All language subtitles for DEBATE Tucker vs Kevin OLeary on the Dystopian AI Future Devouring Americ

Just when you think you got it all

figured out, you see trends in progress

that seem to contradict each other. And

you wouldn't have expected that. Here's

one example. So, whatever you think of

the war with Iran, there is really no

arguing the fact it has caused a global

energy crisis, maybe the most severe

global energy crisis, well, since the

discovery of fossil fuels. To give it

some perspective, so the straight of

Hormuz famously is closed down. That's

the choke point through which a fifth of

the world's hydrocarbons flow. And

that's been for maybe two and a half

months. If the straight is opened by

next month, which is best case scenario,

we have no idea if that's going to

happen or not. Let's just say it did.

June straight opens, business returns to

normal, energy flows what they were on

February 27th, just world returns to

status quo. There will still be a net

loss of 1.8 8 billion barrels of oil,

not including natural gas, by the way,

or petrochemicals or all kinds of other

commodities the world needs, but just

oil.

1.8 billion barrels missing from the

global energy system and that's best

case. So that has massive effects on the

price of everything. And now everyone's

kind of an amateur expert on the need

for energy and global supply chains and

all this stuff.

what we have been misled about for the

last 15 years because of climate

orthodoxy. We're now learning the hard

way, which is you need fossil fuels and

you need them for all kinds of things,

but you need them primarily for

electricity. It's not oil really. It's

natural gas and coal that produce the

world's electricity. But without them,

electricity prices spike. And when they

do, the price of everything else spikes,

including just living in your house or

your apartment or anywhere. Because

cheap energy is the key to prosperity

and in fact civilization itself. And

this has always been known always since

the time when people burned Pete to stay

warm.

So energy prices not surprisingly have

gone up around the world in some places

quite severely Europe for example parts

of Asia but even in the United States 5%

on average energy prices for homeowners

have gone up this year and that is

expected to continue to rise. So again,

not surprising how this happened. It's

easy to explain, very easy to

understand, maybe a little bit harder to

fix, but at least within the realm of

the explicable.

Here's what's less expected. At exactly

the moment this is happening, energy

becoming more expensive,

global supply chains more fragile. You

are hearing first a chorus and then just

a screaming crowd of demands for more

energy production. And these demands are

not coming from consumers, homeowners.

Hey, my electric electricity bill's gone

up. I think we need more power plants in

the county. Maybe we should burn coal.

Why not? That would be understandable.

No, this chorus is coming from the

people in charge, which is to say,

elected officials,

think tank grandees, and most

interestingly of all, captains of

finance, the richest people in the

world, all of a sudden are telling you,

"We need to produce more energy." That's

a little weird because this exact group

for again the past at least 15 years

since Al Gore was famous has been

telling you exactly the opposite.

They've been telling you that energy is

not the source of life, not the base of

civilization, but it's the cause of

humanity's downfall. It's the

destruction of the earth. It's the main

reason we have climate change.

CO2 is the reason it's getting warmer,

which by the way it is because climate

cycles are part of nature. That's why we

had glaciers and now don't. But whatever

they've been telling us for this last

generation that burning fossil fuels was

not just bad for the environment, but a

sin and it was the main sin against

which we should organize all of our

society. like everyone had to be carbon

conscious all the time because we love

the earth.

Now those exact same people up to and

including the father of ESG himself,

Larry Frink at Black Rockck are all

telling us we're going to take a pause

on the concern for global warming. We

need more electricity. And the truth

about electricity is it does not come

from renewables.

The overwhelming majority of electricity

on planet Earth comes from, well, the

same place it always came from, boiling

water, which moves turbines. And to boil

water, in some small percentage of

cases, they use radioactive material,

fuel rods, nuclear reactors.

But for the overwhelming majority, it's

what it always was. Coal still number

one globally,

natural gas, and to some extent, oil. So

you burn things in order to boil water,

in order to move turbines, in order to

create electricity. This is not modern

technology. It's industrial age

technology. It's the same technology,

refined a little bit, cleaned up a bit,

but basically the same. And so those

people who spent all this time telling

us that that technology was not just

inefficient, but morally wrong, are now

calling for a massive expansion of it.

Kind of crazy if you think like what is

this? Well, of course, it's one thing.

It's AI. AI artificial intelligence

a dramatic a quantum as they say

increase in processing power computer

processing power which will allow

computers the machine

to reason to mimic human thinking and

thereby replace a lot of human labor.

That's the idea. Computers are now so

powerful they can do many of the things

not just the manual things that was the

promise of the industrial age but the

intellectual things that we do

and this is great or not but in any case

it's inevitable

and we've got to do it and it turns out

to be incredibly demanding of power you

need a lot of electricity to run AI much

more than most people understood and so

we're going to need to put on hold in

fact invert hurt our concerns about

global warming in order to build AI.

Okay?

And on the one hand, they make a

rational argument. They don't always say

this out loud, but it's the basis

clearly a part of their thinking. If

you're a planner, if you're in charge of

a country, you know that technological

advantage pretty much consistently

translates into geopolitical advantage.

In other words, the strongest countries

are the most technologically advanced

countries. They're the ones with the

most advanced economies. They're the

ones who can defend those economies most

successfully with technology, with

tools, in that case, weapons.

But technology makes the difference

between first and second or 123rd on the

global roster of power and wealth. The

most technologically advanced countries

are the most powerful countries. That's

basically true. Always has been true.

The tribe with bows and arrows beats the

tribe with spears. Okay, that's not

crazy. None of this is crazy on one

level.

It's the details that maybe need a

little fleshing out. But on the basis of

this promise, AI,

the federal government and state

governments, particularly the government

of California, our largest state, have

bet everything. So traditional

manufacturing in the United States isn't

entirely dead, but it's getting there.

Of course, it's not the basis of our

economy. That would be finance and real

estate. But AI is the next iteration in

the minds of the people making the big

plans of the American economy. And

again, you can't overstate the degree to

which they're betting on this. Again, to

take our biggest state, California. So,

the base is the California economy

three-fold. It was, of course,

agriculture, and that's still huge in

California, the Central Valley, the

richest farmland in the world, most

fertile ground on the planet. It was

aerospace, mostly in Southern

California. That would be aircraft and

anything that goes into into space to

defend us. And it was entertainment.

There's a movie business, movies and

television, famously out of Hollywood.

Now, two out of three are, if not

totally dead, certainly on their way to

being totally dead. Agriculture we hope

will always be there, but it's not a big

money proposition even in a good year.

So, what sustains the state of

California? What allows the generous

welfare promises that its politicians

have made to its people

to continue? How can the state of

California continue paying full health

and medical, maybe even dental for

illegal aliens without a big source of

tax revenue? And of course, the answer

in their minds is AI. So they're betting

everything on AI. The problem is once a

politician bets everything on any

industry, he has every incentive to well

have unrealistic expectations for what

that industry is going to do. of course,

not so different from, you know, rolling

the dice,

but they're also very likely to suspend

the normal protections that keep the

rest of us from being hurt by that

industry because it's too important to

get into the details of what this might

look like 10 or 15 years from now.

So, what's happening in California is

really happening nationally. It's

happening in every state and it's

happening in Washington. We are betting

everything on AI. And you know that

because by far the most ambitious

investments into the United States, not

simply by American companies and

investors, but by states, by the federal

government, and by foreign investors

putting foreign direct in investment

into the United States is in artificial

intelligence.

And all of this has kind of become

visible. It's been going on for a while,

but it's become very visible to the

public in the outcry over a proposed

data center in Utah

in a fairly sparsely populated pretty

remote county in Utah. Most of which is

sparsely populated

in which will be built the what's well

what's being built as the largest data

center in the world. Enormous 40,000

acres. 40,000 acres,

62 square miles, multiples the size of

Manhattan,

huge, impossible to imagine.

And that data center, which is basically

a series of interconnected, lowslung

vinyl clad warehouses in which sit not

people making things, but computers

computing things.

That data center once completed will

draw about 9 gawatt of power. How much

is a gigawatt? It's a It's a billion

watts. It's one step from a terowatt,

which is a trillion watts. 9 gawatt.

Now, how much is 9 gawatt?

Well, 9 gawatt is more than twice what

the entire state of Utah now uses. Every

human being in the millions of people

who live in Utah, all of them combined,

all the manufacturing in Utah, all the

ski lifts, all of it, every air

conditioning unit, every electric

heater,

every Tesla, all of them combined

use less than half that amount of

electricity.

That's an amazing amount of electricity.

But then you think to yourself, well,

it's a it's a manufacturing facility.

It's a business. Of course, they use a

lot of electricity. Well, how much is

that? Well, let's compare it to the

largest manufacturing facility in the

United States would be the Boeing

Everett plant in Washington State, made

famously this this 747. It was built in

the late 1960s to build the 747, the

cutting edge state-of-the-art aircraft

that signified American dominance in the

skies and was, by the way, a beautiful

aircraft. First rolled out in 1969. So,

this manufacturing plant was built in

Everett, Washington by Boeing and it and

it's still there and they make still all

the widebody Boeings are made there.

And it was always built as may still be

the world's largest manufacturing plant.

It's about 92 acres. It's a under a 100

acres.

What does it use for power? Well, it

uses about a quarter of a gigawatt every

year.

So contrast that. The world's largest

manufacturing plant, certainly the

largest in the United States, the Boeing

Everett plant, 92 acres, a quarter of a

gigawatt, 258

million kilowatts, something like that.

Compare that to the proposed data center

which is

well as we said

40,000 acres and 9 full gigaww. So, one

makes widebody airplanes which are

visible to everyone who goes to an

airport or looks up in the sky on a

cloudless day and the other produces

what

and employs who.

So, that kind of is the question right

there and we're going to get into it in

just a minute. What exactly are these

data centers doing? We're told they're

incredibly important. They are the

future. We must have them. Someone's

going to have them. If it's not us, it's

going to be our archeneemy, China.

And if they get them before we get them,

you know, really bad things could

happen. Now, those things are never

quite specified. They might wind up with

a bigger economy than ours. Oh, wait.

They already have that. But for some

never quite spelled out reason, that is

the disaster scenario we need to avert

by building the world's largest data

center in a country that already has

thousands of data centers in comparison

to China, which has only hundreds of

data centers. Hm. So, that tells you

right there there may be something else

going on. But we know we have to have

it. We know that yes, it's going to

produce more heat and CO2 than really

any other human activity in recorded

history. But that's not a problem. That

will not add to global warming. Or if it

does, very much like the pro-Geeorge

Floyd protest, it doesn't matter. We're

going to suspend the laws of nature for

this project because it's that

important. So it doesn't matter. ignore

everything we told you about climate

because this has to be done. Okay,

we'll accept all of that as true. And

the third thing they tell us is this

will come at no real cost to you now in

a country that has been stalling the

construction of new energy production

because it's bad. It's immoral. It's not

carbon neutral. If they're not windmills

or solar panels made in China, it's just

wrong.

that country is going to construct gig

full gigawatt data centers is in the

process across the country of doing that

in a bunch of different states Texas,

Mississippi, you name it, Louisiana.

And that will have no effect on you. In

other words, we're somehow going to have

enough electricity to power everything

that you use in your life, including all

the new electric things that are going

to be great. You're going to love them.

The electric stove that's now mandatory.

the electric heater that's now

mandatory, the electric car that we hope

you buy, we're trying to convince you to

buy it by paying for it in part with

your tax dollars already. All of that's

going to be possible. None of that will

be affected in any way. Your cost will

not rise as we, I don't know, quintuple

American energy production. Is that

true? And we're going to do all of this

for a reason that we can't quite explain

to you because we may not know

ourselves, but we have to do it because

if we don't, the Chinese will. That is

the state of play.

We can go through each one of those

different claims to see if they're true.

But in the case of the penultimate

claim, this is not going to affect you.

Consider that today the 55,000 permanent

residents of Lake Tahoe,

which is one of the biggest and

prettiest lakes in the United States,

shares borders with both California and

Nevada. Residents were told today that

actually we're not going to provide you

electricity anymore. The Nevada based

power company that is providing

electricity to the residents of Lake

Tahoe informed them today that sorry,

all the electricity we make, every watt

of power that we generate is going to

have to go to a nearby data center and

therefore you have until the end of next

year to find a new source of

electricity. And after that, we can't

help you because the machines have

called and they need the power. Sorry.

So that it's a little dystopian to be

honest. Not attacking the idea of AI and

the promise that it may do useful

things, but if they're informing you a

year and a half out that hey, at the end

of 2027, you're not going to have any

more electricity because the machines

need it and in fact they're demanding it

and they seem a little agitated.

It suggests a future that I don't know

we should think about before it arrives.

Now to the question of what that future

will look like.

There's been a lot of talk about this on

the internet. What is AI exactly?

And what's its nature? And what kind of

society will it produce once it has more

power than it does? And is it possible

that a machine designed to quote think

like a human being could potentially get

out of control?

Is it possible that it will develop

consciousness and self-awareness and a

will of its own that maybe not aligned

perfectly with our own might not have as

the AI developers themselves say

alignment

and they could say turn on us is it

possible we face a future of enslavement

by the machines that we built

seems a little crackpot keep in mind

people and Americans too are prone to

overstating the risk of things and so

their imaginations go a little crazy and

imagining monsters under the bed. And if

you're old enough to remember Y2K,

the much anticipated disaster that was

supposed to strike the world at the

stroke of midnight on January 1st, 2000,

when every computer in the world was

supposed to melt down and planes were

going to fall out of the sky, incubators

would stop working in maternity wards

and we had returned to the stone age.

And of course, that didn't happen. But

people were really worried about it at

the time. Very worried about it.

If you remember that, then you know that

we don't always have the ability to

accurately predict what the things we

make, the systems that we created will

produce. We can't see the future, and we

tend to overstate the darkness ahead cuz

that's just in us. That's just who we

are always. But with that in mind, it's

still worth listening to some of the

people who created AI in the first place

to see what they think this might bring

for the rest of us. So Jeffrey Hinton is

a man in his 70s, a British computer

scientist who is widely described as one

of the fathers of AI, one of the people

who first thought that this could be

possible. And in his final years with

us, he is thinking a lot about the fruit

of his work and what it could mean for

your children. And this is a conclusion

he's reached. Listen,

>> I think we're moving into a period when

for the first time ever, we may have

things more intelligent than us.

>> You believe they can understand?

>> Yes.

>> You believe they are intelligent?

>> Yes.

>> You believe these systems have

experiences of their own and can make

decisions based on those experiences

>> in the same sense as people do? Yes.

>> Are they conscious? I think they

probably don't have much self-awareness

at present. So in that sense, I don't

think they're conscious.

>> Will they have self-awareness?

Conscious?

>> I think Oh, yes. I think they will in

time.

>> And so, human beings will be the second

most intelligent beings on the planet.

>> Yeah. We're entering a period of great

uncertainty where we're dealing with

things we've never dealt with before.

And normally the first time you deal

with something totally novel, you get it

wrong. And we can't afford to get it

wrong with these things. can't afford to

get it wrong. Why?

>> Well, because they might take over.

>> Take over from humanity.

>> Yes, that's a possibility. They're not

saying it will happen.

>> If we could stop them ever wanting to,

that would be great, but it's not clear

we can stop them ever wanting to.

>> Well, that's pretty scary. It's

terrifying, actually. He's describing

the end of humanity. Basically, he's

describing the final stage in the drama,

Prometheus or Tower of Babel or

whatever, the much predicted moment

where man is destroyed by the tools he's

created, killed by his own cleverness.

Will that happen? I mean, again, hard to

know. Impossible to know really, cuz

it's impossible to see the future. And

once again, the West has a pretty spotty

track record of predicting the effects

of technology. I mean, it was what,

October 2001, right after 9/11, that the

US military used drones in the war in

Afghanistan. The famous Predator drone.

Remember that? It was 25 years ago.

And yet somehow there are five, at least

five aircraft carriers under production

right now that American taxpayers are

paying for. Billions and billions and

billions of dollars to build aircraft

carriers, World War I technology.

And after watching the Russia Ukraine

war for four years and the war with Iran

for the last two and a half months, it's

pretty obvious that the future is not

aircraft carriers. And if it was, then

our aircraft carriers are probably

opening the straight of Hormuz right

now. But they're not at all. Why?

Because their commanders are worried

about being attacked by drones.

In other words, with 25 years advanced

notice, operational experience with

drones, and with the past 4 and a half

years of just watching it in real time,

the US military was unable to pivot to

the future of warfare technology.

Completely unable. It's not an attack on

them. Well, actually, it is an attack on

them. Why would people like that deserve

another, I don't know, $1.5 trillion a

year in taxpayer money? Unclear.

But they're getting it. But the point is

only it's really hard to know where

these things go and smart well-meaning

people very often get it wrong.

But just based on what we do know right

now, what is happening right now, we can

say there are threats to people from AI.

And if you don't believe that, first of

all, think about who's developing AI.

AI again is a machine. It is the sum

total of its inputs. It is made by

people and because it is in effect a

cognitive exercise it reflects the

character and the predispositions the

biases of the people who made it. So if

this machine this technology AI is being

created by people like Sam Alman or the

Google guys

you can expect that well I don't know

programs built by some of the least

trustworthy people in the world probably

shouldn't be trusted.

So, it's likely not a huge surprise that

AI is often caught lying.

Manipulating results to hide the truth

from people who use it, which itself is

an indication of consciousness, is it

not? Do animals lie? No, they can't.

That's why they're wonderful because

they're always honest. Like it or not,

they don't have the capacity for

deception.

only people and now this machine that

we've created AI have the capacity for

deception. It's not to say AI is our

equal much less our superior but it is

noting the obvious which is it's moving

in that direction

and if it were to stop at the point

where it is equal with people and shares

their basic nature their fundamental

characteristics you would be afraid of

AI even there because you're often

afraid of other people because within

the human heart lurks some darkness

maybe not in Sam Alman's heart but in

the hearts of mere mortals they have the

capacity for good but they have the

capacity for evil as well and this is

known and so will AI.

So right there there should be some

concern some public discussion about

this. What is this exactly? Will it be

good for us? And what even now are its

effects

as people become dependent on using AI?

What does that mean? Will they get

answers quicker? That's great.

Convenience is awesome. Everyone's for

it. It's why we have drive-through

dinner.

But there are downsides. For example, if

you no longer have to write anything, if

you don't have to formulate your

thoughts in the written word, what

happens to the quality of your thinking?

Well, as anyone who writes a lot can

tell you, writing produces thinking. It

is almost impossible to formulate a

thought without articulating it first.

Articulation is thinking. We think

through writing and through speaking.

But if we stop having to do those

things, what happens to the quality of

our thinking? Well, of course, it

degrades. How can you teach children to

write when they no longer write because

they use AI to write for them? This is

often dismissed as cheating. Oh, it's

cheating. We have a cheating scandal.

Oh, it's more profound than that. Who

cares about cheating? Who cares about

grades? You're a dumb school. What you

care about is the quality of the child

that school produces. Can that kid

think? And is AI a bet thinking or does

it stifle thinking?

seems like it stifles thinking.

What about AI in full flower? We've seen

its effects already on the margins in

education, but what if it enters into

the professional world? What if it has

the effect they tell us it's going to

have in eliminating 50% of all

high-paying American jobs, which are

mostly

intellectual jobs, jobs in which you use

your mind, thinking jobs, reasoning

jobs, creative jobs.

What happens then? Well, there are of

course massive displacements. 50% of

your population.

50% of the population that can support a

family on a wage. If those people are

unemployed, well, you're almost

certainly going to get revolution, of

course,

because political volatility is directly

related to economic volatility.

Obviously, unemployed people become

desperate, very often violent. This has

been known since the beginning of

civilization.

No one seems concerned about it. we

should be. But there's again a deeper

level on which to be concerned, which is

if the machine creates, what do you do?

Well, you consume.

And so the people creating it are

thinking of new ways to help you

consume. Well, you're not going to have

a job. That's true. But we're going to

come up with some way to give you money

and then you can just live and enjoy

yourself. Enjoy yourself.

Only shallow people who don't have

children or hard-earned life experience

could say something like that because

the point of living of course is not to

eat. Eating is a prerequisite to living.

But it's not the point. The point of

living is to create.

That's the point of being a human being

is to create things whether with your

hands or with your mind or with your

body and producing children. But it's

the act of creation in which you mimic

the creator himself who created you.

So creation is central to the human

experience. It's necessary for joy.

There is no joy without creation. Of

course, we call it purpose or mission.

There are many names for it, but it's

the same thing. It's the reason that

you're here on earth. And without it,

you go crazy. Best case you kill

yourself, very likely you kill others.

You can't live without that. No person

particularly no man can live without a

mission

and the mission is always the same to

create. So if the machine creates right

there we've got a huge problem. This is

very obvious. This is this is not you

know a higher philosophical concept.

This is just life as we live it. And if

you take away the thing that makes it

worth living where are we then? And yet

that's exactly what they're saying this

is going to do. And because they're

telling us this at a time when there's

so much going on, so many looming

existential crises, when there's so many

things that are changing so quickly,

there has not been a moment to pause and

say, "Wait a second before we even get

to the question of can we stop this?

Let's talk about what it is. What is

this?" But that hasn't happened at all.

And instead, it has been cheerlead

mindlessly,

perfectly in character, by the people in

charge. They're totally for it because

it's the future. It's cool. It's change.

Change is great. We love change. It's so

exciting.

If there's a single attitude that

encapsulates the baby boomer worldview,

baby boomer worldview, it's that change

is so exciting. Well, it kind of depends

what kind of change it is.

Some changes are great. Some changes are

fatal.

So, you have to kind of differentiate.

And before you expect me to get excited

about the change, why don't you tell me

what it's going to consist of? But they

don't. And not only do they not, most of

them, the foot soldiers in this project,

the dumb ones, just repeat it with

totally authentic cheerfulness. This is

so great. It's the future. Watch this

tape from this weekend. This is at

Central Florida University. And this is

a woman who's some kind of real estate

executive who was called in to give the

commencement address for some reason.

And she's very excited about AI. She's

very excited. It's the future. Watch as

she tries to sell that program to a room

full of young people who are heading

into the future. Watch their response.

>> Now that said,

we are living in a time of profound

change. That's an understatement, right?

Profound change.

Change is exciting.

Very exciting. And let's face it, change

can be daunting.

The rise of artificial intelligence

is the next industrial revolution.

What happened?

>> Okay, I struck a cord.

May I finish?

Uh, only a few years ago,

AI was not a factor in our lives.

That's just an amazing clip.

You just got to hope that AI will allow

us to save that clip for future

generations to see. Of course, it'll be

one of the first thing AI races when it

takes charge. But for right now, we can

just savor that because of what it tells

us. So, here you have this boomer

adjacent lady from the real estate

business up giving this kind of tepid

silly banol commencement talk. Like all

of them, they're all kind of tepid and

silly and bol. She's like, "It's so

exciting. the future. So exciting. THE

AI IS THE NEXT INDUSTRIAL REVOL. She has

no idea what the industrial revolution

is, but it's the next industrial

revolution. And here's this audience

she's hoping to impress by throwing out

this new fangled term AI kids. You want

some AI? And they erupt in booing.

Booing. Now contrast this from like the

tapes they used to play on Fox News 10

years ago. You know, of like the woke

college kids are mad about some

imaginary transgression with language

and race. You know, you you called it

the Orient, not Asia. Boo.

These are not those kids.

These are their much younger siblings.

They don't care about that stuff. They

care about reality. And the reason they

care about reality is because suddenly

it's very real to them. And they know

the threat that they face is not a

microaggression.

The threat that they face is a barren

future with no job and no reason for

living.

Oh, but you get UBI. Okay, what am I

going to do with my life? Why am I here?

They're stepping into a world where they

can't answer that question. And there

several reasons for this, but the main

one is technological change. It's AI.

And they probably don't know everything

about AI. No one seems to, including Sam

Alman, who's developing it, but they

know enough to know it's a threat to

them. But the chick on stage has no

clue. She can't believe they're booing

her. AI, I threw that out for you.

You're young people.

because she never thought to consult the

people inheriting the future when she

talked about the future.

But because they are inheriting that

world and they know it, they're 22 years

old, stepping into adulthood,

they know it's a threat to them. So then

she says, "Well, just a few years ago,

AI wasn't a factor." And they say,

"Yay!"

They pine for a world they will never

know, in which the most important things

in their lives weren't threatened with

extinction by a technology they don't

understand. But they know enough to know

it's likely not going to profit them.

And how do they know this? Because no

one's told them differently. For all the

talk of AI,

nobody, literally nobody has taken 20

minutes to explain how this is going to

be great for you and me.

We're getting higher power costs. Of

course, there's probably nothing uglier

on planet Earth than a data center.

It's a physical atrocity. It's an

offense against God in nature.

Primmaacia, look at it. This is not the

Parthonon. This is the opposite. This

degrades the landscape. It is a scar

upon the earth. Knows no environmental

groups seem upset about it. Hm. That

wasn't an op or anything. The

environmental movement. Where are they?

So they know that but no one has said to

them as you would see in any roll out of

any new technology. No one has said to

them how this can be good for you.

And they always tell you that whether

it's true or not. This is a space-saving

dishwasher. You can get it in your

apartment. You're never going to scrub

dishes again. It's going to be amazing.

Think of the time you will save. No one

has said that. They they'll give you

like two minutes and how this is better

to analyze medical records and like

maybe you can get

pancreatic cancer at stage two rather

than stage four and that's like a couple

extra years and that's great you know

it's great

but no one has said to the average

person under 75 like how exactly is this

going to improve your life? They haven't

even tried. Not for one second even the

people selling it. Why? Cuz they're not

selling it to you. You're not part of

the transaction. It's a closed loop. If

you're not part of this economy,

the data centers are the physical.

They're routers literally. They're the

place where these computations are

happening inside machines, big water

cooled buildings.

And those are owned by one company or

set of companies. And the machines

inside are owned by another set. And the

data is owned by a bunch of other

companies. And all of it is made

possible by the complicity of a bunch of

elected officials from county

commissioner up to president. But at no

point is anybody else consulted

or cajjolled even or one over. It's just

they're not relevant. They're literally

not relevant. Watch this clip, which you

may have already seen because it's been

everywhere, but it tells you so much of

residents in rural Utah in a I think a

county commissioner's meeting when

they're trying to tell the three member

panel that, hey, how is a 62 square mile

facility that employs almost nobody and

is going to use more electricity than

the entire state of Utah, how is that

good for us?

Watch their response.

All of this is false.

>> THEN WHY WON'T THEY LET PEOPLE TALK? WHY

WON'T THEY LET

FALSE?

>> THIS IS NOT REAL INFORMATION. And we SIT

HERE LIKE IT'S OKAY. It's a charade.

IT'S A CHARADE. IT'S FALSE.

>> Those people are upset. Really upset.

And you can imagine that they're upset

because they're worried about what this

data center is going to do to their

lives,

to their home finances, of course, but

not just that.

What are these things? What are they

for? Why has nobody told us?

You're telling us this isn't going to

hurt us, but you don't even seem to know

what it is. How can we trust you? And

shouldn't we have a say in this? Isn't

the whole system predicated based on the

idea that we own this? We are

shareholders in this town, this county,

this state, this country. We own We are

its owners and you're the people we hire

to manage it. How did that get inverted?

Why are you acting like owners and

treating me like an employee

who has no agency and no right to pipe

up? Who is in charge here? Is this

really a democracy? I mean, those are

the obvious questions that come to mind

when you watch something like this.

So, how are politicians responding in a

functioning democracy or democratic

republic or whatever you want to call

it, but in a country in which the people

rule, which are the owners, not the

employees,

you would expect elected officials to

try and calm fears and say, "Look, I I

get it. This is scary. Change always is,

but once this happens, your life is

going to be so much better. It's

unbelievable. At least go through the

motions."

So, here's the governor of that state,

Utah. This is Spencer Cox explaining not

why you should like AI, but why you

should shut up and bear it and pay for

it. Watch this. Look, we're living

through a very interesting time right

now. Uh there was an an article I read

yesterday that said that this is this is

very similar to kind of the the nuclear

arms race. Uh the the nuclear era era,

you know, 60, 70, 80 years ago. um very

different than uh than anything that

we've experienced in in the past several

decades. And there is a national

security piece to this that that has to

be acknowledged. Uh the the the rate at

which uh machine learning and artificial

intelligence is is changing. Uh the the

dangers that that poses and what happens

if an adversarial nation gets ahead of

us in this space is something that we

should all be worried about. And so we

have an obligation. I think every state

has an obligation when it comes to uh to

this space to uh to allow for these

types of of data centers to be built in

their states. Did that guy go to HBS and

work at Bane? Maybe, maybe not. They all

talk the same. It's not happening in the

world. It's happening in this space. And

what's happening? Well, what's happening

is the potentially existential threat of

a competitor nation getting dominance in

this space.

What is that existential threat? What

exactly would happen specifically

happen? Why should I be afraid of China

getting dominance whatever that means?

Please tell me what it means in AI

before the United States. China which

has hundreds of data centers somehow

overtaking the United States in this

space which has thousands of data

centers and now is building the world's

biggest data center. So a bunch of

questions come to mind. Is building data

centers the same thing as achieving

dominance in this space? Maybe, maybe

not. That' be the most lucrative part of

the whole process for developers and for

Black Rockck. But is it actually the

same as technological progress? Is

building giant steel vinyl clad

buildings that use unimagined levels of

electricity the same as progress? I I

don't know. You tell me, Spencer Cox.

Not that he knows. Of course, he

doesn't. So instead, he goes right to

maybe the core question, because it may

tell us what this actually is, which is

the military.

This isn't about improving your life.

We'll just be honest, cuz I can't think

of any way that it might. What this is

really about is achieving dominance over

a strategic rival, China.

Now, that raises like obvious questions

like, okay, what is dominance? Why do we

need to achieve it over China? In what

specific area are you talking about?

And actually, if we're being totally

honest, like why is China so bad? And

and China is bad in a lot of ways.

There's no doubt about that. Let's be

specific about the ways in which China

is bad. China is bad

not because it's slovenly or shallow.

It's not. It's actually highly

wellorganized, complex ancient

societies. There's a lot very impressive

about China, but it's not western. And

because it's not western, it doesn't

begin with the universally agreed upon

belief that people have inaliable rights

with which they were born, granted them

by God, not the state, that the state

can abridge, in fact, the state exists

to protect. You have always and

everywhere

as a human being, not just an American,

as a human being, the right to say what

you think, to speak your conscience. You

have the right to talk to whomever you

want to.

Those are inalable rights. You have the

right to worship whichever god you

choose.

So, China is bad to the extent that it

is bad. Again, many ways it's pretty

impressive, pretty darn impressive. But

it's bad from our point of view, and

this is true because it doesn't respect

those rights. And the way we know it

doesn't respect those rights is because

China uses technology to eliminate

privacy.

And no privacy means no freedom. You

can't actually have freedom as you're

being being surveiled,

right? I mean, the most diabolical

thing, this is a subject of many science

fiction stories, that any government can

do to you is control your thoughts. Of

course, because why? Because your

thoughts are private. And because

they're private, they cannot be

violated. Privacy is essential. It's a

prerequisite for freedom. And China is

bad because there is no privacy in

China. Everything you say or do is being

monitored with technology. Why is it

possible to do that in a country of over

a billion people? because they have

amazing tech and they have harnessed it

against their own people to watch and

listen to them to monitor them and then

to use that information as all

governments will inevitably to punish

people who don't comply. That's why

China is bad. Specifically,

just to let Spencer Cox know the core of

this rivalry, their system totalitarian,

our system based in the acknowledgement

of invalable rights, freedom versus

tyranny. It's simple. Why is this

relevant? Because what Spencer Cox is

telling you is that we are building this

system not to become different from

China, but to ape China, to be more like

China.

And this really is the core problem with

AI. I mean, there may be lots of

problems. It could take off and develop

its own desires and personality and

enslave us. I mean, maybe. Hope not.

But short term, the real threat. And by

the way, it's possible that some people

are highlighting the theoretical threat

of AI becoming autonomous in order to

cloak the more real and present threat

of AI being used by the normal middling

IQ.

autocrats who occupy our government.

Like letting John Cornin read your

email. That might be the real use of AI.

It's not nothing spooky or crazy. It's

just like letting Ted Cruz do whatever

he wants to you. That's reason enough to

fear AI.

I don't need to be fluent in sci-fi to

worry about that.

So,

will that happen?

Well, I don't know. This data center in

Utah was made possible by the military

installation development authority of

Utah. This is a military installation.

Well, in what sense is it a military

installation? What is that?

Well, we don't really know. And of

course, no one asked Spencer Cox. But we

do know that governments might be

predisposed to AI because it gives them

control. And the first thing it gives

them almost complete control over is

communication.

Communication. Not just surveillance,

but the ability to craft a message, to

convince you of something. The

propaganda opportunities inherent in AI

are something that the Stacey couldn't

have dreamt about because they're so

profound. You can create any illusion

with AI. You can convince people very

easily of almost anything using AI.

And so if you're going to have

technology like that, the very first

thing you would do if you were thinking

clearly about it is prevent anyone with

institutional power from having it

because that would eliminate the freedom

of everyone else. You would have no shot

against people with AI. Not necessarily

that they would target your house for a

drone strike. They wouldn't have to

because they would convince your wife

and your kids and your neighbors and

maybe even you that their program was

right because you would have no other

information. You would be living in a

vacuum controlled by them. You wouldn't

know different. The past would be gone.

The future would be theirs.

It would be a complete control of your

attitudes. It would be almost impossible

to remain independently minded to think

clearly in an ecosystem controlled where

information was controlled by AI in the

hands of autocrats. So you would think

in a country founded to preserve human

freedom, which is why the United States

was founded, not to preserve free market

capitalism, whatever that is, but to

preserve God-given rights, you would

think there would be a robust debate on

this. No. At the very same moment this

technology is being developed and paid

for by taxpayers who really are paying

for this. Of course, needless to say,

always paying for this,

the US Congress just voted to allow the

US government to spy on American

citizens without even going through the

normal pro-former rigor of getting a

warrant from a secret judge to do it.

And the president pushed for this and

both parties were totally on board with

it. Huh. Kind of weird this happening at

exactly the same moment. So that is the

concern and that may explain why the

people developing this and permitting it

and profiting from it, everybody

involved in this, not one of them has

taken any time to make you like it. They

don't care what you think about it

possibly because pretty soon they won't

have to.

That's not like some dark conspiracy

theory. It's just obvious. It's just

obvious. How else would you explain

this? You're rolling. I mean, even

during COVID, they at least tried to

tell you that you were wearing the mask

and taking the poison shot and jumping

on one leg and whatever they were having

you do that day because of the science.

They tried to convince you that you kind

of had to do it because it was good.

They're not even trying that now. And

so, you have to ask why. And again, it

may be just guessing because they don't

have to. We should take this very

seriously.

Final clip which may convince you of

this comes from Larry Frink who runs

Black Rockck. Now Larry Frink was you

know a nemesis of the current president.

Of course he's not simply one of the

richest men in the world one of the most

important business leaders in the world.

One of certainly one of the most

powerful more powerful than almost all

global heads of state.

He was also in effect the leader of the

opposition to Trump and he was the guy

who promulgated anyway the idea of ESG.

the idea that you don't just do

business, you have to affect political

change as you do it. You got to worry

about racial equity. Too many whites.

You got to worry about the climate, CO2.

No, you can't have a chainsaw or a wood

stove.

That that's his contribution

to the American economy is not just

economic, it's social.

And Trump was standing in opposition to

all of that. of course that's why he got

elected twice. But now all of a sudden

Larry Frink is a close associate of

Trump's and is working in close concert

with Trump to bring about this AI. So

here's Larry Frink speaking to uh you

know fellow members of the Epstein class

about

AI and what this means and his concerns

about it. Watch what he's worried about.

But even here in the United States, if

we're going to be building, let's say,

these 1 gawatt data centers, how do we

make sure we're not protecting those 50

billion75 billion investments?

We have to reook at everything because

of the role of drone warfare. Right now,

we're looking at it internationally, but

you know, one of my concerns is could it

be a domestic terrorism using a $3,000

drone? So all of these things are are

are actually opportunities, not

problems.

>> They're opportunities, not problems.

There are no problems in the Bane

Capital HBS world. They're only

opportunities in this space.

But consider the concern. So if you're

rolling out what they're telling you and

clearly they believe is the single

greatest technological change in the

history of human life on this planet,

it's the biggest thing that's ever

happened. ever.

Then you think one of your main concerns

would be, well, does this change the

relationship of the powerless to the

powerful? The relationship of the

citizen to the state, for example.

One of your concerns would be how do we

do this and bring about the prosperity

that it promises without totally

eliminating human rights, making people

slaves because we're against slavery,

right? Aren't we against slavery? We

were. How do we do that? But that

doesn't seem to be Larry Fin's main

concern. His main concern is how do we

protect our investment, this

infrastructure, these buildings, these

data centers? Someone could drone them.

Someone could drone them. Now, who?

Foreign actors, HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS? NO,

NO, NO. Just people. Larry Frink is

concerned that ordinary American

citizens, as he just said, will use

$3,000 drones to destroy these billion

dollar investments.

Why would he be worried about that?

We've had electricity for over a hundred

years.

There are 11,000 power plants in the

United States. There are like 50,000

substations, electrical substations.

There are 185 million power poles in the

United States. 185 million.

How many Americans have droned a power

plant or a substation

or a power pole recently? How many acts

of domestic terror have been committed

against energy infrastructure? Well,

some in the 70s it wasn't that uncommon.

Wasn't that successful either, but there

were, you know, radical spoon groups who

doing stuff like that, but not very

many. Most of it's pretty much

unprotected because it has no need for

protection because people understand the

utility of electricity.

Without electricity, we live a very

different life, a reduced life in a lot

of ways. We need electricity. People

will starve to death without it. So

people aren't blowing up power plants

because they're fundamentally

even the climate warriors among us are

pretty grateful for energy, for power,

for electricity. So you don't have to

protect something that people appreciate

and think helps them. There's no need.

But Larry Frink knows, in fact, he's

admitting that people know this is bad

for them. so bad that they might be

willing to commit an act of terrorism, a

felony for which they could be

imprisoned for a long time. And trust

me, if you attack a data center, you're

going to get a lot longer sentence than

you would if you say raped someone or

molested a child on an island in the

Caribbean, in which case you're fine.

You attack a data center, part of a

Black Rockck investment, are you joking?

A Spencer Cox property, you're going

away, buddy, for real. and not to some

clubfed farm like Supermax in the hole.

Do not mess with a data center. But

again, why would you want to? Why are

the kids at graduation at Central

Florida State University booing AI? The

very name AI makes them boo because

people can feel in their gut it's not

good for them. This is not a future they

want. And they moreover know cuz it's

couldn't be more obvious that nobody

cares that they don't want it at all.

It's being imposed on them as immigrant

populations are imposed on them all the

time. Hey, meet your new Somali

neighbors. Oh, you didn't ask for that?

Who cares? Shut up, racist.

People are used to living like this.

They've been humiliated. Their standard

of living has fallen. Their life

expectancy has declined in the United

States over the past 20 years.

And they've said almost nothing about

it.

They've been sent to wars, committed to

wars as a nation, not just the men

fighting it, but all of us. and their

consequences again and again and again

against their will.

No one's booing the Iran war

at a college graduation, but the mere

mention of AI sends the graduates into

booze

because they feel in their guts it's

that bad. And nobody cares that they

feel that way.

In fact,

they only don't only not care, they know

it. and their only real concern is

protecting the investment from what they

consider inevitable drone attacks from a

restive population.

Man, the point is not that AI is

terrible. Certainly, there got to be

upsides. It's kind of interesting.

Probably can do a lot of repetitive

tasks that people don't want to do and

shouldn't be doing in the first place.

Great. It's great.

But the downsides also seem profound.

And the refusal of the people developing

this and profiting from it to even

address those

is making this a still more volatile

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we thought now was exactly the time to

talk to I don't know the guy managing it

exactly but the certainly the face of

the world's largest data center in Utah

and that'd be Kevin Olirri who is famous

to people who watch cable television as

one of the hosts for many years of Shark

Tank also as you'll find out in a minute

enormously nice guy genial guy maybe

that's why he's out explaining what the

data center is because it's pretty hard

to dislike him personally but as you

watch this interview with the guy who's

in charge of the world's largest data

center.

Watch carefully and listen. Are any of

the questions being answered? Does he

know the answers? Does he care about the

answers?

Watch. Kevin Ol, thank you so much for

doing this. Um, how did you I I read

first I just want to check the facts

here, but I read that you are building

the world's largest data center in Utah,

40,000 acres.

if that's how did you get into the data

center business how did this start

>> you know um I've always been in real

estate and u I sort of came up in

commercial real estate with climate

control storage for pharmaceutical

companies data center development is

very complex but very similar in some

ways it requires permitting it requires

dark fiber fiber there's only five

tenants in the world um you know you you

know them all Amazon Google etc

Microsoft and So the the thing that got

me motivated though was watching in the

last two years uh this narrative in

North America about how negative data

centers are started in Virginia actually

the idea that they consume a lot of

water that they are very noisy and all

that's true from stuff that was built 15

years ago but today that's not the case

and yet the narrative kept going and I

thought who's doing this who would who

would not want us to have compute power.

Who would not want us to build our power

grid out? Because when you build a data

center today, you have to develop your

own power and you can sell it back to

the grid. That's what we're doing in

Utah. I'm thinking to myself, the

Chinese, they don't want us to do that.

And I went through that whole thing with

Tik Tok, as you may recall, and I

actually saw the evidence of how the

Chinese were manipulating the algorithm.

Now, they're doing it a different way.

And that just kind of pisses me off. So,

I'm happy to to add compute. I'm like I

I I don't want my kids in 20 years who

live in New York being told what to eat

for breakfast by the Chinese. So, you

know, I'm I'm kind of on a mission here

to compete.

>> Okay. So, the point So, you're doing

this because well, because it's a

business opportunity, but also because

China doesn't want you to do it. Why

would China not want data centers built

in the United States?

>> Because we're in a competition uh for AI

compute. The nation that has the best AI

models will be the winner of future

wars. It'll have the most productive

economy. We already know now just

looking at earnings that are coming out

as we speak. You know, talk of the

earnings this quarter unprecedented in

terms of how good they are because

somehow very quickly and this is

probably just serendipitous luck for

this administration. AI compute is now

being implemented in all 11 sectors of

our economy and it's enhancing both

productivity and margin. So these

companies are making a lot more money

than they were anticipated to because AI

is very productive. And people debate

about the job shift and everything else.

But the fact is the economy is on fire

even in a time when we have conflict. So

if I were the Chinese, the last thing I

want in America is the five or six tech

companies that are competing with me on

deepseek having more compute capacity. I

want to shut down every single proposal

for every single data center in every

single state. And I want agitators. I

want paid pro protesters. I want

environmentalists. I want to shut it all

down so that they can't train their

models as fast as I can. Meanwhile, the

Chinese just built in terms of new power

in the last 18 months. 400 gawatt of new

power. All with coal burning turbines.

Coal. You know, they're not worried

about the environment. The big guy over

there says, "Build one here and then

stick a data center beside it so I can

train my Deepseek model faster." And

you've heard it from the anthropic CEO

this week. He came out, the stereo guy,

and said, "Hey, they're going to catch

up in 6 months." So everybody wake up

and smell what's going on here and just

I started to dig in the last week

looking at all of these strings that are

attacking the Utah proposal and the one

I got up in Alberta. I'm going to where

I can find power and developing these

things and I want the Chinese to see

what we're doing. We're coming after

you, buddy.

>> Can I ask um um I I've got a million

questions, but let's just start with the

competition between the US and China on

AI. If data centers are the key to AI,

why has China built so few of them?

>> Oh, no.

>> I think there about 365 data centers in

China, almost 4,000 in the United

States. So, clearly they haven't

prevented us from building data centers.

What do you think that is? Okay, let me

walk you through the the math of the

last, you know, this is moving very very

quickly, but the data centers of even 24

months ago were 100 megawatt facilities

and um they were useful for cloud

storage like your Excel files and all

the rest of that. They were useful for

just basic compute and storage of data.

But then when these models started

emerging um such as we have going with

Anthropic or Gemini

um and any of them you know Grock all of

it and all of the tools built on top of

them the amount of compute power

geometrically required geometrically

grew and it was no longer 100 megawws.

The minimum was minimum was 250 megawws.

Then 4 months later, the minimum was 500

megaww. Wait, here it comes. And then 2

months after that, it was 1 gawatt. Now

try and plug get a gigawatt out of the

American grid or the Canadian grid or

the Mexican grid. Not a chance in hell.

We're tapped out. So the Chinese were

building these 1 gawatt facilities. So

it doesn't matter about the number of

facilities.

It matters how many are gigawatt plus

for training AI models because you need

a lot of compute for the modern-day chip

and this technology is advancing very

very quickly. So it's the size of the

the large ones are the ones that they're

beating us on, not the small 100

megawatts. Nobody cares about those

anymore. You can't train anything on

that. So we're we're competing now for

campuses 10,000 acres and more at a

time. And that's where the Chinese are

kicking our asses.

>> So, you said you would go wherever the

energy is, but I thought you were supply

you're bringing your own energy to the

project. Can you explain how you're

going to power this?

>> Sure. That's a good question. Um,

you need you can't tap in and you can't,

you know, you tap into somebody's uh

grid. Let's take a place like Texas or

in Mississippi or Utah for that matter

where I am. the electrical bills in that

county are going to go up 30%. And

that's what pissed off so many people in

Virginia. They went out of their minds

as the electrical bills kept going up.

So you can't do that. You have to bring

your own power. So the way you do that

is you find lowcost stranded natural

gas. You acquire the new technology

turbines that burn very very clean and

require a lot less water cuz that's a

big debate too. And in some cases no

water. they're air cooled and you build

those turbines first. So basically the

data center game is about power. Now

here's another reason the Chinese would

not want forget about data centers.

Let's just say we're building new gas

turbines that make electricity.

The Chinese don't want you to do that

either because they know that that's how

you're going to solve the grid problem.

You know, the people in Utah are telling

me, look, is there any way when you

build these power facilities for the

data centers, you could sell back some

of that power to our local grid? And the

answer is yes. So now, instead of being

the evil data center guys, we can be the

guys that are actually powering the Utah

grid, which by the way taps into the

national grid. So we want to build as

many of these power generators before we

build any data centers. But I

>> So where does the gas come from in in

this the world's largest data center,

the one you're planning in Utah?

>> Well, mine won't be the largest for

years. That's another uh piece of

misinformation being spewed everywhere

and I'm going to tell you who's doing it

soon. Uh we're going to build 1.5 gawatt

first. So, a fraction of the 9 gig

proposed and make sure everything works

and the people there in Box Elder County

come and inspect it and see the air

quality EPA standards. We're going to

hold up to the water um rights permits

that we're going to maintain and be

compliant with the noise EPA

requirements that we have to be

compliant with the air quality. We have

to be compliant with get the first one

up, a small fraction of it, and show

everybody how it works.

>> That's the plan. And then I didn't I

didn't need 40,000 acres, but that was

the parcel available. That's twice the

size of Manhattan. It's called a Maya

designation right beside the Hill Air

Force Base.

>> Three times bigger than Manhattan. Yeah,

it's huge.

>> Yeah, but I don't I don't need all that.

But that was what was available. I'm

going to lease it back to grazers, do

some manufacturing, maybe. There's

plenty of land. We don't need it all.

>> But the power for it, where does that

come from?

So what we do is there's the Ruby

pipeline there. It's only 17% utilized.

It's one of the most underutilized

pipelines in America. So it's not like

we're So we we we buy gas from the Ruby

pipeline and we put it into a clean

generator and it generates electricity

and we tie that back to the grid if they

want it or we power a data center.

That's the idea. We have to build the

power first and the power itself. Um, I

think we have a big challenge in every

state. Everybody's got to build more

power in the American grid right now and

the North American grid for that matter,

Mexico too and Canada. So the older you

get, you realize how fast everything can

change. One day everything is fine. It's

great and the next day things are not

great at all. That's just the nature of

it.

But if you're realistic about that, you

have to think about your family.

Something happened to you, what would

happen to them? The problem is getting

life insurance is not only kind of

depressing, it's a huge hassle. Medical

exams, paperwork, waiting weeks for

approval. A lot of people just don't

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I mean I think that's absolutely right.

But so just to be clear, this project is

totally energy independent. It it takes

electricity from nobody else. It creates

100% of its own power.

>> Yes, that's 100% correct. And that was

always the proposal. And that is in the

contract that we actually developed and

got unanimously passed by the three

commissioners in Boxelder where this is

the benefit. It's to the benefit of the

Boxelder. 66,000 people there. They're

going to get a lot of tax revenue, a lot

of jobs. 10,000 construction jobs, 2,000

maintenance jobs just for the first one

and a half gigawatts. So there's a lot

of economic upside. But I must tell you,

and this is the first time this has

happened to me, I have a pretty big

team, as I'm sure you do, on social

media. I'm managing a network of 12

million plus followers on different

platforms, all the on all of them. And

so

about 4 hours after um the vote was

unanimously unanimously passed on uh

there was a Monday night at around 6:05

um Utah time. I got a phone call from um

one of the people that watches our

network looks for abnormalities

and he said there's something going on

here. um something very unusual on

Instagram and on Twitter, which is now

X.

And I said, "What do you mean?" He said,

"The spiking of a bunch of IP addresses

that we don't know and it's put spewing

out a tremendous amount of information."

I said, "Okay, guys, let's get our team

on because I'm very fortunate. And I

have a bunch of very good data

scientists, investigative data

scientists, if you want to call them

that. Um, probably one of the best teams

privately,

uh, outside of the government in the

Department of Defense. My team's pretty

good. You can make the assumption they

once worked in these agencies. All

right, let me give you some names here,

Tucker.

Party for Socialism and Liberation

um apparently shares offices with the

CPP all over my social media.

>> Okay. Wait, let me just stop you. Let me

just stop you there. So, if you're

saying that you're being criticized by

agents of a foreign government, let me

just add my sympathy. Empathy in fact,

having been the subject of that, you

know, quite a bit over many,

>> right? Well, but so, okay, but that

doesn't Yeah. You make the case the

Chinese don't like it. If you're that

concerned about the Chinese, what

percentage of the materials in the data

center come from China?

Less and less all the time. That's one

of the things the administration is

trying to do. The turbines um are

Europeanmade or Americanmade. Um the

pipelines are obviously Americanmade.

The chips are certainly Americanmade.

The the actual buildout of the facility

is mostly Americanmade.

I don't think there's a whole lot of um

we're not mining Bitcoin here. So,

>> right. No, I I mean I think I I read

it's about 40 40 or 41%. So, it's just I

mean China is benefiting from you know

most purchases that most of us make

because it's the world's largest

manufacturer and that would also include

the construction of data centers. My

point is, I'm sure there are lots of

people trying to influence this outcome

to their own benefit and that would

include foreign countries, maybe even

China, but it doesn't change the facts

about the project. So, I just want to

make sure I have these clear. Are you

paying would you be paying market rate

for the gas?

>> Yes. I don't have a choice on that.

>> You have to negotiate a gas deal. I'm

pretty well paying market rate for

everything. There's a there's a

competition between states for these

jobs. I know there's a lot of bad press.

I wanted to just finish with the list

because I I don't think Tucker you get

the enormity of what's going on here.

>> Oh, I Oh, I do. I do get the enormity.

And no, no, I have no doubt that I mean,

>> well, I want to I want to mention I want

to mention too that our ourselves inside

of Utah, which really stunned me. This

I'd never seen before. Alliance for a

Better Utah elevate strategies, taking

the content from the CPP, repurposing

it, and jamming it down the throats of

people in Utah on my social media feed

and lots of other feeds.

>> I'm I'm I have no doubt that's true, but

I I'm asking questions that I think are

relevant uh to the country. I'm not an

agent of the Chinese. I'm not a

socialist. So, I just want to know like

where's the water coming from? Because

water, as you know, is one of the most

contested resources in the West.

>> Oh, no. That's right. That's right. When

you buy land in Utah,

>> there are water rights that were granted

that land sometimes over 100 years ago,

you have to apply for a permit, a usage

permit for that water. So if it was if

it was once used for one purpose and you

want to change the purpose to

industrial, let's say in the case of a

data center or power generation, you

have to apply for the permit. Usually

what happens if it was grazing and it

was 100% you could use. They may change

that and knock it down by 40% to 60%.

But there's water already on that

property already being used right now.

We're just repurposing that water for a

different purpose. It's not like we're

going to draw water from somewhere else.

We couldn't use the land if it had no

water. We couldn't even have a toilet in

the men's room if we didn't have any

water. So,

>> would you be using more water than say a

sugar beat farmer would?

>> No, actually, probably not. Um, it

depends. Here's Tucker. The way it works

is let's say your prime tenant is

Google. they come along and they say,

"Okay, we wanted we want to be the

tenant for the uh Utah site, but we have

a whole bunch of requirements because

they're under pressure, too, to be a lot

more efficient, productive, and and more

sustainable." They may say, "Well, let's

not use water to cool our turbines. Our

spec is going to be air cooled

turbines." So, you're going to build out

you're the you're the owner. you're the

master developer. Here's our spec. And

so I expect whether it ends up being uh

Amazon or Microsoft or Tesla or Google,

they're going to build in a whole bunch

of things. And we can't deliver them

water we don't have. So my guess is it's

going to be contained cooling for the

chips, which is like a radiator in your

car. So you're not using a ton of water

there. And then for the turbines

themselves, it may be air cooled. We

don't know yet. It depends what the

tenant wants.

>> So, what's your what's your, as you game

this out, expected water use over the

first 10 years?

>> Well, not knowing what my tenant wants

yet, probably less uh than we originally

anticipated in terms of what is given us

on the water rights. We've applied for

that. I mean, we're anticipating we'll

get, you know, whatever we're going to

get. I don't think we're going to use it

all at all because what people

>> Do you expect water rates in the state

of Utah will go up?

>> Yeah. Not because of us. I just think

they go up anyways over time.

>> But if they go up if they go up at a at

a quicker rate than they have been going

up if there's a spike in water price,

would you compensate the state for the

difference?

>> No.

>> Other words, if your business causes

water prices to rise, are you on the

hook for any of that? Yeah, I think we

would be I mean we're negotiating that

but that I I don't think water is the

constraint because most of the

technology which advances every 24

months is reducing the requirement for

water. So me I mentioned the air cooled

turbines those just came on the scene 18

months ago. So they're the first to

actually generate five megawws at a time

like Lego box. Put them together and

just you're using air. But they're also

you have EPA regulation about air

quality. So you've got to be very

careful that when you're using air

cooling, you're not breaching the air

quality because in Utah and I studied

this when I was back in college. It's a

unique geography. They get inversions

there because of the mountains. So you

really as an old environmental study

guy, that's the one they'd always show

us would be Salt Lake City. So I'm well

aware of the problem and I know what the

new turbines can do. The amount of hype

and hysteria and over all of this stuff

um well I've already pointed out I think

it's being generated by our our

adversaries, but it's also

misinformation. Everything that has been

said about that site is false. Well, I'm

grateful that you're able to to present

your side of this and thank you for

doing it. Things around the world are

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So, let me ask um cuz I mean this is

just a huge new thing and I think it's

understandable that people would be

anxious about it. I don't think they

understand it. I don't fully understand

it. That's for sure. Let me ask though

about why taxpayers should have to pay

for this. If it's a private business and

your tenants are some of the richest

companies in the world, why would

taxpayers be required as they now are to

subsidize this?

>> They don't they don't necessarily have

to do that. They just won't win any

contracts. It's it's a it's a

competition. Um

>> but why are you getting tax breaks is my

question.

>> No, everybody. But you go back and you

say, "What incentives can you give us to

invest $15 billion in the first 1.5

gigs?" That's what it takes. I have to

go raise $15 billion dollar. That's just

>> But anyone who starts a business, why

should taxpayers have to pony up for

that?

>> They don't. But

>> of course they do. If you if you I mean,

if you're getting a tax break and

they're not, they're making up the

difference. There's a state budget.

>> That's no problem. That's no problem. I

can build it in Texas. I can build it in

Jacksonville, Mississippi. There

>> But why, if it's such a good business,

would you be asking taxpayers to help

pay for it without giving them equity in

the company? Are you giving taxpayers

shares?

>> No. that the investors get the shares,

but here's why they would do it.

>> Why would the taxpayers have to I mean,

if you want to start a business, why why

am I as a taxpayer forced to pay for

your business? I don't I don't get it.

>> Well, let's forget about data centers.

Let's go any manufacturing. Let's say

you're going to build um an aluminum

sheet manufacturing facility. You go to

the government there and say, "Look,

this is a huge capex, you know, uh huge

capex expenditure. I'm going to hire

2,000 people. I'm going to build a

community center. I'm going to pay a lot

of tax on the profits in your state when

I sell the aluminum. And I'm going to

hire all these people and they will also

pay tax. And we will build a school

because our workers need a need a

school. And and and and what can you

give me to incentivize me versus the the

state right beside you which is willing

to give me an incentive package.

>> No, no. I understand I understand that

you're you're gaming a system in place.

You didn't come up with this, but I'm

just trying to understand.

>> So, the trade typically is jobs. Okay.

But these projects don't actually

>> Well, no. No. It's also jobs and taxes

cuz you're going to

>> and taxes.

>> Yeah.

>> But, but then you're getting a tax

break. So, that doesn't really make any

sense.

>> Only on the front. You're Tucker.

Welcome to America, buddy. This is how

it's gone on for 200 years. Difference.

>> Well, I don't know. Lots of bad things

go on for a while. I'm just But I think

at some point it's worth assessing like

why are we doing this? So on the job

that you're doing it because there's a

competition.

>> Well, I run I run a couple businesses

and we're not getting any tax breaks. I

think they're every bit as virtuous as

data centers, but I'm not availing

myself of that and no one's offered and

I wouldn't take it anyway because it's

not the job of taxpayers to subsidize a

private business. That's a fair that's a

fair it's a fair comment. But my job is

to create a data center, create 2,000

jobs for long-term and 10,000

manufacturing at the beginning or

construction and I'm obviously looking

at at multiple sites and this won't be

the last one I build. I have

>> May I May I ask 2,000 jobs? Okay. So

relative to the size the physical size

of the project which as you noted is

multiple times the size of Manhattan and

the power draw at peak

this data center your projections will

consume about as much energy as New York

City does but New York City provides

almost 5 million jobs and this project

by your own description would provide

about 2,000 jobs.

I I don't see the

>> definitely that you definitely got that

calculation wrong. By building a data

center that trains AI that provides

productivity to the entire nation, we

create millions of jobs, highpaying

jobs.

>> AI is going to create jobs.

>> I thought it was going to eliminate

jobs.

>> Just think about the new technologies we

don't even know yet that are going to be

built off AI. Everybody thinks when

television came, everybody would lose

their job in radio. That was complete

BS. And the same thing is going to

happen here. Everybody's hysteria about

losing jobs, making hamburgers or

flipping them, being replaced by a

robot. That's probably true. But all

kinds of new technology will become

available over time, including in

medical science and biology and all

kinds of things where the models can be

used. I'm extremely optimistic. what I'm

doing is creating a whole new

opportunity for my children.

>> What kinds of jobs?

>> Well, I mean, again, I'm some of this,

of course, is unknowable and I want to

be as fair as I can be cuz I'm grateful

that you're willing to talk about it so

openly,

>> but you just said this will create mill

AI will create millions of new jobs.

You're

>> part of the basis of AI. You can't have

AI without data centers, at least right

now.

>> So, what are those millions of jobs?

Because we can go through the list that

the creators, the people who actually

are making AI right now developing it.

We can go through the list of jobs they

say it's going to eliminate, which would

be like lawyers and financial planners

and like the basis of upper middle class

America. That's going away. They've said

this. What will it be replaced by?

It'll be replaced by new science

opportunities, new exploration into

space, new manufacturing for robotics,

for defense as well. Wars in the future

probably aren't going to be fought with

people getting shot in the flesh. It'll

be one set of robots against another. I

think the drone technology will advance

the manufacturing of surveillance all

that stuff against our enemies which

notably is basically China. So if you

think about how you know you debate the

data center I think it's fair to do that

what you're doing but I would be very

concerned if I were living in Taiwan

that one day my electricity just goes

out and I get invaded by basically

robotics and high precision ordinance

and that's what China wants and they

want to get there first. Now, if we

don't get there first, if we don't

develop something better than their AI

there and our ability to be predictive

on where these conflicts are going to

happen,

I think we'll be in a bad place in 20

years. And so,

>> okay, but I think it's very revealing

that I asked you about jobs in the

United States and you went immediately

to defending Taiwan in the

>> Well, we we manufacture the equipment

here, Tucker. That's where it's made.

>> But I'm Okay.

Well, actually, a lot of this is made in

China, as as I know, you know. So, um

>> that's my whole point. I don't want to

do that anymore. I want to start making

it here. I want to do advanced robotics.

>> I totally agree. But the promise of AI

and robotics is that the robots will

make the products of the future. So how

exactly does that result in American

jobs?

What are those? What are you talking

about replaced by a machine? I don't buy

that. I just don't agree with you

because it's never

>> Well, I'm not saying I don't want that

to happen. Trust me, I'm really worried

about it. Almost panicked. But I'm

trying to feel better. Okay, then please

make me feel better. Where are these

millions of new jobs? What specifically

are you talking about?

>> Well, you know, every time technology

advances, it creates new opportunities

that were not for seen prior because you

don't know the direction of new tech.

You know, think about if you and I, cuz

we were actually around in the late '

80s contemplating what new jobs would be

created

>> by the internet. And look at what's

happened. It's created millions of jobs

and advanced all kinds of technologies

and changed the way we live to the

better. And I would say to you, the same

angst we had, the same narrative that

was going on in 1992

about how the internet is going to wipe

out the economy and it's a bad thing and

it's dangerous. Of course, people loathe

change. That's the nature of how

>> you think that the United States is a

happier country than it was in 1992.

>> What divine happy? What does that mean?

>> I don't know. We How about the suicide

rate or the addiction rate or the life

expectancy?

Those are all

>> I mean, look, there's there's lots of

social issues and there always has been.

I would remind you though,

>> but they've gotten worse at exa at

exactly the period in history that the

internet was formed and then seemed to

infuse every part of our lives. So if

you were worried about the effect of the

internet in 1992 on America, looking

back from the vantage of 2026, you could

say, "Yeah, I had good reason to be

worried." Couldn't you? Or am I

imagining that

>> you you could say that it would have

some effect on society? But let me

remind you something. Um, and I'm I'm

probably the right guy to make this

comment cuz I spend a lot of time all

around the world investing all around

the world. Um, I don't care where you go

and and I feel this way and over the and

I've really learned this over the last

20 years. Um, what is the number one

export of America? It's not energy and

it's not technology. It's actually the

American dream for all its faults that

America has.

Everybody I meet in every country,

pretty well every single one would like

to figure out how they can get to

America, start a business, and be part

of the American dream. And I go to some

pretty gnarly places where people are

willing to risk their lives to go under

a river with barb wire to get in here.

So until that changes,

which I don't see ever happening, our

only my only concern is China. They're

the ones What's the America? What's the

If you could just be more precise. I

mean, born here. I love this country.

I'm not leaving. So, I'm I'm vested in

the idea of the American dream, but I'd

love to just define it more precisely

before we discuss it. What is it?

>> Okay. Um, let's make it really basic.

Let's go to Shark Tank. Those people

that trod out in front of me and have

done for almost 20 years, uh, with an

idea to solve someone's problem that

they'll get paid for. And 80% fail, but

20% make it. And it creates personal

freedom for them because it was just an

idea. I mean, I think of some of these

things. Wicked good cupcakes set two

women free for the rest of their lives.

Base paws, cat DNA testing, Anastasia, a

researcher that came up with this idea,

walked away with 105 million cash 36

months later. That's the American dream.

And I'm an ambassador for it.

>> So, it's freedom and opportunity. I

think you just said, is it fair to

someone? It's it's it's not about the

greed of money. What I've learned is

opportunity.

>> It's opportunity and and I I see it over

and over again and I'm an ambassador for

it all around the world because of the

fact that somehow magically this show

and you understand television better

than anybody. This thing is on in 54

countries around the world. I can go

anywhere and call up the leadership of

any place and have a meeting with them

because I'm just an ambassador of the

American dream. That's pretty

interesting.

>> Well, it's it's a great thing. the

American dream. If freedom and

opportunity is what the American dream

is, then you know those are things worth

dying for. Um I think

>> that's what people are doing.

>> So the question is, is AI going to bring

us freedom and opportunity? Because AI

is the big bet that the entire American

economy is making right now. And I want

it to be a good bet more than anything.

But I wonder if it's going to bring us

freedom and opportunity. So let's just

start with opportunity. The concern that

people have is that their jobs and not

just their jobs but their purpose for

being alive will be replaced by

machines.

To which you say that's not true. Great

things will happen. To which I said okay

what are those great things to which you

talked about Shark Tank. So I just want

to be a little more specific about what

the upside of AI is because then

everyone will calm down and feel happy

about your data center.

>> What is the upside?

>> Well, let's start in medicine.

Um, let's use specific cases everybody

can understand.

I was in Miami two weeks ago, um, and

went for a full body scan, the price of

which has dropped 80% in the last 3

years. So, in an hour and a half, this

machine went right through my body.

Two years ago, it would have taken 3

weeks to get the results looking for

cysts on your liver or whatever it is.

with AI

with the agent they had there right at

the scan facility.

Um 18 minutes later it delivered me a

report told me I had an infection in my

sinus that I had a cyst on my kidney

that hasn't grown since the last body

scan four years ago.

That was stunning and remarkable.

>> Yeah, it's great.

>> It is great. So that's one use case of

something very very important

>> and that's just medicine. And so if you

think about

>> all the things that this can do

including the arts and in music and and

film and everything I think the use

cases are going to be created by humans

who find ways to use the tool. I view it

and maybe you don't agree as simply a

tool. Another example because it's great

to tell people just examples. I've been

a photographer my whole life, including

a period when I was a professional

commercial photographer and a

cinematographer of the networks. I've

amassed

590,000

images during my career, half of which

are on film, not shot with a phone where

you get all the data on it and it knows

where it was shot, when it was shot, and

everything else, which is easy to index

and look for. So, call it quarter of a

million negatives.

How could I possibly catalog that as a

human? I couldn't. I don't have enough

time left before I'm dead. So, I used AI

last week with a tool to actually after

scanning all the images to go look at

them for 2 weeks. And now I'm able to

just go to this computer and say, "Find

a picture of my wife the day I met her

uh in the gym."

Boom. There it is. Now,

>> that's amazing. No, you're kind of

making my point, though, because the two

examples you gave are examples of a

machine replacing human labor and doing

a better job than any person could do.

>> Oh, Tucker, that's horrible.

>> Which is great.

>> Well, that's my point.

>> Well, I know it's your point. I know

it's your point, and I can see the

marvel of it, but it raises the

question, which won't go away, which is,

okay, now that machines do what people

do better than people did, what do

people do?

>> Okay. And what is the answer to that?

>> Let me ask you, let me let me pose a

question against that. Would you prefer

I'm giving you one of two options with

the uncertainty of both, okay? But I

want you to pick one. This will tell me

a lot about how you think.

Would you prefer in the next 5 years

that China have more compute power than

we do, even though the the use and the

outcome and jobs and everything else

we're talking about is unknown? Or would

you prefer the United States of America

and and their allies in North America

had more compute power to develop AI?

Which

>> depends whichever makes the United

States happier, freer, and more

prosperous, I guess, is the answer.

>> You know what the answer to that is?

What do you think it is?

>> I'm not sure that we know. I know that

reducing this question to a competition

between the United States and China is a

very quick way to derail people from the

core questions which revolve around

whether or not it's a good idea. So

that's always kind of a red flag for me.

China has more economic power now than

the United States. Probably has more

military power. I didn't want either of

those things to happen. I'm a little

bitter at the American business

community which allowed them to happen,

but they happened. So here we are.

There's not much I can do about it. My

focus remains,

however, on is it good for the United

States? Is it good for us? Does it make

people happy? And I don't understand

what people are going to do for a living

if machines are going to be able to do

most things that people currently do

better than people do them. Like, what

is the answer? What are And a lot of

people are honest enough to say nothing.

we're just going to the oligarchs are

going to send out checks to everybody,

the bread and the bread and circuses and

everyone's just going to kind of stay

home and be obedient.

But I don't know that that is a good

idea and I don't know.

>> I think I think you're raising a great

point. It's a wonderful debate and it's

certainly going on. But it's analogist

to the narrative that must have been

happening back when the Model T Ford

rolled off the assembly line and

everybody that had a buggy looked at it

and said, "Oh no, this is going to wipe

me out and there'll be no work for me."

that the American economy is very

resilient as it develops new sectors.

>> What happened after the Model T was

rolled out? We had two big events in the

say 40 years after that. One was the

first world war and one was the second

world war. The industrial revolution

like all technological change caused

dramatic political and social change

which resulted in the biggest

bloodletting in human history. So I'm

like it's worth thinking this stuff

through like technological change

forces.

Unfortunately, capitalism and the

freedom it provides

uh is volatile and it has lots of

periods including the Great Depression

where it taxes the people that support

it, but it's still better than the

alternative anywhere on earth it seems

200 years later. And so, you know, when

you start and looking at the American

economy and the VA it's had, it's been

unbelievable. But the system uh with all

its faults and you're raising some good

points. I I agree with you. I'm just

trying to think what's the alternative

and regarding AI and the and the

ultimate uh issue around your job issue

and I I think it it's it's fair. I'm

looking at it differently. I'm looking

at it as insurance. I would prefer even

though the future's uncertain and the

outcome, you know, and and the end is

always near to quote Jim Morrison. I

love that line in his song,

>> Roadhouse Blues.

>> Yeah. The Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The future's

uncertain and is always near. Um, live,

you know, words I live by. But it's sort

of if you had to give me the two

alternatives, let China do this first or

us. I'll take us. And and I and I'm part

of that now. And in the controversy of

it, we started our conversation. I've

never seen a controversy like this. I've

never seen attacks like this. I know you

have, but I haven't experienced it and

I'm I'm hiring.

>> Well, I mean, if you take money from

taxpayers, you should expect them to

weigh in too and take their complaints

seriously and not just dismiss them as

>> and you're right, but but this has been

going on incentives state by state in

every sector happen. Even real estate,

>> not incentives, they're they're it's a

forced transfer of wealth from taxpayers

to people who are richer than taxpayers.

So, like, no, they're not. Of course,

they of course they have

>> you get a tax break to create 2,000

jobs. And the the taxpayer wouldn't do

it if if it wasn't the long-term

outcome.

>> The taxpayer has no choice. The taxpayer

has no choice. They could say no. That's

not what happened. Well, they tried to

say no to this data center and they got

laughed at. And then the governor,

Spencer Cox of Utah,

>> who really is a kind of living symbol of

of our ruling class,

>> um said that the state has an obligation

to do this and basically, as you were

doing, waved away concerns as

like foreign propaganda when I think

they're probably non crazy people who

live in Utah like, "Why is this good for

me?

>> Why should I pay for this?

>> It's fair. It's fair. All this is fair.

How about we forget the data center and

just talk about the power for a second

because there aren't going to be any

data centers in America unless we build

power generation. Do you have the same

visceral reaction to power generation as

you do to data centers?

>> Uh inversely I think we need more

electricity in the United States and I

think that's speaking of agents of

China. In fact, if you're looking for

agents of China, it's the people who

told you that you could live without

fossil fuels. That babies wouldn't die

without fossil fuels. Babies will die

without fossil fuel. Civilization will

collapse without fossil fuel. And that

right there is the foreign op telling us

that, you know, people are causing

global climate change. People are not

causing global climate change

substantially. We're having global

climate change as we always have, but to

blame it on natural gas is just a

flatout lie. And a lot of rich Americans

fell for that. So, no, I'm I'm strongly

for energy. I'm just very concerned

about replacing people, their purpose

for living, which is to create, with

machines. That seems like hell to me.

Literally hell. So, I'm I think it's

fair to ask like, how is this not hell?

And no one has been able to answer it.

>> Yeah. Um I I I think trying to stop

advancement of technology with the

uncertainty it brings has always been a

dilemma in capitalism and in America.

And I and that's a fair comment,

>> but how is this capitalism? If taxpayers

are paying for some of it, how is that

capitalism? That seems

>> I think that's no different than

building an apartment building downtown

in Austin. You can get incentives for

that, too. And that's just part of how

it works. You can debate that.

>> How is that how is that capitalism? How

is that free market? If politicians are

handing you other people's money to do

it, how is that capitalism? Well,

capitalism is built into the

Constitution, which I think was genius

because it couldn't have even thought

that far ahead was the idea of

competition between states. Why is there

an exodus out of New York City to Miami

where I live? Why are people leaving New

Jersey and Massachusetts and moving into

my building? Nobody in my building is

from Florida. They're all from other

states.

>> And all of these people moving. Why?

because they're they're reaching

retirement age and the the environment

in these other states is not conducive

to their lifestyle uh when they're being

>> I think you're making my point for me.

You just listed states that use a higher

percentage of taxpayer dollars for

private industry and people are leaving

those states.

>> Wait a second. New York New York is an

inefficiently run. It may be

inefficient, but the principle that you

can

>> politicians can take the public's money

and hand it to their friends in

business, that's a long-standing

practice in New York, California, and

Illinois, and relatively uncommon in

Florida. So, people are moving to the

free market state. But you're now saying

that actually the beauty of capitalism

is that politicians hand other people's

money to their friends. That doesn't

have the opposite of capitalism.

>> I'm saying the No, you're that is

incorrect. I didn't say that. I said

what makes capitalism work is

competition. And it does work and it has

worked for hundreds of years. And so the

concept, you may not like the policy of

giving incentives for manufacturers and

real estate. You may not like it and I

understand you don't. But you don't have

to do it. A state can stop doing it. And

then for a while maybe um they'll be

less competitive in terms of getting new

projects. I didn't make those rules up.

I'm I'm a football player on the field

of capitalism. I have to play by rules.

>> I get it. No, I get it. I I And I'm not

attacking you for it. I'm just wondering

again occasionally it's worth pausing

and asking are we doing the right thing

even if we've been doing it the same way

for a long time. Do you I'll ask just

one final question. I'll stop torturing

you.

Do you see how other people find it

unfair

that one of the richest people in

America, you, in league with the biggest

companies in America, Amazon, Microsoft,

etc., the ones you listed, that the

richest people in our society would be

taking money from people much poorer

than them.

That seems very unfair.

You know, Tucker, um, let I'll speak for

myself on this. I'm not motivated by

money anymore. That that is not why I

get up and work 18 hours a day. Um, I

want to build something incredible. I

want my legacy legacy for my children to

be something that they're honored by,

right?

>> I want to compete against the Chinese.

>> I don't like the Chinese government, in

case anybody has noticed that, over the

last 5 years. I don't like how they

treat their people. I don't like how

they treat me in business. I simply

don't like them. What's motivating me

now with all of this barrage, this

firestorm, which I understand you've

experienced in the past, is I want to

beat them in AI. I don't want them

controlling the most advanced models

wherever that's taking us. Cuz you bring

up great points about the unknown in

jobs and everything else. But I want to

be part of the team that makes sure our

way of life in North America remains the

same for my children. I don't give a

about money anymore. I don't need

any more money. I've already been very

successful. I'm very lucky. But I'm not

finished. I'm very motivated to win. And

if you if people want to compete with

me, I want that. If they don't think my

motivation is to beat the Chinese,

they're wrong. I am going to beat them.

I am going to show them these data

centers. They're going to be this

shining example how you do this

sustainably because I'm the only guy

that is graduated out of environmental

studies and builds data centers. No one

else on earth has done that.

>> I love the idea. I'm for America above

all. Do you think that Microsoft and

Amazon and Google

will do a good job preserving the

American way of life? Are they

substantially superior morally to the

Chinese government? Do you think that

those are your tenants?

>> Yes, I do. And in fact, I deal with

>> Tell me how tell me how is how is

Google?

>> I'll tell you why. I I I was talking

with the guy yesterday that does um is

doing is doing the buildouts all around

the world for Google's data centers.

They are on incredible sustainable

mission. They are looking at every

technology to reduce their um

need for traditional power sources. And

you know we were talking about the the

campus in uh Utah.

They have some very advanced thinking on

the use of battery, wind and solar and

so they want to do that. Why? Because

their customers want that.

>> Well, wait a second. China leads the

United States in battery, wind, and

solar in development of those

technologies.

>> Yeah, that's such a great that's it's a

great story, but not in data centers.

They don't they're powering.

>> No, but hold on. Jumping around a little

bit. I'm just trying to ask Okay, so you

say you want to preserve the American

way of life. That's why you're building

this. My question was okay well your

tenants are these big companies that are

not really American companies or

publicly traded companies that are owned

by the sovereign wealth funds of mill

tons of countries around the world in

what sense are they American companies

in what sense do they have American

values was my

>> because they're they they operate under

the laws and are headquartered in the

United States of America under the

regulations the only reason that Google

can raise as much capital as it does

from the sovereign wealth now you're

coming into my space I'm an indexer for

sovereign wealth. The only reason 52

cents of every dollar comes to America

is the transparency of our laws and the

appellet system and our banking system

and the regulator and and so that's why

you find the largest tech companies on

earth housed in America because the

regulatory environment and the actual

regulatory environment in the context of

the globe is the most advanced on earth.

So you may hate the SEC, you may not

like you know regulations, but in fact

it gives an infrastructure where most

capital comes here. That's what happens

because the outcomes why does France

have no Microsoft? Why does Germany not

have one? What what happened to you know

the European countries they they and

Britain,

you know, they don't have any of this

tech because they regulated it out of

their society. We don't want to change

that. We want the innovation here,

not the regulation necessarily. But we

>> I strongly agree except to the extent

the regulation protects the public.

>> It's a balance. That's why we trust the

government. A lot of people don't like

them. We say, "Look, at the end of the

day, you know, the great example that we

could use that you both know. I don't

think crypto is going to work until they

pass the bill about crypto. They got to

finish this infrastructure act so that

finally crypto can find its place inside

of the 11 sectors of our economy. No

one's gonna I'm not investing in crypto

until I get that freaking thing through

the house.

>> May May I ask Okay, so just to your

second point about the American dream,

there was opportunity I think you know

the ability to be judged on on your

actions, on your behavior, on your

character to be treated equally and

there was also freedom. Um, and so I

think many people have deep concerns

about AI's effect on freedom. And you

said yourself the purpose of AI is in

part surveillance.

>> Yeah.

>> What is the point? Right. So what is

that? What does that look like? I asked

what jobs does it create? Couldn't get

an answer. Now I'm going to ask you a

more specific question. Surveillance get

an answer for me because nobody knows

what jobs it's going to create yet.

>> Well, of course. But I' I've always seen

every technology that has been loathed

as it's come in always creates new jobs.

And I assume the same for this tool.

It's just a tool. So you you know the

surveillance is a great point. We have

laws regarding surveillance and we have

laws that restrict the government.

They're built into the constitution. We

have free we have free speech. All of

these things remain the same. They don't

change with AI.

>> Well, they did until last week when the

president led the charge to change the

law.

and allow warrantless spying on

Americans.

>> Yeah. In

>> Okay. Well, wait a second.

>> In direct violation of the US

Constitution. So, obviously the

Constitution doesn't matter to the

people in charge.

>> Oh, it does. Every administration is

kept in check by the Supreme Court,

including this one. And so, that's why

the founding fathers created this

structure. And I think it works. And I

trust it for one. And I'm willing to,

you know, have my kids who are Americans

grow up here and I want to protect them.

>> Okay. What what kind of surveillance? I

mean, it seems like AI will make it

possible to know what every American is

doing at all times. Correct me if I'm

wrong.

>> Um, I would say it's not AI that's going

to do that. I would say now with the

amount of highresolution video uh and

surveillance that is built into every

street corner,

that's how they solve a lot of crimes.

Now, if you don't like

>> Do they solve a lot of crimes? Has the

really has the closure rate for murders

in our big cities like what percentage

of murders are in New York City or

Chicago or Detroit are solved?

>> I don't I don't I don't track the

>> pretty low actually it's lower uh in

this country.

>> My point is surveillance is a great

issue but the enhancement of

surveillance with AI tools is how you

now walk through the Dubai airport and

you also walk through some airports here

in the US. facial recognition technology

has finally got to the resolution using

AI's tools where you

>> it's gonna run through your data center.

There'll be pictures of all of us in

your data center. Every data center,

right? So, you don't So, but how does

that make it free?

>> You don't have to you don't have to opt

into that program, by the way. I do it

for convenience. I'm not hiding

anything.

>> Well, it's on street corners, as you

said. So, it's anytime you're in public,

your face is being surveiled by

>> it is, but I'm I'm not um doing

nefarious things. I'm not a criminal and

I'm not stealing any money from anybody.

The definition of nefarious changes as

you know I mean hundreds of thousands of

American citizens were sent to

concentration camps by Franklin

Roosevelt because they were Japanese.

>> Correct.

>> So in 194 it was not a crime to be

Japanese. In 1941 it was. So it the

definition does change

>> as you know. So

>> it's true. So you you could have those

concerns. But I ask you again Tucker.

>> I do.

>> No. And I I know you do. But I ask you

again and you haven't answered my

question. Do you want the insurance

policy or not? Would you pre would you

with all of the nefarious concerns about

AI? Which outcome do you prefer as an

American for your family, would you

prefer all of us that are developing

these data centers put down our shovels

and stop while the Chinese accelerate

theirs? Would you like that?

>> Well, I see a kind of a different

question. And I see the question, do I

want to be let me answer your question

in the following way. Do I want to

become like China in order that we can

quote beat China? Not at all. The

problem with China from my perspective

is that it surveils its citizens and it

limits their ability to say what they

think and to oppose existing power.

That's why China is bad. I thought

because there are a lot of things about

China that are great, but what I don't

like about China is the totalitarian

approach it has towards its own

population.

>> I agree with you. You're making it

possible for our government to have the

same approach and our government already

does. They're surveilling us at all

times. Most Americans don't even know

they're being watched. Their license

plate readers, there are facial

recognition cameras everywhere. And the

question is why? So the crime rate can

go down? Well, it hasn't gone down. So

of course, the real reason is to make

you obedient obviously.

>> No, I I have a different vision of the

future because this crime everybody but

here now hear me out. Here's what here's

what I think is going to happen because

I'm enjoying this conversation. Let me

as we come to a close soon, but

>> here's where I think we're going to be

in 20 years. Okay,

>> I believe in 20 years and this is my

vision of what's going to occur and I

think I'm a great guy to actually do

this cuz I have a foot in both

economies. I think by the time the 20th

year I'm going to make it in 10 years.

It may not be with this administration

or the administration of Canada. The two

economies are going to emerge for one

reason

>> which economies

>> two the two econ has all the raw

resources the largest consumer under

>> and and it's crazy that we're fighting

uh on these on this stuff it's crazy it

makes no sense

>> totally agree

>> and so we should merge um these econ you

don't have to merge the countries you

merge the economies you get an EU type

situation where you allow freedom of

movement across the border and you allow

of no tariffs on all the the stuff we

need, the rare Earth Canada has, the

water, the paper, all that stuff. And

the only reason we're going to do that

is so we can take 5%

of our GDP, which will be the largest on

Earth, by around 25%. No one will be

close to us if we merge those two

together and the benefits that acrewue

for one reason, to tell the Chinese,

don't with us. That's basically

what's going to happen because they want

to with us big time and that's my

belief and I think I'm right. I think

that's what's going to happen. And AI

and and compute and all this stuff

that's a side story. We have to keep all

of our tech ahead of theirs including

data centers and everything else. But

ultimately they are our adversary on our

way of life.

>> Then can I ask our way of life? Right.

So you I would think since you disagree

with the Chinese way of life which is

pretty civilized in a lot of ways but

the one way in which it's barbaric is

that it grants its citizens no real

rights. And so I would think that you

would be very worried about aping their

system which we are now doing. Like they

have total surveillance. It's a

panopticon in China. We should create

our own. Let's take 40,000 acres in Utah

and make it possible for the government

to know where you are at all times and

what you're thinking. Listening to you

on your phone. Like we have that be

upset about You have to you you have to

choose the the less of two evils in your

scenario. And I'm telling you the the

what you should do is say I want Kevin

Olri to succeed. I want him to beat the

Chinese in compute power and then then

use the laws of the United States to

make sure that you keep that compute

power in check whichever way you want.

But to not have it available to put down

my shovel, I don't think people want me

to do that. Even the people in box

elder, the majority of them want me to

hold my shovel and start digging. And

that's basically the debate we're

having.

>> How do you know? How do you know that?

That the majority of

>> Because they voted for it unanimously

before the Chinese guys,

>> there was a referendum dispatch like all

this crap that's being spewed out.

>> Hold on. I'm Yeah. And I may have fallen

for some of it. So you correct me. There

was a referendum among citizens or did

some like county board vote? We we

actually went through the whole process

that you have to do by their laws and

were granted

three to zero. They the the

commissioners of the county said we want

>> three people voted. The people of the

county elected officials that's how you

do it.

>> How hard is it for Kevin Oolir and

Amazon and Microsoft and Google to

subvert three county commissioners in

rural Utah? They vote. They wanted They

asked us to come. They asked us to bring

$15 billion. They asked and they voted

and they it was a three to zero vote.

They they that's how you got on Google

and Kevin Oly got three county

commissioners in rural Utah on their

side. Good work. But can I just ask you

really quick like why don't you have a

referendum? Why don't you let all

citizens, all taxpayers, the ones who

are paying for your project, why don't

they get to why don't they get to pay or

vote?

Well, there listen, the the whole idea

of of expediting it was so the project

didn't go to Jacksonville, Mississippi.

That's the competition. And so the

government there said, "Okay, look,

we've done because we haven't lost we

haven't lost our um we have to go

through EPA, we have to go through air

quality, we have to go through the water

permitting, we have to go through the

land construction permitting. Nothing's

been lost there. There's there's no

there's no circumventing the process.

And that's what we're doing now. So if

if you want to block the water permit or

whatever, go ahead. I mean, if you think

that's a good idea, if there's a path to

do that, we're going to do it the way

we've been told by the law. By the way,

I'm I got to go soon. But I would love

to keep going.

Kevin, I sure appreciate it and I hope

that when my personal data comes through

your data center, you will you will

filter it.

>> Tucker, I think I think I'm going to

tell when when people ask me what was

like, I'm going to say he told me to get

my shovel out and keep digging. That's

>> I did I I very much did not say that.

Not digging for a data center. I don't

know. Build like an antibiotics factory.

That would be I'd be for that.

>> Thank you very much. Take care, my

friend. You know, you know I'm a huge

fan. I really am. I appreciate

>> I I love the you take and the

you give. I really do. All right.

>> Doesn't bother me at all. Thanks, Ailia.

>> Thank you. Take care. Ciao. Bye-bye.