All language subtitles for Icons.Unearthed.S04E08.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DD+2.0.H.264-playWEB_track3_[eng]

By 2015, Marvel's
grand canvas was no longer blank.

Marvel's Cinematic Universe
actually exists now.

Despite a series of takeovers,

takedowns, and downtimes,
Marvel was now

one of the biggest players in Hollywood,

and it was expanding in all directions.

So, following the success
of Guardians of the Galaxy,

Marvel decided to risk it all

by bringing things back down to Earth.

- Ant-Man?
- Sorry about this.

Our movie's about a shrinking guy

and takes place
in the Quantum Realm.

I mean, Ant-Man is kind of
the butt of the joke.

The idea of, like,
"Here I come to save the day,

by being as small as an ant"
is inherently funny and absurd.

Very little about
this little guy looked like a big hit.

One of the writers had made him,
like, a wife beater.

That's almost unredeemable.

This film sets the stage
for a Hollywood showdown

between two titanic executives,

which left the victor
scrambling to figure out

how to make the world's
smallest superhero...

Ant-Man is, like,
a lesser superhero,

and they know it.

...into a blockbuster.

Ant-Man will kick your ass
one inch at a time.

The story of Ant-Man

is partly the story of
how not to make a blockbuster.

This is the only Marvel movie
that was pitched to them.

As Marvel burned bridges...

It's Marvel's way or the highway.

We're just prepping without a director.

...and burned through a lot more.

I'm gonna tell you one thing about Marvel,
they know how to spend money.

Some sequences got prepped
and then didn't make it. They got cut.

And somehow turned
Marvel's smallest character

into one of its biggest headaches.

Okay, take a deep breath.

This is gonna be unlike anything...

anything... anything...

In the space of 15 years,

Marvel took some
relatively unknown characters

and turned themselves
into a Hollywood juggernaut,

now part of the biggest
entertainment company in the world.

Yet, for as big as they are,
Marvel started small.

And to tell this final tale
in our story of Marvel Studios,

we need to go all the way
back to these small beginnings.

Oh, actually, not quite that far...

this far.
Because it was at this point

in 2006, Marvel put it all on the line.

They announced
they were gonna make movies

of Captain America,
Thor, Nick Fury, and Ant-Man.

It's no coincidence that
that may someday equal The Avengers.

It most certainly did.

However, there was one name on that list

who never made it on screen
in any capacity.

So, Ant-Man?

Ant-Man
completely missed Phase One,

and for that we can thank... zombies.

It was 2004 when a little indie movie

called Shaun of the Dead

would become an international hit...

...and it was this
young director named Edgar Wright

who'd quickly become an industry name

and someone Marvel
was very eager to work with.

So, Marvel CEO Avi Arad
and his second-in-command,

Kevin Feige, set up a meeting

with the burgeoning filmmaker
to ask him...

"Do you have ideas and pitches
that--that you'd like

to do in this--in this world?"

Oh, Edgar had an idea alright.

So, Ant-Man was the only Marvel
movie that was pitched to them.

It turned out Edgar Wright
was a big fan of Ant-Man.

- In fact, so big...
- He was already working on it.

...and he had been for quite a while.

In 2001,
Edgar Wright and Joe Cornish

pitched an Ant-Man movie
to Artisan Entertainment,

who had the rights to a couple
of other Marvel characters,

but the film didn't go anywhere.

But now with the film rights
back in the hands of Marvel Studios,

Arad and Feige took a look at Edgar Wright

and his collaborator Joe Cornish's
Ant-Man treatment.

That original story
that he had became the basis

of what the film became.

And to find out
why Edgar Wright

was so enamored
by this small but mighty hero,

we need to once again
go back to the beginning.

Oh, no, this time the actual beginning.

Ant-Man was one of the earliest of--

of the '60s Marvel characters.

Ant-Man originally appeared

in Tales to Astonish, number 27.

This story about Hank Pym, who could
shrink down to the size of an ant.

And since the book sold well...

Stan Lee decided
they would make him a superhero

and give him a female partner,
Janet Van Dyne.

AKA The Wasp.

Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne,
who were also scientists.

And these
scientists-turned-superheroes

would soon be soaring
to extraordinary heights.

The original Avengers were

The Mighty Thor, The Hulk,

and Iron Man, and then you had
the Ant-Man and The Wasp.

Serious member of The Avengers.
Serious founding member of The Avengers.

And yet despite being
a central figure in the comics,

Ant-Man had never crossed
over to the mainstream.

Stan was always frustrated

he could not sell The Ant-Man.

And Ant-Man
was something he loved.

Every time we'd go in to pitch,
no matter what it was,

whether it was X-Men
or Spider-Man or Avengers

or Fantastic Four,
Stan always brought up Ant-Man,

and people were like,
"Nah... little guy?

No, I don't think so."

And the problem
seemed to lie in the very thing

that gave Ant-Man his strength.

He said he
couldn't seem to convey to anybody

that a diminutive character
could be a superhero.

They just didn't get it.
They couldn't see it.

Well, he is very small,

but then in 1979,
David Michelinie and Bob Layton

solved the Ant-Man conundrum.

They just didn't get it.

Quite simply,
they invented a new Ant-Man.

When we created Scott Lang.

I.E., not Hank Pym.

What made him unique?

He was the first single dad
to be a superhero.

So, he had to balance being
a parent with being Ant-Man.

That was kind of unique for the time.

That was the hook,
which is really amazing

when you think about it
because we did it

in this little showcase book
called Marvel Premiere.

It was just a two-issue thing.

I'm sure it sold marginally well.

Well, it at least sold one copy

because it was an issue
of this Ant-Man

that Edgar Wright tantalizingly
flashed at Comic-Con.

I did the very first cover, the one
Edgar Wright holds up all the time.

And so, with Bob's help,

there was a new Ant-Man.
And as for Hank Pym...

A character that just never caught on.

He started out as Ant-Man

then he became Giant Man,
then he became Goliath,

then he became Yellow Jacket,
then he went back to Ant-Man.

You know, it was just
a whole series of identities,

which, at some point,
you can only look

at that character
and his history and say,

"Well, he's got some issues."

But one issue made Hank Pym
something far from a hero.

One of the writers had made him,
like, a wife beater.

That's almost unredeemable.

A choice that spelled
the end for Hank Pym,

although it should be noted
that Marvel never intended

to make him an abusive character.

Jim Shooter,
who wrote the comic,

intended Hank hitting Janet
to be an absolute accident.

Like, he throws up his hands
and she gets caught in the crossfires,

and the artist took that to another level
of just a full-on punch.

By the time it was caught,

it was deemed too expensive to fix,

and so the issue went to the printers,

forever changing the way
audiences saw Hank Pym.

But, fortunately,
the Marvel Cinematic Universe

is not beholding to the letter of the law
when it comes to these things.

So, Edgar Wright
changed the rules.

Edgar Wright's big idea here
was to not choose to use, uh,

Hank Pym or Scott Lang,
but to use both

and to have kind of a mentor/mentee
relationship and have two Ant-Men.

Now it's friendly, old Hank Pym
who we laugh at and enjoy.

It all works out fine.
One big, happy family.

But now, thanks to Edgar Wright,

Bob was part of a new family of sorts.

You can't imagine my glee

that something as obscure
as Ant-Man was going to be

not only brought to the big screen,

but brought to the big screen
by one of my favorite writer/directors.

I was very excited

when I learnt
that he was doing the film

because it's like,
"This is gonna be unlike anything."

Indeed, Ant-Man wouldn't be

like anything that had come before

because at this point in the story,
Marvel had yet to make anything,

but that would soon change.

All Edgar Wright had to do
was finish his current film.

His plan is
to make it after he finishes

Scott Pilgrim vs. the World,
but after making

Scott Pilgrim vs. the World,
a producer by the name of

Eric Fellner, who runs Working Title,

- uh, gets cancer.
- Edgar had made

Shaun of the Dead
and Hot Fuzz with him.

Both beloved. Both incredible.
Both fan favorites.

And so, Edgar Wright
asks Marvel if he can

go off and make this third
Three Cornettos

- trilogy film first.
- We are gonna see it through

- to the bitter end.
- Kevin Feige says,

"No problem.
We'll push Ant-Man back

- and we'll wait for you."
- So, Edgar Wright goes off

and he makes a film
called The World's End.

I'm afraid the end is nigh.

Not for Marvel.
They were just beginning

because by the time
World's End premiered

in 2013, Marvel had created a universe

and completed the entire
Phase One of the MCU.

Edgar finally comes back to Marvel.

But when he did come back,

it wasn't Marvel
as Edgar Wright knew it.

By that point, the Marvel Studios
machine was well established.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe
was deeply entwined,

and the idea of Marvel
hiring Edgar Wright

to make an Edgar Wright movie

was not something
that Marvel was doing.

In fact,
after meeting various levels

of resistance with many of
the Phase One movie directors,

Kevin Feige was more looking
for collaborators

who could continue his vision,
not come up with a new one.

You know, and the filmmaker
didn't have the sort of

full auteurist control
over what was gonna happen.

But even still,
Edgar Wright was one of a kind.

You know that that guy
has got an amazing vision

for how he makes his films
and how he tells his stories.

And in case you
didn't understand his vision...

He shot a proof of concept
of Ant-Man going through the motions

of going small to big and how
that could work cinematically.

Footage seen by Feige

and subsequently
the 2012 panel at Comic-Con.

Ant-Man will kick your ass
one inch at a time.

The crowd at Comic-Con went nuts.
They were wild for it.

Uh, everyone was so excited
to see Edgar Wright's Ant-Man movie.

And with
this enthusiastic reception,

Ant-Man had momentum,
but little did anybody know

that it was all about
to come off the tracks.

As Edgar Wright and Joe Cornish

began crafting the Ant-Man script,

it became apparent
that their usual way of doing things

was being met with resistance.

What Edgar Wright
wasn't anticipating

is that when he comes back
to finally make Ant-Man,

the Marvel Cinematic Universe
actually exists now.

Marvel needed it to be
feeling more like a Marvel film

and feeling like it gelled
with everything else.

And, by now, there
should be no surprise to anyone

that Feige's decisions are for the good
of the larger Cinematic Universe

and not just for the individual movie.

It's the Falcon!

And Ant-Man
would be no exception.

Kevin has the master plan of,

"This is the storyline
'cause it'll tie in with this later

and we wanna add this character
to get in there."

Edgar, he just wanted a standalone film.

They couldn't even
agree on casting the star.

There is a disagreement
over who to cast as Ant-Man.

Edgar Wright is really pushing
for Paul Rudd.

Meanwhile...

Marvel is preferring
Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

And the reason
may not have entirely been based

just on his skills as an actor,

especially when you consider
other casting choices they've made.

They're all men
in their late 30s and 40s,

and they wanted
to cast someone younger.

Who is the new Ant-Man?

Well,
Paul Rudd obviously got the job.

Would you like to try
our Mango Fruit Blast?

How can you go wrong
when you've got Paul Rudd?

And for the original Ant-Man,

Dr. Hank Pym, producer's first choice

was the prolific character actor
Steve Buscemi.

How do you do, fellow kids?

But he was unavailable,
so the role was offered to...

Legendary Michael Douglas.

It was also announced
that Patrick Wilson

would be joining the cast in a...

mysterious, undisclosed role.

All we knew was that he was,
"im-por-tant."

For the role of Hope Van Dyne,

Hank's rebellious daughter,
Emma Stone, Jessica Chastain,

and Rashida Jones
were all in consideration.

However, it was
Evangeline Lilly who was the favorite.

She's great.

But still
had yet to sign the dotted line

because mere months
before production began,

the tug-of-war between
Edgar Wright and Kevin Feige

became difficult to ignore.

It became an issue
of them going back and forth

and realizing like,
"Oh, you're really not gonna

address that note?"
And the other side realizing,

"Oh, you're really not
gonna stop giving that note?"

But one way or the other,
Feige's notes would be done.

Marvel has a couple of their
in-house writers take a stab

at writing a draft of the screenplay.

And for Edgar,
enough was enough.

Once the rewrite
happened without him,

I think he felt like a lot
of his voice was--was gone.

There was a feeling of, like,
"It's Marvel's way or the highway."

After nearly a decade
of slow but smooth sailing,

Marvel and Edgar Wright
had hit the rocks.

You know,
tonally when it doesn't fit in

with everything else
that Marvel's trying to create,

I think sometimes it just breaks too far,
and then that's what happened here.

Eventually, it's announced that
Edgar Wright is leaving Ant-Man.

His departure sent shockwaves

around the world,
splitting fans down the middle.

If you watch
any Edgar Wright film...

Never taken a shortcut before?

...this quirkiness
of those characters...

...and the pacing, the beats,
they're--they're just... so specific.

Edgar Wright says
that he wanted to make

a Marvel movie,
but he's not sure they wanted

- to make an Edgar Wright movie.
- That's a shame.

As a writer/director,
Edgar Wright was the consummate auteur.

However, with Kevin Feige,
he'd met his match.

The auteur was Feige.
He was the one overseeing everything.

And despite the best efforts
of everyone involved,

there was no going back.

When I contacted Edgar about it,

he didn't even want to discuss it.

He just couldn't even talk about it.

He just put it behind him
and moved on to the next project.

Once Edgar Wright was out,

the entire film began to crumble.

The project also lost
its cinematographer, Bill Pope,

and its composer, Steven Wright.

No production designer,

no stunt coordinator, no AD.
They all left with Edgar.

Then another bombshell.

Patrick Wilson decided to leave
the project when Edgar Wright left.

And if they weren't leaving,
they were thinking about it.

We don't have time for coddling.

Evangeline Lilly,
she hadn't signed

her contract yet, so she got
to sit back and watch

and see what would happen
before she came on board.

Wha--What?

Ant-Man
was holding on by a thread,

and the studio needed to right the ship.

With no time to lose,
Marvel exec Lou D'Esposito

- sought out a familiar face.
- Lou called and he's like,

"Where are you?"
And I'm like, "I'm in New Orleans."

He goes, "When are you done?"
I'm like, "In two weeks."

He's like, "All right,
I'm gonna give you one week,

and you need to get to Georgia
as soon as possible." I'm like, "Okay."

And help started
to arrive from unexpected places.

Uh...

Paul Rudd
calls up his friend Adam McKay,

the writer/director of Anchorman...

Which, of course,
starred Paul Rudd.

Out of sight, my man.

...and asked him to come
and help work

- on the screenplay with him.
- He's a big deal.

Also, a big director.

I always figured Adam McKay
was gonna direct it.

I think that was the initial thought.

He didn't want to step
on Edgar's toes and, you know,

the bones of the screenplay
are still Edgar and Joe's,

and he had come in and just kind of
addressed what Marvel's notes were.

And so, McKay began
adding things and cutting them.

There was a plane sequence

where they take out a plane.
I think that got taken out.

Originally, there was gonna be
a big car chase. That got taken out.

And by the time they were done,
they'd created a kind of heist movie

based around ex-con Scott Lang,

who ends up with a most amazing suit

and with the help of Hank Pym
and his daughter Hope Van Dyne,

he saves the world from certain doom.

And so, they had a script.

Now all they needed was a director.

We're just prepping without a director.

They looked at Rawson Thurber,

Ruben Fleischer, David Wayne...

We're heading in the right direction.

But in the end,
they chose someone

who'd been in consideration to direct

Guardians of the Galaxy,
Peyton Reed,

but he certainly wasn't an obvious choice

with an up-and-down career
in romantic comedies

such as Down with Love,
The Break-Up, and Bring it On.

He was a bit of a risk,
and he'd definitely

never done a superhero film before.

But thankfully...

This is not a democracy,
it's a cheer-ocracy.

...when it came to Marvel,
Peyton Reed was eager to bring it on.

He was originally gonna do
a Fantastic Four movie that,

as he said, was gonna be like
A Hard Day's Night

with superheroes. And I'm like,

"Make that!" You know?
Like, I hope he still does.

So, Marvel asked Peyton

- to direct Ant-Man.
- He said, "Yes."

And then all of a sudden,
"Hey, it's Peyton Reed. Great."

So, they had a director and soon

all the other recently vacated roles
began to be filled.

As soon as I heard that Peyton
was gonna be the director,

I called my agent and said,
"Listen, we really need to go after this."

Which was surprising,
considering Russell's stellar reputation

as James Cameron's favorite DP

and his Oscar-winning work on Titanic.

I really lobbied
to get on because I really wanted

to have the challenge of something that is

as complex as a Marvel motion picture.

- Dr. Pym?
- Yes, I'm still alive.

I had actually
worked with Michael Douglas before,

and he might've said a good word for me,

and Peyton said yes,
and--and away we went.

Also added was
the in-house production designer,