Original subtitles

When I was very young, I was small. I

was uh a year behind. I was born in

December. But back then, you didn't know

that one of the reasons why you felt

smaller and terrible at sports was

because you actually were smaller. and

you were younger. For some reason, my

mom wanted me to be I guess not a grade

ahead, but I should have been a a grade

behind. So, I graduated from high school

when I was 17. And uh as a result, I

just felt smaller and other and insecure

and that got built in me in some way.

And I think it as I look back, it had a

big effect on me. And growing up in a

culture of athletics,

I think I spent a lot of my childhood

alone because people were playing

sports. I was picked last in gym class

and it made me angry. And I think um how

that connected to comedy for me was I

thought this system is [ __ ]

And I became obsessed with the Marx

brothers

because the Marx brothers

basically made fun of

handsome people and the beautiful people

in their gowns and their tuxedos and

they were the lunatics cleaning their

feet in the in the lemonade cart. And

they said all of these rules that are

set up are [ __ ] and and they mocked

uh you know high society, they mocked

government. Uh they just said you should

question everything. And for some reason

as a kid that's who I related to. Uh and

I didn't know what it meant, but I think

in a way people who get involved in

comedy

are upset about something. I think

they're they have an issue uh where the

world doesn't make sense and they're

looking for answers. And comedy is a

great way to try to uh figure out uh how

the world works and how you feel about

it. It's a great way to be critical of

it. It's a great way to survive it. And

for me, it started with the Marx

Brothers. But I was a person searching

for answers. And I I do believe that

that's a lot of what comedy is about.

That led uh for me to listening to

George Carlin albums and Lenny Bruce

albums. And then that interest in

researching comedy uh led me to reading

the book Ladies and Gentlemen, Lenny

Bruce when I was in 8th grade.

That was the first time I I I read about

someone uh who was a comic mind and was

living a a very dangerous lifestyle. Uh

and as a little kid, I I was fascinated

by it. This idea that he was standing up

for freedom of speech. Uh at the same

time, he was a drug addict. He was

married to a a former or current

stripper. He was a very complicated,

incredible, hilarious person.

And that started my fascination with

knowing a lot about comedians, how they

work, and what their lives are are like.

So, in some ways, I always felt like all

this reading and watching was

programming me

uh for my eventual attempts to create my

own comedy.

When I was uh in

the end of junior high school, my

parents got divorced and it was a very

painful divorce. They fought

literally from 8th grade till I was in

college. Uh, you know, it was one of

those situations where it never got

settled. It never calmed down. and my

mom moved out and my parents had owned a

restaurant and the owner of of this

comedy club on Long Island uh in

Southampton was a guy named Rick Msina

and he used to be the bartender at my

parents restaurant. So when my parents

got divorced, my mom took a job as the

hostess at this comedy club and that's

when I first saw comedians. I would go

to every show all summer long at the

East End Comedy Club in Southampton and

I saw people like Paul Prevenza and Jay

Leno and

that's when I knew, oh, this is what I

want to do. I I'd like to be a standup

comedian, but I didn't think I could

tell anybody.

So, I kept it a secret. And years later,

I thought about

how my mom really didn't have any money

at the time, and she took this job. And

how much could she have gotten paid to

do it? How much do you get paid to seat

people at a comedy club?

50 bucks,

75 bucks? This is the early 80s.

And then it occurred to me that this was

whether consciously or unconsciously a

gift to me that on some level if you

think of the world as making any sense

at all or the universe is giving gifts

or advice or supporting you. My mom

wanted me to be able to go to that

comedy club. And that's what lit the

fuse uh on the whole thing was the fact

that she took this job, which couldn't

have been a great job, but that that was

the door in to really watch comedians.

The next thing I thought was,

how can I talk to these comedians? I've

just gotten to watch them. I want to

talk to them. So, I had a high school

radio station uh which was called WKWZ

uh at Sasset High School and my friend

Josh Rosenthal used to go interview

bands

and he would go interview

or X in the in the early 80s and and one

day we were talking and he claims it was

his suggestion. I'll I'll give it to

him. He said you should interview

comedians. So the first person I

interviewed was a comedian named JJ Wall

uh who was famous as uh one of the the

great MC's

at the height of uh the success of

Catcher Rising Star in New York and he

later went on to be uh one of the great

sitcom writers. So I interviewed him for

the radio station and then I decided to

start a show called Club Comedy and I

started interviewing

comedians and the only reason why I did

it was because I wanted to meet them and

I wanted to ask them how do you do it?

How do you get in? That was how obsessed

I was is I created a show that no one on

earth listened to. I didn't even air

almost any of the interviews. They were

just for me. So, I very quickly

interviewed Steve Allen and then I

interviewed Sandra Burnernhard and then

I decided to hunt down as many of the

original writers from Saturday Night

Live as possible. I interviewed Alan Zel

and Don Nollo who did Guido Sarduchi and

Harry Shearer and on and on and on and

one of the highlights for me was

interviewing Gary Shanling right after

he hosted the Tonight Show for the first

time. So I've been making a documentary

about Gary Shanling and one of the good

interviews of Gary when he was young was

done by me when I was 16 years old. But

I had these opportunities to sit with

people like Jay Leno or Jerry Seinfeld

and say, "How did you get on stage for

the first time? Where did you do it?

How do you write a joke?" Jerry Seinfeld

sat down with me and

talked about how to write a joke. And he

used this example,

which I still remember. That's how

important it was to me. He talked about

coming at things from every angle and

how he would uh figure out his point of

view by talking about a bit where there

was a guy in this TV show called That's

Incredible who would catch a bullet

between his teeth. And then he said he

was trying to figure out what's funny

about this. And he said, "Well, one

thing that's funny is I don't remember

his name."

And this guy must be thinking, "What do

I have to do to get you to remember my

name?" And then he took me through all

the different ways he was thinking about

this. Like, what do you how do you get

started? Do you start with a grape?

Like, how does it work? And a lot of the

people

gave me advice

uh and talked about things that really

changed

how I approached all of them.

When I did the interviews, I don't think

I consciously thought I was doing them

to educate myself. I think it was very

unconscious. I had all of these

questions about how show business work

and how comedy works. But I don't think

I was going home making notes of the

lessons for me. I think I was just

getting them. One part of it that was

very important was

they seemed like me. They seemed like

older versions of me. So just being

drawn to them and getting to talk to

them made me feel like it was possible

because I would sit in a room with Jerry

Seinfeld and think, "Oh, he's from Long

Island, too. He talks kind of like me.

It doesn't seem that weird that I could

have the same job as him." So just

getting to meet everyone demystified it

for me. It made me feel like this is

possible. You know, when you're a little

kid and you're watching Foster Brooks on

the MV Griffin Show, he seems like he's

from another planet. You know, you see

George Kirby doing standup comedy or

Frank Gorchian and you think, where do

these people come from? How does this

even happen? But when you start meeting

comedians and comedians who are closer

to what you're like, you think, oh, this

is a job. You can work hard. You can

learn how to do this. And so that was a

a giant lesson for me that this was

something that they started doing. They

were bad. They worked hard and they got

better and they didn't quit when it was

tough. And the people who were truly

great took it to the next level. And I

saw the path like, "Oh, this is the

path." Different people had different

paths. Jerry Seinfeld at that moment was

obsessed with standup. That's all he

focused on. He wasn't that interested in

acting or anything else. So, his path

was to greatness as a standup comedian.

Then I met Harold Ramos and Harold Ramos

was in Second City and he talked about

writing jokes for Rodney Dangerfield and

jokes for Playboy magazine and then he

was the head writer of SCTV and he got a

chance to write movies and he wrote

Meatballs with somebody and then

Ghostbusters and then was given a chance

to direct and uh ultimately directed uh

National Amun's Vacation and then he

went on to uh direct Stripes and

Groundhog Day. And then I heard about a

guy from uh my town who wrote jokes for

Ronnie Dangerfield. And I thought, "Oh,

maybe I could write jokes for people to

pay my rent."

So, so you know, learning the path from

different people led me to to go, "Oh,

you can do standup and then you can

write jokes for other people and that

pays your rent while you suck at standup

and it's okay to make no money at

standup for a while because you have

some money from here."

And that's is a very important lesson,

which is you have to really understand

how you're going to pay your rent. So,

you want to find a way to pay your rent

while

having time to be creative. So, if you

want to work at night, okay, you can't

have a job that takes you into the

evening and you need enough time to

write jokes or or your screenplays

depending on what you're focusing on.

And a lot of people wind up with a day

job that swallows their whole life and

then they can't be creative. So, it's

great to find a day job that puts you in

the business and where you're still

learning something, even if it's a

shitty job, but you're getting close to

it.

I remember I would get asked to book

gigs every once in a while where the

money was good and I would always ask

Bill Mart to do it so I could drive him

and talk to him. So, it would be some

some gig for five grand in town. But

really, the only reason why I asked him

to do it was I just wanted to be around

him because I I really looked up to him.

And you are looking for signs of

encouragement. You are looking for

people you respect to tell you you're on

the right track. I remember I did a a

bit before I brought up Jerry Seinfeld

when I was first starting out and he got

on stage and he just went, "That was

funny." and it kept me going for years

that someone I respected thought just

one routine was good. So that's all part

of it too is it is important to find

mentors to hang out with people who are

better than you to get advice from

people. You can't be annoying,

but you know, if you're good uh and

you're a fun, nice person, you will find

uh comedians who will want to help you

and give you advice. The first comedian

who gave me a lot of advice was Kevin

Rooney, who was a brilliant comedian,

and he was writing for Jay Leno a lot in

those days. And he would be tough and

tell me the truth and and and give me

advice and and that made all the

difference.

What I loved about Taxi was it was a

group of misfits. It was a bunch of

people who were not happy with their day

job or night job driving a taxi. And

they all had other dreams. And the only

person who didn't have a a dream was

Alex Rager who's kept saying, "I'm just

a cab driver." And we knew that down

deep somewhere he did have bigger

dreams, but he would always say, "No,

I'm happy being a cab driver." And

I, you know, that I think touched

people's hearts because it was about

dreamers. It was about people weren't

happy with their situations. So they're

they're looking for a better job, for

their dream to come true. They're

looking for love. And they all hung out

uh at the home base of this taxi

company. And there's Louis Dealama, who

in a way is the villain, but slowly you

fall in love with him, and you realize

what his dreams are and what he's afraid

of. And

I guess I thought the these are the

types of stories I want to tell. Flawed

people trying to improve their lives,

trying to be better people and all the

obstacles uh they face. I was a

uh an obsessive on the Cameron Crow

movies, Fast Times at Ridgemont High,

which came out when I was in high

school. And what I love about that movie

is it has high comedy uh and uh some

larger comedy. You have spici but you

have Jennifer Jason Lee, you know,

losing her virginity and then getting

pregnant and then having an abortion and

it's played very realistically. I

certainly related to Judge Reinhold as

just a goofy guy. Uh and things were not

going great for him. He was not doing

well at his day job. He was not doing

well with women. I saw myself in it. And

I also felt like, oh, this is this is a

sense of humor I relate to. This is kind

of like my sense of humor or what I

wished my sense of humor was. And I

think in a lot of ways it's been one of

the most uh inspirational

uh movies because it it it handles the

uh problems very thoughtfully and

seriously. It it has great respect for

its characters

uh but at the same time finds a way to

be riotously funny at times. And that's

usually what I'm trying to do, which is

uh tell a heartfelt

great story uh that touches you to show

how people try to grow, how they try to

um find happiness. And uh every once in

a while they pee with a boater.

I think that when it comes to joke

writing, most people can't dissect why

things are funny. There are those

exceptions, but for the most part, it's

like having an ear for music. So if you

listen to a lot and you're funny uh with

your friends and you feel funny in life,

you might have developed an interesting

sense of humor that can be brought to

the stage. I think that if you love

standup, you probably do the the first

thing that you should do, which is to

watch a lot of it. When I started out, I

would have to highlight TV Guide at the

beginning of the week to see which

comedians were on the Tonight Show and

which comedians were on MV Griffin. But

now everything is at your fingertips on

the internet and on YouTube and website

for Comedy Central. So you could see a

lot of it, but standup really is about

coming up with your specific point of

view. So there's a lot to learn by

watching people, but ultimately you have

to come up with your own angle or why do

it? And that's really about knowing

yourself and developing your sense of

humor. When I decided to do stand up

again, I started with a bunch of stories

that I had done on talk shows that I

knew worked. But I actually had

forgotten how to write standup, and I

didn't know how to write standup for

myself. So, one of the first things I

did is I listened to a few people a

little bit like a comedy scientist. I

listened to Pat Oswald and a few other

people just to wake up that part of my

brain that used to write a lot of

standup. I tried to figure out comedy

structure again and

how are people expressing themselves?

How are they setting up their ideas? How

are these ideas turning into punchlines?

You know, why are things funny? How does

joke structure work? Uh, sometimes

people's ideas are absurd. Sometimes

they're setting up a complaint.

Sometimes they have an answer for how to

fix something. Sometimes it's a very

personal story. Sometimes it's politics.

There's so many ways to be funny on

stage. And it is important to come up

with a way that's unique to you.

I think our sense of humor is is built

from every experience we've had in in

our lives. Everyone has a different

sense of humor. You know, some people

find things that are really harsh,

funny,

and some people like a much gentler

sense of humor. Some people like Heiha,

some people like Howard Stern.

We all have decided how humor helps us

survive this uh sometimes difficult

life. So there is no formula for it.

Like all types of writing,

standup gets better as people get more

personal. There are certainly exceptions

who are just absurd. But you do find

that as stand-ups get older and become

more seasoned, they get much more

comfortable just telling you about their

lives. And that's why people like Pat

Oswald and Maria Bamford are so strong

because it's become second nature to

just talk to you and fill you in on the

most intimate aspects of their lives.

And that's true for writing. I I think

the same thing uh is true for me in

terms of writing a lot of comedy. But it

all led to

Knocked Up where I finally got more

comfortable talking about things that

were more personal to me. There are

comedians who've been around forever and

then suddenly you go, "Oh my god, they

just went to another another place." I

think a lot of people feel that way with

with people like uh Sarah Silverman

whose act just gets stronger and

stronger. Jerry Seinfeld who in a in an

interesting way is beginning to talk

about fatherhood in this new phase of

his life and it just gets funnier and

funnier. So you can never go wrong

speaking your truth and and revealing uh

your darkest deepest stuff that for most

people they would keep hidden.

I found this poem I wrote. It's called

divorce.

It's kind of sad.

Do you want to hear it?

Okay. It gives you a little snapshot to

my young life.

It starts off with a few fights. They

bark a lot, but nobody bites. But after

a while, the fighting begins. They got

worse and worse, and nobody wins.

Don't be sad. I'm I'm rich. I'm very

rich.

This boy is me. It's okay. It's okay.

Okay. The kids always run into a corner

and hide. The parents say it's natural.

You know they lied. For me, there was

separation with lots of tears. Going out

with my friends. Marijuana and beers.

Not much. Not much.

Then they get back together and things

are okay. But that doesn't last. No way.

Kind of a Dr. Seuss kind of a rhyme

scheme there.

I spend my weeks at home, weekends at

work. I watch other people get paid for

acting like jerks. I can do that pretty

well, too. In my opinion, I'm one funny

Jew.

So, maybe it's good that I'm getting

[ __ ] up. All comedians are sick pups.

And maybe one day I'll be a big star and

I'll ride around in a big car. And I

won't mind that my parents split because

it helped me write my comedy [ __ ]

But for now, life is rough, but I'll

handle it. I'm tough.

But what you're really doing is

expressing an opinion or you're telling

something personal or you're pointing

out something absurd and pointing out

all the ways it's absurd. So, you know,

there are comics that say, "I'm mad

about this and here's what we should

do." And my standup is more like trying

to do the best I I can and I might be

screwing everything up. You know, people

have different approaches to it, and

they're all valid if they're funny and

original. I I tell this joke where I

say,

"My daughter is unhappy that she's the

only one left in the house with my wife

and I because four people is a family.

Three people is a child observing a

weird couple." That's, you know, a short

observational

joke. Um, and it's the truth because we

would sit around the house and now that

only one of our daughters is home as the

other one is in college.

She's stuck with us all day long. And

and I'm sure I could write more jokes

about how it feels to be a kid hanging

out with a middle-aged couple and how

strange it is for her and what sucks

about it and how we desperately want to

hang out with her more cuz she's the

only one left and we feel like we're

running out of time hanging out with

this kid cuz soon she's going to leave

too and then we're alone. So it's a rich

area and and then you know it's

incumbent upon the writer to to look at

it from every angle and hopefully what

happens is that the audience relates in

some way and as you keep trying it over

and over again the audience is queuing

you as to the part of it that they

understand and that's meaningful to

them. And then you know if you can write

a good joke and play with it those can

become the big laughs. But the big

laughs often come because there's a

recognition because there are people in

the crowd who think, "Yeah, my kid looks

annoyed to live with us as well." Or,

"Yeah, when I was a kid, I lived with my

parents and it was not fun."

If you had to have a starting place,

you certainly could sit down with a

piece of paper and list everything that

makes you mad and everything that that

uh you think is wrong with yourself and

then everything you think is wrong with

the world. And you could make a list of

things you wish you could change about

your personality and things you wish you

could change about your body. And you

could uh you know ask yourself a lot of

questions because usually that's where

the humor is is in your identity. So I

might talk about having a dadbot or how

I uh have some sort of prejudice against

athletes and good-looking people uh and

attractive people because I was picked

last in gym class. So, if I talk about

that, I'm revealing something about

myself that's personal, but also it's

absurd that I'm still mad at people who

are in good physical condition because I

got picked last in gym class in sixth

grade. But I am revealing something and

showing the ridiculousness of it. I have

a lot of jokes about being a parent and

they're all about wondering if I'm doing

a good job and not knowing if the

decisions that my wife and I are making

are helping my kids. I guess I should

say our kids. They're ours, too. Or are

they destroying our kids?

You I talk a little bit about technology

and how I don't understand

uh what's happening. I don't know if

it's good that they're great at it. I

don't know if it's turning their brains

to mush. They might be way smarter than

me. They may be idiots. And so I write

jokes about that concern where I I try

to break it down. So anything that's a

concern is something that you can write

about.

I think that you have to write a lot of

jokes to get good jokes. So when I went

through all of Gary's old joke books

from the late '7s, there were thousands

of jokes

and he would come up with a premise and

sometimes he would write 20 jokes off of

a premise to try to figure out what the

best joke was.

He has a famous joke where he says, "I

have a mirror on my ceiling which has

a sign on it that says,"Objects in

mirror are larger than they appear."

It's it's such a perfect joke. It's

almost become generic. But in his

notebook were other jokes about mirrors.

So you could see he knows there's

something in mirrors. And he had a joke

that said, "I have a mirror above my bed

and below my bed." So when I make love

to a woman, it looks like I'm making

love to 140 women. I don't think he ever

did that joke, but he was playing with

the area. There was another section

where he he thought it was funny to say,

"I have a hospital bed in my bedroom."

Then he just listed jokes below it. This

way there's always a nurse available to

help us. This way there's always oxygen.

this way.

There are bars on the side of the bed

and we won't fall out. And it went on

and on and on and on. And I'm sure at

some point he said, "Okay, these two out

of the 20 that I wrote." But he

certainly looked at it as a job that

required writing an enormous amount of

jokes to get to jokes which were good

enough to survive in the act. So, the

best advice you could give any stand-up

comedian is write a lot of jokes and put

time into it and see it as a writing um

job, not just a performing job.

Well, there are different types of

of of jokes, you know. You have short

jokes, you have, you know, oneliners,

you have ideas that you explore a little

bit, then you have stories. I I've been

trying to learn more about how to tell

longer stories. I'm a big fan of Mike

Biga who who tells you know five 10

minute stories and I was asking him

about it one day and he said the key to

writing long stories is if you know your

basic punchline if you know at the end

it all leads to this and you have this

great 90 seconds you can just keep

building around it and that could be

turned into 10 minutes because you know

the core of it. So, for example, I tell

a story in my Netflix special about

throwing out the first pitch at the Mets

game. Now, I know what the punchline is,

which is I did it very badly, and then

afterwards, I saw a photograph of it,

and the photo looks crazy, and I'm

staring at the ball as I'm throwing it,

and I look like Jerry Lewis, and it

doesn't even reach the catcher.

So I I have an end and I show the photo

and I know it ends well. So then the

question becomes what else is there? And

I I just thought about every stage of

it. Getting asked to do it, how I felt

about saying yes or no, what my history

was as someone who was a terrible

athlete but who also wanted to prove he

could have been a good athlete. And then

I talked about practicing

the throw and then about going to the

stadium and meeting all the players and

not knowing who they were because I

don't follow baseball and how

uncomfortable that was. And then about

the instructions and then about

panicking right before I threw the ball

and walking all the way into the

outfield to say hello to a player

because I didn't know where to go and

what to do. Um, and then about how the

pitcher looked at me like, "Get off my

mound. I have work to do right now." And

so each idea was another minute,

turning it into a 10-minute story. And I

do think that that's great advice, which

is if you know the core of your great

story, you could keep saying, "Well,

what can I add to it? What other parts

of this can I illuminate? You know, what

else happened?"

Okay, so then here's what happens. This

woman walks up to me and she says,

"Okay, what you're going to do is you're

going to stand right here." And then the

announcer is going to say, "Throwing out

the first pitch is Jud Appattow.

Jud, time to throw out the first pitch."

And then it hit me. Oh no, there's

50,000 people here. And when they say my

name, I'm about to find out how much the

world likes me. Do you know what I mean?

Because if they said throwing out the

first pitch, Drake, the place would

probably go crazy. How much will they

applaud for me? And the answer is so

little.

It was so quiet. It's I felt so bad. It

was literally as quiet as if they said,

"Throwing out the first pitch is

Manhattan Burough President A

Silverstein."

So I run out to the mound, but my heart

is broken and I get confused about what

to do. I forget all the instructions.

I'm like, what's happening?

And I'm like, who am I supposed to talk

to? Is there someone I'm supposed to

talk to here? And the only person I see

is the pitcher, Jacob Deg Grom. So, I

start walking to him and he's in the

outfield. And as I'm walking, I realize

I'm way too far away from the mound

right now. Like, I am in the outfield.

And then he turns and looks at me like,

I'm about to pitch against the Yankees

in New York. Why the [ __ ] are you

talking to me? And then he had this look

in his eyes, and I'm not saying this is

what it was. I'm sure it wasn't, but it

felt very anti-Semitic.

I'm sure it wasn't, but I felt it. And

so then I ran to the mound. I'm like,

and it went straight. It did go

straight,

but not very far.

The best advice I got early on was from

Larry Miller, and I think Seinfeld

echoes this advice, which is standup

comedy is about writing. It's about

writing jokes. It's about writing your

act. Yet, most comedians sleep till 2 in

the afternoon, go to the mall, watch a

movie, go eat, and do the show. And

maybe somewhere in there they might

think of a line, maybe not. There might

be weeks in between when they think of

uh one joke and the next joke. And Larry

Miller said, "It's a job. You should sit

at a desk for a few hours every day and

try to write jokes and try to write

routines. That's part of it. It's not

just the 15 minutes or hour that you're

performing that night. sit your ass at a

desk and put effort in and think what

would be the big deal if you took five

hours a day to write jokes. Why do you

think you shouldn't sit for five hours a

day? People go to work minimum eight

hours a day. A lot of people putting in

10 hours a day. So, it really is about

finding the discipline to be a writer in

addition to being a performer. you know,

if I have a set,

you know, this week, I I try to make

sure I have at least five or six new

things to say every time I get up on

stage. This way, I can, you know, do the

normal act for seven minutes. And in my

head, I I think, okay, but for three

minutes of this, I'm going to try some

stuff. And if out of that three minutes,

one minute's good, you know, then every

time you get on stage, you could add a

minute of new material.

jokes in a way are the same as a script

because you're always just trying to

make it better. You do have first drafts

and then you have rewrites and that's

the same for your acts. You have a joke

that works. Now you have to turn it into

a routine and every night you perform it

and you take out the bad stuff and you

try to add something that you think

might be better. It's also very similar

to editing. You cut a version of a scene

and then you show it to people and if

they don't laugh as much as you want,

you might look at your material and say,

"Oh, I'm going to try this line reader.

This is this might be funnier." Or, "Oh,

this is a different version of the line.

They said a completely different line of

dialogue there. I'll try that." and

you're improving the scene with every

screening. And that's what standup is.

Every time you go up, you're retooling

it uh and seeing if the new version

works because what is uh writing for

standup really about? You're you're

basically creating a speech. So, your

dream is you have an hour speech and

you're you're writing it line by line

over years. And if a line works, you you

put it in the column of stuff that

works. And you try 20 lines. And if one

or two works, you put it in the column

that works. And then suddenly it becomes

a set. At first, it might be 5 minutes

or 10 minutes. It could turn into 20

minutes. And you're constantly trying to

be tough on that set. You may find you

have an hour, but it's mediocre. And

then you start removing things and

adding things that are better till you

think it's as strong as it can be. It is

helpful to write on stage. A lot of

people, you know, have the gift of

having a half-formed idea and just

talking to the audience and working it

out with people. Some people are great

at that. Some people are terrible at

that. I know Gary Shandling liked to do

that. He he would have setups and maybe

a notion of a comedic idea for the punch

line and he would start playing in a

club. Uh, but that's not really

something you can do when you first

start performing because you're probably

terrible at it at this point. So, you

might as well try to write a good joke

and give it its best

In order to be a good stand up, you have

to get a lot of stage time and and so a

lot of the work of it is, you know,

knowing where you can get up. Every time

you get up, you'll you'll get better.

When I moved to Los Angeles, I couldn't

get on at any of the clubs like the

Improv or the Laugh Factory. I wasn't

good enough. So, I had to do open mics

for

a year and I would drive far away. And

this is a, you know, it's a simple

lesson, but again, it's about hard work,

which is I realized that there were open

mics at comedy clubs where there weren't

that many comedians signing up, but they

were far away. So, if you tried to do it

at the comedy store, the improv, there

was a zillion people trying to get on.

But if you drew drove an hour away to

Orange County, there were 12 people

trying to get on and you could do seven

minutes instead of two minutes. So I

would drive uh really far to get stage

time for no money for a long time

because I knew that it was valuable. So

for me it was always about making that

extra effort and being smart about what

you needed to accomplish.

When I started out, I was living with

Adam Sandler in the Valley and he was a

bit of a rising star at the improv. Bud

Freeman saw him in New York and said,

"If you move to LA, I'll put you on

stage a lot." And so he moved to LA and

uh we lived together. Uh but he was

getting, you know, pretty good spots and

a lot of spots. I wasn't in at the

improv and I would perform outside of

LA. I would drive far away to get spots

anywhere. And then at some point I

thought I think I'm ready to show Bud

Freriedman my set. And I did and he kind

of liked it but didn't love it. Um but I

was asked to come back in six months.

They saw some promise and then I left.

Didn't go to the improv for six months.

really worked hard on it and then I got

in at the improv and they would use me

as an MC four or five nights a week. So

I was able to go on between every

comedian and see everybody's act. Um

but I also was forced to try to figure

out a way to be funny in between acts

which was very difficult. So if Jerry

Seinfeld got off and Ellen Jenner was

about to go on and I was on for 20

seconds in the middle, I had to figure

out how can I get the crowd to pay

attention in this transition and uh to

get a a laugh somehow. That's how I

would try out material in between

everybody. And sometimes these uh

situations which seem awful

really help you get stronger. Uh even

now I feel like I'm much more

comfortable in front of people because I

MCD all those hours and had to be a host

and it wasn't considered the great thing

to do at the club but it actually paid

off for me as I'm just very uh host

hostly now.

The audience wants to believe you know

what you're doing. And if you carry

yourself like you know what you're

doing, it will all go better. But it's

very hard to learn how to do that

because you actually have to get good at

it in order to have the feeling of

knowing what you're doing to then look

like you know what you're doing. So

there are people who are terrible and

are very comfortable on stage and it's

probably much easier for them. But for a

lot of people, it takes years to not be

nervous because they know, "I'm not very

good. This probably won't go well." So

the the the quicker you can get to

losing some of your nerves and being

comfortable on stage, the better you're

probably going to do. And probably the

simplest advice you could get as a

stand-up comedian

is to talk to the audience as if you're

telling them something interesting.

Because if you're not thinking, "This

better be the funniest thing ever. I

better get a huge laugh and instead

you're thinking,"I just going to open up

and talk to these people and have an

interesting conversation." Uh then they

enjoy it regardless of how many laughs

you get. If you have something new to

say and uh something that

you know in a normal conversation you

would think, "Oh, that was interesting

that he told me about that." uh then

there's a way to succeed as a comedian

before you really know how to get the

big laughs. So if I was to tell a a

story I I I tell a story on stage about

having a business lunch with one of the

people who played Batman.

It's kind of an interesting story

whether or not I could land the joke or

not because the details are interesting.

So I think part of the work is to figure

out how to have a conversation with the

crowd. That doesn't mean they're

answering, but you speak to them as if

you're having a conversation. Where your

intention is to be worth hearing, where

you don't think, if I don't get giant

laughs, I failed. You know, it's okay to

think I can be interesting. I can be

worth listening to. And then slowly I'll

figure out how to support it with bigger

and bigger laughs. My daughter binges,

but she won't let us change the channel

till she completes the entire series.

And it's never like a show like Faulty

Towers where there's 12. It's always

like, "Let's binge Friends." There's

like 390 episodes. So, we're watching

Friends the other day, and I didn't

remember this part of Friends. Was it a

thing in the '9s that on every episode

of Friends, Rachel's nipples are popping

through her shirt. So, that was a thing.

I didn't know cuz I'm watching it and

like every episode I'm like, "This is

crazy. It doesn't matter if it's a

t-shirt or denim, it's just coming

through."

So, as a family, we're like, "Is this

something that people talked about?" And

we get on the internet and we're

googling it like, "Rachel, friends,

nipples, was this a thing in the '9s?"

And all these videos came up, montages

of nipples to music. And we sat around

the computer watching it. And we had the

best time as a family.

The thing that hurts most comedians is

what we used to call the the wideeyed

panic. If you do a joke and it doesn't

work and you look thrown, uh, it's it's

much harder because then the next joke

they may not laugh at just because you

look so scared. So, you have to have a

weird uh, bravado. And it also helps to

seem amused by yourself. In watching a

lot of footage of Gary Chandling doing

standup, I noticed that he always looked

like he was discovering the material. He

never looked like he was just reciting

something that was written. It all felt

like it was off the top of his head. And

he laughed along with you at how

ridiculous a lot of these situations

were or these ideas were. And because he

was having fun, it made it more fun.

in doing the documentary about Gary

Chanling, a lot of what he wrote about

in journals he kept when he first

started doing standup was uh about

being comfortable being yourself.

And this idea that if you could clear

your mind of all of your concerns

and just try to be yourself

that the natural talented part of you

could surface and take control. So it's

about being comfortable dropping

everything and

and knowing that your comedy will then

come. And if you're thinking a thousand

things,

there's a, you know, there's a distance

between you and the audience. There's a

section in Gary's journals where he

talks about stage fright.

And he says stage fright is not about

living in the now. It's about living in

the future, wondering if you're going to

do well. And as a result, you're not

present. And the audience can feel that

you're not present. And his solution was

to realize that no matter what he did on

stage, he was always Gary. If he was

nervous, he was Gary. If he was

comfortable, he he he was Gary. There

was no way for him not to be Gary. So

why worry about it? Because he's already

Gary. His goal is to be Gary on stage

and it's already happening. He's already

succeeded. So he he can drop all the

crap around it and just be comfortable

being himself and trusting his innate

sense of humor. He also said something

about

your character. And what he said was,

"People

go to see Elvis Presley. They don't

really go to see the songs. The songs in

a way don't matter.

they're interested in him and him as a

person and as a performer and he felt

that way about standup. Yes, you're

trying to make all your jokes great, but

ultimately,

you know, you're selling your whole

persona and it's really about the

audience hooking into you

uh and and and this character that you

are or this character you've created.

And so he used to write a lot about, you

know, don't worry about the jokes as

much. Just be Gary and then you'll

succeed.

It is very hard to get comfortable. I I

had diarrhea for years. I would pace the

halls and and it it was physically

difficult for a very long time. Until

you have a sense it's probably going to

go okay, it can be very scary. There are

a lot of comedians though that enjoy

that awkward space. They like when it's

weird. They like when it's not going

well. That's easier to do when you

already know how to do it. But John

Stewart in an interview I did for my

book Sick in the Head said, "You have to

learn how to lean into the bomb." And I

think what he means is

you don't want to think, "Oh god, I wish

this was going better." You want to lean

into it and go, "This is fun. How weird

this is getting." So, you may not be

able to get rid of your nerves, but you

could look at them from a different

point of view.

Some people really love the bomb. It's

like Andy Calfman on some level. He

wasn't thinking I must please these

people. He was trying to create a moment

and playing with the whole idea of this

relationship with the audience. You

know, there's one type of relationship

which is I'm trying to amuse you and

entertain you and I hope you like me.

And there's another version which is I'm

going to manipulate your emotions and

I'm not just interested in you liking

this. I might be interested in making

you unhappy. I might be interested in

making you deeply uncomfortable and then

swinging that back into something funny.

And maybe you could even play with the

weird energy in the room. Nor McDonald's

like that. If you watch old weekend

update uh pieces he would do, he'd come

on and do some, you know, filthy Charles

Caralt character. And when the jokes

aren't working, he slows down and you

could tell he has no interest in

pleasing the audience. He's getting such

a kick out of making them more

uncomfortable. He's enjoying how weird

and unpleasant it's getting. and and

that makes it incredibly fun to watch.

So, there's all sorts of ways to work

this relationship with the crowd that

isn't just here's a funny thing, I hope

you like it.

When I started doing standup, I didn't

really have a persona. It's very hard to

figure out who you are. It takes a very

long time. So, in the beginning, I would

just cut out ads for the Oprah Winfrey

show and and read how strange the guests

were. I you I remember putting on wigs,

having props. It was really terrible. I

had a lot of jokes about being bad. My

biggest laughs were were jokes that

acknowledged that it wasn't going well.

So, I would always close and say, you

know, you don't learn anything about how

to be funny from getting laughs. You

only learn from not getting laughs. And

I've received a college education

tonight. Thank you. And I would get a

laugh and I would get off. But I really

didn't know who I was. And

I think slowly I found a way to talk

about what was happening in my life as a

guy who was 19, 20, 21 years old. But

none of it was really that good to be

honest because I had no experience. Uh,

what am I going to talk about? High

school. The main piece of advice that JJ

Wall gave me and a lot of people

repeated was that it would take about

seven years to develop your character as

a stand-up comedian. It would take you

seven years to find your voice. Now,

what that did to me as someone who

learned this at 15, 16 years old is it

made me slow down. It made me think,

okay, this takes a while. This is a

process. You're not going to be great in

the first month or the first year or the

first three years. So, when I eventually

started doing standup comedy when I was

17, I was very comfortable being

terrible. I just thought this is the

stage you go through. You just got to

get on stage and start doing it and

you're going to find it, but it's going

to be awful for a while. And having this

7-year time horizon,

it made me work harder. It made me

patient

and in my head was a crazy thought which

was I'm 17. I will be Eddie Murphy by

the time I'm 24. So I misunderstood the

advice. I thought at 24 I'm the biggest

star in the world. But but that was a

very important lesson because I think a

lot of people get ahead of themselves

and they get impatient and they don't

put in the time and they don't work hard

enough. They they want it to come

quickly. So not thinking that was was

very helpful.

When I started, you would always have

people that you would do open mic with

and these are the people, you know, that

you hung around with and tried to figure

out how to do this. Where are the gigs?

How do you write a better joke? How how

can you make this a career? How can you

get rid of your day job? So, I started

with people like Doug Benson and Andy

Kindler, and we would see each other at

all of these terrible gigs.

And it was really exciting. It's

exciting to be young and have a dream

and be willing to kill for your dream.

And you can feel

you can feel it when someone is going to

put in the time and the effort to

really try to make it. There were always

people that seemed like they had one

foot out the door. And there were other

people that you were never going to get

them to quit. And I and especially in

comedy, I think you have to be one of

those people. If there's any part of you

that would quit, it's very difficult.

you have to be completely

single-minded and focus to do it because

comedy is one of the only jobs uh that

you have to be bad while doing it. So if

you're a doctor, they make you, you

know, operate on a cadaavver. They don't

trust you with real people. But when

you're terrible at comedy, you still

have to do it in front of people who

paid to see you. It's a very like

strange

way to learn how to do something. You

have to be bad in front of people who

are truly disappointed when you are bad.

And that's what makes you strong. It's

what gives you uh thick skin. And you

can only learn by doing it. And slowly,

night by night, you you figure it out.

And then you decide how much you like

it. Some people get to a certain point

and they go, I don't really like doing

this. I don't like traveling around. I

don't like the rejection. I don't like

how little money I get paid for so many

years, hoping one day it'll pay off. And

they stop. And then other people keep

going. Uh and and those are the

survivors.

when I was young I didn't think much

about using personal stories in my work

I didn't even know that that existed I

didn't think about any of that I think

the first time I became consciously

aware of people doing that was when I

worked for Gary shanding at the Larry

Sanders show because so many of the

stories came from his

life so for instance once Dana Carvey

did an impression of him on Saturday

Night Live and it was kind of rough it

was a hilarious impression but a little

mean and Gary talked to him on the phone

I guess he was

apologizing for it I think he blamed it

on the writer Robert Smigel as most

things should be blamed on him

and Gary said don't worry about it we'll

just do an episode about it and

then uh they wrote an episode where Dana

Carvey was guest hosting and when he uh

guest hosted he did a mean impression of

Larry Sanders and Larry was trying to

act like he was okay with it but he was

really not okay with it and he turned it

into a story my God look at my hair

does my ass look too TI in these pants

or what I mean look at my ass I'm

touching my ass um I'm going to go get

your uh fruit

okay so iess I guess you're going to do

it huh yeah good good well now that you

kind of seen it does it does it bother

you honestly same disguise I think

Michael Jackson wears when he goes to

Disneyland isn't it uh it's a bit over

the top yes but that's how I do these

things I mean you know my hope is that

it's so abstract so cartoony that it

wouldn't be offensive to you know I mean

like well George Bush is just like not

going to do that wouldn't they you know

I mean and if you've seen me do Jay Leno

become yeah I can't even and you are

just so that's my hope I mean so you're

all right is it all

right it bothers you so that had a big

impression on me that Gary who had

hosted The Tonight Show created this

character that was dealing with the

stresses of basically hosting a show

like The Tonight Show and he was uh he

was Excavating all of his

Neurosis uh through this character Gary

always said that he felt like he wasn't

that similar to the character because he

said Larry Sanders would not know how to

make the Larry Sanders show that he

would not be self-aware enough to make

fun of himself and saiz himself and

write stories about himself but Gary

certainly understood that that he was a

man with the Neurosis that had ego that

was uh someone who was pursuing success

and that that ego was preventing him

from making certain human

connections I guess on some level when

we started uh kicking around stories for

Freaks and Geeks I was aware that we all

would have to share what happened to us

in our childhoods and that would become

the stories for the show so Paul had a

zillion stories and when this show ended

he wrote several books with even more

stories that he didn't even tell us when

we did Freaks and Geeks about his

different uh childhood humiliations so

the first week in the writers room uh

for Freaks and Geeks you know we created

a questionnaire for all the writers and

it was questions like what drugs did you

do in high school what's the the worst

you ever got in trouble by your parents

who was the first girl you kissed uh

what's the farthest you got with a girl

in high school how what what is the

worst humiliation that happened with a

girl like a hundred questions and

everybody filled them out and that

started conversations in the writers

room about which of those answers could

be stories and a lot of them became

Stories the the stories that I related

to uh were often about divorce my

parents broke up when I was a kid so I

thought oh we should find a way to show

that because when I was a kid by the

time high school is over almost every

family was divorced in our in our friend

group so Sam

lavine's uh storyline has to do uh with

him discovering that his dad cheats on

mom and one way he dealt with it was by

becoming obsessed with

ventriloquism and he starts getting uh

Angry through the puppet so the puppet's

vicious but it's really how he's feeling

about the fact that he has this secret

that his dad cheats on his

mom that happened to me uh when I was a

a kid I had some instinct to be obsessed

with comedy and at one point I was

obsessed with trying to learn how to

juggle but really I was just mad about

what was happening in my house and

looking for a way to escape through a

talent uh and I also uh you know was uh

involved in a lot of discussions about

Bill's family uh because

Bill's mom was a single parent we

implied that she was a stripper at one

point and then his mom starts dating the

gym teacher that he hates and I think a

lot of the writing staff related to that

a lot of people came from broken homes

and it was always very uncomfortable

when our parents would start dating new

people and we thought if we honestly

showed how uncomfortable that is for the

child to suddenly have some dude in your

house acting comfortable who clearly

just had sex with your mom that that

would be funny but also it's real and we

all can relate to how strange it is when

your family falls apart and then starts

reconstituting itself with new Step

relatives one of the episodes uh that

I directed had a sequence where we

see Martin star's character Bill huk

come home from school and it's all done

to a who song called

I'm one but he makes himself a grilled

cheese sandwich he sits down and it's a

little sad he's by himself he's a latchy

kid he puts on the TV he starts watching

the dinosur show while he's eating a

grilled cheese sandwich and chocolate

Tim's cake simultaneously back and

forth and then Gary shanding comes on as

the guest on the din Shore show and

slowly as the music builds he starts

laughing in until he's hysterically

laughing at Gary

Shandy I'm

one I am one

and I can see that this is me and I will

be you all see I'm the

one I'm the

one I'm the

one now this is what I did my entire

childhood I would just go home make

grilled cheese sandwiches or hamburgers

and eat them with chocolate cake one

spoon of each or one bite of each

and I watched comedy and it made me

really happy and I had those moments

where I would sit home alone like we

were like I was in the middle of a party

filled with a hundred people I was just

laughing having the best sometimes I

would just scream like like alone I was

so happy watching Jeff Alman or or Jay

Leno on a talk show so after we put that

scene together Jake Kasin who was one of

the producers and directors on the show

he said to me that's the most personal

thing you ever did and that's the best

thing

you've ever done and it made me realize

that that was the path forward that in

the way that Gary was working and Paul

Fe was working that's how I should be

working from a more

personal

Place sometimes uh you know when you're

writing you're you're basically you know

coming up with original ideas out of uh

thin air you're remembering things that

you've heard things that you've observed

and you're taking things that happened

to you and using all of that as the

ingredients in some soup of what you're

creating when our child was born you

know we had this night where we had all

of these nightmares happen uh that night

and I remember thinking this is crazy it

and it it felt like a movie you know our

doctor said don't worry I'll be at the

delivery and that's all we cared about

you can be at the delivery we don't want

someone else because a lot of doctors

have backup doctors well if I'm not

there Ted will be there and we said no

we don't want Ted we want you are you

going to be around and our doctor was

like you're you don't have to worry at

all I'm going to be

around and we went to the doctor and

when uh you know suddenly it was going

down we called the doctor and the office

said uh he is in uh San Francisco go to

bar

medva and he didn't warn us we never met

a backup doctor in his office and then

suddenly they're sending us to the

backup doctor and they won't let us

speak to him they won't put us through

to him they won't have him call us so

this guy who said you can trust me this

is not something you need to worry about

was gone and now we're headed to the

hospital and we literally don't have a

doctor and we have to call the doctor

that we met with that we decided not to

use as our doctor and have that doctor

come and deliver the baby and that

doctor felt a little

disgruntled and not happy to be woken up

not happy to be the second choice and a

series of events

happened and I just just made a note in

my mind oh this is the end of a of some

kind of a movie so that becomes one of

the elements and then you fabricate and

it it's not exact actly uh what happened

in the in the final version but there

are moments in life where you know this

is just a scene uh for instance I was in

the hallway with the doctor and the

doctor was was being very mean to us uh

and I took him out of the hallway to beg

him to stop being so mean and as I was

talking to him my stomach growled like I

was going to [ __ ] on the floor just from

the nerves of the night and how mean he

was being to us uh you know some doctors

don't like to be collaborative and

answer questions and try to figure out

what to do together so right as I'm

asking him to please can you be nice my

stomach

goes and he looked at me like oh my god

what have I done to these people that

his stomach is doing this and then from

that moment on he suddenly changed and

tried to be nicer and I thought well

that's that's a funny scene uh in a

movie we have a new birth plan get the

baby out safely look man will you help

us out I have no idea what I'm doing you

can be as big a dick to me as you want

just be nice to her man that's all I ask

just please be nice to

her are you okay

I think

so I'm sorry but most of the time you

know you're using those uh real life

moments as ingredients that you then

change and and turn into something

completely different or uh you know or

inspired by things that have happened in

your life

how crashing was created was

Pete asked me to be in a sketch when he

had a talk

show and in the sketch he was pitching

me bad ideas for movies and television

and in the middle of an

improv I said

no but seriously what's your story you

know be real with

me and he basically pitched me crashing

in the middle of a

sketch there's a guy he wants to be a

comedian and he catches his wife

cheating on him and he's been very

religious but now he moves to New York

and he's not a very good

comedian and uh he questions his faith

he tries

to you know be a part of this comic

world and my response in the sketch was

oh that won't work it's too

sad I thought that you had a lot of

ideas I do do you have anything else

that's not sci-fi magic or something

done already okay there's a man he's 22

he gets married because he's religious

and then six years later his wife cheats

on him with a small Italian man oh and

uh and then I get my heartbroken but I

learn Life Lessons m

that that doesn't seem like a comedy at

all that just seems tragic and sad

that's my that's that was my that's my

life that's too sad see I think no one

would want to see that cuz it's just so

sad but I'm over it look at me I don't

know if you are over it you have this

whole stance of positivity but you can

feel the pain is right there and it

throws me but then I like redefine my

faith and start stripping a bunch of

random brush that's even

sadder but after we shot the

sketch at some point Pete came back to

me and said I actually think that would

be a good idea the one I said as a joke

in the sketch and we started talking

about

it so that entails me asking Pete for

all the real details of his life so we

sit for a very long time and he tells me

his story how he became a comedian what

were all the stages where did he live

how long did it take to get good

how did he finally get some respect how

did he feed himself when he wasn't

making money doing

standup and then we talk about what is

the essence of this what what would the

the series be

about and on one level shley crashing is

about the Journey of a of a

man

from first starting out and being a

crappy comedian to figuring out who he

is and becoming a really good comedian

and maybe having some success and seeing

the ups and downs and and a journey

towards whatever that career is because

it could be success and then crazy

failure we don't know yet the show just

shot it second season but the Arc of his

career and then there's the emotional

story so you

have a guy who uh is is based on Pete uh

who's very

religious and he was raised uh to be a

pastor and at some point he realized

that he preferred

standup and now that he is living in New

York City

and is entering the world of comedians

people are challenging all of his

beliefs so he's trying to hold on to his

soul and his goodness and his beliefs

while now living in the world of comic

both nice comics and degenerate Comics

hey man you bumped

me what yeah you bumped me took my spot

see I'm supposed to do coar tomorrow

night if I have a bad sent on coar

tomorrow you're going to be halfway to a

ass whooping I'm sorry man they they

said I had to go on somebody had to go

on cuz you were late no I wasn't late I

was on time the show was running early

I'm sorry yeah look at you you got that

same stupid looking eyes I had 20 years

ago what' you want to do before stand up

I went to school to be a youth pastor

youth pastor I can see that that's

that's you that's good hey man look you

can help a lot of people because you

definitely ain't helping nobody here

with that hor [ __ ] you just did I just

had a really hard day seen a lot of

people Crash and Burn and I want to save

you from a crash and a

burn quit by ah head Greer give the guy

a break he's not going to [ __ ] you okay

I think he likes women hang in there

buddy and so that's what the the

development process uh is like it's a

discussion of the truth then it's a

discussion of okay but what would make

this amusing to watch and then a

discussion of the Thematic ideas that

will drive this like what are we

watching this for we're watching this to

see if he can find a way to succeed

we're watching this to see if he can

hold on to his faith uh in the face of

uh the Dark World of uh of comedy and

we're also watching this to see if he

can find love again after his wife

cheats on him how will he be in a

relationship and then we just start

trying to come up with ideas for

episodes and in

riffing you know a 100 ideas for

episodes the show begins to reveal

itself how much should it take place at

the club how much should it take place

where he lives the premises that he

lives on people's couches because he has

no money should he sleep on a couch for

one episode or three episodes will he

always sleep on couches during what

season does he get his own apartment

when does he start making money uh and

so we start talking about the fiveyear

Arc of the series and how we think it

might move through five

seasons and maybe that'll all get tossed

out the window but that's how we develop

it

how Knocked Up was uh developed was one

day Seth Rogan was pitching

me movie ideas and they were all very

imaginative large maybe science fiction

type of Comedy ideas probably more in

the world of This Is the End which is a

brilliant

movie that's also a type of movie that

he likes to do which I personally don't

think I'm very good at doing I like

things that are as small as they can be

so Seth was pitching me this imaginative

comedic film and I said Seth you don't

need to do all that to be funny in The

40-Year-Old Virgin you're funny just in

the stock room sitting there you don't

need any of this you could just get a

girl

pregnant and watching you deal with it

would be

funny and then I realized oh that's that

actually would be a a good movie and so

that was the initial idea which is what

happens when

you meet someone you don't know them at

all and suddenly you have to handle this

thing which is very difficult which is

pregnancy and having a baby and

everything that comes afterward so we we

took something and uh and then made

something up you you know which was this

this pressure and the idea that they

didn't seem like a good couple so that

was uh

created uh in a in a classic comedy way

to create The Odd Couple uh you know who

would be the

weirdest couple but we had a lot of

trouble figuring out who should be with

Seth because Seth is such a strong

personality he's so funny he such an

edgy sense of humor and it's a rough

sense of humor it's argumentative he's

got a deep loud voice and we didn't want

him to be a bully to the woman who gets

pregnant then one day Katherine hiel

came in and she is so

strong that instantly everything became

hysterical the whole thing took off and

it never read as well with anybody else

and then we had to rewrite it for this

Dynamic so sometimes you're starting

with a a kernel of an idea and then

you're just

layering stuff that you're seeing with

your actors and actresses and making

stuff up and you create this whole new

new world but the whole

time you have all these experiences that

you've had and then you're saying well

what would happen if it happened to

these people last night was great what I

remember of it right yeah yeah no it was

fun we had a great time yeah so what do

you do I work at e the television

channel uhhuh remember wow we had this

conversation last night I I told you

about my promotion I was out celebrating

it no no I have I don't remember that at

all yeah I'm super excited about it I'm

actually doing my first on Air interview

today so with who uh Matthew Fox Matthew

Fox from Lost yeah you know what's

interesting about him what nothing what

were you tell him he's an [ __ ] for me

someone needs to like like who gives a

[ __ ] well I hope a lot of people

actually because that's what my job

entails is making sure people care what

he has to say I I'm interviewing him

maybe it's just me maybe I just don't

give a [ __ ] I'm just saying he deserves

a Beatdown uh sort of embarrassing to

ask at this point but what do you do for

work me and my roommates have started a

we're starting an internet website oh

cool what is it give you the virtual

experience okay how's that let you're at

your computer mhm who's an actress you

like like Mary Tyler

Moore no that does not work at all no

okay let's say you

love Meg Ryan I do great who doesn't

let's say you like her so much you want

to know every movie where she shows her

tits so these people aren't me and lesie

or Seth and Lauren now it's these

characters that were created and then it

becomes its own thing but the core of it

is pregnancy is scary

and it's even scarier if you do not know

the person at all and it happens after

not even a first day just a hookup in a

bar

I always think

that people should look at comedies as

dramas when they're writing it really

doesn't help to think of these stories

as comedy stories they should be stories

that would work just as well without any

jokes if you have a great story and

great

characters it's easy to find a way to

make it funny the problem with a lot of

comedies is they're serving a comedic

premise primarily and they don't really

have a reason to exist you could say

that the The 40-Year-Old Virgin could

have fallen prey to that it is a high

concept The 40-Year-Old Virgin but other

than the title it doesn't mean anything

so we don't approach it as a funny idea

we we approach it as a real idea about a

guy who let something get past him and

now he's so embarrassed and so scared

that he can't do it and scared that if

anyone agrees to have sex with him it's

going to be so bad that he'll be

revealed as the freak that he worries

that he is and in some way he's decided

he doesn't want that to happen anymore

and that's a dramatic story about shame

uh and about someone who is uh you know

stuck as a as a pubescent

person and if you take it seriously then

suddenly his predicament can become

funny because

he he is he is in a corner there was a

playwright John gu did I pronounce that

correctly I don't know the guy who wrote

The House of Blue leaves and he said all

plays or putting someone in a corner and

seeing how they get out of it and a lot

of my

movies take that advice I generally just

think difficult circumstances lend

themselves to Comedy

and for instance Knocked Up is about an

unplanned pregnancy that doesn't wak of

hilarity but then it's about the

characters how they manage the situation

how the relationships work and a certain

tone you create around it that allows it

to be funny but usually if you care and

you believe it it allows it to be both

dramatic and funny if you don't believe

it I think both collapse you might get a

couple of jokes in but when you you

think yeah this is happening right now

then you're fully invested and you have

a rooting interest then when things go

wrong you know you're like ah but you

also might laugh because because you

care so

much Gary would say the Larry Sanders

show is about people who love each other

but show business gets in the

way and the truth is you could say that

about most stories most stories are

about people who love each other and

what is the obstacle to that love I

think John cavetti has talked a lot

about that that all movies are just

about love I had never heard anyone talk

like this before so when the Larry

Sanders show

ended uh Paul Fe gave me the pilot for

Freaks and Geeks and that was very

personal to Paul in the way the L

Sanders show was personal to Gary it

wasn't all true but it was in inspired

by uh Paul's feelings Paul's life in

Michigan he didn't have a sister but he

had many female friends and his dad

owned a store like Joe flarity has in

the show and he liked the idea of a

family that liked each other which was

somewhat rare on television kids who lik

their parents they had problems where

they still like their parents and what I

did was I tried to apply everything I

learned from Gary

uh when working on Freaks and Geeks so

in my

head I would think that Freaks and Geeks

was just an episode of the Larry Sanders

show that happened to Star children and

I would put everything we did through

the filter of how Gary approached his

work and how the Larry Sanders show was

approached which was honestly

emotionally uh trying to be honest and

organic

uh trying to go as deep as you can go

and with a you know a

very specific sense of humor that

values the way that people are trying to

connect and are unable to so it can be a

talk show host who wants to be the

biggest talk show host in the world so

he's not great with women because he's

too self-obsessed

isn't that different than three young

nerds who are really insecure and afraid

to connect with the girls they want to

connect with because they feel like

there's no way that they will like them

that that's all part of the Same Spirit

of what are our obstacles to connection

and

love I think that people want hope so

when you see a story

where somebody is struggling and they

figure something out it it makes you

happy because that's what everyone is

going through people say are your movies

or some of your movies a Coming of Age

stories well I think every story in a

lot of ways is a Coming of Age story you

know at all stages of life you have

problems you work through problems and

you mature a little bit you know with

Knocked Up you have a guy who's fresh

out of college and he wants to live a

Carefree life he's hanging out with his

friends he's smoking pot he wants to

start his kind of porn sight and then he

he gets a woman

pregnant uh during you know one night

stand and now he's forced to mature he

has no choice but to figure out how to

be mature but underneath that is a

different story which is a guy who wants

love and he falls in love with the woman

that he accidentally impregnated and we

used to say that part of what the story

is about is he falls in love with her

before she falls in love with him you

know you he he wants this to be

real and she is very wary of him because

he's such an immature person and he has

a different Arc than her

because he now has to let go of what he

thought his his 20s were going to be and

he can't be as carefree as his friends

he has to figure out a way to be stable

and there's a great scene with Harold

RIS when he talks to his dad and he

doesn't know what to do and he also

thinks he has some

control and the dad says you don't have

any control at all over this you just

need to support

her and he has to leave the house with

his friends and get a real job and and

prove to her that he's the kind of

person that can raise this baby with her

and when she sees that he got his act

together a little bit then she begins to

fall in love with him and when it ends a

lot of people say well will they survive

I don't

know if they if they will survive uh I

just know that they both wanted to try

to see if they were a good couple to see

if they could get along and and raise

the baby and and be good parents I you

you could look at it like in the

beginning of the movie he seems happiest

when he's in a fishbowl filled with pot

smoke and at the end you see that he's

way happier holding that

baby in the hospital and and he he's

found like true joy and true love so you

know if at the end of of Knocked Up

Seth's character murdered everybody I

guess it would be a commentary on how

we're evolving as a species uh but I I

do think that that sometimes not always

you know people go to the movies to uh

see themselves reflected and to laugh at

this Human Condition and to believe that

we're all trying to get better because I

do think that's what life is all about

you live this life things happen there

are all these lessons that you're you're

forced to learn whether you like it or

not and hopefully throughout the course

of your life uh you've learned something

and and you've evolved in some way and

that's what I think all these movies

ultimately are are trying to

discuss everything always works better

if there's important

Stakes so the stakes might be am I going

to spend the rest of my life alone or

the stakes uh might

be I think I'm going to die what am I

going to do now

or I didn't die but I'm still

miserable now what so you know in any

comedy the thing that that they're

worried about or they're trying to

attain you know is is the stakes for the

for the peace and when you have the

right

Stakes these things tend to spark and if

they're low stakes you know we we tend

not to care as much we worry that Christ

and wigs character and Bri Maids is

never going to figure out the way she's

sabotaging her life and the stakes are

is she ever going to get a good job is

she ever going to meet anyone is she

going to be alone for the rest of her

life is she GNA be able to stay friends

with with Maya now that she's married

and that is why people like watching

these things because they they relate in

in to good behavior and bad behavior and

they also relate to people's dreams and

their struggles to be happy and to find

love and

relationships and you know through

comedy we see where it all goes wrong

for the most part it's everything going

wrong sometimes people will say to me

you know why do you always have

uh all these characters act so badly why

are

they behaving terribly why do they think

this way and I always say but because

they need to learn a lesson if they're

smart and

self-actualized and kind and

compassionate there's no

story stories are about people who are

messed up and need to uh figure out a

way through it or a way to grow so you

want [ __ ] up

people I'm not really interested in a

handsome happy kind lead uh even super

superheroes you know people like Tony

Stark as Iron Man because he's also you

know self-obsessed and has all sorts of

personal problems that uh

superhero nerds understand more than I

do but but that is what we like we like

that they're flawed we like that Batman

is flawed he's The Dark Knight and

that's just another way of uh expressing

these ideas why are you making me feel

bad about this you can sleep with other

girls it's like every guy's dream it's

not this guy's dream yeah this guy's got

a

dream and it's us making it getting

married moving out to the countryside

having a family three boys and two more

boys enough for a basketball team and

I'll develop a CrossFit program and

patent it and I'll rule the CrossFit

world with you by my

side you can be my CrossFit Queen

that's my

dream

hey

hey can I

leave or like can you leave I just like

I'm very high and I just kind of need

this interaction to be

over you

serious [ __ ] you Amy you want are not

nice once you have a good

story then it becomes about how rich can

you make the supporting characters in a

way that's organic to this story how

unique can this be what kind of details

can we put in this that no one's ever

done before so with a movie like the

four-year-old virgin where could he work

oh could work at a stereo store I

haven't seen that before really as a job

so that's somewhat original now what

could we do to the store to make it

funny and the place we we like hanging

out at what if they only play Michael

McDonald music 24 hours a day and it

really bothers Paul Rudd I love Michael

McDonald's but I have walked into stores

while they'll have a DVD just playing

they'll have some live Pink Floyd DVD or

something that makes the TVs look good

or the stereo sound good uh who who

would he work with maybe he has a

strange boss because the idea is he

should be the boss he's old enough to be

the boss so whoever is the boss you

should think they're not as good as

Steve so we hired Jane Lynch to play

this

strange woman and her purpose is to be

funny but it's also to make him

uncomfortable to show all the ways that

he uh is not comfortable around people

and how uncomfortable he is around

sexual people so she's talking about sex

all the time in a way that that troubles

him and then on top of that she's just a

funny person and where would he be oh he

would work in the stock room because he

doesn't want to be near all the pretty

women looking at stereos and that we

could fill the movie with characters who

were trying to take advantage of meeting

these

women uh and they would be the opposite

of him they would be people who

disrespected women and they they were

just uh looking for momentary fun and we

thought that uh you know we could you

know discuss how people approach

relationships in healthy ways and

unhealthy ways through different friends

he made so Romy malco's character was a

guy who had a girlfriend and was

cheating on her constantly and then Paul

character uh just had a terrible breakup

with Mindy

Kaling and couldn't get over

it he was he he he's almost a semi

stalker uh who's who's devastated from

this and then Seth Rogan's character

would be a little bit edgier and become

like his Yoda you think it's going to be

ramany but ultimately becomes Seth who

has all this advice about women and we

just thought that was funny like oh

that's that's not the guy you would

expect to try to guide you through your

dating okay those guys are crazy you

should listen to me okay look there is a

hot ass girl who works right there there

she is in the bookstore you should ask

her out

man something wrong with her Underpants

yeah they're not in my mouth you know I

kind of uh like the woman from the eBay

store that's great but you're not going

to get with anyone unless you play the

odds on this man you need to plant a lot

of seeds it's like this when I was

growing pot I realized that the more

thank you seeds I planted the more pot I

could ultimately smoke I think I have

all the advice that I can handle right

now don't don't get bitter I'm not

bitter I what I try to do is something

that hasn't been done like this before

so if you're always thinking about

originality then you there's you have to

be tough on it because all your first

instincts will be things that you've

seen before and the best way to be

original is to be

specific a lot of people think that my

films

uh are you know attempting to be moral

in some way and they usually say it as

an insult but uh I I do think that's uh

probably true to some some extent which

is I want people to be better I want

people to try to be better and I like

showing the struggle that people go

through to try to make that happen and I

also like to let them get

better because that's hope if you could

watch a movie about a person who's

struggling and at the end they're a

better person in the beginning it's hope

for yourself it's hope for the people

you love it's hope for the human race

and I do think that's why people go to

the movies sometimes it's to see a

Superhero uh protect the Earth but other

times it's you know to see uh everyday

problems reflected and to see how people

deal with them and to meet people you

like and to root for them to figure

something out and to evolve in some way

and that's a big thing that I always

took from James

Brooks uh from his movies and his

television workers there was always a

Grace note at the end of the stories so

they the stories would be hysterical but

a lot of the time there would be a

moment that would just touch your your

heart and for instance there's a great

episode of Taxi that that I always think

about and in the episode Louie dep is

dating a blind woman and the idea is

that she doesn't know that he's not some

handsome guy and now he find finds out

there's going to be an operation where

she's going to get her sight back and

he's terrified that she is not going to

love him when she sees him and it's very

emotional and heartbreaking and a very

funny episode and then there's the big

moment where they take the bandages off

and what will she do when she sees him

and she thinks he's

beautiful and it's very moving and it it

makes you cry it it's it's very touching

and then he leaves the

room and one of his friends says how did

it go and he basically says it went

great and then he takes this ring that

he got her and he says I guess I got to

get her a real

ring uh and to me that's perfect that's

that's it's just perfect storytelling it

got me emotionally it touched my heart

and it has the funny awful edgy joke

that stays true to the

character and that's what I'm always

trying to do in some way I'm trying to

think of a a James Brooks like Grace

note

I think when I first began to to take

writing more seriously, uh, a comedian I

looked up to, Mike Binder, uh, was, uh,

having success as a screenwriter, and he

said, uh, something I never forgot. He

said

that the first screenplay he sold was

his 10th screenplay.

And that that had a huge impact on me. I

thought, "Oh, so you have to write a

bunch of these. You don't sell the first

one."

And that took the pressure off. Oh, I'll

write one and then I'll write another

one. And that's what he said. He said,

"Jud, the second you finish a

screenplay, start the next one." A lot

of people finish a screenplay and they

just talk about it for years and they

don't sell it but they keep talking

about it and they keep showing it to

people and no one wants to make it. You

have to start the next one immediately.

And then I bought his Apple portable

computer. He had the first Apple

portable computer and I bought it from

him and that's when I started trying to

to write more seriously.

And part of that process was watching

movies and outlining the movies. I would

watch a movie, say the graduate. I

remember I sat down with Owen Wilson. We

were talking about writing a movie and

one day we said, "Let's let's take notes

on what the graduate is." We didn't have

the script. So, we just wrote down what

happened in every scene. Like, what

happens? What do we know about this guy?

And how are they telling the story? It

seems like such a unique structure. And

I remember we noticed, oh, we don't know

anything about him from college except

he ran track and he worked on the on the

school yearbook

or the school newspaper. That's the only

information we have. We don't meet any

of his friends.

That is it. And that that was an

important thing to learn. Wow. I don't

know anything about him, but I'm

fascinated by this character and I'm

learning about him based on how he

interacts with his parents and his

friend's parents.

but I'm not seeing him in the in his

world with his friends. So, it just made

me think there's all sorts of ways to

tell a story and to meet characters. Uh

you don't have to do it the the normal

way where the guy would come home from

college and then he'd be with his 15

friends and he'd be at a party and we'd

know everything about him. We don't get

to see any of that. We were fascinated

by how little happened in the graduate.

He comes from He comes home from school.

He's a little lost.

His parents' friend is hitting on him.

He has a an affair with her. Then he

falls for her daughter. And then her

daughter goes back to school and she's

engaged. And then he decides, I'm going

to go after her. That's the whole movie,

but yet it's so much more than that. And

every once in a while you realize, oh

these structures that they teach me

about how stories work and how movies

work, they are there to learn from. But

you also sometimes have to toss them out

completely because there's always a

unique innovative way to do these

things.

When I was in college, Sidfield taught

the screenwriting class. And Sidfield,

who has several books,

no new books because he's dead, but was

a very nice man who uh had a very simple

theory about how stories work. He you

know he he had his first act. Second act

is two pieces. Third act you know 25 to

30 pages a section and 30 30 30 and 30

or 25 25

and at a certain point. This is where

the story is revealed. This is where it

gets more complicated and this is the

beginning of the resolution.

And that simplicity is very helpful. His

theory was every movie works this way.

Whether they want to admit it or not,

every movie is using this structure.

Even the movies that you think are super

weird have a very simple structure. Now,

knowing that makes you less nervous

because you feel like, okay, this is

this is doable. This isn't something

mysterious and magical that I will never

crack the code on. this is uh something

that I can figure out. So sometimes when

I make a a movie I I completely stick to

it. I will put up the Sidfield paradigm

and I will hit every

spot where he says a story is supposed

to move or change. Other times I toss it

completely because I think I don't want

the audience to have any sense of where

this is going. So I need to go against

what the natural flow uh of how these

stories unfold. I do think it is true

that you should understand all of these

ideas and then be willing to toss them.

But if you understand them

in some way it's going to help you with

some fundamental issues. You know, you

start a story, you got to meet people,

and you have to explain the world you're

in and the rules of this world. And then

at some point, whether you like it or

not, you're introducing a problem. And

then at some point, that problem is

going to get worse. And then at some

point, you're either going to solve that

problem or you're going to shoot that

guy in the head and it's over. So, there

really aren't that many ways to to do

this. It feels like there are, but there

aren't.

If you look at a movie like uh The

40-year-old Virgin,

you can look at it structurally in a

Sidfield way and say

the first act is a lonely person. And we

get to know him. We get to know that

he's a virgin, that he lives alone, that

he has a job where he basically hides in

the stock room of a stereo store, and

his life is uh stuck. And by the end of

the first act, everyone else he works

with in the store figures out that he's

a virgin. So the first act is

we learn who he is, other people find

out, then they say, "We're going to help

you lose your virginity." The beginning

of the second act is their quest to

help him lose his virginity. So in one

form or another, it's a series of bad

dates.

Uh it's him at speed dating and it going

terribly wrong. It's him going out with

a drunk woman thinking that's how you

lose your virginity quickly.

Uh but then he just gets in a terrible

drunk driving accident.

That was the set piece that we thought

of because uh we were trying to say the

worst thing you could do is try to pray

upon a drunk woman. So we should uh have

him get hurt as a result. So he thinks

I'm gonna pray on this drunk woman and

then he winds up in a terrible drunk

driving accident. Uh, so a a lesson

slipped in there. So by the midpoint of

the movie that has failed.

So you could say page 1 through 30 we

find out who he is. His friends discover

his problem. 30 to 60 is the friend's

attempt to help him lose his virginity.

At the end of that act, he decides, I'm

going to do it on my own. and he pursues

Katherine Kenir who works across the

street and goes out on a date with her

and starts a relationship with her. So

page 60 to 90 is now a story about him

dating a woman who has a teenage child

and is also a grandparent.

So he goes from hiding in a stock room

to being in an intense relationship with

a complicated woman

and they have decided that they are not

going to have sex until they have gone

out 20 times.

So

page 60 to 90 is the relationship. And

then the third act,

page 90 to 120, is her finally saying,

"You know what? Forget the 20 dates. I

want to have sex now." Him having a

complete meltdown because he's so scared

that it will be bad, that he will lose

her.

And 90 to 120 is him in Meltdown,

dealing with the fact that she wants to

have sex, which finally ends with her

thinking he's a serial killer uh and

running away and him chasing after her

and then getting in this terrible uh

bike accident. And when she sees him on

the ground injured from the bike

accident, he finally admits the the

truth that he's not a serial killer,

that he's a virgin. And then her

response is, "Oh, she's actually happy

that he doesn't have experience and that

he's not a pig." And and and that's

something that she can handle. Uh, and

then we see them have sex and then we

see them get married and over the the

credits we do a big Bollywood

dance number to uh uh let the sun uh

shine in from from hair. So that

structure is the Sidfield structure.

It's exactly the Sidfield structure.

Now, it's very

it's very complicated at the same time

because you're using a simple structure,

but you're trying to do everything scene

for scene in an innovative, hilarious,

original way.

Every beat of it, we're saying, well,

how can we do this in a way that we

haven't seen before? We've seen

the sequence where you take the virgin

and you try to make him hipper and you

get him new clothes and you get him a

haircut. It's the the makeover montage.

We've seen it in Pretty Woman. It's been

in a zillion movies and we knew that and

we we wrote it. Uh I wrote the film with

Steve Carell based on his idea.

And then we said, "Well, maybe we don't

need to do all of those things. We could

just do one."

And the one was that he decided that he

needed to be waxed. That Romney Malco's

character said, "You you have to

manscape yourself."

And even that maybe not the most

innovative idea. And then one day Steve

Carl said, "You know, the only way this

is funny is if we really do it. That if

you put multiple cameras on me and

actually wax me, it will hurt so much

that I I'll be funny. I'll be funny."

And then we we came up with this idea

that he would curse out the woman

tearing the hair off of him, which was

based on when I was a kid, we used to go

uh on these carts that would go down a

hill on these cement paths at at these

places like Action Park. And everyone

would fly off the path

and their arm would slide down the

cement and they would have these giant

red gashes and then you'd have to go to

the nurse and the nurse would put

something on it that kept it from

getting infected. And it hurt so much

that as she did it, every single person

was like, "You motherfucker."

And I always remembered how funny that

was because it didn't matter, you know,

she'd be like, "Okay, this is going to

hurt a little bit. That's okay. Okay,

here we go. [ __ ] you, you bitch." And

and we thought, "Okay, so that's that's

the joke is the the cursing."

And um so the day that we shot it, we we

had three or five cameras and we just

wrote out a list of curses, some filthy,

some just Kelly Clarkson. And we did it

for real, semi-improvising it as we

went.

[ __ ] You pulled a pulled. Why did you

pull

pole?

No. Kelly Clarkson.

Yo, y'all done?

Oh, that's [ __ ] up.

Oh, that's [ __ ] up.

Why? I hate you. I hate you. Stop

smiling, you jerk.

We were trying to do something

innovative and and uh it it certainly

worked. Steve uh basically said that he

had never been waxed before, but I

believe that he had been waxed many

times before. I think he lied to me and

he he knew what waxing felt like and did

it monthly, but he said he had him.

But what you're trying to do when you're

in a structure like that is you're

you're trying to do something unique and

original in in every scene.

Sometimes uh when I'm working I am

working with a very conventional

Sidfield inspired structure

that is more like the 40-year-old Virgin

and Train Wreck where

it is following traditional rules and

just trying to do it in a very original

unique way.

I also like

movies like Robert Alman movies and John

Civvetti's movies where you really don't

feel

classic structure and the fact that you

don't know where a movie is going is

what's pulling you into the movie. And

that's something that we did, you know,

first with with Funny People.

And in a movie like Funny People, you

would assume that it would be about a

guy who gets sick and then he gets

better and then it's over. But really

what it was about was a guy who gets

sick, gets better, and you realize he's

even more screwed up when he's better.

And he needs a bit of a beatdown to

reorient himself to be a less selfish

person. So the structure is odd in the

sense that the movie is about two hours

and 10 minutes

and nothing lands when where you think

it would. It it's it doesn't have that

that sense of here's the problem. Now

I'm in the complications and then I feel

the solution coming. In a movie like

Finding People, you don't even know what

the problem is really. It's about two

people becoming friends and about a man

struggling with his mortality. And in

the face of his mortality, he wonders if

he made mistakes about how to live his

life. But he's so immature that he keeps

making more and more terrible mistakes.

So the the structural leap that we take

is

right when you think the movie might end

and right where it might be the amount

of time in a movie when a movie would

end. He gets better and then suddenly he

decides to pursue his his ex-girlfriend

that he cheated on and lost and now

suddenly the movie is a completely

different movie. It's this nightmare for

Seth Rogan's character as this hero of

his goes on this really terrible pursuit

of a woman with a husband and two

children. And he he loses his uh

his naive mind

by watching how the world really works.

There's damaged people and they hurt

other people and your heroes aren't what

you think they'll be. And a lot of times

they disappoint you and it's a loss of

innocence

and everything goes wrong and it just

ends badly. Husband comes, beats the

[ __ ] out of him and they just leave.

That's that's the second half of the

movie. And then it becomes about whether

or not Seth and Adam will become friends

again. So, it's a very strange structure

because you're not really rooting for

him to get the woman

and you're happy he's healthy and you're

not really sure what you want. You're

just kind of bummed that he's not as

cool as you thought he was. And then the

story reveals uh all of who he is. And

hopefully if it if it works for you, uh,

and it certainly doesn't work for

everybody, uh, you get to know this

person completely, his flaws and the the

great parts of him, and you see him as a

human

a human being who's struggling, but

hopefully slightly pointed towards the

light in some Bye.

For some of my movies, the openings are

completely stolen from the opening of

Stripes.

I remember watching that and thinking,

"This is the perfect opening because

what is it?" It's Bill Murray driving

cab intercut with Harold Ramos teaching

English to people who don't speak

English and they cut back and forth and

we see how they handle it. Ultimately,

Bill Murray gets in a fight with the

woman in his cab. He stops on a bridge,

gets out of the car and tosses the keys

into the Hudson River.

And Harold Ramos winds up teaching all

of the uh foreign students curse words

and is not taking his job very

seriously. Then they meet and they talk

about how terrible their lives are

going. Then they see a commercial, you

know, for the army and that's the setup.

Uh, and so with a movie like the

40-year-old version, I sometimes I just

try to start as simply as possible. It

starts and you see where he lives. You

see a shot of this little apartment

complex. You go inside, he's asleep.

He's hugging a large pillow, but there's

something about the way he's doing it

which makes you instantly realize it's

like it's a woman. This is all he has.

He's like it's between his legs and and

there's all this science fiction

uh paraphernalia in his bedroom, toys

everywhere. So, he's living like a

child. Then we see his morning. And what

is his morning? It's him exercising. We

thought, well, a virgin would have a lot

of energy. He's not having sex, so he

just exercises like crazy to deal with

his frustration. Then we see him alone

in the tub and it's suddenly very quiet

and very sad that he's just alone just

with his nose sticking out of the tub.

Then we see him making breakfast and

he's amazing at it. It looks like a

restaurant made it and he serves it to

himself almost like a waiter and we

thought, yeah, because he's alone. He's

become a good chef. He has tons of time

on his hands because he's a virgin.

Then he he says goodbye to his neighbors

who are an elderly couple who live above

him. And you realize, oh, he's sweet and

lonely and he hangs out with them and

he's going to watch Survivor with them.

And that paints a whole picture of the

guy who doesn't go to a club. He goes

and hangs out with the elderly people

above him. Then when he walks away, they

say, "That kid needs to get laid." and

and we realize that the whole world

knows that something needs to change for

this guy. So, you love him. You already

love him three minutes in because he's a

nice guy. He's trying to treat himself

well. He's scared. He's kind to other

people. Then he walks into work. Uh he

takes his tire with him so the bike

doesn't get stolen. Uh, and when he

walks in

he instantly becomes very shy and a

woman asks him about some product at

this stereo store and he looks

terrified.

And then Romney Malco leaps in and you

could tell, oh, this is how other people

deal with this. They're all over it. And

then he goes into the stock room in the

back of the room with Seth and shuts the

door. And now we know he's a guy that

doesn't want to be on the floor. He's

hiding in this very sad, sterile room

with this freaky guy played by by Seth.

So, you know, within seven minutes, we

know almost everything we need to know

about him. Then he's invited to go to

this poker game because they want to

steal his money. They're not inviting

him because he's a friend. He's the

weird guy at the store. And then in the

poker game,

they're sharing sex stories and his are

so clearly made up that they realize

he's a virgin and decide that they need

to help him change that. So in a lot of

my movies, I I I do openings that take

their time

telling you everything you need to know

about these people and then a problem

lands. So his problem is they know

they're going to try to change it. Um

and in you know train wreck

it's you know it's a similar thing.

She's going about her life. We we start

we see her sleeping with a stranger. We

see her at work uh with her her job at

this snarky magazine, this gossipy

place. and she's assigned a story where

she's going to interview this doctor.

And as soon as she meets the doctor, we

know the story, which is this mess of a

person

is going to fall in love with this guy

and it's going to force her to decide

whether or not she wants to grow up.

The example I always give is the

40-year-old

virgin's ending.

How are you going to end a movie about a

virgin? Well, you could have him have

sex. Okay, that seems like the right

ending. Or he doesn't have sex, right?

So, that's your other option. Or he dies

before getting the chance to have sex.

Or he has sex and is happy after. or he

has sex and dies very close after he had

sex. Like if you wrote down every

ending, there's only like eight that you

could think of. Some seem silly, some,

you know, feel like whatever my style

is. Or you have him tell her that that

he's a virgin. She's like, I don't mind.

And he's immediately hit by a bus and

it's like a Cohen brothers ending, like

a serious man. And the tornado is

coming. Uh so you when you know these

rules and you know there's only so many

options, it's a little bit less daunting

uh when you're trying to work all this

out because the choice you make is the

one that's closest to your heart. It's

the thing that you care about that

you're you're trying to say. You might

see a Cohen brothers movie and at the

end the point is life is dark. The end.

Or you might want to see a movie or make

a movie where you're saying

good things happen to people and people

grow up and it's hard and this is how it

happens sometimes. And it's all very

valid. It really is about the point of

view of the director or the writer, how

they see the world. You may see the

world as a place with a a cut eyeball or

a just a happy kiss and a roll in the

ocean.

I think that you can take a left turn

for comedy uh in any movie, but the key

is it works much better if it's serving

something. If it's not serving anything,

usually you can get away with something

like that in a movie. But when it is

serving the overall story or character,

it it's funnier. For instance, in Funny

People, there's a scene where George

Simmons goes to the doctor and and the

doctor is basically saying that it it

doesn't look like he's getting better

and and George Simmons is so upset that

he just starts insulting the doctor like

he's a heckler at a comedy club. That's

how he deals with his his sadness is

through anger. It's like, you know, hurt

turns into rage. And so, for no reason

other than he's upset. He he starts uh

telling him how he looks like the

terrorist and Die Hard and did he

swallow Bejornborg and I saw you in the

Matrix and Seth's character starts doing

the same thing.

And it's a it becomes a really funny

scene that's actually a very sad scene

about finding out that you're not

getting better. And in one sense it

feels like

just a diversion of just a big comedic

diversion but then when you think about

it it's not at all. It's actually there

to say this is how a comedian deals with

his pain which is to be funny and

sometimes to be funny in a uh lacerating

way.

You could give good news and I'd still

be like what happened? Am I I'm still

dying.

I'm just trying to help you. I know you

sound like a regular Joe where you come

from, but here I keep thinking you're

going to be torturing James Bond later.

I'm sure your sense of humor will serve

you well in this situation.

There he goes again. All so terrifying

because it came out of your mouth.

You are a very funny man.

Are you mad that you died at the end of

Die Hard? Sometimes you just know you

need a laugh somewhere and you know the

question always becomes

does a moment serve any purpose for your

story? Now in a comedy anything that's

funny I guess in some way is serving

your comedy but if if you get far a

field you may be you know losing the

thread of the story.

Well, sometimes in addition to cracking

story problems or character

arcs, you are thinking just about where

are the biggest laughs in this? Where

are the set pieces? Now, a set piece is

usually an extended sequence with some

energy

that contains a lot of laughs, the big

laughs of the movie. So you might say,

you know, a set piece would be Seth

Rogan and Paul Rudd going to Cirus Sole

on mushrooms

or it might be Kristen Wig in the car

trying to get the attention of Chris

Odow. So she's littering and then

suddenly she doesn't have her top on and

she's doing all these crazy things and

that's a set piece.

What are you doing? I'm speeding. You

better pull me over.

Really?

Here comes a litter bug.

Just see what Marmuk's doing.

Just texting, talking on the phone while

I'm driving. Not even using my hands.

Oh, hi.

Beerum.

So, a lot of times when you're doing a

certain type of comedy, you want one

every 10 minutes you want to have a big

funny thing happen and hopefully the one

of the best ones near the end of the

movie. And sometimes you're aware that

the ones you have aren't that good. And

you're just looking at the script and

you're sitting with writers and the

writers of the script and the director

and you're saying, "Well, that's kind of

funny, but how do we how do we beat it?

Is there a better way to do this?" or in

this section here, they're just talking

for like 30 minutes. Nothing great

happens. And sometimes it's it's as

simple as that. What great thing could

happen that would tear down the house. I

know at this moment that the audience

will wish something amazing and

hysterical is happening and you have a

feel like a piece of music. It's

supposed to happen here and we don't

have it. And that's what uh a round

table can be helpful with. If you're

doing a movie that's supposed to be

riotously funny, it it it does feel like

five or six times in a 90 minute or in

my case 3 hours and 10 minute movie.

But, you know, it does feel like every

10 or 15 minutes you want something

really special and hysterical to happen.

So, if you watch a movie like something

about Mary and you point out where's the

killers, there is probably a certain

pace uh for when those moments happen.

The one lesson I've noticed time and

again is the worst thing that can happen

is if none of them are in your last 10

minutes. So a movie like Train Wreck

works for a lot of different reasons,

but one of the reasons why it works is

there's a big sequence at the end where

she's cheerleading and she's doing it to

show him that she's not snarky anymore

and that she loves him and she is sorry

for everything that's happened and that

she's open to changing.

But the dance itself is very very funny

because she's clearly not a a good

cheerleader. And so it has an emotional

resonance, but it's also a riotously

funny sequence. And that's what you're

trying to do is uh continue to work

organically with the story but have a

solution that is as funny as the best

moments in the Goofy.

So usually for me I have a

a thematic idea, I have a an inspiration

uh and then I build everything around

that. So when I was uh conceiving funny

people,

I had an idea about someone who becomes

sick

and when they think they are getting

better

uh they return to their regular level of

neurosis.

So that inspiration came because my mom

was sick. And I noticed that whenever

she thought that she was going to uh get

completely better, she would become

super neurotic. And when she thought

that she was not going to survive, she

seemed much more relaxed. And all the

stuff that bothered her daytoday that

she would obsess over would go away. And

she would be like, "What does it

matter?" And the second a doctor said,

"You're going to be okay. This might

work." She'd be like, "What do I do

about this? What do I do about that?

What about this money issue? What about

this business issue?" And so that was

one idea that was in my head.

Separately, I had another idea about

that period when you first start trying

to be a standup comedian and you are

mentored or you become friends with

older, more established comedians. You

know what that feels like? the

interesting relationship between younger

and older comedians. And I had that

relationship with a lot of different

comedians from Roseanne to Jim Carrey to

Gary Chandling uh to Dennis Miller.

And they were all super nice to me and

really helped me out early in my career.

And I thought there was a way to talk

about that relationship with someone who

maybe was a little more like Rodney

Dangerfield, who I didn't know, but was

a much more unhappy

comedian. And that through it you could

explore

why people want to be in comedy. And

also

why this need to be successful and

famous and rich tends to isolate people

and make them unhappy.

And how

a young comedian would watch an older

comedian's

experiences and and try to learn from

them.

So, one day in the shower, I realized,

oh, you could combine those two ideas

and have it be the comedian who has the

neardeath

uh disease experience

and do the mentoring or friendship with

an older comedian movie.

Why are you telling me this, George?

Cuz I want you to possibly do me a

favor.

Okay. Yeah. What? Kill me.

What? Nobody knows we know each other.

You're a stranger. You can get away with

this. I got a gun in the other room.

It's untraceable. I'll give you $50,000.

Don't make me suffer. Please kill me,

Ira. I'm begging you.

Can you at least give me like a night to

think about it?

Ha. Think about it. You would do it.

Oh, I hate you, man. Oh, no. Ira, I

misread you. You're sick. You're a

murderer.

Oh, you're rude to do it.

Man, what would you have done for

$100,000? Chop my head off.

So, that's how I look at how you build

something, which is you have a thought

and usually in it there's something you

want to say and what you want to say

might be

about

values. you know, someone who valued

success and money uh before anything

else but wound up isolated and alone

uh and it didn't work out. Um and to

show uh that person

learn a teeny bit of a lesson. So

through that entire movie

he Adam Sandler's character George

Simmons is struggling

to find a healthy approach to his life

in a lot of ways. So that's the initial

idea and that was one of the first

ideas. It would be a movie where at the

very end all he does is write one joke

for someone else and that's the

beginning of maybe he'll start to live

his life differently and maybe Seth

Rogan's character will learn something

from this person's mistakes.

So for me I'll have that inspiration and

then I'm everything is building to that

uh I'm coming up with scene ideas uh as

my first step. So what I try to do is

for it could be for three months, it

could be for a year. All I'm doing is

writing down scene ideas.

And I don't know how they necessarily

connect. I'm just being open to visions.

And so I might think, oh, there might be

a scene

where George Simmons

apologizes to Leslie Man's character for

cheating on her a lot when they were

younger. And I'll just write that on a

piece of paper on a file. Uh, and

another day I might say a scene where

they

hit on two women. Adam sleeps with the

woman that he hit on. Seth bombs with

his. And then Adam comes in and then

takes that woman into his bedroom and

then sleeps with her also.

And that'll be up on a card. And at some

point I'll have, you know, 100 cards or

200 cards and then I start looking at it

and looking for the story. So, I have

like a general sense, but then I'm just

writing on cards

what happens in the middle.

One of the ways that I outline movies is

I will uh keep a little note uh file in

my phone

and I will just write brief ideas to

myself as I start thinking of of a

movie. And with Knocked Up, I I was on

vacation and I started making notes on

what it is. And I just wanted to read a

little bit of you. This is from some of

the first emails

so you could see how it dribbles out. So

I don't have all of it. I'm just

beginning to get flashes of what it can

be. So it says, "A couple gets pregnant

on the first date. Older sister of the

woman has kids and represents its

difficulties and complications. Going

through this helps her adjust her life

in a positive way. She doesn't like

Seth. Maybe Seth admits she is right at

some point.

Uh, Seth's parents are willing to let

them live with them, but that is the

last thing the girl wants to do. So, we

didn't have Seth's parents. We could

show them meet, the first encounter, how

it leads to sex. Not using birth control

can be a major point of contention for

the whole film. Why didn't they use it?

The idea of being forced into a

relationship for life is the main

conflict. A relationship in reverse, a

baby then get to know one another. So,

that's the whole idea. Um, a friend can

say, "No matter what, you guys are stuck

dealing with each other till you die."

Also, the sister can fill her younger

sister with all the questions that the

sister can't believe she doesn't know

the answers to yet, which leads to the

couple fighting, the rush to get to know

each other quickly. For the girl, there

can be a sense that this is the end of

her dreams

vocationally. Her ability to finish

school, etc. is impossible unless they

become a team. There could be an

exploration of adoption, maybe even

private adoption. Seth could have a

friend who was adopted and is crazy and

is violently against it. A friend of

hers can be very pro-abortion. That is

explored. Documentaries watch. Should

they find out if it is a boy or a girl

is a big debate and fight. Now, a lot of

that isn't in the movie, but this is me

just vomiting possibilities.

religion. Maybe she keeps thinking he'll

run till finally she forces him to run.

The idea of the film is that their idea

for their lives is altered completely.

Freedom is gone. Tracks are laid down

permanently and it causes breakdowns.

What about my year living in Europe? Now

that became a scene where Paul Redudd

says what if I want to go to India and

Lazy Man says then go to India. Uh, so

the end is realizing this is a bizarre

gift and that the woman is as well. So

Seth realizes that she is a gift. He's

lucky to have met her, but she should

not be the kind of person he thought he

would wind up with. She could work with

her sister, running a shop or some type.

Uh, something he knows nothing about and

cares nothing about. He can't even fake

it. Like clothes. We've seen them

attempt interest in each other's work.

They have to meet friends, which

couldn't be more awkward. That is uh a

scene that we did do. She goes over the

house and meets Jonah and Jay and and

Martin and Charlene uh and Jason. They

could have huge fights about her

drinking. He thinks she is pushing it.

She says you're allowed to drink a glass

of wine. She is a little more reckless

than he is comfortable with. And then he

can't get it up because he doesn't want

to hurt the baby. So that is a scene

that is in the movie. Uh he could design

menus for DVDs or something with

computers. Did not do that.

need a nonhacky work environment. He

could spend a lot of time on the

computer. Well, that turned into a porn

website, but it is on a computer. So,

that idea did bubble up. What if at some

point Leslie gets pregnant or thought

she was? That is a a scene that we did

where when when Katherine

uh takes a pregnancy test to be sure.

Leslie does one and confuses the sticks

and for a moment thinks she's pregnant.

Leslie says, "Spend a day with me and

see what it's like. Then it is hellish

in every way." So basically that idea

was hang out with me while I raise my

kids. And and Katherine gets freaked out

by that. That we did not do. Seth spends

time with Red in some way. They lie

about what they're going to do, then get

drunk in a bar. Now, we did do a

variation of that, which was Leslie

finds out that Paul sneaks out at night

and goes to a fantasy baseball meeting

and that he has a secret life where he

sneaks out and goes to movies and goes

to fantasy baseball because he feels so

much pressure uh in his family life and

being a dad. And they have a huge fight

about it. But it all started with this

line. They lie about what they are going

to do, then get drunk in a bar. So on

another email, I wrote, "Leslie goes off

on a bouncer at a club. The guy breaks

and apologizes. I'm sorry. It is because

you're old. They don't want old people.

Cuz then we become an old club. I'm also

not allowed to let in more than 5%

blacks and Asians and 1% Middle Eastern.

It is [ __ ] I have been so guilty

about it, but I need the job." then cut

to Leslie crying in a corner and that

became the the scene with Craig Robinson

at the nightclub. And when we shot that,

we were shooting a lot of alts for Craig

and letting Craig improvise. And so that

became one of the the the scenes that

people really remember from from the

movie. What's interesting about that

scene is we did so much improvising that

at one point Leslie ran out of things to

say and just started screaming doorman,

doorman, doorman. And that became the

line that people really liked and it

really was a result of running out of

things to say. So she just started

screaming the word doorman over and over

again. So you never know where you'll

get an inspired moment.

You may have power now, but you're not

God. You're a doorman. Okay? You're a

doorman. Door man. Door man. Door man.

Door man. So [ __ ] you.

When I'm writing, I will start, you

know, with the cards with a zillion

scenes and then at some point I I spread

all the cards out on a table and I just

say, "All right, if I had to outline it

today, what would it be based on

everything I have?

And I do that because you can never get

the perfect outline. So you have to give

yourself permission to just create a

crappy one. So I'll just I'll just, you

know, create the outline and then for a

while I'll just keep revising the

outline and trying to figure out what's

functioning and not functioning about

it. A lot of it is about how problems

get more complicated

and how they're resolved or not

resolved. So there's usually some sort

of a rhythm in a movie. uh where things

are going well, then things are going

badly, and then things seem like they're

going well, and then it goes terrible,

and then if you don't fix it, the world

will end. Like, and there's a certain

music to

uh dealing with the problems uh of life.

Most of my movies are just about normal

life problems. And so once I have an

outline that I think is okay, every day

I I I just draw a line to where I want

to get to in that day of writing. So I

might go today I'm going to write these

four scenes and then the next day I'm

like I'm going to write these four and

if I don't like the next I'm going to

jump to these scenes and basically I'm

just exing off scenes

till I'm done. And you know, basically I

always think

you can always write five pages a day

and that's not a a brutal pace. If you

you could do two and a half pages before

lunch and two and a half pages after

lunch and so that would be 25 pages a

week. Let's say you don't pull that off

and you could do 20 pages a week. So in

five or six weeks you can get a draft of

a movie. And so if you you know set

reasonable goals

from an outline, a good movie can be

written in six weeks and then it can be

you know rewritten you know every two or

three weeks after that. You have to find

ways to not be intimidated by the

process because the idea of filling the

blanks pages

is scary and you can think I suck. I

shouldn't do this. Why am I bothering?

So, it's always good to have like many

goals along the way so you don't feel

like you have to do all of it. And once

I have a first draft, then I can be

brutal on it and try to figure out what

the hell happened. And then I try to

dissect how the story is working, create

an outline for the fix, and then I'll

say, I'm going to rewrite 10 pages a day

for 12 days. And that's the second

draft.

My process uh is is very simple and I

always encourage people to use this

process which is when I'm writing a

script I believe in the vomit pass. I

think that you need to get it down and

then fix it up. I think I read that in

an Ann Lamont book,

but uh

Ann Lamont, I don't know. I'm following

all her advice. I should know how her

name is pronounced. She had a book

called Bird by Bird, which uh talked a

lot about how you need to just get

something down and then fix it up. And

you can't judge yourself in the process

of just spewing it out. And that if you

write quickly and don't censor yourself

and don't judge yourself, things will

come from your unconscious

that won't come if you're too anal. And

I've read a lot about writing. And I

feel like the most important lesson I've

taken from all of my reading is one half

of your brain is creative and the other

half is a critic and an editor. and you

want to do those uh tasks on different

days if you can or different parts of

your day. If you're in spew mode, you

don't want to be questioning it after

every idea. You want to just get as many

ideas down as you can and then at

another time read it over and go, "Okay,

that one's good. This one's good. This

makes no sense. This one's good." If you

try to do both at the same time, you can

paralyze yourself. So

that's usually my approach. I'm

generally not a religious person and the

only time I do feel uh connected to

anything larger than myself is when

writing a joke or or a story and

sometimes just the dumbest joke. I I

remember uh sitting home one day and

thinking, "Oh, there should be an image

of of of the foot virgin uh peeing with

an erection.

And I was so excited. I'm like, I've

never seen that in a movie. Like

somebody like trying to push their penis

down in the morning to pee. And and I

just started laughing. I laughed

hysterically. I ran around my house like

in a frenzy of joy. But to me, that's a

religious moment. And sometimes you just

figure things out or you write a scene

really well and it is like when you hear

about a songwriter say, "Oh yeah, I

wrote I wrote that in 10 minutes or I

wrote that as fast as you could write it

down like it came from somewhere else."

And I remember hearing Tommy Chong talk

about that on the Howard Stern show. He

said, "It's like you have a pipe and you

could hook it into the creativity of the

universe." And some people understand

that there's a pipe out there and you

could hook your pipe to it and get all

of this creativity. And he said, "Hriris

could do it. I I could do it." And I do

understand what that is. If if you can

get into a certain kind of flow state,

you you can be very very creative. It

also has to do with not allowing your

judgmental voice to slow you down. Um,

you know, some people believe in writing

exercises where you sit for 20 minutes

and you try to never stop typing

because things will come out of you uh

as a result of not allowing yourself to

The

[Music]

I think that everybody writes

differently I was just talking to

somebody and they said when John Hughes

had an idea his approach was to force

himself to write the entire screenplay

immediately sometimes in a weekend maybe

sometimes in two weeks so some of those

movies that we all

love he wrote really fast because he

felt like if I have a a notion if I

force myself to get it all out of me

when I'm done I'll know if there's

something there and if it's worth

pursuing so he would try to write the

full script

as as his opening volley of his process

I think you can get in that flow alone

you can get in it with other people I I

like rooms and rooms TV shows and there

are definitely moments where everyone

just starts laughing and the room takes

off and cracks a problem and people

start pitching jokes and it feels you

know like cream playing alive and

suddenly it's

happening it also can happen alone the

problem sometimes is you start typing

and you feel it coming and there's a

part of you that just wants to go watch

TV because it's almost scary and you're

afraid it'll stop uh and and it and you

really have to learn how you push

through I feel like people like Stephen

King who who write a lot they really

understand how to access that place

where their mind is creating stories and

they um don't ruin it somehow you know

one of my heroes is David milch who who

uh co-created NYPD Blue and created

Deadwood and he's of the belief that you

should try to write at the same time

every

day and that when you're not writing you

should not think about writing that if

you right at the same time every

day when you hit the chair your mind

knows oh this is the moment when we do

this and he said there's no reason to

think about writing when you're not

writing because it's like thinking about

going to the gym if you're not at the

gym you're not doing it so why why talk

talk about

it and uh although that is not how I

work because I never can get the same

hours going I do think it's it's

probably uh probably

[Music]

helpful it's

worth thinking about how you can uh

create the environment for those moments

to happen and then there are other times

where you realize it's not happening

today and you just got to shut it down a

lot of writing is about tooling around

and cleaning up your room and taking a

walk and that's that's why I think we

tend to come up with a lot of our best

ideas in the shower or in in spaces

where we're doing something else uh

because when our mind is

clear sometimes those ideas just

suddenly bubble up because we're not uh

on Twitter reading about Donald Trump

but I really think that your mind is UNC

iously outlining for you and there is an

aspect to writing which

is when you're asleep it's working out

problems so in the same way that you go

to sleep and you dream and some part of

your brain is making up a story that is

happening with your movie and TV story

idea so if you trust that your brain is

working on

it then when you finally sit down at a

computer suddenly there's more ideas

there and that is something that I

learned in the middle of my career to

trust not working and that when you're

not working at all your brain is still

working and it will offer you up all

sorts of weird Notions when you least

expected sometimes in the shower

sometimes just meditating or sitting

around and and suddenly it all starts

making sense in a way that feels almost

mystical um but you just have to be open

to it and you have to have enough time

and Trust

to allow that to happen because you know

you you care about certain things and

you don't even realize you care about

them and sometimes when you're done with

the script you go oh that's what I was

trying to

[Music]

say the key to my Approach is as early

as I can I try to read it out loud

because that always

reveals a lot of the problems and what

going well and then once it exists then

you start liking it like when you have a

draft you're like oh I kind of get this

and then you just keep reading it you

know I know some people they'll record

the entire script I think Peter Weir did

this he would record the entire script

and then just listen to it in his car

all the time and he he could hear what

was wrong with the scenes and the

dialogue just from listening to it over

and over again you just

start watching it in your mind and I

will get uh actors and actresses to read

it out loud sometimes we know we're

going to make the movie sometimes we

don't we read super bad years before we

made super bad we had Seth and Jason

seagull read the leads I Mar star made

might have been mcklin at that point

when we were doing Undeclared we read uh

Super Rad out loud so then you get all

that information and I try to do

multiple table reads

[Music]

[Applause]

I've always read a ton of self-help

books both for myself and to understand

characters and self-help books are great

because they always have examples of

people's problems so in any book

regardless what the theory is they like

Mary wasn't happy in her life her

husband didn't treat her CRA she didn't

know how to stand up and and so you're

hearing the advice but you're also

hearing all the basic ways people have

conflicts with each other and so for

years I I used to read everything and I

realize oh there's there's not that many

personality types there are people that

are insecure and that makes them very

loud and arrogance to cover how insecure

they are and there people are insecure

and they get super quiet

and they don't talk to anybody and uh

you know the way people you know try to

control other people or try to keep

their lives safe you know that's what is

the four-year-old virgin but trying to

stay safe like I don't want to risk pain

or in funny people Adam Sandler's

character doesn't want to you know risk

caring about something other than his

ego he doesn't he's scared to be

selfless he doesn't know if he's going

to get anything out of it he does

doesn't want to get hurt and uh you

could say that about any of the

characters that have been in any of the

projects that I've I've worked on

there's always a very specific

psychological

underpinning when we uh worked on Trainwreck

the beginning of the idea was just

a conversation that Amy Schumer and I

had about relationships and I just said

why do you think you're not in a great

relationship right now and we talked on

the phone you know for an hour and she

said this is what I think I do in a

relationship here's here's how I might

sabotage it if it's going well and that

conversation led to her screenplay for

Trainwreck because the basic idea

became you know what would she do if she

met the perfect guy and she said I

probably would uh screw it up on purpose

in some way and and that's the structure

of the movie She screws it up and then

she has to win him back what are we

doing what do you want why are you with

me I love you why do you keep saying

that because I mean it I love you I'm

crazy about you what do you what do you

want me to say we're just having a fight

you insulted me and that's and I just

we'll talk about it and we'll work

through it what's wrong with you that

you want to be with me I I'm a I'm a

drinker I don't care I've been with a

lot of guys I don't care how many I

don't

know how many girls have you slept with

I've slept with three women me too I

have slept with three women women

too how many guys what like this year

this year [ __ ] this I'm not talking

about come on don't say [ __ ] this don't

follow me and that's usually how I I

start with people is we we try to talk

about the the

psychology of why people make certain

choices so if C Nani is writing about

how he handled the situation where his

parents wanted him to have a an arranged

marriage uh I would say well how did you

how did you feel about that what what

did you do and why did you do it and and

he said I I wasn't that committed in

relationships because I didn't want to

offend my family so I was always a

little one foot in one foot out with all

of the the women that I was with with

because I was very afraid of the final

confrontation with my parents where I

would say I don't want want to have an

arranged marriage and that's what a lot

of the big sick became about is uh you

know in the the

screenplay they uh they break up over it

in real life they didn't break up but we

wanted to heighten you know the stakes

and we wanted to make it worse when he

had to hang out with her parents in the

hospital um you know what would make it

even more uncomfortable oh he was the

person that broke her heart and now he's

hanging out with the parents who are

kind of mad at him about it but it's

always from a psychological place that

we're creating these

stories at the lar sander show they were

a lot of complicated

characters

and Gary never talked about whether or

not they were good people or bad people

he talked about it in terms of their

egos and their their needs so a

character like Hank

Kingsley on one level was a

sweetheart but also a wounded person who

was seeking

respect and wanted to be as big a star

as

Larry

and we loved his humanness but there was

no determination

about whether he was good guy or bad guy

he he was

everything uh and there's an amazing

episode that Peter Tolen wrote and what

it was about

was the night where Larry gets sick and

there's no one to guest host the show so

they let Hank guess host the show and

for whatever reason he he does an

amazing job he's fantastic at it and

afterwards he gets so

cocky that very quickly he he becomes an

egomaniac and he's really mean to

everybody around him and he starts

hoping that Larry won't get better so he

can do it

again and then he does it again and he's

terrible the second night he he he has

the full circle uh experience and he

gets to see how awful that he becomes

when faced with success uh how quickly

he he becomes awful when this this uh

secret dream comes true and it's really

an incredible episode it might be the

best episode of this series but you

didn't watch it and think you know I

love Hank you you watch it being

fascinated by The Human Condition and

how someone can be both wonderful and

funny and sweet and also have another

side which Can't Get Enough can't be

successful enough has a weird instinct

to not be gracious in success and to be

terrible to the staff and at the end of

it you still love Hank but not because

he behaves well but just because he is

human and we all have those good traits

and those bad traits in us somewhere

we're all trying to manage that we all

hope that if if we get a shot and we

succeed that we don't become a terrible

[Music]

jerk so how could this not have happened

it just never happened when I was young

uh I tried and it didn't happen and uh

then I got older and I got more and more

nervous because it hadn't happened yet

and I got kind of weirded out about it

then it really did happened and then I

don't know I just kind of stopped trying

the movie was pitched to me by Steve

Carell he said I've always wanted to

play a 40-Year-Old Virgin I used to do a

sketch at Second City that I never quite

figured

out where it's a guy at a poker game and

everyone's telling sex

stories and there's clearly one guy who

hasn't had sex and his stories don't

make any sense so people would tell

their story and then he would say yeah

like when you touch a woman's breast and

it feels like a bag of sand or like when

you put your hand down a woman's pants

and there's all that baby

powder uh and instantly I knew exactly

what he was talking about I I I related

to the idea of being ashamed that you

didn't know what you were doing and

quickly Steve and I realized that if we

if we wrote this very realistically

uh and very honestly from an emotional

place that you would really care about

this person so instead of making him a

you know an object of

ridicule we tried to really come up

with uh a real person there was a guy at

a comedy club that I would see all the

time and one day I was watching a show

like myy

Povich and I'm like wonder what he's on

the show for and then a Chiron came up

and it said you

45y old virgin or whatever age he was

and I remember that that guy was kind of

pissy like he wasn't a a shy guy he was

kind of an angry guy he had a chip on

his shoulder and so we thought oh it's

funny that he is both someone who hides

and is sweet but gets mad sometimes and

has an angry

side and that instantly made him more of

a of a real person that people will say

oh i' I've met people like that so a lot

of the construction of of the 4year old

virgin was about coming up with a a

three-dimensional

[Music]

character Gary always talked about

being

authentic uh about getting to the core

of characters to go as deep as you can

go to be as complex as you can be so

when we were working on the

four-year-old virgin Gary read it and

gave notes he came up with some funny

bits for it one of the big issues was

does he masturbate so we sat around and

we thought how sexual is he does he

masturbate do we have to deal with that

and we couldn't think of how to do it

without it being gross and then Gary

said what if you just do a sequence

where he prepares to masturbate and he

puts out his lotions and he brushes his

hair and he puts on his favorite

bathrobe and and and we we use that and

it was really really funny but the

main piece of uh criticism and advice he

had uh when we were working on the

script was he said you need to show that

his relationship is about love so it's

different than all of his friends

relationships they're all chasing sex

for the most part and because he's in

love

when he finally has sex the sex will be

better than the sex that all of his

friends from the store has so you need

to

show that the sex is amazing because

he's in

love and I kept saying well I don't know

how to do that I can't show Steve having

sex like how would I do that how would I

how would I show that sex is good and

he'd say I don't know you got to do it

you got to figure that out and Gary kept

calling

me and pushing me on this and he would

leave me messages on my answering

machine have you figured it out yet have

you figured out how to show that their

sex is better than everyone else's sex

because they're in

love and I was getting frustrated

because I knew he was right but I didn't

know if we would ever crack it and then

one day Steve was in my office and I

said I don't know what to do about

Gary's note

and Steve goes maybe I just sing a song

after and I went oh yeah like let the

sunshine in from

hair and then that was it then we

created this sequence and we didn't know

if it would work we just thought if this

isn't funny we'll just snip it off the

end and we'll we'll end with their

wedding or their sex and the place would

just

explode and that was all because of Gary

so when Gary talked about getting to the

truth of a character getting to the core

of a character and revealing that uh

that changed everything for me

[Music]

when we're creating characters a lot of

it is just about taking the time to

flesh out who they are so when uh Pete

Holmes created

crashing his wife cheats on him with

another teacher at school the art

teacher uh and the character Leif was

meant to be a bit of a new

AG kind of

guy but it wasn't that fleshed out we we

weren't sure exactly what to do with it

but we did like the idea that he would

be amazing at sex because he's super

tantric and he also wouldn't get that

mad when Pete yells at him for sleeping

with his wife but he would just be all

about love in a way that was somewhat

absurd but then we had to keep the

character alive in other episodes and we

sat down and said but who is this guy

like it's a funny guy in the pilot for a

scene but who is he and we knew he was

an art

teacher and as we tried to create Other

Stories We said well is he married like

what's his situation

ation and who's he married to and and

everyone kicked it around and and

decided that he's married to a wealthy

person and slowly we came up with that

his wife's family has some really

successful plumbing company and maybe

they feel almost like the mafia that

they're a little scary and who knows

what's going on and he's a little bit of

a kept man probably because he's great

at sex and has this hard uh Italian

wife and and then you know we we could

deal with well what are his issues and

is he in love with with Pete's wife with

Jess how does he feel about it what is

he lonely is he happy in his career

where does he live how much money does

he have what does he want and that's

what you usually get down to you know

what does somebody want how smart are

they are they good or bad at sex how do

they relate to women you write people's

backgrounds and the more details you

have the more stories for a TV show that

you can come up with or the funnier and

the more fleshed out uh you can be when

uh that's a character in your film it

really is about taking the time and most

people don't take the time and you could

watch a movie or a TV show and always

notice oh they didn't really think

through that character he doesn't have

much going on how do we even know that

this vagrant doesn't have AIDS he looks

like he has AIDS he doesn't have AIDS

brother looks are deceiving I do not

have AIDS I can assure you of that I was

I was tested right before my wedding

he's married I know it's bad you're

married I'm married man and that's

something that I have to deal with good

I'm sorry it's hard on you sorry to [ __ ]

up your day who is this guy how did you

even meet this guy we worked together

he's the art teacher you've met him

before he's not even a comedian not

everything is about being funny he's a

really talented artist oh I'm sure he's

great they give all the master artists

third grade what's your [ __ ] medium

hand turkeys paste noodles just give us

a second go in the sewing room it's

around the corner I know where it is or

you can do

it way too much just so deeply so when a

character pops on screen and isn't even

there for that long they they pop

through because

everyone knows who they are and suddenly

the jokes get better and richer and even

if the audience doesn't know all the

information you know suddenly they just

come alive we had that with Megan Fox in

This Is

40 we wanted to have Leslie's character

have a

store and have a beautiful woman working

at the at the store and slowly we

decided that she was secretly a

prostitute but she just does it here and

there for extra money and as we you know

thought that through we would think

about it in the scenes before the

audience knew that was true because it

would affect her attitude it it would

affect her lack of concern and her you

know she's not desperate for money she's

not worried about work because she knows

every once in a while she might make

five 10 grand if she goes and have sex

with a professional

golfer um and as a result all of it

became funnier so I guess the lesson

here is you shouldn't be lazy about

thinking through Who characters are uh

because the more time you put into it

the the better uh they will be as a

character and the better the scenes will

[Music]

be a lot of times in movies characters

become little comedy teams oh this

person's passive and this person's

aggressive and then when they get

together they talk and suddenly the

passive person blows up after being

quiet the whole time and you know you

you can come up with psychological

dynamics that are also

comedy Dynamics the more you flesh out

these characters the more uh able you

are to just let them go at each other so

if Pete is fleshed out and Leif is

fleshed out and Jess is fleshed out and

the three of them have this awful moment

if you really thought them through in

addition to your script uh you can do

some improves you could see what these

actors and actresses will make out of

this moment all the while

watching to make sure that it's all

organic that it that it is uh true to

their characters and every once in a

while they have a a moment and you just

think that's the joke that's the thing

that's funny about this is this little

idea

and with Leif the idea was that even

though he's

caught he's also reaching

out and trying to make Pete understand

why it's okay and why it's actually not

even bad because we're all supposed to

love each other and that's how the

universe is supposed to work and it's

designed very specifically because Pete

is religious but he believes in Jesus

and all of that and Leif believes in

something else that we are all one and

we are all Just

Energy and we need to drop our

identities and just connect and so we we

we knew that every time they talk they

will Clash because at their at their

Center they are very different and they

see the world differently that

everything Le thinks seems ridiculous to

Pete and would enrage him and that's why

it's funny and that allows you to let

them play in addition to having the

script if if you have great you know

actors and actresses uh working and if

they understand what you've built then

something else will

happen we certainly think

about the best way to have a character

be introduced where they're very strong

right off the bat you don't want to meet

a new character in a comedy

and it's just fering around usually you

want a strong joke you know from the

get-go even

for characters who aren't the

lead uh for instance if you know Gerry Bednob

uh is one of

the salespeople at the stereo store

enters a scene in the first 10 minutes

of the foury old virgin you want the

first thing to come out of his mouth to

be really really funny and sometimes you

you want these moments to be you know

big moments and you're designing it so

the first time you see them they're

hilarious when you meet Colin Quinn in

train wreck it's in the opening scene

and it's a flashback and he's telling

his daughters who are very

small a

metaphor about how sometimes you get

bored of your toys you love your doll

yes you love the doll but what if I told

you that was the only doll you were

allowed to play with the rest of your

life how would you

feel sad you'd feel sad of course cuz

there's a lot of other dolls on your

shelves and if you play with the other

dolls you can't have that doll anymore

even though that doll doesn't really

want to play with you at this point

you're both living a lie there's other

dolls you like and they're making new

dolls every year you want a Stewart's

doll yeah yeah what about a slightly

overweight cocktail waitress doll what

about a doll who happens to be best

friends with your main doll yeah yeah it

could happen right yeah yeah what about

a doll you only play with one day and

never see again yeah what about a doll

where your friend's playing with a doll

and he needs you to you know kind of man

up with the other doll you're not even

want to play with that doll but you do

it cuz your friends playing with that

doll you don't want to sit there and

leave the other doll unattended yeah

yeah so that's why me and Mama are

getting divorced you know it's a big

funny scene it's also a sad scene and it

it sets up from the get-go why Amy's

character has uh

problems uh existing in a healthy

relationship so it's serving all of

those functions at the same time but

comedically it's hitting hard from the

first second of the movie and in a lot

of

our projects you know that is what we're

trying to do if someone arrives they

should be hysterical if if Jane Lynch

pops into a scene she should be super

funny if Leslie man is playing the drunk

woman in The 40-Year-Old Virgin you

wanted to be you know the best drunk

woman you've ever seen in anything and a

lot of it is just about having a high

bar you know how great can this moment

be how much can this character be

hilarious how awesome and flesh out can

this character be and not being

lazy in that work and I watch a lot of

movies and I just think nothing much

just happened right there that was that

was kind of boring and it seemed like

they were going for a joke but they

didn't really have a good one and I just

think who was on that set who said yeah

I think we got it that's that's a home

run and a lot of times it really is uh

laziness

[Music]

in every scene the characters want

something and sometimes they want

different things and that's really what

you're tuning into to write the dialog

so if Seth Rogen is sitting with

Katherine Heigl she might want one thing

she wants to know more about him before

she tells him she's

pregnant so she's feeling him out and

she knows she has this thing that she

has to tell him that she's really scared

to tell him and she's trying to

determine is this someone I can go

through this

with he doesn't know that he thinks he's

on a date and so

he's he's trying to win her over he

probably wants to sleep with her again

he can't believe this beautiful woman

will even sit down with him again and

that's the Clash that they are coming

from completely different places until

the

information comes out then suddenly they

might want completely different

things from that moment on um and that's

what you're trying to figure out with

every scene you know what what do these

people want if if Steve Carell

is confronted by Katherine Keener and

she says I don't want to wait for 20

dates I want to have sex right now what

he wants is not to have sex right now

because he's afraid and he's afraid if

it goes badly he's going to lose her and

she's horny she wants to have sex right

now and she's also offended that he

doesn't and she doesn't understand why

he doesn't and it hurts her feelings and

she's insulted so they both have

very strong attitudes that are are

clashing and there are you know secret

feelings that they're not sharing with

each other she might be yelling at him

when really what she's thinking is

you've just hurt my feelings and he

might be making up all these lies and

excuses but really what he's thinking is

I love you so much I feel like if we

have six right now I might lose you

forever and that's what makes it

interesting

[Music]

Gary used to always say you know people

very rarely tell you what they're

actually feeling that people don't tell

the truth that they wear masks they're

trying to present themselves in a

certain way to the world and most of the

time it's not the truth so someone might

be acting cocky to cover for the fact

that they're terrified or they're

they're needy and that when they do tell

the truth it's usually a really big deal

if someone opens up to you and says I'm

scared to

death that this project is terrible and

I'm bad at my job it's a big deal but

usually they're pretending they're great

at their job in the in the poker scene

in the four-year-old virgin all he wants

is for them to think he's cool all he

wants is for for them to think he's had

sex before so he's he's lying but really

he's lying because he he's

ashamed and he's insecure and then as

soon as he says he's a virgin and

they're excited to help him well maybe

they're excited to help him because it

makes them feel Superior to him maybe it

makes him feel like oh I must be a

better person than I thought I was

because at least I'm not a virgin like

this guy and maybe if I help him lose

his virginity I'll like myself

better and and that's the Dynamics that

you make for funny scenes you know I

don't kiss in tells [ __ ] it I raise you

nastiest [ __ ] you've ever done I'm

talking about nasty uh wow so many

stories are running through my head

right

now I dated this girl for a while and

she was really a nasty freak she just

loved to get down with sex all the time

she was like any time of day she was

like yeah let's go I'm so nasty and I'd

be nailing her oh [ __ ] she'd be like oh

you're nailing me cool she talked dirty

to you oh she loved to Dirty Talk

totally into it she'd be like yeah let's

screw let's I want to

[ __ ] God it was so dirty she'd be like

oh me so horny me love you long time so

so so so what was the titties like bro

yeah this describe her uh yeah oh yeah

she greated tits oh no no no no but I

mean like detail though does she have

like you know them little pink teeny

nipples or or like the long National

Geographic nipples you have like the the

bumpy Braille nipples the Stevie wonders

yeah they were nice you know and like

you grab a woman's breast and it's and

you you feel it and it feels like a bag

of sand when you're touching

it bag of sand

[Music]

a lot of times jokes don't work because

you could tell that joke is just there

because it's a joke and it didn't come

from character or the situation

someone's just hammering a funny line in

but that you know the jokes always work

much better when in your gut you know

that character would say that when we

meet Leaf in the pilot of

crashing what happens is he walks in on

his wife she's alone in bed but she's

sweating and to cover the fact that

she's cheating on him she says she was

masturbating and he's kind of buying it

and then suddenly this you know older

hippie comes out of the

bathroom and

he has uh nothing on except a very small

hand towel covering his

penis and what is funny about it is he's

very sweet and he he's not angry and he

wants to connect with Pete and he wants

to make all of this

okay and you get that joke from the

first moment you you see him and then at

some point as Pete gets mad and yells at

him

for having his hand towel over his penis

he gets nervous and he drops the towel

and then he quickly picks it back up and

so you see his penis which is really the

worst thing that can happen and it

becomes a really really funny weird

confrontation scene we've all seen

scenes where someone

catches uh their wife or their husband

with somebody else it's a very generic

scene the walk-in scene so what makes it

new and what makes it new is leaf is who

the guy is what his attitude is about it

the fact that he's kind of a hippie and

he he doesn't want any confrontation he

actually thinks that maybe they all

could get along and maybe this is the

best thing that ever could have happened

and they're all going to learn something

from it and become close and that's the

absurdity of the scene but the reason

why all that works is you kind of

believe that guy exists you know all of

his theories make sense it's a fully

developed character so it's not written

just for the jokes everything he

says is is is based on his real uh

personality and that really is the the

rule I remember when we were trying to

crack dialogue at the Larry Sanders show

Gary would often say yeah but what would

you say forget the joke in that moment

what would you say and that was always

the beginning of figuring

out how to bad humor but the most

important thing is well what would

actually happen if you just slept with

somebody and the husband came in how

could you behave if you were that

[Music]

guy from very early on we knew we wanted

to end funny people with Adam pitching

jokes to Seth because we knew that that

would show that he had grown as a person

and it's not something veteran comedians

do very often for younger comedians

although in these these days maybe more

so but when I was younger it didn't feel

like a lot of you know big successful

comedians were looking to tag my

jokes so they start kicking around this

joke that's really funny it's true the

video game made me fat minute it is like

my grandmother why are you so fat he has

four gallons of chocolate milk that's

good she would always do that I got one

i' I've been afraid to tell kind of

about like Viagra it's like my

grandfather takes Viagra and he thought

he was uh titty [ __ ] my grandmother

but then he realized he was just titty

[ __ ] his own

balls that's funny you got to do that PR

fun you got to say that the thing that

that when you're that old now that's not

the most sophisticated joke you've ever

heard in your

life but uh but it is the kind of joke

comedians write and sometimes comedians

are delighted to think of the best

disgusting ridiculous filthy joke and we

wanted to that would just make them

giggle cuz it's so stupid and over the

top and I liked it but I thought maybe

it's too dirty can you end a movie on a

[ __ ] your own balls joke is like the

last thing you talk

about and again I asked the Gary

shanding I said what do you think can

you end a movie with a joke about

[ __ ] your own balls and Gary

said you have

to goes that's what it would be that's

what that's what the joke would

be and even though it's it's uh somewhat

heinous in in many

respects it's truthful that's that's

what two Comics giggling while eating

food in Supermarket would would talk

about iog can go wrong in every

conceivable way it could be bad jokes it

could be out of character it could be

bor boring it could be too long it could

be too short it could not be concise it

can not drive forward uh in an

interesting

way and you know when I

work a lot of times I have somebody else

type and I

will try to imagine the scene happening

I'll think about what happens in the

scene and then I might

just say it out loud and Hope my

imagination takes me there once it's

written down then I'm looking at it on

paper and I'm looking line by line and

I'm being a brutal judge of is that a

great line is it funny is it inch

character is it is it a strong as it can

be and then next time I might have

someone else read it to make that same

determination because the last thing you

want is to be on a set hear a scene out

loud for the first time and realize it's

awful so in at at what moment can you

have it come to life before you get to

the set so you can fix it there's

nothing worse than being on a set

desperately trying to fix a terrible

scene that's that's why it's important

to find ways to hear it out loud there

are certainly people who are very

comfortable never rehearsing and they

say I don't want to burn out the actors

I want them to discover it in front of

the camera and they trust their writing

and they might write a whole script

never read it out loud go straight to

the set and I'm sure there are people

who have made brilliant movies some of

our favorite movies of all time where

that has

happened I don't like working that way I

don't have that level of of confidence

I'm looking to test drive it as many

times as possible

before we put it on digital memory cards

[Music]

[Applause]

I met uh this producer when I was a

young not good comedian who encouraged

me to write a television

pilot and he was someone who had done a

fair amount of TV very old school maybe

he did shows that were like Barney B

Jones type

shows

and he said you should write a

pilot and there was no reason for me to

write a pilot I wasn't a writer I wasn't

you know part of that Community but I

sat down uh with my friend Joel Madison

a great comedian from the Midwest and we

wrote a pilot for

our favorite young uh comedy people

Higgins boy the Higgins boys and

grber so how I approached learning to

write that pilot

was I had somebody I don't remember who

hunt me

down scripts of

Taxi and I Read 50 scripts of the TV

show taxi and then I had someone else

hunt me

down The Simpsons scripts Now The

Simpsons had only been on one

season

but I got all the scripts for for those

13 episodes and I read all of them but

what I did was I would read taxi

episodes and as I read them I would

outline them on another piece of paper

first scene this happened second scene

this happened third scene this happened

here's how they resolved that story and

after doing that on a bunch of episodes

I realized that there was a structure

oh they set up the problem on scene one

and then they they they made it worse in

scene 4 and then there was a big blow up

on scene six and then on scene 11 there

was some sort of resolution Grace note

and I I could see how they were

structuring their A and B story and

sometimes a little C story so without

taking a class I I just cracked the

code of how they were telling stories

so Joel and I wrote a pilot uh for them

nothing ever happened with it but I

think we realized oh you can write one

this is what one looks like and we

thought it was it was okay it was a

decent sample of uh of our

writing but most importantly it made us

realize it's possible to start a script

and finish it that's the main thing we

got out of it like oh you can write

something that almost seems like a

sitcom oh people do do this we could be

better at it but this is this is

it every year when a writing room gets

together there are uh different problems

that need to be

solved you have to both come up with

ideas for individual episodes and an

idea for the Arc of the

season so you might have a show like

love where it's about uh a relationship

and they they come together but very

slowly and the point of the show is

we're going to show you everything that

happens in between the things you

normally see so if they meet each other

and don't talk for two weeks we're going

to show you the two weeks so with love

we do that the first

episode would be where you meet Gus and

Mickey you would see the end end of

their previous

relationships you would see how they

react to that and then events would

happen to them and at the very end of

the first episode they both go to the

same Mini Mart at a gas station and meet

so the last second of the first episode

is just them meeting we knew that we

wanted the first season to be

about all the false St starts before

they

decide that they should be a couple or

they should attempt to date so

throughout the

season they're feeling each other out to

decide if they want to go out at all and

one of the

uh choices we made

was that at first he seems really into

her but then he becomes

interested with someone at

work and then even though we think that

she's going to be the one who's going to

be pursued suddenly she gets a little

stalkery and super emotional and it's

Furious that he has a thing happening

with somebody at

work and she melts down and creates a

scene at work and then at the very end

of the

season the unique choice is

that she says to him I saw your

Instagram and I figured you might come

here so I I'm um I just wanted to say

just I just want to apologize to you cuz

I know I [ __ ] everything up and I'm

really sorry and I haven't been honest

with you there's a lot of stuff that I

didn't tell you about myself um I'm an

addict I am a I'm a drug addict and I'm

an alcoholic and I'm a sex and love

addict and I I think I need to just be

by myself for maybe like a year and try

and figure this [ __ ] out but I wanted to

say that I'm sorry to you because you

were a great guy and I really had such a

good time with you and maybe in a year

if if you're willing I would like to get

maybe a coffee with you and

and that's the end of the first season

so in a writer's room we know the ending

of the Season at some point and then

we're trying to build all the steps to

get to that ending so we're having a

conversation about this this one story

which is the 12 episode story and then

we have to figure out all the details of

the 12 steps of that story and that's

not always how it works so sometimes

people on the show are writing episodes

and they do not know what the end of the

season is H I personally don't love

working that way I like to know where

I'm trying to get to so so with every

season on every

show we may not know all the Beats but

we basically try to know where we want

to get at the end of the season and then

we can rewrite the details all day long

but this is the season

where he kisses her when she says she

doesn't want to date and then season two

we knew this is a season where they

start

dating she gets a little panicked and

starts cheating on him and then at the

end of the season right when you think

he's going to catch her cheating he

doesn't she breaks up with the person

she's cheating with and they kiss at the

end of the season and he never finds out

that she was cheating on

him uh and we knew that early on like

this is the season where she cheats and

he doesn't find

[Music]

out when you have

ideas you know early in the process you

usually know if it's a movie or a TV

show you know ideas that need to be

explored over a a long amount of time uh

are the ones you want to do on

television you certainly can can you

know at the last minute go I think it's

a movie but there's a finality to movies

a lot of my movies they I guess it could

have been TV shows it it certainly would

have been fun to have a TV show where

kathern Hegel and and Seth Rogan are

raising a

baby uh but you do make that choice

early on and I I don't think

ideas

necessarily scream that they must be a

movie or a TV show

but when you're making television uh

it's different than movies because with

movies I know this sounds like a crazy

thing to say you have an end and uh and

you have to make choices about whether

it worked out or it didn't work out

whether people wound up happy or unhappy

but with a series it's a it's a

continuous exploration of how people are

doing and that's what's fun about

television so at the end of The

40-Year-Old

Virgin we think oh he's happy he had a

secret he was lonely now he's not lonely

I'm glad that all worked out and that's

a fun experience but if that was a TV

show then the next episode is well how

are they getting along how do they do

with the baby how do all these issues

come back to life in their ongoing sex

life how do they come back to life when

he's a parent what was wrong with him

that made him a virgin that now makes

him a weird parent and that's how series

work if you watch the Larry Sanders show

nothing's ever resolved moments are

resolved daily problems are resolved but

they're all basically continuing at the

same time you don't have to say that

worked out uh you're aware that more

problems are coming more challenges and

that's uh what we love about TV series

that's what we love about The Sopranos

is this ongoing struggle am I a good guy

or am I a demon you know we sense that

he's having some inner conflict about

what kind of person he wants to be we're

learning more and more about how he was

raised and what turned him into Tony

Soprano and you can only do that

deeply uh in television we watched years

and years of that show and you couldn't

have fit that into into two hours

there's an art to choosing what you want

to show in a

movie but it is limited and there is

something wonderful about spending all

those years with Brian

Cranson uh on Breaking Bad and uh

they're both you know fantastic mediums

but television is really about the Deep

exploration without having to make final

determinations about uh these characters

it's an ongoing Journey

[Music]

we have used roundtables uh for movies

and a round table is basically when you

ask you know five to 10 uh writers to

watch a cut of a movie or listen to a

table read and to just kick around how

to make it better the the people in the

room are usually

uh friends of mine sometimes you're just

hiring people sometimes they're friends

of the writers or the directors or the

actors or actresses sometimes you're

going line by line and you're using the

room the way a TV show uses a room to

improve it beat for beat sometimes

you're just talking uh in uh more macro

terms about the story is the story

working how come the big scene at the

end isn't funny and you might take two

hours to to say can we figure out a

better

ending what what what else could we do

here this isn't that good sometimes it's

just criticism you just want to bring

people in to go Tear Me Apart how do you

think we're doing so when we were doing

the four-year-old virgin Adam McCay was

there and Adam said maybe when all the

guys are talking outside for no reason

at all they're hitting each other with

fluorescent bols

and I thought well yes that that makes

perfect sense I remember Chris Brown uh

a great writer who I worked with on

Undeclared and on jilbert Taylor he said

you know maybe uh Steve K's character

has all of these toys and he never takes

them out of the box and he is like the

toy that has never gotten out of the box

we we did a table read of Pineapple

Express once and uh at the table read a

friend of ours

said seems like what this movie is

really about is the fact that James

Franco wants to be friends with Seth and

what you're exploring is are you really

friends with your drug dealer and

they're trying to decide if they're

friends or not and and that changed the

whole movie as soon as we understood

that that's what we were really tracking

is this a real friendship or is this

just a business arrangement we built

everything

around that so it's very helpful to have

friends read things and watch things the

tricky part is sometimes they're they're

terribly off sometimes they're wrong so

you always have to have your own inner

Compass about whether or not you like

the advice and the notes you're

[Music]

getting when you get notes from a lot of

people one thing you're looking for is

uh a similarity in the notes a lot of

times people give notes and you don't

agree with the the notes but you agree

with the criticism but the fix is awful

but you think oh wow I've had about six

or seven people tell me they didn't get

this part or they weren't understanding

what I was doing there so I don't like

how they said to fix it but I guess I

should look at that because something's

going on here so what you want to do you

get

notes is put yourself in a place where

you really try to consider them openly

everyone's reaction to notes is you know

get out of here leave me alone you're

wrong I mean I think we all are so

insecure about doing a bad job that when

you get notes a first instinct is to

want to reject all notes so you you you

definitely need

to think I'm going to think through

every note and how I learned that

lesson was when I worked on a a TV show

called the critic uh which was executive

produced by James

Brooks so Alene and Mike ree created the

show and ran the show and every once in

a while James Brooks would come in and

he would take pictures for

episodes

and when he would listen to people's

stories a lot of the time the stories

were terrible and I would hear the story

and I would think why isn't he telling

them to stop pitching this is clearly an

awful idea but he never did he always

really listened deeply and he tried to

understand what they were talking about

and then he would ask questions and

steer it around a little bit to see what

was there and to see if it would spark

another

[Music]

idea I think the key is when you're

getting notes or criticism

if you think that people can force their

notes on you you're you're more inclined

to shut down but if you know you're the

final Arbiter of whether or not to take

notes well then there's no reason to not

listen deeply the best example of of of

being careful about taking

notes uh comes from when we did the

pilot for the Ben Stiller show so this

was a new type of sketch show

with very cinematic short

films I I was very inspired by Albert

Brooks as was Ben Stiller so we said

let's show

Albert this pilot and I also showed Gary

Shandling there were seven or eight

sketches in the

pilot Albert named four he liked and

then four he didn't like and Gary named

four he liked and four he didn't like

and they were almost the opposite and I

thought oh so

Geniuses can completely disagree on

what's good and what's funny or what's

special and it made me realize that I

had to be the judge of what my style was

or what I liked because if Gary shaning

and Albert Brooks don't agree on whether

or not a certain sketch is great then uh

then the whole audience feels that way

that everyone is deciding I like this

one and I don't like that one and you

have to be the final judge for how you

feel about it there was a funny moment

when we were editing funny

people

and I asked Paul Thomas Anderson to come

into editing and help me look

for

trims and to generally give me advice

and we were having a hard time figure

out how to end the

movie and he said you know what you

could do

uh you could have them say this and then

just cut to Black and hit the song hard

when you cut to Black and you'll cut out

of the scene just kind of a a beat

before you assume you would and then hit

your

credit so I asked the Ador I said just

put it together the way Paul just

recommended and when he did it felt

exactly like a Paul Thomas Anderson

movie it was a giant lesson it felt

exactly like him

and I loved it and for a while I thought

this is great and ultimately I didn't

use it if only because it wasn't the

style we were working in but it also

made me realize that I could have handed

all of my footage to Paul Thomas

Anderson and he would have found a way

to cut it into what would feel like a

Paul Thomas Anderson movie and that's

happened where I've gotten notes from

people that I really respect and their

notes are through how they make

films uh and and you realize that note

is a good note but it will feel like

that person's movie and so sometimes

those notes are perfect and they work

and sometimes

they can be perfect but not perfect for

how you tell stories and I'm sure I do

that to people where I give notes and it

would seem like a Jud movie if you took

the note it would be too

[Music]

long there's nothing more important than

finding out who you want to collaborate

with

so I've had movies where it goes great

and I can talk to somebody like Nick

Stoler or Seth Rogan and in years we

don't have a tense moment about the

creative work and other people every

every moment is a little a little rough

because you realize oh we're speaking a

different language this was a mistake we

should not be working together you might

do great work without me and I might do

great work without you but we think

differently and how we express ourselves

is different

and this is a bad match it's like a

super group you know every once in a

while a bunch of rock stars say we're

going to start a rock band with all big

kickass giant rockstars and then they

all join together and it just

sucks sometimes it's not the traveling

wheel berries uh it's some weird hybrid

that has Ted nent in it

so you slowly you realize I like this

kind of person this kind of person gets

me I like how this person handles me I

like the type of feedback I'm getting

because you can destroy things very

easily with the wrong notes so when I'm

producing

something I'm trying to listen to the

intentions of the

writers when I was working with the

camale and Emily on The Big

sick it was important for me to

understand their story to understand

what was important about their story

and to

know how to push them in areas that they

were not comfortable writing about and

when to back off because that's not uh

an area I should have a a comment about

and in that situation it worked very

well but it it was years of rewrites and

discussions where we would sit down and

say how do you feel about

religion and if your parents are very

religious and they want you to be

religious why aren't you religious and

do you think it's because they pressure

you or do you think uh you're just on a

different Journey spiritually than they

are and how do you want to express that

in this

movie and you have to become very

close to resolve these these things lot

of times you're getting notes from

strength Rangers you know you'll work on

things and you'll get the notes and you

go who are these from oh Gary who's Gary

oh yeah Gary works in the office you

haven't met Gary really I I gotta take

Gary's notes who's Gary I've lived my

whole life without getting notes from

Gary suddenly he's like part of this

process

table readings

are very helpful a lot of it is about

casting every once in a while you cast

the wrong person and it can completely

change how your script reads and you

might decide you hate your script

because you C the wrong person at your

table read or a whole section doesn't

work could you happen to have miscast

something so there's some danger in it I

remember we once uh did a a table read

for Walk Hard and the Dad was supposed

to be very loud and yell at John C

Riley's Johnny Cash like

character and say the wrong kid died

about the fact that Dewey Cox's brother

died when he was a

K and we did a table read and we

had a very famous actor read the dad and

every time he was supposed to yell he

would go wrong kid

dad and we were like what is happening

he's like yeah wrong kid D and it ruined

massive movements of the table read and

and the whole table read started

collapsing because it didn't have this

manic anger That was supposed to drive

this

character and and so you have to also be

careful because you know sometimes

somebody uh you know

doesn't actualize is that the word you

know doesn't perform it the way you

envisioned it and and then you don't

want to toss it all out because it it

was read wrong that's the difficult part

about it

is sometimes a part only works when you

have perfect casting when we were

casting super bad we knew early on we

wanted Michael Sarah to be uh one of the

two leads and then we needed to find

somebody as good as Michael Sarah which

we found to be almost impossible and

read a hundred people and no one was as

funny as Michael Sarah because no one on

earth is basically as funny as Michael

Sarah and then one

day we were on the set of Knocked Up and

Jonah was there and we had always

thought Jonah was too old for the part

because Michael Sarah was 18 and maybe

Jonah was 22 or 23 and and then we just

said all right Jonah go shave really

well and videotape yourself doing this

part and then it became so obvious that

it should be Jonah and that's an

interesting part of it is it was the

exact same words and with other people

it was just bombing but with Jonah it

was right ously funny so you know

everything has to be handled perfectly

or comedy collapses it's like if you if

you asked someone else to be Groucho

Marx in a Marx Brothers movie you'd be

like what is that that's awful because

really only one guy can do it

sometimes everything about screenwriting

is about the rewrites so you could bang

out a draft but really it's going to

become amazing through these revisions

and sometimes it doesn't feel like it's

working at all and then you crack

something that changes everything so for

many years Kristen wig and Annie malalo

were writing drafts of

bridesm but for a long time the drafts

uh were where they needed to be and one

of the issues was that Kristen wig and

Annie Muma were really enjoying writing

for all the supporting characters but we

really didn't know who Kristen wigs

character was and we didn't understand

what was funny about that character you

know from the very beginning the story

was about a woman who uh feels terrible

about her life when she's invited to to

be a maid of honor and she doesn't even

have the money to go through all the

activities that these women do and it

forces her to look at her life and go

how come it's not going better how come

I don't have a boyfriend and how come I

don't have a job that I like and and she

feels terrible which again is a dramatic

idea

um so we would do table reads and they

didn't work very well and it just wasn't

sparking and we didn't know enough about

Annie about the main character and we

didn't understand our our themes yet and

then Christ and wig and Annie

mumo they took six months away they just

disappeared I thought maybe they just

decided not to work on it anymore uh and

then one day they just handed me a new

draft and they had realize that the

movie was about the fact that she was

blaming everybody else for her problems

and like most people she has obstacles

to having her life go well but the

difference with her is she was playing

victim and everything was an

ex-boyfriend's fault or her mother's

fault and once she realizes that she is

responsible and she needs to make better

choices and not blame the world then uh

she knows what to do and then she can

accept the love of uh this uh police

officer that's fallen in love with her

and she can accept the fact that her

best friend is growing and now is

getting married and they can find a new

relationship based on the fact that

she's married and she's not really

losing her it's just changing and and

you can have a happy ending uh but until

they understood that thematic idea they

really weren't sure what to do with this

character but as soon as it became about

you know blaming other

people she knew what was funny about

that and what would enrage her when

things went wrong and and how needy she

would be to to keep her life uh the way

it is and not lose her friend to this

new friend she had made who had money

you know it was like comedically she

understood everything that they would

need to write and how she would need to

perform it to have this this

work I don't think the writing should

ever stop till the movie's locked so on

set you want to be rewriting all day

long you know a show like vep they'll

have uh 10 writers at the monitor all

day long while they're shooting just

writing jokes they think can top the

jokes they're shooting at that moment

and on a comedy movie I I if the set is

working well and has a strong director

who understands how to use extra

material you should always be generating

what you think might be helpful in

editing there are definitely scenes that

you like and you think I I don't need

anything extra or maybe just this one

line let's get a couple of tweaks it's

not every scene but you certainly want

to look at every scene uh Through The

Eyes of yourself while in editing so

before I say we're done with this scene

I always think if I'm in editing and I

hate this why would I hate it would it

be that it's not funny enough okay let's

get some extra jokes could it be that it

actually might need to be a serious

scene and I'm being too silly and jokey

with it all right Let's do let's do a

take or two and let's strip out the

jokes and perform it a little more

seriously and I will run that for every

scene in my head you know very

symol if this sucks what will I wish I

did and then I try to do that also

If it seems like we're going to make the

movie, my approach is to try to cast it

as early as possible. A lot of times

people cast a movie in the last couple

of weeks before they shoot the movie.

Sometimes they're casting the movie as

they're shooting, but I always feel like

if I could cast the movie six months

before I shoot, then during those six

months, I could be doing table reads and

rehearsals,

the actors and actresses can become

friends. Uh I remember I did uh a TV

pilot with Jason Seagull and Kevin Hart,

and I made them live together for a week

so they could figure out what their

dynamic was.

And so,

you know, when we were working on Train

Wreck, when we hired uh Bill her to to

play the part, uh you know, we made sure

that there was enough time for Amy and

Bill to become friends and to hang out

and figure out, hey, if we liked each

other, why would we like each other?

What is our chemistry? Not just as the

characters we've written, but also just

in real life. Like, how do we relate to

each other? So to do things early is

always very very helpful.

I'm not really sure if there's a way to

explain how

to decide who to cast. You know, for me,

I just, you know, have a an immediate

reaction. Oh, I like that person. I want

to know more about that person. I'd like

to spend time with that person. But it

really is as simple as do I want to see

that person? You know, sometimes you see

a movie and there's someone has a small

part and you say,"I wish the whole movie

was about that woman. I wish I wish she

just left this scene and the movie was

her life." Uh, and and and that's really

what casting is. Sometimes someone comes

in and you don't know why and you just

think, I can watch that person all day.

And you know, we've felt that, you know,

about a lot of people. I remember when

Jason Seagull came in and he auditioned

for Freaks and Geeks and he was 18 years

old and he he did a scene that Paul

wrote which was uh him describing his

drum kid and his dreams

and we just fell in love with him

instantly and you know we didn't know

why but he was very openhearted

and and sweet and there was also a a

sense of

you know he had a puppy dog expression

ession, you also felt like you could

hurt him. Uh, and at the same time,

you'd enjoy seeing him get hurt, if that

makes any sense. Cuz some people are

nice and you enjoy beating them up in

movies and then seeing how they deal

with it and then how they triumph over

that. Uh, Ben Stiller is like that. For

some reason, people like to see bad

things happen to Ben and to see how he

gets through it and then ultimately

wins. and we had that feeling about

Jason. Um, but it's that, you know, it's

different for every person. When we met

uh Emma Stone on Super Bad, I think we

thought, you know, she's a great

actress. She's the most likable person

I've ever seen. And she also seems smart

and funny and the type of person who in

high school would like

Jonah. she would be able to see that

beneath all of uh his his bluster was a

great guy and and that made us love her,

that she would know that he was awesome.

Uh and and that's what made their

relationship so realistic and sweet and

funny because two people that seem very

different are actually perfect together.

For me, I'm trying to get to the essence

of who the person is. In a lot of ways,

the scene doesn't matter. The scene is

just a way for me to get a vibe if this

feels right, if this person feels

correct for the part. A lot of times I

make people improvise. you know, if

people aren't good at improvising, I I I

I I don't really uh hold it against them

unless the part really requires it.

There are certain parts that you

realize, yeah, I need somebody who can

lift off this script is not going to be

great for this scene, but with the right

actor or actress that this could become

something really, really funny. And and

that happens. So sometimes in an

audition I'll say, "Let's just do it

again, but don't worry about the words

as much." Like, "Stay on it, but

you can drift." And then in other

auditions or at other times, I'll say,

"Just drop the paper. Let's do the

scene, but you don't have to say any of

the words from the scene, but you

understand

the point of the scene, and we have to

get from A to B, but don't do it with

those words."

uh just to see how much of a writing

mind someone has, how they improvise.

Sometimes their take is way better than

the script and they they come up with

something that I never would have

thought of. When Jane Lynch uh

auditioned for the 40-year-old Virgin,

that was just an attitude she brought

into the audition and a point of view

that, you know, was so funny in an

improvisation that we rewrote the movie

to it.

Appreciate your concern. How old are

you?

I'm 40.

I'm 40.

Yeah.

Um,

did you date in high school?

Yeah, I did. I Yes.

Girls?

Yes. You know what? It's It's a little

hard.

It's personal. I bet it is.

It's really hard.

It is hard.

No, I didn't date in high school.

No.

No. I I didn't go to the I went to the

prom, but I got stood out in the middle

of prom. So,

but uh you know, I was about I think I

was 33 when I lost my virginity, and

that was like freakish.

I This is really uncomfortable.

And that happens a lot. you you do

sometimes need people who can come in

and say, "I'm going to create this

character for you and work with you uh

on the revisions and in rehearsals to

make it all their own." An example of

that would be when Melissa McCarthy came

in for Bridesmaids. Uh I I wasn't

familiar, you know, with her work. I I

hadn't seen The Gilmore Girls, so this

is just a to me it's just a stranger.

And you know, she came in uh both guns

blasting and made really big, strong,

hilarious choices

and we thought, "Wow, this, you know,

this is this is perfect." But we gave

her a lot of rope to play and improvise.

And then once we saw her, uh, you we all

talked about the character and Annie and

Kristen went back and revised the script

to tailor it to Melissa's personality

and and her gifts. So, that's an example

of somebody just coming in, you know,

blowing the room away.

Uh, and and that happens every once in a

while. You have to have the confidence

to do it. You have to know what you're

doing. I certainly have had people try

to do it and fail and that's not

pleasant when someone's like, "I'm about

to rock your world."

Here's

the thing about directing and and and

working with actors is you have to have

a great respect for the actors and

actresses because uh it's just scary.

It's a scary thing to do. It's very hard

to be vulnerable. It's a a difficult

skill to access all of your emotions. I

think people think it's easy and people

are just goofing around. But if you need

someone to be sad, they might have to go

to a deep emotional place to pull that

up and put themselves, you know, in a in

a state of some kind. Um, you could say

that for being, you know, scared. You

could say it for being happy. It's just

a it's emotionally very taxing to be uh

an actor. And it is a gift. They are

giving you a gift. They're giving you a

piece of themselves. So, a set should be

built around respecting that.

You also want to talk to the actors.

Now, I I could say actors and actresses

each time. I'm going to say actors

because sometimes people say that to

mean both. And it it just makes the

sentences longer. So, actors means

actors and actresses.

You know what? I'm going to reverse it.

I'm going to say actresses, but it also

means actors. So you can, you know, so

you want your your actresses to feel

comfortable. And one way I do it is I

try to set a pace where no one feels

rushed. I think that a lot of bad acting

happens because people don't know how

many takes they're going to get. They

don't know how many shots they have and

they don't feel trusted and and

encouraged. So for me, the easiest way

to do it is to tell them what we're

going to do before we start. A lot of

people don't do that. They do a take and

then they're like, "Cut, we're done."

And people are like, "I thought I was

going to get five more." And and that's

what freaks them out because they want

to do a great job and they they need to

know how many runs am I going to get at

this? How many times am I going to get

to really experiment and play? You know,

if you work on a Clint Eastwood movie,

he likes to do two takes, sometimes one

take. So when you get hired on that job,

you think, I I really better know my

stuff. He wants something very

immediate.

Uh, and

I guess that works for him. His work is

generally very strong. I don't

ultimately think it's a great idea. I

think if he gave everybody five, maybe

some other things would happen. Uh, but

but at least the actresses know

what they're in for, what they have to

prepare for, and maybe that creates some

sort of immediate energy and and terror.

Who knows? That brings about some great

performances that maybe he wouldn't get

if he if they knew they were getting 10

shots at it. I I don't know. But at

least he tells them. And that's what I

like to do. I like to tell people. But

the second I tell the actress, hey,

we're going to do we're certainly going

to do this five or six times. They just

go

and then and you could say the same

thing at an audition. If you say to uh

an actress at an audition, hey, we're

going to do this a couple of times, so

don't worry. They do it so much better

the first time because they're so

nervous that they're not going to do it

right the first time that they're

they're stiff. It's very hard to be

loose and in the moment when you're

trying to impress somebody and remember

everything you were trying to do. But if

you take them off the hook immediately

and go, "Hey, we're going to do this a

few times, so I'm not going to rush

you." then a whole layer of uh

interference in their mind sometimes

disappears. Uh and they they have a

quicker road to doing what they you know

wanted to do for me uh as opposed to if

they think they have one shot. Damn it,

I screwed that up.

I never went to acting school. So my

education about actors is limited to

working with actors. It is not an area

where I've even spent a lot of time

educating myself. I I have been around

people who do it and I've seen how how

directors talk to the actors. But for me

it's very simple. I try to get people

really qualified

and I try not to interfere with their

ideas

as much as I can. And then I try to

subtly

inject my ideas

and that has

seemed to go okay for me. The first time

I directed, I directed an episode of the

Larry Sanders Show. I was a writer on

the show. I was terrified to direct. I

didn't ask Gary if I could direct the

show. Just one day he walked in my

office and he said, "You're doing the

next one." And I couldn't have been more

scared because I

was going to have to direct not just

Gary, but Rip Tor and Jeffrey Tambour

and the rest of the cast. But these were

serious

hardcore actors. You know, Jeffrey

Tambour is one of the greats. also an

acting teacher. Um, you know, Rip is

from uh uh you know, the actor studio

and you know, he's he's a he's a legend

and and isn't thrilled to get your notes

either. He he feels like he knows what

he's doing. Um, so I was scared to death

and I didn't know what to do. So what I

did was

I read one book about it which was David

Mamemoth on directing. Now he just did a

master class. You could you could listen

to it. He has very strong theories about

all this and I agree with 19% of them.

But he said one thing which I think has

uh helped me more than almost anything

else in terms of talking to actors and

actresses which is

he said when an actor does a

a take

you don't have to give them tons of

notes and try to say say this line this

way and that line that way and then here

be angrier and here be sadder and then

there you feel bad that you were angry

and then that makes you depressed. Like

you're just going to get in people's

head and drive them crazy.

And his advice was if you give someone

the tiniest simple direction, it will

change everything they do in the entire

take. So if someone has a scene and you

walk up at the end and go, you know

what, you seem very confident, but I

think I think you're pretending to be

confident, but you're actually a little

scared.

Every line will be said differently on

the next take.

Then once that feels right, you might

say, "Hey, by the way, on this one line,

I think you got to hit it harder." But I

I try not to give many of those uh to

the performers. Um unless it's it it's

it's really not working the way uh I I

want it to work. And I do think that

that's true. You can tell actresses very

little and suddenly they can transform

the scene to something spectacular.

Um,

but it's different with every every

every

person. Every person responds

differently. Some people want it all.

They're just like, "Give it to me. Give

it to me. What was good? What was bad?"

And other people,

you literally don't even direct them.

There are people that if you watch their

takes and they do six takes, you can see

them fine-tuning their own performance.

They just know how to do it.

You know, some people need a lot of

support. The the thing that people

forget is after a take,

actors and actresses are like, "How was

it? How was it?" and they want you to

walk over and help them keep their

confidence. They feel very lost because

it's such a vulnerable thing to do that

you you want somebody to give you even

if it's just a look like we're rocking

it. This is great. You know, have fun.

You're you're in the groove. And if it's

not going well,

it's very important that you find a way

to be

supportive and kind, but also very

honest and direct. So, there's a way to

walk up to someone and say like, you

know what I think we need to do? I I I

think uh I think you have to remember

that she's so sad and when the person

comes to the door, it's all about trying

to look like you're not sad, but I don't

know if that's coming across yet. So,

let's let's try a couple more and see.

And and they respect that as well. You

know, people don't want to be beat up

on. Nobody wants to be on set and have

the director go, "What are you doing?

Why would you do that?

Oh my god, have you been to acting

school?

Uh, that's not the way to do it. But

they they they want to feel like they

have a relationship with the director

where they can trust their judgment

about how they're doing where where the

director is being uh, you know, truthful

with them so that they they can go, "Oh,

okay. I someone's covering my ass and

letting me know what's really happening

here." And that only works if the

performer and the director are generally

in sync and respect each other and and

creatively have the same intentions.

And that takes work. And that's why it's

helpful to get to know each other and

rehearse a little bit so you could build

that rapport. But in the best situation,

if it's not going well, it doesn't have

to get weird and they can sit together

and go, "Okay, what do we do here? This

doesn't feel great. What what what what

what are our options for how to make

this stronger?

There is a way to direct comedy where

you are yelling things out in the middle

of takes.

This is something that I only do at the

very end after having a lot of takes,

which I like. So if you have a scene

and an actress is doing the scene

basically if you interrupt in the middle

and go

uh for say say her line is like hey Bill

and then she says hey Bill and then the

director goes out say what's up my man

Bill. Um, sometimes that's very helpful

to get that. But what I like to do is

let them do the whole scene with no

interruptions, not stepping in asking

for things till the actress feels like

we have it and they're happy with their

performance and then we we start playing

and then it can get really sloppy. Say

this, say that, try this, slap him in

the face. I mean, you can get all sorts

of pieces, but you're not going to get

the full performance of the scene, and

that that can be very hard uh uh for

actors and actresses to to be

interrupted, to lose their energy flow

because the directors, you know, like,

you know, spit the water at them now,

and then they lose the fact that they're

feeling an emotion or or something. Uh

so, you want to make sure they feel

happy that they got full performances

and then and it it is helpful if you

like to work that way.

to say, you know, okay, try this line.

Sometimes I'll just have a list of like

30 lines and I'll just say, all right,

Paul, look at Leslie and say

this line. Okay, can you say this line?

Can you say this line? And some people

are very comfortable

doing it. And some people, you know,

don't enjoy doing it because it just

feels artificial to them. And it really

is about uh whether or not everyone has

decided they like working that way. And

if someone says, I I don't really work

that way. I rather cut and give me a

couple. I'll memorize them and do them.

Then we then we do it that way. You have

to respect the fact that you can't force

people to work in a style which doesn't

help them do their best work.

[Music]

in every audition you

should appear like you like the project

because you'd be surprised how many

people come in and they seem like they

don't even like the movie I've had

people come in and read they seem kind

of annoyed with the pages that's that

really the moment to tell people you

have notes

you know if you if you don't think it's

great they don't they're not going to

want you they want someone that is so

excited to do it so maybe your best

piece of acting will have to be I think

the script isn't

[ __ ] but but

you you want to work with people who you

think get you and are very enthusiastic

about the material and about the

potential for the movie or the TV show

and that seems like an obvious piece of

advice but

it it it really comes across when this

is your fifth edition of the day and you

don't care that much you know when

someone writes something they feel like

this is so special don't you think it's

special and if the other one person's

like it's all

right you know the writer's like get the

[ __ ] out of here so so enthusiasm is

also

[Music]

important one other bit of a advice I

could give about casting is uh no matter

what you're trying to do you do come

through

so what you're trying to accomplish when

you walk in in that room in addition to

doing your scene and doing your scene

well is being comfortable enough to be

yourself and if your main intention is

to get across who you are you have to

you have to like yourself because people

who have some self-esteem and we are all

struggling um are able to walk in a room

and say this is me because we can tell

anyway whatever you are is coming

through and that you relates to what I

was talking to before about Gary

Shandling talking about how his

intention was to just be Gary Shandling

and I think that is what you're trying

to do when you walk in all those rooms

is just go yeah this is me I'm

comfortable as me auditions are

terrifying and it's much better if you

could find a way to get rid of as much

of that fear as you can if only because

it is an obstacle to coming across if we

see a nervous person we don't actually

see the person that you are most of the

rest of your life we're getting a

different version uh it's like J Bell

doesn't like roller coasters and so if I

say you have to go on this roller

coaster he might start crying so imagine

if you're introduced to Jay in front of

a roller coaster you go oh J the guy

that cries because you don't actually

know who he is you just know him in that

situation where he's afraid see how long

a road I took you on a strange metaphor

to to make my

[Music]

point neediness is not helpful you know

the scared needy I need this job you

know that that I think uh is it is the

word repulse

repulsive repulses people is that too

strong yeah you don't want to seem like

needy and desperate and hey how's it

going and you have to find your your

grounded Center to talk to people a lot

of times people feel like there's a time

limit and if they're if you're only

going to chat for 20 seconds I got to

get certain things in and and sometimes

that can get Manic and and nuts so the

first thing you're acting when you walk

into an audition is that you're not

desperate and

hungry uh you should look excited to be

there not too excited and and com

[Music]

able you need to learn how to relax and

how can you do that is there any trick

to not being terrified well it's good to

have some nerves because sometimes

that's the energy that Sparks your

interest but I think you have to realize

that you're going to go on an enormous

amount of auditions and you're going to

get almost none of them and you have to

enjoy the process C of auditioning and

the process of meeting people because a

lot of times you go on an audition you

don't get it but they like you but not

for that and later they might go you

know this person came in uh for

something else they they're right for

this and you have to be aware that

that's what's happening uh we met munis

for um knocked up and we just thought

she is so great but she does not look

like she have any issues handling a

pregnancy and she's so so much tougher

than Seth and kind of in a weird way

similar to

Seth in in their sense of humor and

their strength and it just felt wrong

just her and Seth didn't feel like a

couple

um so when we started talking about who

should be in Forgetting Sarah Marshall

very early on Nick Stoler the director

and I were talking and I said you know

who's incredible is is me Luna she came

in un Knocked Up and she wasn't right

for that but she should be perfect for

this and that's happening in every

audition uh you go to people are judging

you but not just for that part they're

now you're on the list for that casting

director or that director or

producer of people they like or people

that they don't like because they might

decide they hate you that happens as

well try to do things where they won't

hate you but I think I I read this in

Kevin Hart's book which I highly

recommend is uh he he's just said in

every audition he just tried to have a

great time and to connect with everyone

and be real and and be himself and I

think that is very

helpful when I audition people I I

expect them to have thought about it and

worked on it I'm not nuts where if they

change a few words or it gets

sloppy that I think that's a bad thing I

do want to feel like they cared about it

and I always say to uh actresses you

should tell them before you start you

want to do it a couple of times I I I

think you're allowed to do that I think

you could walk into an audition and say

I'm never good on the first one so uh if

you don't mind I'd like to do it two

times every single time I think the

casting director or the director will

say great it also shows that you you

know how you work and you're confident

and uh you have a sense of uh you

know of what's going to help you give

them what they want they ultimately want

to see you do it great and I've had

auditions where people come in and

they're just terrible in the first take

and there's a little minor talk about

what to do and the second take it's the

best thing you've ever seen uh so it is

important to stand up for yourself if

you think there's something that the

director or casting director can do for

you you you're allowed to to tell them

unless it's for an Arby's commercial

then you're [ __ ] cuz they will not

make an adjustment at Arby's

When you're making a movie, it's all

about setting your comedic style and

your tone. And sometimes you that's

happening slowly as you write, as you

rehearse, even as you shoot. So, there's

styles of comedy that are very realistic

and they play almost like a drama, but

they're funny. So, you might say

broadcast news is like that. It's it's

it's all very real and credible. Uh the

comedy comes from character. It's very

human. Then there are movies like

something about Mary where it's also uh

emotionally driven but they will go

farther and he'll you know have his

testicles stuck in a zipper and she'll

have uh ejaculate in her hair and and

they're coming up with a tone that they

think works for their comedic style.

So it might have edgier jokes and uh

some broader type of jokes, but they in

that case with Something About Mary

found a way to keep it emotionally very

involving and credible, but they had

their own unique

hard comedy style. And that's what we

love about the Fairley brothers is they

will go farther than you expect. and

and that was a choice that they made and

every movie is making that choice. When

we did train wreck, Amy Schumer had

written a lot of flashbacks, fantasies,

worries that you would you would go to.

So, there was a sequence where she

imagined being married to Bill her and

they're driving in a minivan and they're

very suburban and they have multiple

kids and the kids are screaming at her

and it's her vision of hell.

There was another sequence uh where

Bill her is talking to a bunch of

gentlemen at this baby shower

and he's telling them that he's a sports

doctor and they keep asking him, "Well,

who do you who do you see?" and he

mentions all these famous athletes and

the guys are so excited that he knows

Roger Federer and he knows these famous

pitchers and it goes through this weird

fantasy sequence where the guys are so

excited that it becomes like a beer

commercial where they're like pouring a

hose on themselves and and it becomes

very homoerotic because they're so

excited that this guy knows athletes.

Both sequences were cut out of the movie

because ultimately the

comedic style didn't want those

sequences. It was uh realistic uh and in

Amy's comedic voice, but when you went

to

fantasies and absur absurd uh

nightmares,

the movie said, "I I don't want this in

it. This this isn't what we're doing.

Usually when you're in prep, you you

have to

describe uh this movie and your vision

for it to your department heads, to your

production designer and your costume

designer and your cinematographer. And

that can be done in a number of ways.

You might show them some movies and say

it's in the world of this. You're not

copying it, but you know, we're not

doing Airplane. We're doing

a a movie in the world of Say Anything.

Uh, and and that helps people understand

tone. You know, what is our level of

realism? you know, if uh we're making a

movie like Walk Hard, which is a parody

of Walk the Line and Ray, we'll watch

all those movies and we'll we'll talk

about the outfits. Uh and Deborah

Magguire did the costumes on that movie

and you know how how broad we want to

get, how much fun we want to have with

it. And we'll talk to the actors and

actresses about what level of sincerity

they should perform with because it's a

little more amped up like a biopic

and department by department we're

you know setting the tone. When you do a

TV show and a director comes in to be a

guest director, they do a tone meeting

and basically

you go through every page and talk about

the needs of every department and you

are describing the tone, the tone of the

clothes, the tone of the sets, the tone

of the photography, the tone of the

performances.

uh and if those conversations uh have

been uh fruitful in prep, then once you

get to set, everyone knows exactly what

they're doing. For me, it's very simple.

I usually say, well, you know, uh

they're in this restaurant. Let's get a

restaurant that looks like a restaurant,

you know, and then there are movies that

like it's a super stylized restaurant

and we've we've made the restaurant blue

because he's feeling blue or whatever,

you know, you might want to add on to

it. I I'm generally going for realism.

There might be a color palette. There

might be a sense of let's have this

movie be a little colorful and fun. Or

another time we might say, "No, it's

just totally real." Greg Matah, who

directed Superb Bad so amazingly, uh,

you know, it's a very realistic looking

world. Um, and that is what makes it

funnier is, you know, in a weird way it

looks like After Hours or a Scorsese

movie, but you will, you know, you you

sit down with everybody and you say,

"Well, what are we doing here?" So they

understand, "We're going to play this

real." As silly as it seems, it it it's

it's meant to be as realistic as

possible and performed as real and

emotional as possible. And hopefully

this, you know, the great script that

Seth and Evan wrote, you know, has all

the laughs, but it's all organic and

it's all it's all credible. Um, you

don't need to do silly sets. This

shouldn't look like a big brightly

colored, you know, goofy comedy. This

isn't uh this isn't spies like us for

you comedy fans. Uh, it should look it

should look more like After Hours than

Spies Like Us. And and that's that's the

type of conversation you have before you

start so people know the movie that

you're

There are many things I wish people told

me when I first started out. One was

it's not hard to direct. For years I

thought it's so hard to direct. I'm so

scared and I waited a very long time uh

to direct because I thought what if it

doesn't work? What if the eyelines don't

match? What if I get all the film and I

put it together and it just looks like

craziness? And then I finally directed

and I realized, oh, the DP makes sure it

looks good. Why did you why did you wait

an extra seven years to do this? Uh, so

my first lesson is uh you could direct

now. You have a phone. You can make

anything with your phone. When I was

young, if you wanted to make a movie,

you had to have a super eight camera.

You didn't know how to work it. You had

to take a razor blade and cut the film

together. You didn't know how to get

sound. It cost a lot of money. And once

you had a super eight film, how was

anyone going to look at it? Nobody had a

projector. No one was going to look at

it. So you would work hard, make

something that no one would look at. Now

you can make something funny on your

phone. You can edit it on your phone.

It's all free. So basically, there's no

reason not to make little comedy films.

The only reason is you are a lazy son of

a [ __ ]

I I'm a voracious uh consumer of all

comedy information and was since I was a

kid. So if I was to advise people about

what else they could do to learn,

I think that you could start with the

books. There's there's a lot of great

books out there. John Sales has an

amazing book called uh Thinking in

Pictures. Sydney Lamett wrote an

incredible book about film making. You

could just Google best books ever about

film making and read them. And very

early in my life, I heard that Woody

Allen said

that everything he learned in film

school, he could have learned uh from

reading a book and also reading the book

The Art of Dramatic Writing by Lelos

Egri. There's no way I pronounce that

correctly, by the way. Um but but that

really made me feel better because I

thought, oh yeah, so you can go to film

school and there are some people who

love it. they get so much out of it and

they make movies and they love the

professors and they uh they they take

everything from it. And there are other

people that just make their own movies

and they learn it all as they go by

educating themselves and reading books

and I go into Barnes & Noble all the

time and there's books that are not even

thick. They're thin books and they they

explain the angles and the shots. Here's

the master. Here's singles. Here's dirty

overs. Here's a tracking shot. I mean,

there's not that many shots. Here's my

best piece of advice for you. None of

this is that hard. You know, people make

it seem very mysterious. They talk about

it like it's so complicated. There are

things that are more complicated than

this. Almost everything is more

complicated than this. There's some

artistry involved that that you you

either have an eye and a feel for it or

you don't. But the technical aspect of

it is not that complicated. There's two

people talking. There's a scene from far

away where you see the whole room. Then

you might have a closer two shot. Then

you have a single on one where you don't

see the other person. And then you might

do a wider single where you see that

person's shoulder. And you do it on the

other side also. You're done. You just

made a movie.

Now, this sounds obvious, but

I'll say it anyway because you probably

haven't done it and maybe won't do it.

But sometimes I just go on YouTube and

I'll just search somebody who who I

admire and there's eight billion

interviews with him. So if you love Paul

Thomas Anderson and you think, "Wow, he

doesn't speak publicly that much."

Google him. He's talks all the time.

There's all sorts of Q&As and panels.

Sometimes they're interviewing him.

Sometimes he's interviewing someone

amazing. Uh and you could do that for

anybody. You you could uh you could say

uh I wonder what what Patty Jenkins

approach to Wonder Woman was. And

there's there's YouTube interviews and

profiles. There's DVD commentaries. I

mean, uh, people don't understand how

much information is out there that you

could just, you know, go to some used

DVD store and listen to Sydney Pollock

and Martin Scorsese and Steven Soderberg

and Mike Nichols, uh, you know, talk you

through their work. And for me, that's

something that I I really did take

advantage of. I would I would sit and

watch Pulp Fiction and listen to Quinton

Tarantino or listen to Nicole Holof

Center do Walking and Talking or whoever

your favorite filmmakers are. And

they're teaching you how to do it. Like

it's amazing how much of that is out

there. If you want to watch Almost

Famous and hear Cameron Crow explain how

he wrote that and what his approach was,

it's out there. So, you really should

take uh advantage of that. You might

say, "I love Lena Dunham. I want to

watch everything. She's got three

movies. She's got a TV series. I'm going

to listen to her commentaries. I'm going

to watch a bunch of her interviews. I'm

going to read some articles she's

written." And, you know, if you're

paying attention, you can get a ton out

of that. And then you have to take it to

the street and make something or write

something. I mean, that's that's that's

the that's the part most people don't

bother with, which is, well, who am I?

I'm not like Lena. But if I look at my

life the way Lena looked at her life,

you know, where do I come from? What's

my point of view? What are my problems?

What are my obstacles? What are the

stories which surround me? And you you

apply it to your world. You may not be

from Brooklyn. You may not be a

self-entitled woman who just got out of

college who's making her way in New York

City for the first time. You may be from

Madison, Wisconsin.

and you are a librarian at the

university and go.

I only have one rule on set which is uh

get a clean single of every person in

every scene which means you don't have

another person in the shot because

sometimes if they're babbling or

overlapping I can't I can't cut around

it. So, you can get all sorts of shots.

You can get any shot you want, but

ultimately

I will never be [ __ ] if I have a clean

single of every actress in every scene.

Your turn. Okay. Um, last week I let my

six-year-old watch Glee.

I know.

Too soon.

I know. I know.

That's very racy.

There were some um homosexual

undertones. I will say that there were

two girls kissing in this episode and

you know I haven't even explained to

them what gay people are.

Uh they're people.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Amy, your turn.

Um I don't know how I'm going to follow

these.

A lot of people are trying to uh you

know create scenes where there's no

coverage and that can be very effective

and and things can be very alive because

you're never switching to another shot

or another angle. But, you know, in a

comedy like the type I make, a lot of

the issue is

if you're doing something in one shot,

then you can't edit it. You can't

shorten it. You can't fix it. You can't

look at two versions of the scene from

two different takes and use the first

half of one and the second half of the

other uh because there's no edit points.

It's not designed to pick out the best

stuff. And so when you make a choice to

do that, uh, you know, you're taking a

chance and sometimes it pays off in a

big way. But I would always be afraid

I'd get into editing and go, "Oh my god,

this scene is interminable. How do I

shorten it? Can I just jump cut in the

middle to shorten it?" Well, you know

what? If the the whole scene was great,

but there's this one moment where an

actor looks out of it, and you go, "Wait

a second. What's Tom doing?" Uh, and

that would break my heart if I couldn't

use the rest of it. So, I think for me,

I value the ability to manufacture it

and and condense it and punch it more

than how beautiful and alive something

like that can be. Not that I've ever

I've never done it. I I I have at at

times sparingly, but it's an overall

style choice. Uh it's not one that works

with how how I work. Uh you know,

sometimes, you know, you really do know

exactly what you want to do and and then

you make the opening of Good Fellas. uh

and uh or Birdman. Although, I'll tell

you a little secret. There's tons of

edits in Birdman. They just did it with

special effects and they combined all

the performances and everything that you

think was, "Oh my god, that shot went on

for 8 minutes. There's like 27 edits

that you can see uh because they they

did it in post. So a lot of times even

the wer uh is an illusion of a wer and

there are hidden edits because they can

take different takes and glue them

together with a computer.

I'm not trying to

blow your mind visually. I'm trying to

capture

a moment so that you forget that it's a

movie. That's all I really want is to

come up with a coverage that feels

almost slightly

uh voyeristic or like a documentary.

So you do not think about the fact that

I exist. There are great movies where

through the entire movie you're like

Francis Ford Copela is on his game and

and you feel his vision and his hand and

and there are amazing movies like that.

But that's not what I usually try to do.

I I I think I'm working in a tradition

of people like Hal Ashby or Robert

Alman.

So, it it is a little bit sloppy,

hopefully in an elegant way, and uh it

it makes you feel like you're just

listening in on something.

Uh, and how I tend to do that, it it's,

you know, it has to do with just sizes

of frames and, you know, angles of of

people. But I I am able to to shoot uh

with multiple cameras a lot of the time

uh when the cinematographer is game and

choreograph it so that the the actors

know that they can play and be sloppy.

So, a lot of my work is about sloppiness

and overlapping because if you shoot

just one person

and then you turn around and shoot the

other person, you're you're creating the

illusion that they were talking to each

other and it it can work very well.

That's how most movies are done. But I

do like to

retain the real interaction with both

people at the same time whenever it is

is possible because I think some of the

rhythm of that is very hard to

manufacture after the fact. You know the

overlaps

um the way uh actors and actors surprise

each other. You know, if an actor just

does it a little with a little more

anger, then the uh the other actor might

just

reel back a little bit more. And if you

can find a way to shoot with multiple

cameras, you can capture some of those

subtleties. And if you shoot them

separately, you might be able to build

that. But it's not always as good.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes there's magic

in those associations that that you

don't even plan for. But that's one way

I like to protect the performances.

It is difficult to know when you have

it. Uh you know that is you know the

scariest question of the day. Do we have

it? Should we move on?

You know for me I'm not you know a two

take person. And I like to get a whole

bunch of stuff, but usually when you're

watching the scene, you have to have

some part part of your brain that's

watching it as if it's finished and it's

the movie. And you watch the scene and

every once in a while you go, "Well, if

that was the whole scene, I'd be happy.

I I I would like that." And that's just

your gut instinct about uh if if it's

working or not. But then I do the thing

I mentioned earlier, which is I think if

I hated this in editing, what will I

think I screwed up? And I'll get some

extra material. Maybe it's extra jokes

to make it funnier. Maybe it's more

dramatic moments if I feel like it's

getting too silly and I need it to be

grounded. Whatever I think I might be

wrong about, I try to get something to

cover my ass with in case I'm I'm wrong.

There are certain scenes, you know, this

has got to be a hilarious scene. This is

the only reason why why we're here.

We're talking about the uh you know, the

alligator [ __ ] house and the rusty

trombone. So, I'll I'll shoot 60 jokes

uh because I know if this doesn't tear

the house down, I'm just going to cut

the whole scene out. And and that's part

of of uh of time management and part of

knowing when you're when you're done.

And and you never know. You always leave

and go, ah, should I have gotten one

more of that one? But if you use your

time well, hopefully you're not so

rushed that you can't leave every scene

with a sense of, "Yeah, we got a lot of

good stuff there. Hopefully uh hopefully

it works in editing.

When I'm preparing for a shoot day, what

I try to do is uh read all the scenes

over the night before and remember why I

wrote them. And that really is the the

part of it uh that is easiest to get

lost, which is why are we here? what is

this scene about? How does it serve the

story? How does it serve the character?

And you do have to take a breath because

you're so busy when you're directing

that uh you're exhausted and you can get

negligent. So, I'll just say, "Okay, I'm

going to sit and I'm going to read this

section of the script again, read the

scene and and judge it. How is it? Did

we nail it? Is this one of the weak ones

that I have to make new stuff up on the

spot to save or am I going to be a

little more religious about shooting the

scene the way it was written? Then uh

usually during visits to the location

before the shooting day, I will have a

sense of how I'm going to shoot it. So,

I'll get in the space and I will, you

know, in very uh simple uh terms say I

think they're they're sitting here or

she walks in here, they talk there, she

punches him in the face, he falls, she

walks out that door. Uh and then I try

to uh to block it in my head and figure

out what those shots would be to cover

that on the day that we shoot. Sometimes

that changes. Sometimes you get the real

actresses and actors in and and you say,

"Oh, that doesn't work because he's too

tall and when he falls, he would hit the

table wrong and that door actually isn't

the door outside. That's that's a

janitor's closet." And then you realize

that none of your plans work. Um, so

we'll do it again on the day, but

usually I I have roughed it in in my

head. I'm not someone that has like a

list of the shots. I don't write write

it out. I generally have that in my head

and I talk about it with the

cinematographer. Probably out of pure

laziness. Uh I it it it's much better to

have a piece of paper, you know, master

two shot tire of two shot clean singles

overs different angle as they exit. You

could write that out. I I I do not do it

out of arrogance. Out of pure arrogance.

Uh, I I just I get lazy. But but that is

a helpful thing to do.

Here's the thing you're trying to figure

out. That's that's difficult. How long

is it going to take to shoot this? So,

every day starts off with a conversation

with the the first AD and the

cinematographer. This conversation

happened in prep as well, which is how

many scenes are we shooting today? How

much time do we think each scene will

take? How long will it take to move to

wherever we have to go between scenes?

So, what I do, and this is one area that

I'm not uh lazy in, I will say, "Okay,

we all get to set at 7 and we are going

to attempt to be shooting by 8:30. We

will finish the first scene by 11:30. We

will shoot this shorter scene before

lunch. We break for lunch. We're back

rolling again at 2:30. I have three

hours for the first scene and uh two

hours for the second scene. And then I

need one shot uh establishing this space

uh you know like an exterior shot of the

building to end the day. and I'll have a

very strict timetable

uh and I tend to try to uh hit my marks

there. There are some directors that are

just kind of spacey and you know out of

the blue they'll do 111 takes of the

first shot and now it's noon and the

whole day collapses and then they just

rush the rest of the day and then they

do two takes on the next 11 things

because they forgot and did 90 takes on

the first one. That's a dumbass way to

work. So you don't want to do that.

you're, you know, you're spreading your

time thoughtfully and in your head you

you might say, you know, the first scene

is well written. I probably only need

four takes. I bet we could do that fast.

We can get that whole scene in two

hours. The second scene, we need to

improvise a lot. I need them to to play

with it and and make it their own and

and come alive. So, I'm gonna do a lot

of takes. So, I'm going to take four

hours on the second scene. And that's

really what it is. you're you're

basically uh trading time so that you

can finish your your 12-hour day on

time. So, it's really important that you

get a feel for how long you take to to

be happy with what you've shot.

I think that you need to be responsible.

You know, early in my career, I worked

on a movie and the director was very

willing to uh go into overtime or go

over budget, and it really was a theory

of whatever it takes to make this great.

Uh, and I found it very stressful. So,

in the writing and in pre-production, I

try to make sure I have enough money, I

have enough time, and I have everything

I need to make this movie. And what I

agreed to do, I'm going to do. So, if I

say to the studio, I can shoot this

movie in 40 days. I'm not thinking in

the back of my head, but I'll make him

give me 47 once we get shooting. Like, I

I don't like to work that way. I I like

to be done in 40 days. I think it's

wrong to say that that you can get a

certain amount of work done in 12 hours

when you can't. And so, there's a lot of

uh people that they'll shoot 15, 16, 17

hour days. And it's very uh dangerous.

It's very dangerous to the crew. Uh you

know, people have injuries on set.

People get in car accidents. Uh and

people have gotten killed on the way

home because they're so tired. And

that's a result of bad planning in

addition to disrespect of the crew. You

should know before you shoot a movie if

you're going to be able to make your

days. And it's very irresponsible to set

up a situation where people are, you

know, shooting 16, 17 hours a day. That

just means you [ __ ] up with your

schedule and you don't understand how

much you can get done. Not that it never

happens. Everybody has like a, you know,

moments on a shoot where you're screwed

and you're like, "Yeah, we got to finish

the day." Uh, but it really shouldn't be

how the movie works. And on those days,

it's very important uh as a producer to

say to everybody on the crew, uh we'll

pay for your cab home. You know, what do

you need to be safe? Because there's

nothing more important on a set than the

safety uh of everybody working on a

movie. And you also want to create an

environment

uh where everyone feels like they can

come forward with a complaint if they

think the set isn't safe. Uh, you know,

the same goes for sexual harassment,

which a lot of people have been talking

about. You want to create an environment

where everybody feels like if they have

a problem and they go to the producers,

they will be heard and taken care of.

Um, and all of that is part of your

general responsibility

as a filmmaker and a producer of a a

movie or or a TV show. You know, you

don't want to be a, you know, live some

lie that that you have what you need to

do this when you don't. That creates a,

you know, a panic that that fills every

moment. It's just stress every every

second of it. And how you deal with it

is you

you realize where you can be ambitious

and where you can't.

When we made uh Pineapple Express, which

was not an expensive movie, we knew we

didn't have the money for a lot of

action scenes. So, we had to pick our

moments. So, if you watch that movie,

you'll realize the opening scene is 12

minutes of two guys smoking pot. And one

of the reasons that that is is because

we thought if there's 12 minutes of them

just sitting on a couch smoking pot.

Well, we've already uh you know filled a

big hunk of our movie and that didn't

cost us almost anything and that saves

us money

to put in something that's difficult to

shoot. You know, there were limited

amount of days and funds. So, if you

watch Pineapple Express, you'll notice

that there's only two action scenes in

the entire movie. There's a a car chase

scene where James Franle's foot goes

through the windshield. Uh, and then

there's a big shootout and they blow up

the barn at the end. That's it. Uh,

that's why there's tons of scenes of

stone people talking for a really long

amount of time because we we didn't have

the money to have more set pieces than

that. And uh, and you know what? No one

notices. No one walks out of that movie

and goes, I wish it had more action. You

know, we tried to come up with creative

solutions to having a limited budget.

Uh, and that's also the the work uh of

the filmmaker is to say, you know what,

this isn't Jurassic Park, so what cool

things can we do with this amount of

money? And uh and I'm sure when they

have a lot of money, they think, "What

cool things can we do with our budget of

$270 million?"

I think that uh

the spirit of uh of your work can come

through in the most lowfi way. There are

people who are just great with a camera

that you could give them

a Canon camera. You know, Jody Lee

Lipes, who is the cinematographer of

Tiny Furniture, he made a $50,000 movie

look like a multi-million dollar movie

just with the same camera you probably

have at home right now. And there are

people who are great at that. And there

are other people like me. I still don't

know what the lenses do. I have to hire

people to explain everything to me. I

have no idea. I can look at the monitor

and go, "That looks wrong." and make

adjustments, you know, backwards. But I

don't know. I don't understand any of

the technology. I still don't know what

an f-stop is. I don't know what the

lenses do. I I I try. I I get through

it. So, you can succeed both ways. You

could look at it this way. You can make

a hilarious

short film, uh, you know, with Jimmy

Kimmel that has incredible production

values, but you also, if you went out on

the street and just rambled around with

Jimmy Kimmel, uh, with your phone, there

might be so much charm at the raw,

rough, crappy sound, bad light version

that it's just as funny as the thing you

spent all the money on. Uh sometimes you

could, you know, you could make that

serve you there. You know, horror movies

that they're meant to look like crappy

home videos. So depending on your skill

level and if you have an idea that can

make, you know, lowbudget serve you, uh

there's an enormous amount of ways to do

something incredible that don't require

great technical ability. Obviously, you

should learn how to do it. I should

learn how to do it. It's getting late.

Uh but but but there is a way to do

stuff that's very bold and funny and

original uh uh e even without that

ability and and in a way that costs

literally zero dollars.

When I first watched movies, I I didn't

think I was going to go into movies. Or

maybe I thought I would be a star. I

didn't think I would make movies,

so I didn't pay that much attention to

them. The movies that touched me when I

was a kid were movies like Diner. Uh

Barry Levenson's Diner was one of the

most important movies to me when I was

young. I'm not I'm not sure why. I just

related to young people trying to figure

out what kind of job they were going to

get, what kind of relationship they

wanted, how they would handle their

friendships. I also like the

improvisational feel to the dialogue. I

had heard that Paul Riser went with a

friend who was reading for the movie

Diner and he was just [ __ ] around

waiting for his friend and somebody

said, "Why don't you come in and read?"

and he got the part and there wasn't

really much of a part in the script but

they would just have him in scenes and

let him improvise with the other actors

and that fascinated me. What the script

isn't locked? people just make it up.

And it planted some seed in my head. And

then I slowly learned that certain

movies were made that way where there

there would be a script, sometimes a

great script, sometimes a not really

finished script, and the actors and

actresses would be a part of the process

of of fleshing out the scenes and the

characters.

I always

uh you know thought about Paul Riser

saying you gonna eat that sandwich? I

mean if you're not gonna eat it I'd eat

it. But are you going to eat it? Like

that you know you know that might be

ground zero for everything I've ever

done was Paul Riser saying you're going

to eat that sandwich.

How we use uh

additional alternative jokes on a set is

usually very simple.

We will create a document of every

additional joke we've ever had on a

scene. So if it's the toasting scene

from Bridesmaids,

if in all the drafts there were a lot of

other jokes that got cut for all sorts

of reasons, we'll just take everything

we ever cut out and put it in one dock.

And then maybe from rehearsals and

improvs, we have another 10 jokes that

didn't make it in the script, but we

thought were kind of funny. Let's not

forget those ideas.

Then before we get to set,

Chris and Wig and Annie Mumbalo might

sit down and write some extra alts just

so we have some. And then we'll

rehearse.

And after uh the director Paul Feige

rehearses everyone,

there's a moment where you know

whoever's around uh mainly Kristen and

Annie will will sit and or sit with

someone like Paul Lael and go, "All

right, let's write some more." And now

you've got this mega document. And then

usually the director,

you know, Paul Fig in this case will

take a highlighter and go, "Out of these

60 toasts, I like these 12.

And then we start shooting. So the first

few takes might be exactly the script.

And then once we like the scripted

version, we will say, "Okay, let's do

some looser versions." And we may not

feed them a lot of these ideas, although

maybe they've looked and remembered some

of them. And then we'll just let them

play for a few takes. And then we might

say, "Okay, just go as long as you can

go." And then they might go back and

forth a toast for 10 minutes. And then

we might look at the sheet and go,

"Okay, we're going to yell these out to

you." So Paul might yell the ones he

wants to definitely get. And they might

just repeat them. Uh and then when we

feel like we're we're bursting at the

seams, we'll say, "All right, let's move

on to the next scene." We don't do this

often. Uh, it's not for every scene, but

there are certainly comedic scenes where

you're aware that

it would be great to go into editing

with a lot of choices. And so, they

might hit editing and they've got 40

toasts. And then you're saying, "Okay,

we have time for maybe five from each

one." And you then we're just picking

which were the best ones. And how can we

create a rhythm where this feels not

like an improv festival but like a

thoughtfully constructed scene.

The scene in the hotel room was

partially improvised but also uh

rehearsed a lot. You know, we we talked

a lot about how when you're a parent,

you you sometimes leave your kids with

your parents or a babysitter for a night

and suddenly you get along great and you

think it's all the kids fault and you

think this is us. This is what we're

like without the tension of making all

these decisions for our children. So, we

wanted to create a getaway scene in the

middle of the movie to remind the

audience that they are an incredible

couple, but they're under so much

modern-day pressure and they approach

problems differently that they wind up

in conflict, but without all of these

issues. This is what they act like. This

is how perfect they are for each other.

This is how they get along. So, the idea

was they would go to this hotel and they

would eat uh marijuana edibles of of

some type and they would have a very

honest conversation. And to shoot a

scene like that, I I feel like it's very

helpful to rehearse it and do

improvisations in rehearsal. take notes

and then shoot it as scripted and then

really let them play and see where they

go and see if they can surprise each

other and in a weird way capture magic

between the actor and the actress. Like

can you know separate from the script,

separate from anything else, can they

actually find that joyful place with

each other? So, it's not a performance

that there actually is a connection

happening on screen that makes each

other laugh that feels like like love.

How much are we supposed to eat?

I don't know. I think like six or seven

cookies, right?

Plus, it's old. It probably has lost

some of its

potency.

Mhm.

You know,

we should have sex more.

I mean, like, girls have it so easy. You

just show up with your sexual organs and

you're good to go. All the pressure is

on the guys. It's

true. And I look at guys like like I

look at a guy like Prince and you know

that guy [ __ ]

Yeah.

I know I don't [ __ ] like Prince.

Prince can [ __ ] I [ __ ] like David Schw.

I you know I [ __ ] like Ross from

Friends.

So, there's a scene where they're eating

dinner and they're talking uh to Ma's

character about doing activities that

don't involved technology.

Now, this wasn't a well-ritten scene. We

knew the area we wanted to be in, but

quite frankly, the scene was terrible.

And what we wound up doing was

uh guided improvisation.

We were having these types of debates

with Ma all the time. So we knew if we

just had the debate for real, it would

be funny. And we knew Ma was really

funny and would know what we were going

for. So

we started having uh Leslie and Paul

riff on all of the activities that she

could be doing. You could be outside

playing with a stick. You could take a

stick and roll a a tire down the street.

And Ma, you know, without being told,

was just like, I'm not going to play

with sticks. I'm not going to play with

tire or whatever else she said. And

what's interesting about that scene is

that Ma really got mad. She

seemed to forget that we were shooting a

scene. Most of her stuff is from one

take where she genuinely got irritated

uh with Leslie and Paul in the way at

that time she would get irritated with

us when we asked her to get off of her

phone and play outside and ride a bike

around. Uh, and so it captures the

actual spirit of a of a very real

confrontation, which is parents think

our kids are going to be nuts if they

don't do what we did, which is just

wander the streets on a bike uh, and

walk around the woods. And kids think

you have no idea what my reality is, and

I'm totally fine. And you think

I'm falling apart because of the phone,

but actually I'm great.

You're on the computer too much as it

is. You need to get outside more. Do

some playing outside.

Yeah, you can build things out. You

could build a a fort outside.

What?

Yeah, build a fort. Play with your

friends and have

make a fort outside

and do what?

Have little

Do what in the fort?

When I was a kid, we used to build tree

houses and play with sticks.

Nobody plays with sticks.

You and Charlotte can have a lemonade

stand.

Play kick the can.

Look for dead bodies.

That's fun. That's fun to do.

Get a tire and then just take a stick

and run down a street with it.

Nobody does that crap. It's 2012.

You don't need technology.

No technology.

Charlotte, put that down.

I don't need to be monitored all the

time on the computer. I don't do

anything bad.

Nobody said you were bad.

I don't do things I'm not supposed to. I

don't illegally download music. I don't

look at porn like Wendy.

She is up to no good. She's not allowed

to come over here anymore.

What's porn?

No, she said corn. So, in that

particular scene that we did a lot of

improv and while they're improvising,

I'll yell out things. It's almost like

I'm a third actor in the scene and I'll

listen and and yell out m say this quick

and and and while keeping the scene

going and it ultimately turned into, you

know, a really funny scene where we also

could accent Iris who's somewhat

oblivious to the argument and just

making jokes and using her phone to act

like she has monkey mouth. Uh but at the

root of it is a very real concern which

is are we destroying our

What we're going to do now is look at an

example of how a scene changes from a a

draft to its final version.

So, this is a scene in uh Knocked Up,

and it's the scene where

Seth and Katherine are having

dinner, and she tells him that she's

pregnant.

So,

I'm going to read to you

uh what the script is and then what it

became.

So, in this earlier draft,

it says, "Uh,

Ben, I brought you here to tell you

something. I think I'm pregnant." And

Ben says, "Sweet. I guess

congratulations are in order." And she

says, "It's yours."

And he says, "What?" And she says, "You

are the father." And he says, "What the

[ __ ] How did this happen?" I don't

know. Are you sure it's mine? Yes. I

don't do it that often. Well, you did it

with me after like five [ __ ] seconds,

and I'm not even that good-looking.

How could this happen? I don't know. I

thought you wore a condom. I was going

to, but you told me not to. That's not

true. Yes, I was putting the condom on

and then you kept pushing me to hurry up

and then you said just do it already. I

didn't mean just do it without a condom.

I just meant hurry up. Well, you didn't

stop me.

I was so drunk I couldn't tell that you

didn't have one on.

What? You just thought it was the

thinnest condom on Earth? What? Did you

think I was wearing a condom made out of

penis skin?

So that's the draft from April

14th, the table read draft. Okay.

Anyway,

now I'm going to read you with my acting

skill what that became. So, I have

something I really need to tell you.

It's kind of why I called you here. Here

it goes. I'm pregnant.

[ __ ] off. What? What? I'm pregnant with

emotion with a baby. You're the father.

I'm the father. Yes. How the [ __ ] could

this happen? I don't know. I thought you

were wearing a condom. No.

What? I wasn't. Why not? Because you

told me not to. What are you talking

about? What am I talking about? You told

me not to. I did not tell you not to

wear a condom. Here's what happened.

Okay, I'll give you a playbyplay of my

memory. I almost had the condom on my

dick. It was on the cusp and then you

said just do it already. I didn't mean

do it without a condom.

I meant do it like hurry up. Like get

[ __ ] going.

Well, I assumed you're wearing a patch

or like a dental dam or one of those

[ __ ] butterfly clicks or something

like that. It's like saran wrap. It's

disgusting. Okay. But I thought you had

one. Why the [ __ ] didn't you stop me

once we started?

I don't know. I couldn't tell that you

didn't have one on. Obviously, I was

drunk.

Was your vagina drunk? Do you think it's

the thinnest condom on earth I have on?

I'm a [ __ ] inventor. I mean, a dick

skin condom. He hollowed out a penis and

put it on. What the [ __ ]

And scene.

You also got to see a little half Seth

impression there. So, what uh is the

difference? I guess uh is the question.

So, uh, hopefully what you can tell

from that pretty impressive stage

reading is that the original draft had

all of the key moments in it. And then

when we shot, we used a combination of

uh alternate lines

and improvisations

to take those basic ideas and allow uh

the uh actor and actress to really have

a moment. They knew what they needed to

hit, but they also were allowed to make

it their own. They were allowed to

actually have the confrontation.

And we did, you know, a bunch of takes

of that. And after every take, you know,

we feed uh both of them ideas and we

tell them, hey, this area seems like

it's funny. You can go farther here or

there. But a lot of it is that they

develop their own rhythm based on

actually living the moment. You know, we

knew that when

she said, "I'm pregnant." and we wanted

to have Seth react in a funny way. So,

in the script, he just says, "What?" And

the final version, he says, "Fuck off."

Uh, which is a unique way to respond to,

"I'm pregnant." Uh, then he has a second

joke, which is

with emotion,

which we almost used as the only joke.

I'm pregnant with emotion. And we found

that there was a way to say [ __ ] off

what with emotion. Uh so we doubled it

uh there. And then there's a there's a

lot of uh extra language that's just

meant to sound like the way people talk.

So

if she says with a baby you're the

father. And he repeats I'm the father.

Yes. How the [ __ ] could this happen? So

we're trying to use the the flow that

would happen in real life. In real life,

information doesn't happen that crisply.

That's why it's fun to improvise a

little bit because in real life, people

are like, "What? Huh? I I don't get it."

Like, that's how people talk. They don't

just say the important information.

Sometimes they babble and stammer and

say the same thing twice. That's why I I

like to use multiple cameras and and see

if they can fall into a natural comic

rhythm. And when you have people as

funny as Katherine and Seth, you know

they're going to do some dance that you

couldn't think of when you're home alone

at night in your underwear imagining how

this would sound. The other line that's

interesting is uh she says, "I couldn't

tell that you didn't have one on.

Obviously, I was drunk." And he says,

"Was your vagina drunk? Did you think

it's the thinnest condom on earth I have

on? I'm a [ __ ] inventor. I made a

dick-kinned condom. He hollowed out a

penis and put it on. What the fuck?" So

that is the, you know, the more colorful

version of uh the scripted line which

was

what you just thought it was the

thinnest condom on earth. What did you

think I was wearing? A condom made out

of penis skin. Now it's basically the

same idea of a ridiculous joke. I know

it's a ridiculous joke, but

it works because it's so weird and

silly, but it is coming out of someone

that is in a crazy panic at this

information and he's so angry that he

doesn't know what to do. He, you know,

now they're fighting about who made the

mistake. Was the mistake that he didn't

wear a condom? was the mistake that he

misinterpreted

what she said and got rid of the condom.

You know, whose fault is this? And all

of this frustration comes out in this

weird comedic run about how maybe it was

a condom that was a penis hollowed out

made out of human human skin. So, what

Seth did there is he just made it more

colorful and weird and longer, but it

works because in uh in this, you know,

awful moment, he's losing his mind. He's

melting down and that's the character.

He's in over his head and he speaks the

way a young immature man would speak.

So,

uh, so that's part of why we try to hire

actors and actresses who have the

ability to make these kinds of

adjustments. So, I do my best with the

script, but I always want people around

me that I think maybe they can top it. I

have no pride about it. I uh don't care

who comes up with a better line. I just

want the scene to be as good as it can

be. and I'm looking to uh collaborate

with amazing comic minds so I could say

this is what I'm thinking. What else can

we layer on this? How can we make this

scene work better? And you you you want

to create enough space that magic can

happen. If you have a good script and it

all makes sense, you could shoot it a

couple of times and then say, "Okay,

let's play with it and let's let's live

it. Let's see what happens." And what's

interesting about allowing actors to

improvise is when they improvise, they

listen differently. If an actor knows

what line is coming, they're basically

trying to be in the moment and figure

out how to react to a line they know is

coming. When they improvise, they have

to really listen because they have no

idea what's coming. And I feel like the

acting sometimes gets much better

because there's a little electricity and

fear about the fact that people don't

know exactly where it's going to go. And

sometimes the acting is better even when

both actors decide not to change

anything, but just the fact that they

might puts everybody on their toes.

While I'm shooting, I ask the editors to

send me what they're cutting.

Certainly for the weekend, I I'll say,

"Send me everything you've cut uh during

the week." But if I'm in the mood, I

might say at the end of every day, send

me what you cut today. So I can get a

feel, especially at the beginning of a

shoot, of what the movie uh uh is is uh

is becoming.

Sometimes you watch it and you and you

think, "Oh my god, this this totally

works. I'm so excited. This is the

vibe." And you can follow that. Or you

might notice something, you know, that

an actress does and and and go, "Oh, oh,

she's so funny doing this. Okay, I see

how that's going to affect that." Or you

might think, "Oh, this seems really

down. I got I got to lift that up a

little bit. This is this this

performance is a little depressing." Uh,

and that's something that that you're

that you're learning by watching not

just the dailies, uh, as much as you can

watch them, but watching cuts. Then I

also try to, you know, give notes to the

editor, certainly every weekend on

everything they cut that week so that

they can be fixing things. So when I

wrap,

the editor might take a few weeks to do

all the notes that they've already

gotten during the shoot and then the

first time I see it, uh, it it will be

stronger than if I hadn't given any

notes.

The first time you see a movie is

usually painful because it's just a big

mess and it's not what you want it to be

and you haven't found it yet. Hopefully,

there's scenes in it where you think

that's the movie. Let's make it all as

good as that. So, say a movie is 85

scenes. Usually, you watch it and

there's 20 you love and 20 that are okay

and 20 that are not that good and 20

that are terrible. And how I approach it

is I say, "Let's go straight to the

scenes that make me want to kill myself

and let's just lift those up so I don't

want to kill myself." Then I might say,

"Now, let's fix the last 20 minutes. I

just want to know if the ending will

work because if the ending doesn't work,

we're [ __ ] So we we might as well

know that because if it doesn't work, we

have to reshoot something. So let's jump

to the third act and let's fix that."

And I'll do that with a few key things

like here are the things that if I

didn't do a good job, we are in big

trouble. For instance, the end of train

wreck is this uh cheerleading sequence.

So early in editing, I'll say, let's

look at the cheerleading se sequence.

Are we okay? Can we get out of this

movie? Does does it work? Is it funny?

Is it emotional? Do you buy it? Um, and

and then I, you know, breathe a sigh of

relief when I know that. And then I

might say, "Okay, what about the scene

where the intern uh and Amy Schumer are

fooling around? Is it creepy? Is it

funny? Is it too dark? Is it hilarious?

Let's look at it." And we'll Okay. Wow,

that came out great. We're good. We're

good. and I'll go to my my

you scenes of biggest concern and make

sure they're they're strong and what we

wanted them to be because there are

always scenes that you think that's a

great scene but there is a chance that

we didn't execute it properly or it's a

great idea for a scene but when you

shoot it it doesn't really work the way

you thought it worked and and you you're

basically doing that for every scene in

the movie you're remembering what you

thought would happen when you wrote it

and seeing if you can you if you can get

it to to that in some way. Oh, I thought

that was going to be the big laugh

scene. It's nuts. Maybe what can we do?

Can it become a dramatic scene? Maybe we

remove all the jokes and pretend it was

drama.

Now, the testing process

basically means that you tell people in

a mall that they can see the movie for

free and 300 people show up and they

watch the movie. They don't know

anything about it when they walk in.

They're given cards to fill out after

the movie where they rate it and are

asked specific questions about the

movie. And then they usually keep about

a dozen people, I I think 20 people uh

to have a conversation with someone who

runs a focus group about the movie. Uh a

lot of people don't like this process. I

think people who do dramas uh or more

serious-minded fair wonder if this is a

helpful process or not because a lot of

times material that's challenging or

unhappy

uh doesn't test well because people get

uncomfortable or sad or or their belief

systems are challenged and they might

not say oh my god no country for old men

A+

so it's not always the best way to

approach your editing. eding process.

But with a comedy, if it doesn't get

laughs, it's not working. And I remember

James Brooks said to me once, you know,

if if the crowd doesn't like it, you're

failing. They're supposed to like it.

They're supposed to track it. They're

supposed to love these characters.

They're supposed to understand the

story. They're supposed to laugh at the

jokes, and you're supposed to get big

laughs in the place you're intending to

get big laughs. And and he embraced

that process. Um especially at table

reads at the critic. He just embraced.

Let's just see if people are laughing.

Now, what information can you get from

it? You can get,

do you understand what just happened? Do

are you tracking the story? Do you

understand the story? Do you like the

story? Uh, does the ending work for you?

Do you like certain characters? Which

characters do you like best? Which car

characters do you not like? Why don't

you like them? Sometimes they hate a

character that they're supposed to like

and you have to try to figure out what

mistake you've made. With Knocked Up, at

the first test, they didn't like any of

the friends because I put in some very

aggressive jokes, a lot of pot smoking

jokes in the first three minutes. And

for some reason, the whole crowd was

like, "Fuck these guys." And and and

they couldn't win them back. And then I

changed just a few jokes at the

beginning and suddenly they loved them.

It it it was really about how we

introduced them.

When you get into testing and editing,

you know, sometimes, you know, jokes go

too far and you're you're trying to find

the line. So, when we did Forgetting

Sarah Marshall, there's a scene where

Jason Seagull is naked and his

girlfriend breaks up with him and he he

he nervously uh u uh

loses the towel, shall we say? Uh and um

uh

people were horrified

uh because it was too long in the first

test. we just left uh we left the male

uh organ on screen too much and people

people would walk out like we would lose

people. People just said that's too much

that's too far and suddenly like 21

people like exit and then the next test

we're like well let's just shorten it.

So instead of like, you know, 20

seconds, let's just do it for 15

seconds, 11 people walk out. And then we

shorten it and we get it down to, I

don't know,

4 seconds. Nobody walks out. People say,

"That's the exact amount of penis I'm

comfortable with." In the movie theater.

At home, maybe it's more, but in the

movie theater, that's what I can handle.

Uh, and that is part of the testing

process. um you know with jokes, you

know what, you know, what is too far,

what's not far enough. Sometimes you

make a movie and you realize, oh, this

isn't going for it hard enough. This

crowd wants us to really uh hit harder

on some of these jokes. They they they

maybe want to be shocked more. Um, when

we did Pop Star, we we were trying to

solve a a couple of story problems and

we also knew we needed uh a big tear

down the house comedy moment at this

moment of the of the story. And uh the

Lonely Island guys wrote this scene uh

in a limousine

where um two members of of the group are

talking and as they're talking women's

are pushing their breasts up against the

window and then a man pushes his penis

up against the window. Uh and uh I

believe the window opens and I don't

remember does he sign the penis? Anyway,

it escalates. it escalates and uh it did

exactly what we wanted it to do. It it

was uh really really funny. We got all

of our exposition out. We heightened the

the conflict between the members of the

group uh and got a big laugh and got to

see a penis.

Now, for me, I like to do a lot of these

tests. Some people will test the movie

three times. I I'll test the movie four

or five times. And I will do something

uh that not a lot of people do, which is

I will cut two versions of the movie.

So, there'll be one version of the movie

that I'm trying to polish and fix and

tighten, but then I might have so much

extra material and alternate jokes that

I might create a Frankenstein version of

the movie where I'm taking big swings.

I'm trying scenes that I think maybe

don't work, but let me just put them in

front of a crowd to see weird jokes that

feel like they will offend everybody,

but I might as well give it one shot to

see if I'm wrong. And then just tons of

other jokes that I just want to see if

any of them are worth putting in what I

call the A cut. So there's the B cut,

which is the Frankenstein monster, and

there's the A cut, which is the one

we're slowly polishing. And always what

happens is you'll show the Frankenstein

cut. It usually doesn't test as well as

the good cut, but every test you'll find

six to 10 jokes that you never thought

would get a laugh that are the biggest

laugh in the entire movie. Just weird

things that you you would never know

were highlights of the movie. And

that's how we slowly lift the quality of

the movie through all of these different

tests. At the same time, we're tracking

emotion and story and pace and

everything else, but

the movie always seems like it's moving

quicker if you think the scene's

hilarious. Nobody ever thinks uh a movie

is slow if they're laughing their ass

off.

A lot of what you're learning in in a

test is

where people are losing interest, where

are they bored, is it too long, uh is

there a dead spot,

uh is the pace appropriate in each

section? Is your your momentum working

properly?

And do the jokes work? And that's a

that's a that's a big one. Let's assume

you have 200 jokes in a movie. You might

test the movie and you get a hundred

laughs. Now you have to figure out what

do you do? Do you remove the places

where you bombed? Now if you shot extra

jokes like we do, you could replace a

100 jokes with a hundred different jokes

or a hundred different performances of

the jokes that bombed. And then maybe

next time you get 150 laughs out of 200.

And then you go, okay, I got 50 to fix.

And maybe some you just remove and

tighten the scene. And others you say, I

got some other alts at other

performances. And now 185 out of 200 are

working. And then for 15, you go, I

don't have a good joke, but what if I

change the dialogue by recording

different lines in post and putting them

on the back of their head? which

basically means if I'm talking to

somebody else, if you don't see my lips,

I can say anything. And if that's the

angle and you're mainly seeing the other

person and not my mouth, you can change

what I said. And uh sometimes you we'll

do that to save a scene. That happened

in Anchor Man. There's a scene where uh

Danny Trijo is a bartender and he's

talking to Ron Burgundy who's drunk in a

bar, depressed that his life is caved in

and he does this very long speech about

women's rights and how we have to

respect women. And when he's done,

Ron Bergen says, "I'm sorry, I don't

speak Spanish."

And I'm pretty sure that was just

something that Adam McCay uh the uh the

co-writer created in post because

sometimes you have a scene and you know

the joke has to come here. This is where

you have to get the laugh and say a

scene is two and a half minutes and

there's no laugh for the last 45

seconds. You realize I have to get a big

laugh somewhere in these last 30

seconds. So, you try your alts, you try

different performances, and then you

might record different jokes uh and and

sneak them in.

I think that it's uh much more common

than people realize to do re-shoots with

comedies. You know, every scene in a

comedy is an experiment. No one knows if

something's funny. You cannot explain

why anything is funny. There's no

science to it whatsoever. So, every time

you tell a joke, it's a you're guessing.

You're you're guessing that it will

work. You know, why, you know, is it

funny, you know, to have, you know, a

sequence in uh the four-year-old virgin

where we see him partying and smoke pot

out of an apple. I don't know why that's

so funny. crowd cheered, but when you're

writing it, you're like, I don't know.

Might be funny to see the 40-y old

virgin smoke pot. He's never done

anything. And then suddenly it's it's

this whole sequence around it. But it's

just a guess that the audience will

enjoy seeing him come out of his shell.

Uh, and but a lot of times you finish a

movie and you the whole movie is an

experiment and you were right 90% of the

time, but that 10% that's not working

will sink the entire movie and you have

to fix it and you have to shoot a few

scenes that that fill in some holes

uh, you know, for the audience. When we

were testing uh Anchorman, we had a very

different story which was a Patty Hurst

inspired uh you know SLA

terrorist group uh plotline and

you know it just didn't function as well

as it should function. There were some

amazing scenes in it uh and some scenes

that there's an argument to be made that

are as funny or funnier than everything

in the movie, but it it didn't really

work as a story. And after testing it,

uh Adam and and Will decided that uh

they could beat it. And we we did a

re-shoot where they wrote a sequence uh

at a at a zoo where they're covering u a

bear story and it would lead to uh

Veronica Corningstone being uh pushed

into the uh the bear enclosure uh by uh

Vince Vaughn's character and and he

would have to save her life. And the

point was he had to save the life of

this woman who was threatening his job

who also he was having this rocky

romance with. And suddenly all of uh the

movie made sense and was more on point.

I I I think uh what was being figured

out was can you make an entire movie

about sexism in the workplace and also

this strange romance where he falls in

love with the woman that uh that

threatens his job. And and that turned

out to be the case. And it it was better

to stay on story than to take uh this

larger left turn into this uh Patty

Hursten inspired story. And and that's

hard sometimes. You you you know,

sometimes you take a big deep breath and

you go, you know, this isn't exactly

right. You know, we should take the time

to rewrite this and fix this. And then

and then they did re-shoots and and now

all of those scenes in the re-shoots

uh are a lot of people's favorite scenes

of uh not just that movie of all time.

and and it's it's definitely worth doing

it.

Sometimes the crowd is wrong and they

might not like something and you might

think, you know what, I don't care that

they don't like that. That's important.

It's they're misinterpreting something

or they're not filmmakers. They don't

understand that the scene they think I

don't need is the reason why the scene

later makes sense. And so you also have

to be aware that there's a limitation to

the filmic intelligence of the audience.

Sometimes they they don't know the story

that well. They haven't read the script.

They So as when they give notes, it's

it's without an understanding of how

it's built. So sometimes the notes are

wrong. And when you've done a lot of

tests, you do get a sense of where they

will mislead you. Because if you give

in, you can ruin your project. And if

you don't give in at times, you can ruin

your project. So you have to really be

in tune with what you're trying to do

and if it's coming out correctly.

And you also you never know. You you

could fight the whole time. Put it

together, watch it, and go, "Yeah, I was

wrong about everything. This is

garbage."

And that's the hard part is for any

creative person, let's say a third of

the time they will have screwed

everything up. There's no one's IMDb

that's 100% great. Everybody, a third of

it, it's not working. I don't care who

it is. Spielberg, Scorsesei,

me. Not that I belong in that list of

three people, but it was nice to say it.

We're missing a third of the

When I was a kid, my grandfather Bobby

Shad had a record label and was an

independent record producer and he was

famous for producing the first Janice

Joplain album. He produced Charlie

Parker and Saravon and Dina Washington

and people like that and was a legendary

music industry figure. So music's always

been

so important to me and a part of the

film making process that I I like almost

as much as any other part. So early on I

try to think about what what the sound

of the movie is. I start trying to think

about what songs would fit where. A lot

of times they change but I'm thinking

about it

and songs, you know, they set the tone.

I remember I was trying to figure out

what would the opening song be in the

40-year-old Virgin. And for a while I

thought it would be Lonely People by

America,

which you probably heard. You probably

are listening to it right now. And then

one day, my wife Lesie Man said, "I

heard the greatest song." Uh, and it was

Joe Walsh,

Land of Illusion,

and she's like, "You have to use that

song." And and it and it works uh so

well. And I had never heard it in a

movie before. And somehow it sets the

the tone of the movie, that song. Also,

little details are important. We we

thought that Stephen Carell's character

Andy Stitzer uh would love the ban Asia.

Just an odd detail that he had a big

poster of Asia and Seth makes fun of the

fact that he's a framed poster of Asia.

And then for the big sequence at the end

where he he's running away on his bike,

uh we play an Asia song. And that was,

you know, uh, a lot of the fun of that

movie was thinking about him as a guy

who was stuck. And because he was stuck,

his musical tastes didn't go past

uh, the 80s. So, at the moment when he

should have had sex, he didn't. And he

also didn't listen to any new music past

that point. And that's how we thought

about it. like this is a guy who who uh

who stopped listening to new music um

when he should have grown up. And so we

use a lot of older songs. We use that

song uh just got lucky which is a great

old ' 80s song that you know a lot of

people don't remember but that they

love. They don't know that they love it

till they hear it and they go I love

that song. I never hear that song. Those

are the fun ones ones that people forget

they love and that aren't overused. But

I have to say the only thing I ever

regret or wonder if I made a mistake

about is music cues. I will wake up in

the middle of the night and I'm not

thinking, "Oh, why' I use that joke?

Why' I do that scene?" I'm going, "Why

did I take the Bon Iver song out and use

the Robert Plant song? Should I have

used a John Lennon song or should I use

Zero Mel?" And those those things haunt

me.

while you're editing, you don't have a

score yet. So, you will take score from

other movies and lay it in

to get a feel for the movie, but one of

the problems with that is sometimes you

fall in love with a piece of score. So

you might have a sequence and you need

to put music under it to edit to just to

find the rhythm and uh say that's a you

know a piece of score from the movie

Poltergeist

and then you you live with it for a few

months and then your composer tries to

replace it and you're like I don't like

what you did. I like poltergeist better

because you just you just you know you

become friends with it in a way and it's

it's very unfair to your composer

because a lot of times you wind up

saying like can you make it sound like

that and they're very offended because

they're they want to have their own uh

creative expression and their own

interpretation of the movie and and to

create a a unique original score. They

don't want to do a copycat to the fact

that uh you you have all this temp score

from the great outdoors and planes,

trains, and automobiles laid into your

movie. The the thing that I do to deal

with that is instead of hiring a

composer to score the movie when the

movie is

done editing, I usually make a deal with

my composer to start scoring the movie

right when I start shooting. So, I will

give them scenes from day one. They

might they might record some some some

songs and and some cues

and and they're not even specific to any

moment in the movie, but they're just

writing, you know, suites of music that

they think are the feel of the movie.

This way when I get into editing, I

could start cutting up those pieces

they've written and temp with my

composer's original music for the movie.

So, I'm not using the score to ET. uh

and and that just requires having a

different deal with your composer. So

that you know they're not working

fulltime for 9 months while you're

editing and shooting, but they come and

go and give you some pieces uh and are

slowly figuring it out as you edit the

movie because a lot of people finish a

movie and then they hand it to someone

and then that person scores it over a

pretty short amount of time. And and and

I think that's a a harder way to do it.

I like the composer to be part of the

editing.

I'm not a big fan of uh scoring comedy.

There are movies that they they they

score it wall to-all with an orchestra

and every emotion that uh the character

is going through, they they they do it

with them. So, it's like a guy's walking

down the street,

sees a pretty girl.

Uh,

and I don't like that that version of

it. I'm trying not to echo what's

happening. I I usually have a more spare

score and I might lightly hit some

emotional moments, but but I I'm trying

to be as delicate as I can. And I don't

think that the comedy uh is helped by

having a partner in in a goofy score. If

that score was a person, uh it would be

a tuba.

So, it's like having a tuba in every

scene with you. You that's not my

favorite way to go. And usually you do

what you do is you show uh the composer

the movie and they start coming up with

themes. It might be, you know, a few

different melodies and sometimes the

theme is for a certain character. You

know, this is uh The 40-y old virgin's

happy melody and this is his sad melody.

You know, what instrument is this movie?

Some movies are just a guy on a piano.

You know, other movies it might be u

Eric Clapton on guitar. It might be a

big orchestra. uh you know you you're

deciding early on you know what is u you

know the the musical style that is uh

setting the the you know the feel for

the movie because it does change

everything that you know the score in a

lot of ways is almost as important as

the movie itself and can completely ruin

the movie uh as well if it's if it's not

working right

When we did Freaks and Geeks in 1999,

uh you know, people didn't use The Who

and Billy Joel and uh The Grateful Dead

in in their television shows. It just

wasn't part of how TV shows were made.

If you watched Manx or Lou Grant or NYPD

Blue, uh you know, you weren't going to

hear a song by XTC. And we were so

excited to do it. We thought, "Oh, this

is so great. No one does this on TV. It

happens in movies a bit. Scorsese does

it, you know, Good Fellas, but we're

going to do it on a TV show now. It's

everywhere. Everybody's doing it. And

and that actually makes me sad because

it's somewhat burnt out. The way they

use music in TV and even how I use music

in TV is done by everybody. Uh and and

it's not as uh exciting as it used to

be. I remember he you'd hear that song

at the end of the Sopranos and there'd

be an incredible episode and then

suddenly he would just drop some obscure

Keith Richard song that would blow your

mind and I don't know if any of those

songs blow anyone's mind anymore because

it's become somewhat generic. During the

last season of Girls, we realized that

and we kept saying how can we not do it

the way that everyone's doing it. So,

for one episode, it ends uh with Adie

Bryan and Alex Karpovsky kissing on a um

merrygoround and there's this weird

creepy merrygoround music and then uh

you see Lena uh in her apartment alone

and it it cuts to credits and we said

let's just stick with the creepy merry

ground music for like several minutes

just cuz we didn't want to cut to

another pop song. And then on the very

last episode of Girls,

it ends with the with Lena and she's

alone and she's breastfeeding and we

said, "You know what? For the last

episode, let's just not go to a song and

let's just hear the baby breastfeeding

for the entire credits." And then she

starts humming a song from earlier in

the show, which was Fast Car by Tracy

Chapman.

And and we thought, "Oh, good. You know,

this is a way to do this. So, it's not

like the way everybody has music. So,

what I'm saying is is the best way to

use music in the future

is to just have uh babies sucking on

nipples in place of Music.

I think brevity is the key. You know, if

if you think about things that you love

after the fact, you could tell them what

it was like in three minutes. You know,

if you leave a great movie and you say,

"Hey, I just saw The Hangover."

you probably can explain it pretty

quickly. And so in a way, you're trying

to reverse engineer that for your pitch.

The worst pitches are long pitches. When

someone comes in and starts giving a

playbyplay and you think this is going

to take 20 to 45 minutes, first of all,

I think they're crazy. I think they've

lost their minds and I want to escape

the room. Sometimes I will tunnel and I

will I will crawl out through the floor.

Um

that's not the way uh to do it. There's

plenty of time for that later. So if if

I said

it's the 40-year-old virgin, he works in

a stereo store. Uh he hides in the back

room away from the women. And one day

all his friends during a poker game

realize that he's a virgin and they

decide to help him lose his virginity.

But when they do, it's a disaster. So we

have about 15 20 minutes of disastrous

dating comedy. And then he decides he

wants to meet someone on his own and he

falls in love with this woman who works

across the street. And now he's in this

heavy relationship with a woman with a

16-year-old kid and all of those

problems. and she's also a grandmother.

Uh, so he goes from no woman to this

incredibly complicated woman and they

decide not to have sex for 20 dates, but

then at around 11, she's like, "Let's do

it right now." And he completely melts

down and almost loses her. So that could

be 90 seconds. So let's say you want to

keep it under five minutes or 10

minutes. that's plenty to explain your

movie. Unless uh you know it's an

incredibly uh complicated spy thriller,

then you shouldn't be watching this

master class because I am not going to

be helpful with the John Lara

spy thriller pitch.

I think that the key to the pitch is not

that you have to tell everyone the story

beats.

You can give them a sense of the story

so that they know you have a handle on

it, but they don't have to listen to all

of it right now. And I always tell

people, you you can pitch a few scenes.

You might pick three or four scenes to

pitch a little on where it sounds funny.

That when you describe a scene, they go,

"Oh, I get why

this is funny." So, with the 40-year-old

virgin, you might say, and then he's in

the poker game and they're saying, "Have

you uh got any crazy sex stories?" And

he says, "Oh, yeah. There was this one

girl and we were going at it. I was

giving it to her." Good.

uh then they can get a sense of what the

comedy is. What is the style of this?

Why are these scenes funny? But you only

need a few scenes explained for them to

understand that you have a comedic take

on why this is funny.

I think that the key to pitching

is you need to find a a way that

describes the project in the way it will

be marketed to the audience because a

lot of times when people are listening

to your idea they're thinking will

people be attracted to this idea? So, if

you said, "I'm going to do Austin Powers

and it's kind of a parody

uh of James Bond movies and this funny

uh variation on action movies and a

certain kind of swinging 60s action

movie that that people made or spy

movies and it's Mike Meyers doing, you

know, you know, this silly character

with big teeth and the joke is he's not

that attractive, but he acts attractive

and

you already get it. I think that was

less than a minute. And if Austin Powers

didn't exist, maybe I just sold it. Um,

but you have to think that the people

you're selling to, as you're talking,

they're thinking, can I get people to

see this if they're watching a twominute

trailer or a 30 second commercial or

just looking at the poster? So you

almost want to pitch it with the main

hooks that they think they need to sell

it. So if I said, "Oh, me and Steve Carl

have this idea. The 40-year-old virgin."

I could just leave the office at that

point. You know, I don't have to go,

"Okay, imagine this. There's a guy. He's

in a tub. He's alone. Who is he?" Like I

I can ruin that pitch for you. I could I

could find a way to not sell that or I

can just go 40-year-old virgin.

When I hear pitches, I I'm usually

engaged by an emotional idea. So when

Camille Nani and Emily say

Camille fell in love with Emily while

she was in a coma, that's when he

realized how much he cared about her. I

I'm I'm there and it feels unique and

original. And then he explains what the

pressures are as an immigrant to

hold on to his culture and how you get

caught between cultures. Uh, you know,

then I realized, oh, there's so much to

this. There's so many layers to this is

very interesting and also it's new. I

haven't seen people talk about this.

There aren't a lot of movies about

Pakistani immigrants. It's a unique love

story because she

is has to be put in a coma. And also the

idea that it's real, it happened to

them. And even though we're going to

fabricate a fair amount of it, they

really care about this. This is their

story. This is their personal love

story. So, I know that they're going to

put everything into it. I I remember

when Jason Seagull told me about

forgetting Sarah Marshall and you know

he talked about you know having this

breakup that sent him spinning out and

he also thought it was a story about

realizing what he did to cause it and

what it would take for him to be better

in a relationship and that this story

was about his failures in his life and

in his career. here and and that seemed

really funny to me, the the level of

misery, how miserable you are after a

breakup and how you climb out of it and

find love again. So, you're trying to

find a way to get your idea across where

they understand it and get excited about

it and and also you're trying to make

them laugh and make them understand what

the emotional life of your story will

be.

It's very helpful to know the end. So if

you can explain that, you know, there is

a happy ending or there isn't a happy

ending.

That tends to help. If you say, "I don't

know what happens. They might live. They

might die. I don't know. I'll figure it

out later." You lose faith with the

studio. But uh you know if if you say if

you're pitching knocked up and you're

saying a stoner guy who's very immature

falls in love with a reporter from the E

channel and you know on a on a first

encounter gets her pregnant. It's

helpful to say at the end

he wins back her trust and they go off

into the sunset with the baby hoping

that it will work that you know then you

you know they then they'll you know get

a basic sense okay I know what this is I

mean you want them to understand so this

is a movie about getting a girl losing

her because you're so immature and then

having to prove to her that you're

worthy of

raised this child with her.

When we pitched Crashing,

Pete Holmes was so terrible at pitching.

For a guy who's hysterical and writes

the hell out of the show, when he would

describe the show, he got philosophical.

So, he wouldn't use humor to explain it.

He explained it intellectually.

This is a story about a man who grew up

in religion and believed in in in the

words of our savior and is an And I'm

like, what are you what's happening? Why

are you talking like this in this

meeting? I'm exaggerating for comedic

effect. But he didn't pitch it as

comedy. He he he pitched it explaining

the underpinnings of it to the

executives and I always give him a hard

time about it and and he laughs because

he just didn't know how to do it before.

So it was a very boring pitch. Uh and

then we had to do more pitches and and

then he realized, oh, I have to be

funny. You know, part of this pitch is

selling myself. I have to in a way let

them know why I'm funny in the way I

talk about this show. Especially if

you're pitching a show for yourself. You

can't pitch it intellectually and hope

they get your personality. You have to

find a way to bring your personality to

that moment. So in a way they're seeing

the show in some way just by listening

to you talk about the show. It's very

important to be comfortable because part

of being in a room pitching someone is

letting them know that you would be fun

to interact with over many years. So, if

you come into a room and you're kind of

creepy or you're quiet or you're super

nervous

or

weird in any way, I think people think,

"I don't want to talk to that person.

Why would I want to talk to her or him?

What a weirdo. And and that is a lot of

it. A lot of show business is do people

want to be around you? So if you're in a

pitch, you're not just pitching your

idea. You're pitching the idea of

hanging out together a lot. And so if

you can be comfortable, if you can find

that place in yourself that's centered,

if you can seem pleasant and fun,

because it's not just about exactly what

you're pitching, it's also about what's

around that. It's about the conversation

before you pitch. people are feeling you

out. Who is this person? Are they uh

smart? Are they nice? Are they funny? Do

they seem like they've got it going on

in some way? So, in addition to pitching

your idea, you're you're also taking a

few minutes to say, "Oh, this is who I

am. Don't you want to collaborate with

me?" And and that's very important. And

sometimes you have to think about how

you present yourself to people.

Pitching is always uh unpredictable

because I've had projects sell at one

place and not another place. You know,

Love is at Netflix. It was rejected by

other places and Pete Home Show crashing

is at HBO, but it was rejected at other

places. So you're really looking for a

studio or a network or a production

company that gets it. So if it gets

rejected, sometimes that's good because

why do you want to be with the place

that doesn't like what you're doing or

doesn't understand it? Uh part of

pitching is is not just begging someone

to hire you. It's you judging them. Do

you get my idea? Because if you don't

really get it, I don't want to sell it

to you because then I got to talk to you

for years and you don't even know what

the hell I'm talking about. I mean, you

could really create a nightmare for

yourself. So, it's also for you to test

them out early in your career.

Obviously, you just want a job, but you

really do want to be aware that you can

get people excited to buy a project who

don't understand it at all and will

force you to change it and screw it up

because they actually never got it.

A lot of comedy for me was about the

fact that I wasn't playing sports and my

friends would go play sports after

school and I would go home and watch the

Mike Douglas show and the Dinosaur Show

and MV Griffin and the Tonight Show and

then later Letterman and I was very into

standard comedians and variety shows and

Steve Martin, Harold Ramos, Stripes,

Ghostbusters. That that was the era.

There was also SCTV and Monty Python.

So, there was a lot of great things

happening in in comedy for me. A lot of

it was about no one else was interested

in comedy, so this could be my thing.

And it was interesting because there was

no competition. And there wasn't even

another kid to talk about comedy with,

but I really had a sense that this is a

job, too. And maybe a job I can get

because no one else wants this job. Now,

it might be different because everybody

wants to do it and a lot of people know

a lot about it. But when I was a kid, if

I wanted to know about Lenny Bruce, I

had to go to the public library and look

up the microfich to read his obituary.

That's the kind of stuff I would I would

do. And I was an animal about it. I just

was completely obsessed. So I think

maybe my first point here if you look at

this part of my uh childhood as a lesson

is uh it is very important to find

what you're interested in and uh pursue

it uh energetically

because it's it is a competition and I

always say to people you know the

hardest working person usually wins. The

lazy people don't get in the door at

all. If you're if you're not obsessed,

you you don't have any shot at all, then

you you know, hopefully you have talents

and hopefully you have some luck. But if

if you're not working harder than

anybody else, just just stop right now.

How should you get in the door? Well,

there's a couple of ways to look at it.

One is

you have whatever job that you can

tolerate and you're making sure you have

enough time for your creative work. So

you might say, "Oh, I work at a store

all day and that pays my bills and then

at night I have time to go to Second

City or UCB or do standup or write." And

you're you're protecting your creative

time. Then there are jobs in the

industry that you can do uh where you

can learn about how movies are made or

how things are developed. There are uh

assistant jobs. You know, I have

assistants and in addition to uh you

know getting uh gold collars from my

dogs, they uh also sit in on all the

meetings and take notes and read every

draft of all the scripts that we're

working on. uh and and sometimes, you

know, that leads to deep involvement and

and uh low-level producing on some of

our projects and then higher level

producing as uh as they evolve. And

there are jobs like that for all sorts

of producers and writers where you're

starting as an assistant and if somehow

you you can show that uh you get the

joke and you're smart and creative uh

you know, people give you more and more

responsibility. There's certainly a

ladder of people who uh aren't writers,

they're executives. And and you know,

one thing there are not enough of in uh

show business are really smart, funny,

talented comedy development executives.

People who are reading scripts, looking

for scripts for people to buy or reading

scripts and giving notes to writers to

help them make their scripts better. And

and that can be a great job. And the

people who do that well have been

incredibly helpful to me over the years.

You you dream of the person that can

read your script and tell you what's

wrong with it uh and have suggestions

that are usable. Um there's a there are

writer assistant jobs and that's uh at

TV shows where you sit in a room with

all of the uh the writers and you're the

person who takes notes and puts all the

changes into the script and uh it's a

very uh workintensive job. But it is the

one job where you're in a room with 10

hopefully very talented writers and you

get to hear the debate about which jokes

to use and which stories to tell and you

see them break stories and so you you

get a real education on how um you know

how to make television. Now if the show

you're working for sucks, you will get a

great education about how to make [ __ ]

But all you do in your mind is you go, I

don't like this show I'm working on, so

maybe I'll do the opposite of everything

that's happening here. And then maybe

it's almost as good an education uh as

working on Atlanta where you would learn

the good lessons.

I think there are probably people that

lose a lot of work because they're just

not good with with people. If you're up

for a television job, a lot of the job

is sitting in a room with 10 or 12

people kicking around jokes. So, if

you're interviewing for a job like that,

even if you have great materials, I I if

if you seem like a drag in that meeting,

people don't hire you. I I would say it

could be half of it is uh whether or not

you're fun in that interview because in

a way, you're creating a friend group

and do I want that person in my friend

group? A lot of times when you write for

a TV show, there'll be 10 people around

a table punching up a script and there's

usually one person that everybody hates.

And they'll call that person the room

killer. And they might hate that person

because all they do is say they don't

like things but never pitch fixes. Or

they might hate that person because

they're they just talk all the time but

not really about what we're doing. Or

they hate that person because they're

complaining about their personal life

all day long. or they have weird eating

habits or they're just actually creepy.

And when you're looking to hire people

for a staff, all you're thinking of is I

don't want to hire a room killer. So, it

is important to think about how you come

across.

It's very important that people think

that you're easy to be around and and

that you overproduce.

So when I used to work at a place like

the Larry Sanders show with a critic and

I was just starting out, I just thought

I don't want to make any waves here and

I want to pitch a zillion jokes and

cause no trouble and be pleasant to be

around. So, if we're pitching jokes to

make a script better, I'm pitching as

much as I can. And I'm in tune to

whether or not the room is enjoying

hearing me talk or not. And if they're

not, I might give it a break for a

little while. And I I'm careful to not

pitch [ __ ] jokes. Uh, but I'm

engaged. I'm paying attention. I'm

trying to be very, very helpful. You

know, there are people in rooms.

They're eating. They're taking a nap.

they're quietly looking at the internet

and they're worthless. So, most

important thing when you're first

starting out is you want to figure out a

way to be the person that you can't get

rid of because they're they're so

helpful that they make everything about

the show work better. You the first job

I ever got, I was hired to write jokes

for the Grammys by Gary Shanley.

And

I got a call from him. I need jokes. I

stayed up all night. I wrote a hundred

jokes. I sent it to him by facts. This

was the first day of the first Gulf War.

I was at the uh Dallas improv. Then the

next day I called him to go over the

jokes and

he loved all the setups. I don't think

he liked that many of the jokes, but he

was able to think of the punchline off

of my setups on a lot of them. And I

realized, oh, this is helpful to him. He

doesn't know that much about all of this

music, but I'm letting him know where

the joke area is. And he's a better joke

writer than me, and it takes him five

seconds to think of a better joke. And

then he asked me if I wanted to come to

New York and be at all the rehearsals

and be on stage backstage during the

show because I had overproduced and

given him a hundred jokes instead of 20

jokes. And I think immediately he he

knew how much I cared. And that's what

you want people to think. Oh, this

person cares and they're not an [ __ ]

Everybody has a different part of the

business that they're interested in. You

know, for me,

I wasn't sure what the pace of what I

did would be.

Early in my career, I would read about

people like James Brooks and Cameron

Crowe and how they would spend years

writing one script and then they'd make

that script. they might spend four years

on one script and then make that movie.

And uh I attempted that with Owen Wilson

and we wrote this movie together in the

90s and I thought, well, that's the one

I'm going to make. And I spent years on

it and then nobody wanted to make it.

And I thought I just wasted years of my

life assuming someone would want to make

this. And I think at that moment I

thought I need to have more uh pots

boiling

I in order to get something done. I if

uh if I if I'm not working on a few

things simultaneously

there's a good chance I will go through

long periods where nothing will will get

made. So at all times I'm trying to

write something and I'm trying to

produce something and there are a few

things going. Uh but it it is smart to

spread your bets across the table. You

can write a movie and a pilot and write

some stand-up jokes and do a podcast and

that is in a lot of ways the modern

comedy

career for a lot of people. You see

Michelle Wolf and she's on the Daily

Show and she's a brilliant standup

comedian and you, you know, you see Jeff

Garland and he does standup and he's on

the Goldbergs and he makes movies and

directs movies and there's a lot of

people who have found a way to wear many

hats because they are all related in

some way. You know, for me, I'm proud of

the work we did on Freaks and Geeks. I'm

proud of the work I did with everybody

afterwards, but I'm probably most proud

of the fact that

uh in in quiet and not so quiet ways, I

implored everybody to learn additional

skills to survive in show business

because if you don't have a job, it's

very helpful if you can write yourself a

job or produce or direct yourself a job.

And a lot of the the cast has found ways

to do that. And I always encourage

people to do that is that you don't want

to just audition and pray a a director

recognizes your talents. That is part of

the business and part of the business

that you can't avoid if you want to act.

But at the same time, if you have uh the

interest in creating your own projects

as an a writer or a producer or a

director, you really should do it. It

makes life much more much easier if when

you have nothing to do, you can say,

"Well, I guess I'll write on write on my

script today because uh I haven't gotten

an acting job in 11 months." And then

maybe it comes out great. And and you

get to to act in that. So, the more

things you can be good at, the more

chance uh you're not unemployed.

A lot of times you have to do notes you

don't agree with until you become

successful.

It's very difficult to reject a note

from the people who are paying for your

project. And that becomes a delicate

dance and is very much about finding

collaborators uh and studios and

networks uh where you like the person

who's giving you notes and you feel like

I found someone that understands what

I'm trying to do. So you can have a

healthy collaboration. But when you're

just trying to pay your rent and get any

job, a lot of times you wind up getting

notes from people that you don't respect

and and you have to decide how much you

want to fight because if you take

someone's notes and they're bad and your

thing comes out bad, you're not going to

get picked up or your movie is not going

to be a hit. So there is a

a very complicated

interaction happening there because

you will fail if you make something

badly. But sometimes if you reject a

note, it will make that person hate you

and then they'll make a point of giving

you 30 more. and and so so figuring out

how you want to deal with that in your

creative life is a is a big

decision. Early in my career,

I was talking to uh one of the people

that ran in Living Color

uh and I was about to do the pilot to

the Ben Stiller show and he said to me,

"Don't take any note you don't agree

with because if your pilot comes out

terrible, when they don't pick it up,

they won't apologize for giving you bad

notes. You have to go down with your

ship. you at least have to get it right

and then you'll succeed or fail. I

didn't understand what what he was

talking about. So when people gave me

notes, I would just say no. I didn't

realize that there was a a human

relationship there and I didn't

understand that when you reject people's

notes.

They bas basically think you're calling

them an idiot. And when people think

they're being called an idiot, they tend

to hate you. And then when they hate

you, they try to destroy you. So, you do

have to find a way to

to know how to say I'm not going to do

that note in a political way or to

decide, well, I guess I'm on the fence

on that one. I'll take that one so I

don't have to take these two, which are

terrible.

That's that's something that we all have

to deal with. And the executives are

dealing with it in their own way in the

inverse. which notes am I gonna push

really hard and which notes are not that

important to me? And as a producer, I'm

on both sides of that. You know, as a

writer, I have to take notes. And as a

producer, I'm giving notes. If I'm

working on the big sick, all I'm doing

is giving notes. So, I become that

person that Camille and Emily might

hate. And they have to decide how much

to fight me on the notes. And only some

mutual respect allows that process to

not be toxic. But it is complicated and

it is not

something that you can avoid. You will

have bad moments where you realize I am

not working with the right person and

this is a nightmare and there's no way

out of it. Good luck.

For a fair amount of comedians,

they are interested in comedy due to

some

childhood injury or because they were an

outsider with other kids at school. And

I think most want to be heard. If you're

willing to stand up on a stage or star

in something, it's because you want

people to see you. And maybe when you

were young, you didn't feel seen.

That's what's most interesting about it

is the thing you want least in the world

is to be humiliated, but you're willing

to go through humiliation to get the

approval that you crave.

So it does draw a specific type of

person. Uh you know the athlete

personality

is very different than the comedian

personality. Their childhood experiences

are very different. When you see, you

know, one of the Yankees, you know,

probably when they were in high school,

they were legends in their school.

They're the one person that made it to

the major leagues. and probably all the

women like them. There's probably

plaques hanging up in the school, but

the comedian is uh often times

the weirdo in the school. Maybe someone

no one paid attention to, maybe someone

who was obnoxious, maybe someone who

caused trouble.

There probably aren't a lot of plaques

uh about the accomplishment of comedians

till they become super successful. So

they turn to art and creativity to work

through

these injuries. And that's probably true

of all artists. It's probably true of

songwriters and and painters. You know,

you often try to express yourself

because something is bothering you or

you're trying to

figure something out. And you know what

is standup comedy? It's standing on

stage trying to work through something.

try to trying to figure something out.

Trying to figure out why you are the way

you are.

I think all comedians are very

independent but also want to be part of

some sort of community. So for me, I

grew up watching Saturday Night Live and

Monty Python and Second City and seeing

the National Lampoon movies and hearing

about the magazine and Mad Magazine. And

it always felt like there were these

little groups of of what appeared to me

uh like friends who made comedy.

Standup comedy on one, you know, in one

way is is it something that you do

alone? You travel around the country

alone and you may have openers or maybe

you can bring openers with you or maybe

you're the opener for someone else and

that person's your friend. But the world

of of standup is a a community. You do

feel like when you show up at a comedy

club and there's a bunch of comedians

there, oh, we all speak the same

language. There's something that we all

understand

that makes us connect. So you might feel

at home very quickly at any comedy club

in the country hanging out with whoever

the comedians are that are there. It's

fun to go to places like Largo or the

comedy seller and feel like, oh, I'm

with my people. This is a comfortable,

supportive place. It it certainly has

its weirdness like any other community,

but there is something very,

you know, inviting about it. I think

comedians know how hard it is to do

comedy and have respect for people who

are great at it, but also respect for

people who just make the attempt.

And I think down deep we all think

you're damage like me. We understand

each other and we like it. You know, we

like that it it's a band of misfits.

When it comes to movies and and

television,

it is important to find likeminded

people uh that

that work well creatively. And when you

meet someone and you work well together,

you want to to continue that. So, uh,

when I was, uh, you know, young, I met

Ben Stiller and we worked on the Ben

Stiller Show and then we did

Heavyweights together and then we did

the Cable Guy together. And that's, you

know, one of the best parts of comedy is

that collaboration. It It's, you know,

it's really not fun to do it alone at

all. One of the reasons why I went back

to doing some stand-up comedy was I

really felt like I was just alone in a

room either writing or editing. And I

didn't like that I wasn't around people

uh most of the year around creative

people doing stuff. It just felt very

lonely.

I think I process most of life through

comedy.

And there are days where I think, is

this all

just a way to not be real and to not be

authentic? And every time you make a

joke, is it because you're uncomfortable

with the truth?

Is it a way of distancing yourself and

not truly feeling things? Uh, and

other times

I think it's a natural expression of joy

and uh, it's a way to process the

absurdity of our reality and it makes

people happy. It brings people together.

It helps people

connect and understand each other. So, I

I I I I go both ways, but that's

probably because too much of my life is

a pressure to figure out how to be

funny. Most people don't have to think

about it very much or be funny very

much. So, I'm sure my brain is all

screwed up because it's always trying to

think about how to look at something in

a funny way. And especially at this

moment when uh the world is uh

getting more and more screwed up and we

all have a sense that things have gone

off the rails.

There is a part of me that wonders

if it's time for us all to be a little

more serious about what hap what's

happening

before we die. You know, do we need

jokes about global warming or do we need

to just all make some sacrifices

so that it doesn't happen and our

grandkids don't fry? Uh, or do we need

satire and humor as a way to communicate

to people that we are headed down a bad

road and uh if not us uh our our

children and children's children are

going to pay a terrible price. And I

don't really have an answer for it. I go

back and forth. You know, sometimes I

can laugh at a Trump bit that a late

night uh comedian does and another time

I think I I I can't laugh about this at

all. You know, we we we got real

problems and people are getting hurt and

our government's not working properly.

Uh and uh maybe we should just focus on

getting serious about what to do. So I I

don't really have an answer for it. Uh,

but I still have rent to pay. So, I I'll

lean on the comedy side of things

until college is paid for.

So, I've made a lot of uh, you know,

pilots over the years for shows and a

lot of them didn't go and some of them,

you know, were pretty good or had good

ideas behind them and and that is a

heartbreaking part of the business

because it's it's the death of

potential. So, we did a a show called

North Hollywood, and it was about

aspiring actors and actresses who live

in North Hollywood, and it starred Amy

Polar, and her day job was that she was

Judge Reinhold's assistant. And she

wanted to be an actress, Jason Seagull,

uh, who wanted to be an actor, and his

day job was that he played Frankenstein

on the Universal Studios tour. and his

supervisor was Adam McCay by the way and

Kevin Hart who was a aspiring comedian

who had a semi-racist beer commercial

running so he was the only one who had

money and we shot it uh for ABC

and it was a little experimental

and none of those people you know were

hot at the moment

and we did a table read and it was maybe

the best table we read I've ever had in

my entire career. But while we were

making it,

ABC decided they didn't want to do new

edgy experimental

comedy. They wanted to go back to the

days of Happy Days.

And we knew it was over. And that's

sometimes what happens is you work on

something, you're very passionate about

it, and the people that uh hired you to

do it suddenly go, "We don't want shows

like that. We're we're we're comfort

food this year. We're not trying to

break any ground. And then it's just

gone. And then it's gone. And all it is

is just a tape sitting in in my house.

And you think, "Oh, wow. It would have

been nice to do a TV show uh with with

Kevin Hart 15 years ago and to get to do

a series uh with all those people and

Amy Polar, who was always my favorite of

all time." And uh we didn't we didn't

get to to do it. And that's just how how

it works. And then you just make another

one. Then the next year I made a

a another pilot about a parole officer

and John Favro directed it. That didn't

go either. But you do have to handle it

and and move on because even your

favorite things sometimes wind up in a

drawer and no one ever sees them. I'll

show you though if you want to see it

cuz I still have it.

The weird thing about show business is

sometimes you make something that you

know is great and not a lot of people go

to see it or want to see it. And

sometimes you make things that you know

aren't that good and everybody wants to

see it. And other times you make

something that's very specific and it's

small. But you know the people who love

it, it's their favorite thing they've

ever seen in their entire life. And so

you have to decide for yourself how you

feel about all of that. There are great

bands that don't sell a lot of records.

We all have a band and we love that band

especially for the fact that they sell

2,000 records. That might be our

favorite part of them is that we have

this very intimate relationship with

this band and uh they're not uh you know

Beyonce they're not reaching the earth

but quietly we might think oh my god

who's gerdu is so much better than

everybody else or the replacements or

you know whoever your favorite band is

that uh you know didn't become Justin

Timberlake. So,

it is I always think of it like records.

How many records do you do you need to

sell? I uh I always like uh Elvis

Castello more than Rick Ashley.

That's just that's just how I felt. I

like Rick Ashley. I I like him, but I I

never felt like you needed to sell 20

million records to be incredible and to

change my life. Uh and I think the same

is true for comedy and movies and and

TV. There are TV shows no one watches

that I watch. And I think that's way

better than than the big one everyone

talks about.

My main uh advice generally is uh you

know you you just have to take the

initiative and create something for

people to see.

The second is you have to understand

that even though

there are so many people who want to get

into the industry and want to get into

comedy that almost everybody sucks.

Literally almost everyone is terrible.

So the fact that there's more

opportunities hasn't really increased

how many people are brilliant at this.

So if you are great, it is all going to

work out. You don't know if you're great

till you train yourself and work hard

and put in the time. And there are

plenty of people that do put in the

time. And 15 years later, they might

look in a mirror and go, I'm terrible at

this. It's like if I tried to become a

piano player, I could put in the next 15

years. And uh I am not going to be Harry

Kik Jr. And that happens to many people.

But if you want to take that risk and

put in that time to see if you have the

talent to see if uh everything can come

together

at the end of that road, if you are

great, they will find you. It it will it

will it will work out. There are no

brilliantly funny, normal, hardworking,

productive people in comedy who are

sitting home starving.

There's a lot of people who are terrible

making a fortune. That's that's just the

truth of it. So,

you always can uh take heart in that.

So, if you think how many great comedy

movies did I see this year,

let's let's exaggerate.

Five, but it's probably two. Might be

zero. So there's clearly a need for

people to make great comedy films. Uh

and no matter how many people are trying

to get into it, most people are not

pulling it off. So if you're strong,

they desperately need you. So people get

very obsessed with how would I get

anyone to read my script? How am I going

to get in the door? That's not going to

be the hard part. The hard part is

having the good script or the good short

film or whatever you do to show the

person once the door opens a crack and

someone says I will read something or I

will look at something. So always

prepare for that moment and don't worry

about the other part. The other part

tends to happen just because uh there's

so much need for people who are good at

In this day and age, in this internet

era, there really is

uh no reason to not make things because

you can afford to make things. Uh

there's also a way for people to see

things. And it used to be that if you

had a, you know, a short you made, there

wasn't really a a way to get it in front

of people or it was a huge pain in the

ass to get people to watch it. So, for

instance, when Ben Stiller was young, he

did a Broadway show and he was working

with John Mahoney and he made a a funny

comedy short with his own money and it

was a parody of Morren Scarces The Color

of Money. And instead of being about

pool, it was about bowling hustlers.

Now, nobody knew who Ben was at the

time.

So, he had no way to really get it to

people. So, what he did is he waited in

the lobby at NBC for anyone who worked

at Saturday Night Live to walk by. And

then one day,

John Levitz was walking by and he walked

up to John Levitz and and he said, "Hey,

I made this short film. Would would you

show this to Lauren?"

And

he said, "Okay." You know what I would

have said? Uh, no. I don't want to get

sued. Well, I don't know who you are.

There could be anthrax on this. But uh

but John Levitz uh he did he he brought

upstairs and showed people and it got to

Lauren and they called Ben and they

said, "Okay, we're going to air it this

Saturday.

You need to come here and trim a little

time out of it." And Ben

trimmed some time out. They aired it on

Saturday Night Live and at some point

later they asked him to join the cast

and and that's how he got his foot in

that particular door. These days you you

can make a a short put it on Funny or

Die who who I work with or on YouTube or

Vimeo and send somebody a link. So now

it's much easier. You don't have to get

them to open the mail and look at the

tape and you know it's it's all very

simple and making a short doesn't cost

that much money. You can find a way to

make it cost money but it doesn't have

to cost money and all you really need to

get someone to do is click on a link to

see it. There's a few things I've done

that I think have been helpful. uh you

know, one is I worked very hard and I

cared a lot and I I love comedy more

than anything and and so I have a great

passion for it and I think that is one

of the reasons why my career has gone

reasonably well is because I I want to

challenge myself. I I want to grow. I

I'd like to figure out what else I I can

do that I haven't done before. So I I

certainly encourage people to uh take

that risk and and find the courage to

sit down and express yourself

uh fully and believe in your ability to

pull something like that off because if

you don't have the courage to do it,

you're never going to just make swingers

with your friends or or clerks or tiny

furniture. uh you know it does require a

massive leap into the unknown and

they'll never be a logical reason to do

it uh other than madness.

All right, you've done it. You've

finished my master class.

Now go sit your ass down and write a

goddamn joke.

Nothing happens if you don't write that

joke. What do you think? I'm going to

write the joke for you. Jesus Christ.

Writing [ __ ] jokes. I get paid a lot

of money to write jokes.

I'll tell you how to do it. I'm not

going to [ __ ] do it for you. I don't

even know you.