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This was one of the toughest stories
I've ever done.
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When there's a big train wreck, you want
to go look at it.
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This was a train wreck with five babies
lying on the tracks.
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Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates
called 911.
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Authorities rushed to her home only to
find her five young children dead.
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Andrea Yates confessing to police she
drowned her children one by one in the
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bathtub.
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Everyone was horrified. A mother killed
her kid?
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One of the most heart -wrenching
tragedies we have ever heard.
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How could a mother kill her own family?
Everyone was talking about it. Neighbors
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are understandably stunned.
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I fell for five other children.
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It really had to be a lot wrong with
that woman's head.
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They just immediately hated her. This
was a very evil and calculated woman.
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Andrea Yates, she faces capital murder
charges. If convicted, she could be put
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to death.
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The number one question is why, why,
why?
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I wanted to find out. What was the
motive?
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How could she do that?
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Is this an act that is literally beyond
our comprehension to understand or to
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deal with?
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When I got in that car, down to Houston,
I had no idea what I was going to say.
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One of the most heartbreaking tragedies
we have ever heard.
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Neighbors are understandably stunned.
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This mom's actions are a calculated act
of evil.
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These events are beyond our ability to
understand.
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Number one question, why, why, why?
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In 2001, I was a freelance writer
primarily concentrating on true crime.
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When I was researching my book Breaking
Point, I was starting to get hints that,
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no, she wasn't this horrible, evil
person that was on the news.
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Her neighbors were saying she was a
people pleaser and she was a caretaker.
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everyone said, what a great mom.
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I was getting a totally different
picture of Andrea.
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But I knew there was more.
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And I couldn't get the full story and it
was driving me crazy.
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I had a few confidential sources.
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And one of them told me about this
preacher.
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that Andrea was involved with, and they
called it a cult.
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And then one day I received these
letters.
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I was totally shocked. I didn't know
they were coming. And it was just sort
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mystery source that dropped them in the
mailbox to me.
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They were letters that Michael and
Rachel Warnecki wrote to Andrea.
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I know you're frustrated, Andrea.
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I know things are not the way you would
like them to be, but you can change
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them. There will be a day when it is too
late.
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Andrea was searching.
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Andrea was lonely.
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And through their letters back and
forth, Andrea could pour out her heart,
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loneliness.
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In 1999, Andrea wrote that Luke has been
born.
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And Rachel writes to Andrea, I have seen
many women just continually put off
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their salvation in Jesus.
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Then as the years slowly slipped by, so
does any hope for them to be truly
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saved.
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To read those letters was heartbreaking
because
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It was just nothing but how you're doing
wrong.
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And that there's not any hope for you.
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If you allow Satan to come in and still
be understanding, the consequences will
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be tragic.
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When I read those letters, you kind of
go, it all makes sense now.
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Why Andrea did this? What was going on
in her confused, mentally ill brain?
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Everything was pointing to this preacher
named Michael Warnecki.
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According to the author of this new
book, letters written to Andrea Yates by
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Reverend Warnecki and his wife may have
convinced Yates she was possessed by the
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devil. That is a way that God can use
this.
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And everything, loneliness, depression,
anything, was all separation with God in
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alignment with Satan.
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Basically, if you go to college... I was
watching the Debbie Duncan show, and
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there was this lady who wrote a book,
and she was talking about Michael being
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involved in the Yates family.
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How did they meet?
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When Rusty was a student.
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I learned that Rusty met Mike on campus
just like I did. He started
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corresponding just like I did.
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Here's the thing, I knew, you know, what
happened to me, you know, what he did
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to my life. But it just, when it hit me,
like, oh no, this Andrea Yates was so
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pressurized with that struggle for
salvation that she had to kill her kid.
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It has to look like, oh my God, how far
can this go?
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Michael Warnicke, fire and brimstone
preacher.
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The preacher is mimicking Satan himself.
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We watched the news coverage, like a
hawk. It was all through the frame of,
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these people are going to try to bring
Michael down.
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It's going to hell!
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It's going to the lake of fire!
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The man who's now under fire for what
some claim is destructive preaching.
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Michael reached out to my mom initially.
He was like, hey, how are you? It was
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like, oddly nice.
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It became pretty clear that Michael was
afraid that this would be pinned on him.
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They had many conversations about God,
Satan, and hell. He says, hey, they
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bring me in to testify.
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The defense is trying to make the case
that some of my teachings may have led
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Andrea to do this horrific crime.
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Michael Wernicke's influence is
dangerous.
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And then he was the most positive he's
ever been towards my mom.
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He said, God told me that you're pretty
close to getting into the kingdom of
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heaven. It was all damage control.
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He was scared.
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The time has come for Andrea Yates, the
so -called killer mom, to defend her
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actions in court.
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If convicted, she could be put to death.
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Yates attorney Wendell Odom with Yates
Health Records. Those records detail a
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history of deep depression, attempted
suicide, and psychosis.
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The Andrew Yates case was certainly the
most significant case I ever tried in my
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life. When I saw Andrew Yates for the
first time, it was one of the most
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shocking things I'd ever seen before.
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She had pupils that were giant and dark.
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She would jerk her head around and be
looking at something behind her.
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I've never seen anyone that mentally ill
before in my life. It was clear we need
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to start building an insanity defense.
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I thought the whole time,
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how ridiculous is this? Here's a loving
mother who would never, ever, ever
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have... harmed our children in any way
had she not been psychotic and the
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state's prosecuting her for capital
murder.
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The defendant has pleaded not guilty by
reason of insanity.
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Our strategy was to explain to the jury
that this was a psychotic episode
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created because of postpartum
depression.
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If this woman doesn't meet the test of
insanity in this state, then nobody
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Zero. We needed to explain that she knew
that what she was doing was illegal,
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but she didn't know that it was wrong.
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She may have believed because of her
mental depression that it was in the
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interest of the children to drown them
one after the other, but that's not the
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law in Texas.
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I'm asking you to vote in accordance
with the law and the evidence and find
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guilty as charged.
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And I appreciate your attention.
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The defense and prosecution have both
presented their arguments in the Yates
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case. After a month -long trial, the
court rests.
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Jurors face the task of deciding whether
this is a case of illness or intent.
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Andrea Yates' fate rests in their hands.
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All rise for the jury, please.
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We, the jury, find the defendant, Andrea
Pia Yates, guilty of capital murder.
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After only 35 minutes of deliberations,
jurors said Andrea Yates should get life
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in prison, not the death penalty.
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During the verdict, I didn't feel like I
could get up.
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She's my wife, who I loved.
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I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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During the trial, We didn't do as good a
job as we should have explaining her
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mental state, including her faith -based
beliefs, which were provided by
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Warneke.
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After the trial, I was thinking that
Michael Warneke is not being held
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accountable.
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He got a little bad press and all that,
but he just marched on. And no one knows
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the real story.
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He's getting away with it.
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I started thinking, what do I do? I felt
it was my social responsibility to
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inform who this man is. And maybe that
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could help a lot of people.
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So I called a local news studio and told
them that I have some information
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on this preacher.
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It's simple brainwashing. It starts off
very innocent.
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Your perceptions start.
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and pretty soon you're sucked into a
system.
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I knew that Mike would be pissed.
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I knew he would see me as a traitor,
that he would see me as a Judas.
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I didn't know how far he would take his
displeasure with me.
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Tonight, preacher Michael Warnecki is
responding to his critics and places the
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blame on Rusty Yates for his wife's
actions.
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What about Rusty? I have never heard him
once. I heard him blame the hospitals,
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the clinics, the postpartum depression,
the drugs. Could you ever stand up and
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say, I'm looking in the mirror and I'm
seeing the guy who's responsible.
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I should have shepherded my wife.
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They visited you in Florida. Right. And
you told them, according to Andrea
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Yates, that they were going.
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To hell. I was Andrea's friend. She had
just had this experience with watching a
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caterpillar become a butterfly.
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And she left there with a tremendous
hope that things were going to change in
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their life. She's a respected
psychiatrist who said flat out that
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never would have killed her children if
it were not for you. That is ridiculous.
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So if you go out and kill somebody,
that's my fault? If I know you, like
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other guy that was on there? You're
talking about David Della Isla. I knew
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guy, what, 15 years ago.
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For 15 minutes, I made a McDonald's
restaurant.
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Just the fact that he's saying that he
didn't really know me, just like, wow.
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He said you communicated with him
considerably. He has a stack of letters,
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said. Stack of letters? From you.
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I don't think a stack of letters. That
said that he was living a not righteous
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life. You're just a damn liar, you know?
Like, here's the stack. This is a
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correspondence of about 12 years.
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And so he knows me very well. That was
the lie. It's like, you know exactly who
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I am.
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When I found out that Mike had some sort
of relationship with Andrea Yates, I
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was dumbfounded, numb.
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It was heartbreaking.
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And I thought, I hope they're wrong
about Mike Warnacki.
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Mike Warnacki and I were born in Grand
Rapids, Michigan, on February 4, 1954,
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and we went through school together.
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Grand Rapids is also known as the city
of churches.
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Mike and I were both altar boys. His dad
was an usher in our church as a senior
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in high school. Mike was an excellent
football player.
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He was the typical gung -ho jock,
confident to the point of being cocky,
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being the center of attention.
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I was going to be the great charismatic
hot shot.
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Mike goes to Central Michigan on
scholarship, and if not for some bad
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have gone to the NFL.
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At this time, God had been dealing with
me. I began to read the Word.
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I began to just realize what it was to
follow Jesus Christ.
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He was all in as a football player.
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He was all in as an evangelical
preacher.
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He is everything to me.
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I'm totally committed to Him.
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He tried to get into different
seminaries, but he was rejected for
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fanatical, too earnest, too over the
top.
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I was offended by it at first, but I
didn't realize, yeah, that's exactly
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God wants me to be. And I began to
realize, no, this world belongs to
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totally contrary to what you see in the
demon dens, the vipers, the snake pits
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of today called churches.
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And so he was going to make his own way.
And he did wear that rejection as a
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badge of honor.
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In the early 1980s, Mike's profile
around town grew exponentially.
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I preached outside of football games,
basketball games, car races, baseball
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games, tracks, festivals, parades.
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God is going to destroy this earth and
all you righteous sinners.
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He would stand outside of churches on
Sunday morning and tell the churchgoers
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that they were going to hell. It was
totally aggressive, and it was
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I don't care no more about ministry,
about position, about reputation, about
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image, about what anybody says about me.
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He was scorned. He was ridiculed.
Probably everything he related to
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Jesus went through.
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In fact, all they say now is bad things.
You're off. You're cult. You're weird.
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For a while, that time, I started
working at the Grand Rapids Press as a
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reporter. So reporting on him
journalistically was awkward because we
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friends, and he's arrested various
times.
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Cops intimidating me, arresting me, not
because I'm breaking any ordinance,
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because they don't like me.
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There was an event that was the straw
that broke the camel's back.
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The Shrine Circus was an annual
institution in Grand Rapids.
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Mike was...
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00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:15,040
doing his preaching outside the ticket
office and accosted a woman verbally
229
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,060
about her religion, about her faith. I
interviewed her subsequently.
230
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,340
He roughed her up pretty good, according
to her.
231
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,720
She was so upset, she wanted him to go
to trial, see him pay for what he had
232
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:33,720
done to her.
233
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,240
But the city cut a deal with him that he
would leave town,
234
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:41,700
worldwide tour.
235
00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:51,800
I don't recall hearing from him for
quite a while until Mike became a
236
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,800
figure in the Andrea Yates story.
237
00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:58,800
I get a call, and it's Mike.
238
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:02,500
He was unhappy with the story in the
Grand Rapids Press. He thought the story
239
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,859
was slanted against him. He said, come
on, Steve, you know me.
240
00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:07,560
We go way back.
241
00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:09,920
It was the only time he ever asked me
for anything.
242
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,500
And he said, I would like you to publish
my objections to that press coverage.
243
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,819
And so we do our interview.
244
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,640
Mike denied any culpability.
245
00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:25,140
His defense was, we love those kids.
246
00:17:25,940 --> 00:17:30,540
We would never suggest that a mother
should kill her children.
247
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,200
And he said they needed Jesus.
248
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,100
followed how they should live their
lives according to his beliefs, this
249
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:46,100
wouldn't have happened.
250
00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:55,940
Over the years, I had done some
research, and the word cult occurred to
251
00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:03,920
Because of his charisma, his performance
skills, and all those things,
252
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,740
he could be a cult leader.
253
00:18:11,530 --> 00:18:14,750
I started thinking, how many victims are
out there? How many people are still
254
00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:15,750
under his spell?
255
00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:21,730
And then I came across the First
Survivors website, and I thought, wow,
256
00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:22,910
a lot more victims.
257
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:31,170
I first met Michael Warnicke on campus
at Michigan State University.
258
00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:37,270
For about a year and a half, I was very
intensely enmeshed with the Warnicke
259
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:41,090
cult. I fell for what he was preaching,
hook, line, and sinker.
260
00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:45,150
But then I realized, no, the message is
wrong.
261
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:47,350
The fruit is bad.
262
00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:52,550
And Andrea Yates drowning her children
is like the most symbolic fruit of his
263
00:18:52,550 --> 00:18:54,130
ministry you will ever get.
264
00:18:55,310 --> 00:18:59,430
And so I started the website, Michael
Warnicke, The Ultimate False Prophet.
265
00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:04,430
I put that site out there in hopes of
rescuing other people involved with the
266
00:19:04,430 --> 00:19:05,430
cult.
267
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,960
I had thousands of views.
268
00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:12,820
I got contacted by as many as 40 people.
269
00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:16,020
And so that's how I met David.
270
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,180
Reading the similar stories from other
survivors and what they went through, it
271
00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:28,600
made me realize that we were
manipulated, that we were deceived
272
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:34,760
that there was nothing flawed with me.
It was him who was the flawed one.
273
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,720
I believe that Michael Wernicke should
stand accountable for it, and I believe
274
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:41,940
he will on the day of judgment.
275
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:53,940
I think it's a really good question to
ask whether Michael Wernicke is a cult
276
00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:58,140
leader or if this particular belief
system is a cult.
277
00:19:59,540 --> 00:20:04,540
People oftentimes assume that when you
talk about the word cult, that means
278
00:20:04,540 --> 00:20:05,540
there's a compound.
279
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:11,560
But that's not necessarily true based
off of all of our definitions on how to
280
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:12,880
define a destructive cult.
281
00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:18,540
It's a dedication to a particular
person, idea, or thing.
282
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:25,340
Michael is ultimately someone who does
not want people to
283
00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:27,000
think independently.
284
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:32,020
There is a clear pattern of
indoctrination.
285
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:38,930
He's sending people personalized
messages, either audio or pamphlets.
286
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:44,510
that Michael does is he really taps in
and utilizes and manipulates. He creates
287
00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:49,730
this state of heightened emotionality in
his messages for people.
288
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:53,070
The effects of...
289
00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:59,140
Psychological manipulation and the
effects of this type of ideological
290
00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:05,960
control can leave someone feeling
trapped in a psychological prison. The
291
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,440
of that can be extremely devastating.
292
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,580
An appeals court in Texas has overturned
the murder convictions of Andrea Yates
293
00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:25,740
because of false testimony by an expert
witness.
294
00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:31,220
A state expert claimed Andrea Yates
watched law and order and may have
295
00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:35,980
plot where a mother used postpartum
depression as a defense for drowning her
296
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:41,220
children. However, it was later proven
that no such episode ever existed.
297
00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:46,100
The ruling means Yates is entitled to a
new trial.
298
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:53,660
In June of 2006, I was requested to
participate in a jury for the state of
299
00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:59,080
versus Andrea P .A. Yates, and I gasped.
It shocked me, and it scared me.
300
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,820
Everybody in Houston knew about this
case, and everybody had an opinion that
301
00:22:03,820 --> 00:22:05,300
heard many, many times.
302
00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:08,360
Of course she was crazy. She killed her
children.
303
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,840
With Andrea Yates set to stand trial
once again, Will the court affirm her
304
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,740
guilt, or will a new verdict reshape the
legal and moral reckoning of one of the
305
00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:20,820
most harrowing cases in recent history?
306
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,880
The first day of trial, and really every
subsequent day, Andrea Yates would come
307
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,380
into the courtroom quiet and shy and
reserved.
308
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,800
The evidence will show you that she had
been contemplating the death and the
309
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,760
killing of these children for
approximately two years, that she knew
310
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,400
wrong, and that she knew she would be
punished.
311
00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:46,230
And that's what she told the police on
June 20th of 2001.
312
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:50,590
There was a vast difference between the
first trial and the second trial.
313
00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:53,810
This was a mental illness and a delusion
that she was acting.
314
00:22:54,110 --> 00:22:58,530
We thought we needed to do a better job
of explaining what was going on in her
315
00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:04,170
head at the time. In 2001, her illness
had gotten so great that their lives
316
00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:05,170
gone.
317
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:07,450
She wouldn't worry about saving their
lives anymore.
318
00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:09,890
She was worrying about saving their
souls.
319
00:23:10,730 --> 00:23:12,990
explain how the delusion got formed.
320
00:23:13,250 --> 00:23:19,850
The entire word of God speaks about the
last days, days of intense, powerful
321
00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:22,310
deception and delusion.
322
00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:27,730
And where she got the delusion was from
this faith -based relief that Michael
323
00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:29,590
Warnicke was espousing.
324
00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:35,330
I first heard the name Michael Warnicke
on the second week of the trial, when
325
00:23:35,330 --> 00:23:39,330
the Warnicke pamphlet, The Perilous
Times, was entered into evidence.
326
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,480
At this point, I was starting to realize
that Yates' religious beliefs were not
327
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,480
necessarily mainstream.
328
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,500
This actually was something that was
brought up in the courtroom to give us
329
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:56,280
context as to the religious beliefs of
Andrea Yates. Modern Mother Worldly was
330
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,340
very, very lazy. All of her children
drove her crazy.
331
00:23:59,790 --> 00:24:04,150
Now the Bible told her to spank and
train them. So if the Bible's telling
332
00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:08,270
Mother Worldly to discipline her
children, but because she's not, on the
333
00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:09,930
judgment, she will have no plea.
334
00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:12,410
Modern Mother Worldly gets cast in hell.
335
00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:15,550
Now what becomes of the children of such
a Jezebel?
336
00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:20,310
Because the illusion is still that she's
a bad mother, that the children are
337
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:23,630
flawed, that they're going to hell
unless she sends them to heaven.
338
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:28,410
This really started to paint a picture
for us as to the mind of Andrea Yates.
339
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,920
I knew that there was something about
this Warnicke that needed to be paid
340
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:34,920
attention to.
341
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,060
Dr. Resnick, who interviewed Andrea
Yates shortly after her arrest, will
342
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:42,060
the stand today.
343
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,900
You love your children?
344
00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:52,960
Yes, not in the right way, no.
345
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,240
Mrs. Yates had a number of paranoid
ideas.
346
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:06,020
She claims that she and the children
would watch cartoons. The
347
00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:11,100
characters would speak directly to her,
telling her she was a bad mother.
348
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:12,920
Mrs.
349
00:25:14,020 --> 00:25:16,980
Yates believed that she was marked as
evil.
350
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,820
She believed she had 666 tattooed on her
head.
351
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:32,000
And she believed that Satan was
literally within her and surrounding her
352
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,600
influencing her during her psychotic
period before the killing.
353
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:43,700
Michael Warnicki lectured about Satan
being a very powerful
354
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:44,700
force.
355
00:25:50,890 --> 00:25:57,590
Michael Warnicki is emphasizing how real
Satan is and how
356
00:25:57,590 --> 00:26:02,490
these demons and Satan will take over
your mind.
357
00:26:05,410 --> 00:26:10,630
So she clearly was strongly influenced
by Michael Warnicki.
358
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:19,070
His testimony was one of the most
powerful. I've never forgotten what Dr.
359
00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:19,929
Resnick stated.
360
00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:25,850
Andrea Yates' religion was the trellis
upon which the ivy of her mental illness
361
00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:26,850
grew.
362
00:26:27,690 --> 00:26:30,410
Everything in her psychosis tied back to
her religious beliefs.
363
00:26:34,190 --> 00:26:38,290
After the last day of testimony and
closing arguments, we went into the jury
364
00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:42,230
room. We had eight jurors that believed
she was not guilty by reason of insanity
365
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:44,130
and four that claimed she was guilty.
366
00:26:44,350 --> 00:26:48,010
We were arguing kind of back and forth
about what she believed and what she
367
00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:53,010
didn't believe. One of the most
challenging aspects of this trial was
368
00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:54,890
get into the mind of Andrea Yates.
369
00:26:55,470 --> 00:26:59,670
In order to ascertain whether or not she
knew what she was doing was wrong, we
370
00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:02,990
did request a number of items, including
the pictures of the kids.
371
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,140
and a copy of the Perilous Times, which
was the newsletter that we knew was in
372
00:27:08,140 --> 00:27:10,760
the Yates' home when the children were
killed.
373
00:27:11,660 --> 00:27:16,240
So we had been told that this picture,
this image that was brought into
374
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,040
evidence, was from the Perilous Times.
But that's all that we saw, right?
375
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,100
And in this limerick that was discussed
was really the essence of everything.
376
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,520
But it wasn't. There was a lot more.
377
00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:34,180
And so this copy of the Perilous Times
was brought into the deliberation room.
378
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,280
The eternity of my children is my
accountability while they are children,
379
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,900
would be sending them to hell if I
raised them to think according to the
380
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,820
standards of this world. By the time a
child is the age of accountability, it's
381
00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:49,579
too late.
382
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:53,500
By this time, the thinking of the world
that you have taught them takes over.
383
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,520
God is going to hold you accountable.
384
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:04,880
The perilous times is the most relevant
media to me in my life. The highest
385
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,720
stakes thing for you is if you are a
parent, your responsibility is your
386
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:15,720
salvation. There's a lot of pressure on
parents to make their kids obey, fall in
387
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:22,200
line, and the price to pay if you didn't
do that, you cause one of your kids
388
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,880
to go down.
389
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:32,040
You told me earlier there came a time
when you felt you were being a bad
390
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:33,300
Could you explain that?
391
00:28:33,740 --> 00:28:39,740
Well, they weren't developing right and,
you know, academic
392
00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:43,740
sense and, you know, righteous sense.
393
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:51,100
According to Michael's teaching, a child
becomes no longer a child. They become
394
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:52,100
no longer innocent.
395
00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:55,880
They're not saved before the age of 12.
396
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,120
which is age of accountability,
397
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:00,760
you're going to hell.
398
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,580
And if you had not taken their lives,
what did you think would happen to them?
399
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,640
If they were to continue stumbling.
400
00:29:09,740 --> 00:29:10,920
And where would they end up?
401
00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:14,600
Hell. I 100 % believed all of this.
402
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,400
All of this. I would be up that night,
worried I was going to hell.
403
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,380
How old are you, Moses?
404
00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:27,880
My mom would often express to us, That
if you found a way that we all died,
405
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,760
would be a blessing. Because if you die,
I mean, you're going to heaven.
406
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,060
You're going to paradise.
407
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:38,620
What were you trying to accomplish then
when you did take your children's lives?
408
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,680
Maybe in their innocent years, God would
take them up.
409
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:52,560
And so when I found out that they died,
it wasn't shock at all. It was, ah.
410
00:29:53,290 --> 00:29:55,870
Damn it, they did it. They did it before
us.
411
00:29:56,110 --> 00:29:59,610
And what does this mean for me and my
place in heaven?
412
00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:04,670
You mentioned an aphorism from the Bible
about a millstone. Would you say what
413
00:30:04,670 --> 00:30:05,670
that is?
414
00:30:06,150 --> 00:30:12,290
It's better to tie a stone around your
neck and throw yourself in this sea than
415
00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:14,490
to cause the little one to stumble.
416
00:30:15,970 --> 00:30:17,030
That's why she did it.
417
00:30:18,670 --> 00:30:20,570
She was saving her kids.
418
00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:30,550
I don't want to admit this stuff out
loud.
419
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:38,310
I don't... You
420
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:38,830
know...
421
00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:53,130
Jesus
422
00:30:53,130 --> 00:30:55,070
does single out one group.
423
00:30:56,550 --> 00:31:03,460
Children. He says it's better to tie a
heavy millstone around your neck and
424
00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:08,760
be drowned in the depth of the sea than
to cause one of these little ones who
425
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:09,920
believe in me to stumble.
426
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,060
In reading The Perilous Times, I was
shocked. And I sat there shocked and I
427
00:31:21,060 --> 00:31:26,520
the jury, hey, everything in her
delusion is in the newsletter.
428
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:30,990
She believed she was an unrighteous
mother, and this unrighteous mother had
429
00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:34,730
produced unrighteous children, and those
unrighteous children were going to burn
430
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:37,670
in hell unless they died before the age
of accountability.
431
00:31:38,770 --> 00:31:43,970
That was everything that we needed to
hear to basically understand why she did
432
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:44,970
what she did.
433
00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:55,270
But there was one holdout juror who
said, we just can't forget the children.
434
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,900
It was an incredibly emotional moment
for everyone.
435
00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:04,500
So on the last day of deliberations, we
did have a moment of silence for each of
436
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:05,500
the children.
437
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,400
Two minutes per child where we reflected
and prayed and thought about the
438
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,220
magnitude of what we were doing.
439
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,620
And afterwards, I got up and wrote
something on the board.
440
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:28,490
It is our job, our duty, to Judge Andrea
P .A. Yates based on the facts
441
00:32:28,490 --> 00:32:31,970
presented in the evidence and the law
given to us by the court.
442
00:32:35,610 --> 00:32:37,590
Let God judge her after that.
443
00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:41,550
And after that, the last holdout said I
want to vote.
444
00:32:47,850 --> 00:32:50,190
Mr. Foreman, has the jury reached a
verdict?
445
00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:52,350
Yes, sir. Will you please pass it to the
president?
446
00:32:59,790 --> 00:33:04,830
We, the jury, find the defendant, Andrea
P .A. Yates, not guilty by reason of
447
00:33:04,830 --> 00:33:05,830
insanity.
448
00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:09,310
Signed, Todd Christopher Frank, foreman
of the jury.
449
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:17,450
I thought, wow, the results of not
guilty for reason of insanity was quite
450
00:33:17,450 --> 00:33:21,690
relief. I was super, super grateful. In
many respects, she's a victim in all
451
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:25,450
this because she became ill. We were
unable to get adequate treatment for
452
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,420
She did this horrible, you know, thing
that just devastated all of us. But, you
453
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:33,040
know, I can't lose sight of the fact
that this wasn't her.
454
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,220
Rusty came across the survivor's
website.
455
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:43,000
This is an email that I got from Rusty
saying that he found one of Michael
456
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,540
Warnecki's tapes in the tape player at
the time of the tragedy.
457
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,480
It was called What is Truth?
458
00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:54,440
It's a tape I've listened to before many
times.
459
00:33:55,179 --> 00:33:59,820
Andrew Yates was listening to Mike all
the way up until that tragic day.
460
00:34:00,980 --> 00:34:02,640
You want to submit to his kingdom?
461
00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:07,860
Then you must conform. You must go with
his program. You must yield. You can't
462
00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:11,219
just do your own little thing, or you
will pay consequences.
463
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:16,639
But then Rusty would say things like,
Mike got influenced, but it was, you
464
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,040
Andrew was psychotic because of her
depression.
465
00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:25,370
I think that he wasn't aware that other
people went through some abuse from
466
00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:26,370
Michael.
467
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:31,650
Everyone responds a little differently,
you know. I've tried myself to think,
468
00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:35,949
well, how would life be different if I'd
never met him? Even outside of the
469
00:34:35,949 --> 00:34:39,889
tragedy, even just for me, how would my
views of change should be different? And
470
00:34:39,889 --> 00:34:41,130
I don't know.
471
00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:47,170
I was stunned. I was in this cult for 12
years. I was like, Rusty, what are you
472
00:34:47,170 --> 00:34:48,409
talking about? It's horrible.
473
00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:50,590
He ruins people's lives.
474
00:35:00,150 --> 00:35:02,730
This is a news story about Andrea.
475
00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:06,930
A couple has ties to an out -of -state
religious group.
476
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:12,550
Andrea's brother says, to me it was kind
of a cult religion. They made
477
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:14,670
statements like Catholics are going to
hell.
478
00:35:15,470 --> 00:35:19,390
We're back with Karen Kennedy and Brian
Kennedy, the mother and brother of
479
00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:22,190
Andrea Yates. What happened to that
girl?
480
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:23,910
Wannake.
481
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:25,910
Satan. A preacher.
482
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:28,090
Andrew has introduced him through
Russell.
483
00:35:28,330 --> 00:35:30,930
You paint him as part of the villain of
the piece? Oh, absolutely.
484
00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:33,510
She's always talking about the devil.
Everybody's going to hell.
485
00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:36,270
Everybody's a sinner. And he preached to
Andrea.
486
00:35:36,650 --> 00:35:39,050
Yeah, but I mean, he's got some type of
a cult following.
487
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,640
What do you think about it being
referred to as a cult?
488
00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:45,940
Well, it could be seen that way.
489
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,800
But, I mean, I don't think it is.
490
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,400
It's a fine line, I'll admit that.
491
00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:01,220
Interesting.
492
00:36:23,259 --> 00:36:23,760
I asked
493
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:30,960
to
494
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,460
talk to you because there's a lot of
things I just wanted to ask you and get
495
00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:39,620
your advice on. Your story and your
family has been such a significant part
496
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:40,618
my life.
497
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:46,300
This religion, this ideology had
absolutely fractured our family and
498
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:51,760
to affect us today, even though we have
never had to face the pain that your
499
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,860
family had to face.
500
00:36:55,450 --> 00:36:59,950
His whole thing is, like, what's the
sixth of us, and everybody else is going
501
00:36:59,950 --> 00:37:03,150
hell, basically. Yes, he will be saved,
like, in the days of Noah. Yeah.
502
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:08,630
You become a caterpillar, you go into a
cocoon, and then eventually become a
503
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:10,070
butterfly, and then you're saved.
504
00:37:10,290 --> 00:37:13,870
That's the result to us. So it was like,
how do you get into Michael's favor?
505
00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:17,590
Oh, yeah, that starts bordering on
manipulation, right? I mean, if there's
506
00:37:17,590 --> 00:37:20,610
carrot and there's a bar and the bar
keeps going up, you never get there, so
507
00:37:20,610 --> 00:37:26,150
don't. So for me, I thought, okay, well,
he's not God, so I'm not going to worry
508
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:28,610
too much about his heaven and hell
speech.
509
00:37:29,230 --> 00:37:34,670
How did you hear the same teachings that
my parents heard and you took that from
510
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:38,730
it? I think it's a mistake I made with
Andrea is that, you know, I was raised
511
00:37:38,730 --> 00:37:43,910
a tradition of, you know, grace and
forgiveness, not a tradition of, you
512
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:44,950
fire and brimstone, right?
513
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:47,850
So when she heard this heaven and hell
stuff.
514
00:37:48,730 --> 00:37:51,270
You know, did it make her more concerned
than she otherwise would have been
515
00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:54,610
about her standing before God? I think,
of course. How could it not? Your
516
00:37:54,610 --> 00:37:57,410
situation is probably more similar to
Andrea's than it is to mine.
517
00:37:58,650 --> 00:38:01,990
It helps me just try to understand my
own parents more.
518
00:38:02,290 --> 00:38:07,110
And I love my parents. I want to have a
relationship with them. You know, I see
519
00:38:07,110 --> 00:38:09,730
them. I understand how they were taken
advantage of.
520
00:38:11,770 --> 00:38:15,030
Can I tell you something I 100 %
believe?
521
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,280
what the Wernicke's would say and my
parents' definition of God until I was
522
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:27,920
And when I found out what happened with
your
523
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:34,820
family, I was jealous of your
524
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:37,260
kids because they did it.
525
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,920
In my definition of heaven, they, yeah.
526
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,160
Oh, wow.
527
00:38:49,860 --> 00:38:55,980
And I'm sorry I felt that way because I
don't know what you...
528
00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:57,420
That's irresponsible.
529
00:38:57,740 --> 00:38:58,840
I'm so sorry.
530
00:39:00,220 --> 00:39:01,220
But yeah.
531
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,620
I guess I hadn't realized how much some
have struggled with... and what the
532
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:15,380
impact of his messaging has been. But
there are a lot of people whose lives
533
00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:18,980
a completely different route than they
would have and who are still suffering
534
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:22,180
from emotional damage from that
exposure.
535
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,800
And I had no idea.
536
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:29,460
Yours is an amazing story because it
started so young. You know, you were
537
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:30,460
into that.
538
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,600
It's most of the conversation we'd have
over a beer, I hope.
539
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,220
I know, let's have a beer.
540
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,600
Yeah.
541
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:40,720
No,
542
00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:42,620
likewise, yeah.
543
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,200
The tragedy in our family is related.
544
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:55,040
I think this has maybe helped expose a
bit of a pattern of manipulation with
545
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,480
Warneckys. They're so exclusive, they're
going to heaven, everyone else is going
546
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:00,480
to hell.
547
00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:05,740
I think that, looking back, I
miscalculated the effect on Andrea.
548
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,040
Now, I believe her delusions...
549
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:13,310
could well have been influenced by her
exposure to the Warneckys.
550
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:18,550
If I had to do it all over, I would not
have introduced her to them.
551
00:40:32,450 --> 00:40:36,170
I'll never be able to love as freely as
I did before the tragedy.
552
00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:38,130
I'll try, but...
553
00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:39,670
It's not easy.
554
00:40:42,830 --> 00:40:48,650
The way that I see it, we're this tiny
blue dot in an enormous universe that's
555
00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:49,890
barely a speck, you know.
556
00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:52,110
That's the reality. That's what we can
see.
557
00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:55,210
It's a whole harsh universe.
558
00:40:56,670 --> 00:40:58,810
I hope this isn't it, you know.
49094
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