we don't have the possibility.

Does that mean that I am
a beggar, or anything... no.

Of course, I have known Mr. Ben-Gurion
for more than forty years.

I used to see him almost daily.

And to like, very much, Mr. Ben-Gurion,
because of his frankness.

His frankness was
sometimes frightening

when he would express his views

about the destiny
and the future of the Arabs.

We disagreed,

but we always wanted
to try and find a common ground.

But I'm afraid
that he's out of politics,

and you are now in the flush
of your war victory

and we are under-the spirit
of being defeated

and being downtrodden
and all the rest of it.

And so both of us are
in abnormal conditions.

I consider you just as much abnormal
as we are.

Because you are not considering
the future,

you are only considering the present.

And we are not'considering
the distant future,

we are considering
our present suffering.

gut I do believe that this’country

has the making of a country of pease.

Mr. Ben-Gurion,

since you've been in this country,
practically, it's been in a state of war.

Almost half a century...

I'm more than half a century here.

I was reborn here.
-You were reborn...

I consider my birth
when I came to this country.

In 1956, in the Sinai Campaign,
Israel withdrew under some world pressure.

Do you think there is any hope
for a permanent peace here?

Or is this a kind of state that's
going to go on for another century?

I can give you my personal view,

you know I don't belong to any party.

I don't speak on behalf of anybody here.

If I would have a choice

between peace and all the territories
which we conquered last year,

I would prefer peace.

Because I know
that within the boundaries

which we have got
before the Six-Day War,

we could settle as many Jews
as are likely to come

within the next twenty or forty years.

The West Bank of the Jordan, occupied
by Israel during the Six-Day War,

and the scene of some of the most
bitter guerrilla fighting ever since.

And now the center of
a new political storm

with the American proposal
that any peace settlement with Jordan

must in,elude the handing back
of this territory.

Mr. Rogers first meeting in Israel
was with Mr. David Ben-Gurion.

Mr. Ben-Gurion, did you
present to Mr. Rogers

your well-known views about the future
of the Israeli-occupied territories?

Yes, but I told him
it's only my opinion.

Retreat - danger!
Retreat - danger!

Mr. Ben-Gurion, Israel is once again
faced with an historical challenge,

that is the negotiation
of a peace treaty

recognizing secure boundaries.

Do you think
that the government's policy

is one that can achieve peace
in the Middle East?

You mean the Israeli government?
-Yes.

They made only one mistake
in my view,

when Rogers made his plan...
-The Secretary of State.

They didn't accepted it entirely.

They did not accept it.
-No, only under conditions.

Egypt accepted it.

I myself think it's a mistake.

I knew that we are entitled
to the whole of Israel.

This was our country,
it was never a Palestinian people,

there was never a Palestinian state,

and we never gave up our hope
to come back to our country,

and it's our country.

But, if I have to choose
the entire country or peace,

I think peace is more important.

My own view is
that if you can have peace

we should give up
all the territories which we conquered,

with two exceptions:
Jerusalem and Golan Heights.

Withdrawal, then?

Everything.

So withdrawal today
is one of the most sensitive

and politically controversial words.

Do you think
that Mrs. Meir (Prime Minister)

has to hold an election

to ask the people for a mandate
on withdrawal?

I don't know,

I only once talked with her,

we met for some reasons.

What is your question?
Whether she will...

Whether she should.
If you were prime minister

would you hold an election
on the issue of withdrawal

and put the question
before the people?

If I would be prime minister
I would say this is my view,

if you don't accept it,

you are entitled not to accept it,
but then I must leave.

I will resign.

Happy birthday to you...

This meeting

is dedicated to the 85th birthday
of a unique, special man,

none other than David Ben-Gurion.

Mr. President,
Mr. Prime Minister,

honored Knesset members,

current and future,

since I mainly concern myself,
since I retired from government,

with the future,

I won't argue about things
I have a lot to argue about,

instead I'll speak about the future.

Our historic yearning
has been for a new society

built on liberty, equality,
tolerance,

mutual aid and love of man,

a society without exploitation,
discrimination, slavery or tyranny.

We cannot boast that the nation in Israel
is already an exemplary nation.

Our status in the world

will not be determined
our supposed material wealth,

nor by our military might,

but by the moral light
of our undertakings.

And although
there are some shadows,

among them heavy shadows
in ouir lives now,

"We have grounds to believe

that we can be.an exemplary nation!

Let us celebrate

Let us celebrate and rejoice

Let US celebrete

"Let us celebrate and rejoice

"Let us sing, let us sing

"Let us sing..."

Now, what kind of music
do you listen to?

Do you listen to Classical music
most of the time?

Sometimes, not very often.
-Not very much.

Heaven help the child
who never had a home

Heaven help the man
who gave that child a gun

Heaven help the people
with their backs against the wall

Heaven help us all

Heaven help us, Lord,

Hear our call

When we call...

When you think of your own contribution

to the fulfillment
of the reestablishment of the state,

what are the main areas
of your contribution?

If I would be alone,
I would be able to do nothing.

Pardon me?
-I alone wouldn't be able to do anything.

It's such a matter

which doesn't depend
on a single person.

This is the mistake in general...
There are many historians, which say:

Oh, this was done
by that leader and by that leader...

I don't believe it.

There are things which been
done by a single man,

for instance,
the theory of relativity.

This was created by Einstein.

Although when I spoke with Einstein,
I read in his biography

that Einstein was the only scientist
which from pure thinking

came to certain new ideas
about science.

I asked him: Is it true?

He said: It's partly true.

I myself didn't make
all those experiments.

But I knew the experiments
which others made,

and I drew from them
certain conclusions.

But without those experiments
I wouldn't be able to reach my theory.

But in history, I don't believe that
a single person can change things.

Unless it is done by the people
or by a part of the people,

it can't be done.

And if we wouldn't have

the pioneers of the first generation,

we wouldn't be able to do that.

But you can't deny that-you had a role?

Of course, I was appointed
prime minister,

And you've guided Israel well?

I didn't guide Israel,

I guided myself.

I never guided Israel.

Do you fear for your country?

Oh, I always feared.
I always. Not only now.

That the state does not yet exist.

It's a beginning only.

Thank you very much,
Mr. Ben-Gurion.

So we're finished?

No, not yet, another ten minutes.

We came at twenty to eight
and now it's thirty to ten,

so it's not yet two hours.

All right, all right,
I am ready.