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1
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"Come round by my side
and I'll sing you a song
2
00:00:32,141 --> 00:00:37,306
"I'll sing it so softly it'll do no one wrong
3
00:00:38,514 --> 00:00:44,180
"On Birmingham Sunday
the blood ran like wine
4
00:00:45,054 --> 00:00:50,390
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
5
00:00:55,865 --> 00:01:01,861
"That cold autumn morning
no eyes saw the sun
6
00:01:02,171 --> 00:01:07,973
"And Addie Mae Collins
her number was one
7
00:01:08,544 --> 00:01:14,540
"In an old Baptist church
there was no need to run
8
00:01:14,951 --> 00:01:20,787
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
9
00:01:24,293 --> 00:01:30,095
"The clouds they were dark
and the autumn wind blew
10
00:01:30,433 --> 00:01:36,303
"And Denise McNair
brought the number to two
11
00:01:36,739 --> 00:01:42,735
"The falcon of death was
a creature they knew
12
00:01:43,145 --> 00:01:49,141
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
13
00:01:53,389 --> 00:01:59,385
"The church it was crowded
and no one could see
14
00:01:59,695 --> 00:02:05,531
"That Cynthia Wesley's
dark number was three
15
00:02:06,535 --> 00:02:12,531
"Her prayers and her feelings
would shame you and me
16
00:02:13,175 --> 00:02:18,943
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
17
00:02:23,853 --> 00:02:29,052
"Young Carole Robertson entered the door
18
00:02:29,525 --> 00:02:35,327
"And the number her killers
had given was four
19
00:02:35,798 --> 00:02:41,703
"She asked for a blessing
but asked for no more
20
00:02:42,104 --> 00:02:48,009
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
21
00:02:52,648 --> 00:02:58,644
"On Birmingham Sunday
the noise shook the ground
22
00:02:59,121 --> 00:03:05,060
"And people all over the earth
turned around
23
00:03:05,861 --> 00:03:11,857
"For no one recalled
a more cowardly sound
24
00:03:12,635 --> 00:03:18,631
"And the choir kept singing of freedom
25
00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:30,376
"The men in the forest
they once asked to me
26
00:03:31,220 --> 00:03:37,216
"How many blackberries grow
in the blue sea?
27
00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:44,056
"I asked them right back
with a tear in my eye
28
00:03:44,934 --> 00:03:50,873
"How many dark ships in the forest?
29
00:03:53,042 --> 00:03:59,038
"The Sunday has come
the Sunday has gone
30
00:03:59,448 --> 00:04:04,852
"And I can't do much more
than to sing you a song
31
00:04:06,122 --> 00:04:12,118
"I'll sing it so softly it'll do no one wrong
32
00:04:13,028 --> 00:04:18,830
"And the choir keeps singing of freedom"
33
00:04:34,016 --> 00:04:35,916
I come from Arkansas originally.
34
00:04:35,985 --> 00:04:37,714
I went to school at Tuskegee and...
35
00:04:39,255 --> 00:04:40,347
...met my wife there.
36
00:04:40,422 --> 00:04:44,358
My first job after I left Tuskegee
was in Mississippi.
37
00:04:44,727 --> 00:04:46,194
It was his junior year also.
38
00:04:46,295 --> 00:04:48,058
He'd been to the service.
39
00:04:48,964 --> 00:04:51,865
I walked in with my so-called boyfriend...
40
00:04:52,034 --> 00:04:55,526
...in the lounge where the girls sat...
41
00:04:56,472 --> 00:04:58,702
...and he was with his girlfriend...
42
00:04:59,341 --> 00:05:01,866
...and I thought I was looking good.
43
00:05:02,478 --> 00:05:05,038
I'd just made this suit that I had on...
44
00:05:05,281 --> 00:05:08,478
...and he said, "Looks good.
Turn around and let me see it. "
45
00:05:08,584 --> 00:05:11,314
And I didn't have any better sense
than to do it.
46
00:05:11,387 --> 00:05:14,083
But we didn't have anything else
to do with each other...
47
00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:15,521
...other than just friendship...
48
00:05:15,591 --> 00:05:18,992
...until our senior year.
49
00:05:19,428 --> 00:05:21,760
I always said in a joking manner...
50
00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:24,390
...that I saw her at Tuskegee...
51
00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:28,631
...and felt that I would be a missionary...
52
00:05:28,737 --> 00:05:30,602
...and come to Alabama and help her out.
53
00:05:30,706 --> 00:05:33,197
So, I've been helping her out
for 46 years now.
54
00:05:33,375 --> 00:05:35,275
What I wanted in life for myself...
55
00:05:35,477 --> 00:05:39,004
...was a husband, a house,
and some children.
56
00:05:41,016 --> 00:05:42,540
When I met Chris...
57
00:05:42,985 --> 00:05:46,216
...and we did have this child, I was excited.
58
00:05:46,655 --> 00:05:48,782
But there was one little conflict.
59
00:05:49,058 --> 00:05:52,960
I couldn't leave my mama alone.
I had to come back to Birmingham...
60
00:05:53,495 --> 00:05:57,056
...have the baby in Birmingham,
with a doctor that I was familiar with...
61
00:05:57,299 --> 00:06:01,065
...and he didn't like that too hot,
but he did consent.
62
00:06:01,937 --> 00:06:04,030
Denise was a very charming child...
63
00:06:04,340 --> 00:06:06,205
...a very lovable child...
64
00:06:06,675 --> 00:06:09,439
...and a very caring child.
65
00:06:09,511 --> 00:06:10,671
I think she spent...
66
00:06:10,746 --> 00:06:14,113
...most of her time
trying to do for other children.
67
00:06:14,183 --> 00:06:17,516
She had a good group of friends
that lived in the community.
68
00:06:17,586 --> 00:06:20,487
A lot of times she would come down
to my house.
69
00:06:21,323 --> 00:06:24,417
She loved to come over here,
because at that time...
70
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,791
...she was an only child.
71
00:06:26,895 --> 00:06:30,763
And there were four children
in this house...
72
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,560
...two girls and two boys.
73
00:06:34,336 --> 00:06:37,794
She couldn't wait to find out
what everything was about...
74
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,032
...see what this is...
75
00:06:40,175 --> 00:06:43,144
...and know what this person is,
and talk to everybody.
76
00:06:43,479 --> 00:06:45,037
She was very friendly...
77
00:06:45,247 --> 00:06:47,010
...and seemingly very happy.
78
00:06:47,783 --> 00:06:51,446
Very aggressive, very feisty.
79
00:06:52,388 --> 00:06:55,357
Obviously,
when somebody's not around you...
80
00:06:55,557 --> 00:06:59,459
...you tend to praise sometimes
even where praise may not be due.
81
00:06:59,928 --> 00:07:02,226
Very inquisitive...
82
00:07:03,232 --> 00:07:04,699
...and very much a leader.
83
00:07:05,067 --> 00:07:08,901
She was a very lovable little girI.
And I miss her.
84
00:07:30,125 --> 00:07:32,491
When I came here in the '50s...
85
00:07:32,561 --> 00:07:34,927
...to get a job was a real chore...
86
00:07:35,497 --> 00:07:38,466
...especially if you came
to this blue-collar town...
87
00:07:38,567 --> 00:07:40,228
...and you had a college degree.
88
00:07:40,302 --> 00:07:42,827
You were going to steel mills
and places like that...
89
00:07:42,938 --> 00:07:44,132
...making applications...
90
00:07:44,206 --> 00:07:46,800
...and nobody was looking
for college graduates.
91
00:07:46,909 --> 00:07:48,672
Birmingham's a steel town.
92
00:07:49,578 --> 00:07:52,672
Birmingham was built in the late 1800s...
93
00:07:52,748 --> 00:07:56,047
...by the barons from the North,
who came down...
94
00:07:56,151 --> 00:07:59,120
...and realized
that we had every combination.
95
00:07:59,388 --> 00:08:03,620
We had people, we had natural resources,
we had rubber transportation.
96
00:08:04,588 --> 00:08:05,111
It grew by leaps and bounds.
97
00:08:05,188 --> 00:08:07,850
It was known as the "Magic City"
because it grew so fast.
98
00:08:07,925 --> 00:08:12,419
But you had people coming in,
a laboring class of people...
99
00:08:12,529 --> 00:08:15,293
...a blue-collar town.
And it was a violent town.
100
00:08:15,766 --> 00:08:20,169
It was a town of union violence,
condoned the violence against workers...
101
00:08:20,237 --> 00:08:22,865
...condoned by the police
and by United States Steel...
102
00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:24,999
...and the other big industrial companies.
103
00:08:25,075 --> 00:08:28,408
It had a long history of labor violence.
104
00:08:28,745 --> 00:08:30,770
So you had a tradition of violence...
105
00:08:31,748 --> 00:08:35,377
...flowing out of an industrial setting,
with the overlay of rural racism...
106
00:08:35,485 --> 00:08:39,216
...coming in from the countryside.
Traditional old South racism.
107
00:08:39,323 --> 00:08:41,120
With that background...
108
00:08:42,025 --> 00:08:45,222
...the '50s were a time of quietness here.
109
00:08:46,196 --> 00:08:50,895
A wonderful place to live
and raise a family.
110
00:08:52,402 --> 00:08:55,803
Birmingham was just Birmingham.
111
00:08:56,907 --> 00:09:01,037
White, colored.
Not white, black. White, colored.
112
00:09:01,545 --> 00:09:04,605
You would have to have lived here
to understand...
113
00:09:04,681 --> 00:09:08,117
...some of the feelings
that were going on at that time.
114
00:09:08,518 --> 00:09:11,578
Black people were in their places
and white folks in theirs...
115
00:09:11,655 --> 00:09:12,986
...if there's such a thing.
116
00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:15,758
The water fountains, black and white...
117
00:09:15,826 --> 00:09:19,819
...and all of those kinds of things existed,
and existed in order.
118
00:09:19,963 --> 00:09:21,863
You may see in some of the pictures...
119
00:09:21,932 --> 00:09:25,060
...cabs which said; "Colored only,"
or; "White only. "
120
00:09:25,168 --> 00:09:28,137
A bathroom at the bus station,
"White only. "
121
00:09:28,238 --> 00:09:29,933
I have an older brother.
122
00:09:30,107 --> 00:09:32,132
There were two of us,
nine or ten months apart...
123
00:09:32,209 --> 00:09:34,939
...and my mother
would have to make a choice.
124
00:09:35,412 --> 00:09:36,674
She would always...
125
00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:39,840
...let one of us use the white fountain,
the other use the black.
126
00:09:39,916 --> 00:09:43,511
She knew that was in violation of the law,
but she did it anyway.
127
00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:47,886
It was so hard to tell your child,
your 6 or 7-year-old...
128
00:09:47,958 --> 00:09:51,416
...when it's time for water,
you know they wanted some water...
129
00:09:51,628 --> 00:09:55,189
...and maybe the child
attempted to go to a fountain...
130
00:09:55,265 --> 00:09:56,926
...that was marked for white.
131
00:09:57,267 --> 00:09:58,996
And you would have to tell him:
132
00:09:59,102 --> 00:10:02,230
"No, let's take this fountain. "
And he'd say:
133
00:10:02,372 --> 00:10:05,739
"Why can't I go to that one?
There's nobody there. "
134
00:10:05,809 --> 00:10:09,176
And I'd say: "No, we'll just use this one. "
It was an awfuI time.
135
00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:12,214
It was an awfuI time for young people,
I'd say...
136
00:10:12,282 --> 00:10:15,012
...to grow up in this city.
137
00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:19,353
When my daughter Denise
was about 6 years old...
138
00:10:19,589 --> 00:10:24,219
I've always despised
going shopping with my wife...
139
00:10:24,761 --> 00:10:28,720
...because my patience didn't hold
to go shopping, you know...
140
00:10:28,965 --> 00:10:32,560
But at any rate,
this was Christmas and we were shopping.
141
00:10:33,837 --> 00:10:37,739
We had come to a store.
In fact, it was Kress's.
142
00:10:38,141 --> 00:10:40,507
We were going in there
to buy some ribbons.
143
00:10:41,078 --> 00:10:43,273
And when we got in to Kress's...
144
00:10:44,214 --> 00:10:46,614
...Denise said she had to go
to the restroom.
145
00:10:46,717 --> 00:10:49,208
So, we went downstairs
where the restrooms were...
146
00:10:49,352 --> 00:10:50,842
...black and white again...
147
00:10:51,088 --> 00:10:54,615
...black and colored, I beg your pardon.
White and colored.
148
00:10:55,759 --> 00:10:58,956
So, when we got down there,
the lunch counter was also there.
149
00:10:59,029 --> 00:11:01,020
You could smell the onion,
the hamburgers...
150
00:11:01,098 --> 00:11:03,566
...and Denise said she wanted a sandwich.
151
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,167
And it was kind of painfuI to say:
"No, you can't have it. "
152
00:11:07,237 --> 00:11:09,228
She wanted to know why.
153
00:11:09,706 --> 00:11:13,267
And we had to tell her
the sage old story about:
154
00:11:13,844 --> 00:11:16,108
"Whites can only eat here, but we can't.
155
00:11:16,179 --> 00:11:19,945
"We will eat when we get home. "
She didn't understand that so hot.
156
00:11:20,183 --> 00:11:24,643
That was the night that I made up my mind
that I guess I had to tell her...
157
00:11:24,721 --> 00:11:27,622
...she couldn't have that sandwich
because she was black.
158
00:11:27,724 --> 00:11:31,023
I guess for men it's worse
than it is for women...
159
00:11:32,295 --> 00:11:35,731
...because they are more sensitive...
160
00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:38,029
...or I guess that's what you might call it.
161
00:11:38,101 --> 00:11:41,696
They hate to say: "My child can't do
what everybody else's child can do...
162
00:11:41,805 --> 00:11:45,070
"... and it makes me mad
that I can't do anything about it.
163
00:11:45,375 --> 00:11:47,434
"I can't change it right now. "
164
00:11:47,911 --> 00:11:52,075
I want you to know that night
couldn't have been any more painfuI...
165
00:11:52,182 --> 00:11:55,640
...than seeing her laying up there
with a rock smashed in her head...
166
00:11:55,719 --> 00:11:59,086
...than to tell her I couldn't buy her
that sandwich down there...
167
00:11:59,156 --> 00:12:00,987
...because she was black.
168
00:12:01,525 --> 00:12:03,652
I'm not sure if she ever understood that.
169
00:12:03,727 --> 00:12:06,161
How did she react when you told her that?
170
00:12:07,130 --> 00:12:09,963
Very strange, very confused and...
171
00:12:10,367 --> 00:12:14,531
...as if a whole world of betrayal
had fallen on her at that moment.
172
00:12:18,842 --> 00:12:21,333
I remember Carole as a very vivacious...
173
00:12:22,479 --> 00:12:24,811
...lovable 14-year-old.
174
00:12:25,448 --> 00:12:28,611
The third child of Alfa and Alvin...
175
00:12:29,219 --> 00:12:31,813
...and very well loved
and taken care of in the family.
176
00:12:32,222 --> 00:12:36,522
Quite active in her schoolwork,
quite active in her church work.
177
00:12:36,626 --> 00:12:41,154
I always remember when she was born,
my father telling me...
178
00:12:41,264 --> 00:12:45,496
...that I was standing outside
in front of the house with my skates on...
179
00:12:45,569 --> 00:12:49,232
...announcing to everybody
that I had a brand new baby sister...
180
00:12:49,306 --> 00:12:52,537
...and I was so happy to have a little sister.
181
00:12:52,709 --> 00:12:57,078
Carole was a very giving, outgoing person.
182
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,244
She had a lot of friends.
183
00:13:00,650 --> 00:13:02,345
She was a beautiful daughter.
184
00:13:02,419 --> 00:13:06,515
She was an average kid, growing up.
185
00:13:06,623 --> 00:13:10,889
She was smart, she played music,
she was a Scout.
186
00:13:11,461 --> 00:13:16,728
An avid reader, she worked with the library
assistants' groups in the city and state.
187
00:13:18,435 --> 00:13:22,030
She took dancing lessons.
She didn't play the piano, though.
188
00:13:22,138 --> 00:13:26,006
I used to have to take her
to the Saturday movies with me.
189
00:13:26,142 --> 00:13:28,269
They were segregated.
190
00:13:28,345 --> 00:13:32,076
We'd have to go upstairs into the balcony.
191
00:13:32,148 --> 00:13:35,515
We'd sit and we'd throw popcorn and ice.
192
00:13:35,752 --> 00:13:38,516
We would throw them down
on the white folks.
193
00:13:40,223 --> 00:13:42,691
She always thought that was real funny...
194
00:13:42,926 --> 00:13:46,362
...but she knew that we were not supposed
to be doing that.
195
00:13:46,429 --> 00:13:48,329
So it was like, "I'm gonna tell. "
196
00:13:48,832 --> 00:13:53,701
She played clarinet in the band
at elementary school and high school.
197
00:13:53,837 --> 00:13:56,897
She was supposed to play her first game.
198
00:13:57,774 --> 00:13:59,708
That Monday night, after they were...
199
00:13:59,809 --> 00:14:03,711
After the bombing,
the band was supposed to play.
200
00:14:04,147 --> 00:14:07,241
Parker was playing somebody,
I've forgotten who.
201
00:14:07,984 --> 00:14:12,284
This is her last sash...
202
00:14:12,522 --> 00:14:14,353
...with the badges.
203
00:14:14,424 --> 00:14:17,393
She was a member, at that time...
204
00:14:17,460 --> 00:14:19,451
...of Troop 264.
205
00:14:19,863 --> 00:14:23,629
And those were the badges
that she had earned...
206
00:14:24,701 --> 00:14:26,692
...in the process.
207
00:14:27,437 --> 00:14:30,634
She had been a Scout all along...
208
00:14:30,707 --> 00:14:32,834
...from Brownie on up.
209
00:14:33,243 --> 00:14:37,737
This Bible, she had in her pocketbook...
210
00:14:38,581 --> 00:14:40,310
...the day of the bombing.
211
00:14:40,517 --> 00:14:43,748
When we got it, it had dirt, grit...
212
00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:46,015
...and part of this was torn out.
213
00:14:48,591 --> 00:14:51,025
For a long time,
I kept it in my pocketbook...
214
00:14:51,094 --> 00:14:53,722
...but I've taken it out now
and I've put it up...
215
00:14:53,797 --> 00:14:56,322
...and look at it every now and then.
216
00:14:57,534 --> 00:15:01,766
In 1949, my last year in college...
217
00:15:01,972 --> 00:15:05,464
...I went through Birmingham
with my boss...
218
00:15:05,542 --> 00:15:08,739
...I worked in the food service
in the school cafeteria...
219
00:15:09,012 --> 00:15:11,606
...Ernest O'Roark.
He was telling me on the way down...
220
00:15:11,715 --> 00:15:15,879
...about this section of Birmingham
called Dynamite Hill.
221
00:15:15,952 --> 00:15:17,783
I said, "Why is it called Dynamite Hill?"
222
00:15:17,854 --> 00:15:19,879
He said, "It used to be a garbage dump.
223
00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:23,392
"They cleared the land, fixed it up,
and black people built homes there.
224
00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:25,121
"They were nice homes...
225
00:15:25,328 --> 00:15:28,161
"... and the honkies bomb them because...
226
00:15:28,231 --> 00:15:30,722
"... they resent black folks
having good homes. "
227
00:15:31,034 --> 00:15:33,798
We arrived in Birmingham
about 4:00 in the afternoon.
228
00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:36,737
At 5:30 a bomb went off on Dynamite Hill.
229
00:15:37,841 --> 00:15:40,605
Now that's 1949,
and now you're going to fast forward...
230
00:15:40,677 --> 00:15:43,168
...to 1962.
231
00:15:43,313 --> 00:15:45,144
We're here at Bethel Baptist Church...
232
00:15:45,248 --> 00:15:49,947
...the church which served
as the headquarters for the movement...
233
00:15:50,353 --> 00:15:54,414
...for change in Birmingham, Alabama,
back in the '50s and the '60s.
234
00:15:55,158 --> 00:16:00,118
I'm standing at the corner of the church
where the house was at that time.
235
00:16:00,296 --> 00:16:02,856
Would you care to tell us
about the two bombings?
236
00:16:02,932 --> 00:16:05,833
The first bombing was in...
237
00:16:05,902 --> 00:16:08,666
...December, 1956. Christmas night...
238
00:16:09,272 --> 00:16:12,730
...when somebody planted
12 sticks of dynamite.
239
00:16:12,942 --> 00:16:17,003
The dynamite was placed right here
at the corner of the church.
240
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,945
It would've been the corner of the house.
241
00:16:19,049 --> 00:16:21,825
That's where the head of my bed was,
and I was in the bed.
242
00:16:22,059 --> 00:16:26,325
You can see the cracks in the wall, but
the implosive effects went into the house.
243
00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:30,890
It blew the wall that was between my head
and the dynamite away.
244
00:16:31,502 --> 00:16:33,470
The lights went out...
245
00:16:34,037 --> 00:16:38,303
...and I felt the head of my bed
being driven down.
246
00:16:39,476 --> 00:16:43,469
And yet, I was not afraid.
I knew I wouldn't get killed.
247
00:16:44,715 --> 00:16:46,683
I knew there was a presence there.
248
00:16:46,817 --> 00:16:50,048
At that time,
there was a lot of bombing going on.
249
00:16:50,888 --> 00:16:52,753
Even up where I lived.
250
00:16:53,357 --> 00:16:57,054
They started up on the hill,
up on Green Springs, at that time.
251
00:16:58,028 --> 00:17:00,792
There was only about 11 houses
and only about...
252
00:17:00,898 --> 00:17:03,025
We were the first black family up there.
253
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:05,361
They would drive by.
254
00:17:05,469 --> 00:17:09,929
In fact, they threw a fire bomb
into our yard, between the houses.
255
00:17:10,107 --> 00:17:11,665
When the problems came...
256
00:17:11,742 --> 00:17:15,371
...we all had to just run in our closets...
257
00:17:15,479 --> 00:17:17,674
...when we would hear the bombs
and so forth.
258
00:17:17,748 --> 00:17:20,717
But it was just a common thing
that was happening.
259
00:17:20,918 --> 00:17:24,911
You could be sitting comfortable
and the dynamite would go off.
260
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:27,316
One of the interesting parts of that night...
261
00:17:27,424 --> 00:17:30,154
...and that's a dramatic situation...
262
00:17:30,260 --> 00:17:33,388
...the house was leaning
and you couldn't get out.
263
00:17:33,463 --> 00:17:34,930
A crowd instantaneously...
264
00:17:34,998 --> 00:17:38,490
This street was filled
within two or three minutes.
265
00:17:39,069 --> 00:17:42,630
A big burly policeman came back.
266
00:17:42,873 --> 00:17:45,341
This policeman decided
to give me some advice.
267
00:17:45,509 --> 00:17:48,342
Incidentally, he was a Klansman...
268
00:17:48,512 --> 00:17:53,142
...because, we think at that time,
about a third of Birmingham policemen...
269
00:17:53,217 --> 00:17:55,014
...either were Klansman...
270
00:17:55,085 --> 00:17:56,780
...or had Klan affiliation.
271
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,289
He said, "I really didn't believe
that they would go this far. "
272
00:18:02,693 --> 00:18:06,629
He said, "Reverend, I'll tell you
what I'd do, if I were you.
273
00:18:06,697 --> 00:18:09,222
"I'd get out of town as quick as I could. "
274
00:18:09,733 --> 00:18:11,826
I said, "Officer, you're not me.
275
00:18:12,569 --> 00:18:14,503
"You go back and tell your Klan brethren...
276
00:18:14,571 --> 00:18:17,096
"... that if God could keep me through this...
277
00:18:17,774 --> 00:18:20,265
"... that the war zone,
the battle has just begun...
278
00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:22,410
"... and I'll be around for the duration. "
279
00:18:22,512 --> 00:18:26,209
We'll make like this is back in the '60s.
280
00:18:27,351 --> 00:18:30,650
- How old were you back then?
- At the time, I was 14.
281
00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:32,321
You were the same age as Cynthia.
282
00:18:32,422 --> 00:18:33,411
The same age.
283
00:18:33,523 --> 00:18:37,721
This is the house she was brought up in,
right here.
284
00:18:38,362 --> 00:18:40,523
We would play all out here.
285
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,061
She would have little lawn parties.
286
00:18:46,603 --> 00:18:48,264
She was well liked.
287
00:18:49,206 --> 00:18:52,664
We had no idea of the tragedy
that was going to happen, but...
288
00:18:54,344 --> 00:18:56,039
...she lived a normal life.
289
00:18:56,914 --> 00:18:58,472
Cynthia was...
290
00:18:58,548 --> 00:19:01,073
This is 30-some years ago, but...
291
00:19:01,285 --> 00:19:02,217
Images.
292
00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:04,310
Cynthia could have humor.
293
00:19:04,421 --> 00:19:08,255
I remember laughing with Cynthia.
You could have jokes.
294
00:19:08,325 --> 00:19:09,724
I remember that well.
295
00:19:09,826 --> 00:19:11,885
She was caring. Some people aren't.
296
00:19:11,962 --> 00:19:12,951
I was younger.
297
00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:14,691
I was a fat little young boy.
298
00:19:14,765 --> 00:19:18,223
Some people didn't want to be bothered
with me. Cynthia would.
299
00:19:18,335 --> 00:19:19,893
She would, she'd take time...
300
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:22,131
...and just be nice to me as a human being.
301
00:19:22,205 --> 00:19:23,695
Cynthia Wesley...
302
00:19:26,176 --> 00:19:29,634
...was the daughter of Claude...
303
00:19:29,846 --> 00:19:31,746
...Mr. and Mrs. Claude Wesley.
304
00:19:32,215 --> 00:19:34,308
He was principal...
305
00:19:34,384 --> 00:19:36,614
...of Lewis School at that time.
306
00:19:36,820 --> 00:19:39,050
Cynthia was a delightful young lady.
307
00:19:39,122 --> 00:19:42,956
The Wesleys adopted Cynthia
when she was quite young...
308
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,888
...and she grew up in 16th Street Church
with them.
309
00:19:46,997 --> 00:19:50,125
Cynthia was very involved in church.
310
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,896
She was in the choir, and in fact...
311
00:19:53,737 --> 00:19:56,262
...the Sunday of the bombing,
on September 15...
312
00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:59,104
...Cynthia would have begun her first...
313
00:20:00,978 --> 00:20:03,742
...opportunity as an usher, on that Sunday.
314
00:20:03,947 --> 00:20:06,848
I was probably closest to Cynthia Wesley.
315
00:20:06,984 --> 00:20:09,214
We were in a little club together.
316
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:14,682
In this club we had little outfits
that matched, and hats.
317
00:20:14,958 --> 00:20:17,392
We had just ordered
some new stuff to wear.
318
00:20:17,527 --> 00:20:20,519
In fact, after she was killed,
we took what she had ordered...
319
00:20:20,597 --> 00:20:22,690
...to her mom's house, and talked to her.
320
00:20:22,833 --> 00:20:25,631
On the Sunday morning, the 15th...
321
00:20:26,103 --> 00:20:29,504
...when Cynthia and the other girls
came to Sunday school...
322
00:20:30,474 --> 00:20:32,840
...I remember my mother telling me...
323
00:20:32,909 --> 00:20:35,309
...how she had chided Cynthia...
324
00:20:35,379 --> 00:20:37,438
...because, as she came out of the house...
325
00:20:37,581 --> 00:20:40,243
...she noticed that her slip was hanging.
326
00:20:40,484 --> 00:20:43,112
My mother told her to go back in the room.
327
00:20:43,787 --> 00:20:46,312
What I'd like to do
is read a statement about that...
328
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:48,984
...because the way my mother
presented this to her...
329
00:20:49,059 --> 00:20:52,927
...is something pretty typical
that mothers would say to their daughters.
330
00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:55,590
My mother stated that:
331
00:20:55,966 --> 00:20:58,901
"Young lady,
your slip is hanging below your dress.
332
00:20:59,503 --> 00:21:02,836
"You just don't put your clothes on
any way when you go to church...
333
00:21:02,906 --> 00:21:05,534
"... because you never know
how you're coming back.
334
00:21:06,410 --> 00:21:08,742
"Cynthia hurriedly made
the necessary adjustments...
335
00:21:08,812 --> 00:21:10,404
"... then ran out of the door. "
336
00:21:11,281 --> 00:21:13,579
My mother never saw her after that.
337
00:21:18,321 --> 00:21:19,447
I'm sorry.
338
00:21:26,463 --> 00:21:28,158
My mother said...
339
00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:35,766
I didn't think I'd do this. I'm sorry.
340
00:21:48,452 --> 00:21:51,182
In 1961...
341
00:21:51,922 --> 00:21:54,652
...the Freedom Riders came to Birmingham.
342
00:21:57,327 --> 00:22:00,319
One of their buses was burned in Aniston.
343
00:22:00,397 --> 00:22:02,957
They had one bus left
and they all came on that bus...
344
00:22:03,066 --> 00:22:04,158
...to Birmingham.
345
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:09,565
They went to the Trailways bus station.
346
00:22:09,706 --> 00:22:13,369
National television was waiting for them
at the Greyhound bus station.
347
00:22:14,177 --> 00:22:16,042
They didn't just beat Freedom Riders.
348
00:22:16,113 --> 00:22:18,946
There were people who'd just come
to beat the bus.
349
00:22:19,082 --> 00:22:20,242
But one photographer...
350
00:22:20,317 --> 00:22:24,219
...was at the station
and took a picture of the beating.
351
00:22:24,621 --> 00:22:26,350
They turned on him...
352
00:22:26,423 --> 00:22:28,948
...and beat him, and took his camera away.
353
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,861
And being very scientific...
354
00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:36,989
...they broke the lens
and threw the camera in the trash can...
355
00:22:37,334 --> 00:22:39,859
...but never opened it and exposed the film.
356
00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:44,636
So that picture went out of here
on the UPI wire.
357
00:22:45,108 --> 00:22:49,408
It was front-page in newspapers
all over the world.
358
00:22:49,713 --> 00:22:52,739
A group of Birmingham businessmen
were in Tokyo at the time...
359
00:22:52,816 --> 00:22:54,078
...at a meeting...
360
00:22:54,151 --> 00:22:56,483
...of the International Rotary Club.
361
00:22:57,888 --> 00:23:01,051
When they saw that picture
on the front page...
362
00:23:01,558 --> 00:23:05,119
...of a newspaper in Tokyo, Japan...
363
00:23:05,195 --> 00:23:07,959
...they said:
"We can't take much more of this. "
364
00:23:08,198 --> 00:23:09,495
Birmingham...
365
00:23:11,801 --> 00:23:13,860
...at the time, was going through...
366
00:23:15,105 --> 00:23:16,868
...a move where...
367
00:23:18,575 --> 00:23:23,069
...some of the moderate forces
in the white community...
368
00:23:23,146 --> 00:23:26,741
...were trying to finally assert themselves.
369
00:23:27,918 --> 00:23:29,909
And it was a long time overdue.
370
00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:32,284
A state court is expected
to rule next week...
371
00:23:32,355 --> 00:23:35,882
...on whether mayor-elect, Albert Boutwell,
can take office immediately.
372
00:23:36,059 --> 00:23:39,119
Boutwell was asked if he's ready
to meet with Negro leaders.
373
00:23:39,829 --> 00:23:41,456
"I'm ready at any time...
374
00:23:42,332 --> 00:23:45,495
"... when the immediate threat of violence...
375
00:23:45,569 --> 00:23:47,662
"... has been removed...
376
00:23:47,904 --> 00:23:52,068
"... to talk to any responsible local people...
377
00:23:53,043 --> 00:23:56,376
"... regardless of the color of their skins. "
378
00:23:56,713 --> 00:23:58,408
Birmingham is a symbol...
379
00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:02,178
...of hardcore resistance to integration.
380
00:24:02,552 --> 00:24:06,454
It is probably
the most thoroughly segregated city...
381
00:24:06,523 --> 00:24:08,714
...in the United States.
382
00:24:10,049 --> 00:24:12,415
SCLC had been really
just organized in 1957.
383
00:24:12,551 --> 00:24:16,885
About a hundred preachers
got together in Louisiana.
384
00:24:19,492 --> 00:24:22,427
We hadn't had much luck.
We didn't have much staff.
385
00:24:22,495 --> 00:24:25,953
Fred Shuttlesworth came to see
Martin Luther King and said;
386
00:24:26,065 --> 00:24:27,259
"Martin, you've got to...
387
00:24:27,333 --> 00:24:30,700
"... help us in Birmingham.
We just got to move on Birmingham. "
388
00:24:30,903 --> 00:24:33,201
The federal government has decided...
389
00:24:34,273 --> 00:24:37,731
...that Negroes as citizens
must be protected from lawlessness...
390
00:24:37,877 --> 00:24:39,367
...and mobocracy.
391
00:24:40,246 --> 00:24:42,043
And that's why we're here.
392
00:24:42,748 --> 00:24:45,182
Fred Shuttlesworth had been fighting
in Birmingham...
393
00:24:45,251 --> 00:24:47,481
...for ten years, by this time.
394
00:24:47,687 --> 00:24:51,646
The Alabama organization
was almost his personal creation...
395
00:24:51,724 --> 00:24:52,884
...in Birmingham...
396
00:24:52,958 --> 00:24:56,325
...in the same sense that SCLC
was a personal creation for Dr. King.
397
00:24:56,729 --> 00:24:58,629
In the fall of 1962...
398
00:24:58,698 --> 00:25:01,189
...almost six months
before the breakthrough in May...
399
00:25:01,267 --> 00:25:03,565
...and a year before
the Birmingham church bombing...
400
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:05,763
...Shuttlesworth had had an agreement...
401
00:25:05,838 --> 00:25:09,467
...after lots of boycotts in Birmingham
with the merchants...
402
00:25:09,542 --> 00:25:12,010
...for what we would now regard as...
403
00:25:12,078 --> 00:25:14,603
...the most minimum token segregation...
404
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,706
...of allowing black shoppers,
mostly women...
405
00:25:17,850 --> 00:25:22,446
...to shop and use the restrooms
and changing rooms in downtown stores.
406
00:25:22,655 --> 00:25:24,145
He'd made these agreements...
407
00:25:24,223 --> 00:25:27,317
...and then they re-segregated everything
in the fall of 1962.
408
00:25:27,693 --> 00:25:32,221
I think by then his patience ran out
and he said:
409
00:25:33,332 --> 00:25:36,859
"Bravery alone is not enough.
We need to bring in a larger spotlight. "
410
00:25:36,936 --> 00:25:40,667
To him, bringing a larger spotlight
meant bringing in Dr. King.
411
00:25:41,407 --> 00:25:44,035
We made a decision
based on several things.
412
00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:47,602
Fred Shuttlesworth
was fearless and courageous...
413
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,705
...to the point of being almost insane.
414
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:53,484
He miraculously survived a bombing
of his home...
415
00:25:53,753 --> 00:25:57,086
...had taken his wife and two children
trying to integrate a school...
416
00:25:57,156 --> 00:26:01,217
...with a mob of 500 or 600 folks
with chains and stuff.
417
00:26:01,293 --> 00:26:03,784
Just an incredible human being in my view.
418
00:26:03,863 --> 00:26:07,993
One day in 1957, in the afternoon,
on the evening newscast...
419
00:26:08,134 --> 00:26:11,297
...there was a piece of film
of a gang of white men...
420
00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:13,565
...beating Fred Shuttlesworth...
421
00:26:14,607 --> 00:26:18,839
...in the street, outside Phillips High School
where he'd taken his children.
422
00:26:19,145 --> 00:26:21,375
With chains, they beat him to the ground.
423
00:26:22,448 --> 00:26:25,781
The reason it was riveting for me,
I was 14 years old...
424
00:26:27,186 --> 00:26:31,816
...was that the police said
they couldn't find the men who did it.
425
00:26:32,925 --> 00:26:36,383
And I recognized one of the men.
I knew who he was.
426
00:26:36,462 --> 00:26:38,862
I'd seen him at Jack Cash's Barbecue...
427
00:26:38,964 --> 00:26:42,127
...and I knew the police hung out
at Jack Cash's Barbecue...
428
00:26:42,201 --> 00:26:43,759
...and I knew they were Iying.
429
00:26:44,503 --> 00:26:48,269
It was the last place,
I think, I wanted to go...
430
00:26:48,641 --> 00:26:51,201
...with Martin Luther King in 1963.
431
00:26:51,877 --> 00:26:54,402
And yet, it was the place we had to go.
432
00:26:56,782 --> 00:27:00,775
Addie Mae Collins was
a little more withdrawn, I think.
433
00:27:01,287 --> 00:27:03,915
Friendly, but not as aggressive...
434
00:27:03,989 --> 00:27:07,322
...as Cynthia or Denise.
435
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,458
To know Addie is to love Addie.
436
00:27:10,563 --> 00:27:12,997
She was just a funny girI...
437
00:27:13,399 --> 00:27:15,867
...a sweet peacefuI girI.
438
00:27:15,968 --> 00:27:18,869
She just liked to make peace with people...
439
00:27:18,938 --> 00:27:21,634
...and people to be at peace around.
440
00:27:21,974 --> 00:27:24,534
She wasn't a mean person,
she was just sweet.
441
00:27:25,077 --> 00:27:26,305
Remember with Denise...
442
00:27:26,378 --> 00:27:28,539
...when the bird died,
it was the weirdest thing?
443
00:27:28,614 --> 00:27:31,742
I have to tell you the bird story.
We saw a dead bird.
444
00:27:31,884 --> 00:27:34,910
We thought, "It's just a dead bird,
kick it out of the way. "
445
00:27:34,987 --> 00:27:38,684
Denise said, "Oh no,
the bird must have a funeral."
446
00:27:38,757 --> 00:27:43,057
We were like,
"Just put it somewhere so we can play. "
447
00:27:43,128 --> 00:27:46,962
She said, "No, we've got to have a funeral
for the poor bird. "
448
00:27:47,032 --> 00:27:50,331
She got her mother,
and Mrs. McNair has a beautifuI voice...
449
00:27:50,402 --> 00:27:54,395
She got her mother, she got the shoebox.
The boys had to dig a hole.
450
00:27:54,707 --> 00:27:56,504
And we buried the bird.
451
00:27:56,575 --> 00:28:00,272
Mrs. McNair sang the Lord's Prayer,
and it was beautifuI.
452
00:28:00,346 --> 00:28:04,510
Then we all bowed and we prayed,
and said something...
453
00:28:05,284 --> 00:28:06,546
Then, "Let's play ball. "
454
00:28:07,286 --> 00:28:11,814
The first Sunday that we marched,
Palm Sunday, I think it was...
455
00:28:12,725 --> 00:28:15,216
No, it wasn't Palm Sunday,
it was a Sunday...
456
00:28:15,294 --> 00:28:19,731
And the church services of the pastor's,
the afternoon service, ran a little late.
457
00:28:20,666 --> 00:28:23,726
We were supposed to march at 4;00.
It was about 6;30.
458
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:27,836
By the time we got ready to march,
there was about 1,200 people out there...
459
00:28:27,940 --> 00:28:31,501
...milling around Ingram Park,
waiting to see something happen.
460
00:28:32,244 --> 00:28:35,145
And Bull's folks out there with the dogs.
461
00:28:36,248 --> 00:28:40,514
Before you knew it, something was
going on between the police with the dogs.
462
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,588
The next day, the UPI said:
463
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:46,953
"Eleven hundred march in Birmingham,
15 arrested. "
464
00:28:47,059 --> 00:28:49,289
I called Doctor. I said, "Dr. King, I got it. "
465
00:28:49,361 --> 00:28:50,692
He said, "What is it?"
466
00:28:50,763 --> 00:28:53,755
I said, "We're just going to slow down
the time of the march...
467
00:28:53,832 --> 00:28:56,096
"... until the people get home
from work every day.
468
00:28:56,168 --> 00:28:57,328
"We'll get a crowd.
469
00:28:57,403 --> 00:28:59,997
"We can count on Bull
to do something silly. "
470
00:29:01,774 --> 00:29:03,503
If there's anybody in this nation...
471
00:29:03,575 --> 00:29:06,601
...who understands
what's going on here, it is me.
472
00:29:06,812 --> 00:29:09,372
I know that we have sufficient manpower...
473
00:29:09,448 --> 00:29:12,611
...enough trained officers
to keep the peace in Birmingham...
474
00:29:12,685 --> 00:29:16,052
...without any outside help
from the federal government.
475
00:29:16,455 --> 00:29:18,013
Eugene "Bull" O'Connor...
476
00:29:19,191 --> 00:29:21,955
...was the police commissioner.
477
00:29:22,027 --> 00:29:24,791
Commissioner of fire and safety.
478
00:29:26,098 --> 00:29:28,123
It's ironic that safety would be...
479
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,930
...in the hands of a man
who was so unsafe.
480
00:29:31,003 --> 00:29:32,630
He kept people so insecure.
481
00:29:32,905 --> 00:29:35,396
He was about as hardcore as they come.
482
00:29:36,508 --> 00:29:40,672
He was one of those people
that drew the line and never retreated.
483
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,676
I don't think he felt
that blacks had any rights.
484
00:29:45,751 --> 00:29:48,083
I don't think he felt
they should be citizens even.
485
00:29:48,187 --> 00:29:50,280
I used to wonder if he was a Christian.
486
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:52,323
They say he was,
but I don't believe he was.
487
00:29:52,424 --> 00:29:55,188
I don't think anybody
could do any race of people...
488
00:29:55,294 --> 00:29:57,626
...the many things that they did
to black people.
489
00:29:57,696 --> 00:30:01,223
Bull O'Connor liked
to keep black folk in their place.
490
00:30:02,001 --> 00:30:05,937
All of the arrests and
all the demonstrations in Birmingham...
491
00:30:06,338 --> 00:30:08,238
...occurred within...
492
00:30:08,474 --> 00:30:11,204
...four blocks of 16th Street Baptist Church.
493
00:30:11,744 --> 00:30:15,236
We'd meet in the church,
we'd march a few blocks...
494
00:30:15,314 --> 00:30:16,975
...then he'd lock everybody up.
495
00:30:17,649 --> 00:30:20,675
When there were too many people
to lock up...
496
00:30:20,753 --> 00:30:23,779
...he'd call on the dogs and the fire hoses...
497
00:30:23,856 --> 00:30:27,053
...and try to clear the street by force.
498
00:30:27,326 --> 00:30:29,157
When he saw any strength...
499
00:30:29,528 --> 00:30:33,055
...or self-respect in a black person,
he just went crazy.
500
00:30:33,198 --> 00:30:35,223
He couldn't stand it.
501
00:30:35,834 --> 00:30:38,064
It's like, "When you see me,
you gotta squat. "
502
00:30:38,137 --> 00:30:42,369
So, if you don't become ingratiating...
503
00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,107
...he'd just go crazy.
504
00:30:44,176 --> 00:30:48,272
He had a white tank that he would ride
through the black neighborhoods...
505
00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:52,510
...and terrorize people in the neighborhood
in his white tank.
506
00:30:52,584 --> 00:30:56,111
There was almost no way to talk
to him or reason with him.
507
00:30:56,355 --> 00:30:57,481
It was his town.
508
00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:02,084
It was almost like the old West,
where he was one-man rule.
509
00:31:02,294 --> 00:31:04,694
Bull Connor indeed did spit on me.
Yes, he did.
510
00:31:04,763 --> 00:31:07,129
Whether he was just upset
in talking and it came...
511
00:31:07,199 --> 00:31:09,633
...or on purpose,
I don't know, but he was hating me.
512
00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:13,000
What happened was,
we went through the training session.
513
00:31:13,072 --> 00:31:16,371
They took us by the Baptist Church
and we left from that area.
514
00:31:16,475 --> 00:31:19,308
We were able to march.
We marched right up to City Hall.
515
00:31:19,711 --> 00:31:24,307
There was this white man,
red-faced man, looking mean.
516
00:31:25,317 --> 00:31:27,911
His name was indeed Bull Connor.
517
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,421
Whether he said "nigger" or "nigra"
I'm not even sure...
518
00:31:31,490 --> 00:31:34,982
...but he looked down at me and said,
"What do you want, little nigger?"
519
00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:37,392
I said, "We want our freedom,
we want to pray. "
520
00:31:37,496 --> 00:31:41,899
As soon as I said that, intentionally or not,
he spat on me. I remember that well.
521
00:31:41,967 --> 00:31:44,231
Bull was the manifestation...
522
00:31:45,838 --> 00:31:47,601
...of the perversity...
523
00:31:48,574 --> 00:31:51,475
...upon which segregation
depended for its life.
524
00:31:51,944 --> 00:31:53,036
He was...
525
00:31:56,348 --> 00:31:59,317
Bull was like the walking id
of Birmingham...
526
00:31:59,418 --> 00:32:01,648
...the dark spirit of Birmingham...
527
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,912
...the hellish side of Birmingham
made embodied.
528
00:32:04,990 --> 00:32:07,083
It sounds dramatic,
but it was a dramatic time.
529
00:32:07,493 --> 00:32:09,290
He didn't have but one eye.
530
00:32:09,361 --> 00:32:11,420
He was a Sunday school teacher.
531
00:32:11,864 --> 00:32:15,391
Had a kind of wiry, raspy voice...
532
00:32:15,501 --> 00:32:17,526
...which was kind of coarse.
533
00:32:19,471 --> 00:32:22,634
He was not a large man
but he had a lot of power.
534
00:32:23,208 --> 00:32:26,302
Most of the white people were afraid
of him, most all Negroes.
535
00:32:26,378 --> 00:32:28,608
I guess I didn't have sense enough
to be afraid.
536
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,639
I used to be afraid of Bull
until I discovered he was crazy.
537
00:32:32,885 --> 00:32:36,515
When I discovered he was crazy,
my whole attitude changed.
538
00:32:36,816 --> 00:32:40,308
Al Hibler was at the Trailways bus depot,
on the corner.
539
00:32:40,886 --> 00:32:44,049
All of them put us in jail
and put us in the paddy wagon.
540
00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:46,784
Al Hibler was standing
beside the building like that...
541
00:32:46,859 --> 00:32:48,224
...and Bull looked and said;
542
00:32:48,294 --> 00:32:51,889
"HeyI Go on and get that blind nigger
and bring him over herel"
543
00:32:53,732 --> 00:32:56,530
See how funny this insane man was?
544
00:32:56,735 --> 00:33:00,364
He's hollering across the street,
"Bring that blind nigger over here!"
545
00:33:00,706 --> 00:33:02,469
Now here's a blind man.
546
00:33:02,808 --> 00:33:04,537
He doesn't understand human nature...
547
00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:07,511
...enough to relate even to a blind man.
Bull was like that.
548
00:33:08,147 --> 00:33:10,877
You wonder what makes
people like that tick.
549
00:33:11,951 --> 00:33:15,614
What's going on inside their mind...
550
00:33:15,688 --> 00:33:18,179
...the brain, the head, if they have a brain...
551
00:33:18,657 --> 00:33:22,115
...that makes them hate folk...
552
00:33:22,194 --> 00:33:26,688
...want to do evil, the way that they did.
553
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,962
You just wonder,
"What are they thinking about?"
554
00:33:30,069 --> 00:33:34,005
You must understand
that a Bull O'Connor couldn't exist...
555
00:33:34,273 --> 00:33:38,141
...without the nods
from the status quo people.
556
00:33:38,244 --> 00:33:40,678
The big boys in any town.
557
00:33:40,746 --> 00:33:43,180
No Bull O'Connor can exist without them.
558
00:33:43,315 --> 00:33:47,115
He may be the person
who actually does the talking...
559
00:33:47,286 --> 00:33:51,222
...but, believe me, the Bull O'Connors
have the blessing of somebody else.
560
00:33:51,357 --> 00:33:53,723
In the name of the greatest people...
561
00:33:53,792 --> 00:33:56,192
...that have ever trod this earth...
562
00:33:56,495 --> 00:33:58,929
...I draw the line in the dust...
563
00:33:58,998 --> 00:34:01,990
...and toss the gauntlet
before the feet of tyranny...
564
00:34:02,101 --> 00:34:04,797
...and I say segregation now...
565
00:34:04,904 --> 00:34:09,068
...segregation tomorrow,
and segregation foreverI
566
00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:15,576
I think George Wallace was the cause
of many people's death.
567
00:34:15,648 --> 00:34:17,115
Certainly much suffering.
568
00:34:17,182 --> 00:34:20,413
The whites of Birmingham should've
been commended by the President...
569
00:34:20,486 --> 00:34:22,750
...for their restraint
during the demonstrations.
570
00:34:22,821 --> 00:34:25,756
White people have not been involved,
only lawless Negroes.
571
00:34:25,824 --> 00:34:29,555
George Wallace was
a dynamic expression...
572
00:34:29,695 --> 00:34:32,220
...of the mentally deranged white people.
573
00:34:33,532 --> 00:34:36,000
People who are afraid of change...
574
00:34:36,101 --> 00:34:40,367
...and frustration, George Wallace
expressed that mental illness.
575
00:34:40,539 --> 00:34:42,336
He's dynamic. Best in the business.
576
00:34:42,441 --> 00:34:44,841
"Now therefore, I, George C. Wallace...
577
00:34:45,110 --> 00:34:49,740
"... as Governor of the State of Alabama,
have, by my action, raised issues...
578
00:34:49,815 --> 00:34:54,013
"... between the central government
and the sovereign State of Alabama...
579
00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:56,654
"... which said issues
should be adjudicated...
580
00:34:56,722 --> 00:35:00,249
"... in the manner prescribed
by the Constitution of the United States...
581
00:35:00,359 --> 00:35:02,987
"... and being mindful of my duties
and responsibilities...
582
00:35:03,062 --> 00:35:05,360
"... under the Constitution
of the United States...
583
00:35:05,431 --> 00:35:07,524
"... the Constitution
of the State of Alabama...
584
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,832
"... and seeking to preserve and maintain
the peace and dignity of this state...
585
00:35:12,037 --> 00:35:14,904
"... and the individual freedoms
of the citizens thereof...
586
00:35:14,974 --> 00:35:17,875
"... do hereby denounce and forbid... "
587
00:35:42,368 --> 00:35:43,562
Governor Wallace...
588
00:35:44,169 --> 00:35:49,106
...I take it from that statement
that you are going to stand in that door...
589
00:35:49,308 --> 00:35:53,472
...and that you are not going to
carry out the orders of this court...
590
00:35:53,712 --> 00:35:55,873
...and that you will resist us from doing so.
591
00:35:55,948 --> 00:35:59,315
- Is that correct?
- I stand upon that statement.
592
00:36:00,052 --> 00:36:03,112
The day in which Governor Wallace
stood in the door was...
593
00:36:03,222 --> 00:36:07,283
...a really hot Alabama summer day.
594
00:36:10,329 --> 00:36:12,388
Going down before we got there...
595
00:36:12,464 --> 00:36:15,490
...I had been interrupted
and had a call from Bobby...
596
00:36:16,402 --> 00:36:19,769
...who said the President wants you
to make him look silly.
597
00:36:20,205 --> 00:36:21,604
I said, "How do you do that?"
598
00:36:21,674 --> 00:36:24,609
He said, "I don't know,
but you figure it out. "
599
00:36:25,044 --> 00:36:26,602
So I was nervous about that...
600
00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:30,308
...and I was hot and irritated
at the whole show...
601
00:36:30,382 --> 00:36:32,680
...at the hundreds of newsmen
and cameras.
602
00:36:33,285 --> 00:36:35,150
All of this for something...
603
00:36:35,854 --> 00:36:38,789
...that I thought
was just plain wrong and silly.
604
00:36:39,224 --> 00:36:41,419
A silly point that he was trying to make.
605
00:37:02,147 --> 00:37:04,012
George Wallace was George Wallace.
606
00:37:04,183 --> 00:37:06,981
He's seeking redemption now,
I understand.
607
00:37:07,753 --> 00:37:09,618
Sometimes I wonder...
608
00:37:09,722 --> 00:37:13,453
...if he believed in all of those things
he did himself...
609
00:37:13,892 --> 00:37:16,690
...or if he was doing it because it was...
610
00:37:17,029 --> 00:37:19,998
...expedient to do as a politician.
611
00:37:45,424 --> 00:37:48,860
George Wallace, when he was
an elected person in office...
612
00:37:49,194 --> 00:37:51,662
...was very much like...
613
00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:54,198
...a situation in a story I had in The Reader.
614
00:37:54,633 --> 00:37:57,602
In The Reader, the horse...
615
00:37:58,771 --> 00:38:02,400
...used to be a fire horse,
and he was sold to a milk company.
616
00:38:04,143 --> 00:38:06,543
When he was sold to the milk company...
617
00:38:06,612 --> 00:38:08,739
...one day the milkman
stopped at a house...
618
00:38:08,814 --> 00:38:11,874
...and was going up
to set a bottle of milk down...
619
00:38:11,950 --> 00:38:13,918
...and the fire whistle blew.
620
00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:16,852
When the whistle blew,
the horse took off with the wagon...
621
00:38:16,955 --> 00:38:18,217
...and broke all the milk.
622
00:38:18,323 --> 00:38:20,723
George Wallace was that type of person.
623
00:38:20,926 --> 00:38:22,587
As long as he was sitting down...
624
00:38:22,661 --> 00:38:26,688
...talking to you one on one,
nicest guy you ever want to sit down with.
625
00:38:26,832 --> 00:38:30,324
But when the cameras came
and got on him in the political arena...
626
00:38:30,402 --> 00:38:34,361
...he turned into that fire horse
and broke every bottle of milk on the truck.
627
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,270
Ed, come over here, just one minute.
628
00:38:41,914 --> 00:38:44,747
Here's one of my best friends, right here.
629
00:38:45,217 --> 00:38:47,082
My best friend, right here.
630
00:38:47,452 --> 00:38:51,388
I wouldn't go anywhere without him.
All over the world with me.
631
00:39:02,401 --> 00:39:05,131
Would you stand for our opening hymn,
Hymn 350...
632
00:39:05,204 --> 00:39:07,968
...The Church is One Foundation.
633
00:40:03,328 --> 00:40:05,694
One of the things you have to have...
634
00:40:05,764 --> 00:40:08,824
...in a movement is a meeting place.
635
00:40:09,368 --> 00:40:13,805
Rev. John Cross and the people
of 16th Street Baptist Church...
636
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:16,704
...literally made their church
the headquarters.
637
00:40:16,838 --> 00:40:18,567
It was a movement church by logistics...
638
00:40:18,673 --> 00:40:22,302
...as it was right across the street
from Kelly Ingram Park...
639
00:40:22,744 --> 00:40:24,575
...which was the gathering ground...
640
00:40:24,646 --> 00:40:28,514
...and almost catecorner
from the Gas & Motel...
641
00:40:28,583 --> 00:40:30,676
...where the movement people
headquartered.
642
00:40:30,752 --> 00:40:32,982
It was very convenient, close to downtown.
643
00:40:33,054 --> 00:40:37,252
You could gather in the 16th Street Church
and march downtown from there.
644
00:40:37,358 --> 00:40:39,451
I was 12 years old...
645
00:40:39,961 --> 00:40:43,897
...when the marching began...
646
00:40:43,965 --> 00:40:45,796
...when Dr. King was there...
647
00:40:45,867 --> 00:40:49,564
...and Rev. Young and Rev. Bevel...
648
00:40:49,704 --> 00:40:51,729
...and Rev. Abernathy.
649
00:40:51,806 --> 00:40:55,765
First of all, I was very impressed
by how articulate they were.
650
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:57,741
They'd walk into the audience and tell us:
651
00:40:57,812 --> 00:41:01,248
"If you've got anything in your pocket,
even a nail file, let's have it.
652
00:41:01,315 --> 00:41:04,045
"We don't want anybody
to think or be able to say...
653
00:41:04,118 --> 00:41:07,212
"... we're here for any purpose
other than what we're here for...
654
00:41:07,288 --> 00:41:10,883
"... which is a serious march
to try to regain our rights. "
655
00:41:11,025 --> 00:41:13,721
You can't imagine how it really was.
656
00:41:14,929 --> 00:41:18,057
There were some good days
and there were some bad days.
657
00:41:18,132 --> 00:41:20,498
- We've come a long way.
- I remember the good days...
658
00:41:20,568 --> 00:41:22,695
...because I used to love
the freedom songs.
659
00:41:22,804 --> 00:41:24,101
And my favorite was;
660
00:41:24,172 --> 00:41:27,938
"All bound in jail
661
00:41:28,142 --> 00:41:31,578
"Had nobody to go their bail
662
00:41:32,180 --> 00:41:36,082
"Keep your eyes on the prize
663
00:41:36,250 --> 00:41:40,118
"Hold on, my Lordy, hold on
664
00:41:40,188 --> 00:41:43,624
"The only thing that we did wrong
665
00:41:44,058 --> 00:41:47,926
"We stayed in the wilderness
a day too long
666
00:41:48,262 --> 00:41:52,130
"Keep your eyes on the prize
667
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,465
"Hold on, my Lordy, hold on
668
00:41:56,304 --> 00:41:59,296
"Hold on
669
00:42:00,141 --> 00:42:03,076
"Hold on
670
00:42:03,277 --> 00:42:07,236
"Keep your eyes on the prize
671
00:42:07,548 --> 00:42:11,279
"Hold on, my Lordy, hold on"
672
00:42:11,786 --> 00:42:14,414
Negotiations are unproductive.
673
00:42:14,756 --> 00:42:18,988
We have no alternative
but to demonstrate.
674
00:42:19,193 --> 00:42:21,320
In a meeting today, we discussed...
675
00:42:21,395 --> 00:42:24,228
...all of these issues, and we all agree...
676
00:42:24,332 --> 00:42:28,098
...that if the present negotiations...
677
00:42:28,402 --> 00:42:30,461
...that are taking place...
678
00:42:30,605 --> 00:42:32,470
...are not productive...
679
00:42:32,540 --> 00:42:34,098
...we will have no alternative...
680
00:42:34,175 --> 00:42:37,474
...but to call for the new demonstrations...
681
00:42:37,545 --> 00:42:39,274
...here in Birmingham, Alabama.
682
00:42:39,347 --> 00:42:40,609
The movement was failing.
683
00:42:41,616 --> 00:42:45,017
Nobody was even asking questions
at press conferences in Washington...
684
00:42:45,086 --> 00:42:46,644
...about Birmingham...
685
00:42:46,721 --> 00:42:51,158
...after two months
of active demonstrations.
686
00:42:51,259 --> 00:42:54,387
The first demonstrations we had
were just a handfuI of people.
687
00:42:54,796 --> 00:42:57,162
In fact, when Dr. King himself went to jail...
688
00:42:57,231 --> 00:42:59,597
...only 55 people would go with him.
689
00:42:59,734 --> 00:43:02,635
So, when young people today ask me;
690
00:43:02,703 --> 00:43:06,799
"When are we going to be able to
get together like you all were in the '60s?"
691
00:43:06,874 --> 00:43:08,899
Nobody was together in the '60s.
692
00:43:09,143 --> 00:43:11,873
It was a small group of dedicated people...
693
00:43:12,647 --> 00:43:13,807
...who got it started.
694
00:43:14,048 --> 00:43:15,538
Then the kids took it over.
695
00:43:15,950 --> 00:43:17,508
In 1963...
696
00:43:18,152 --> 00:43:22,213
...I was directing the movement
in Mississippi.
697
00:43:23,658 --> 00:43:26,320
The Southern Christian
Leadership Conference in Greenwood.
698
00:43:26,727 --> 00:43:29,560
Dr. King, Abernathy
and Shuttlesworth and these guys...
699
00:43:29,664 --> 00:43:33,293
...were trying to get adults,
and they'd gotten about as many adults...
700
00:43:33,401 --> 00:43:35,995
...so he called me on the phone
and asked me...
701
00:43:36,070 --> 00:43:40,200
...would I come to Birmingham
and help to organize the people...
702
00:43:40,308 --> 00:43:41,741
...the young people.
703
00:43:41,809 --> 00:43:44,175
So I went to Birmingham...
704
00:43:44,278 --> 00:43:46,473
...to help organize the people...
705
00:43:46,547 --> 00:43:48,981
...and involve the young people
in the movement.
706
00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:52,110
James Bevel, principally...
707
00:43:53,287 --> 00:43:57,883
...and Andy Young and Dorothy Cotten,
were given the task...
708
00:43:58,192 --> 00:44:02,288
...to get the college students of Miles
and another junior college there.
709
00:44:02,530 --> 00:44:06,398
Bevel, sort of on his own,
went down to Parker High School.
710
00:44:06,601 --> 00:44:10,230
And the teachers told us
they couldn't go and get in the movement.
711
00:44:10,504 --> 00:44:14,406
They locked the gates. That was it.
712
00:44:15,076 --> 00:44:17,943
They locked the gates,
but the kids climbed them...
713
00:44:18,012 --> 00:44:19,479
...and got in the movement.
714
00:44:19,981 --> 00:44:23,348
When the high school kids got in,
the junior high school kids...
715
00:44:23,417 --> 00:44:26,318
It was like an avalanche.
Then the little kids wanted to come.
716
00:44:26,387 --> 00:44:28,753
We got word that
the children wanted to march.
717
00:44:28,856 --> 00:44:31,381
My thing was like,
we have two colleges here.
718
00:44:31,525 --> 00:44:33,652
We have Payne, we have Miles College...
719
00:44:33,728 --> 00:44:35,958
...and you got all these 12 high schools.
720
00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:39,261
All these young people are
as big as their moms and dads...
721
00:44:39,333 --> 00:44:43,565
...and they don't have to pay rent,
house notes, car notes.
722
00:44:43,738 --> 00:44:46,104
So if they were involved...
723
00:44:46,841 --> 00:44:48,365
...by the thousands...
724
00:44:48,776 --> 00:44:52,303
...then you'd have the whole
African-American community involved.
725
00:44:52,513 --> 00:44:55,880
I don't know of any precedent in history...
726
00:44:56,050 --> 00:45:00,714
...for using children that young
in a political campaign like this.
727
00:45:00,922 --> 00:45:04,483
There was tremendous,
ferocious opposition...
728
00:45:04,558 --> 00:45:06,082
...to what they decided to do.
729
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,525
As one teacher said...
730
00:45:07,995 --> 00:45:11,396
...she turned her back
to write on the board and said;
731
00:45:11,465 --> 00:45:14,764
"I hope when I turn around
that everyone isn't gone. "
732
00:45:15,870 --> 00:45:18,532
And she turned around,
and they all were gone.
733
00:45:18,606 --> 00:45:21,837
First day, I'll never forget at home...
734
00:45:21,909 --> 00:45:24,070
...turning on the TV news...
735
00:45:24,145 --> 00:45:27,444
...and there were children,
high school kids...
736
00:45:27,815 --> 00:45:29,749
...marching in lines of two.
737
00:45:30,217 --> 00:45:31,912
And it just hit me.
738
00:45:32,219 --> 00:45:35,313
"God," I said, "I've got to go, Mama!"
739
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:40,219
I could have been surprised
if I had joined up with the SCLC group...
740
00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:42,819
...civil rights group.
741
00:45:42,897 --> 00:45:45,058
But they couldn't find me...
742
00:45:45,132 --> 00:45:47,327
...as they didn't know I'd let my children...
743
00:45:47,435 --> 00:45:49,562
...go out. I had eighth grade.
744
00:45:49,637 --> 00:45:52,470
I had about five or six young boys...
745
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:55,907
...who every time they would have
a march, they would go.
746
00:45:56,243 --> 00:45:57,835
And I let them go.
747
00:45:57,912 --> 00:46:00,506
Even little ones. You'd say,
"Where have you been?
748
00:46:00,581 --> 00:46:01,707
"I've been to jail.
749
00:46:02,049 --> 00:46:04,108
"What did you go to jail for?
750
00:46:04,251 --> 00:46:06,742
"See, I've been going to jail for freedom. "
751
00:46:06,854 --> 00:46:08,845
It was one of the most...
752
00:46:10,458 --> 00:46:12,858
...frightening experiences of my life.
753
00:46:13,494 --> 00:46:14,893
It was very scary...
754
00:46:14,962 --> 00:46:16,759
...and they put us in this place.
755
00:46:16,864 --> 00:46:21,301
The place was with the inside bedrooms
already taken...
756
00:46:21,369 --> 00:46:23,701
...so we were on the floor for five days...
757
00:46:23,771 --> 00:46:26,171
...right there on the floor, right in the hall.
758
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:28,740
They purposely put us in...
759
00:46:28,809 --> 00:46:32,711
...with kids who were criminals...
760
00:46:33,647 --> 00:46:35,547
...little boys who were real hard.
761
00:46:35,616 --> 00:46:39,052
I was not real hard.
I was definitely scared.
762
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,951
I want equal rights.
763
00:46:41,422 --> 00:46:43,253
I want equal rights.
764
00:46:46,060 --> 00:46:47,493
Just like everybody else.
765
00:46:47,561 --> 00:46:50,257
I want my freedom
just like everybody else.
766
00:46:51,365 --> 00:46:54,801
I want to be treated just
like everybody else is treated.
767
00:46:54,969 --> 00:46:56,436
When we got out...
768
00:46:57,171 --> 00:46:58,763
...and I saw my parents...
769
00:46:59,106 --> 00:47:01,097
...all I wanted to do was hug them.
770
00:47:01,175 --> 00:47:02,665
I'll never forget...
771
00:47:02,743 --> 00:47:04,074
...they were both crying.
772
00:47:04,145 --> 00:47:05,612
I'm trying to be like a man.
773
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:07,874
I've been in jail now for five days.
774
00:47:08,082 --> 00:47:10,710
I'm wanting to cry,
but I'm trying to be real hard.
775
00:47:10,785 --> 00:47:12,548
You know, I've been there.
776
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,017
It was a badge of courage.
777
00:47:14,088 --> 00:47:17,819
It was incredible,
and they were so proud of me.
778
00:47:18,526 --> 00:47:21,586
Denise came in one day,
and she was saying...
779
00:47:21,695 --> 00:47:24,459
...to my cousin, Helen and me...
780
00:47:24,532 --> 00:47:26,261
...if she could go march.
781
00:47:26,534 --> 00:47:30,436
We said, "No, you're too little. "
She said, "You're not too little. "
782
00:47:30,504 --> 00:47:33,029
I don't know how
we conveniently got out of that...
783
00:47:33,107 --> 00:47:36,941
...and didn't make ourselves look bad...
784
00:47:37,044 --> 00:47:39,512
...which is what we felt internally.
785
00:47:39,580 --> 00:47:41,411
Here's an infant saying...
786
00:47:41,549 --> 00:47:44,382
...you can do something about a situation,
and you refuse.
787
00:47:56,430 --> 00:47:59,422
Kelly Ingram Park on May 3
was the turning point...
788
00:47:59,500 --> 00:48:01,127
...in the Birmingham movement.
789
00:48:02,503 --> 00:48:04,733
It was a hot day.
790
00:48:05,706 --> 00:48:08,641
It was 90 plus and humid in Birmingham.
791
00:48:08,809 --> 00:48:11,073
These firemen had been out there
for four hours...
792
00:48:11,312 --> 00:48:15,772
...waiting for something to happen
that wasn't apparently going to happen.
793
00:48:16,951 --> 00:48:21,183
And the crowd again had gathered,
and somebody threw a brick.
794
00:48:23,591 --> 00:48:26,983
The firemen, in their frustration...
795
00:48:27,684 --> 00:48:30,312
...they turned that water cannon on.
796
00:48:30,987 --> 00:48:33,251
It was absolute helter-skelter.
797
00:48:33,323 --> 00:48:36,258
You know how you take blowers
and blow leaves and things.
798
00:48:36,326 --> 00:48:37,793
This is how folks were.
799
00:48:37,861 --> 00:48:41,194
We were rolling past them,
trying to grab anything.
800
00:48:41,264 --> 00:48:43,425
The dogs were barking, biting...
801
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:45,658
...boys were clubbing...
802
00:48:45,735 --> 00:48:48,898
The little kids on the inside,
for the most part, were protected.
803
00:48:49,005 --> 00:48:52,702
I don't know if anybody has ever
even thought about the pressure...
804
00:48:52,943 --> 00:48:54,001
...of one of those hoses.
805
00:48:54,077 --> 00:48:55,305
You could just feel it sting.
806
00:48:55,378 --> 00:48:57,938
It was like being whipped,
with a whip or something.
807
00:48:58,248 --> 00:49:02,241
It just sort of hit me in the face
and went this way and took my hair out.
808
00:49:02,419 --> 00:49:04,546
I have always been afraid of dogs.
809
00:49:04,955 --> 00:49:09,654
To have the police department
have dogs on us...
810
00:49:09,726 --> 00:49:13,958
There were people being bitten
by dogs as we were trying to run away...
811
00:49:14,097 --> 00:49:17,362
...from the dogs...
812
00:49:17,467 --> 00:49:18,900
...and the fire hoses.
813
00:49:18,969 --> 00:49:21,267
Children were being
washed down the street.
814
00:49:21,338 --> 00:49:23,704
It caught me right on 17th Street...
815
00:49:23,773 --> 00:49:26,173
...in front of a cafe called...
816
00:49:26,242 --> 00:49:27,573
...Zanzibar.
817
00:49:27,877 --> 00:49:29,868
That's when it knocked me down.
818
00:49:29,946 --> 00:49:31,971
There was so much hate here then.
819
00:49:32,048 --> 00:49:34,016
They said, "Get this lady to a hospital."
820
00:49:34,117 --> 00:49:37,018
I said, "No. I'm afraid to go
to the hospital."
821
00:49:37,087 --> 00:49:38,748
I didn't know where they'd take me...
822
00:49:38,822 --> 00:49:40,687
...so I just suffered the consequences.
823
00:49:40,757 --> 00:49:43,988
Yes, I will say this,
I'm going to be frank and tell you the truth.
824
00:49:44,060 --> 00:49:46,858
With the hose and the dogs and the folks...
825
00:49:46,930 --> 00:49:48,192
...I was really afraid.
826
00:49:48,264 --> 00:49:51,427
But I respected
what they were marching for...
827
00:49:51,634 --> 00:49:54,194
...so I didn't march.
828
00:49:54,637 --> 00:49:57,162
I was in Princeton, New Jersey, when...
829
00:49:57,540 --> 00:50:00,907
...the fire hoses and the marches
in Kelly Ingram Park...
830
00:50:00,977 --> 00:50:02,842
...and near the church, were held.
831
00:50:03,380 --> 00:50:05,940
They were on the front page
of the New York Times.
832
00:50:06,116 --> 00:50:10,018
I recall having to explain
to my professors...
833
00:50:10,086 --> 00:50:11,417
...and to my friends...
834
00:50:11,488 --> 00:50:13,718
...every single day that...
835
00:50:14,124 --> 00:50:17,753
...all of Birmingham
hadn't erupted in violence.
836
00:50:18,428 --> 00:50:19,759
And in fact...
837
00:50:19,996 --> 00:50:22,055
...it was awfully hard to explain how...
838
00:50:22,198 --> 00:50:26,225
...I didn't think the fire hoses were
the worst thing that could've happened...
839
00:50:26,503 --> 00:50:28,596
...certainly compared to firearms...
840
00:50:29,806 --> 00:50:33,867
...certainly compared to killing and beating.
841
00:50:34,277 --> 00:50:35,801
It was devastating...
842
00:50:36,112 --> 00:50:39,081
...because it was just so ugly...
843
00:50:39,215 --> 00:50:41,615
...the way they were doing young people.
844
00:50:41,851 --> 00:50:45,446
To think a grown man would sit up
and put a fire hose on a child.
845
00:50:45,588 --> 00:50:49,217
It was awfuI, and I really didn't like it.
846
00:50:49,759 --> 00:50:54,025
As an individual there was nothing
I could do but pray, and I did a lot of that.
847
00:50:54,664 --> 00:50:58,293
I think about the people
who went through all that...
848
00:50:58,501 --> 00:51:00,196
...back in those days.
849
00:51:00,603 --> 00:51:03,299
We did not give them credit for doing it...
850
00:51:03,540 --> 00:51:05,474
...because they fought my battle.
851
00:51:05,575 --> 00:51:08,048
I should have been out there.
852
00:51:09,950 --> 00:51:14,114
...and particularly in the year 1963
when this took place...
853
00:51:14,721 --> 00:51:18,953
...had become the focal point
of the struggle and the South.
854
00:51:19,392 --> 00:51:22,953
It had been sort of a violent year.
855
00:51:24,331 --> 00:51:26,993
In June, Medgar Evers had been killed.
856
00:51:27,067 --> 00:51:30,036
But it was also a year
of ecstasy and triumph.
857
00:51:31,171 --> 00:51:33,071
On August 28...
858
00:51:33,139 --> 00:51:36,074
...a quarter of a million people
assembled in Washington D.C.
859
00:51:37,110 --> 00:51:39,601
And those of us in the movement...
860
00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:42,910
...were almost as surprised
as we were delighted...
861
00:51:43,049 --> 00:51:45,176
...to see this magnificent thing happen.
862
00:51:45,285 --> 00:51:47,310
We felt, at the march...
863
00:51:47,621 --> 00:51:51,421
...that at last we had
the attention of America...
864
00:51:51,725 --> 00:51:54,421
...the Congress, the President,
and the world.
865
00:52:02,035 --> 00:52:03,263
I was angry with Chris...
866
00:52:03,370 --> 00:52:04,496
...during that time...
867
00:52:04,571 --> 00:52:07,972
...because he'd done something
that I didn't think was kosher.
868
00:52:11,244 --> 00:52:14,236
I'm walking around glaring at him,
both of them...
869
00:52:14,314 --> 00:52:16,339
...because seemingly in my mind...
870
00:52:16,416 --> 00:52:19,613
...they were, you know, infringing on me.
871
00:52:19,886 --> 00:52:21,717
My wife, I think, had eaten.
872
00:52:21,788 --> 00:52:25,417
When I came home, evidently,
she didn't have what I wanted to eat.
873
00:52:26,793 --> 00:52:29,626
I decided I wanted a broiled chicken.
874
00:52:31,464 --> 00:52:34,900
So I proceeded to get a chicken,
cut up a chicken...
875
00:52:37,037 --> 00:52:39,870
Denise came up there, where I was.
876
00:52:39,939 --> 00:52:42,203
She jumped up on the kitchen counter.
877
00:52:42,575 --> 00:52:45,100
Her mother came in the kitchen
and looked at her...
878
00:52:45,211 --> 00:52:47,076
...and she looked at me...
879
00:52:47,180 --> 00:52:49,978
...and I didn't tell her to get off the counter.
880
00:52:50,383 --> 00:52:53,284
"Daddy didn't tell me to move,
'bye to you. "
881
00:52:53,386 --> 00:52:56,014
I just thought that sitting on the counter...
882
00:52:56,089 --> 00:52:59,024
...in the kitchen,
where you're going to put food...
883
00:52:59,459 --> 00:53:01,086
No. That's a no-no.
884
00:53:01,361 --> 00:53:03,420
So I let her sit up there.
885
00:53:04,331 --> 00:53:07,858
I finished cutting up the chicken,
cleaned it, seasoned it...
886
00:53:08,001 --> 00:53:10,561
...proceeded to broil it, did broil it.
887
00:53:10,637 --> 00:53:12,901
Then we ate the chicken, had a good time.
888
00:53:12,972 --> 00:53:13,996
To me...
889
00:53:14,074 --> 00:53:18,010
...and I've often referred to it
with my wife in that tone...
890
00:53:18,611 --> 00:53:21,079
...it was like the Last Supper...
891
00:53:21,915 --> 00:53:24,941
...as I imagine it would've been
with Christ and his disciples...
892
00:53:25,051 --> 00:53:26,416
...and I'm serious about this.
893
00:53:26,820 --> 00:53:30,347
Two weeks
before the church was bombed...
894
00:53:30,657 --> 00:53:32,522
...my mother was in the kitchen.
895
00:53:32,592 --> 00:53:35,789
We were getting ready for church
and all those things.
896
00:53:35,895 --> 00:53:37,954
She was standing there at the sink.
897
00:53:38,064 --> 00:53:42,057
Then she turned around and said to Ray,
my oldest brother:
898
00:53:43,103 --> 00:53:46,266
"I know you've been going out there
leading those demonstrations...
899
00:53:46,339 --> 00:53:49,274
"... leaving school
and going down to Birmingham.
900
00:53:49,876 --> 00:53:51,343
"I know you've been doing that. "
901
00:53:51,411 --> 00:53:53,902
He didn't admit it, but he wouldn't deny it.
902
00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:56,915
She said, "Mama just wants
to ask you this:
903
00:53:57,684 --> 00:54:00,346
"Don't go back
into 16th Street Baptist Church.
904
00:54:01,187 --> 00:54:04,156
"God has shown me something terrible
is going to happen there. "
905
00:54:04,357 --> 00:54:07,451
I dreamed, seemingly out
of a clear blue sky...
906
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,154
...that there was going to be something...
907
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:12,824
...terrible happening at 16th Street...
908
00:54:13,032 --> 00:54:15,330
...and I saw a lot of blood.
909
00:54:16,302 --> 00:54:19,169
I mentioned it at the breakfast table.
910
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,332
It was on a Saturday morning.
911
00:54:21,674 --> 00:54:24,507
I said, "Please, I don't want any of you... "
912
00:54:24,577 --> 00:54:27,137
I said, "Ray, I don't want you...
913
00:54:27,213 --> 00:54:30,478
"... nowhere near
16th Street Baptist Church. "
914
00:54:31,951 --> 00:54:33,043
Ray went, "Ma!"
915
00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:36,919
Dad said, "Esther, don't tell the children
superstitious stuff like that. "
916
00:54:36,990 --> 00:54:40,949
And she said, "No, God has shown me.
I dreamed it last night.
917
00:54:41,027 --> 00:54:43,825
"It was just blood coming
all out of that church.
918
00:54:43,897 --> 00:54:45,728
"Blood just pouring out of the church.
919
00:54:45,832 --> 00:54:47,527
"I don't want any of my blood spilt. "
920
00:54:47,634 --> 00:54:49,499
We were all looking like...
921
00:54:49,569 --> 00:54:50,661
And then...
922
00:54:50,937 --> 00:54:54,395
...I guess, since Ray didn't respond
as we normally respond...
923
00:54:54,474 --> 00:54:55,964
...when Mama demands something...
924
00:54:56,042 --> 00:54:57,236
We weren't from a family...
925
00:54:57,310 --> 00:55:00,438
...where your parents ask you
to do something, they told you...
926
00:55:00,513 --> 00:55:01,605
He didn't respond...
927
00:55:01,681 --> 00:55:04,343
...and next thing, she just fell on her knees.
928
00:55:04,451 --> 00:55:06,476
And I started crying...
929
00:55:06,553 --> 00:55:09,954
...because it seemed so real to me
in the dream.
930
00:55:11,558 --> 00:55:15,688
When this happened
I think we all thought about it.
931
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:47,125
That Sunday was so dramatic,
traumatic, rather...
932
00:55:47,193 --> 00:55:50,720
...until it's almost hard to talk about it.
933
00:55:53,399 --> 00:55:56,960
We were at our various homes...
934
00:55:57,036 --> 00:55:58,469
...getting ready for church.
935
00:55:59,005 --> 00:56:01,667
This was the beginning...
936
00:56:02,208 --> 00:56:04,642
...of a monthly youth day service.
937
00:56:04,711 --> 00:56:08,772
The children were real excited
to have this opportunity to...
938
00:56:09,115 --> 00:56:12,278
...take part in the leadership
of the church that day.
939
00:56:12,752 --> 00:56:16,017
When Addie and Sarah
and I started to walk to church...
940
00:56:16,623 --> 00:56:20,184
It usually takes about...
941
00:56:23,062 --> 00:56:26,520
...maybe 15 or 20 minutes
to get to church...
942
00:56:28,268 --> 00:56:31,669
That particular Sunday
it took a little bit longer, because...
943
00:56:32,605 --> 00:56:37,269
...we played a game with my purse.
944
00:56:37,343 --> 00:56:40,210
Like I said, it was shaped like a football.
945
00:56:40,580 --> 00:56:43,048
It was just a regular Sunday morning.
946
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:46,712
Light breakfast and she left.
947
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,918
She always went by my parents
on Sunday morning.
948
00:56:49,989 --> 00:56:51,286
That particular Sunday...
949
00:56:51,357 --> 00:56:54,451
...I was supposed to go
to Sunday school with Carole.
950
00:56:55,361 --> 00:56:57,226
I was running a little late...
951
00:56:57,297 --> 00:57:00,323
...and I didn't get an opportunity to go.
952
00:57:00,433 --> 00:57:02,298
We had the best time.
953
00:57:02,368 --> 00:57:06,828
We were laughing so hard
and playing so hard...
954
00:57:06,940 --> 00:57:10,899
...we just did it all the way to church,
just throwing it back and forth.
955
00:57:12,011 --> 00:57:16,448
When we got to church,
I went down in the basement with them.
956
00:57:17,050 --> 00:57:20,383
I didn't want to go up because
we had to get ourselves fixed up...
957
00:57:20,453 --> 00:57:22,546
...because we played
and messed ourselves up.
958
00:57:22,655 --> 00:57:25,749
We'd been out to my sister's house
the night before...
959
00:57:26,359 --> 00:57:28,122
...the afternoon before...
960
00:57:29,495 --> 00:57:30,928
...and we didn't get to church...
961
00:57:30,997 --> 00:57:35,400
...exactly on time to hear
all of what the preliminaries were...
962
00:57:35,468 --> 00:57:36,935
...for the Sunday school.
963
00:57:37,003 --> 00:57:39,938
She had this pretty white dress.
964
00:57:40,106 --> 00:57:43,507
She had new black shoes...
965
00:57:43,676 --> 00:57:45,735
...her first little heels, they were...
966
00:57:45,812 --> 00:57:48,747
...not high heels but the first heels
she had worn.
967
00:57:49,015 --> 00:57:50,607
I remember telling them:
968
00:57:50,817 --> 00:57:55,049
"Make sure when you get through
fixing your hair, you go upstairs...
969
00:57:55,121 --> 00:57:58,784
"... because we're already late
and we don't want to get any later. "
970
00:57:59,125 --> 00:58:00,922
Thirty-three years ago today...
971
00:58:01,194 --> 00:58:04,095
...I left home, coming to Sunday school...
972
00:58:04,297 --> 00:58:06,094
...to this, my church, 16th Street.
973
00:58:06,332 --> 00:58:09,392
I had just walked up the steps...
974
00:58:09,802 --> 00:58:11,895
...and walked out into the sanctuary.
975
00:58:11,971 --> 00:58:14,599
The phone rang before
I walked out into the sanctuary.
976
00:58:14,674 --> 00:58:17,643
This was the second phone call
I had taken that morning.
977
00:58:17,710 --> 00:58:20,406
The caller on the other end said,
"Three minutes. "
978
00:58:20,913 --> 00:58:25,009
Being 14 years old,
I had no idea that it meant anything.
979
00:58:25,151 --> 00:58:28,484
When I walked into the church,
it was like, wow!
980
00:58:28,721 --> 00:58:30,655
The first thing I said was:
981
00:58:30,857 --> 00:58:32,722
"It looks strange in here. "
982
00:58:32,825 --> 00:58:34,884
The feeling that I felt.
983
00:58:34,961 --> 00:58:37,191
I even noticed it. It was like...
984
00:58:37,296 --> 00:58:40,891
I've never felt this in this church before.
It was a different feeling.
985
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,865
I was one of the Sunday school teachers.
986
00:58:42,935 --> 00:58:45,665
My class was downstairs
in the basement...
987
00:58:46,372 --> 00:58:48,499
...near where the bombing took place.
988
00:58:48,708 --> 00:58:52,644
I think I was the last person in the family
to see Denise that morning.
989
00:58:52,879 --> 00:58:54,938
I went on upstairs to my class...
990
00:58:55,014 --> 00:58:58,245
...in the choir loft, and she went
downstairs in the basement.
991
00:58:58,484 --> 00:59:00,816
Denise came to my room...
992
00:59:02,522 --> 00:59:04,513
...and I said, "What are you doing in here?"
993
00:59:04,590 --> 00:59:08,856
She said, "I came to borrow your comb,
your compact and a quarter. "
994
00:59:08,928 --> 00:59:10,691
I said, "Don't you have any of that?
995
00:59:10,797 --> 00:59:12,697
"No. " Her mother wouldn't give it to her.
996
00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:15,646
So she borrowed my comb,
my compact and a quarter.
997
00:59:15,780 --> 00:59:18,442
The next thing I heard was this loud blast...
998
00:59:18,883 --> 00:59:21,579
...and my first words were,
"My baby, my baby. "
999
00:59:21,819 --> 00:59:25,778
It was just a loud noise and
the building shook, and I just remember...
1000
00:59:26,424 --> 00:59:29,689
...something hitting me in my head,
a piece of the light fixture...
1001
00:59:29,794 --> 00:59:31,819
...and just screams...
1002
00:59:33,197 --> 00:59:36,030
I just remember seeing
black soot everywhere.
1003
00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:40,264
My first reaction was I thought
Russia had sent a sputnik bomb.
1004
00:59:40,605 --> 00:59:43,369
I remember reading the paper
at that time, about Russia...
1005
00:59:43,441 --> 00:59:46,569
...and about bombs and things like that.
1006
00:59:47,278 --> 00:59:49,246
I didn't think they'd bomb that church.
1007
00:59:49,380 --> 00:59:52,781
When I heard the noise from my church...
1008
00:59:53,017 --> 00:59:57,681
...it sounded a little like thunder,
it was an overcast day, but...
1009
00:59:58,422 --> 01:00:01,653
I turned to my brother and said:
"Was that thunder?" He said, "No. "
1010
01:00:01,859 --> 01:00:04,054
My husband had carried...
1011
01:00:04,295 --> 01:00:08,425
...Carole to Sunday school and I was
dressing for church when I heard the bomb.
1012
01:00:08,866 --> 01:00:11,960
I think I was in the bathroom
putting on make-up.
1013
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:14,861
My parents and I,
my sisters and brothers...
1014
01:00:14,972 --> 01:00:18,738
...we were all sitting down
at the table eating breakfast.
1015
01:00:19,410 --> 01:00:20,672
The whole house shook.
1016
01:00:20,811 --> 01:00:25,111
Birmingham was always known for
foundries and blasting and things like this.
1017
01:00:25,216 --> 01:00:27,309
When you hear it, sometimes you think...
1018
01:00:27,418 --> 01:00:30,546
...that it's one of the foundries
blasting coal, iron or whatever.
1019
01:00:30,688 --> 01:00:32,383
We didn't want to think the worst.
1020
01:00:32,623 --> 01:00:36,218
Somehow or another
somebody had told our pastor...
1021
01:00:36,494 --> 01:00:38,121
...that 16th Street had been bombed.
1022
01:00:38,229 --> 01:00:42,859
We got the children together
and told them to hold hands.
1023
01:00:42,933 --> 01:00:45,231
We went outside,
and when we got outside...
1024
01:00:47,004 --> 01:00:50,167
...all we could see were policemen.
1025
01:00:50,374 --> 01:00:52,604
When we got on the outside...
1026
01:00:53,577 --> 01:00:58,071
...going down the steps, it was like,
I ran into Junie.
1027
01:00:59,316 --> 01:01:00,943
And when I ran into Junie...
1028
01:01:01,118 --> 01:01:05,248
...we were walking back and forth
and finally it struck us that...
1029
01:01:06,023 --> 01:01:08,014
...we didn't see Addie and Sarah.
1030
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:12,596
You can imagine just how terrible
it was for everybody.
1031
01:01:13,064 --> 01:01:16,625
People were digging in the ashes,
among the rubble...
1032
01:01:16,701 --> 01:01:19,067
...trying to find their loved ones.
1033
01:01:19,603 --> 01:01:23,369
In a few minutes my wife's cousin...
1034
01:01:23,708 --> 01:01:26,700
...the one we call Mama Helen
who lives up the street there...
1035
01:01:27,712 --> 01:01:30,306
...she came by in her car and she said:
1036
01:01:30,681 --> 01:01:33,081
"Come on, go with me.
We can't find Denise. "
1037
01:01:33,184 --> 01:01:34,845
I looked everywhere.
1038
01:01:34,952 --> 01:01:38,683
All over the church, upstairs,
downstairs and everywhere.
1039
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:41,090
And I couldn't find my children.
1040
01:01:41,525 --> 01:01:44,016
I immediately reached down and pulled...
1041
01:01:44,095 --> 01:01:47,929
...one of the large concrete blocks away.
1042
01:01:48,632 --> 01:01:51,396
And there was one of the girls' head...
1043
01:01:51,635 --> 01:01:53,102
...I had discovered.
1044
01:01:53,571 --> 01:01:56,131
God, when I found out that my classmate...
1045
01:01:56,574 --> 01:02:00,874
...Cynthia, was one of them,
the first thought was...
1046
01:02:01,011 --> 01:02:04,469
...that I saw her
as we were leaving school...
1047
01:02:05,316 --> 01:02:08,808
...that Friday, and we said to each other:
1048
01:02:08,919 --> 01:02:10,546
"See you Monday. "
1049
01:02:12,323 --> 01:02:16,555
She said something, I don't remember,
but something to make me laugh.
1050
01:02:17,695 --> 01:02:20,186
We said, just rushing, "See you Monday. "
1051
01:02:20,297 --> 01:02:24,290
But I remember so vividly
looking into her eyes.
1052
01:02:24,635 --> 01:02:27,729
When did you find out that Carole
had been in the blast?
1053
01:02:28,272 --> 01:02:32,936
When my husband and my mother
and all came in to tell me.
1054
01:02:35,579 --> 01:02:37,376
Oh, boy.
1055
01:02:39,583 --> 01:02:42,143
It was just... It was awfuI.
1056
01:02:43,187 --> 01:02:46,520
They told me, let's see...
1057
01:02:47,258 --> 01:02:50,989
My husband told me first,
because he got here first.
1058
01:02:53,531 --> 01:02:55,965
He was upset.
1059
01:02:56,901 --> 01:03:00,962
He was the kind of gentleman...
1060
01:03:01,038 --> 01:03:04,565
...he was kind, nice.
1061
01:03:05,342 --> 01:03:09,039
I guess, he just didn't believe
anybody would do anything like that.
1062
01:03:09,146 --> 01:03:13,845
He died not realizing
that people do things like that.
1063
01:03:15,152 --> 01:03:17,313
Someone came and told me that...
1064
01:03:18,689 --> 01:03:20,247
Miss...
1065
01:03:24,628 --> 01:03:27,324
Mrs. Arnold carried me to the hospital
so I could see her.
1066
01:03:28,132 --> 01:03:32,125
When we got to University Hospital
and started searching, we ran upon...
1067
01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:35,300
...another one of my wife's cousins.
1068
01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:40,600
His name is Cleveland and
we called him Brother Cleveland.
1069
01:03:41,111 --> 01:03:45,411
At any rate,
he helped us search around and we found...
1070
01:03:45,749 --> 01:03:48,343
...the room that they were using
as a morgue.
1071
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,520
In there were all four of the girls
Iying up there.
1072
01:03:54,525 --> 01:03:57,255
Then there was Denise among them with...
1073
01:03:57,695 --> 01:03:59,925
...this piece of concrete...
1074
01:04:00,064 --> 01:04:03,227
...mortar-like rock, embedded in her head.
1075
01:04:12,509 --> 01:04:14,204
When I got there...
1076
01:04:16,647 --> 01:04:19,411
...my cousin, Henry, was there.
1077
01:04:20,117 --> 01:04:21,812
He was very angry.
1078
01:04:23,621 --> 01:04:26,818
He was using words
that let you know he was angry, too.
1079
01:04:27,124 --> 01:04:30,890
And the lady wanted to know who I was.
1080
01:04:31,195 --> 01:04:33,789
I told her that I heard that my daughter...
1081
01:04:33,964 --> 01:04:36,933
...Denise McNair, had been killed.
1082
01:04:37,001 --> 01:04:40,630
She said, "You're Maxine. "
I got so angry with her!
1083
01:04:40,771 --> 01:04:44,002
How dare she call me Maxine?
She wasn't a friend of mine.
1084
01:04:44,475 --> 01:04:46,238
She didn't know me from Adam.
1085
01:04:46,877 --> 01:04:50,335
And here she's going to take the liberty
of calling me by my name.
1086
01:04:50,581 --> 01:04:52,572
I said, "I'm Mrs. Chris McNair.
1087
01:04:52,650 --> 01:04:54,880
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry," was her comment.
1088
01:04:55,019 --> 01:04:58,250
But it was too late, she'd done it.
That old mentality:
1089
01:04:58,355 --> 01:05:01,290
"You're nothing and I'm something,"
came out.
1090
01:05:01,692 --> 01:05:04,320
She went in and then she let me go in
and see her.
1091
01:05:04,395 --> 01:05:07,455
She said, "But your husband
has already identified her. "
1092
01:05:07,631 --> 01:05:10,065
But that was my privilege to...
1093
01:05:10,701 --> 01:05:13,431
...identify my child, to me.
1094
01:05:14,238 --> 01:05:16,729
I didn't think anybody
should take it away from me...
1095
01:05:17,074 --> 01:05:20,942
...and I'm sure I said as much, because
by that time, I was kind of ticked off.
1096
01:05:21,712 --> 01:05:23,373
Okay...
1097
01:05:23,714 --> 01:05:25,545
...they carried me on
to my mother's house.
1098
01:05:25,616 --> 01:05:29,143
When I got in there,
I couldn't stop hollering.
1099
01:05:29,687 --> 01:05:32,155
I couldn't stop screaming.
1100
01:05:34,825 --> 01:05:38,022
I can just see myself,
sitting in the chair, just...
1101
01:05:38,929 --> 01:05:40,794
...being so upset...
1102
01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:46,199
...in a place that I wanted to rub
and I couldn't rub it.
1103
01:05:48,906 --> 01:05:52,433
I later found out that I was
the only parent that was...
1104
01:05:53,043 --> 01:05:54,874
...at church that day.
1105
01:06:03,821 --> 01:06:07,484
I'm quite sure that my parents...
1106
01:06:08,525 --> 01:06:11,688
...they identified a body but...
1107
01:06:12,429 --> 01:06:15,364
...all I heard was that my sister, Junie...
1108
01:06:15,566 --> 01:06:17,500
...had identified the body.
1109
01:06:17,935 --> 01:06:21,701
Because it had somewhat
of an affect left upon her.
1110
01:06:22,006 --> 01:06:26,409
It had a really kind of a nervous-like,
you know.
1111
01:06:27,277 --> 01:06:28,972
It really affected her.
1112
01:06:29,947 --> 01:06:31,847
It was just a devastating...
1113
01:06:32,683 --> 01:06:34,082
...experience.
1114
01:06:36,387 --> 01:06:37,718
I...
1115
01:06:40,024 --> 01:06:42,993
...experienced a lot of panic attacks, too.
1116
01:06:43,427 --> 01:06:45,190
Once upon a time I was...
1117
01:06:46,563 --> 01:06:49,555
...real afraid of being on the...
1118
01:06:49,933 --> 01:06:52,527
...outside, as well as the inside.
1119
01:06:54,605 --> 01:06:55,833
Of what?
1120
01:06:56,673 --> 01:07:01,372
Of anywhere. Because the bombing
happened in a church where...
1121
01:07:02,312 --> 01:07:06,305
...you normally would feel safe,
or you'd think you were safe.
1122
01:07:07,885 --> 01:07:11,656
And of all places, you know, a church.
1123
01:07:12,223 --> 01:07:13,690
That Sunday...
1124
01:07:14,326 --> 01:07:18,786
...when the little girls were killed,
in the church...
1125
01:07:20,231 --> 01:07:24,429
...my former husband and I, Jim Bevel...
1126
01:07:25,971 --> 01:07:28,064
...were in Edenton, North Carolina.
1127
01:07:29,908 --> 01:07:34,038
The Southern Christian Leadership
Conference was carrying out a...
1128
01:07:34,212 --> 01:07:36,680
...voter registration project.
1129
01:07:36,881 --> 01:07:39,247
I was scheduled to preach
that Sunday morning.
1130
01:07:39,684 --> 01:07:43,950
When the church blew up,
we heard about it before I got to church.
1131
01:07:44,522 --> 01:07:47,150
And we felt that...
1132
01:07:47,592 --> 01:07:50,390
...in order to respect ourselves...
1133
01:07:50,695 --> 01:07:53,323
...as an adult man and woman...
1134
01:07:53,832 --> 01:07:57,233
...we could not let little girls be killed.
1135
01:07:57,535 --> 01:08:00,436
It was like somebody was hitting me
with hot steel.
1136
01:08:00,839 --> 01:08:03,637
And I felt personally insulted,
because it was like...
1137
01:08:03,742 --> 01:08:06,210
They knew these children
was using that church...
1138
01:08:06,544 --> 01:08:10,674
...and they really felt insulted because
the children have defeated them, right?
1139
01:08:10,882 --> 01:08:14,784
They're coming back on the children to say:
"We will teach you a lesson. "
1140
01:08:14,853 --> 01:08:16,946
My point is,
"No, we will teach you a lesson. "
1141
01:08:17,088 --> 01:08:20,080
We felt that there were two things
that we could do.
1142
01:08:20,992 --> 01:08:24,553
The first option is that we...
1143
01:08:24,763 --> 01:08:27,664
...felt confident that we could find out...
1144
01:08:28,066 --> 01:08:31,832
...who was responsible
for having killed those girls...
1145
01:08:32,337 --> 01:08:36,034
...and we could make certain
that they got killed.
1146
01:08:37,475 --> 01:08:39,033
That was option one.
1147
01:08:40,311 --> 01:08:41,608
I said:
1148
01:08:41,713 --> 01:08:45,149
"I'm going to have to get out
of the movement and kill these guys.
1149
01:08:45,316 --> 01:08:47,113
"We are not going to let guys...
1150
01:08:47,218 --> 01:08:50,119
"... come in here, blow up our churches
and kill our children.
1151
01:08:50,221 --> 01:08:51,688
"We're not going to do it. "
1152
01:08:52,157 --> 01:08:55,251
The second option was...
1153
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,257
...that if blacks in Alabama
got the right to vote...
1154
01:08:59,931 --> 01:09:01,558
...they could protect their children.
1155
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,097
That's where...
1156
01:09:03,368 --> 01:09:04,960
...this bombing of the church...
1157
01:09:05,270 --> 01:09:09,070
...is where the Selma Right to Vote
movement was born.
1158
01:09:10,542 --> 01:09:12,567
I remember that Sunday very clearly.
1159
01:09:12,711 --> 01:09:14,872
I'm not sure where I went to church.
1160
01:09:15,613 --> 01:09:18,707
As I think about it now
I probably took that Sunday off.
1161
01:09:18,817 --> 01:09:21,377
But I know I got an urgent call
from Dr. King.
1162
01:09:22,153 --> 01:09:24,621
He told me they'd bombed
the 16th Street Church...
1163
01:09:24,723 --> 01:09:28,955
...and four little girls were dead.
We had to go to Birmingham right away.
1164
01:09:30,195 --> 01:09:33,858
I don't know where we met, but we
had a great deal of conversation about it.
1165
01:09:33,932 --> 01:09:38,494
Dr. King said, he began to bemoan the fact,
"They're going to blame me. "
1166
01:09:39,804 --> 01:09:43,001
He was supersensitive
about things like this.
1167
01:09:43,074 --> 01:09:46,043
He said, "People will say,
if we'd never come to Birmingham...
1168
01:09:46,211 --> 01:09:49,703
"We got to go.
I dread going, but we've got to go. "
1169
01:09:50,181 --> 01:09:53,878
We got ourselves together and went over
to see the families and whatnot.
1170
01:09:54,018 --> 01:09:58,614
Dr. King came by the parsonage
where I was living...
1171
01:09:58,990 --> 01:10:00,981
...the early part of that evening...
1172
01:10:01,826 --> 01:10:05,728
...and talked with me about
the funeral arrangements. I told him...
1173
01:10:06,965 --> 01:10:10,526
...that we tried to get a mass funeral but...
1174
01:10:10,902 --> 01:10:13,996
...there was one family
that wanted to hold out.
1175
01:10:14,105 --> 01:10:16,938
I tell you, we got up Monday morning...
1176
01:10:17,041 --> 01:10:19,373
...and started making plans.
1177
01:10:19,844 --> 01:10:21,869
Planned everything because...
1178
01:10:22,747 --> 01:10:26,239
...we had no idea they were planning
a joint funeral until...
1179
01:10:26,484 --> 01:10:28,611
...late Monday evening when...
1180
01:10:29,287 --> 01:10:32,279
...King and Cross...
1181
01:10:32,857 --> 01:10:36,418
...Abernathy, Gardner, Smith...
1182
01:10:36,761 --> 01:10:38,353
...there were seven of them...
1183
01:10:38,563 --> 01:10:41,396
...Shuttlesworth, that came out.
1184
01:10:41,599 --> 01:10:43,965
Dr. King talked as he...
1185
01:10:44,068 --> 01:10:47,435
...tried to persuade her to change her mind.
1186
01:10:48,406 --> 01:10:50,670
She said, "I told Rev. Cross...
1187
01:10:50,942 --> 01:10:54,139
"... what my intentions are
and that's what I want to do. "
1188
01:10:54,813 --> 01:10:56,007
So...
1189
01:10:57,248 --> 01:10:59,011
...he had prayer with her...
1190
01:10:59,751 --> 01:11:01,844
...and then we left.
1191
01:11:02,687 --> 01:11:06,088
I don't know what we would've done
if we'd known early on Monday...
1192
01:11:06,157 --> 01:11:08,523
...that they were planning a mass funeral.
1193
01:11:08,660 --> 01:11:11,925
I don't know what the decision
would have been, then.
1194
01:11:13,231 --> 01:11:14,357
But...
1195
01:11:14,499 --> 01:11:18,094
...we went about the business during
that Monday and we just let it stay.
1196
01:11:23,074 --> 01:11:26,532
We went downtown and we picked out...
1197
01:11:26,978 --> 01:11:28,639
Her favorite color was yellow.
1198
01:11:28,980 --> 01:11:30,607
So we went to Parisian's...
1199
01:11:30,982 --> 01:11:34,679
...and we got her a yellow dress.
1200
01:11:35,053 --> 01:11:38,454
And the lady knew me because
I had been shopping there before.
1201
01:11:39,357 --> 01:11:43,521
Then she was saying
how sorry she was, and...
1202
01:11:44,295 --> 01:11:46,160
...she sold me the dress...
1203
01:11:46,464 --> 01:11:49,399
...and the socks and whatever else
I bought that day.
1204
01:11:49,868 --> 01:11:52,598
We carried it on over to the funeral home...
1205
01:11:52,871 --> 01:11:55,431
...and put it on her.
1206
01:11:57,208 --> 01:12:01,008
The man told me that they weren't
going to be able to do a good job...
1207
01:12:01,312 --> 01:12:03,246
...with fixing her up because...
1208
01:12:04,148 --> 01:12:07,208
...the brick that we found, that we have...
1209
01:12:07,719 --> 01:12:09,846
...was embedded in her head and it had...
1210
01:12:10,121 --> 01:12:12,885
...done something to her skin on this side.
1211
01:12:12,991 --> 01:12:14,982
He said, "But we will make it...
1212
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:18,451
"We will make it look
the very best that we can.
1213
01:12:18,663 --> 01:12:20,221
"We won't disappoint you. "
1214
01:12:20,398 --> 01:12:23,799
I had trust and faith in him
because he was a friend of mine.
1215
01:12:25,203 --> 01:12:27,763
And sure enough, they pulled the hair...
1216
01:12:28,506 --> 01:12:31,964
...around and fixed her up,
and she looked nice.
1217
01:12:33,544 --> 01:12:37,480
Carole's funeral was a very quiet funeral.
1218
01:12:37,715 --> 01:12:41,515
I mean, just a normal, sad funeral.
1219
01:12:41,953 --> 01:12:46,287
Whereas, the next day I mean,
it was more spectacular...
1220
01:12:47,025 --> 01:12:50,586
...with the news
and they were there from everywhere.
1221
01:13:07,512 --> 01:13:11,642
What I really remember most was
when we got out of the car to the church...
1222
01:13:12,317 --> 01:13:14,717
...I remember looking up
and there were cameras...
1223
01:13:14,819 --> 01:13:16,650
...and people in the trees.
1224
01:13:17,555 --> 01:13:19,989
The family could hardly get in the church.
1225
01:13:20,525 --> 01:13:23,688
Most kids didn't go to the funeral.
School was going on...
1226
01:13:25,463 --> 01:13:27,727
But I remember specifically...
1227
01:13:27,932 --> 01:13:30,196
...I'd worn a shirt and tie that day.
1228
01:13:30,635 --> 01:13:32,569
And George Bell, my principal...
1229
01:13:33,438 --> 01:13:34,996
...the famous George Bell...
1230
01:13:36,007 --> 01:13:38,874
...as I was leaving,
I got a note from my mother...
1231
01:13:40,545 --> 01:13:43,036
...came up to me and took his tie off.
1232
01:13:43,147 --> 01:13:47,277
He said, "Son, you want to wear
dark ties to funerals. "
1233
01:13:48,019 --> 01:13:50,044
He said, "You're representing us. "
1234
01:13:59,964 --> 01:14:03,331
Then, inside the service...
1235
01:14:06,337 --> 01:14:09,329
...Dr. King spoke.
1236
01:14:11,642 --> 01:14:16,079
And we tried to not cry and listen...
1237
01:14:16,848 --> 01:14:20,249
...but there was not a dry eye in the house.
1238
01:14:21,185 --> 01:14:22,482
And...
1239
01:14:23,321 --> 01:14:26,552
...his speaking calmed us...
1240
01:14:27,492 --> 01:14:30,484
...and I think the crying helped.
1241
01:14:30,828 --> 01:14:34,229
I remember Martin Luther King
when he was there.
1242
01:14:34,966 --> 01:14:38,527
But I can't remember
everything that he said...
1243
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:41,363
...because you are so hurt...
1244
01:14:42,006 --> 01:14:44,736
...you're seeing three caskets...
1245
01:14:45,109 --> 01:14:47,441
...around the front part of the church.
1246
01:14:47,578 --> 01:14:51,014
And you know your sister
is in one of those caskets.
1247
01:14:51,349 --> 01:14:54,910
You can't really listen.
The only thing you can do is feel...
1248
01:14:55,186 --> 01:14:58,212
...and there was just nothing
but hurt that I felt.
1249
01:14:59,157 --> 01:15:03,355
And at some point he said something
about life is hard...
1250
01:15:03,461 --> 01:15:05,622
...or life is as hard as steel.
1251
01:15:06,130 --> 01:15:08,928
Things you remember; The three coffins...
1252
01:15:09,434 --> 01:15:13,836
...this group of hundreds
of black and white ministers...
1253
01:15:13,970 --> 01:15:16,803
...and others, famous people.
1254
01:15:17,573 --> 01:15:20,974
"But life is as hard as steel."
1255
01:15:21,210 --> 01:15:25,044
Not an exact quote, but that was the point.
I'll never forget that.
1256
01:15:26,115 --> 01:15:29,016
The service was sad, but it wasn't morbid.
1257
01:15:29,652 --> 01:15:32,985
It was a tender moment, but
at the same time, it was a sad moment.
1258
01:15:33,089 --> 01:15:34,784
Because the realization was...
1259
01:15:34,891 --> 01:15:38,088
...these little girls would never get
a chance to realize life.
1260
01:15:38,361 --> 01:15:42,195
Because of some person's decision
to make...
1261
01:15:42,498 --> 01:15:46,867
...them, maybe the victims,
of why the movement should stop.
1262
01:15:54,610 --> 01:15:58,671
I remember coming down the steps
at Addie's and Denise's funeral...
1263
01:15:59,115 --> 01:16:00,844
...and letting go of the casket.
1264
01:16:01,150 --> 01:16:03,050
I don't know, I just lost something.
1265
01:16:03,452 --> 01:16:05,647
This was one of my best friends in life...
1266
01:16:05,855 --> 01:16:09,086
...and I had never lost a best friend before.
1267
01:16:09,392 --> 01:16:11,883
And James Stewart grabbed me
and held me, man...
1268
01:16:11,961 --> 01:16:14,395
...because I lost complete...
1269
01:16:14,730 --> 01:16:17,062
...faith in humanity and didn't know it.
1270
01:16:17,166 --> 01:16:20,897
I remember being very, very, uptight...
1271
01:16:22,505 --> 01:16:23,665
...and...
1272
01:16:27,510 --> 01:16:30,411
...just overwhelmed by something.
1273
01:16:31,814 --> 01:16:36,251
The next thing I knew, somebody was
saying, "You passed out at the cemetery. "
1274
01:16:37,753 --> 01:16:40,017
"Dear Mr. and Mrs. McNair;
1275
01:16:40,356 --> 01:16:42,756
"Here in the midst
of the Christmas season...
1276
01:16:43,125 --> 01:16:45,787
"... my thoughts have turned to you.
1277
01:16:46,195 --> 01:16:48,857
"This has been a difficult year for you...
1278
01:16:49,265 --> 01:16:53,793
"... the coming of Christmas when
the family bonds are more closely knit...
1279
01:16:54,470 --> 01:16:59,066
"... makes the loss you have sustained
even more painfuI.
1280
01:17:00,376 --> 01:17:02,367
"Yet, with the sad memories...
1281
01:17:02,778 --> 01:17:05,008
"... there are the memories
of the good days...
1282
01:17:05,081 --> 01:17:08,539
"... when Denise was with you
and your family.
1283
01:17:09,552 --> 01:17:12,988
"As you know,
many of us are giving up our Christmas...
1284
01:17:13,389 --> 01:17:17,883
"... or severely limiting them as a memorial
for the great sacrifices...
1285
01:17:17,994 --> 01:17:20,861
"... made this year in the freedom struggle.
1286
01:17:21,898 --> 01:17:25,356
"I know there is nothing that can
compensate for the vacant place...
1287
01:17:25,468 --> 01:17:27,265
"... in your family circle.
1288
01:17:27,536 --> 01:17:31,996
"But we did want to share a part
of our sacrifice, this year, with you.
1289
01:17:32,909 --> 01:17:37,642
"Perhaps, there is some small thing
dear to your heart...
1290
01:17:38,047 --> 01:17:40,743
"... in which this gift can play a part.
1291
01:17:41,150 --> 01:17:44,449
"Sincerely yours, Martin Luther King, Jr. "
1292
01:17:45,955 --> 01:17:48,890
This was photographed, Mother's Day '62.
1293
01:17:49,225 --> 01:17:51,785
We were on our way to church,
Sunday school...
1294
01:17:52,261 --> 01:17:55,094
...and he snapped this shot.
She said, "Wait, Daddy...
1295
01:17:55,231 --> 01:17:57,096
"... I'm not ready, you're too fast. "
1296
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:59,129
He snapped it anyway.
1297
01:17:59,235 --> 01:18:03,137
We were running late
so he didn't do it over, that I recall.
1298
01:18:04,106 --> 01:18:06,233
These are some of her coloring books and...
1299
01:18:06,375 --> 01:18:09,435
...things that we found in a trunk...
1300
01:18:09,545 --> 01:18:13,311
...that were musty and old
and tired looking.
1301
01:18:14,216 --> 01:18:16,776
She loved dolls and toys...
1302
01:18:17,353 --> 01:18:19,253
...and if she could make a...
1303
01:18:19,822 --> 01:18:23,622
...tacky little something, that I called tacky,
that she didn't call tacky...
1304
01:18:24,293 --> 01:18:26,591
...doll clothes, piggy banks...
1305
01:18:27,029 --> 01:18:28,326
...jewelry...
1306
01:18:29,198 --> 01:18:32,065
...pocketbooks, things she did in school.
1307
01:18:32,301 --> 01:18:36,567
This was taken one Sunday in Tupelo,
Mississippi, where we lived.
1308
01:18:37,139 --> 01:18:41,303
We had come home from church
and she had gotten tired of staying...
1309
01:18:41,410 --> 01:18:45,210
...because we would go for Sunday school
and it seemed like an all day thing.
1310
01:18:45,548 --> 01:18:48,676
And she went to sleep,
and she was wrinkled.
1311
01:18:48,784 --> 01:18:51,753
Her daddy liked the little outfit she had on,
so he said:
1312
01:18:51,854 --> 01:18:54,015
"I want a picture. " I said, "Let me press it.
1313
01:18:54,090 --> 01:18:55,955
"No, I want it just like it is. "
1314
01:18:56,425 --> 01:19:00,987
This was the strange brick that was...
1315
01:19:01,230 --> 01:19:03,130
...that penetrated her skull...
1316
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:07,567
...that a friend of mine
at the cemetery saved...
1317
01:19:08,304 --> 01:19:11,535
...and gave to my mother,
and my mother some years later...
1318
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:13,005
...gave to me.
1319
01:19:14,777 --> 01:19:16,642
When I was going to school...
1320
01:19:17,380 --> 01:19:21,316
...before, after she had died,
when I was going to school...
1321
01:19:21,417 --> 01:19:23,510
...it was like, you know how you just...
1322
01:19:23,819 --> 01:19:27,118
...remember such a good time
you used to have?
1323
01:19:27,656 --> 01:19:29,487
You know you'll have a good time...
1324
01:19:29,592 --> 01:19:32,152
...at home because you're going to get
with your sister.
1325
01:19:32,228 --> 01:19:36,028
That was the type of relationship we had.
I knew that when I got home...
1326
01:19:36,399 --> 01:19:39,425
...me and Addie was going to have us
a good time playing.
1327
01:19:39,568 --> 01:19:42,469
I rushed home that evening from school...
1328
01:19:42,705 --> 01:19:46,072
...thinking that I was rushing home
to get with Addie.
1329
01:19:46,809 --> 01:19:48,936
I had remembered that Addie was dead.
1330
01:19:49,545 --> 01:19:52,981
That thing hurt me.
It hurt me so deep until...
1331
01:20:04,660 --> 01:20:08,994
It's not easy, because we had put so much
of this behind us...
1332
01:20:10,399 --> 01:20:12,162
...and we don't remember.
1333
01:20:21,677 --> 01:20:24,145
We don't remember anymore,
you know what I'm saying?
1334
01:20:24,413 --> 01:20:26,779
But you know how you felt.
1335
01:20:27,416 --> 01:20:30,977
You may not remember details or what...
1336
01:20:32,354 --> 01:20:35,255
...step by step, what I had to go through...
1337
01:20:35,558 --> 01:20:38,288
...but I do know it affected me...
1338
01:20:39,795 --> 01:20:41,023
...so bad.
1339
01:20:44,667 --> 01:20:48,797
I don't think the white community
really understood...
1340
01:20:48,938 --> 01:20:52,430
...the depth of the problem
and the depths of the hate...
1341
01:20:52,708 --> 01:20:56,940
...of the Klan and its friends in the South...
1342
01:20:57,279 --> 01:20:59,474
...in the North, too, for that matter...
1343
01:20:59,715 --> 01:21:02,616
...until that incredibly...
1344
01:21:02,751 --> 01:21:05,743
...mean-spirited, terrible crime...
1345
01:21:05,821 --> 01:21:09,313
...of blowing up kids
in a Sunday school basement.
1346
01:21:10,292 --> 01:21:13,989
Up to that time,
I think it was looked at primarily...
1347
01:21:14,363 --> 01:21:16,331
...as a...
1348
01:21:16,732 --> 01:21:19,963
...an interesting kind
of a social development...
1349
01:21:20,035 --> 01:21:23,994
...that would come along somehow
or other in the generations to come.
1350
01:21:24,440 --> 01:21:28,501
At that moment that bomb went off,
and those four little girls were...
1351
01:21:28,644 --> 01:21:32,978
...blasted and buried in the debris
of the church...
1352
01:21:34,049 --> 01:21:37,746
...America understood the real nature
of the hate...
1353
01:21:38,087 --> 01:21:41,079
...that was preventing integration,
particularly in the South...
1354
01:21:41,223 --> 01:21:43,487
...but also throughout America.
1355
01:21:43,726 --> 01:21:45,489
This was the awakening.
1356
01:21:45,761 --> 01:21:47,319
I think...
1357
01:21:48,264 --> 01:21:50,926
...that incident, as tragic as it was...
1358
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,197
...convinced white America more deeply
than anything else...
1359
01:21:54,336 --> 01:21:57,737
...why there had to be a Birmingham
confrontation and why...
1360
01:21:58,607 --> 01:22:01,735
...there needed to be a Martin Luther King
on the issue of race.
1361
01:22:02,578 --> 01:22:05,411
The bombing of the churches...
1362
01:22:06,248 --> 01:22:10,378
...in Birmingham, with the death
of the little girls...
1363
01:22:11,253 --> 01:22:15,747
...was just an act of terrorism
in my judgment, and those are the...
1364
01:22:16,392 --> 01:22:20,453
...many ways, as we know today,
the hardest ones to resolve...
1365
01:22:20,563 --> 01:22:24,795
...and the cruelest,
because they don't care who it is...
1366
01:22:25,201 --> 01:22:27,999
...that gets killed, as long as...
1367
01:22:28,571 --> 01:22:31,199
...there's some symbolism
in what they're doing.
1368
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:33,369
It just seemed pointless.
1369
01:22:33,709 --> 01:22:37,167
It wasn't going to stop the movement.
1370
01:22:39,248 --> 01:22:42,945
It just took the lives of four beautiful
innocent little girls.
1371
01:22:44,220 --> 01:22:48,281
Four lovely children...
1372
01:22:50,059 --> 01:22:53,586
...today could have been
Spellman graduates...
1373
01:22:53,796 --> 01:22:55,525
...Harvard graduates.
1374
01:22:55,864 --> 01:22:58,856
Could have been doing things
in their community.
1375
01:22:59,068 --> 01:23:00,558
Could have been...
1376
01:23:00,803 --> 01:23:03,931
...wonderful doctors, lawyers.
1377
01:23:04,540 --> 01:23:07,737
Or just plain hard working people.
1378
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:09,709
But human beings.
1379
01:23:09,945 --> 01:23:13,108
The bad news is
four innocent babies were killed.
1380
01:23:13,482 --> 01:23:17,578
The good news is we were able
to transform a crucifixion...
1381
01:23:18,220 --> 01:23:19,687
...into a resurrection.
1382
01:23:19,755 --> 01:23:23,350
New life, new hope,
new energy and more determination.
1383
01:23:24,293 --> 01:23:27,319
120 years of history suddenly destroyed.
1384
01:23:27,396 --> 01:23:31,230
Five churches with black congregations
have burned in Alabama this year.
1385
01:23:32,268 --> 01:23:36,864
This is one of dozens of southern
black churches that burned.
1386
01:23:37,106 --> 01:23:39,301
Last week somebody torched this church...
1387
01:23:39,375 --> 01:23:43,669
President Clinton wants to know
if the fires are racially motivated.
1388
01:23:44,670 --> 01:23:45,932
What's painful to me
as we look at the story today...
1389
01:23:46,772 --> 01:23:48,399
...they're burning churches again.
1390
01:23:49,976 --> 01:23:52,706
More than anything
that really bothered me...
1391
01:23:52,812 --> 01:23:57,078
...was when I found out how many
churches had burned since 1994.
1392
01:23:57,383 --> 01:24:00,181
Over 22 churches in the South
had burned down.
1393
01:24:00,419 --> 01:24:04,014
People kept saying it was not a conspiracy
and things like that...
1394
01:24:04,156 --> 01:24:07,751
...but the thing that I believe is
that it's a conspiracy of the mind.
1395
01:24:08,027 --> 01:24:11,428
Once you burn one down, other people
are going to burn others down.
1396
01:24:11,764 --> 01:24:13,254
This was true...
1397
01:24:13,599 --> 01:24:16,466
...after the Civil War
when the Ku Klux Klan was organized.
1398
01:24:16,535 --> 01:24:19,902
They, too, burned black churches.
They had a symbol where they set...
1399
01:24:20,139 --> 01:24:22,505
...the cross of Jesus on fire.
1400
01:24:22,642 --> 01:24:25,304
They're still doing it,
but the result will be the same.
1401
01:24:25,511 --> 01:24:28,844
We're going to rebuild those churches
and make them big and stronger.
1402
01:24:29,048 --> 01:24:30,948
The message has to be clear.
1403
01:24:31,317 --> 01:24:35,151
You can burn them down, but not faster
than we can build them up again.
1404
01:24:36,222 --> 01:24:39,419
Four young black girls were killed
in the 1963 bombing...
1405
01:24:39,492 --> 01:24:42,086
...of the 16th Street Baptist Church
in Birmingham.
1406
01:24:42,328 --> 01:24:44,694
It was one of many bombings
near Birmingham...
1407
01:24:44,764 --> 01:24:48,359
...during the late '50s and early '60s,
and it was never solved.
1408
01:24:48,734 --> 01:24:51,532
Last month a grand jury began
a new investigation...
1409
01:24:51,637 --> 01:24:53,867
...and yesterday indicted two men.
1410
01:24:54,140 --> 01:24:58,167
One was Robert Chambliss of Birmingham,
a former Ku Klux Klan member.
1411
01:24:58,377 --> 01:25:01,369
Chambliss, jailed last night,
is being held without bond...
1412
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:03,675
...on four counts of first degree murder.
1413
01:25:03,916 --> 01:25:06,248
I think Bob Chambliss was responsible...
1414
01:25:06,619 --> 01:25:08,416
...for more evil than any other...
1415
01:25:09,622 --> 01:25:10,987
...human being...
1416
01:25:12,858 --> 01:25:15,383
...in the history of this county,
maybe this state.
1417
01:25:16,028 --> 01:25:18,656
I won't say he's the most evil man
because I can't judge.
1418
01:25:18,731 --> 01:25:22,531
But he was responsible for more evil
because he, by himself...
1419
01:25:22,735 --> 01:25:26,364
...was responsible for nearly
all the bombings in Birmingham...
1420
01:25:26,472 --> 01:25:29,566
...during the '40s, '50s, '60s.
1421
01:25:30,409 --> 01:25:32,673
His nickname was Dynamite Bob and...
1422
01:25:33,813 --> 01:25:38,011
...instead of being scared or worried
or concerned, he was proud of it.
1423
01:25:38,284 --> 01:25:41,947
He didn't think that the police
would ever try him for anything.
1424
01:25:42,054 --> 01:25:45,023
He wore it like a badge of honor.
Dynamite Bob.
1425
01:25:45,458 --> 01:25:49,326
I saw Chambliss standing on the corner...
1426
01:25:49,862 --> 01:25:53,491
...watching the excitement down
at the 16th Street Baptist Church.
1427
01:25:53,966 --> 01:25:55,456
I remember saying to myself:
1428
01:25:55,634 --> 01:25:58,660
"He's the firebug that's come back
to watch the fire. "
1429
01:25:59,205 --> 01:26:01,435
This is the court room where...
1430
01:26:02,742 --> 01:26:04,937
...Bob Chambliss was tried for...
1431
01:26:05,111 --> 01:26:08,171
...killing four little girls
at the 16th Street Church bombing.
1432
01:26:10,015 --> 01:26:14,509
The court room is arranged
exactly as it was at the trial.
1433
01:26:16,622 --> 01:26:18,453
Bob Chambliss sat here.
1434
01:26:19,291 --> 01:26:20,815
I sat here.
1435
01:26:22,228 --> 01:26:25,527
Assistant Attorney General John Young
sat here...
1436
01:26:25,965 --> 01:26:28,934
...and the Attorney General of Alabama,
Bill Baxley...
1437
01:26:29,168 --> 01:26:31,227
...sat there, during the prosecution.
1438
01:26:31,737 --> 01:26:34,570
Ever since the day it happened,
like I said, I had...
1439
01:26:36,575 --> 01:26:39,135
...hoped that some day
I could be a part of...
1440
01:26:39,345 --> 01:26:42,337
...solving or bringing the people
that did that to justice.
1441
01:26:42,782 --> 01:26:46,445
In fact, this never has been mentioned
before, but I got this record...
1442
01:26:46,519 --> 01:26:50,182
...shortly after that,
Joan Baez, who was one of my favorites.
1443
01:26:50,890 --> 01:26:54,121
And she had a song
called Birmingham Sunday.
1444
01:26:54,693 --> 01:26:57,821
And it mentioned four little girls and...
1445
01:26:58,364 --> 01:27:01,925
...almost every morning of my life...
1446
01:27:02,034 --> 01:27:04,935
...until I became Attorney General...
1447
01:27:05,304 --> 01:27:08,000
...I played that Joan Baez song
of Birmingham Sunday.
1448
01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:11,366
In Birmingham, Alabama,
the trial of Robert Chambliss...
1449
01:27:11,477 --> 01:27:15,004
...charged with the bombing
of a black church in 1963...
1450
01:27:15,147 --> 01:27:17,115
...four young girls were killed.
1451
01:27:17,316 --> 01:27:20,183
The defense finished today
and the case has gone to the jury.
1452
01:27:20,252 --> 01:27:22,220
In the FBI documents...
1453
01:27:23,556 --> 01:27:27,253
...that were submitted,
from the Birmingham Field Office...
1454
01:27:27,326 --> 01:27:30,489
...in 1964 and 1965, to J. Edgar Hoover...
1455
01:27:31,564 --> 01:27:35,227
...four men were identified as...
1456
01:27:35,568 --> 01:27:38,128
...suspects by the FBI.
1457
01:27:38,237 --> 01:27:40,330
According to the FBI, they had informers...
1458
01:27:40,406 --> 01:27:42,704
...who said they'd gone to the church
that night.
1459
01:27:42,775 --> 01:27:43,867
They were...
1460
01:27:44,810 --> 01:27:47,870
...Bob Chambliss, Tommy Blantin Jr...
1461
01:27:48,447 --> 01:27:50,938
...Bobby Frank Cherry and Herman Cash.
1462
01:27:52,218 --> 01:27:53,845
Of those four...
1463
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:56,618
...Baxley indicted only Chambliss...
1464
01:27:57,056 --> 01:27:59,923
...because he felt he could make
the strongest case there.
1465
01:28:00,359 --> 01:28:04,523
Still, by the time we got to trial
we had evidence that we couldn't use.
1466
01:28:04,663 --> 01:28:06,597
We had people who wouldn't testify.
1467
01:28:08,434 --> 01:28:10,493
It was an iffy case to win.
1468
01:28:13,105 --> 01:28:17,405
I felt like we might ought to wait
because I felt like there were people...
1469
01:28:17,643 --> 01:28:21,409
...that still might talk and I knew
that if we went to trial and lost...
1470
01:28:22,114 --> 01:28:25,709
...and the case was marginal,
then they'd never be solved.
1471
01:28:27,319 --> 01:28:30,652
I went to Chris McNair,
who, as I said, was a friend of mine and...
1472
01:28:31,190 --> 01:28:35,718
...I told him that we'd gotten
about as far as we could go.
1473
01:28:35,828 --> 01:28:39,559
And I said, "Chris, what would be your
desire as one of the...
1474
01:28:40,432 --> 01:28:42,957
"... the victims, as the father of Denise?
1475
01:28:43,769 --> 01:28:47,830
"Would you want us to go ahead with
an iffy case and run the risk of losing, or...
1476
01:28:48,407 --> 01:28:50,705
"... wait and hope somebody'll
take it from here?"
1477
01:28:51,310 --> 01:28:54,370
Chris basically said if it wasn't done
in my term of office...
1478
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:56,448
...he didn't think it would ever get done.
1479
01:28:56,515 --> 01:29:00,212
Chris did one of the bravest things
that I've ever seen...
1480
01:29:00,452 --> 01:29:03,478
...anyone do, which was,
he went on the witness stand...
1481
01:29:04,957 --> 01:29:06,754
...and they brought him...
1482
01:29:08,827 --> 01:29:11,887
...the post-mortem photographs of Denise.
1483
01:29:13,799 --> 01:29:14,993
And...
1484
01:29:17,403 --> 01:29:21,430
...because they wanted the jury
to see the loss of a parent...
1485
01:29:24,643 --> 01:29:27,043
It's one of the most riveting moments...
1486
01:29:28,447 --> 01:29:31,473
...I've ever witnessed in a court room,
or anywhere...
1487
01:29:31,850 --> 01:29:35,183
...when the prosecutor presented...
1488
01:29:36,522 --> 01:29:39,889
...those photographs to Chris and...
1489
01:29:40,759 --> 01:29:42,624
...he didn't speak at first...
1490
01:29:45,864 --> 01:29:48,094
...held out to him and he...
1491
01:29:49,268 --> 01:29:52,669
...went back in his chair
as if he'd been hit...
1492
01:29:52,771 --> 01:29:55,672
...a blow in the chest with a heavy mallet.
1493
01:30:00,379 --> 01:30:03,507
With great calmness he said,
"That is my daughter...
1494
01:30:03,682 --> 01:30:05,582
"... that is Denise McNair. "
1495
01:30:07,519 --> 01:30:09,783
I think the big break came when...
1496
01:30:10,089 --> 01:30:12,683
...Chambliss' niece decided to talk.
1497
01:30:12,891 --> 01:30:17,055
I'll never forget, I was sitting right behind
Art Haines Jr., Art Haines Sr...
1498
01:30:17,229 --> 01:30:19,026
...and Chambliss is between them.
1499
01:30:19,131 --> 01:30:23,033
The old man looks over his shoulder
and sees this woman walking in...
1500
01:30:23,302 --> 01:30:26,169
...and he turns and his attorneys
lean over to him...
1501
01:30:26,238 --> 01:30:28,502
...and ask him, "Who is that?"
1502
01:30:29,441 --> 01:30:32,376
And it's clear they're totally unprepared
for this witness.
1503
01:30:32,845 --> 01:30:35,871
This small woman with a cross,
she was a Methodist minister...
1504
01:30:35,948 --> 01:30:39,543
...she walked up on that stand
and she put that man in prison that day.
1505
01:30:39,718 --> 01:30:42,653
The gist of her testimony was this...
1506
01:30:42,988 --> 01:30:44,080
...that...
1507
01:30:44,723 --> 01:30:48,022
...in the days leading up to that bombing...
1508
01:30:48,127 --> 01:30:50,823
...she opened a door
in the back of his house...
1509
01:30:51,063 --> 01:30:54,829
...and walked in and saw dynamite
and he berated her fiercely...
1510
01:30:55,734 --> 01:30:57,201
...for doing that.
1511
01:30:58,203 --> 01:30:59,568
And then...
1512
01:31:01,106 --> 01:31:05,042
...they were talking about the events
in Birmingham and he was enraged...
1513
01:31:05,144 --> 01:31:07,112
...because he had read...
1514
01:31:07,379 --> 01:31:10,780
...in the paper, I think,
about a black woman...
1515
01:31:10,949 --> 01:31:14,851
...or a white woman being assaulted
by a black man on a bus or something...
1516
01:31:15,020 --> 01:31:19,116
...I've forgotten the details.
This twisted him into a rage as she told it.
1517
01:31:19,358 --> 01:31:22,953
And he said,
"Wait until Sunday and they'll beg us...
1518
01:31:23,362 --> 01:31:25,277
"... to segregate again. "
1519
01:31:25,411 --> 01:31:27,106
The night before...
1520
01:31:29,548 --> 01:31:32,108
...we finished arguing the case to the jury.
1521
01:31:33,819 --> 01:31:37,380
I started the arguments after lunch...
1522
01:31:38,591 --> 01:31:40,582
...and I got back from lunch...
1523
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:43,190
...and one of my assistants, John Young...
1524
01:31:44,530 --> 01:31:48,557
...called me up there, I was trying to get
my thoughts collected for the argument.
1525
01:31:49,268 --> 01:31:52,066
I didn't want to be bothered.
He said, "Look at this. "
1526
01:31:52,805 --> 01:31:56,798
One of the exhibits was the death
certificate for Denise McNair.
1527
01:31:57,142 --> 01:32:00,509
He says, "Look at this. " That day...
1528
01:32:01,180 --> 01:32:02,875
...was Denise's birthday.
1529
01:32:03,015 --> 01:32:06,075
In my final argument, I closed by...
1530
01:32:06,719 --> 01:32:09,882
...telling him that
by some accident of fate...
1531
01:32:10,522 --> 01:32:13,150
...that this day was Denise's birthday.
1532
01:32:13,259 --> 01:32:17,195
Then I went in that had it not been
for this act that...
1533
01:32:17,529 --> 01:32:20,657
...there'd probably be a party
over at the McNair's house...
1534
01:32:20,933 --> 01:32:24,300
...maybe with some little grandchildren
and that bit.
1535
01:32:24,403 --> 01:32:27,600
I closed by saying, "Give Denise...
1536
01:32:28,073 --> 01:32:30,974
"... a birthday present,
bring her killer to justice. "
1537
01:32:31,243 --> 01:32:34,906
It wasn't too long, the next morning,
after the jury came back...
1538
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:37,913
...and I was on the phone
when the jury came in...
1539
01:32:38,350 --> 01:32:41,080
...and I heard the verdict of guilty.
1540
01:32:41,387 --> 01:32:43,446
I just said a prayer of thanksgiving.
1541
01:32:44,456 --> 01:32:46,117
Chambliss was...
1542
01:32:46,792 --> 01:32:50,626
...the most pathological racist
I have ever encountered.
1543
01:32:51,196 --> 01:32:54,393
He was a chilling character.
I visited him twice in prison.
1544
01:32:55,334 --> 01:32:57,768
He named to me four other people...
1545
01:32:58,170 --> 01:33:00,400
...that he said had planted the bomb.
1546
01:33:00,606 --> 01:33:04,565
They were people I knew by name
to be associated with the Klan.
1547
01:33:05,110 --> 01:33:07,635
He began to spring a long narrative.
1548
01:33:07,913 --> 01:33:09,972
Spin a long narrative about these people.
1549
01:33:10,082 --> 01:33:12,949
And he described how these people
by his allegation...
1550
01:33:13,419 --> 01:33:15,910
...had gone to a place
on 3rd Avenue West...
1551
01:33:16,055 --> 01:33:19,491
...and phoned in a phony bomb tip
to pull the police away.
1552
01:33:19,725 --> 01:33:23,286
Then he described the route they'd driven
to plant the bomb at the church.
1553
01:33:23,762 --> 01:33:27,163
He described how they'd driven over
by Birmingham Southern College...
1554
01:33:27,266 --> 01:33:31,168
...and Arcadelphia Road
and Findlay Avenue to escape.
1555
01:33:31,870 --> 01:33:34,896
I realized that as he was telling this...
1556
01:33:35,107 --> 01:33:38,474
...he was telling me how they planted
the bomb that night.
1557
01:33:52,624 --> 01:33:57,254
This is my favorite photograph of Denise
of all the many pictures I have of her.
1558
01:33:57,930 --> 01:34:00,899
And, well...
1559
01:34:01,166 --> 01:34:04,693
...I would say it's my favorite
because I think it's a good photograph.
1560
01:34:05,070 --> 01:34:07,834
I made it with her little Brownie camera.
1561
01:34:08,107 --> 01:34:12,203
And she was sitting in the bed
playing with her doll...
1562
01:34:12,678 --> 01:34:16,705
...and said, "Make a picture of me, Daddy. "
And I said, "With this camera?"
1563
01:34:16,815 --> 01:34:21,081
"With my camera. "
I did it, and it was a flashbulb.
1564
01:34:21,687 --> 01:34:24,952
So, the distance that I was from her...
1565
01:34:25,591 --> 01:34:27,115
...really was too close.
1566
01:34:27,192 --> 01:34:30,719
But I made the picture because I wanted
to fill the frame up pretty good.
1567
01:34:31,730 --> 01:34:33,595
When the film was developed...
1568
01:34:33,932 --> 01:34:37,095
...I saw that the negative
was way overexposed...
1569
01:34:37,202 --> 01:34:40,365
...and I never worried about it anymore
until after she died.
1570
01:34:40,506 --> 01:34:44,533
And I went back through the negatives
and I saw it again and I reduced it.
1571
01:34:44,743 --> 01:34:49,146
And then I made a print of it
and I realized what a jewel I had.
1572
01:34:49,448 --> 01:34:51,473
It wasn't God that brought
the bombing on.
1573
01:34:51,583 --> 01:34:53,517
A lot of people would think, well...
1574
01:34:53,786 --> 01:34:55,947
...God did this and God did that.
1575
01:34:56,054 --> 01:35:00,718
Just like it's a god of good,
we have a god of evil too.
1576
01:35:04,029 --> 01:35:06,327
It's no part of God, you know.
1577
01:35:06,465 --> 01:35:10,458
When we realize that God has
our best interests and he has a plan...
1578
01:35:11,437 --> 01:35:14,634
...for each one of us,
a plan that's good and not for evil...
1579
01:35:14,907 --> 01:35:18,206
...then we can begin to come
and receive healing.
1580
01:35:18,310 --> 01:35:22,076
A friend of mine who's a pastor said:
1581
01:35:22,714 --> 01:35:25,547
"God has a will for everything, Maxine.
1582
01:35:25,984 --> 01:35:29,784
"You just have to go with it
and you can't ask him why.
1583
01:35:30,422 --> 01:35:33,585
"Because he has a divine plan
and you know that.
1584
01:35:34,026 --> 01:35:35,687
"So don't ask.
1585
01:35:35,794 --> 01:35:39,560
"Just, go on and do
what you know is right to do. "
1586
01:35:40,632 --> 01:35:43,192
I worked hard not to feel...
1587
01:35:45,070 --> 01:35:47,095
...anger and hatred.
1588
01:35:48,440 --> 01:35:49,873
But...
1589
01:35:50,742 --> 01:35:52,300
...I did.
1590
01:35:53,345 --> 01:35:55,404
I just had to work on it.
1591
01:35:55,747 --> 01:35:57,908
And I had to kind of...
1592
01:35:59,117 --> 01:36:02,712
...keep my spirits up...
1593
01:36:03,055 --> 01:36:04,647
...so that I could...
1594
01:36:05,324 --> 01:36:07,952
...help my husband to keep his up.
1595
01:36:09,495 --> 01:36:12,658
And you know, the other folk around me.
1596
01:36:13,632 --> 01:36:15,623
And we had...
1597
01:36:16,668 --> 01:36:19,603
...good friends and family...
1598
01:36:20,539 --> 01:36:22,734
...who gave us a lot of support.
1599
01:36:23,809 --> 01:36:26,539
And I just had to work with it and pray.
1600
01:36:29,147 --> 01:36:32,810
Did it take a number of years for that
to happen, for you to arrive at that?
1601
01:36:33,085 --> 01:36:37,681
Yes, gradually it came about because...
1602
01:36:39,558 --> 01:36:42,550
...the hating of people wasn't going
to do me any good.
1603
01:36:42,794 --> 01:36:45,888
It would hurt me worse
than it would them.
1604
01:36:47,933 --> 01:36:51,061
I think I conquered it.
1605
01:36:51,737 --> 01:36:54,570
Every now and then
it still comes out, though.
1606
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:57,770
Not hatred, but anger.
1607
01:36:58,277 --> 01:37:00,074
How does it come out?
1608
01:37:01,413 --> 01:37:04,280
I don't know, different ways.
1609
01:37:05,884 --> 01:37:07,909
That's a tricky question.
1610
01:37:08,020 --> 01:37:10,716
I'm not trying to be Mike Wallace, now.
1611
01:37:11,924 --> 01:37:15,553
- Or Ed Bradley?
- Or Ed Bradley. I just want to...
1612
01:37:15,661 --> 01:37:18,596
I guess it's a question...
1613
01:37:18,797 --> 01:37:21,561
...that deserves an answer, I guess.
1614
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,498
You're asking me how does it come out?
1615
01:37:24,636 --> 01:37:28,595
Sometimes it comes out in ways
that I'm not even conscious of.
1616
01:37:28,974 --> 01:37:32,068
You know,
you're thinking about something and...
1617
01:37:33,045 --> 01:37:35,878
...having the wrong thoughts
and something comes up...
1618
01:37:35,981 --> 01:37:38,814
...and anger expresses itself.
1619
01:37:39,685 --> 01:37:44,384
But I've tried to just put all of that
behind me and go on and live.
1620
01:37:45,791 --> 01:37:49,989
Because in addition to that,
so many other things have happened.
1621
01:37:51,063 --> 01:37:55,762
My husband is gone,
my three brothers, my sister...
1622
01:37:56,535 --> 01:37:58,332
...my parents.
1623
01:38:00,205 --> 01:38:03,470
And of course, I still have my kids,
my family.
1624
01:38:03,909 --> 01:38:07,572
I have two. A son and a daughter.
1625
01:38:08,180 --> 01:38:10,205
Three grandchildren...
1626
01:38:10,315 --> 01:38:13,648
...and four great grandchildren.
1627
01:38:14,686 --> 01:38:18,955
So, I have something
to be thankful for after all.
140998
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