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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:08,040 This programme contains some strong language 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,120 Ten years ago, God, Brexit. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,040 The vote to leave the European Union 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,840 changed the course of British history. 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360 Both seems unimaginably distant and like yesterday. 6 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,720 Ten years on, this is the story of the EU referendum 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,640 told by those inside the campaigns. 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,160 They were putting pressure on me to do joint events with Cameron. 9 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:36,320 I said, "No." 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,120 It's not going to convince anybody other than we both look desperate. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,680 It was very difficult because I was a campaigner 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,640 but I was also the Prime Minister. 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,000 I said, "This is not Project Fear, this is Project Apocalypse. 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,240 "This is something that is far graver 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,080 "than just worrying people about leaving the European Union." 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:57,800 CHEERING 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,840 I got the impression very, very early 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,400 that the people that ran Vote Leave, they didn't really want to win. 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,600 It was nothing to do with the EU, Britain's place in the world. 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,640 It was Game Of Thrones. That's what Boris Johnson was playing. 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,240 And he could see the Iron Throne right there about to be vacated. 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 I don't think at that point he really believed in it. 23 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,400 He believed it was going to lose. 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,680 Watch out, team, watch out. 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,160 Everybody says I did this in order to be PM. 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,560 I would have become Prime Minister anyway. 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,680 Morning, Ed. Hello, morning. Morning. 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,360 As the country voted in the 2015 general election, 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,360 few expected it would lead to a referendum 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,080 on whether Britain should leave the EU. 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,960 What's going to happen? 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,560 What's going to go on? 33 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,080 The Mail - "One in four are still undecided." 34 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,080 The Express - "Vote to keep Britain great." 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,960 The Guardian - "It couldn't be closer." 36 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,680 "Well hung," says The Sun. 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,960 We gathered in the Prime Minister's home on election day, 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,240 and there was a real feeling in the air that we may have lost this, 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,760 or at least that Labour would be the largest party 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,520 and be able to form a government. 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,360 I remember that afternoon, 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,240 I wrote a speech which would have effectively been conceding, 43 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,600 cos you've always got to be ready for every eventuality, 44 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,240 and I remember reading it to my team. 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,320 David Cameron's mood throughout the evening became bleaker and bleaker. 46 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,120 We then sat down to watch the BBC exit poll. 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,040 It was a really heart-stopping moment, 48 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,760 just simply not knowing what the result was going to be. 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,560 But here it is, ten o'clock, 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,840 and we are saying the Conservatives are the largest party. 51 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:59,800 I remember the exit poll as if it was yesterday. 52 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,480 It was a moment of great joy for me, that we had worked really hard, 53 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,800 I think we'd run a good government for five years 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,360 and we had the chance of serving again. 55 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Quite remarkable, this exit poll, 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,000 the Conservatives on 316. 57 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,680 That's up nine since the last election in 2010. 58 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,680 CHEERING 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,920 On the night of the election, 60 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:27,000 I mean, I was up in the north of England in my own constituency, 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,320 so I wasn't with the rest of the team, 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,320 and a huge cheer went up with the group of people I was with 63 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,320 and then I immediately phoned David. 64 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,600 We no longer had a coalition, we no longer had Liberal Democrats, 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,040 but in some ways it was going to be harder to govern. 66 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,440 I mean, it was an exciting time, but I knew we had made a promise 67 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,400 to hold a referendum before the middle of the Parliament. 68 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:57,360 Cameron's victory left Labour and the Liberal Democrats leaderless. 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,720 And now it's time for someone else 70 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,240 to take forward the leadership of this party. 71 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,480 And therefore, I announce that I will be resigning 72 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,320 as leader of the Liberal Democrats. 73 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,480 It was also an eventful night for UKIP leader Nigel Farage... 74 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,320 Nigel Paul Farage. 75 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,520 ..who was hoping to be elected as an MP for the first time. 76 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,840 UKIP. 16,026. 77 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:28,080 CHEERING 78 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,040 Craig Mackinlay, 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,840 the Conservative Party candidate. 80 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:37,080 18,838. 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,800 CHEERING 82 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,120 Election day 2015. Didn't win the seat down in Thanet. 83 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,640 So, yeah, there was a sense of disappointment about that. 84 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,280 When the count came through, 85 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:49,960 I remember him walking offstage, 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,440 we went out the back, 87 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,560 and he sat in the corner on his own for about ten minutes. 88 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,360 He was exhausted. He was pissed off. He had lost. 89 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,240 So there he was on the clifftop. "That's it, I'm finished." 90 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,360 There hasn't been a single day of my life since 1994 91 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,240 that has not been dominated by UKIP. 92 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,960 I haven't had a fortnight's holiday since October 1993. 93 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,240 I intend to take the summer off, enjoy myself a little bit, 94 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,240 not do very much politics at all. 95 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,680 This way. 96 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,040 Nigel can get a bit emotional sometimes, can't he? 97 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,840 So he needed to have his moment, his tantrum, 98 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:30,120 and then recalibrate. 99 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,640 I was down for about 24 hours. 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,800 I woke up the next morning and I've not won a seat. That's life. 101 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,600 But the government's been elected 102 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,640 and they've promised us a referendum on European Union membership. 103 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,640 I then thought, "Hang on, maybe I shouldn't resign. 104 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,400 "If there is a referendum coming, perhaps I'd better be a part of it." 105 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,360 So I then unresigned very, very quickly. 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,680 David Cameron had won a majority of 12. 107 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,040 His first opportunity to speak to his newly elected cohort 108 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,560 came at the 1922 Committee, 109 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,680 a meeting of backbench Tory MPs, 110 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,760 dozens of them determined to leave the EU. 111 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:16,560 We went into the 1922 Committee 112 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,520 and there was a lot of banging of desks and cheering 113 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,680 and a scarcely believing 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,160 that the Conservative Party had gone from being in a coalition government 115 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,840 to actually having an overall majority. 116 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:30,400 I deliberately sat right up the top of the room, 117 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,520 near where the Prime Minister, David Cameron, would be, 118 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,960 and I sat facing so I could see the rest of the room, 119 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,040 see how they were going to react. 120 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,080 I strongly recall that David Cameron 121 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,760 looked like a man who was surprised he'd won. 122 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,400 He did not look elated. He looked daunted, actually, 123 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,240 by what he was now going to have to do. 124 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,480 There was the dawning realisation 125 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,560 that having a majority did mean 126 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,560 that we would finally get that referendum. 127 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,320 David Cameron's making this good fist of trying to look pleased 128 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,000 that he's still the Prime Minister. 129 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,240 So he thanks George Osborne, his great master strategist. 130 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,120 And I'm looking around this packed room of elated people and I think, 131 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,440 "Where's George?" 132 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,400 I think we expected to stay in office, 133 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,920 but we didn't expect to win outright. 134 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,280 And so there's that moment when you're exhausted 135 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,040 and you've won and then, you know, politics is, "And now?" 136 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,560 And I spotted him 137 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,600 sitting on the steps next to the big committee table. 138 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,280 So, almost hiding, he wasn't making himself seen, 139 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,040 but he was sitting there with arms on his knees and his head down. 140 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,600 You know, this was a despondent-looking man. 141 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,720 And I thought, "Yeah, you didn't expect to have to hold a referendum 142 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,600 "cos you thought you'd bargain it away with the Lib Dems." 143 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,440 There was a feeling, I think, that there was a virus 144 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,200 inside the Conservative Party, 145 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,520 and a lot of people had come to feel that dealing with the Europe issue 146 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,000 was more important than the party itself. 147 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Immediately, it was clear the big issue was now going to be 148 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,840 the EU referendum, and that was going to dominate 149 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,720 the coming period in politics. 150 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,440 Before holding the referendum, 151 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,720 David Cameron promised to renegotiate 152 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,360 Britain's relationship with the EU. 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,480 REPORTER: David Cameron is attempting something 154 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,280 no EU leader has done before - 155 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,520 asking every other country to agree a set of reforms 156 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,640 that will then be put to a national vote 157 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,480 on whether to remain in or leave the European Union. 158 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,480 But that summer, the EU faced a more pressing problem. 159 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,280 REPORTER: The hunt for safety, prosperity, or both, is right now 160 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,800 causing the biggest movement of people since World War II. 161 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,760 Hundreds of thousands of refugees, 162 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,840 many fleeing the war in Syria, 163 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,280 were arriving on Europe's shores. 164 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,360 REPORTER: You can't harden your heart for scenes like this. 165 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,400 These are some of the latest migrants making the perilous journey 166 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,240 across the Mediterranean. Many have lost their lives. 167 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,760 For Cameron, the race was on to hold the referendum 168 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,000 before another huge wave of migrants 169 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,000 provided further ammunition for Eurosceptics. 170 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,480 Nigel was starting to get excited. 171 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,960 "This referendum, this is going to be good. 172 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,400 "I don't know when they're going to call it but it's going to happen." 173 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,200 But after the election, he was exhausted. So I said, 174 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,480 "Do you want to come on holiday? Do you want to come fishing?" 175 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,480 And he said, "Yes, yes. Let's go and do that." 176 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,360 So I said, "Why don't you come to Belize?" 177 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,200 I went away with one of my advisers, with Arron Banks, for a few days. 178 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,920 And we talked about what would the sequencing being, 179 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,760 what would the time being? 180 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,040 And I was convinced that Cameron would go early. 181 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,520 What amazed me about Nigel 182 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,480 was just how deep his understanding of politics is, 183 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,440 and he realised that the referendum was more than just Brexit. 184 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,600 It would be to do with the future of the Conservative Party. 185 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,680 I knew from day one 186 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:18,840 that the Conservative Party would back Remain. 187 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,120 The Conservative establishment would back Remain, 188 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,000 but that some would break away. 189 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,080 He said, "We need a separate campaign. 190 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,960 "We need to get out ahead of the Conservatives 191 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,920 "who will try to avoid immigration as an issue." 192 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,840 They found it all was too difficult, too awkward to discuss. 193 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,880 So we decided, in those weeks following the election, 194 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,040 we'd get going. 195 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,240 So that's how we created this Leave.EU campaign. 196 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,320 Morning, Nigel. Good morning. 197 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,000 It was at the UKIP Conference in the autumn of that year 198 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,560 that we launched Leave.EU. 199 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,160 The best thing we did was to start early, 200 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,680 because that then forced others who wanted to come out for Leave 201 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:04,840 to get their campaign going as well. 202 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,280 The UKIP leader's brand of politics was a concern for many Conservatives 203 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,320 who wanted to leave the EU. 204 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,880 It wasn't going to win a referendum where you need to win over 205 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,720 the broad consensus of the population. 206 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,720 Too many people were alienated by the Farage brand. 207 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,360 Tory Eurosceptics like Jenkin wanted their own campaign, 208 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,720 and knew just the man to run it. 209 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,480 Gordon Brown's chief economic adviser 210 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:38,880 is now republishing a pamphlet 211 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,800 he wrote a few years ago saying what a terrible idea the euro is. 212 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,680 15 years earlier, 213 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,880 Dominic Cummings had successfully run an operation 214 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,400 to stop Britain joining the euro. 215 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,360 He was the obvious choice to run Vote Leave. 216 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,800 I knew he was the guy who could do the job 217 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,560 because he's fearless in his campaigning. 218 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,200 Dominic goes all-in on something, 219 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,160 in some ways a bit like a sort of SAS general. He's able to... 220 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,920 If you sort of point to the fortification you want to take, 221 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,600 he's, you know, all-in to take that fortification, come what may, 222 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,240 using whatever methods necessary to do it. 223 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,480 Elliott and Cummings were determined to launch Vote Leave 224 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,200 with a bold claim. 225 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,200 I'm at my desk and Dom walks past and goes, 226 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,680 "Oliver, roughly speaking, 227 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:36,240 "how much do we send to the EU every week?" 228 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,480 So I basically went on to the official government stats, 229 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,040 the so-called Pink Book, 230 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,480 and found the numbers and, simple, divide it by 52. 231 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,040 And so it was, roughly speaking, 232 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,320 about £350 million a week, you know, taken as a gross figure. 233 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,960 "Do you want that figure?" And he goes, "Yeah, absolutely." 234 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,520 And I said, "Oh, why do you want it?" 235 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,680 He goes, "Oh, no reason. Don't worry about it." 236 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,080 Every week, the United Kingdom 237 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,640 sends £350 million 238 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,920 of taxpayers' money to the EU. 239 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:11,960 We did use it deliberately. 240 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,960 In doing that, it helped everyone discuss, what is the balance sheet? 241 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,360 What's the true balance sheet? 242 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,880 That's £20 billion per year. 243 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,800 The reason why that figure drove everyone crazy 244 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,800 is that we were using true figures. 245 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,440 But Cummings' figure did not account for the rebate - 246 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,600 around £80 million - 247 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,520 or EU money spent in the UK. 248 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,080 It was a fantastic video, but I thought, 249 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,360 "We can't use 350 million, that's the gross figure. 250 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,760 "We've got to use the net figure 251 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,600 "otherwise we'll be completely lampooned and ridiculed." 252 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,520 From the minute the Vote Leave was launched, you know, 253 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,040 and that was in direct response to what Leave.EU had done, 254 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,720 I thought, "Look, there must be a coming together of some kind. 255 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,240 "There must be an accommodation of some kind." 256 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,240 It makes sense... It makes sense to have a campaign 257 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,560 with a lot of the political spectrum represented. 258 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,480 A meeting between Farage's Leave.EU 259 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,720 and Dominic Cummings' Vote Leave was organised. 260 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,920 They said that immigration and Nigel would put 261 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,800 middle class voters off from voting for Brexit, 262 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,680 and that he should be sidelined. 263 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,040 What they didn't realise was, actually, 264 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,520 both Dominic and I had a very clear idea 265 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,000 about how the referendum campaign 266 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,200 could and should be won, 267 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,760 and it wasn't basically going all-in on immigration 268 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,320 and concentrating on the core vote. 269 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,880 You needed a more sophisticated campaign. 270 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,080 They thought we would actually lose the referendum on our side 271 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,040 because of the negatives. 272 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,840 So, you know, the 38% of the population 273 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,920 that were not going to vote Leave hated Farage. 274 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,280 "Ah, look, there's a minus approval rating." 275 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,080 What they didn't understand was, 276 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,040 on the positive side of the equation, we could increase turnout. 277 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,560 It started getting into a row, so Arron, um, 278 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,000 was not holding back. He was piling in. 279 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,880 Certainly, Cummings and Banks had a lot to say about each other. 280 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,560 I told him straight to his face what I thought of him. 281 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,760 You know, that he was a political spad 282 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,520 that had never done anything with his life, 283 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,120 never amounted to anything, and who was he to tell me, 284 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,680 um, you know, anything, really? 285 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,600 And then he responded with, uh, you know, 286 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,120 a four-letter expletive starting with C. 287 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,280 HE LAUGHS 288 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,760 That's when we knew pretty much that, um, 289 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,200 there's no way there was going to be any, um, joining of the forces. 290 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,640 Meanwhile, the Remain side had their own problems. 291 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,600 Peter Mandelson was an experienced former Labour minister 292 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,400 and EU Commissioner. 293 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,640 He was organising a cross-party campaign 294 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,720 and wanted to get the Prime Minister signed up right away. 295 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,480 I met David Cameron at a leaving party for a Number 10 official 296 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,240 and he came up to me and we started talking 297 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,240 about the prospects for the referendum, and I said, 298 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,160 "Well, we've really got to start mobilising, 299 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,160 "we've got to start organising." 300 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,000 He said, "Hold on. No, no, no, no, no." 301 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,480 You know, "We haven't even had a negotiation yet. 302 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,880 "We have to maintain the illusion 303 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,600 "that we might, even if the negotiation is disappointing, 304 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,160 "recommend that we leave the European Union." 305 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,280 This gave me, you know... 306 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,440 It was a real problem because, you know, on the one hand, 307 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,240 I had a Conservative leader and Prime Minister 308 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,120 who was trying to sort of put the brakes on 309 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,560 and not being entirely enthusiastic. 310 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,720 And on the other hand, Jeremy Corbyn. 311 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,200 Jeremy Corbyn elected as leader of the Labour Party. 312 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,840 REPORTER: A moment some of his critics hoped they'd never see. 313 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,880 Now the challenge is, can he make the group hug last? 314 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,560 Can he keep Labour together? 315 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,120 In the leadership campaign in 2015, 316 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:08,600 Jeremy was the only candidate 317 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,240 who wasn't just a kind of 318 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,200 absolutely Remain enthusiastic. 319 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,760 A lot of the Shadow Cabinet were very anxious about that. 320 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,720 They wanted just a very clear answer from Jeremy. 321 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,120 "You are supporting in?" 322 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:20,680 And Jeremy sort of paused and gave his view of the EU, 323 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,080 which is a mixed bag. 324 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,920 I was saying that I see social advantages. 325 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,240 I see the point about trade within Europe. 326 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,200 I do think we have to be there, 327 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,200 but not be tied into free market economics, 328 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,200 which will damage the whole of the economic strategy 329 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,680 I wanted to put forward, which is about 330 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,440 a public investment-led economic revival in Britain. 331 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,960 You could see, the minute he said that, they'd just cut him off 332 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,440 and go, "But we are supporting in." 333 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,520 I said, "Yes, we'll campaign for it with the qualification..." 334 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,120 And I made this qualification from the very beginning, 335 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,840 that we weren't going to campaign jointly with the Conservatives 336 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,320 or Liberal Democrats. It was going to be our campaign, 337 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,720 it'd be a Labour campaign, 338 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,320 which would also be about the need to change and reform the EU. 339 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,160 Without direct support from either Corbyn or Cameron, 340 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,920 Mandelson and his cross-party group decided to press on and launch, 341 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,360 using the name... 342 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,120 We were getting very close to launch date. 343 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,720 We didn't have a chair. 344 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,240 And somebody had been talking to Stuart Rose, 345 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,960 who'd been the chairman of Marks & Spencer. 346 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,120 Nobody was more surprised than I 347 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:37,680 to have a phone call one day saying, 348 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,320 "Stuart, you know, we've got this campaign now to remain in Europe 349 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,040 "and you're the man to do it." 350 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,080 And I said, "You must be joking." 351 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,600 And then I had another phone call, you know, an hour later saying that, 352 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,960 "Stuart, you're just the man." Then I had another phone call saying, 353 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,640 "Stuart, you're just the man." I kept saying, "No, no, no, no, 354 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,840 "I'm not the man." 355 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,320 But they leant on me very heavily. 356 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,640 Stuart's speech had been approved and it had been briefed. 357 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,600 And when a speech is briefed in politics, 358 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,760 it means it's already being written up 359 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,360 and the media are expecting the lines to be delivered. 360 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,720 But at the 11th hour, he decided he didn't like some of those lines. 361 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,320 I'm used to going through a debate 362 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,480 to make sure that we get the best line. 363 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,760 We all understand it and you believe in what you're saying, 364 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,160 and it's very hard to stand up when someone gives you a script 365 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,680 and suddenly starts spouting forth on this stuff 366 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,320 when half of it you don't believe. There was the word quitter. 367 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,040 I mean, instinctively it said to me, 368 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,520 "Stuart, we really shouldn't be calling people 369 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,080 "who don't want to stay in Europe quitters, cos it's a negative." 370 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,360 I remember sitting there with the speech, 371 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:39,800 and I had my pen out, saying, you know, "I'm not saying this, 372 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,200 "I'm not saying that," while trying to change the words. 373 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,200 Welcome to the launch of Britain is Stronger in Europe campaign. 374 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,200 It was kind of like taking a world-class lock forward 375 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,720 from a rugby team 376 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,520 and trying to make him open the batting for England in The Ashes. 377 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,520 He was a brilliant sportsman, but playing the wrong sport. 378 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,440 I am not saying, and we are not saying, 379 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,960 that we would not survive from being without the EU, 380 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,600 but I'm saying that... 381 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,720 But I'm asking the very real question, would we thrive? 382 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,640 I thought the launch went extremely badly. If I'd been me, 383 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,960 I'd have marked myself three out of ten. It really was that bad. 384 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,920 Watching the launch of the Stronger In campaign, 385 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,600 our heads were in our hands. 386 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,040 From that moment on, the campaign was mocked. 387 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,600 And I think that that really catalysed the sense that 388 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,920 if we don't get a grip of this, we are going to lose this. 389 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,880 Craig Oliver was dispatched to meet the leaders of Stronger In. 390 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,640 When I was shown the polling, what was clear was, on one side, 391 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,520 we had a third of people who were going to be out, come what may. 392 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,240 We had a third of people on the other side 393 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,200 who were going to be in, come what may. 394 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,120 And in the middle were a sceptical group. 395 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,360 They didn't particularly care about European unity, 396 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:00,480 but they did care about whether it was going to impact on their pocket. 397 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,000 I think the thing that really ensured that the Number 10 folks 398 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,960 were comfortable with the Remain campaign was our insistence 399 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,520 that we understood economic risk 400 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,400 had to be a critical part of the message. 401 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,040 The other thing I was keen to persuade them of 402 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,800 is that we weren't a bunch of Euro nutters, 403 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,040 that we did understand, you know, 404 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,560 where the British public were. That we weren't just taking for granted 405 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,000 that we could just sort of conjure up Ode To Joy and play the music 406 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,480 and just march off into the sunset and win this referendum. 407 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,200 So by the end of that meeting, I felt, "Look, we CAN work together, 408 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,600 "we can be part of a team," 409 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,800 and that that should be what we did going forward. 410 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,040 We shouldn't reject them. 411 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,960 In public, though, Cameron insisted 412 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,760 he could still opt for Leave if his negotiation with the EU 413 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,640 failed to deliver special concessions. 414 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,160 But his chance of success was made far more difficult 415 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,680 by the ongoing refugee crisis, 416 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,840 which was dominating nightly news coverage. 417 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,280 REPORTER: A desperate scramble to get on board 418 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,800 as Hungary opens its main railway station to thousands of migrants 419 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,280 who want to get to western Europe. 420 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,720 We are real people! 421 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,280 REPORTER: There was a crush to get back from the tear gas. 422 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,080 We are human. We're trying to be someplace safe. 423 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,680 Why they're hitting us? 424 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,920 REPORTER: They travel onwards, propelled by hope, 425 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,760 most heading for Germany. 426 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,280 I remember talking to David in November of 2015. 427 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,200 The one thing that I said to him, and this was more by way of being 428 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,280 an adviser than a friend, 429 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,560 um, was that immigration was going to be key. 430 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,520 Unless, in this negotiation, 431 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,680 it was clear that there'd been a significant win 432 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,120 in terms of Britain's capacity to control free movement 433 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,120 and to control migration, 434 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:11,040 then it would be much more difficult for him to sell any deal. 435 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,960 The most obvious answer 436 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,080 to having some measure of immigration control 437 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,480 from people coming from other EU countries 438 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,560 was simply to have an emergency brake, 439 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,960 a cap on numbers, so that if, for instance, 440 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,680 in a given year it was going over 50,000, 441 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,320 you could say, "Right. We're pulling the emergency brake," 442 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,160 the cap comes into operation, 443 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,160 no more can come for this year until the numbers come down. 444 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:42,080 When Cameron consulted the EU's most powerful leader, 445 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,600 German Chancellor Angela Merkel, 446 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,960 she gave him worrying feedback. 447 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,720 I talked to her about it at length and she said, 448 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,240 "This is not negotiable. 449 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,240 "This is something the European Union cannot allow. 450 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,880 "The freedom of movement is one of the four freedoms 451 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,440 "in the European Union, of freedom of goods and services 452 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,520 "and capital and people, and you can't do that." 453 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,720 The EU's rejection of Cameron's demand 454 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,520 made it even more important he had the backing 455 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,040 of his high-profile colleagues. 456 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,800 The Christmas holiday 457 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,800 provided an opportunity for him to test the water. 458 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,240 David Cameron invited me and my family to Chequers 459 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,440 and it was a very relaxed family gathering. We talked about, 460 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,800 you know, shared friends, food, football, all of the things 461 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,040 that friends would probably talk to each other about. 462 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,320 I think, you know, part of the reason we were there 463 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,840 was Dave reminding Michael of what it was that he had. You know, 464 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,320 "This is who we are. This is..." 465 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,960 You know, "I'm the Prime Minister, this is Chequers." You know, 466 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,320 "This is the environment." 467 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,280 Like a kind of subtle sort of, 468 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,360 "Do you really want to give all this up?" sort of a thing. 469 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,440 We talked about almost everything, 470 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,480 apart from the looming vote on the European Union. 471 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,720 But David, on the whole, didn't really like talking in detail 472 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,040 about politics or policy when he had downtime. 473 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,360 It might come up, uh, tangentially, uh, but it wasn't a subject that, 474 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,040 uh, he liked to address. 475 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,720 And I had my own reasons for not really wanting to disturb 476 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,360 the festive atmosphere by bringing up anything uncomfortable. 477 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,720 Dave's a very diplomatic human, actually. 478 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,760 Uh, I've always admired that ability. 479 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,000 And he just sort of, uh, you know, we were sort of... 480 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,480 I think we were sort of in charge of the children or something. 481 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,040 The others had gone away or gone for a walk or gone for a swim. 482 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,720 I remember sitting on the sofa talking to Sarah and asking her, 483 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,000 you know, "I hope I'm going to be all right, 484 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,320 "that Michael will be, you know, supporting and on my side." 485 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,200 So I just said to him, you know, "You know what Michael's like, 486 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,640 "he's not scared of Europe. 487 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,160 "He thinks that Europe takes lots of liberties, but I think 488 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,360 "he'll probably ultimately come down to your way of thinking." 489 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,040 I thought, you know, I genuinely thought that would be the case 490 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,200 because we were close and we'd done so much together, 491 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,160 I thought we'd be on the same team. 492 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,800 Next in Cameron's sights was Boris Johnson. 493 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,080 The Mayor of London had also become an MP at the 2015 election. 494 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,280 He'd never had a cabinet job. 495 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,960 David Cameron's point of view in meetings, he would say, 496 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,000 "Look, we've got to try and bind this guy in." 497 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,120 It's the old Lyndon Johnson thing of wanting somebody inside the tent 498 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:38,320 pissing out, rather than outside the tent pissing in. 499 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,960 The two men had a decades-old rivalry. 500 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,760 They were both at school together, and when, um, 501 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,160 men of a certain class say school, what they mean is Eton, 502 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,920 and the rivalry really started there. 503 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,280 The fact that Dave became Prime Minister first, 504 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,960 even though he was two years younger, 505 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,480 I think really riled Boris. 506 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,760 He thought that it was his turn to be world king 507 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,920 before it was David Cameron's. 508 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,680 I wanted to have, you know, just a personal conversation with Boris 509 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,280 without any aides or other people around, 510 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,080 just sort of the two of us. 511 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,160 And we always talked about our joint love of tennis. 512 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,320 Um, I had this wonderful deal 513 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,400 where I could use the American ambassador's court 514 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,800 next to Regent's Park, 515 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,880 and it was a sort of peaceful place to go for some rest and recreation. 516 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,480 I love playing tennis, and, um, 517 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,080 Dave is actually very good. 518 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,880 He's a left-hander, um... 519 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,160 Sorry, left-hander. 520 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,400 And he's very hard to beat. I've never beaten him. 521 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,040 I think my sister Rachel has beaten him, I'm proud to say. 522 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,200 And I've beaten Rachel, 523 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,480 so that counts as a sort of partial victory over Cameron. 524 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,120 First of all, you know, he did thrash me, but that's fine. 525 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,640 And he then... He then said, 526 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,480 "Look, um, would you consider joining us on the Remain campaign?" 527 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,320 And, you know, "It'd be much better... 528 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:07,760 "I'd love to have you in the cabinet, 529 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,880 "you should have a top five job." 530 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,440 And I wasn't sure what the exact hierarchy was. 531 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,200 I knew there was, uh... You know, 532 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,040 I've obviously thought about it, uh, out of pure curiosity, you know, 533 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,040 what was this job? There's Prime Minister, 534 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,440 um, uh, Home Secretary... Lord Chancellor, Home Secretary, 535 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080 Foreign Secretary, uh... That's four. 536 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,640 And what is the fifth? A mystery. 537 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,160 I didn't say which job it was. I said, "Be in no doubt," 538 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,560 you know, "Defence is a top five job, for instance." 539 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200 I wanted him, you know, to understand 540 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,800 that I valued his contribution, 541 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,360 that he would be a major part of the government going forward. 542 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,600 Being offered a top five job by the Prime Minister, 543 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200 it's a pretty fantastic thing. 544 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,440 So, yeah, I was interested and excited. 545 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640 David Cameron came back from that tennis meeting feeling doubly good. 546 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,720 One, that he'd beaten Boris Johnson at tennis, 547 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,840 and, two, that he may have a concession 548 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,920 that he would actually join the government. 549 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,360 CBI! Shame on you! CBI! Voice of Brussels. 550 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,600 While David Cameron was fighting to keep the Conservative Party united, 551 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,400 Vote Leave's chief strategist Dominic Cummings 552 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,960 was already working to sabotage this. 553 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,120 APPLAUSE 554 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,320 One of the most important things that a government can deliver 555 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,800 is long-term economic security and stability. 556 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,920 CBI! Voice of Brussels. 557 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,640 Come on. Come on, guys. If you sit down now, you can ask me a question 558 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,080 rather than making fools of yourself by just standing up and protesting. 559 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,960 We got in because Vote Leave formed a company for us 560 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,840 and, um, we pretended to be businessmen. 561 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,480 Shame on you! 562 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,960 It became clear very quickly after the event 563 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,240 that certain people, certain MPs, 564 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,600 really didn't like what we had done. 565 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,400 I was absolutely furious. 566 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,960 I'm afraid I... 567 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,560 Even now I want politics to be noble. 568 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,480 I think politics is important. 569 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,360 They just laid into Dom 570 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,760 and said that they had to respect David Cameron, 571 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,120 that he was the Prime Minister, 572 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,240 he was the leader of the Conservative Party, 573 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,920 and how could we do this? 574 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,600 It was just an appalling neglect 575 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,560 of a fundamental requirement of our campaign 576 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,440 that it should leave the Conservative Party 577 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,600 fit to actually carry out the result of the referendum, 578 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,920 whichever way it went. 579 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,280 Dom just turned around and said, "You are wrong. 580 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,280 "You can either support leaving the EU or you can support David Cameron. 581 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,040 "And if you don't like that, there's the door." 582 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,880 I went to see Dominic Cummings and I explained, 583 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,200 I didn't think that Vote Leave 584 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,680 could be some kind of political terrorist campaign, 585 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,120 just blowing things up. 586 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,880 Dominic was absolutely furious 587 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,520 and he took me outside into the stairwell and bellowed at me. 588 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,480 I'd been at work during the day, 589 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,080 and so I went over to the offices 590 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,000 at about six o'clock in the evening. 591 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,960 Up I go in the lift, up to the Vote Leave floor, 592 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,240 the doors open as if curtains on a stage, 593 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,600 and there are two characters on the stage looking at each other, 594 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,800 and I'm looking at them, and they're about this far apart. 595 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,520 One is Bernard Jenkin and the other's Dom Cummings. 596 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,040 He was shouting at me, um, 597 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,440 and very, very angry and trying to intimidate me, 598 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,080 um, in an almost uncontrolled way. 599 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,400 Bernard is looking really quite disconcerted, 600 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,520 while Dom says something along the lines of, 601 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,720 "If you ever say something like that to me again, 602 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,520 "I'm going to make sure you never 603 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,880 "are going to be allowed in this office again. Do you hear me?" 604 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,040 I certainly felt his spittle on my face, and I was just thinking, 605 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,360 "This is a very serious breakdown in a relationship 606 00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,400 "and a very serious threat to the good governance of Vote Leave." 607 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,720 INDISTINCT CHAT 608 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,560 From my point of view, from that moment on, um, 609 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,280 certainly Dominic should have been removed because what he showed 610 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,520 was that he was not willing to be held to account. 611 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,160 And that's the recurrent theme of all of the time I've known him. 612 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,640 It was not just Tory Brexiteers Cummings was alienating. 613 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,440 My problem with him was that he didn't seem to think that 614 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,760 MPs really had much, um, you know, should have much say in anything. 615 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,440 He seemed to not understand 616 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,040 or not want to understand that, you know, 617 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,280 what was happening at the ground level, 618 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,960 at the grassroots level, was going to be very, very important. 619 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,000 For Nigel Farage and his team, 620 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,120 securing a Labour MP would be a coup. 621 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,440 The rumblings had started within the Vote Leave group 622 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,320 about the fact that, um, you know, 623 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,640 a lot of them weren't happy with what Cummings and Elliott 624 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,960 were doing at all. 625 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,680 It was really obvious to me that you needed to get the Labour vote out 626 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:08,200 if we had any chance of really winning. 627 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,280 And that seemed to be something 628 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:18,240 that Leave.EU and Arron and Andy understood better. 629 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,720 We encouraged Kate to come and join Leave.EU. 630 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,600 We basically said, "Yeah, leave it with us, 631 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,440 "we're going to build the ground campaign." 632 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,920 In a move unprecedented for a Labour MP, 633 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Kate Hoey agreed to share the stage with Nigel Farage. 634 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,480 I get up there in the morning, there's a queue. 635 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,280 I said, "What's this for?" And they said, 636 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,000 "Oh, this is for the campaign, the Leave campaign. 637 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,320 "I hear you're doing a rally." 638 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200 I said, "Yeah, but not for another five hours." 639 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,760 But, yeah, we're queuing. 640 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,520 The traffic jams we caused, it was extraordinary. 641 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,760 I said, "We hardly advertised this. 642 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,080 "We thought we were going to have 200 people. 643 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,720 "You've got 1,600 people in that room 644 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,040 "and they're all here to hear what you've got to say." 645 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,520 "Oh." The blood drained from his face 646 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,200 as he realised that this is a big deal. 647 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,800 I'd never met Nigel. It was slightly concerning. 648 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,520 I mean, you have to remember that, in those days, 649 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,360 there was a feeling about Nigel that was just pretty horrible. 650 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,040 A lot of people had very, very, very strong views about him. 651 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,240 And there was always this feeling, you know, 652 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:32,280 "Oh, if I go on a platform with Nigel Farage 653 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,800 "are people are going to start calling me a racist?" 654 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,480 She probably, like many Labour figures, 655 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,840 thought I was Voldemort or something like that. 656 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,120 I sat down with Kate and I thought, 657 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,000 "Well, the most important thing - 658 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,680 "don't try too hard. Just be what you are." 659 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,200 And I think within ten minutes, actually, we hit it off. 660 00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:54,320 The Kettering rally was a very Trumpian kind of rally. 661 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,000 I didn't know there was going to be music. 662 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,160 I didn't know that I was going to have to walk up this long alleyway, 663 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,520 you know, between people cheering. 664 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,360 We are finding that people are coming out and saying, 665 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,960 "At last, within the Labour movement, 666 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,800 "there is some kind of debate. 667 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,480 "We're fed up with the Europhiles who've been running our party." 668 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,080 It was very moving because there was no doubt about it 669 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:25,080 that there were lots of people there who were not, um, Tory voters. 670 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120 Kate turned to me and said, "These are Labour supporters. 671 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,040 "These are not Conservative supporters. 672 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,080 "These are people who feel like they've been left behind, 673 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,320 "let down by the political class." 674 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,480 Nigel walks in like the Messiah, 675 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,760 with all these people clapping and standing 676 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,760 and these Tories behind us going, "What the...?" 677 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,520 You know, this is mental. 678 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,760 How the hell is Nigel Farage having that reaction? 679 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,520 This is so important 680 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,480 that it's not about left or right, 681 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,000 but it's about right or wrong. 682 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,880 And we know what's right and we must win this referendum. 683 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:13,400 For Nigel, it was the first time 684 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,480 he had been with all party members on a stage, 685 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,160 and I think he was quite emotional about it, too, that day. 686 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,640 It was almost like that group of people were welcoming me in, 687 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,600 albeit slightly nervously, 688 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,960 whereas the snobbier end of the equation within Vote Leave 689 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,760 would have nothing to do with me. 690 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,400 At Vote Leave's headquarters, unhappiness with the leadership 691 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,320 of Dominic Cummings could no longer be ignored. 692 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,560 By this time, quite a lot of MPs were saying, 693 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,600 "Have you got rid of Dominic yet?" 694 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,600 There began to be a sort of consensus 695 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,840 that something had to be done 696 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,880 if the campaign was to be saved. 697 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,160 The result was an agreement in general to draw up a contract 698 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,120 which would move Dominic away from the day-to-day operations. 699 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,600 Now, it just happened 700 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,000 that I was already discussing a contract with him. 701 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,840 It was really as to whether he should be a contractual employee 702 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,600 or freelance operator. 703 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,280 I said, "Look, let's have a one-to-one discussion in private." 704 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,080 I mean, it's just a normal day to begin with. But then Dom says, 705 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,080 "The board want me to go across the river to the other building." 706 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,280 Once we sat down and we were looking at each other, I said, 707 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,320 "Dominic, I'm sorry, I brought you here under false pretences." 708 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,640 I said, "It's not working. You've upset too many people." 709 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,160 Came to the Vote Leave office and something felt very different. 710 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,040 Matt Elliott, our chief executive, came to me with a very long face 711 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,120 and said, "Have you heard what's happening?" 712 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,760 And I said, "No. What's going on?" And he said, 713 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,240 "Well, the board have summoned Dominic 714 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:08,840 "and they're going to fire him." 715 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,880 And I said, "What? This is going to be catastrophic. 716 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,360 "We can't lose our campaign manager. What are we doing here? 717 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,800 "Let's go over there and do something about it." 718 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,040 By this stage, a number of senior members had joined the meeting, 719 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,760 and I handed Dominic a draft contract, 720 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,520 which actually I've got here. Um, and it's a contractual agreement, 721 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,880 which made him a strategic adviser rather than the campaign director. 722 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,600 I think this document gave him quite a shock. 723 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,280 And he started texting. Clearly texting back to his colleagues. 724 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,720 Suddenly, I'm pulled into the corridor by our head of operations, 725 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:49,920 who goes, "There's a coup. The board are trying to make Dom resign." 726 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,120 Dominic was saying, "I'm going to walk out 727 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,880 "and I'll take the whole team with me." And I... 728 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,280 In that moment, I thought, this whole thing, 729 00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,920 this whole thing which I've been working towards 730 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:01,640 for the better part of 30 years, 731 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,720 is about to collapse over some stupid personality clash. 732 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,080 So we decided that we needed to draft a letter, 733 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,160 making it very clear that IF they forced Dom out, we would all walk. 734 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,280 Out of the blue, I got a call from Dominic Cummings. 735 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,200 Dominic had been working with me in the past 736 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,640 at the Department for Education, 737 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,600 and Dominic was uncharacteristically agitated. 738 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,360 He was normally ice cool 739 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,960 in most conversations about politics. 740 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,320 It was clear that there was something that was up 741 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,640 in the campaign, 742 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,000 and Dominic asked me if I could, uh, speak to a couple of people. 743 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,800 I talked to a couple of MPs who were involved in Vote Leave, 744 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,560 and I said, "Look, I haven't made up my mind definitively yet. 745 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,920 "David hasn't concluded his negotiations. 746 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,160 "However, I have to tell you, if Dominic Cummings is not 747 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,320 "playing a role in this campaign, then I'm not going to be playing, 748 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,160 "uh, any sort of prominent role at all either." 749 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:01,960 Cummings' supporters had saved him. 750 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,400 I saw Dom that evening after the attempted coup, 751 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,360 and I asked him how he was doing, 752 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,200 and he just looked back at me and said, 753 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,160 "We need the cavalry to arrive." 754 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,760 In early February, a draft of Cameron's EU deal was published. 755 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,520 You couldn't get my chair up a bit? There seems to be a kind of... 756 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,360 INDISTINCT CHAT 757 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,080 I'm sitting at my desk in City Hall and Dave calls me up to say, 758 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,400 you know, "How's it going with the decision-making process 759 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,400 "on the EU referendum?" 760 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,480 So I said to him, "Look, I'm really sorry, but, you know, 761 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,480 "the way things are going, the way my mind is moving at the moment, 762 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,040 "I think I'm going to go with Leave." 763 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,080 I said, "Look, I know you think that my renegotiation 764 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,560 "hasn't achieved everything you think it should, 765 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,000 "but you've never backed leaving the EU before. 766 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,400 "You've argued for reform, you're a Eurosceptic, fine, 767 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,400 "but you've never argued for leaving, so don't start now." 768 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,280 He did get a bit testy and he said, 769 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,520 "Well, if you do that, I will fuck you up forever." 770 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,600 And I was a bit intimidated by that 771 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,080 because, you know, forever's a long time to be, 772 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,760 you know, fucked up by, uh, you know, 773 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,360 the instruments of government 774 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,000 with all the, you know, trained fucker-uppers. 775 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,320 I don't remember saying that but, look, I was getting very passionate 776 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,160 about it because I knew that Boris had a huge role to play in this. 777 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,560 I went back to see my family later on that evening. I said, 778 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,520 "Well, look, you know, had a bit of a bust-up with Dave earlier on 779 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,160 "about the EU thing." 780 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,360 Boris relayed that Cameron had said to him, 781 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,160 "If you support Leave, I'll fuck you up forever." 782 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,400 I thought it was... 783 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,440 ..actually surprisingly weak, in a way, 784 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,880 and I thought it was surprising 785 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,240 that they weren't talking about the issues. 786 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,320 Marina Wheeler, Boris Johnson's wife, 787 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,800 was celebrating her recent appointment as a QC. 788 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,520 Is Boris at home? He's not here, no. OK. I was hoping to persuade you 789 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,040 that you might not need to stay around here, actually. 790 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,920 She had long-standing concerns 791 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,320 about the EU's increasing hold over UK law. 792 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,040 David Cameron had come back saying that he had achieved a great deal 793 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,800 by managing to exempt the UK from ever closer union. 794 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,840 The real problem with ever closer union 795 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,000 was that the Court of Justice used this 796 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,040 as a way of expanding the reach of EU law 797 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,680 and expanding the whole scope of the project, 798 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,080 and what Cameron had achieved in terms of agreement 799 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,200 wasn't going to touch that. 800 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,760 I've known Marina since I was a small kid, 801 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,800 we'd both been small. She's basically a liberal soul, right? 802 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,960 She's not a foaming xenophobe. The absolute opposite. 803 00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,120 As a lawyer, I began to be more and more aware of that process, 804 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,680 of what the court was doing. 805 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,760 And I did have that conversation with Boris. 806 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,960 I was very struck when she said that she, too, 807 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,040 was inclined to vote Leave. 808 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,200 Personally, I felt, you know, the country will choose, 809 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,560 you can't just keep quiet. 810 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,560 That is abrogating responsibility. 811 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:26,440 But he was coming under great pressure to stick with Cameron. 812 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,640 I didn't particularly want to upset the apple cart. I didn't want to, 813 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,560 you know, um... 814 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,160 ..be fucked up forever. Why? You know? 815 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,400 As Boris Johnson wavered, 816 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,240 David Cameron decided he and George Osborne 817 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,400 needed to confront Michael Gove. 818 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,000 David Cameron once described the world of politics 819 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,880 as being divided into two types of people - 820 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,680 team players and wankers. 821 00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,960 And from David's point of view, 822 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:04,280 I'd been a team player in the past, so when there was a requirement 823 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,000 to fall into line on the EU referendum, 824 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,200 I think he naturally assumed that I would be a team player then. 825 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:13,640 I really remember that meeting 826 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,040 and it wasn't just a meeting. 827 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,560 It was a meeting of friends. 828 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,200 You know, we were people who had lived together for ten years 829 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,960 in terms of our work, in terms of our holidays, 830 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,920 you know, we knew each other's families. 831 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,880 George and I tried to spell out for him 832 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,160 what we thought the consequences would be if he supported Leave 833 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,240 and if, as a result, Leave gained a lot of traction and won. 834 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,080 I basically pleaded with Michael. I said, 835 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,080 "If you go to the Leave campaign, you are going to give it 836 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,240 "credibility, which it doesn't currently have. 837 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,240 "It's got a kind of Farage tinge to it, 838 00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:49,600 "which puts a lot of respectable people off. 839 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,520 "Boris Johnson is going to get FOMO and feel he has to be part. 840 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,720 "And David Cameron is going to have to resign if we lose. 841 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,040 "Don't kid yourself that this government can continue 842 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,320 "if you've lost this big referendum. 843 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,400 "And everything we have worked for is going to be shattered." 844 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,200 For me, the fundamental problem with Britain's membership 845 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,840 of the European Union is that laws were imposed on us 846 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,120 that we couldn't alter or change. 847 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:22,360 And European Union law for all of the member states is supreme. 848 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,840 And I said, "Whatever your sort of particular concerns 849 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,760 "about parliamentary sovereignty, we are, you know, 850 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,680 "a country that needs the economic support of the EU, 851 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,840 "and, frankly, you know, what's going to happen if we leave? 852 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,480 "Who's going to be happy? Vladimir Putin's going to be happy. 853 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,760 "The Chinese President's going to be happy. 854 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,560 "And doesn't that tell you what this really means for the West?" 855 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,680 I made it clear to them. 856 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,200 "I'm sorry. This is something I deeply believe. 857 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:53,720 "I didn't want this referendum, but now I have to make a choice." 858 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,960 This was a bombshell that someone who I was very close to, 859 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,080 was a key part of the team, was wavering 860 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,800 and then effectively saying, "I think I'm going to go with Leave." 861 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,840 For me, there was a choice between 862 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,600 staying close to what I believed and, you know, 863 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:14,400 relative moral cowardice and suppressing that in order to, 864 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,080 well, to safeguard personal relationships. 865 00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,320 A week later, Boris Johnson invited Gove to dinner. 866 00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:31,000 I had some warning 867 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,520 because I cooked a pretty delicious slow-roast lamb, 868 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:42,280 and it turned out that the purpose of the evening 869 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:48,720 was for Boris and Michael to discuss this impending decision. 870 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,880 I think what we were both thinking was, 871 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,160 "Well, you know, do we want to go through the pain 872 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,760 "of being at variance with the Prime Minister, 873 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,360 "seeming to be difficult, 874 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,280 "being mutineers, and then probably lose it?" 875 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,400 Uh, and then, you know, being, um, 876 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,560 cast out as splitters and, you know, whatever. 877 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,240 We started off, I think, upstairs, um, 878 00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:22,760 you know, chatting around. Then we went downstairs to eat dinner. 879 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,120 Marina had cooked lamb and while we were eating 880 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,680 and discussing the pros and cons of our membership of the EU, 881 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,960 the phone rang. It was Oliver Letwin, 882 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,960 who was David Cameron's policy supremo. 883 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,040 Boris put it on speaker. 884 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,600 We were trying to sort out this question of whether you could 885 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:49,160 somehow assert the supremacy of UK law over European law. 886 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,480 Although I was trying hard not to show that I was listening to this, 887 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,240 I mean, obviously I was hearing sort of snippets of it and I thought, 888 00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:01,560 "Mm." I mean, it sounded pretty unlikely to me. 889 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,760 It became clear during the conversation 890 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,640 that Britain remaining in the European Union 891 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,240 would mean Britain continuing to be subject to European laws 892 00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,240 and the European Court of Justice. We couldn't change those laws. 893 00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:17,000 We'd have to accept ever closer union, 894 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,320 whatever the deal said. 895 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,600 And that, for me, was a clincher. 896 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,640 But Michael Gove did not tell the Prime Minister 897 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,440 he'd made his decision. 898 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,400 I'll be battling for Britain. 899 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,400 If we can get a good deal, I'll take that deal. 900 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,640 But I will not take a deal that doesn't meet what we need. 901 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,840 The next evening, just as Cameron was about to announce the deal 902 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,160 he'd secured from his EU counterparts, 903 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,160 news broke from London. 904 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,560 REPORTER: In a blow to the Prime Minister, 905 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,680 the BBC has been told that one of his closest cabinet allies, 906 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,240 Michael Gove, will campaign to leave the EU. 907 00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:21,000 We were at the end of an incredibly long negotiation 908 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,240 and it was a shock that it was being done 909 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:26,640 at the moment when I was preparing to think 910 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,440 how I would talk to the country about this. 911 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:32,920 CAMERAS CLICK 912 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,080 Now, let me say about Michael Gove. 913 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,840 Michael is one of my oldest and closest friends, 914 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,960 so of course I'm disappointed that we're not going to be 915 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,920 on the same side as we have this vital argument 916 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,360 about our country's future. 917 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,240 Cameron returned home to launch the referendum. 918 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,400 He called the first Saturday cabinet meeting 919 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,400 since the Falklands War in 1982. 920 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,480 It felt momentous to be walking into that cabinet meeting. 921 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,920 We're all conscious that it was a meeting 922 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,680 that might play a significant part in history. 923 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,840 There was lots of support for the Prime Minister's deal. 924 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,520 There are other cabinet members who made their views plain 925 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,560 that they were on the Leave side. 926 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,000 It was worrying to hear different views 927 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,640 on one campaign that the government was going to be running. 928 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,440 It's difficult enough in politics 929 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,160 to all follow one leader, one plan, 930 00:50:54,160 --> 00:51:00,040 and the concept of us all having different views and picking sides 931 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,160 was going to be very different from what we'd got used to. 932 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,080 I think the most powerful intervention came from Michael Gove, 933 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,840 where he emphasised that he just couldn't pass up the opportunity 934 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,280 to secure the UK's place 935 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,040 as an independent, self-governing democracy. 936 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,960 I just spoke from the heart that this was the moment 937 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,640 that Britain could choose to be an independent, 938 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,640 self-governing nation. 939 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:29,320 And for me, that was, above all, THE most important consideration. 940 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,480 Those who want to leave Europe 941 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,840 cannot tell you if British businesses will be able 942 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,040 to access Europe's free trade, single market, 943 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,560 or if working people's jobs are safe, 944 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,240 or how much prices would rise. 945 00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:49,560 All they're offering is a risk at a time of uncertainty. 946 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,840 On Monday, I will go to Parliament 947 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,680 and propose that the British people decide our future in Europe 948 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,800 through an in/out referendum on Thursday the 23rd of June. 949 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,840 When the Prime Minister actually announced the date, 950 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,680 I thought, "Holy shit, that is so soon. 951 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,080 "We've got so much to do in order to win that referendum." 952 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,320 But the Leavers had a plan immediately after that cabinet 953 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,520 and they came together very quickly. 954 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,440 I had a Jaguar XF, which I parked up outside the house, 955 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,400 and the ministers came over from Downing Street. 956 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,200 So I put The Great Escape on and drove them over to Vote Leave. 957 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,080 I remember looking in my rear view mirror 958 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,200 and thinking how slightly absurd it was to see 959 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,040 four members of the cabinet crammed into a car heading to Vote Leave. 960 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,760 It was a very strange moment. 961 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,680 Theresa Villiers, the Northern Ireland Secretary, 962 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,400 had a government car for personal protection reasons, 963 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,680 and she invited me to join her to go to the Vote Leave headquarters. 964 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,440 The car journey, it was quite quiet and solemn. 965 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,040 I think both Michael and I 966 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,800 were conscious that these next hours, days, weeks 967 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,880 of the referendum could have a big impact on the future of our country, 968 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,040 potentially, and significantly, an impact on us 969 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,960 and our careers personally. 970 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,600 Michael was perhaps not quite his ebullient self. 971 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,200 Mr Gove, tell us why you're going against the Prime Minister. 972 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,480 I'm normally a relatively ebullient person. 973 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:32,080 I was reflecting on what a momentous decision this was. 974 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,400 Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Vote Leave... 975 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,560 CHEERING 976 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,400 It's me who opened the door and asked everybody to welcome them 977 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,960 to the campaign. And it was a genuine moment of joy 978 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,160 that suddenly the cavalry had now arrived. 979 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,720 I remember watching it with David Cameron on TV, 980 00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:58,440 just like every other citizen, 981 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,040 and it was a real shock cos these were, 982 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,480 you know, our colleagues, our friends, 983 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,680 in some cases close personal friends. 984 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,080 I think that was the first moment we realised, 985 00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,000 "Oh, my God, this is going to be proper kind of civil war 986 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,120 "inside the Conservative Party." You know, there's something... 987 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,200 You know, there's something about a civil war which is... 988 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,440 which kind of hits you here. 989 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,520 Just one person was left on the fence. 990 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,560 REPORTER: Comments, Mr Johnson? CAMERAS CLICK 991 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,040 That morning, I sat on the sofa 992 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:35,480 opposite the Prime Minister 993 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:36,920 trying to discuss firing the gun 994 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,560 on the campaign. And I remember a clear moment 995 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,000 where David Cameron had his BlackBerry in front of him, 996 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,240 and I stopped talking and just let him read it. 997 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,480 And when he'd finished, he just looked up at me 998 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,800 and said, "Well, it looks like out." 999 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,360 And he didn't need to say to me that that was Boris Johnson's email. 1000 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,840 Within hours, Johnson seemed to have U-turned. 1001 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,400 I was just getting bombarded with phone calls 1002 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,080 from people I know and love saying, 1003 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,800 you know, "If you vote Leave, 1004 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,000 "you'll be tendering your resignation from the human race. 1005 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,600 "You'll be joining," you know, 1006 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,400 "bigots and xenophobes incorporated." 1007 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,440 So my spirit sinks, I go, "God." 1008 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,200 Then I sent another message to Dave, 1009 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,920 you know, recording my growing depression about the situation. 1010 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,360 I wasn't hopeful about the depression setting in, obviously, 1011 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,880 but I was hopeful that he was really having second thoughts 1012 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,120 about supporting Leave. 1013 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,720 My advice to Boris was to go by himself 1014 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:43,120 to our house in Oxfordshire, in Thame, 1015 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,680 and write a case for Leave and write a case for Remain, 1016 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,360 and just get it completely clear in your own mind. 1017 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:55,720 I did, and I wrote about 1,000 words or so, uh, for Leave. 1018 00:55:55,720 --> 00:56:00,400 And I talked to Marina and we talked it over. 1019 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,040 It contained what I thought 1020 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,080 were the fundamental issues about sovereignty. 1021 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,800 And it was clear that some of what I'd been saying, 1022 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,600 um, had had an impact. 1023 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,200 When I sat down to write the second piece, 1024 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,120 the best argument I could come up with 1025 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,080 was David Cameron's deal wasn't any good, 1026 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,400 but you know, it never... 1027 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,480 he was never going to get a good deal, 1028 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,520 uh, and we might as well just grin and bear it. 1029 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,560 Boris hates being on his own, 1030 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,080 so I texted him to say, you know, 1031 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,400 "What are you doing?" 1032 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,040 And he said, "Well, why don't you come to Thame and have lunch?" 1033 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,320 Rachel turns up 1034 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,920 and she's brought lasagne. 1035 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,400 Very kind of her, I thought, "Fantastic." 1036 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,240 I could sense this pent-up anxiety and sort of tension. So I said, 1037 00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:52,000 "Why don't we go and play tennis?" 1038 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,160 So we hit balls to each other 1039 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,880 and I was trying to work out his thinking. 1040 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,280 I said, "I don't get it. If you want to be Prime Minister, 1041 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,200 "which you do, 1042 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,000 "why wouldn't you support David Cameron, 1043 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,080 "who said he's only doing one term, 1044 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,080 "and then you'd be the natural successor?" 1045 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,560 And he was saying, "But that's not what I'm thinking. 1046 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,400 "I don't give a fuck about being Prime Minister." 1047 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,720 I was getting incredibly impatient 1048 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:29,080 with arguments based on what might happen to me. 1049 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,680 They went back inside and Rachel Johnson, 1050 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,400 a committed Remainer, read her brother's two articles. 1051 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,120 And I say, "Well, it's quite obvious. 1052 00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:49,320 "The column for Remain is very powerful and conclusive, 1053 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,880 "and the column for Leave is all about how, if we were in the EU, 1054 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:57,280 "we couldn't determine the height of wing mirrors on our trucks." 1055 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,920 And I was like, "Is that it? Is that the best you've got?" 1056 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,560 There was nothing in the article for Remain except, you know, 1057 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,520 doing the right thing by Dave and... Anyway. 1058 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,920 I remember him saying to me, and being very struck by this, 1059 00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,440 that he'd reread the column for Remain and he said, 1060 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,120 "And it made me feel sick." 1061 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,440 At some deep level, it is an emotional thing, you know, 1062 00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:21,880 you either want the country to be independent 1063 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:26,800 or you think that we should create a federal Europe. 1064 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,840 You're a fraud, Nigel! 1065 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,560 I said, "It's got nothing to do with Boris. It's about stopping Nigel." 1066 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,920 It was a very powerful image. 1067 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,840 It's an image, by the way, that if you used it today, 1068 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,120 you'd probably get very little criticism. 1069 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,760 David Cameron said, "We need a shock factor." 1070 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,560 And I said to him, "Look, we've had the shock factor. 1071 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,800 "Jo Cox was assassinated." 145877

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